Duck arriving in all black makes his parallels/similarities with Diesel all the more blatant. It’s like how Tug described it - upon meeting each other, they had far more in common that you might have expected.
Wow, absolutely brilliant! Isn't it funny how Duck and Oliver were both originally numbered xx53? One piece of feedback though, is since you went as far as you did to research Duck, you could have shown the numbers of all possible engines that could be Duck once they got down to about 30 or so, and then cut them down as you go, kind of like in Diesel's research episode. Maybe next time? By the way, I find it so interesting that at least two 57xxs carried their GWR livery all the way through to 1955 - just before the new crest was introduced! After doing some quick googling of my own, it appears that a few never recieved BR livery! How facinating.
Yes, some engines (not many) carried pre-grouping liveries into the sixties I think. And yes that's a good point, I should have had all the numbers up when I counted the final 21,indidnt think of that at the time :)
Honestly, extended sandboxes being added would be somewhat reasonable. If they ever need Duck to go on the mainline, for example, they would likely be important for making trips up Gordan's hill. I don't know if they would be more or less important for seaside tracks, though, but maybe there could be something there.
Wow! After all this time, Duck is found to have a credible number. I cannot tell you how happy I am with this new information! Keep up the good work! R.I.P. Britt Allcroft and godspeed to her.
Really enjoyed this one and the fact that it’s taken such a long time to research I’m very impressed at the results in my personal headcanon Duck had a different number and swapped with the real 5741 whilst at Swindon for maintenance before coming to Sodor. But this is amazing can’t wait to see more videos from you! If you haven’t considered this already I would like to see a video covering Edward, Gordon and Henry as that would be really interesting. Your dedication to your research is inspiring and a credit to you
Here a Headcannon on How Duck is 5741, He was first built in Swindon As No.5762, he would wear this number until 1955, when his nameplates were mixed up The Real 5741 during his maintenance
So we can all unanimously agree that Oliver might’ve switched his number plates with another scrapped engine in order to draw BR off his scent. But the big question is how did Duck end up with 5741 if he hadn’t been to Wales?
My personal theory is that the identity swap occurred some time at the works when he was in for overhaul. It isn't unprecedented that locos swap parts and numbers throughout their lives.
I truly applaud you for this extremely extended research project! Duck is my favourite character of the series, and I am well and truly satisfied with this video finally solving this age-old mystery! You truly are my go-to for railway and locomotive history consulting. ❤🇳🇴🇬🇧
Amazing research as per usual. Your video's never fail to disappoint, solely due to how thorough they are, and it's for this reason that's encouraged me to discover photo's of engines such as 1453 and 1458, and find more information about both of their working lives and how that ties into the Railway Series itself without any contradictons. On that note, I figured I'd would share some of the images/photos and information I found pertaining to both throughout last year, and even early this year. Information wise, I discovered that sometime around July 1961, 1458 was failed due to an unknown mechanical fault and was placed in the cripple sidings at Oswestry. In the engine's absence, 1400 No.1440 was temporarily reallocated from Banbury and Gloucester to fill in for 1458, as usually, there'd be three 1400 tanks allocated to Oswestry (The other two Autotanks being No.1432 and No.1438). Once 1458 was repaired later that year in December, 1440 returned to usual duties at Banbury and Gloucester, until the 28th of December 1963, when the engine was withdrawn from service. The information present above is courtesy of Katerfelto on flickr. I've provided links to the images of both engine's below for you to read their respective descriptions, if you're curious as to where I got this information. www.flickr.com/photos/gone_with_regret/53180308590/in/photolist-2qixCRc-2oB5suL-2pJSeCg-2qbvWnY-2mszrm3-2q7XFQH-2pvE236-2n1geZV-2kkuLc3-2ib3xN1-2pVW7od-2pZs9KF-2j8Q6py-2gZAkdx-2pUaoNB-2pR6Rb4-2hjGT5d-2pmJzPk-2pWHipN-2oSpmD5-2oLRHkB-2pWDm5Z-2q1M7Si-2mZv4Lj-2oYftQc-2oYiXHj-2qcybiP-2pmNtA6-2qzPJQn-2q3kskB-2p2mYYf-2q85qMg-2pdCgST-2p2kHUd-2pRtZgQ/ www.flickr.com/photos/gone_with_regret/53180062784/in/photolist-2qixCRc-2oB5suL-2pJSeCg-2qbvWnY-2mszrm3-2q7XFQH-2pvE236-2n1geZV-2kkuLc3-2ib3xN1-2pVW7od-2pZs9KF-2j8Q6py-2gZAkdx-2pUaoNB-2pR6Rb4-2hjGT5d-2pmJzPk-2pWHipN-2oSpmD5-2oLRHkB-2pWDm5Z-2q1M7Si-2mZv4Lj-2oYftQc-2oYiXHj-2qcybiP-2pmNtA6-2qzPJQn-2q3kskB-2p2mYYf-2q85qMg-2pdCgST-2p2kHUd-2pRtZgQ/ Regarding the images I found of both 1453 and 1458, Two these of which show 1453 with a top feed, one of which being taken at Weymouth around 1956, and the other shows it on the 7th of May 1955, as it emerged from Bincombe Tunnel while pulling the mainline Autotrain between Weymouth and Yeovil. The remaining images of 1453 show it working alongside Autocoaches W237W and W242W on the Chalford Auto, the Autocoaches that would have worked with 1458 on the last day on the Chalford and Sharpness line. Speaking of 1458, I also found photo's of the engine at Smithfield's exchange sidings, at Welshpool in 1963. One of these photo's shows the engine alongside Welshpool and Llanfair railway No.1 (No.822) 'The Earl'. Said engine had been stored and later repaired at Oswestry works alongside sister engine no.2 (No.823) 'The Countess', by Oliver Veltom, British Railway's manager of the Oswestry Area, following the closure of the railway in 1956. The links to images and photo's are listed below: GWR 1400 No.1453 at Weymouth 1956 picclick.co.uk/Class-1400-No-1453-0-4-2-Loco-At-Weymouth-202340094778.html GWR No.1458 and No.822 at Welshpool Exchange Sidings www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223889109573 GWR No.1458 at Smithfield exchange sidings www.flickr.com/photos/gone_with_regret/53783275705/in/photolist-2qixCRc-2oB5suL-2pJSeCg-2qbvWnY-2mszrm3-2q7XFQH-2pvE236-2n1geZV-2kkuLc3-2ib3xN1-2pVW7od-2pZs9KF-2j8Q6py-2gZAkdx-2pUaoNB-2pR6Rb4-2hjGT5d-2pmJzPk-2pWHipN-2oSpmD5-2oLRHkB-2pWDm5Z-2q1M7Si-2mZv4Lj-2oYftQc-2oYiXHj-2qcybiP-2pmNtA6-2qzPJQn-2q3kskB-2p2mYYf-2q85qMg-2pdCgST-2p2kHUd-2pRtZgQ GWR No.1453 emerging from Bincombe Tunnel www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/50049853768/in/photolist-2n6wz6t-TAaXTJ-2phPE7g-2pJnJRd-2jfJzPf-2qdAxjZ-FNNnJH-2mExtUi-21Tzz9v-2qmCh4d-NXeFy9-5FpYmL-5KbUn7-rNYDCx-NXeDAS-7Dw1Je GWR No.1453 with Autocoach W237W (Image 1) www.flickr.com/Photoshop/unravelled/26780238445/in/album-72157667262759960 GWR No.1453 with Autocoach W237W (Image 2) www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/26712961721/in/album-72157667262759960/lightbox/ GWR 1400 No.1453 with Autocoach W242W mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-0-4-2T/i-C6vL2BQ/A
@@sodorislandmodels6332 Thank you so much for your kind response. I apologise for the fact that I wasn't able to respond to your comment earlier, for I had personal matters to attend to, plus I needed some time to compose myself after how ecstatic I felt upon being notified of your reply to my comment. Ever since your videos on Diesel and Jinty, I've been a huge fan of your channel and your work, whether it be your RWS research series, from your incredible edits, to your videos on rare railway series books, I'm always excited whether you upload. I also can't underestimate how I've been dying to present you with the information and images I've found of 1453 and 1458, solely for the fact that they are really hard to find or come across if you were casually browsing the internet for information on these engines and their working lives. However, I'd actually like to take the time to ask you a few questions related to Oliver and Isabel, but mostly Isabel, if you don't mind. The first of my questions is, in your research video on Oliver, you mentioned that two out of the 6 illustrations found in the story Escape, before Oliver receives his overhaul, show him without a top feed. However, I was only able to find only one illustration where Oliver lacks a top feed, that being in the second illustration of Escape, as all the other illustrations of the story, show Oliver with a top feed. As such, I'm curious as to what the second illustration you were potentially referring to. (Also, it's worth mentioning that one illustration found in the famous engine activity books also shows Oliver without a top feed. Said illustration shows Oliver working alongside Isabel, possibly on one of their old branch lines on the mainland) My second question is related to Isabel's livery. Isabel is notably painted maroon on both her front and rear ends, with the yellow and black lining found on her sides wrapping around both ends, as seen in both Escape as well as in the first illustration of Resource and Sagacity. However, all the images I've found so far of Autocoaches based at Gloucester on the Chalford Auto around 1964, have the front end of the coach (the