Paul is absolutely right. I am now 67 and young people are always telling me that I cannot possibly hear the detail in my hifi system that I know I can, but it is best just to ignore them. My system still sounds wonderful and I am not planning to make any changes. Just enjoy the music as you always have.
@@thunderpooch That is irrelevant. As Paul so eloquently put it in the video, I am still satisfied with the performance of my hifi and I can still tell the difference between a good system and a poor one. It is likely that I can no longer hear some high frequencies but this does not affect my enjoyment of the music.
@@ian_of_glosif you look at a spectrum analyzer, you'll notice everything above 10Khz is less important than most people realize. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have gear as flat from 20hz to 20Khz as possible for best sound. Some engineers use a gentle roll off starting around 18Khz
I’m 69 and I actually like a “warm” sounding amplifier. I have a MacIntosh integrated amp and Martin Logan Motion speakers and I absolutely love the sound!
I know what you're saying. In my younger years I used to chase "accurate" sound, ie does a piano sound out of a speaker sound exactly like a baby brand. Now I chase a pleasant sound which leaves me feeling "wow" that sounded really good.
There is actually a little bit more to it than just the hearing loss from aging. It is definitely the case that the limits of what you can hear in terms of amplitude and frequency diminishes as you age, but that is just half of the scene. The thing is that high frequencies (+10K) are not that present in musical material. If they are there, they are there because they are the harmonic of a lower frequency. In other words, frequencies above 10K don't carry musical information. The highest frequency a violin can produce is 3520 hz, the highest note on a piano is 4186 hz. Both instruments produce higher frequencies but only as harmonics of those base notes. So even in your twilight years, you will be able to enjoy music, on a good sound system, as I'm sure PS audio makes, to the fullest.
Most "detail" in our music systems are just isolated sharp impulses or "room" sound from the recording, not actual high (10k+) frequencies. Listeners with slight age-related hearing loss will have no problem picking up on the same details as a young person will. Only flutes and certain electronic music will seem slightly more muted, but still present.
Interesting! So if you strip out all harmonics and keep only the fundamental you could still tell it came from a piano instead of guitar? Please explain how a simple single frequency sinewave produces the variations heard between them. "The highest frequency a violin can produce is 3520 hz" WRONG! The highest NOTE, fundamental frequency, is 3520 hz. The ONLY difference between a piano, guitar, drum, ...sound is in the harmonics! The first 10 are considered most critical. In order to KNOW that that particular 3,520hz fundamental came from a violin instead of a flute you need the 2nd harmonic @ 7,040hz, 3rd @ 10,560hz ... 10th @ 35,200hz.
@@glenncurry3041 I hear you Glen (sorry for the pun,Lol).Even with some loss we still recognise the instruments due to their harmonic structure and relationship with their fundamental frequency. I know i'm more or less repeating your point,but it's an important one for recognising timbre and differing time signatures of various instruments.
@@glenncurry3041:: Yes, you are right, The harmonics are what determine the "timbre" (not pronounced timber) of an instrument and are indeed what we need as a listener to identify the type of sound producer. But the energy contents in those higher harmonics diminishes very fast from the 3rd harmonic on and up. Our brains are so adapted to those sounds that they "fill in the blanks" so to speak. Is it the same as hearing up to 20K? of course not. but even if you can just hear up to 12K, you will be able to distinguish a cymbal from a violin. The musical information is not just contained in the frequency spectrum but also in the energy distribution across the frequency spectrum, in the attack and decay of the sound. I don"t want to get into a "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of exchange here, my explanation is by far not detailed enough to explain how our ears work and how we perceive sound. I was just trying to convey a bit more detail.
This video really struck me. Maybe it's because I'm a few weeks off the heart surgeon's table. But, Paul, I just really want to thank you for these well done, thoughtful, educational videos. Be well!
Hi Paul, being a 73year old and still retain good hearing (according to our NHS). I have to say all your posts are loaded with great and sensible information. More power to you elbow as they say. Cheers Chap.
