Thanks for the video! Your previous video with heavy load tests to me shows that in specific circumstances there are some benefits but otherwise not much more power in day to day. I think the HO2.5 is the real game changer in that it gives you light weight, compact and high power which is what I use the M12 tools for.
Not disagreeing this isn’t the end all of tests. A few RUclipsrs including torque test channel have done scientific tests and any improvements at all are yet to be seen on the 5.0. 2.5 may have slight benefits over 3.0 but not huge. Would love to see a test that proves this wrong Until there’s a lithium stack or some creative way to leverage 21700 these are pretty underwhelming or straight lies
When you are hitting the limits of the 18650 batteries, high output will show improvements. This should only happen in near stall scenario's where the motor needs to put 2-3x the current but can't because the battery says no due to a temperature limit.
@Dylan Dempsey High output is seen as 21700 but really what they are are cells that can do significantly higher current then similar cells without significant adverse degradation.
@@cndjonno no high output is a marketing term created by Milwaukee. I know we all want these batteries to be like all the other high output batteries they released but they are not. A bad home made 21700 M12 battery even performs better than this.
My fuel m12 hackzall with the h0 shows noticeable performance. It discharges consistent currents under loads and the battery lasts wayyy longer. It definitely works in real world applications. I put it on my copper cutter and the cutter works the same. The benefit though is that the battery lasts longer. I recommed this 10/10
What they need is actually a 21700 battery, but we won’t be seeing one probably in the distant future. Not sure if the current design can fit 21700 cells. I have seen some modifications…I really was hoping for something on that cut off tool, but I think I can finally pack it and sell it. I simply don’t use it as much as I’d like to.
You’d only be able to fit one, maybe two, cells in the handle. So it would have to have some of the cells in a box underneath, like the larger current M12 batteries. I think the highest current 21700 cells are 50A, and the highest current 18650 are 40A, so have six 18650 cells could give you a higher max current than three 21700. One important caveat: I assume that Milwaukee tests batteries thoroughly and has high standards for robustness and lifespan. It’s quite possible that the very high current batteries don’t meet their standards.
@@ProxyFinal that's only the M18 3.0 CP (using 21700s) with a 2 year warranty. All CP M12/M18 packs are 2 years. CP batteries aren't expected to last as long because they're hit at their peak discharge rate more often and that reduces average cycle life. All XC packs (18650 or 21700, M18/M12) are 3 years.
Oh I missed this video on the M12 HO--saw the load test one but not this real-world one. While we're not looking at anything spectacular, a few things to note: -The 2.5 HO is a 3-cell battery and it beats the CP 3.0 in pretty much every test; but more importantly it comes close to the 6.0 in most of the tests. It's very likely it would be at the same level of a XC 3.0 or 4.0, which is pretty much exactly where Milwaukee claimed it would be. The advantage is, you're getting 6-cell power, with 3-cell weight and size, which is a big deal given M12 is already valued by many for it's compactness. Being able to make the tool more powerful without having to clip in a big battery could be seen as a real advantage for some people/uses/tools. -The 5.0 HO, even if it's not a huge difference, is still the top battery every time. Milwaukee's claim here is that it's the most powerful M12, so that checks; but, also it should give more cuts/holes/etc. (do more work under load) than any other battery. So if you were to repeatedly cut rebar until the battery ran down, you should not only get through the same amount of cuts faster, but get more cuts than the 6.0 before running down. This wasn't tested here but there's really no reason to believe it's not true given everything else checks out. -The one claim I think is a bit murky though is the bit about temperature. The problem with percentages and temperature is you can't take Farenheit (or Celsius) degree numbers and use the percentages on them...that's not how thermal energy works. E.g. 25C is *not* "25% hotter" than 20C, for example. This can be seen if you change these same numbers to Farenheit. 25C is 77F and 20C is 68F, but if you add "25%" to the Farenheight degree *number* of 68, you don't get 77, you get 85 (which is 29C). If you actually changed in *thermal energy* by 25% from 20C/68F the numbers would be equivalent when converted--i.e. applying percentages to temperature numbers doesn't equate to that change in thermal energy, it's just giving you some nonsense number lol. This is rather sneaky by Milwaukee because they are using the ol' "temperatures and percentages" claim which doesn't work the way people think it does. Anyway these are probably no reason to "upgrade" if you have a healthy supply of existing M12 batteries but the 2.5 could be key if you want the most power with the lightest weight. Also for those that don't already have 6.0s, they're better off just buying the 5.0 batteries now for most cases...other than perhaps lights where the 6.0 will probably last longer. Anyway great video once again! :)
Yep I agree, they defiantly provide the highest power and boost performance. But probably not worth running out and upgrading if your using the 3.0 cp and 6.0 XC. Yeah I agree the thermal numbers are sneaky. Thanks!