one that faces the engine's bunker) as black/grey. The only exceptions I were able to find were in these two images taken alongside No.1424 and No.1409. Links to both images listed below: facebook.com/share/p/1QjiKKLHwg/ www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/53939831094 However, these photo's were listed as being taken around 1962, meaning that they were likely repainted with black or grey ends in 1963 or 1964. Even if there was an Autocoach allocated at Gloucester that wore the same livery as Isabel for its entire working life, it is probably unlikely that I would have worked alongside 1453 or 1458 while at any point. As such, this makes me wonder: is there was in fact one or several Autocoaches based at Gloucester on the Chalford Auto that wore the same livery carried by Isabel in the illustrations, until 1964? Or is this an illustration error, similar to how D5701 is incorrectly painted BR Blue during the events of Escape. My last question is, did Oliver and Isabel know and/or potentially worked each other prior to being allocated to Gloucester? My reasoning for us this because, in both Resource and Sagacity from Oliver the Western Engine and the famous engine's activity book illustration of Oliver, they both refer to Isabel is 'his' coach, a distinction that is strangely not made with Toad, as he's simply described as 'a' brake van and not specifically being owned by Oliver. This however is at odds with Sodor: Reading between the Lines, which refers to Isabel as 'an' Autocoach, with nothing stating that she explicitly belonged to Oliver. Admittedly though, I think the description in Reading Between the Lines is far more accurate, as I don't think certain engines are designated with specific coaches or other rolling stock, especially during the era of British Railways. The only way I think Isabel could be feasibly be referred to as Oliver's coach is to have her be the Autocoach that frequently worked alongside either 1453 and 1458 for a majority of their working lives and ultimately ended up at Gloucester. If that's the case, were there any autocoaches that worked alongside either 1453 or 1458 for the majority of their working lives, and who also later joined them at Gloucester? That's all the questions I have regarding Oliver and Isabel, but before I wrap up I'd like to mention a few things. Firstly, in terms of what characters I'd like to see in the next research video, personally I'd really love to see one on either Henrietta or Bloomer, especially Bloomer due to how allusive he is. But if those two aren't particularly ideal, I'd probably have to either say Toby or Mavis as they're two of my favourite characters. Secondly, I'd like to make clear that none of the questions I proposed above are meant to be a knock against your research at all, nor were they written with any form of malice or contempt towards your work, but rather were observations that I thought were worth addressing. Furthermore, I don't expect you to have immediate answers to all the questions I've listed above, as I can only imagine how tiring and stressful these videos must be to make, especially this video in particular on Duck, what with how it took you 7 years to research. Thirdly, I apologize for how long this comment is, however I don't think I'd be satisfied with the questions I've proposed to you about Oliver and Isabel, if I weren't so thorough. For this reason, I also apologise for any spelling errors seen throughout that I unfortunately didn't catch while writing this comment. Lastly, thank you for taking the time out of your day to reply to the comment I made earlier, as it really did brighten up my day, which was already good as it was. Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to whatever you've got planned for your next video and the rest of the channel for the remainder of 2025.
Hi mate, no problem at all, glad you like the videos :) The two photos I was referring to were the one of Oliver in the Quarry Siding and having the labels attached to him and his train. The famous engines colouring page could either be from Sodor or the mainland, the text isn't clear. I'll have to look into Isabel's end liveries, this was something I neglected to fully explore in my autocoach video. I thought it was getting a bit long for minor characters and something I could return to in my little western follow up video I'll put out this year 🙂 In regards to the possessive word, I think on Sodor it's fair to say Isabel is his as she forms part of his auto train, same with Duck's pair, and Annie and Clarabel for Thomas. On the mainland she would not have been 'his', except when he was hauling her. He would have had several months working with her in Gloucester when she would have been 'his', but he would have worked on other lines with other coaches too. Again I'll be looking into this more in my follow up video. Thanks for the kind words, all the east anglian stock are what I will be focusing on this year, but Bloomer is one I had a bit of a look into this year and got quite interested, so maybe!
@@sodorislandmodels6332Thank you so much for responding to all the queries I had in regards to both Oliver and Isabel. I'm also glad to know that you potentially plan on addressing the two questions I had about Isabel in a follow up video, especially in regards to my question about her livery. One more thing I should mention is that while I was browsing the illustrations of enterprising engines on the Thomas wiki, I noticed another detail on Isabel in the 5th illustration of escape, the one that shows her and Oliver working on the Chalford Branch, that being a strange white or light grey patch/design found near the front on her right side. I have no idea what it could be (perhaps it's her paint peeling/coming off, or an insignia. I doubt it's smoke though), or whether it will be useful for tracking down Isabel's number, but I figured it was worth mentioning. In regards to Oliver lacking a topfeed while hiding away on the old quarry branch, I've looked at said illustration from Escape, and it very much seems like he doesn't have one. However, upon further inspection I've also noticed a weird shape situated between his dome and funnel in the same illustration that could very well be a topfeed, though I could also be wrong in this assumption. On the subject of the abandoned quarry branch, I'm curious to know where it's located in relation to the UK and whether it occurred early or later on during Oliver's escape to Sodor. In terms of what RWS research you have planned next, I'm excited to hear that you'll be planning on covering all the rolling stock from East Anglia this year, which I presume will not only include Toby, Henrietta and Elsie, but also Mavis, 1020 and 8783. On the subject of Toby, I was able to find this image LNER J70 No.127 with the number 8221. Link to the source of said image is listed below: transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-LONDON-NORTH-EASTERN-RAILWAY/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-LNER-ORIGIN/i-8jLSFHN However, I've yet to find any photos of the engine with the number 68221 online. As for Bloomer, I'm glad to know that you'll cover him at some point in the future, along with all the other characters in the Railway Series. I think Bloomer will be quite interesting to research as despite being so allusive, we actually know quite a lot about his history. For one thing, Bloomer is specifically a Large Bloomer built by Sharp, Stewart & co. in Glasgow, Scotland in 1851 between August and December, thus narrowing it down to ten engines that could be Bloomer. Of these 10 engines, we can exclude No.248, as Bloomer is explicitly described as being male, and No.248 was named after the greek Goddess 'Hecate'. From here, it becomes difficult to pin point which of the remaining 9 engines is Bloomer, as there is very little information and photographic evidence of the LNWR Bloomers built in 1851, especially for someone like me who uses sources found online. Personally speaking, I think a good candidate for Bloomer is No.249 'Aeolus' as this engine suffered a boiler explosion on the 4th July 1861 at Easenhall bridge, due to corroded boiler plates, thus requiring the engine to be rebuilt. This rebuild of No.249 looks extremely similar to Wilbert's model of Bloomer. I've provided links to two images of No.249 following its rebuild for you to see: chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/steam-locos-of-a-leisurely-era-mcconnell-2-2-2s-bloomers/large-bloomer-249-lnwrs-org-uk/ wolvertonpast.blogspot.com/2010/10/bloomers.html?m=1 This is merely a guess though, and I'd love to see what real life engine you believe Bloomer to be at a later date. Before I wrap up, I would like to inform you that I still have plenty of photos of Autotanks 1453 and 1458 that I managed to find throughout last year and early this year. If you'd like me to share said photos with you, just let me know, and I'll be more than happy to provide you the links to said images of the engines. Also, if at any point I come across more information or photos related to either engine or for other real-life counterparts of Thomas characters, then I'll be sure to inform you as soon as possible. Regardless, please enjoy the rest of your day. I'm looking forward to what your channel has to offer at a later date.