Paul at 64 and a past audio engineer I know my high frequency hearing is not what it was - but my hearing is probably better than a lot of my peers and I still love listening to music on my hi end system!
Great video Paul, as always! I’m 62, and I have been a music lover and an audiophile since the age of 17 (a long time ago…) my current system is the most balanced system I ever had, I have a large collection of music, both analog and digital, and I mostly listen at moderate levels most of the time, I still Enjoy the music as much as I used to at the age of 25, keep up the great work Mr McGowan👍🎶
Thanks for your videos, Paul. It looks like your video brought out the Executive Division. Ha Ha. Anyway, I am 67 years and a mechanic who just retired. After 50 years of guns, farming, oil field, semi trucks & shipboard engine rooms I am still doing Ok. I asked my Dad the other day when he started to feel old, up there, in the brain. He referenced high school to be about how he thinks, but I know this man has packed in a lot more knowledge. He told me, when I was about 15, my system will never sound better than my speakers. I don't know if I'm a real audiophile, but I have always loved music. My children are all musicians and have taught me a lot about that. My sounds system is probably about 50K and my friends think I can Boom, but I don't. It sounds real. I tell them Doobies came over last night, and I have a real drum set in the living room. I believe listening is learned, but can you tell me why a 'French' Horn is the ONE Instrument that I can't pin point in a concert. It is just out there, somewhere! PS (not PS Audio) my wife gets upset while I focus on the organ pipes vibrating during the sermon.
As a 35 / 68 year old man, your explanation is spot-on, Paul. When I had a hearing test for work in my early 30's, the testing technician got a funny look and immediately re-tested. He told me afterwards the reason: my left ear tested almost perfectly and he thought it might have been an anomalous reading. In my mid-fifties I had a stapidectomy/implant in my right ear for conductive hearing loss, and have had tinnitus for probably 15-20 years in both. Listening to my system soundstage gives me as much, probably more enjoyment now as ever. Hearing ain't great but listening in my mind certainly is!
At 68 I found a new love for sound quality gone are the class A and the AB amps. Bought my first D class amp and I'm back in audio heaven. If your in this age group get a good D class amp.
Paul W. Klipsch said "we live in the midrange." Paul would have agreed 100% with what Paul said here. Protect your hearing. Wear ear plugs when mowing the lawn, vacuuming the house, going to loud concerts. You will enjoy your present sound system fully for years to come.
GM ☕️ After decades of concerts , clubbing and as a competitive shooter..now into my 60’s ..with tinnitus and the natural decline in my hearing …I still enjoy great sound and interesting new musical experiences. Btw, loved the set up at the Toronto Audiofest this past weekend. Take care and enjoy the weekend.
Excellent advice. I think we all underestimate the role of the brain in processing sound. My wife is a stroke survivor. Her sound processing system was damaged. Working with her to rehabilitate provided some insight into it's workings. The brain chooses what we hear out of an abundance of background noise. It works hard in this process. I believe this central to the fatigue and irritation we experience with sound systems. There is no doubt in my mind that Paul's comment about experience and training to hear details is accurate.
'The brain chooses to hear what we hear out of an abundance of background noise' - one of the best explanations of what we hear (or don't hear) when listening. Spot on.
Apparently tinnitus is not actual hearing damage, but the brain trying to compensate for frequencies it can't process anymore, so it fills in the blank with ringing noises, ect, it's more of a psychological disorder...so ive heard...
That's such a great question, so kudos to the gent who asked it. That reminded me that as a teenager, I thought great audio was boosted bass and boosted treble. As I aged, or dare I say matured, I found my equipment got flatter and flatter, and this was a function of my "learning how to listen," or perhaps "learning how to hear." I know full well I do not hear better than I did as a teen. However, I am so much more detail aware now than I used to be, in spite of natural hearing decline due to aging.
