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I know nothing about the railways, but I love the fact that the quiz results in more questions than answers. The audience are so knowledgeable and have such memories that they can really muddy the water. 😂
I know. It is rather humbling to discover that most people who listen to the show are far smarter than we are. Having said that, this week's question is a corker and it's clearly foxing a few.....!
This time we are post Brexit. There had to be hardships and costs to brining the Irish contract out of Poland to the UK. But they were all in to save those jobs. And the answer is no bloody answer at all. Sod off! A great message to the entire supply chain. Great interview. Sad, but great.
Thanks Nigel, Richard,and Staf, for another brilliant episode of Green Signals. Informative, thought-provoking, and thoroughly enjoyable as ever. Please please please continue the good work, guys 👏
Great stuff, Green Signals. Thanks for covering the ORR v WCR case. Very interesting. I'd note that allowing exemptions while fitment is taking place could be based on an ALARP decision. The risk of an incident occurring whilst fitment takes place may be balanced against the cost of not running the service. RSSB guidance states that lost revenue during installation can be included in the CBA. In any case, the ORR comes across as incredibly reasonable in all this.
I stumbled across your excellent podcast yesterday by accident. I found your content and discussions both informative and entertaining. Thank you both very much, you've gone to the top of my regular watchlists.👍👍
Looking at the annual accounts for WCR it is a company with a shareholding of almost £6m that increased from £3.7m in 2023 alone thanks to profits made by WCR from its services. It has the resources to fit CDL and, moreover, to comply with the safety regulations set down by ORR and should stop wasting folks time and energy and simply comply. Why is this only affecting their jaccobite service - why not the Scarborough Spa Express and Dalesman services which appear to use similar rolling stock? A really good analysis of the situation in your vlog which I always enjoy watching.
Another excellent and informative episode gents. I’m astounded that West Coast Railways are trying to play this game, they’re only fooling themselves if they think they’ll win this. Keep up the good work and looking forward to the guests coming up. Cheers, Tim
Excellent podcast guys . Is the go to place to find out what’s happening on the railway . Thoroughly enjoyable even though a bit depressing at the pigheadedness of WCRC and the in action at the Department of Transport /Minister of Trsnsport . The issues were very well laid out by yourselves . Can’t wait till next week .
Great reporting chaps. Lets be very clear on this, as you reported in your vlog, no other main line operator of Mk1 rolling stock is operating under an ORR exemption as W.C.R.C. are wrongly claiming. The S.R.P.S. main line Mk1 set is not currently in operation. And the Saphos/Locomotive Services Mk1 set has already been converted. The Riveria Mk1 main line chocolate and cream Mk1 set was disbanded/sold on and no longer operates on the main line. And as your rightly said the N.Y.M.R. mk1 set operates at 25 mph max to Whitby under its own safety case, so dosn't need CDL.
Just come across this by pure chance. Very informative and intelligent podcast...have now subscribed. Now have to catch up on the previous 27 episodes that i missed🙂 Keep up the good work....
Thanks for such great feedback and kind words Geoff! We hope you enjoy all the episodes - we’ve got some cracking interviews lined up in the next month or so as well. Cheers.
To be completely blunt, is it simply the case that if WCR hadn't been caught playing silly buggers and not securing the manual locks, twice, they would still have their exemption in place. Further to this taking into consideration WCR's past history of incidents and current belligerence the ORR have just had enough of WCR's BS.
The X'trapolis trains being built for Ireland have a new low floor bodyshell like the Stadler flirt adapted to a British standard 3ft platfrom height with level boarding and gap filler steps. This design is the perfect fit for many regional units that need replacing over the next few decades in the UK. That stakeholders have let that order go elsewhere is sheer lunacy. The Bombardier Aventra has had its day. A few more to supplement recent fleets maybe, but the Irish order could have set Derby up with the ideal new UK EMU design almost off the shelf with battery options readily available, and indeed to also be supplied to Irish Rail.
Just watched a video posted by someone of some west coast stock of mk2 heading towards fort william. 47 and 45212 which believe is a regular engine on Jacobite runs. Interesting that west coast moving mk2 up there as net they have CDL. Later model mk2 with the sealed windows. Perhaps reality setting in at west coast.
WCR have prevaricated so long they are now faced with a large fleet to modify at once. If they had started when originally told to they could have spread it out over several years. Maybe 2 birds, get Derby to do it ! 😂
Thanks for another great episode, Guys. I wonder if that nice Mr Harper would agree to be interviewed for the podcast regarding the Alstom debacle, especially since you've already shown your interview with Mr Crossfield. I'm heartbroken by this situation. Just think of all the locos and stock with which the phrase "Derby-built" can be associated. Britain will very soon have nothing left to be proud of if Ministers keep misbehaving so pathetically. And speak up, Mr Starmer.
Re the Hope Valley. You didn't mention one of the crucial enhancements - the extension of the West to South chord which enables full-length freight trains to occupy it without blocking either main line.
Vintage trains one of the other operators have an agreed plan with ORR regarding fitting CDL. These the main people that done excursions with. So whilst not fitted they have a signed and agreed plan with ORR that will be fitted and when. That is the CRUCIAL difference and why West Coast getting the No. They are saying no plans to fit but we want an exemption. Was posted before you got that far in video so aware you did make this distinction clear in video
I have not watched this episode yet as I am still catching up on all the earlier episodes. Something from one of those episodes has encouraged me to say, Nigel and Richard, can we have more anecdotes from the depths of your experiences. I love a good anecdote from you two. Also, Nigel, keep on waffling (your term) as much as you like but keep it interesting. I am at the moment gaining on you as I am able to view three or four episodes per week against your production of one per week so I should be viewing this episode in about 10 days time. Kind regards to the pair of you.
