Why WARCROW Is The MOST IMPORTANT New Wargame
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- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2023
- This video was probably too long, but this needs to be covered.
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My name is Dek. I'm a designer, entrepreneur and gamer from the Bay Area. My biggest motivation and aspiration is absolutely building a great community around tabletop wargaming and RPG's. Join me in pushing the culture forward, and having a good ol' time doin' it.
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As long as the Orcs are amazing and the barbarians look like Conan, I am in. I am a simple man. I just want to crush my enemies.
Looking forward to use the minis to start a frostgrave
game. the starting box seems perfect for it
So shocked that you dont have more views. Keep up the great work!
Great Vid Derek! You’ve brought a light towards Warcrow that I didn’t realize I would have. Looking forward to see where CB takes it :)
Love your take, and have to say I agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly. Thank you for making this video! Also, crazy high production values, and killer jacket!
Warcrow adventures has some of the most awesome miniatures I’ve ever seen. I couldn’t back the project because life got in the way, but I will be picking up some individual miniatures when the wargame comes out!
I did back TAG raid though and can’t wait for those minis!
Looking forward to seeing more on this game as more info gets released. Also have my eye on the moonstone miniatures game :s.
Love the massive lighthouse bro. That can be a fantasy terrain piece to use
I'm cautiously looking forward to knowing more of it.
I threw a buck into the KS for Warcrow Adventures because I wanted to keep tabs on what they were doing, but this is what I was really waiting for. I can't wait to see what they come up with for this!
Thanks Chris! I'm super stoked, too!
I knew I was going to want to play the bad guys faction when this eventually came out. So this was a good buy for me.
I really like your enthusiasm about this and your take on the culture is correct, imo. I was not impressed by Warcrow when it was announced, I didn't feel it departed strongly enough (or at all really) from the usual fantasy tropes. That said, as you point out, maybe it is not really for me. If CB are able to meaningfully tap into the new generation of DnD players that are much more diverse than previous generations it could be a massive game changer for them. I don't honestly imagine they will, just because tabletop wargaming is so different from ttrpgs, but I certainly hope they can. I would love to see more women and girls at my lfgs and I would 100% get into Warcrow if it meant I would see a wider range of players across the table from me.
I couldn't agree more with everything you've said as well as Dek's entire video. So insightful and makes me think. So much RUclips junk is clickbait and melodrama. I never find that Dek is either of those. Love it. Keep up the amazing work Dek. I'm subscribed and love your vids.
Thanks as always, Dio, Mark! T______________________T
Awesome vid, if Warcrow can do larger scale games like AoS, I’ll definitely keep an eye out for it. Looks very promising.
Great video! I spent the last days trying to figure out what to play since I am looking for a good FantasyGame. It is tough... as you said. Most games are either army size with high model counts (Conquest, AoS, TOW, KOW etc.), have a pretty restrictive IP (LTOR) that limits creativity when painting (most people paint Gandalf as Gandalf like in the movies i.e.), have sub-par rules (AoS) or are over-simplified Skirmishers like Warcry which limits long term playability. There is nothing like Infinity for Fantasy Fans, so I am really hyped for Warcrow right now. The Minis look great, CORVUS BELLI knows how to write engaging and fun rulesets, the universe is classic fantasy with some little fun twists and I just hope that they can fill that niche that exists in the wargaming world. I am totally here for it!
Always a pleasure to hear Wrath of Kings get a mention. My play group is small but we know when we have a gem on our hands.
The ride-or-die energy is strong, I respect it! I won't lie, not being a fantasy fan, Warcrow exists in a 'this mini might be cool to have' territory for me depending on what they release, but I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how they expand on their factions. CB have proven themselves with Infinity that they have a strong sense of fashion and outfit design, so if any minis could be recontextulaised as modern-era fashionistas I'd definitely be listening.
LOLLL Thanks as always Caster. I come in that hot, huh? Ride-er-dye XD
Seeing those miniatures for WarCrow made me so happy!!!!!!! 🙂😲😲😲😲🤩🤩🤩
Great and accurate analysis!
Thanks as always, J!
Your points are great, especially the talk about GW being more faceless and less about the community, and they've stated before they're just a miniatures company and they couldn't care a hoot about people.
Once the community started ripping on various creators - Games Workshops response was to make them anonymous. This also, for them, ensured they weren't creating "celebrities" who would then just go off and do their own thing. (as Duncan did) I mean I get it - but I also understand WHY they did this.
I think you're right that this game isn't specifically aimed at Infinity players. It doesn't feel like it. I think there's a lot of people who like CB's minis and how they run their shop, but just don't dig Infinity for whatever reason. I hope this is a huge untapped market and we'll see a bunch of articles from mainstream hobby sources saying: "Is Warcrow going to take the top spot from AOS?"
So excited for this game!