Hi there, The sign on Isabel is the overhead live wires sign that was often seen on engines - if you have a look at my boco video I discuss them a bit there. Oliver's top feed - yes, there is a shape there but to me it doesn't look like a top feed. I did go back and forth with that illustration, but thought it might just be a shadow or something. Thanks, I'm looking forward to bloomer and Toby. I am snowed under right now but would like to get to work on them by the second half of the year. I have a massive project I want to finish by the end of January which will be going down to the wire! I will be doing a follow up video on the Little Western characters with some more information this year too, so 1453 images may be useful, thanks :)
Once again, your RWS Research Videos never ceases to amaze me. Who would've knew Duck was GWR No. 5753? Potential Characters for research: Thomas (Number) Edward (Number) Henry (Is he really a Black Five)
For Thomas, we know he's No. 106. Build date aligns, ans never worked with trucks prior to ariving on Sodor, unlike 105, the other only other E2 around at the time.
There is a very slim chance that Henry is considered a Black Five despite him looking like such. Despite his rebuild, the fact he is of LNER origins already cancels out the possibility of him being an actual Black Five unless he was actually replaced as the "2 Henrys" theory puts it. The possibility of such a rebuild is slim to none, so the most plausible(?) answer is to have some bits of Henry salvaged and reworked into Black Five Henry I have a headcannon that it is for this reason why Henry isn't listed among the 18 Black Fives preserved today. As Unlucky Tug puts it, he isn't really a Black Five but just heavily resembling one
I like to think that Montague was what awdry called duck before the kids nicknamed him duck. the way he introduces himself sounds like it references this.
Well done on the research of duck, it was very in depth and cool to see! Quick question (I might have missed this) was the engine ever scrapped / withdrawn?
In the 50s as well as the national coal board and London Transport several panniers were transferred to other BR regions as well as the WR. So it's logical that one could end up on the NWR
I was gonna mention the auto fittings, but did think it possible for a Crovan's Gate mod or maybe he just uses them traditionally. I don't recall an instance of him reversing with his coaches and Donald even pulled a pair. It did make me wonder what number would Duck be if he were a 6400? Was 5753 ever Scrapped?
I have the same model pannier as the reverend. My dad found it in a box in the basement of a hospital when I was a kid in the 90s. My brother and I also called it duck after the character in the TV show never know we had the same model as the original
Awesome video, was looking forward to this one for a long time! Any chance you could do a short followup to explain if Duck and the real 5741 ever crossed paths, say during overhaul, thus creating an opportunity for a number swap? Also, completely random question: did Duck ever work alongside 7802 Bradley Manor at Paddington?
Thank you! Yes I'll be addressing some more points in a follow up. I don't think k many Manors ever worked around London so I don't know for sure but I think it is unlikely
the manors were allocated to devon and cornwall with them being reallocated to the cambrian in the early 50s, one manor was also based out of tyseley shed
Me and a user named Mark Gilkison came to a different conclusion. - The idea is that Duck was allocated at Paddington until at _least_ 1955. Going off that and the fact Duck has circular cab windows, this narrows it down to just 5 engines - 5717, 7722, 7791, 8743, and 9700. - Duck has always been depicted with welded side tanks, so this eliminates both 7722 and 8743. - 9700 was originally numbered 8700, but was modified into a prototype of the 9700 class in 1934. (It was at this point it was renumbered.) - Duck is most commonly drawn with a green safety valve cover, eliminating number 7791. This lines up with what Awdry said, as 5717 was built in Spring 1929. ...now for those of you who know a lot about the 57xx class, you'll notice a problem with the suggestion of 5717 being the real engine: it was built by the North British Locomotive Company... which is in Scotland. But here's where things get interesting: The first 50 units of the 57xx class (which 5717 was a part of) had been built rather barebones. While this batch of engines had vacuum brakes, they were _not_ equipped with steam heating, nor did they have automatic train control. Eventually, this was rectified, as the GWR had all these engines eventually equipped with these features. And this work would have been done at Swindon. So while splitting hairs, it _could_ be argued that Duck was _technically_ built at Swindon. Another thing to note is that both 5717 and 5741 would have had brass number plates, whereas 5753 had iron number plates. This would have made the number swap much more apparent to workers. But as you've alluded to, even with the clues we have been given, so many 57xx class engines were built that it becomes impossible to nail down a specific number without running into some sort of issue. This is not helped by the fact Awdry has declared _all_ illustrations to be not cannon, and are instead to be treated as visual aids. I don't have access to information regarding who was stationed where and at what time, so there may be details about 5717 that I don't know of that would eliminate it.
Well, you beat me to it and found the real Duck. So GWR 5753, familiar with Southall. This was one of the engines I narrowed down to being a possible Duck as, just like you, I was able to rule out the 77xx, 87xx, 97xx and 67xx subclasses of the 57xx Class. I also kept a list of which of these engines were at Old Oak Common the same time as King James I. I came around to the possible engines being 5715, 5717, 5737, 5744, 5745, 5751, 5752, 5753, 5754, 5757, 5758, 5759, 5760, 5761, 5762, 5763, 5764, 5765, 5766, 5772, 5773, 5779, 5798 and 5799. Of course, all my research was done online as, living in America, books that go into detail about a single class of British locomotive are very hard to come by. Here's one for the books! (Pun intended) I do like the idea that the last two digits of Duck's number might be a reference to the birth year of Awdry's daughter who christened Duck. I have been brainstorming a model to dedicate to Britt Allcroft and I have considered her birth year being the number to put on it. I sometimes also think Duck is a 64xx Class in some alternate universe to have some fun with how he was first illustrated as. Bravo to you once again!
Maybe for your next video, you could try finding out which LNER A1/A3 is Gordon. My personal headcannon is that he is Great Northern because if you combine the two words and rework them a bit you get Gordon.
@danielsellers8707 Nah he is a prototype in RWS canon (I'm not talking about the AUs, hell I've made Gordon as a Scotch Arthur) and has different footplate and square buffers.
@@diamond_pacific8093 He did not classify as the A0, hell, that name doesn't even make sense! Prototype would still be classified as the A1 Class even if it was a diffrent class (which it isn't).
I'm still amazed how you're able to find these engines. but I still prefer duck being built at the north British locomotive company in Scotland. As I believe it could provide more story potential. I still didn't know that duck was auto fitted. It was definitely something I was playing to do in my own stories but now that I know it's in official Canon I might as well make sure I do it. amazing video
Glad to see I had the right idea with Old Oak Common, but the only deduction I could make was Duck being 5764, which is preserved as London Transport L95 at Severn Valley. Seven years… wow… I have no right to ask, but can I use 5753 for my Duck? It just makes no sense for Duck to switch out number plates for whatever reason…
I wonder how those rather unfortunate members of the railway who hold histories you've whipped the tarp off must feel, they must have kept their secrets for a reason.