Very entertaining this week both of you ,thanks Let us see if this is very clever or not ! The places you mentioned are all ticketing destinations,however don't have Railway Stations journey needs to be completed by Bus service.
WCR have had years to fit central locking. They have been making money running the Jacobite for the last 20 years. They say that if every passenger paid £10 extra they would make enough to fit central locking
Does beg the question why West Coast dont just submit a plan and commit then they get their extension......wonder how long they could get.....12 months......18?
NYMR is 100% ticketed, single line, 25mph. But isn't the Jacobite all of those as well? (Not that I think WCRC should be allowed to dodge investing in H&S to protect their generous profits)
WCR have since announced they have put together a set of coaches with a "reduced capacity" which will allow them to resume a Jacobite service from the 15th April. Have they hastily fitted CDL to some of their Mk1s, or have they managed to source some alternate compliant stock? I don't think the ORR will back down, nor should they, so this might be the first sign of WCR admitting defeat.
Indeed James. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. Not a 5 minute job to fit CDL so suspect these are vehicles that were being used elsewhere.
Today and I see someone else spotted and posted that these are some Mk2’s moving up. Later model with sealed windows so these will have had CDL already, so no opening the windows to hear the engine either. Not ideal but it will allow them to run trains.
Every episode makes Mark Harpers inactions look worse and worse as more details are revealed. Shocking lack of care for the industry. Good to see you reporting WCR are running empty stock trains on the line, supposedly for crew training, which block out other operators using the paths. If a path is not used for 90 days it is lost by WCR. A scenic rail cruise operator wanted to use one of the paths to allow more time in Mallaig for their passengers but now cannot. Can't see ORR backing down without plan to fit locks. Amazed I got the quiz right with class 89! Seems too hard to get a mug though! Is the connection for all four towns that they are at the end of a disused branch line. At least Richmond Station still exists.
It's certainly getting to be a very interesting situation with WCR, isn't it? We'll have to wait and see what happens next. Glad you got the answer right for the quiz last time! You'll have to wait and see whether you're right this time around!
I believe they have announced that the service will start Monday 15th April with compliant stock. So definitely worth giving them a call. I am sure they will explain the situation for you. Cheers.
Curious about the statement regarding the NYMR and filling ticketing and seated ref the CDL issue over NR metals. Having been on said railway to Whitby, there were plenty of people standing next to drop lights taking photos. And looking out the windows. So how does the Risk Assessment stand up to that?
@@GreenSignals I rode on the NYMR a few weeks ago and I was told in no uncertain terms that it is strictly forbidden to put your head out of any window, by order of ORR. There were stewards keeping an eye on us all.
Hope Valley - why don't they have an interchange station at New Mills South Junction? and why isn't the line from NMSJ to Ashburys Junction not electrified?
They should get something cheaper to run like a redundant class 230 or 769 on the empty path rather than loco hauled ECS, it would also make for an interesting sight seeing ex Underground or ex Thameslink stock running up in the Scottish Highlands.
I'm not sure that an add-on order for SWT Class 701s is a good idea. The existing fleet has exhausted all the storage space in the UK. Where would they store them for the rest of their working lives?
Do you think it's time, that heritage railways, where they have demonstrated good track maintenance, should be allowed to operate at higher speeds, say, 30mph to 40mph maximum?
Enjoying the pod cast, have you considered a styke similar to the excellent rest in politics where there is an alternating question time podcast which deals with listersn questions arising from the prior cast.
Can’t WCR use a different set of Mark 1 coaches? If they have others based at Carnforth which has CDL fitted then couldn’t they use these for the Jacobite?
Ultimately all regulatory costs are passed to the customer, so the answer might be to make an explicit "ORR charge" on every ticket (£10?) to fund the door locking. If they make this proposal, that'll surely allow the ORR to continue the exemption as a plan is in place, and very explicitly so.
Just after posting this episode WCR have now announced restart of jacobite on April 15th with shorter trains and unspecified new safety measures whil still expecting an ORR extension. Be interesting to know how ORR view these safety measures!
@@allanmorton6022be more interesting to see which loco they use on it , as the two air brake black fives are away on the GB 9 day tour. The only other one is tanglemere
I think you were too quick to dimiss Falcon, it was allocated a TOPs class, and was existence well into the BR era, even recieving the 'arrow of indisicion' logo. The fact it was purchased from Brush into BR stock in 1970 definatly cements it's position as a class with a single member under BR
Yep, it definitely entered BR stock and received Class 53 - but I decided to define BR loco as being the point when it was built. Appreciate not everyone agrees with that! Cheers. R
Out of curiosity. You mention passengers being killed on a ‘charter’ train as a result of having their head out of a drop light. Previously my understanding was that this hadn’t happened on any charter trains. And that the fatalities from such incidents had happened on regular service trains. When was the previous incident of a fatality on a charter train that was droplight related?