HELLLLL YEAAHHH !!
really hope this game takes off. will use the minis for dnd/ frostgrave for sure :)
The skin changer Polar Bear man will lead the Northern Tribes to victory.
oh an atlatl, that's a weapon you don't see too often!
That Bard is great. So funny.
I am interested but admittedly I am more into sci fi, so I’m interested to see where this goes, how good the models are, and just how good it feels to win one of these games but after that there’s a good chance I could save up the money for at least a good intro into the game.
Thanks Knighter! Yeah, it's a completely different audience than Infinity. I am wondering if there will actually be any overlap in the end. Trying to achieve teh overlap is a short term goal, right? Make sales. But actually the long term goal of a new audience is not served by the overlap with Infinity. It's actually a really ambitious project, and I don't know if that's clear at face value.
great take.
I'm interested to see where this game system lands and what it's all about.
For sure. A lot's still up in the air. I'm choosing to suspend disbelief about the execution for a while.
I don't think they will attract the infinity community. The infinity community is very tournament driven and very hardcore. As a infinity player my mind can't process more games. But that is a good thing. Infinity is like a punch to the face to get into. Very hard. If you are not prepared to lose every game you will not stay in the game.
Excellent and appreciated content!
New to the channel, got a like and subscribe out of me.
More on the cultural evolution and impact of a variety of wargames very welcome.
Cheers!
16:50 "Maybe you are a keyboard warrior"
Me: Glances up from the comment he's typing, makes note to make an additional comment pointing out this coincidence.
LOL thanks as always, dude
Time to make more content about this haha
Blorean warhammer here. You had me at "for the culture". Subbed.
The Infinity Operation Boxes are 7 models per side and self contained. They could make a Warcrow starter that is similar - the main game is 4x4, but the starter has you playing on a smaller, provided, mat with your smaller forces.
Wait. A faction made up of elves and dwarves working together? Now I'm interested.
Haha yes! Thanks Albert! And humans!
I never thought I'd fight beside an Elf.
Maths!
2 + 2 + .........................................................+2
I was excited when this game was announced. It's usually cool to get a new war game. But I still have absolutely no idea what this game is supposed to be. The more board game like approach is nothing new. The setting seems generic at a glance even if there is more to it. I know very little about the factions or how they look or play. It feels like we should have a better idea as a community as to what this game even is by now.
looks heavy to play
From memory the only Table Top Wargame (TTW) I remember getting some traction with female players was Malifaux and I think that was down to the Steampunk Aesthetic which was big around the time of its initial release, and the variety of the characters that could be played from Necromancers to Showgirls. Nothing since has been able to capture that audience IMO and as Malifuax's narrative progressed into its 3rd edition and the Steampunk craze waned the female players moved away from the system into other things.
I'd like to hope that you're right about Warcrow being able to bring in some new blood to TTW's that would be really welcome but I think the reason that RPG's in particular have taken off with female players in the last decade has to do with the spotlight RPG's got from Stranger Things and that RPG's encourage a lot of individual creativity both in character creation and how played stories progress. Individual creativity is a big draw to female gamers and its partly the reason why MMO's which have deep and detailed character creation systems have an almost 50-50 split of male to female players. I'm not sure Warcrow or any Wargame in the traditional sense can make use of that creative space especially when it comes to fielding balanced armies against one another which requires a more rigid framework for the system to work, you cant just invent a character or army unit with all their stats and abilities and plug it into a system built for competitive play. Frostgrave and Stargrave are the exceptions here but they are very much built from the ground up as narrative experiences to be played in a campaign and not for competitive games.
Finally I'd like to hope that the diversity of characters that have been shown in Warcrow Adventures is something positive that will carry over to the Warcrow wargame, however, there's a risk that any diversity will alienate a portion of the traditional playerbase that the game will initially need to gain traction. Wargaming is still a majority male hobby and like it or not there's allot of players out there who see any embracing of diversity in a setting as an attack of their traditional space, the recent backlash when Battletech got the official collection of stories from LGBT+ authors is a sad example of what can happen. I've been on the Internet long enough that I can see certain reactionary bad actors dubbing the game "Wokecrow" and trying to strangle the game at birth. I really hope I'm wrong about that but recent history has made me cynical.
Thank you so much, Green, for taking the time to listen to my message, and really think about it. I wouldn't cover a topic like this if I cared about my channel making money--I cover it because I think it's super important, and every rockstar out there like you makes a huge difference to the culture.
Honestly, I don't know if Warcrow will be able to achieve it, but I know that it's a big gamble from CB to try and achieve it, and I have to support the effort.
Malifaux not only has the steampunk aesthetic going for it, but at least half or more of the heroes ("masters") are women.