Have you considered doing an update with some of the newer M12 fuel tools? TTC did a test showing that the 5.0 HO is head and shoulders above all the other batteries in the new stubby impact wrench, and anecdotally my M12 Fuel Vacuum works way better with the HO batteries... Though if i use the 2.5 instead of the 5.0 the battery will overheat and shut off if i run it too long at once Edit: just heard the part at the end of the video about the vacuum haha
Even when using the rotary tool with the larger 5ah and 6ah battery it still feel a billion times more handy/agile than having to deal with a corded one
I wonder if the motors in these tools are too old to take advantage of the new batteries. The rotary too, cutoff tool, and die grinder always come in behind when tested against similar newer products.
Thanks for this! Every test so far shows almost no gains over the 6.0. We've waited a long time for M12 HO so this is very disappointing, especially since they're marketed as 25% more powerful.
I think the gains will be seen in things like the 13mm hammer drill and circular saw. I occasionally hit the battery thermal cut out with these so I'm hoping it helps there too.
@@procrastinator1842maybe, for a battery that promises 25% more power we've seen zero on about 10 tools so far. Not sure we're seeing it worth its super high price tag let alone upgrading whatsoever. Very disappointed on something I've been eagerly awaiting a long time for
@@dylandempsey6103 tbh the tests in this video are not very scienticious. I have a custom HO CP battery with 3x Samsung 20S cells, similar to what the milwaukee HO cells use, and the cut off tool is MUCH better under load. Like...night and day better. I also think that the new generation tools will be designed to output more. So stay tuned I guess...
Interesting to see the tests, but I think to get valuable data you would need to somehow monitor the power being drawn by the tool when using each of the battery packs. It could be that you are hitting the limit of the tool power and so the high output battery won't have any effect other than possibly being able to use the tool for longer, but the tool performance cannot go beyond the power capability of the motor/controller irrespective of the battery used.
Yep it seem like the tools were already at max amp draw before the voltage drop really made any impact. I’m hoping to build some adapters so amp draw and voltage drop can be monitored under load. Really can’t wait to get the drill dyno going so a constant load can be applied.
Thank you for your time and presentation. I am not buying any of these new high output m12 batteries. I am just sticking with 6.0 and/or the cp 3.0. This is just Milwaukee trying to make some more $$ off us...can i say they are getting greedy?
They are a business aren't they? Also, they want new customers. A lot of people have no 12v tools and this drives them to the store. It's not like they created a new 12v system. Do you really want them to not try making changes? By the way, corded tools worked. Think that's what everyone should have stayed with forever?
@@alfredbernal8603 i have nearly all Dewalt and a few Festool and Bosch tools. I like having Dewalt because there's a service center that's walking distance away and has been there for 20 years.
Most everything I’ve seen. The m12 battery BMS are in the tools them selfs so the only real gain in performance comes from the ability the maintain a higher voltage. They will never draw more amps because plugging in a 1.5cp with cells that have a max amp of 20A draw to a tool that draws 30A like the Samsung 20S in the HO allows will damage that cells
0:46 I think you misunderstood the claims they were making, Milwaukee admits that the compact batteries don't give tools the same amount of power, and they say the xc batteries provide more power/torque (this is what the pamphlet at home Depot says) the idea behind the battery you tested was that it provides the same increase the xc batteries do while still being a compact, that's what this test actually proved You even say in the video "this tool doesn't perform well with the 1.5 ah" which is a compact battery, that's why this is a high output compact battery 🤦♂️
Also the tools you tested didn't have a high amp draw, which only a few M12 tools do, this battery and the xc batteries would see a benefit on either a saw or an impact wrench
@@ragdolltrucking 5.0s show no real gains over the 6.0 on impact wrenches. Already been tested, 6.0 actually edges out the 5.0 over time, though still not enough to put it outside a MoE. 2.5s should show some gains over a 1.5/2.0/3.0, because it's a 1P battery and you need all the amps you can get out of 3 cells. But the XC 5.0 is mostly a flop as 99.5% of the M12 platform has no real world use for a 50A CDR battery, and by the time you even realize those benefits you should've been using an M18 tool anyways. If you're spending $120 on those when a 6.0 is easily had for half that and still trying to justify them then you're suffering from sunk cost. No Home Depot pamphlet will change that fact either. Lol.