I was going to suggest a new alcohol-free drinking game. Make a £1 donation each time the abbreviation "CDL" is mentioned in the podcast. In this episode it was uttered 13 times. However I foresee two immediate downsides: (1) it may encourage you to round up the CDL-count to the nearest RUclips donation increment (15 in this instance) and; (2) by the time WCR finally sees sense you’ll have received enough in donations from me to fund the Green Signals helicopter
Wow Roy. That's so kind - thank you. Hopefully there won't be quite so many mentions of CDL in the next few episodes - but I guess it depends on unfolding events. But thank so much - that's very kind indeed and glad you are enjoying the show. Cheers. The Green Signals team.
Great episode people, one thing that I am continually confused by, what is the purpose of the ROSCOs? According to the rail unions they just extract £billions of tax-payer money into hedge funds and wealth funds but every decision regarding train building and orders is made by DfT… can you clarify this for me?
The Derby debacle reminds me of the York works scenario , oooh no orders coming in we havr to close it .A few months after it closed new orders were released which would have saved York ,but no York was closed and a lot of the land sold for housing etc' hmmmmmm
Re West Coast, interesting to see they might finally have seen the light, restarting operations on Monday. I assume it must be CDL fitted Mk2s so wonder if it will be diesel hauled or have they an air braked steam loco there or ready to send from Carnforth?
Great episode as always especially love the bits of railway lore one learns from these Quiz Guess: An Ammunition Train exploded at all four places/on lines that ran near them? Question Why can't a ROSCO just buy the extra trains with the aim to lease them to TFL? Surely the (nonsensical) privatized model should encourage ROSCOS to do this and surely they must be allowed to? I doubt Harper will order as it seems clear he's just a loyal idiotic unqualified yesman there to maintain sunaks anti rail agenda
How many of the aventras are actually in use with SWR? could production have been ramped down and stretched out I wonder. Regardless, the interview earlier in the week was superb
Not sure it would have been possible to stretch out as there is a minimum throughput rate to enable the line to function efficiently. Many thanks re the interview. Nick was indeed excellent.
The problem with West Coast Railways coming up with a fitment plan to gain an extension may be that they don't have the money to carry it out. They'd get found out very quickly if that were the case.
Well done picking up on the 1980s singling schemes. Penistone lLne, Brigg Line, Blackpool South Line etc etc Where it's nice to see the new accessible station at Dore, let us reminder ourselves yet again when it comes to accessibility on the railway it is a joke , Pilning and Brigg spring to mind. Excellent video as always, keep up the good work everyone 👍
@@GreenSignalsBlackburn Bolton springs to mind. Busy commuter route and delays due to the single track impact all the way down to the Castlefield corridor.
Thanks, start the week as last week ended. Depressed about his government and their inability to make sensible decisions! 😂. The indecision is just remarkable. I was reading on X last night a comment about the political parties stating they’ll increase defence spending to 2.5% when affordable. The comment was it’s affordable now if you don’t make National Insurance cuts, or don’t increase spending elsewhere etc. it’s nothing to do with affordable it’s to do with political priorities. It’s the same with this issue of train building. Mark Harper says it’s not a DfT decision, when we all know that in reality it is as the money can’t be spent without their say so. Why can’t politicians be honest with us & give the real reason - or perhaps they don’t know the real reason!
Thanks for the Super Thanks Chris, that's incredibly kind of you and we really do appreciate it! And yes, it's all incredibly frustrating and demoralising at times, isn't it?!
Re NYMR and your comment about the ORR exemption for Mark 1/2 stock used currently from Grosmont to Whitby. This is not rational thinking to justify because the 25mph speed restriction used as a justification, to allow the exemption, is not a reasonable reason for an exemption. Not having CDL fittted on the Grosmot - Whitby stock should result in the banning of the use of the stock. You can fall out of a train and perish even below a speed of 25 mph. The risk assement rationale of the use of non CDL stock on this section of track is another H&S/ORR smoke screen. Since when has the government ever been capable of running a profitable railway? They are great at finding rerasons for operators to spend spend spend on the expense side. The ORR along with the Health and Safety brain surgeons have collectively cost Britons so many millions of pounds for what benefit. The cost benefit equation and decisions, for this whole debacle, is a hard to comprehend.
It is not just the speed that determines the level of risk mitigation but all the factors that have been included in a comprehensive risk assessment. The principle of ALARP has been at the heart of all risk assessment and mitigation since the 1974 Act was passed. Not sure what the relevance is of the point about the Government not knowing how to run a profitable railway but it’s hard to see any different approach being adopted here than the one that is adopted day in, day out, by regulators involved in any safety risk management process.
Sky News now reporting that Jacobite services to resume on 15 April, following WCR putting together a rake of compliant stock. A shorter train than normal, apparently, and presumably not Mk1 stock. Fuller details will no doubt follow soon
If you want to know how things work I would suggest reading Ian Dunt's book "How Westminster Works .... and why It Doesn't". The system does not work and the book explains why it does not work. At least the people at Derby are not facing the fate of the poor people in Afghanistan which features in one of the chapters.
Good question. Someone with more detail RS knowledge will be able to provide a full list but I believe tat LSL's Class 121 Bubble Car for instance is Vac braked but has CDL. Understand there is an electromechanical version?
@@GreenSignalsif it's the old Chiltern bubble car it has electromagnets in the solebars and steel plates attached to each door extend down over the magnets which lock the doors in place.
