Bally Eight Ball Deluxe LE Pinball Machine With No Roms!
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- Опубликовано: 14 мар 2024
- What Happened To The Roms? There's no Roms on the MPU Board! Repairing a Bally CPU With No Roms!
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Thank YOU for taking the trouble to film it all for us. I had a hunch that it was going to be not soldered lights. But I knew you were going to find it. Mainly because I've plenty of videos to know that "if you're seeing this part, you know I finished it" 😉
I'm trying to make the videos more subjective, i.e. about 1 particular thing instead of just parts of a longer video
Yes, i hate LED-lights in classical HIFI-Receivers and Amplifiers.
I allways replace them with Lamps
I’m sorry
Now that is a proper Disclamer! They all should be written like that,
I know it's good to see somebody taking the chance on us :)
It's great to see someone conserving these old systems. It's a form of computer archaeology and hopefully these units will be enjoyed for many generations to come.
I hate LED lights on classic pinballs like this. Gives me terrible headache.
When I put LED's in mine I had to put a 1k resistor across each socket to stop the flickering. It was a lot more work than you would think. When I converted another machine to LED I just bough the Alteck driver board and it works great.
When I did my 8 ball deluxe in LEDs, I had to solder a 100ohm resistor across the sockets in the rack lights to stop the flicker. I guess the SCRs need a higher load to fully latch closed. Would have been easier for me to leave the regular bulbs!!
Game looks great!!
they are using the D input as an enable, so they can disable ALL the outputs when it's high. that way they can select a single output across all 4 chips by only pulling D low on one chip at a time.
You need to install the LED flicker eliminator adapter kit for classic Bally and Stern pinball machines that Marco sells.
This is why it is great that we have eeprom USB programmers and all the HEX files available from each game to flash new ROMs when needed.
Yes I'm glad somebody archived them! The company released them to the public too, that's something you don't see often. Thank you for watching, as always!
It’s coming on great Ronnie. The customer should be starting to feel pretty good if he watches this video. It won’t be long now….I can just feel it.
I like it, "The nice warm glow of the incadescent bulb.." Reminds me of the leg lamp in the Christmas Story movie.
Plus, I think the incandescent color is actually very close to that of a traditional pool ball.
This is one of those games where the warmer Incandescent globe works better. Pool balls are not that cold white colour usually, especially older ones. The are that slightly yellowed colour. Maybe I am just old and like to have these games they way they were intended, including incandescent globes.
I like the look of the old lamps much better, but I also like the idea of not having to maintain them as much, have less heat, and save some power as well. That's sort of the same conclusion I came to in my home lighting. Some of the newer LEDs could get the warmness, but they really need a power supply and controller that was designed to use LEDs to make them "act" like the older lights. It really is a pick your poison. The thing that bugs me the most, however, is when the color temperatures are mismatched--which can also happen with combos of incandescent lighting when combined with florescent.
I am impressed with your skills on putting this beast back together!
Yes, they likely used OTP PROMs where they left off the window to erase it.
Before that were mask ROMs. They would fabricate the dies most of the way and then make the final layer to specs. So you'd buy those from the factory in large batches already programmed.
Nothing better than getting home after a long day of work and seeing you guys posted a video. Thank you!
Ron finds no ROMs just in time for lunch. 😁
Thank you sir for all that you do!
where did the roms go????
@@LyonsArcade Easy, Romania!
Well the LED issue is two fold. Most older games like this require an LED adapter or a lamp driver board for LEDs. That would stop the flicker. However, I noticed a lot of ghosting on the LED's that were not flickering. This means there are cheaper LEDS in the machine. They are fine for GI, but not for controlled lamps. Non-Ghosting bulbs have NG printed on the bulb. Thats why when a bulb if "off" it seems to still have a flicker or slight light coming from it.
Half of them flicker and half don't, kind of weird
@@LyonsArcade it’s about voltage. On the led boards or adapters there is an extra wire that goes helps regulate the voltage across the all lines. the partial issue may be because of the extra lamp driver board. I had a similar issue with my Bally startrek when I upgraded the bulbs. Some flickered some did not. When i installed the led adapter board all stoped flickering.
I want to express my gratitude for your longer videos. They are a perfect length to actually get into what you are doing and relax a bit. Sometimes, I have to stop watching, but I always finish later.
Thank you Mandy, I appreciate you watching so much. We try to make a balance between being entertaining and not too long winded...
It might be a case of the lights not being the right resistance. Similar to how the flasher circuit works on cars and trucks. New cars and trucks if you swap the oem bulbs with leds they will cause a hyper flash instance, and a notification to pop up on the dash, also on older cars and trucks if you swap the bulbs they will in fact not flash but remain on constant. So my idea would be check with the customer and verify that they want the leds in the game. If yes place a resister inline with each of the flickering bulbs, If the answer is no then simply place the original bulbs in the sockets.