@@jaywelker5566 the tools don't require any more amperage then the 6.0 provides, the compact high output IS an improvement over the ordinary compact batteries, Milwaukee likely only made the 5.0 because they make an xc version using the cells from each of the compact batteries (the xc 3 uses compact 1.5 cells, the xc 4 uses compact 2.0 cells etc)
Just found your channel. Love your data and testing. Hope you get big like PF and TTC.
Thanks! Yeah hopefully at some point, I just would like to break even lol.
Thanks for the video! Your previous video with heavy load tests to me shows that in specific circumstances there are some benefits but otherwise not much more power in day to day. I think the HO2.5 is the real game changer in that it gives you light weight, compact and high power which is what I use the M12 tools for.
Not disagreeing this isn’t the end all of tests. A few RUclipsrs including torque test channel have done scientific tests and any improvements at all are yet to be seen on the 5.0. 2.5 may have slight benefits over 3.0 but not huge. Would love to see a test that proves this wrong Until there’s a lithium stack or some creative way to leverage 21700 these are pretty underwhelming or straight lies
When you are hitting the limits of the 18650 batteries, high output will show improvements. This should only happen in near stall scenario's where the motor needs to put 2-3x the current but can't because the battery says no due to a temperature limit.
@@cndjonno maybe. Yet to be seen 😕. We’re talking double the cost of the 6.0. Real HO batteries use 21700, these still use 18650
@Dylan Dempsey High output is seen as 21700 but really what they are are cells that can do significantly higher current then similar cells without significant adverse degradation.
@@cndjonno no high output is a marketing term created by Milwaukee. I know we all want these batteries to be like all the other high output batteries they released but they are not. A bad home made 21700 M12 battery even performs better than this.
I wasn't expecting these to do much. They need to just put 1 21700 in the stem of the battery and another 1 or 2 in the base.
The 5.0 ho battery was the best in every test and often the 2.5 tied the 6.0. How did you come to the conclusion that there is no performance gain?
With the Die Grinder being the only Fuel tool, it’s the only one I’d expect to see any real difference on
My fuel m12 hackzall with the h0 shows noticeable performance. It discharges consistent currents under loads and the battery lasts wayyy longer. It definitely works in real world applications. I put it on my copper cutter and the cutter works the same. The benefit though is that the battery lasts longer. I recommed this 10/10
Thanks for the info! It was interesting to see the performance difference on the drill dyno.
What they need is actually a 21700 battery, but we won’t be seeing one probably in the distant future. Not sure if the current design can fit 21700 cells. I have seen some modifications…I really was hoping for something on that cut off tool, but I think I can finally pack it and sell it. I simply don’t use it as much as I’d like to.
You’d only be able to fit one, maybe two, cells in the handle. So it would have to have some of the cells in a box underneath, like the larger current M12 batteries.
I think the highest current 21700 cells are 50A, and the highest current 18650 are 40A, so have six 18650 cells could give you a higher max current than three 21700.
One important caveat: I assume that Milwaukee tests batteries thoroughly and has high standards for robustness and lifespan. It’s quite possible that the very high current batteries don’t meet their standards.
@@gf2e probably explains why the warranty for batteries with 21700 cells are not as extensive?
@@ProxyFinal that's only the M18 3.0 CP (using 21700s) with a 2 year warranty. All CP M12/M18 packs are 2 years. CP batteries aren't expected to last as long because they're hit at their peak discharge rate more often and that reduces average cycle life.
All XC packs (18650 or 21700, M18/M12) are 3 years.