Hi Paul, let me say CIAO from Switzerland. I like your videos and your good sense of humor very much. I am listening to music using headphones (over and in ear) since 1972 frequently and still enjoy doing so at the age of 70😍 TSCHÜSS😀
At 62, I have some hearing loss above 10k but it doesn’t affect my overall enjoyment of music. However, I am a complete headphone/IEM audiophile so I can still hear the effects of those higher frequencies on what I do hear. But Paul is spot-on when he talks about the brain-ear connection. It’s really our brains that “hear” the music. Our ears are simple mechanisms that gather the sound for our brains to process. It’s the reason why we can adjust to what we hear. You can listen to a pair of speakers and think they sound amazing but over time, your brain gets used to it and that “wow” factor gradually fades. It still sounds good but sometimes we want to upgrade or try to improve our system to get that back. The opposite is true as well. You can listen to something that is just OK but over time, your brain adjust to it and it ends up sounding pretty good anyway, not that it is, but your brain sort of extrapolates what’s is good in the music regardless of its shortcomings.
I've recently had my late 70's components refurbished/recapped and am getting back into my stereo days of back then. I replaced my speakers that I had (Dahlquist DQM-7's) and sold with a pair of Vandersteen C1i+. They're very transparent which appeals to my 69 year old ears. It's good to get back to music around the house while doing chores!
What a great video Paul 👏👏👏 well you look fantastic at 75 gentleman 💯👌 I bet your hearing is being taken care of as good as the rest of your body and soul 👊👊👊 I very much appreciate and enjoy your video's gentleman 🎶💯👌 your are always spot-on 💯 Keep up the good work and remember 8Khz is just a number 😊 my 13 Khz R and 14Khz L, is no better than your 8Khz when it comes to analyzing and enjoying your equipment 💥🎶😉 have a wonderful weekend 🥳 José from Holland (A huge fan of your amazing products 💖)
I would even like to contribute here an opposite effect that I have noticed in myself. With increasing age and therefore also increasing listening experience, I hear "metrologically" less, but have become even more critical with highs. I notice visibly that my internal CPU extrapolates from the mids much better than before.
OMG you're so right. 😂, I still think I look like 50, and feel like 30.. but I'm officially old now (65) and starting to feel stiff and so on.... hate that
Great explanation! Again closely matching my thought process. We adjust to our losses as they happen. So pre-compensating on the outside should always make our current hearing recognize it based on existing current reference. Unless the intent is to force information at the ears to compensate for those loses in advance hoping to fool the brain. Perhaps like being a cheap drunk early on. So now I just add a few more shots? Or I've just gotten to the point where a nice glass of Nebbiolo does the job?
I’m also 50 years old, and I know that my hearing is currently capped at around 13.500 Hz. Interestingly, I became more sensitive to bright audio systems (they bother me more now) than they used to when I was younger. It’s also important to get things into perspective, and while a 10.000Hz range seems like a lot, the first one (0 or 20 to 10.000Hz) has exponentially more musical information than the 10.000 - 20.000 Hz range. Even the B&W example of some extremely bright loudspeaker “voicing” turns out to have a rise in amplitude way below 10.000 Hz, and even then, a very pronounced high midrange or a much pronounced and large dip in the 1 to 4 KHz may be perceived as too much energy in the high frequencies. Balance is still one of the most important things, and that’s one of the reasons why some legendary audio engineers recorded amazing sounding albums _way_ after their 50’s! 😉 It’s fair to point out that at or above 50 years old, I doubt that anyone can hear the high pitch of an older CRT TV, which a young person certainly can (unless there’s some serious damage), and some audio engineers do have some kind of spectrum analyzer I’m the chain I’m order to be certain that there’s nothing strange under (or above 😀) their radar. But if we take everything above 10.000 Hz (and even all below 500 hz) of any music recording, no one will have a hard time recognizing music. The same can’t be said if a brand new set of ears listen only to the musical content above 10.000 Hz. 😉 I know that I’m missing those higher frequencies because I have the curiosity of testing it, and not because I feel like I’m missing them. So I have to agree with Paul in that “memory” concept of what we used to hear. If our ears are no longer able to hear 16.000 Hz, we don’t hear 16.000 Hz (period). But somehow, we don’t necessarily feel like there’s anything missing. Hearing loss/damage that leads to trouble at recognizing speech is another subject, and that’s why we should take care and protect our hearing as much as we can.