Anyone got any idea why Duck swapped his number with 5741? With Oliver it makes sense as he was escaping from the scrap men and it might have helped cover his identity, but what was Duck’s reason for this?
@@Alcofoamerso that would mean in 1958 Duck must have stolen a scrapped steam engine’s number or something! And that means the real Duck & Oliver are still around in real life!
After watching the video, I might have a theory the 57xx start withdrawn in 1956 and Duck was already on sodor in 1955 just short of year but maybe just maybe Duck was the first of his class to be withdrawn ! Especially the same year the Beeching’s axe was form. So for make way for the new modern diesel, Duck was withdrawn ! But however instead of scrap they decide to put him up for sale just hoping maybe someone will buy him after all the 57xx are the most numerous class of all British Railway over 863 are built. And also said London Transport and National Coal Board did purchase some of the 57xx when they are withdrawn, the one who showed interest was not another than sir Topham hat who definitely need a new station pilot at Tidmouth after Percy was sent to the harbour after that the rest is History, and after all of that, I may have another theory that’s why Duck hate Diesel ! When they first met duck was clearly didn’t trust him. Anyone ever found out why I may have a clue it’s because Duck was already replaced by a diesel before came to Sodor and maybe before go to Sodor, he and that diesel have a heated argument each other ! So that is my theory what do you think?
Very interesting ideas for duck and Oliver too but I just want to say would’ve been nice. If both classes they carried all those numbers were preserved? if they were then they could be used as flagship locomotives for Wilbert Awdry.
I don’t know if you have realised but that station in the thumb nail is small station called parkend on the dean forest railway it’s my local heritage railway thank you
@ I look forward to seeing it. In all due honesty, the reason Duck changed his number is why I can’t see him as anything other than the real 5741: unlike Oliver, he didn’t have a reason to do so. Here’s hoping your theory provides a good enough reason
@@sodorislandmodels6332i believe it’s because the real 5741 worked in a colliery in wales for all its life, while Duck claimed to have worked in Paddington station, and the illustrators were provided photos of 5741 for reference, which Awdry had to chalk up to Duck not being the engine of the same number
@@randombread7535 It is a fair point, because in universe the Skarloey and Talyllyn engines are separate and so are their backstories thing is, since Rusty's old working life wasn't ever told, we don't really have any leads
You have hurt my soul with that edited cab on the thumbnail (not really). This should be interesting. Of course, there are probably a hundred 5700s/8750s that worked at paddington/old oak common and technically its not confirmed to my knowledge that Monty was working out of old oak before being sent to sodor. If he was, there's a good chance he'd have been one of the few 5700s to be painted in BR lined black since that was a special livery only those at Old Oak had. All that is to be said i am interested in this videos findings.
@@sodorislandmodels6332thank you so much for this. In regards to tracking down pip and Emma. Given the year of their first appearance. They would have likely to have been western region high speed trains. They have paxman valenta engines so that means they must have been western region hsts and they are also unreliable at the time. They can't be the Ladbrooke grove crash or the Hatfield crash as they are still around after that date. They claim to have been in the first batch manufactured. Hope this helps with your research. Yet another great video as always
Excellent research as always. Pretty interesting that the number that best fits the bill isn't that far off from 5741!
Ahhh thanks
And, @TheUnluckyTug_official , we can apply your theory the Duck swapped his number plate of 5753 with the real 5741 into good use!
🙂
my
My my
Duck arriving in all black makes his parallels/similarities with Diesel all the more blatant. It’s like how Tug described it - upon meeting each other, they had far more in common that you might have expected.
I didn't think of that
The 8th RWS Research, being about the number 8 engine himself? Quite fitting.
Yes!
3:11 i squealed so loudly seeing my beloved. 9466... but enough about that.
thanks for doing gods work as always my guy.
Thanks so much!
Wow, absolutely brilliant! Isn't it funny how Duck and Oliver were both originally numbered xx53?
One piece of feedback though, is since you went as far as you did to research Duck, you could have shown the numbers of all possible engines that could be Duck once they got down to about 30 or so, and then cut them down as you go, kind of like in Diesel's research episode. Maybe next time?
By the way, I find it so interesting that at least two 57xxs carried their GWR livery all the way through to 1955 - just before the new crest was introduced! After doing some quick googling of my own, it appears that a few never recieved BR livery! How facinating.
Yes, some engines (not many) carried pre-grouping liveries into the sixties I think. And yes that's a good point, I should have had all the numbers up when I counted the final 21,indidnt think of that at the time :)
Fitting how episode 8 is about the NWR's number 8.
RIP Britt Allcroft
And it was released on the eighth 😁
You know it’s convenient that you figure out Oliver‘s number is 1453 and now you found out Duck number is 5753. How convenient is that?
Such a coincidence!
The last two digits of both their numbers are 53 how bizarre is that
So strange
No wonder they got along . not just the same railway but almost the same number 😅
😁
Honestly, extended sandboxes being added would be somewhat reasonable. If they ever need Duck to go on the mainline, for example, they would likely be important for making trips up Gordan's hill. I don't know if they would be more or less important for seaside tracks, though, but maybe there could be something there.
Yeah, good points :)
This is my best guess, but I'm thinking the sandboxes are taken off of, or at least styled after something like the 1661, mainly down to its size.
Maybe!
Because of this video I bet Unlucky Tug will make a Sodor finest adaptation of Duck’s origin story 😂.
Great video mate!
Thanks
Wow! After all this time, Duck is found to have a credible number. I cannot tell you how happy I am with this new information!
Keep up the good work!
R.I.P. Britt Allcroft and godspeed to her.
Thank you very much!
RIP Britt
R.I.P Britt Alcroft
Rip
Very good. I know the tv series is not down to specific locomotive detail, so I'm sure finding murdoch exact is unlikely, but it would be neat.
I'll look at murdoch at some point yes
Really enjoyed this one and the fact that it’s taken such a long time to research I’m very impressed at the results in my personal headcanon Duck had a different number and swapped with the real 5741 whilst at Swindon for maintenance before coming to Sodor. But this is amazing can’t wait to see more videos from you! If you haven’t considered this already I would like to see a video covering Edward, Gordon and Henry as that would be really interesting. Your dedication to your research is inspiring and a credit to you
Thanks so much, I will do them at some point
The 1970s Mainline Railways 57xx (made in Hong Kong when it was British) has a top feed boiler.
Oh right
Here a Headcannon on How Duck is 5741, He was first built in Swindon As No.5762, he would wear this number until 1955, when his nameplates were mixed up The Real 5741 during his maintenance
Cool
So does that mean that Duck stole that number from a scrapped engine & his real number was 5762 & not 5741?!
Wait a minute! I thought he was 5762! So he’s 5753
He is
I personally like to think that Duck gained his sandboxes when he was “properly washed and mended” during A Close Shave
He has them in Domeless Engines:-)
That's a good idea but he had them all the way through duck and the diesel engine 🙂
@ That’s fair. It’s not a perfect theory, I admit that. It’s more of a head canon than anything :)
I like it :)
So we can all unanimously agree that Oliver might’ve switched his number plates with another scrapped engine in order to draw BR off his scent. But the big question is how did Duck end up with 5741 if he hadn’t been to Wales?
I mean, Brecon is in Wales...
My personal theory is that the identity swap occurred some time at the works when he was in for overhaul. It isn't unprecedented that locos swap parts and numbers throughout their lives.
Yeah nice idea I'll look into this in a follow up video
Probably taken off the trash pile and bolted to him before he made it to Sodor.
Maybe.
Could be
I truly applaud you for this extremely extended research project! Duck is my favourite character of the series, and I am well and truly satisfied with this video finally solving this age-old mystery! You truly are my go-to for railway and locomotive history consulting. ❤🇳🇴🇬🇧
That's veyy kind thank you
@ You are the most welcome! I too have a bit of a thirst for knowledge.