I'm so Glad Richard called 89001 'Aardvark' rather than 'Avocet'. When we were involved with CE works at NVR on Wednesday in the Summertime evenings we used to see her passing over the 'Meccano' bridge at Peterborough back when she was running regular services and only ever referred to her as 'Aardvark'.
I seem to recall "Badger" was another popular nickname. But I always preferred Aardvark. Had her for haulage a few times - but looking forward to seeing her back on the mainline.
Brexit should’ve given us benefits, but the government’s reluctance and ineptitude is there for all to see. The delays and dithering is something else that is a constant in this country. I’m not sure if you’ve covered the Tyne & Wear Metro, but the trains ordered ages ago are still not in service. They’re blaming Ukraine, more safety checks needed due to wet weather (?), more driver training needed (how much training do drivers need?) . And they did of course have the chance to order from Newton Aycliffe down there road. It’s hard to believe there aren’t people making a lot of money out of these stupid choices and unnecessary delays we see time and again.
Hmm. Interesting...... Tune in next week to find out. And don't forget to email us with details of where you would like your mug sent for 89001. Cheers!
Alstom is a french state owned company, they are not necessary interested in creating and maintaining jobs in UK !! Like to work, but UK does not have the money to buy them. Uk is wrong here, they are private investors mainly.The goverment does not have the financial ressouces., Uk has the highest debts in history...Greetings from Germany ! Alstom has enough capacities on the continent to produce after they bought Bombardier.
The issue with the Jacobite steam train and the stock used is absolutely ridiculous. It’s been running this way for decades. Why tamper with a winning formula? No-one is likely to open a door when the train moving. We never had all this crap years ago.
Having a steward in each coach is far better than CDL. The on board tourist sales support such staffing levels which couldn’t be justified by companies only providing a train manager and occasional tea trolley. No centralised comms to call the train manager but fire Marshall’s, first aiders, security guards on duty within earshot or visual range. 😎😇
Is this the most intelligent podcast on the British rail industry today? For the Alstom Derby issue, see username - and a certain Swedish minister was extremely dumb there... and we know the rest...
Also the NYMR Whitby service only stops at one N.R. station, Whitby terminus, which is very wide, and they have to stop and phone NR for the token at Grosmont and Whitby. Whereas the Jacobite stops at three N.R. stations, and passes through another 16 stations.
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I know nothing about the railways, but I love the fact that the quiz results in more questions than answers. The audience are so knowledgeable and have such memories that they can really muddy the water. 😂
I know. It is rather humbling to discover that most people who listen to the show are far smarter than we are.
Having said that, this week's question is a corker and it's clearly foxing a few.....!
This time we are post Brexit. There had to be hardships and costs to brining the Irish contract out of Poland to the UK. But they were all in to save those jobs. And the answer is no bloody answer at all. Sod off! A great message to the entire supply chain. Great interview. Sad, but great.
Thanks Robert.
Thanks Nigel, Richard,and Staf, for another brilliant episode of Green Signals. Informative, thought-provoking, and thoroughly enjoyable as ever. Please please please continue the good work, guys 👏
We will Roddy - and thanks for such kind feedback. It is much appreciated. Richard
Great stuff, Green Signals. Thanks for covering the ORR v WCR case. Very interesting.
I'd note that allowing exemptions while fitment is taking place could be based on an ALARP decision. The risk of an incident occurring whilst fitment takes place may be balanced against the cost of not running the service. RSSB guidance states that lost revenue during installation can be included in the CBA.
In any case, the ORR comes across as incredibly reasonable in all this.
Thanks for the feedback - much appreciated!
I stumbled across your excellent podcast yesterday by accident. I found your content and discussions both informative and entertaining. Thank you both very much, you've gone to the top of my regular watchlists.👍👍
Thanks Laurie - really appreciate such lovely feedback. Richard
Looking at the annual accounts for WCR it is a company with a shareholding of almost £6m that increased from £3.7m in 2023 alone thanks to profits made by WCR from its services. It has the resources to fit CDL and, moreover, to comply with the safety regulations set down by ORR and should stop wasting folks time and energy and simply comply. Why is this only affecting their jaccobite service - why not the Scarborough Spa Express and Dalesman services which appear to use similar rolling stock? A really good analysis of the situation in your vlog which I always enjoy watching.
Another excellent and informative episode gents. I’m astounded that West Coast Railways are trying to play this game, they’re only fooling themselves if they think they’ll win this.
Keep up the good work and looking forward to the guests coming up. Cheers, Tim
Thanks Tim. Some absolutely CRACKING guests!
Great listening yet again; thanks both!
Thanks chris!
Evening guys. Yet another absolutely fantastic pod cast on RUclips 🤩
Thanks for such lovely feedback. Cheers!
Excellent content as usual thanks guys.
You are most welcome - thanks!
I love that you sorted Swindon station out Richard !! Another fab episode chaps!!
Excellent podcast guys . Is the go to place to find out what’s happening on the railway . Thoroughly enjoyable even though a bit depressing at the pigheadedness of WCRC and the in action at the Department of Transport /Minister of Trsnsport . The issues were very well laid out by yourselves . Can’t wait till next week .
Thanks Russell. That's really kind! Sorry to depress you a bit - but we feel we need to say it as we see it! Cheers.