Joe, love your videos. I am currently working on a 1962 Gottlieb "Liberty Belle" EM pinball machine that was in terrible shape. I could not do all the things I have done to it without your help. I would like to meet you some day and thank you personally. Do you attend any pinball conferences or events?
I've had good luck using Comet non-ghosting LED lamps to replace switched lamps. They seem to work in these games without board or socket modification although they do flicker somewhat during self test. That being said, I find using LED bulbs underneath playfield inserts has minimal benefit so I tend to leave them as incandescent bulbs and replace just the GI and backbox lamps with LEDs. Gi bulbs won't flicker so you can use the cheaper LEDs there.
LED use less wattage and give off less heat which is better for the game and glass in the long run. While you can play with different colors I like sunlight or warm white LEDs which have the same or similar color to the originals without the heat.
I know SQUAT about lectricity yet love watchin this guy go to TOWN on these old machines!
hahaha sit back and watch, we appreciate you hanging out with us.
Thanks guys for another great video,cant get enough of EBD was a joy to play when new lookn all shiny and attractive with bright yellow rubbers and enticing attract sound...It always was eacy to hear if one of these was close by.x
Thank you for watching Saskia!!!!
Just found your channel and been working through all your library of content, wow! Exactly what I was looking for! I am looking to get my first pinball project in the near future after clearing my workshop for a little space, so am watching with great interest all the various tables, parts and issues you find. Your channel is such a resource of information, knowledge, tips and how to get hold of spares etc. I'm in the UK, so it'll be interesting to see what table I get first (starting with a cheap classic to start) but really looking forward to learning and restoring these great machines. I'd love to be able to bring some back to life.
Looking forward to all your future videos, keep up the great work! 👍
Welcome to the channel! Thanks for watching
Good video, you cant beat back engineering when troubleshooting.
The LEDs have a sharp on-off due to their semiconductor technology. Once the voltage drops below the conduction voltage, the LED stops emitting photon light which makes it more noticeable if there are any voltage changes or removal of voltage. On an incandescent bulb, the filament still glows after the voltage is removed until it's cold giving off visible light. This is the reason incandescent bulbs work better for flashing effects due to being able to see light after the voltage is removed. I suspect that the lamp driver line has some kind of strobing or voltage changes like Pulse Width Modulation (PWM - Square Wave like voltage) which the LEDs are picking up quickly due to their nature. The only way to see this happening is with an oscilloscope since regular meters don't pick up these changes and see the voltage as an average voltage. You may be able to add capacitors to the lamp sockets to help smooth out the voltage changes, but this may take some trial and error. The easiest fix would be to incandescent bulbs.
A 1.5K resistor across each flickering LED bulb (across the 2 bulb lugs) should do the trick 😃
This machine is a new age resto!
Getting there Ron! Thanks for the video! Have a good weekend!
Good job on troubleshooting the boards!
To fix LED strobing, check if it’s DC powered, if so (I would assume so), put in an electrolytic cap across the supply voltage to them.
Awesome video. Thanks Ron
Thank you for another awesome video.
Still watching and really enjoying the videos guys!! The finish on the playfield PLUS the led lights is to much. It's like seeing some sheila with plastic surgery, it normally just looks wrong. The standard type bulbs look way nicer and suit the game. But, to each their own hey.....
WMS is likely short for Williams.
And as I was saying before, masked ROMs are not "programmed," at least not in an end-user sort of way. The foundry would have dies manufactured to a point and they would take the client data to make the final junctions of the transistors.
21:11 - best disclaimer ever!
I wonder if the LED module could be made to glow much more steady with a very tiny capacitor across the bulb wires. I bet that those are being run on AC which would make that flicker, and it 'supposedly' helps keep the incandescent bulbs working longer due to filament wear yadda yadda.
The trick would be testing the caps to see what values would keep them on just long enough to remain 'steady' but not take so long to fade when they turn off.
Thank you for another great video
sadly, not all led replacement 'bulbs' are made equally, and some work nicely with pulsed signals, some very much do not, and appear to strobe, when all you want is the regular flash.
I much prefer the warm glow of the older bulbs.
Old bulb for the win
I have a question....following the procedures to determine how to jumper for the ROMs, could you determine, based on DIP switch position, or other factors, what game, or games, the board was originally used in? I know it is unnecessary, but I was half expecting you to say "this board came from XXX, you can tell by XXX...". Great video as always. These are very inspiring, as are the ART videos.
"Quit talking, and start chalking!" 🎱
I suppose those flickering LED issues could be resolved with fitting a capacitor across each lamp, a bit of experimentation will be required to find the right value. Too big a value and the lamp will not extinguish quickly enough and too small and the flicker will still be there.