That's great!
@@sodorislandmodels6332 😉
🙂
So both of The Fat Controller's Great Western Engines originally had numbers that ended in 53?
Funny coincidence isn't it!
Amazing research as per usual. Your video's never fail to disappoint, solely due to how thorough they are, and it's for this reason that's encouraged me to discover photo's of engines such as 1453 and 1458, and find more information about both of their working lives and how that ties into the Railway Series itself without any contradictons.
On that note, I figured I'd would share some of the images/photos and information I found pertaining to both throughout last year, and even early this year.
Information wise, I discovered that sometime around July 1961, 1458 was failed due to an unknown mechanical fault and was placed in the cripple sidings at Oswestry.
In the engine's absence, 1400 No.1440 was temporarily reallocated from Banbury and Gloucester to fill in for 1458, as usually, there'd be three 1400 tanks allocated to Oswestry (The other two Autotanks being No.1432 and No.1438). Once 1458 was repaired later that year in December, 1440 returned to usual duties at Banbury and Gloucester, until the 28th of December 1963, when the engine was withdrawn from service.
The information present above is courtesy of Katerfelto on flickr. I've provided links to the images of both engine's below for you to read their respective descriptions, if you're curious as to where I got this information.
www.flickr.com/photos/gone_with_regret/53180308590/in/photolist-2qixCRc-2oB5suL-2pJSeCg-2qbvWnY-2mszrm3-2q7XFQH-2pvE236-2n1geZV-2kkuLc3-2ib3xN1-2pVW7od-2pZs9KF-2j8Q6py-2gZAkdx-2pUaoNB-2pR6Rb4-2hjGT5d-2pmJzPk-2pWHipN-2oSpmD5-2oLRHkB-2pWDm5Z-2q1M7Si-2mZv4Lj-2oYftQc-2oYiXHj-2qcybiP-2pmNtA6-2qzPJQn-2q3kskB-2p2mYYf-2q85qMg-2pdCgST-2p2kHUd-2pRtZgQ/
www.flickr.com/photos/gone_with_regret/53180062784/in/photolist-2qixCRc-2oB5suL-2pJSeCg-2qbvWnY-2mszrm3-2q7XFQH-2pvE236-2n1geZV-2kkuLc3-2ib3xN1-2pVW7od-2pZs9KF-2j8Q6py-2gZAkdx-2pUaoNB-2pR6Rb4-2hjGT5d-2pmJzPk-2pWHipN-2oSpmD5-2oLRHkB-2pWDm5Z-2q1M7Si-2mZv4Lj-2oYftQc-2oYiXHj-2qcybiP-2pmNtA6-2qzPJQn-2q3kskB-2p2mYYf-2q85qMg-2pdCgST-2p2kHUd-2pRtZgQ/
Regarding the images I found of both 1453 and 1458, Two these of which show 1453 with a top feed, one of which being taken at Weymouth around 1956, and the other shows it on the 7th of May 1955, as it emerged from Bincombe Tunnel while pulling the mainline Autotrain between Weymouth and Yeovil.
The remaining images of 1453 show it working alongside Autocoaches W237W and W242W on the Chalford Auto, the Autocoaches that would have worked with 1458 on the last day on the Chalford and Sharpness line.
Speaking of 1458, I also found photo's of the engine at Smithfield's exchange sidings, at Welshpool in 1963. One of these photo's shows the engine alongside Welshpool and Llanfair railway No.1 (No.822) 'The Earl'.
Said engine had been stored and later repaired at Oswestry works alongside sister engine no.2 (No.823) 'The Countess', by Oliver Veltom, British Railway's manager of the Oswestry Area, following the closure of the railway in 1956.
The links to images and photo's are listed below:
GWR 1400 No.1453 at Weymouth 1956
picclick.co.uk/Class-1400-No-1453-0-4-2-Loco-At-Weymouth-202340094778.html
GWR No.1458 and No.822 at Welshpool Exchange Sidings
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223889109573
GWR No.1458 at Smithfield exchange sidings
www.flickr.com/photos/gone_with_regret/53783275705/in/photolist-2qixCRc-2oB5suL-2pJSeCg-2qbvWnY-2mszrm3-2q7XFQH-2pvE236-2n1geZV-2kkuLc3-2ib3xN1-2pVW7od-2pZs9KF-2j8Q6py-2gZAkdx-2pUaoNB-2pR6Rb4-2hjGT5d-2pmJzPk-2pWHipN-2oSpmD5-2oLRHkB-2pWDm5Z-2q1M7Si-2mZv4Lj-2oYftQc-2oYiXHj-2qcybiP-2pmNtA6-2qzPJQn-2q3kskB-2p2mYYf-2q85qMg-2pdCgST-2p2kHUd-2pRtZgQ
GWR No.1453 emerging from Bincombe Tunnel
www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/50049853768/in/photolist-2n6wz6t-TAaXTJ-2phPE7g-2pJnJRd-2jfJzPf-2qdAxjZ-FNNnJH-2mExtUi-21Tzz9v-2qmCh4d-NXeFy9-5FpYmL-5KbUn7-rNYDCx-NXeDAS-7Dw1Je
GWR No.1453 with Autocoach W237W (Image 1)
www.flickr.com/Photoshop/unravelled/26780238445/in/album-72157667262759960
GWR No.1453 with Autocoach W237W (Image 2)
www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/26712961721/in/album-72157667262759960/lightbox/
GWR 1400 No.1453 with Autocoach W242W
mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-0-4-2T/i-C6vL2BQ/A
That is all really great stuff! 😁
@@sodorislandmodels6332 Thank you so much for your kind response. I apologise for the fact that I wasn't able to respond to your comment earlier, for I had personal matters to attend to, plus I needed some time to compose myself after how ecstatic I felt upon being notified of your reply to my comment.
Ever since your videos on Diesel and Jinty, I've been a huge fan of your channel and your work, whether it be your RWS research series, from your incredible edits, to your videos on rare railway series books, I'm always excited whether you upload.
I also can't underestimate how I've been dying to present you with the information and images I've found of 1453 and 1458, solely for the fact that they are really hard to find or come across if you were casually browsing the internet for information on these engines and their working lives.
However, I'd actually like to take the time to ask you a few questions related to Oliver and Isabel, but mostly Isabel, if you don't mind.
The first of my questions is, in your research video on Oliver, you mentioned that two out of the 6 illustrations found in the story Escape, before Oliver receives his overhaul, show him without a top feed.
However, I was only able to find only one illustration where Oliver lacks a top feed, that being in the second illustration of Escape, as all the other illustrations of the story, show Oliver with a top feed. As such, I'm curious as to what the second illustration you were potentially referring to.
(Also, it's worth mentioning that one illustration found in the famous engine activity books also shows Oliver without a top feed. Said illustration shows Oliver working alongside Isabel, possibly on one of their old branch lines on the mainland)
My second question is related to Isabel's livery. Isabel is notably painted maroon on both her front and rear ends, with the yellow and black lining found on her sides wrapping around both ends, as seen in both Escape as well as in the first illustration of Resource and Sagacity.
However, all the images I've found so far of Autocoaches based at Gloucester on the Chalford Auto around 1964, have the front end of the coach (the one that faces the engine's bunker) as black/grey. The only exceptions I were able to find were in these two images taken alongside No.1424 and No.1409. Links to both images listed below:
facebook.com/share/p/1QjiKKLHwg/
www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/53939831094
However, these photo's were listed as being taken around 1962, meaning that they were likely repainted with black or grey ends in 1963 or 1964. Even if there was an Autocoach allocated at Gloucester that wore the same livery as Isabel for its entire working life, it is probably unlikely that I would have worked alongside 1453 or 1458 while at any point.