@@GreenSignals yes no problem with that. With any luck the powers that be will take notice
Great reporting chaps. Lets be very clear on this, as you reported in your vlog, no other main line operator of Mk1 rolling stock is operating under an ORR exemption as W.C.R.C. are wrongly claiming. The S.R.P.S. main line Mk1 set is not currently in operation. And the Saphos/Locomotive Services Mk1 set has already been converted. The Riveria Mk1 main line chocolate and cream Mk1 set was disbanded/sold on and no longer operates on the main line. And as your rightly said the N.Y.M.R. mk1 set operates at 25 mph max to Whitby under its own safety case, so dosn't need CDL.
Appreciate the detailed background info. All helps understand what is happening out there. Cheers.
Great podcast. You are both infotmative and enjoyable.
Just come across this by pure chance. Very informative and intelligent podcast...have now subscribed. Now have to catch up on the previous 27 episodes that i missed🙂 Keep up the good work....
Thanks for such great feedback and kind words Geoff! We hope you enjoy all the episodes - we’ve got some cracking interviews lined up in the next month or so as well. Cheers.
Great episode by the way. The fact that train building have had great times in the past.
Went on a LSL Mk1 set on 2nd March. Fully fitted with what looks like ex-Mk3 equipment.
Thanks Mark. If it's dual braked then I believe the ex Wabtec kit can be fitted.
Another superb episode - thanks
Thanks John, really pleased to hear you enjoyed it.
To be completely blunt, is it simply the case that if WCR hadn't been caught playing silly buggers and not securing the manual locks, twice, they would still have their exemption in place. Further to this taking into consideration WCR's past history of incidents and current belligerence the ORR have just had enough of WCR's BS.
The X'trapolis trains being built for Ireland have a new low floor bodyshell like the Stadler flirt adapted to a British standard 3ft platfrom height with level boarding and gap filler steps. This design is the perfect fit for many regional units that need replacing over the next few decades in the UK. That stakeholders have let that order go elsewhere is sheer lunacy. The Bombardier Aventra has had its day. A few more to supplement recent fleets maybe, but the Irish order could have set Derby up with the ideal new UK EMU design almost off the shelf with battery options readily available, and indeed to also be supplied to Irish Rail.
Thanks Mark. Great intel and feedback.
@@GreenSignals Just X'trapolating...
Just watched a video posted by someone of some west coast stock of mk2 heading towards fort william. 47 and 45212 which believe is a regular engine on Jacobite runs. Interesting that west coast moving mk2 up there as net they have CDL. Later model mk2 with the sealed windows. Perhaps reality setting in at west coast.
The iron claw of technocracy firms its grip on the Jacobite.
WCR have prevaricated so long they are now faced with a large fleet to modify at once. If they had started when originally told to they could have spread it out over several years. Maybe 2 birds, get Derby to do it ! 😂
Thanks for another great episode, Guys. I wonder if that nice Mr Harper would agree to be interviewed for the podcast regarding the Alstom debacle, especially since you've already shown your interview with Mr Crossfield. I'm heartbroken by this situation. Just think of all the locos and stock with which the phrase "Derby-built" can be associated. Britain will very soon have nothing left to be proud of if Ministers keep misbehaving so pathetically. And speak up, Mr Starmer.
Thanks Mike, Appreciate the feedback,. We are hoping to get Rail Minister Huw Merriman on in due course. Watch this space!
I think West Coast Railways have been operating by being Not Safety operated for more than 2 decades.
Thanks
Thanks so much, that's very kind of you!
Great topic again
cheers! Appreciate the feedback.
Re the Hope Valley. You didn't mention one of the crucial enhancements - the extension of the West to South chord which enables full-length freight trains to occupy it without blocking either main line.
Thanks - we'll mention that on the show. It's a great point.
Vintage trains one of the other operators have an agreed plan with ORR regarding fitting CDL. These the main people that done excursions with. So whilst not fitted they have a signed and agreed plan with ORR that will be fitted and when.
That is the CRUCIAL difference and why West Coast getting the No. They are saying no plans to fit but we want an exemption.
Was posted before you got that far in video so aware you did make this distinction clear in video
Thanks Michael. As you say the distinction is an important one.
In the mean time running with no CDL but an agreement to fit does not make a slam door safer at that moment.
I have not watched this episode yet as I am still catching up on all the earlier episodes. Something from one of those episodes has encouraged me to say, Nigel and Richard, can we have more anecdotes from the depths of your experiences. I love a good anecdote from you two. Also, Nigel, keep on waffling (your term) as much as you like but keep it interesting. I am at the moment gaining on you as I am able to view three or four episodes per week against your production of one per week so I should be viewing this episode in about 10 days time. Kind regards to the pair of you.
Thanks Robert. Lovely feedback as ever. Cheers! Richard
Super stuff guys and very enjoyable!
Thank Simon! Richard
Very entertaining this week both of you ,thanks
Let us see if this is very clever or not !
The places you mentioned are all ticketing destinations,however don't have Railway Stations journey needs to be completed by Bus service.
You'll have to tune in next week to find out if it's clever or not! Glad you enjoyed the show.
WCR have had years to fit central locking. They have been making money running the Jacobite for the last 20 years. They say that if every passenger paid £10 extra they would make enough to fit central locking
Awesome production 🎉
Many thanks! We do try....! Cheers
Does beg the question why West Coast dont just submit a plan and commit then they get their extension......wonder how long they could get.....12 months......18?
That's the big question isn't it? Why won't they commit to fitting CDL?