Oh I missed this video on the M12 HO--saw the load test one but not this real-world one. While we're not looking at anything spectacular, a few things to note:
-The 2.5 HO is a 3-cell battery and it beats the CP 3.0 in pretty much every test; but more importantly it comes close to the 6.0 in most of the tests. It's very likely it would be at the same level of a XC 3.0 or 4.0, which is pretty much exactly where Milwaukee claimed it would be. The advantage is, you're getting 6-cell power, with 3-cell weight and size, which is a big deal given M12 is already valued by many for it's compactness. Being able to make the tool more powerful without having to clip in a big battery could be seen as a real advantage for some people/uses/tools.
-The 5.0 HO, even if it's not a huge difference, is still the top battery every time. Milwaukee's claim here is that it's the most powerful M12, so that checks; but, also it should give more cuts/holes/etc. (do more work under load) than any other battery. So if you were to repeatedly cut rebar until the battery ran down, you should not only get through the same amount of cuts faster, but get more cuts than the 6.0 before running down. This wasn't tested here but there's really no reason to believe it's not true given everything else checks out.
-The one claim I think is a bit murky though is the bit about temperature. The problem with percentages and temperature is you can't take Farenheit (or Celsius) degree numbers and use the percentages on them...that's not how thermal energy works. E.g. 25C is *not* "25% hotter" than 20C, for example. This can be seen if you change these same numbers to Farenheit. 25C is 77F and 20C is 68F, but if you add "25%" to the Farenheight degree *number* of 68, you don't get 77, you get 85 (which is 29C). If you actually changed in *thermal energy* by 25% from 20C/68F the numbers would be equivalent when converted--i.e. applying percentages to temperature numbers doesn't equate to that change in thermal energy, it's just giving you some nonsense number lol. This is rather sneaky by Milwaukee because they are using the ol' "temperatures and percentages" claim which doesn't work the way people think it does.
Anyway these are probably no reason to "upgrade" if you have a healthy supply of existing M12 batteries but the 2.5 could be key if you want the most power with the lightest weight. Also for those that don't already have 6.0s, they're better off just buying the 5.0 batteries now for most cases...other than perhaps lights where the 6.0 will probably last longer. Anyway great video once again! :)
Yep I agree, they defiantly provide the highest power and boost performance. But probably not worth running out and upgrading if your using the 3.0 cp and 6.0 XC.
Yeah I agree the thermal numbers are sneaky.
Thanks!
Have you considered doing an update with some of the newer M12 fuel tools? TTC did a test showing that the 5.0 HO is head and shoulders above all the other batteries in the new stubby impact wrench, and anecdotally my M12 Fuel Vacuum works way better with the HO batteries... Though if i use the 2.5 instead of the 5.0 the battery will overheat and shut off if i run it too long at once
Edit: just heard the part at the end of the video about the vacuum haha
Even when using the rotary tool with the larger 5ah and 6ah battery it still feel a billion times more handy/agile than having to deal with a corded one
I wonder if the motors in these tools are too old to take advantage of the new batteries. The rotary too, cutoff tool, and die grinder always come in behind when tested against similar newer products.
Yeah I believe you are right, most of them need to be updated. The new Dewalt cutoff tool makes the M12 look like a toy,.
would like to see the 5.0 with the hammer drill
Please see ruclips.net/video/L3ExNWx0ttY/видео.html
Thanks for this! Every test so far shows almost no gains over the 6.0. We've waited a long time for M12 HO so this is very disappointing, especially since they're marketed as 25% more powerful.
I think the gains will be seen in things like the 13mm hammer drill and circular saw. I occasionally hit the battery thermal cut out with these so I'm hoping it helps there too.
@@procrastinator1842maybe, for a battery that promises 25% more power we've seen zero on about 10 tools so far. Not sure we're seeing it worth its super high price tag let alone upgrading whatsoever. Very disappointed on something I've been eagerly awaiting a long time for
@@dylandempsey6103 this isn't a great test. This is why Project Farm doesn't test tools while handholding them. Gotta take out human error
@@veganpotterthevegan not looking at one test, all tests are showing no improvements across RUclips and the internet. Scientific or qualitative.
@@dylandempsey6103 tbh the tests in this video are not very scienticious. I have a custom HO CP battery with 3x Samsung 20S cells, similar to what the milwaukee HO cells use, and the cut off tool is MUCH better under load. Like...night and day better.