As such, this makes me wonder: is there was in fact one or several Autocoaches based at Gloucester on the Chalford Auto that wore the same livery carried by Isabel in the illustrations, until 1964? Or is this an illustration error, similar to how D5701 is incorrectly painted BR Blue during the events of Escape.
My last question is, did Oliver and Isabel know and/or potentially worked each other prior to being allocated to Gloucester?
My reasoning for us this because, in both Resource and Sagacity from Oliver the Western Engine and the famous engine's activity book illustration of Oliver, they both refer to Isabel is 'his' coach, a distinction that is strangely not made with Toad, as he's simply described as 'a' brake van and not specifically being owned by Oliver.
This however is at odds with Sodor: Reading between the Lines, which refers to Isabel as 'an' Autocoach, with nothing stating that she explicitly belonged to Oliver. Admittedly though, I think the description in Reading Between the Lines is far more accurate, as I don't think certain engines are designated with specific coaches or other rolling stock, especially during the era of British Railways.
The only way I think Isabel could be feasibly be referred to as Oliver's coach is to have her be the Autocoach that frequently worked alongside either 1453 and 1458 for a majority of their working lives and ultimately ended up at Gloucester.
If that's the case, were there any autocoaches that worked alongside either 1453 or 1458 for the majority of their working lives, and who also later joined them at Gloucester?
That's all the questions I have regarding Oliver and Isabel, but before I wrap up I'd like to mention a few things. Firstly, in terms of what characters I'd like to see in the next research video, personally I'd really love to see one on either Henrietta or Bloomer, especially Bloomer due to how allusive he is.
But if those two aren't particularly ideal, I'd probably have to either say Toby or Mavis as they're two of my favourite characters.
Secondly, I'd like to make clear that none of the questions I proposed above are meant to be a knock against your research at all, nor were they written with any form of malice or contempt towards your work, but rather were observations that I thought were worth addressing.
Furthermore, I don't expect you to have immediate answers to all the questions I've listed above, as I can only imagine how tiring and stressful these videos must be to make, especially this video in particular on Duck, what with how it took you 7 years to research.
Thirdly, I apologize for how long this comment is, however I don't think I'd be satisfied with the questions I've proposed to you about Oliver and Isabel, if I weren't so thorough. For this reason, I also apologise for any spelling errors seen throughout that I unfortunately didn't catch while writing this comment.
Lastly, thank you for taking the time out of your day to reply to the comment I made earlier, as it really did brighten up my day, which was already good as it was.
Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to whatever you've got planned for your next video and the rest of the channel for the remainder of 2025.
Hi mate, no problem at all, glad you like the videos :)
The two photos I was referring to were the one of Oliver in the Quarry Siding and having the labels attached to him and his train. The famous engines colouring page could either be from Sodor or the mainland, the text isn't clear.
I'll have to look into Isabel's end liveries, this was something I neglected to fully explore in my autocoach video. I thought it was getting a bit long for minor characters and something I could return to in my little western follow up video I'll put out this year 🙂
In regards to the possessive word, I think on Sodor it's fair to say Isabel is his as she forms part of his auto train, same with Duck's pair, and Annie and Clarabel for Thomas. On the mainland she would not have been 'his', except when he was hauling her. He would have had several months working with her in Gloucester when she would have been 'his', but he would have worked on other lines with other coaches too. Again I'll be looking into this more in my follow up video.
Thanks for the kind words, all the east anglian stock are what I will be focusing on this year, but Bloomer is one I had a bit of a look into this year and got quite interested, so maybe!
@@sodorislandmodels6332Thank you so much for responding to all the queries I had in regards to both Oliver and Isabel. I'm also glad to know that you potentially plan on addressing the two questions I had about Isabel in a follow up video, especially in regards to my question about her livery.
One more thing I should mention is that while I was browsing the illustrations of enterprising engines on the Thomas wiki, I noticed another detail on Isabel in the 5th illustration of escape, the one that shows her and Oliver working on the Chalford Branch, that being a strange white or light grey patch/design found near the front on her right side. I have no idea what it could be (perhaps it's her paint peeling/coming off, or an insignia. I doubt it's smoke though), or whether it will be useful for tracking down Isabel's number, but I figured it was worth mentioning.
In regards to Oliver lacking a topfeed while hiding away on the old quarry branch, I've looked at said illustration from Escape, and it very much seems like he doesn't have one. However, upon further inspection I've also noticed a weird shape situated between his dome and funnel in the same illustration that could very well be a topfeed, though I could also be wrong in this assumption. On the subject of the abandoned quarry branch, I'm curious to know where it's located in relation to the UK and whether it occurred early or later on during Oliver's escape to Sodor.
In terms of what RWS research you have planned next, I'm excited to hear that you'll be planning on covering all the rolling stock from East Anglia this year, which I presume will not only include Toby, Henrietta and Elsie, but also Mavis, 1020 and 8783.
On the subject of Toby, I was able to find this image LNER J70 No.127 with the number 8221. Link to the source of said image is listed below:
transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-LONDON-NORTH-EASTERN-RAILWAY/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-LNER-ORIGIN/i-8jLSFHN
However, I've yet to find any photos of the engine with the number 68221 online.
As for Bloomer, I'm glad to know that you'll cover him at some point in the future, along with all the other characters in the Railway Series.
I think Bloomer will be quite interesting to research as despite being so allusive, we actually know quite a lot about his history. For one thing, Bloomer is specifically a Large Bloomer built by Sharp, Stewart & co. in Glasgow, Scotland in 1851 between August and December, thus narrowing it down to ten engines that could be Bloomer.
Of these 10 engines, we can exclude No.248, as Bloomer is explicitly described as being male, and No.248 was named after the greek Goddess 'Hecate'. From here, it becomes difficult to pin point which of the remaining 9 engines is Bloomer, as there is very little information and photographic evidence of the LNWR Bloomers built in 1851, especially for someone like me who uses sources found online.
Personally speaking, I think a good candidate for Bloomer is No.249 'Aeolus' as this engine suffered a boiler explosion on the 4th July 1861 at Easenhall bridge, due to corroded boiler plates, thus requiring the engine to be rebuilt. This rebuild of No.249 looks extremely similar to Wilbert's model of Bloomer. I've provided links to two images of No.249 following its rebuild for you to see:
chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/steam-locos-of-a-leisurely-era-mcconnell-2-2-2s-bloomers/large-bloomer-249-lnwrs-org-uk/
wolvertonpast.blogspot.com/2010/10/bloomers.html?m=1
This is merely a guess though, and I'd love to see what real life engine you believe Bloomer to be at a later date.
Before I wrap up, I would like to inform you that I still have plenty of photos of Autotanks 1453 and 1458 that I managed to find throughout last year and early this year. If you'd like me to share said photos with you, just let me know, and I'll be more than happy to provide you the links to said images of the engines. Also, if at any point I come across more information or photos related to either engine or for other real-life counterparts of Thomas characters, then I'll be sure to inform you as soon as possible.
Regardless, please enjoy the rest of your day. I'm looking forward to what your channel has to offer at a later date.
Hi there,
The sign on Isabel is the overhead live wires sign that was often seen on engines - if you have a look at my boco video I discuss them a bit there.
Oliver's top feed - yes, there is a shape there but to me it doesn't look like a top feed. I did go back and forth with that illustration, but thought it might just be a shadow or something.
Thanks, I'm looking forward to bloomer and Toby. I am snowed under right now but would like to get to work on them by the second half of the year. I have a massive project I want to finish by the end of January which will be going down to the wire!
I will be doing a follow up video on the Little Western characters with some more information this year too, so 1453 images may be useful, thanks :)
Once again, your RWS Research Videos never ceases to amaze me. Who would've knew Duck was GWR No. 5753?