NYMR is 100% ticketed, single line, 25mph. But isn't the Jacobite all of those as well? (Not that I think WCRC should be allowed to dodge investing in H&S to protect their generous profits)
Thanks Hugh. However, I believe the Jacobite runs in excess of 25 mile/h.
WCR have since announced they have put together a set of coaches with a "reduced capacity" which will allow them to resume a Jacobite service from the 15th April. Have they hastily fitted CDL to some of their Mk1s, or have they managed to source some alternate compliant stock? I don't think the ORR will back down, nor should they, so this might be the first sign of WCR admitting defeat.
Indeed James. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
Not a 5 minute job to fit CDL so suspect these are vehicles that were being used elsewhere.
Today and I see someone else spotted and posted that these are some Mk2’s moving up. Later model with sealed windows so these will have had CDL already, so no opening the windows to hear the engine either.
Not ideal but it will allow them to run trains.
Every episode makes Mark Harpers inactions look worse and worse as more details are revealed. Shocking lack of care for the industry. Good to see you reporting WCR are running empty stock trains on the line, supposedly for crew training, which block out other operators using the paths. If a path is not used for 90 days it is lost by WCR. A scenic rail cruise operator wanted to use one of the paths to allow more time in Mallaig for their passengers but now cannot. Can't see ORR backing down without plan to fit locks. Amazed I got the quiz right with class 89! Seems too hard to get a mug though! Is the connection for all four towns that they are at the end of a disused branch line. At least Richmond Station still exists.
It's certainly getting to be a very interesting situation with WCR, isn't it? We'll have to wait and see what happens next. Glad you got the answer right for the quiz last time! You'll have to wait and see whether you're right this time around!
I suppose am being selfish here as I have a ticket for the Jacobite in June. Could they not hire in the rolling stock ?
I believe they have announced that the service will start Monday 15th April with compliant stock. So definitely worth giving them a call. I am sure they will explain the situation for you. Cheers.
@@GreenSignals thank you 😊
Curious about the statement regarding the NYMR and filling ticketing and seated ref the CDL issue over NR metals. Having been on said railway to Whitby, there were plenty of people standing next to drop lights taking photos. And looking out the windows. So how does the Risk Assessment stand up to that?
Out of interest, roughly when was that?
@@GreenSignals I rode on the NYMR a few weeks ago and I was told in no uncertain terms that it is strictly forbidden to put your head out of any window, by order of ORR. There were stewards keeping an eye on us all.
@@GreenSignals August 2023
Perhaps you’ve already covered this previously but is CDL really safer? What makes it safer?
Sureity that all doors are properly secured. Doors are unable to be unlocked until the train has stopped
I see The Jacobite is back from Monday with West Coast using CDL-fitted Mk2s and Black Five 45212.
Thanks - that's good to see.
Hope Valley - why don't they have an interchange station at New Mills South Junction? and why isn't the line from NMSJ to Ashburys Junction not electrified?
They should get something cheaper to run like a redundant class 230 or 769 on the empty path rather than loco hauled ECS, it would also make for an interesting sight seeing ex Underground or ex Thameslink stock running up in the Scottish Highlands.
I'm not sure that an add-on order for SWT Class 701s is a good idea. The existing fleet has exhausted all the storage space in the UK. Where would they store them for the rest of their working lives?
That's a fair point. I suspect the TfL order is a) easier to fund because direct from HMT and b) they do need the units. R
Do you think it's time, that heritage railways, where they have demonstrated good track maintenance, should be allowed to operate at higher speeds, say, 30mph to 40mph maximum?
Enjoying the pod cast, have you considered a styke similar to the excellent rest in politics where there is an alternating question time podcast which deals with listersn questions arising from the prior cast.
Interesting suggestion. That one will definitely go on the 'brainstorm agenda'. Cheers.
Can’t WCR use a different set of Mark 1 coaches? If they have others based at Carnforth which has CDL fitted then couldn’t they use these for the Jacobite?
The statement on the WCR website covers this and basically states that there are none available.
(Update - that now seems to be out of date.)
It looks like they may have found some as a limited service is reported as restarting next week.
Ultimately all regulatory costs are passed to the customer, so the answer might be to make an explicit "ORR charge" on every ticket (£10?) to fund the door locking.
If they make this proposal, that'll surely allow the ORR to continue the exemption as a plan is in place, and very explicitly so.
Just after posting this episode WCR have now announced restart of jacobite on April 15th with shorter trains and unspecified new safety measures whil still expecting an ORR extension. Be interesting to know how ORR view these safety measures!
It will be interesting indeed to see how this develops Allan.
They have acquired some stock with CDL it will be a service but not the authenticity of the normally used stock
@@tonysmith1795 thanks Tony that's an interesting development.
@@allanmorton6022be more interesting to see which loco they use on it , as the two air brake black fives are away on the GB 9 day tour. The only other one is tanglemere
I think you were too quick to dimiss Falcon, it was allocated a TOPs class, and was existence well into the BR era, even recieving the 'arrow of indisicion' logo. The fact it was purchased from Brush into BR stock in 1970 definatly cements it's position as a class with a single member under BR
Yep, it definitely entered BR stock and received Class 53 - but I decided to define BR loco as being the point when it was built. Appreciate not everyone agrees with that! Cheers. R
Well done guys
Cheers!
Out of curiosity. You mention passengers being killed on a ‘charter’ train as a result of having their head out of a drop light. Previously my understanding was that this hadn’t happened on any charter trains. And that the fatalities from such incidents had happened on regular service trains.