I also think that the new generation tools will be designed to output more. So stay tuned I guess...
How about the gen 3 impact and drill any boost performance with those tools
Hope to test in a few weeks, working on building a drill dyno for accurate data right now.
Interesting to see the tests, but I think to get valuable data you would need to somehow monitor the power being drawn by the tool when using each of the battery packs. It could be that you are hitting the limit of the tool power and so the high output battery won't have any effect other than possibly being able to use the tool for longer, but the tool performance cannot go beyond the power capability of the motor/controller irrespective of the battery used.
Yep it seem like the tools were already at max amp draw before the voltage drop really made any impact.
I’m hoping to build some adapters so amp draw and voltage drop can be monitored under load.
Really can’t wait to get the drill dyno going so a constant load can be applied.
Thank you for your time and presentation. I am not buying any of these new high output m12 batteries. I am just sticking with 6.0 and/or the cp 3.0. This is just Milwaukee trying to make some more $$ off us...can i say they are getting greedy?
They are a business aren't they? Also, they want new customers. A lot of people have no 12v tools and this drives them to the store. It's not like they created a new 12v system. Do you really want them to not try making changes? By the way, corded tools worked. Think that's what everyone should have stayed with forever?
@@veganpotterthevegan of course I like changes that actually work for the better..sounds like you work for Milwaukee?
@@alfredbernal8603 no, I barely own any Milwaukee tools. At least you're bad at making assumptions
@@alfredbernal8603 i have nearly all Dewalt and a few Festool and Bosch tools. I like having Dewalt because there's a service center that's walking distance away and has been there for 20 years.
@@veganpotterthevegan awesome Friend!
Would love to see on the new impact and the hammer drill m12 gen3
Hopefully in a few months, working on a dyno for drills.
Most everything I’ve seen. The m12 battery BMS are in the tools them selfs so the only real gain in performance comes from the ability the maintain a higher voltage. They will never draw more amps because plugging in a 1.5cp with cells that have a max amp of 20A draw to a tool that draws 30A like the Samsung 20S in the HO allows will damage that cells
Does the die grinder bog down less when using the new 5.0 HO battery compared to the 6.0 XC battery?
No I didn’t see a difference.
I’ll stick with what I have which is all sizes except 3.0 compact
0:46 I think you misunderstood the claims they were making, Milwaukee admits that the compact batteries don't give tools the same amount of power, and they say the xc batteries provide more power/torque (this is what the pamphlet at home Depot says) the idea behind the battery you tested was that it provides the same increase the xc batteries do while still being a compact, that's what this test actually proved
You even say in the video "this tool doesn't perform well with the 1.5 ah" which is a compact battery, that's why this is a high output compact battery 🤦♂️
Also the tools you tested didn't have a high amp draw, which only a few M12 tools do, this battery and the xc batteries would see a benefit on either a saw or an impact wrench
@@ragdolltrucking 5.0s show no real gains over the 6.0 on impact wrenches. Already been tested, 6.0 actually edges out the 5.0 over time, though still not enough to put it outside a MoE.
2.5s should show some gains over a 1.5/2.0/3.0, because it's a 1P battery and you need all the amps you can get out of 3 cells. But the XC 5.0 is mostly a flop as 99.5% of the M12 platform has no real world use for a 50A CDR battery, and by the time you even realize those benefits you should've been using an M18 tool anyways.
If you're spending $120 on those when a 6.0 is easily had for half that and still trying to justify them then you're suffering from sunk cost. No Home Depot pamphlet will change that fact either. Lol.
@@jaywelker5566 the tools don't require any more amperage then the 6.0 provides, the compact high output IS an improvement over the ordinary compact batteries, Milwaukee likely only made the 5.0 because they make an xc version using the cells from each of the compact batteries (the xc 3 uses compact 1.5 cells, the xc 4 uses compact 2.0 cells etc)
if they were 21700 cells they would be great
I'm happy with my CP 3.0, XC 4.0 and XC 6.0. I think I'll stick with those and save me some cash...
Nice video. Surprised you were able to cut anything with that die grinder without overheating it 20 times. Such a piece of junk.
Thanks! Lol o it did cut out a few times, I cut that out to keep the time fair. Overall it acts the same, very poor!