Potential Characters for research:
Thomas (Number)
Edward (Number)
Henry (Is he really a Black Five)
For Thomas, we know he's No. 106. Build date aligns, ans never worked with trucks prior to ariving on Sodor, unlike 105, the other only other E2 around at the time.
@thepolishgenerator5915 oh yeah, I forgot... 😅
I'll do those at some point, yes :)
There is a very slim chance that Henry is considered a Black Five despite him looking like such. Despite his rebuild, the fact he is of LNER origins already cancels out the possibility of him being an actual Black Five unless he was actually replaced as the "2 Henrys" theory puts it. The possibility of such a rebuild is slim to none, so the most plausible(?) answer is to have some bits of Henry salvaged and reworked into Black Five Henry
I have a headcannon that it is for this reason why Henry isn't listed among the 18 Black Fives preserved today. As Unlucky Tug puts it, he isn't really a Black Five but just heavily resembling one
Yes
I like to think that Montague was what awdry called duck before the kids nicknamed him duck. the way he introduces himself sounds like it references this.
Even if it was a nickname or in joke, I think the duck is a very suitable name. Wilbert could’ve used it from the start.
Nice, yeah
My guy could probably figure out the origin basis of S.C.Ruffey at this point.
Haha 😁
That would be a crazy idea lol
In my list of research topics he's the only one listed as impossible haha
@@sodorislandmodels6332 sheizen,welp he shall remain that one random rusty 7 plank wagon
Given he's privately owned, he was probably built specifically for the company.
Wow, you put so much effort into all this research, thanks so much!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Well done on the research of duck, it was very in depth and cool to see! Quick question (I might have missed this) was the engine ever scrapped / withdrawn?
It doesn’t say I wish it did
In real life, according to BR Database 5753 was withdrawn around 1959 and scrapped in 1960
I say in the video 5753 was withdrawn by br in 1959
In the 50s as well as the national coal board and London Transport several panniers were transferred to other BR regions as well as the WR. So it's logical that one could end up on the NWR
Yeah, true :)
I would have never have seen those tank steps before, nor the handle bars on his cab. Good eye.
Cheers :)
holy damn 7 yrs! You've outdone yourself this time mate
Thanks so much
I was gonna mention the auto fittings, but did think it possible for a Crovan's Gate mod or maybe he just uses them traditionally. I don't recall an instance of him reversing with his coaches and Donald even pulled a pair. It did make me wonder what number would Duck be if he were a 6400?
Was 5753 ever Scrapped?
I'm not sure about the 6400,and yet it was scrapped in 59
I have the same model pannier as the reverend. My dad found it in a box in the basement of a hospital when I was a kid in the 90s. My brother and I also called it duck after the character in the TV show never know we had the same model as the original
That's really cool!
Awesome video, was looking forward to this one for a long time! Any chance you could do a short followup to explain if Duck and the real 5741 ever crossed paths, say during overhaul, thus creating an opportunity for a number swap?
Also, completely random question: did Duck ever work alongside 7802 Bradley Manor at Paddington?
Thank you! Yes I'll be addressing some more points in a follow up. I don't think k many Manors ever worked around London so I don't know for sure but I think it is unlikely
the manors were allocated to devon and cornwall with them being reallocated to the cambrian in the early 50s, one manor was also based out of tyseley shed
Yep
Me and a user named Mark Gilkison came to a different conclusion.
- The idea is that Duck was allocated at Paddington until at _least_ 1955. Going off that and the fact Duck has circular cab windows, this narrows it down to just 5 engines - 5717, 7722, 7791, 8743, and 9700.
- Duck has always been depicted with welded side tanks, so this eliminates both 7722 and 8743.
- 9700 was originally numbered 8700, but was modified into a prototype of the 9700 class in 1934. (It was at this point it was renumbered.)
- Duck is most commonly drawn with a green safety valve cover, eliminating number 7791.
This lines up with what Awdry said, as 5717 was built in Spring 1929.
...now for those of you who know a lot about the 57xx class, you'll notice a problem with the suggestion of 5717 being the real engine: it was built by the North British Locomotive Company... which is in Scotland.
But here's where things get interesting:
The first 50 units of the 57xx class (which 5717 was a part of) had been built rather barebones. While this batch of engines had vacuum brakes, they were _not_ equipped with steam heating, nor did they have automatic train control. Eventually, this was rectified, as the GWR had all these engines eventually equipped with these features. And this work would have been done at Swindon. So while splitting hairs, it _could_ be argued that Duck was _technically_ built at Swindon.
Another thing to note is that both 5717 and 5741 would have had brass number plates, whereas 5753 had iron number plates. This would have made the number swap much more apparent to workers.
But as you've alluded to, even with the clues we have been given, so many 57xx class engines were built that it becomes impossible to nail down a specific number without running into some sort of issue. This is not helped by the fact Awdry has declared _all_ illustrations to be not cannon, and are instead to be treated as visual aids. I don't have access to information regarding who was stationed where and at what time, so there may be details about 5717 that I don't know of that would eliminate it.
Certainly an interesting idea
Well, you beat me to it and found the real Duck. So GWR 5753, familiar with Southall. This was one of the engines I narrowed down to being a possible Duck as, just like you, I was able to rule out the 77xx, 87xx, 97xx and 67xx subclasses of the 57xx Class. I also kept a list of which of these engines were at Old Oak Common the same time as King James I. I came around to the possible engines being 5715, 5717, 5737, 5744, 5745, 5751, 5752, 5753, 5754, 5757, 5758, 5759, 5760, 5761, 5762, 5763, 5764, 5765, 5766, 5772, 5773, 5779, 5798 and 5799. Of course, all my research was done online as, living in America, books that go into detail about a single class of British locomotive are very hard to come by. Here's one for the books! (Pun intended) I do like the idea that the last two digits of Duck's number might be a reference to the birth year of Awdry's daughter who christened Duck. I have been brainstorming a model to dedicate to Britt Allcroft and I have considered her birth year being the number to put on it. I sometimes also think Duck is a 64xx Class in some alternate universe to have some fun with how he was first illustrated as. Bravo to you once again!
Thanks for the kind words :)
In my headcanon, duck gained sandboxes above his running board after crashing into the barbershop.
Cool
Wow, well done researching this! Impressive 😎👍🏻
Cheers :)
Just in time before the Accurascale panniers get released!
I've reordered mine :)
Maybe for your next video, you could try finding out which LNER A1/A3 is Gordon. My personal headcannon is that he is Great Northern because if you combine the two words and rework them a bit you get Gordon.
Canonically he is not an A1 but a prototype (classed A0) built 2 years before Great Northern. Hope this helps
He is a one-off A1 in RWS, not the real one. Even not Great Northern.
@@NVRacingProductions I still think Gordon would have looked like Great Northern when new.
@danielsellers8707 Nah he is a prototype in RWS canon (I'm not talking about the AUs, hell I've made Gordon as a Scotch Arthur) and has different footplate and square buffers.
@@diamond_pacific8093 He did not classify as the A0, hell, that name doesn't even make sense! Prototype would still be classified as the A1 Class even if it was a diffrent class (which it isn't).
I'm still amazed how you're able to find these engines.
but I still prefer duck being built at the north British locomotive company in Scotland. As I believe it could provide more story potential.
I still didn't know that duck was auto fitted. It was definitely something I was playing to do in my own stories but now that I know it's in official Canon I might as well make sure I do it.
amazing video
Fair enough
Well, my documentary video on my head canon for Duck will have to undergo some changes having found this out.
Sorry about that!
@sodorislandmodels6332 No big deal, mate. I've not made much progress on the script as of late
🙂
Glad to see I had the right idea with Old Oak Common, but the only deduction I could make was Duck being 5764, which is preserved as London Transport L95 at Severn Valley.
Seven years… wow… I have no right to ask, but can I use 5753 for my Duck?