When was the previous incident of a fatality on a charter train that was droplight related?
I was going to suggest a new alcohol-free drinking game. Make a £1 donation each time the abbreviation "CDL" is mentioned in the podcast. In this episode it was uttered 13 times. However I foresee two immediate downsides: (1) it may encourage you to round up the CDL-count to the nearest RUclips donation increment (15 in this instance) and; (2) by the time WCR finally sees sense you’ll have received enough in donations from me to fund the Green Signals helicopter
Wow Roy. That's so kind - thank you. Hopefully there won't be quite so many mentions of CDL in the next few episodes - but I guess it depends on unfolding events.
But thank so much - that's very kind indeed and glad you are enjoying the show. Cheers. The Green Signals team.
Great episode people, one thing that I am continually confused by, what is the purpose of the ROSCOs? According to the rail unions they just extract £billions of tax-payer money into hedge funds and wealth funds but every decision regarding train building and orders is made by DfT… can you clarify this for me?
We will be covering ROSCOs in an episode soon - though do keep an open mind till then! Cheers. R
@@GreenSignals Thanks Richard look forward to it!
The Derby debacle reminds me of the York works scenario , oooh no orders coming in we havr to close it .A few months after it closed new orders were released which would have saved York ,but no York was closed and a lot of the land sold for housing etc' hmmmmmm
Out of interest, do you recall what the orders were that were released after York closed?
@@GreenSignals It was orders for wagons and a EMU contract
Re West Coast, interesting to see they might finally have seen the light, restarting operations on Monday. I assume it must be CDL fitted Mk2s so wonder if it will be diesel hauled or have they an air braked steam loco there or ready to send from Carnforth?
Will be very interesting to see what stock is being used.
Shame, we could have had a few bars of "For a few dollars more" which seems quite apt for this channels discussions. 🤣
How droll!
Great episode as always especially love the bits of railway lore one learns from these
Quiz Guess: An Ammunition Train exploded at all four places/on lines that ran near them?
Question
Why can't a ROSCO just buy the extra trains with the aim to lease them to TFL?
Surely the (nonsensical) privatized model should encourage ROSCOS to do this and surely they must be allowed to?
I doubt Harper will order as it seems clear he's just a loyal idiotic unqualified yesman there to maintain sunaks anti rail agenda
Thanks Adam. Still got fingers crossed for Derby......
How many of the aventras are actually in use with SWR? could production have been ramped down and stretched out I wonder. Regardless, the interview earlier in the week was superb
Not sure it would have been possible to stretch out as there is a minimum throughput rate to enable the line to function efficiently.
Many thanks re the interview. Nick was indeed excellent.
The problem with West Coast Railways coming up with a fitment plan to gain an extension may be that they don't have the money to carry it out. They'd get found out very quickly if that were the case.
We understand that all the operators who do have exemptions where fitment is in the future have fully financed plans to do so.
Given that the class 19 was developed post-British Rail, regardless of it not running in service it wouldn't qualify anyway?
Doh. You are of course correct!
Quiz: Are they all places with through rail / bus link ticketing...?
Well done picking up on the 1980s singling schemes.
Penistone lLne, Brigg Line, Blackpool South Line etc etc
Where it's nice to see the new accessible station at Dore, let us reminder ourselves yet again when it comes to accessibility on the railway it is a joke , Pilning and Brigg spring to mind.
Excellent video as always, keep up the good work everyone 👍
Cheers! Glad you are enjoying it.
BR built and operated MK1's then sold them. Then regulations change driven by a safety case. A recuring theme.
One of the key things in business is to create capacity and then fill it. There are so many examples of BR rationalisation crying for re-doubling.
And in fairness, quite a few have been sorted. But still a fair few that would benefit from the treatment!
@@GreenSignalsBlackburn Bolton springs to mind. Busy commuter route and delays due to the single track impact all the way down to the Castlefield corridor.
Thanks, start the week as last week ended. Depressed about his government and their inability to make sensible decisions! 😂. The indecision is just remarkable.
I was reading on X last night a comment about the political parties stating they’ll increase defence spending to 2.5% when affordable. The comment was it’s affordable now if you don’t make National Insurance cuts, or don’t increase spending elsewhere etc. it’s nothing to do with affordable it’s to do with political priorities.
It’s the same with this issue of train building. Mark Harper says it’s not a DfT decision, when we all know that in reality it is as the money can’t be spent without their say so.
Why can’t politicians be honest with us & give the real reason - or perhaps they don’t know the real reason!
Thanks for the Super Thanks Chris, that's incredibly kind of you and we really do appreciate it! And yes, it's all incredibly frustrating and demoralising at times, isn't it?!
Re NYMR and your comment about the ORR exemption for Mark 1/2 stock used currently from Grosmont to Whitby. This is not rational thinking to justify because the 25mph speed restriction used as a justification, to allow the exemption, is not a reasonable reason for an exemption. Not having CDL fittted on the Grosmot - Whitby stock should result in the banning of the use of the stock. You can fall out of a train and perish even below a speed of 25 mph. The risk assement rationale of the use of non CDL stock on this section of track is another H&S/ORR smoke screen. Since when has the government ever been capable of running a profitable railway? They are great at finding rerasons for operators to spend spend spend on the expense side. The ORR along with the Health and Safety brain surgeons have collectively cost Britons so many millions of pounds for what benefit. The cost benefit equation and decisions, for this whole debacle, is a hard to comprehend.