It is solved by adding a resistor. You can do it at each socket but it is far easier to do it at the boards. There are adapters available that plug in and provide the required resistance. You can also buy LEDs with the parts needed built in.
Need a 1k resistor across each socket.
Did the operator you worked for mentor you or are you self taught? From the videos I’ve watched I think you enjoy EM machines more than solid state but you do well with both. I like to think about all the steps the old guys had to take to basically end up with the same outcome as having a few chips. I like analog, but digital isn’t going away.
I didn't work on many pinball machines when I worked for the operator, all of the technical pinball stuff I learned from PinRepair.com .
I forget you’re not an old goat like me. Thank you for mentioning Planetary Pinball, looks like another good place to find parts.
But if the U2 ROM is missing, how will I ever get my daily dose of 'Beautiful Day'!? :(
I'm weird, I liked their "Zooropa" and "Pop" albums better than their other stuff
U2 ROM missing? Still haven’t found what you’re looking for?
You said bally eight ball was the hest selling game of all time..I watched a video of a discussion panel at a pinball show. It had some big familiar names in the pinball industry at the time. I dont rember the speaker. Whoever it was said that the largest number of games produced was actually Williams flash. In 1979 they didnt recird the number of units shipped to europe. Flash sold atound 19,0000 in the US and williams shipped another 5 thousand to europe totaling 24000. Addams family sold 20,000 making it the third largest number sold. Eight ball sold 23000 making it the machine with the second largest number sold and flash was the first.
JOE, you mention that the pinball games had a "Slow Start up" or Rise time circuit for the lamp circuits because when you install LED's that will turn on right away. What is this circuit called that is doing the rise time or slow start up for the lamps to warm up in pinball games?
That’s why it’s Limited Edition-it’s the one that came without ROMs. 🤷♂️
I wanna know where are the roms
So..
"Wood" work from wherever..
Vinyl playfield artwork
Card set from various
Harness from where ever
Repo top glass...
Roms ..remade from online library...
...
Just what might be original?
Being the suspicious chap I am..I bet the serial number was stamped on the neck bit...replaced now.
I don't pretend to know the pinball market...
In general in pinball machines, the prettier it is the more it's worth. People in the hobby don't really care if anything is original, if it has new parts it actually increases the value believe it or not. So if you have new LED displays instead of the original displays, it's considered better and worth more. Putting LED's in the machine increases the value too.
What is the V shaped resistance cluster at the top of these bally boards?
I find it difficult to play with the ball ghosting from strobing LEDs. There's fixes for it but I personally prefer the warmth of old skool bulbs.
Hard to tell if the solder joint is bad if one does not clean off the flux
Could the flickering lights be noise or some kind of interference? I notice your logic probe speaker was crackling when you tested the chip outputs. Just a guess.
0:20 - Hardtop on the playfield ... I have seen "NOS" playfields for a horrible high price and these overlayer foils (also not cheap). Can you explain the "hardtop" for me please?
(I still have this hard used playfield in my 1978 Bally Star Trek)
So the original playfield is wood, and silkscreened paint on top of it. The artwork is then cleared and that's how they were released. They get worn away over the years and the paint looks worn. So at some point, they started making overlays, that were essentially a big sticker that you would stick over the entire playfield that had the art printed on it. They weren't that great because you had to get it on perfect, or they would ripple up, and things. They could be done properly but it was a ton of work.
A few years back they started making a new type called a 'hardtop' which is basically the same thing but instead of being a sticker, it's a thick plastic film, it's much more resilient and it doesn't ripple around the posts. It can still have waves in it though, and it changes how the game plays (it makes it much faster). It's a lot of work to install one but they look really good if you get it done.
Cool
Hey Ron!!
Hey Jason!
Add a capacitor to all of the flashing LEDs
is the flicker because of the filter cap
Bad ground on pop bumpers ,?
Not a fan of led lamps either in a pinball machine!! It's a shame but the game would look better with the original lamps in them. But the owner has the right to do what he wants with his game!!
It's not really that big of a deal to me, because it doesn't hurt anything you can take them out and put real bulbs in if you want :) Thank you for watching !!!
Agree, when we're talking about classic machines. Modern ones look fine when they are designed around contemporary technology. They do make "warm white" LEDs which give you the look of the original globes, with the advantage of LEDs low power draw/consistent brightness/not burned out.
I think the machine is too old to suit those bright white LEDs, the 8 ball looked so much better. I suppose you pays your money and you takes your choice.
D controls Q8 and Q9
Yodelayheehoo
Hello Lil Everette!
.
You got a typo in the video's title Ron; it's broke !
Thanks!