It just makes no sense for Duck to switch out number plates for whatever reason…
Of course you can! 5764 was on the shortlist of 21 or so engines I mentioned, but got taken out at the top feed stage
sadly the real life Duck was scrapped 5753 did not make it to preservation
Yes :(
Well, he apparently arrived on Sodor in 1956, but all of the 5700 class were still in service with BR until 1959.
5753 was scrapped in 1959
Yeah, but would it be very cool if it was preserved I mean I would preserve it
Yeah!
I wonder how those rather unfortunate members of the railway who hold histories you've whipped the tarp off must feel, they must have kept their secrets for a reason.
Hahaha!
Anyone got any idea why Duck swapped his number with 5741? With Oliver it makes sense as he was escaping from the scrap men and it might have helped cover his identity, but what was Duck’s reason for this?
My guess would be that Stephen Hatt was born in 1941. So maybe 5741 is a refrence to his birthdate.
@@Alcofoamerso that would mean in 1958 Duck must have stolen a scrapped steam engine’s number or something! And that means the real Duck & Oliver are still around in real life!
I'll be addressing that in a follow up video 🙂
After watching the video, I might have a theory the 57xx start withdrawn in 1956 and Duck was already on sodor in 1955 just short of year but maybe just maybe Duck was the first of his class to be withdrawn ! Especially the same year the Beeching’s axe was form. So for make way for the new modern diesel, Duck was withdrawn ! But however instead of scrap they decide to put him up for sale just hoping maybe someone will buy him after all the 57xx are the most numerous class of all British Railway over 863 are built. And also said London Transport and National Coal Board did purchase some of the 57xx when they are withdrawn, the one who showed interest was not another than sir Topham hat who definitely need a new station pilot at Tidmouth after Percy was sent to the harbour after that the rest is History, and after all of that, I may have another theory that’s why Duck hate Diesel ! When they first met duck was clearly didn’t trust him. Anyone ever found out why I may have a clue it’s because Duck was already replaced by a diesel before came to Sodor and maybe before go to Sodor, he and that diesel have a heated argument each other ! So that is my theory what do you think?
Cool
Well done on finding the real Duck!
Thank you!
Placing my bet now, it’s either 5717 or 7734.
5717 was more than one person's guess I think
@@sodorislandmodels6332 One of mine as well:-)
Ah!
So... Brecon is near-ish to South Wales, would Duck have known the real 5741 while there?
I'll be looking into that in a follow up video :)
That’s pretty cool I would love it if the real pannier tank number 5741 was actually preserved
🙂
Fitting, this is the 8th video
Yes 😁
Very interesting ideas for duck and Oliver too but I just want to say would’ve been nice. If both classes they carried all those numbers were preserved? if they were then they could be used as flagship locomotives for Wilbert Awdry.
It would have been nice
I don’t know if you have realised but that station in the thumb nail is small station called parkend on the dean forest railway it’s my local heritage railway thank you
Yes it is, good eyes!
Following watching the whole video, I’ve decided to ask: what is your theory on why Duck had his number changed before coming to Sodor?
Good question, I want to address that in my follow up video, I have a few ideas but nothing concrete yet 🙂
@ I look forward to seeing it. In all due honesty, the reason Duck changed his number is why I can’t see him as anything other than the real 5741: unlike Oliver, he didn’t have a reason to do so. Here’s hoping your theory provides a good enough reason
Yes it's not as easy to find an in universe reason
@@sodorislandmodels6332i believe it’s because the real 5741 worked in a colliery in wales for all its life, while Duck claimed to have worked in Paddington station, and the illustrators were provided photos of 5741 for reference, which Awdry had to chalk up to Duck not being the engine of the same number
5741 was Wilbert Awdry's model number
Great documentary on the GWR pannier Montague
Thanks!
I was just thinking this morning about Ducks real number and I happen to stumble across this video
Great! :)
Only 3 hours to go, looking forward to seeing this mate. 😊
Hope you enjoy it!
Maybe some TVS characters like Molly, Diesel 10 or Ryan.
I'll be doing TV Series only characters in a different series but I will do them :)
@@sodorislandmodels6332 Next RWS character could be Pip and Emma, James, Gordon, Henry or even Percy.
I have a few others in the pipeline before those :)
glad to hear another fan acknowledge Molly as many fans forget about her
Oh wow
Nice Video Sodor Island Models
Thanks!
The story was excellent
Thank you!
Could 5753 pull Slip Coaches tho
Also where did it go in 1935
@@littlebacongreengreatweste2606Brecon, a town in Wales
Yes it could, and Brecon :)
@@zemcbird2024 so... Duck was welsh all along?
He was in Wales a very short time compared to Southern England
I Think The Sandbox’s On His Running Plate Might Be From A GWR Class 517
Sure
Another blinder. Well done.
Thank you!
I can hear all the Accurascale pre orders being cancelled now 🤭
Haha!
Still keeping mine! Though it's ironic that Accurascale is making No.5754, we were THIS close to actually having the real life Duck!
5741 is the number he wears on Sodor so I'll still be getting mine :)
Thats good to know about it
Cheers
So Duck was the first 57xx withdrawn by British Railways.
Yes, a year earlier than the first Pannier sold to London Transport
this is truly the great western way
Yes!!
This is rev- rev- revothingy or something.
Thanks!!
Good Job SIM!
Thank you!
Looking forward to your Toby video
Toby was 127. When he came to sodor, he was numbered 63221
@onecolossalrubikscube2554 don't you mean 68221
Thanks, he'll be out this year I hope
Excellent Research my friend, Will Toby or Pug be next?
Toby was BR number 68221 as stated in the IOS book.
Toby will be next year, I'd love to get pug done to but not sure when :)
@@Daan_0172 I. E. C53 number 127
Yes
I have a couple of plausible theories as to possible numbers, but I do like to see what other people have come up with.
Great 😁
2:24 A TRAIN THEORY!!
😁
if you're up for a challenge, maybe try to figure out what is the real life Rusty number? James could also be interesting.
Rusty is based on midlander from the Talyklyn Railway
@ well i know that but I wonder if we could find out his real number because there were hundreds of his class made
@@randombread7535 It is a fair point, because in universe the Skarloey and Talyllyn engines are separate and so are their backstories
thing is, since Rusty's old working life wasn't ever told, we don't really have any leads
Yes, I'll look into the narrow gauge engines at some point, on a it of a roll with standard gauge right now!
Okay, now uncover the entire Sudric language (or at least a good portion of it)
i could of sworn it was called Sudrian but then again it might the result of a mix up between another British Christian authour's works.
Both words are real, there is a poll out for patrons at the moment in regards to a video about the language 😁
How do you do this?!
Hard work 😁
I mean every single one of the 5700s numbers 5741 and 5753 and 1400s numbers 1436 and 1453
🙂
So Oliver is 1453 and Duck is 5753. Interesting...
Yes!
You have hurt my soul with that edited cab on the thumbnail (not really). This should be interesting. Of course, there are probably a hundred 5700s/8750s that worked at paddington/old oak common and technically its not confirmed to my knowledge that Monty was working out of old oak before being sent to sodor. If he was, there's a good chance he'd have been one of the few 5700s to be painted in BR lined black since that was a special livery only those at Old Oak had. All that is to be said i am interested in this videos findings.
Cool, hope you enjoy the video 🙂
THE GREAT WESTERN WAY OR THE WRONG WAY
CORRECT
Don’t we know it 🙄
😁
WHAT?
🙂
@@sodorislandmodels6332thank you so much for this. In regards to tracking down pip and Emma.
Given the year of their first appearance. They would have likely to have been western region high speed trains. They have paxman valenta engines so that means they must have been western region hsts and they are also unreliable at the time. They can't be the Ladbrooke grove crash or the Hatfield crash as they are still around after that date. They claim to have been in the first batch manufactured. Hope this helps with your research.
Yet another great video as always
Thanks for that 🙂
@@sodorislandmodels6332 will you ever do Thomas?
Yes!