You'd do more for the "importance" of this game by just sticking to the positives of the world and mechanics, and leaving out the virtue signaling. I love waifu games as much as anyone, but shoe horning it always comes off cringy. Women will always be a (general) minority in ttgs, as much as we wish they werent. A bunch of nerdy guys trying too hard to get them involved just seems desperate, which is a turn off to most.
Thanks Alohi!
I’d disagree about the value signaling. Actually Corvus Belli itself hasn’t been marketing the game this way. They’re just behaving like it’s normal.
I decided to talk about it because I perceive the work as important, but I also see that a lot of the audience is polarized on the game. I think this is actually by design.
WarCrow’s target audience is not infinity players, but Corvus Belli’s marketing primarily goes to existing infinity players. Corvus Belli is doing work to invite other types of gamers into the wargaming sphere, but how can they reach these other gamers if their core audience isn’t excited about it, and there aren’t many RUclipsrs who are willing to push?
I also think it’s not a bunch of desperate nerdy guys inviting women to play. Corvus Belli has legitimately assembled a diverse team to make and market this product. And if no company is going to proactively make space, then all the hobby will ever be will be sweaty space marines and titty armor space nuns.
A lot of wargamers came from 40K, and they’re defensive of their childhood memories. I understand and respect that, but even if Corvus Belli’s attempts aren’t perfect, and the cultural winds are not at their back, I will choose to support what I think is a positive change.
I would invite anyone who disagrees to also make videos. Every creator who supports non-GW war games by making content is a huge help.
But thanks for the feedback about pushing the positives of the game. I’ll work on that as mechanics and story updates are revealed
@CornerCase CB is doing that because they understand market sentiment, and they likely just have a more balance/nuanced perspective. Youre 100% virtue signalling, and thats fine. Everyone should push the boundaries they don't agree with... but context is always the biggest variable. If your ideology is antithetical to sociological and historical constants, it's bound to be unaffective and (historically speaking) counter-productive.. regardless of how good the intentions are
@CornerCase after all... the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
More visibility for women is excellent, but I believe that there are a lot of women in the hobby who are purposefully hiding from us men because it hasn't been a great environment for them in the past. I hope that continues to improve.
It's you they're hiding from, isn't it?
I don't know much about how the game plays, but the boardgameyness of "Adventures" was a huge turnoff. Propietary dice, a spinny wheel tracker thing, the bizarre unit cards. It all reeks of boargameiness. I really don't want anywhere near it.
And the miniatures, while cool I guess and technically well executed, are very boring and generic. They are very clearly digitally sculpted. There's no central theme or aesthetic. They look like literally any other of hundreds of generic fantasy D&D miniatures. It just seems like the most bland of the bland with board gameiness attached.
I don't see the hype. If the gameplay ends up being really good, that could be reason enough, but right now there's nothing really appealing standout or unique about this game and a few things that are extremely offputing (kickstarter, gimmicks and boardgame design, mediocre miniatures).
Ya, the app based board game looks meh and has been better implemented by games like Mansions of Madness.
Can't say the theme or aesthetic captures my attention like Infinity did/has. Which seems to be the common consensus with my gaming area. Not to mention resin is a huge turn off for a lot of people, myself and area included.
I just don't see where this fits in when compared to all the other fantasy skirmish games out now. Not to mention as far as originality and creativity goes, Maladum is right around the corner release wise which is far more intriguing.
For the culture of what?
Age of Sigmar is amazing, slaps all over 40K
I love the miniatures so far and the rules might be great. The thing I don’t like however is the usual race vs. race thing. I’m a bit sick of genocide games. Yes, there’s the Hegemony which is Human Dwarf Elf. However, it seems the rest are the usual. I was hoping this was going to be more like my D&D group vs. your D&D group. But not everything is out so I’m hoping the rest is a bit more original.
I wish Corvus Belli a lot of luck...
... They're going to need it...
They are trying to enter a very crowded market that is a niche within a niche.
Games like Frostgrave already have communities bigger than Infinity and CB will also have to compete with the big boy in the room, GW's Warcry.
Unlike 40k, which continues to just be a completely terrible game from a pure game mechanics perspective, Warcry actually works well and has a player base that loves it.
At best Corvus Belli is probably going to steal a lot of their Infinity players away from themselves, while probably not putting a sizeable dent in the Frostgrave or Warcry communities.
So I see this game limping along, possibly surviving the test of time, possibly being another Aristeia.
I also think your arguments here are highly flawed.
Games like Frostgrave, Rangers of Shadowdeep, and Five Leagues from the Borderlands have been doing everything you claim Warcrow could do. Warcrow is coming super late to the game and needs to really do something astounding or it's going to be just another fantasy skirmish game and not really stand out among the others.
Thanks for your thoughts and support, Paladin!
I actually am not considering Frostgrave and similar to my arguments, because I see a big gap between the wargaming community proper, and the rest of tabletop. Sure, a lot of wargamers play DnD, they play board games, they play the big App Driven Dungeon crawlers like Frostgrave.