It is not just the speed that determines the level of risk mitigation but all the factors that have been included in a comprehensive risk assessment. The principle of ALARP has been at the heart of all risk assessment and mitigation since the 1974 Act was passed.
Not sure what the relevance is of the point about the Government not knowing how to run a profitable railway but it’s hard to see any different approach being adopted here than the one that is adopted day in, day out, by regulators involved in any safety risk management process.
Answer to question all have closed railway stations so no longer have a national railway station in use.
Thanks Michael. All will be revealed next week!
Re the quiz- you can buy rail tickets to those places, despite them no longer having a rail service/open station
Interesting. But it is the right answer! Tune in next week to find out!
Sky News now reporting that Jacobite services to resume on 15 April, following WCR putting together a rake of compliant stock. A shorter train than normal, apparently, and presumably not Mk1 stock. Fuller details will no doubt follow soon
Indeed. Looking forward to see the full details.
West Coast Railways have confirmed that the Jacobite steam train will resume from the 15th April.
Thanks David.
If you want to know how things work I would suggest reading Ian Dunt's book "How Westminster Works .... and why It Doesn't". The system does not work and the book explains why it does not work. At least the people at Derby are not facing the fate of the poor people in Afghanistan which features in one of the chapters.
Thanks Iain. Will look that up. Cheers.
is the connection between the 4 stations that they all had a line that was closed
Interesting suggestion! Tune in next week to see if you are correct. Cheers.
43:47 just out of curiosity which operator has fitted CDL to Vaccum Braked stock? I believe all of LSLs stock is air/dual braked
Good question. Someone with more detail RS knowledge will be able to provide a full list but I believe tat LSL's Class 121 Bubble Car for instance is Vac braked but has CDL. Understand there is an electromechanical version?
@@GreenSignalsif it's the old Chiltern bubble car it has electromagnets in the solebars and steel plates attached to each door extend down over the magnets which lock the doors in place.
If you think the NYMR are only doing 25mph between Whitby and Grosmont, I've a bridge to sell you....
Speaking as a Londoner, I strongly suspect that Darby is north of Watford.
Indeed. As is Derby. Cheers!
I'm so Glad Richard called 89001 'Aardvark' rather than 'Avocet'. When we were involved with CE works at NVR on Wednesday in the Summertime evenings we used to see her passing over the 'Meccano' bridge at Peterborough back when she was running regular services and only ever referred to her as 'Aardvark'.
I seem to recall "Badger" was another popular nickname. But I always preferred Aardvark. Had her for haulage a few times - but looking forward to seeing her back on the mainline.
The escalating costs of West Midlands new stations must be past the £150m mark.
What, for all of the proposed stations? You don't mean each station!
No, the whole cost of them altogether cost £275m.
Brexit should’ve given us benefits, but the government’s reluctance and ineptitude is there for all to see.
The delays and dithering is something else that is a constant in this country.
I’m not sure if you’ve covered the Tyne & Wear Metro, but the trains ordered ages ago are still not in service. They’re blaming Ukraine, more safety checks needed due to wet weather (?), more driver training needed (how much training do drivers need?) .
And they did of course have the chance to order from Newton Aycliffe down there road.
It’s hard to believe there aren’t people making a lot of money out of these stupid choices and unnecessary delays we see time and again.
Gosh, I must admit I thought the T&W Metro trains were coming into service now!
there where terminus when first built
Hmm. Interesting...... Tune in next week to find out.
And don't forget to email us with details of where you would like your mug sent for 89001.
Cheers!
Alstom is a french state owned company, they are not necessary interested in creating and maintaining jobs in UK !! Like to work, but UK does not have the money to buy them. Uk is wrong here, they are private investors mainly.The goverment does not have the financial ressouces., Uk has the highest debts in history...Greetings from Germany !
Alstom has enough capacities on the continent to produce after they bought Bombardier.
Re question: are they all candidates for the ‘Reopening Your Railway’ scheme?
Good suggestion. But is it correct? Tune in next week to find out!
The issue with the Jacobite steam train and the stock used is absolutely ridiculous. It’s been running this way for decades. Why tamper with a winning formula? No-one is likely to open a door when the train moving. We never had all this crap years ago.
Quiz answer, all part of "Reversing Beeching" reopenings?
Hmm, an interesting suggestion Simon. But is it the correct one? Tune in this Thursday.......
Having a steward in each coach is far better than CDL. The on board tourist sales support such staffing levels which couldn’t be justified by companies only providing a train manager and occasional tea trolley. No centralised comms to call the train manager but fire Marshall’s, first aiders, security guards on duty within earshot or visual range. 😎😇
In theory yes but it been shown in practice that the stewards arnt quite up to to the task safety wise
The HMRI have taken a different position, which has been well known for some time.
Is this the most intelligent podcast on the British rail industry today? For the Alstom Derby issue, see username - and a certain Swedish minister was extremely dumb there... and we know the rest...
Also the NYMR Whitby service only stops at one N.R. station, Whitby terminus, which is very wide, and they have to stop and phone NR for the token at Grosmont and Whitby.
Whereas the Jacobite stops at three N.R. stations, and passes through another 16 stations.
Thanks.
There are two NR stations, Sleights and Ruswarp, between Grosmont and Whitby.
Thanks
That's so kind Robert. Thank you for being a SuperFan! Richard