But I would point to the 40K community-many of those players haven’t tried other wargames, despite having been in the hobby for decades.
So I agree with you that the overall tabletop market may be ahead of what warcrow is doing, but CB is making a wargame. Wargames and the wargaming community are very very different from your Frostgrave people. Maybe there will be a singularity soon, but it isn’t today.
I’d go ahead and argue that the wargaming community at large is the most culturally behind in the tabletop sphere when it’s compared with its other facets-TTRPG, board games.
I won’t deny that Warcry is a big product in the space. I also won’t deny that AoS models are awesome.
However, my channel doesn’t add to the GW noise. They get enough marketing from other RUclipsrs. I do my best not to mention them if I can help it. I used to advocate for Underworlds, but the price point has become untenable.
Thanks as always!
@@CornerCase
You're mixing up Frostgrave with Frosthaven.
Frostgrave is a fantasy tabletop skirmish game that already has a larger following than Infinity. One could argue that it, along with Warcry, are the dogs in this race to beat. Which is why I think you're not correct when you state that there isn't a top dog in this genre.
Frosthaven is the app driven dungeon crawler which I totally agree is not really going to compete with the Warcrow wargame (though does compete with the boardgame to a certain degree, but that's a separate disucssion).
I think they can beat both for two reasons. Better rules (hopefully) than Warcry and not being miniature agnostic like Frostgrave. Most of my friends don't like miniature agnostic games and prefer AoS while at the same time complaining about the universe wanting a more classic fantasy game. At the same time they don't want to play Warcry because the ruleset is too simplified for veteran players limiting long term playability. You are right saying that it will be tough to establish themselves in todays highly competitive market, but I think that they can really be successful if they fill the niche of a reasonably complex, fun and engaging classic Fantasy skirmish game with awesome minis and engaging lore. It'll be tough but I am all here for it! @@paladinpariah325
@@paladinpariah325 tbf I don't see frostgrave or rangers and the like as competition, they're miniature agnostic and very easy to get in to, if you own literally any other minis and feel like playing a fantasy/sci fi skirmish game you can play campaigns of those games. I imagine that people will be interested because of the corvus belli miniture style which is very high quality and in turn purchase the minis and if you have the minis and the rest of the tools you may as well play the game as well. I just dont understand why it has to be one or the other especially when it comes to those other games tbh.
That is the greatest microphone ever! 👍
Whilst I'm very much over 40k as a game, I still like the fiction and I might still paint the occasional model. I'm definitely interested in Epic, if GW can keep a reign on their worst impulses and not monitise it too blatantly.
Over in CB land, I will absolutely continue to vote with my wallet and buy Infinity models. They're gorgeous and absolutely an aesthetic I want to explore more, plus the game is very intriguing IF I can find some local players.
But for Warcrow, I just don't have space in my brain for a fantasy game. I wish CB every success with the game and with the model line, but I can't buy in. My fantasy itch was supposed to be scratched by Kings of War, but both my Ogres and my Abyssal Dwarves are still unbuilt and unpainted. Maybe that itch just isn't so itchy?
Not interested in the fantasy genre, so I hope CB don't forget about their big dawg infinity and work more on progressing the story and balance the rules in that system.
I think you really strike the point about the demographic. My group is very infinity focussed (10to 15 players) and NOBODY is interested in warcrow, me included, but for me is just that I really Dislike classic generic fantasy.
Thanks as always Metallaio! Yeah, it's a completely different audience, but if CB can pull it off, I think the whole wargaming industry can benefit!
None of your points matter at all, if the game isn't fun to play and you failed to give us any reason why we should expect that it will be. No talk of mechanics no talk of innovations no talk of anything other than who got what accolades. None of that matters to me. If you're good at running games and making good product then I'll support it if you're not then I won't
Nah.
No, thank you, Death!
Resin miniatures is not progress in my opinion. Elves, dwarves, and orcs is not progresion. I don't care about new faces, i care about lovely miniatures and resin is far from that.
Thanks Venator! I think the production minis are thermoplastic if I'm not wrong. Not sure if that makes things better for you!
I'd love to see a game that wasn't 28 or 32 mm scale! 54 mm is ideal. in my opinion. Everyone knows bigger models look better.
Cultural progression, diversity, safe space... Yeah, GW are arseholes but I think I'll stick with WH40k
iam not really with the point that the artists should be aknowledged in the books..because the get aknowledged by geting payed exactly for the job they are doing..creating games and painting miniatures. And i think a Robin Crucdace(i totally butchered the Name) would have loved to not be namend in his books...because the community started to harass him because of his books .And there is a King of Fantasygames..it called Age of Sigmar.
The most important? Because what, you said so?
Thanks Kraziel! It's what I believe. I'm sure you believe differently, and if you link me to your video, I'll support you with a view, like, and comment, too