Adjusting aside; You want the system to have a certain amount of realism. If you hear a trumpet with your 50 or 75 year old ears, it will sound like a trumpet. The system shouldn't sound brighter, because then it's not a realistic depiction of said trumpet. It only needs to match your reference of what a real life trumpet sounds like. My blue isn't your blue, but we'll never know.
Many Audiophiles obsess over high frequencies and imagine they can hear up to 20KHz. The average 35 year old male has 11dB hearing loss at 8KHz, which is significant. Good luck trying to reliably hear differences in formats, cables, power supplies etc. Loudspeakers and room acoustics are far more important.
I (69) got a hearing test and bought a hearing aid; it was a game changer! So much better! A lot of musicians do have this hearing aid too. It’s the Wydex Moment Sheer 440 with an Music module and equalizer. At least get your hearing tested, before buying new gear!!
A couple of things: I finally gave in and got hearing aids last year, at age 65, after a few years of asking my wife why the actors on TV and movies were mumbling so much, asking shop attendants to repeat everything they said and hopelessly failing to understand what my Indian colleagues were saying on Zoom calls. The trigger to do something about it was listening to an old ELP record and not hearing Carl Palmer go *shit* when he misses a rim shot. If I was missing that, what else might I be missing? Getting the hearing aids was a revelation. Things sound bright but without the aids, everything is dull and lifeless. I was worried about headphones but an over the ear pair presented no problems. The other thing is that I was curious about what Paul had cued on up on the monitor behind him, so I checked it out. *A Strangely Isolated Place* is great! Way to go, Paul; listening advice *and* listening recommendations in one video.
It happens. As your ears get older, you unconsciously start to prefer brighter sounding gears. Yourself is not usually aware of it. Yourself usually denies it. But, it happens.
Paul you have what I call a trained ear/listening. Teaching English in another country I find that they simply don't hear certain sounds of the English language making it difficult for them to reproduce them, and the same goes for me as my ear is not trained for their language and I don't hear certain tones their language has making it difficult for me to speak their language accurately.
I'm 65 and used to blow out speakers because I could not hear. Got hearing aids and can now hear all kinds of detail at much lower volumes. Hearing aids have a "music" setting where the "smarts" are turned off. Just amazing! Better living through technology! Get tested people, don't suffer. Roon manipulates the files and then one last EQ in my ears
I agree with Paul’s opinion, if it sounds good to you, just enjoy and forget about others opinions, I might get slammed by the comment I’m about to make but, for regular two Chanel music listening I like to incorporate a equalizer in my mid 1970’s audio gear, I have a mild case of High-frequency hearing loss from the military, this means that certain high-frequency verbal sounds like 's', 'h', or 'f', (the consonants) are more difficult to hear or distinguish from other sounds, I don’t consider myself an audiophile by any means but, I do remember how a song used to sound like before I developed this condition and this method helps A LOT for me to bring it back to that enjoyable level I used to like so much. Needless to state, (this is my opinion), the introduction of synthesizers made lots of people gain the status of record producer specialist, making the hard work and experience of pre-synthesizer era record producers a joke, I personally think lots of music has changed to the point they lack cohesiveness, don’t get me wrong, many producers out there still do an outstanding job, but I guess this particular opinion comes with the help of repetitive listening of present music era recordings. Love your videos Paul.
As someone in my early 60’s and who played in loud rock bands for 20+ years, there are definite deficiencies across the board. I’m told that I play my music too loud by my 30-ish daughter who never tortured her ears as I did. I do find brighter headphones like Hifiman more appealing than Sennheisers, but I’ve noticed that if I go too bright with speakers or eq’ed highs my ears get fatigued, same as when a microphone fed back on stage and squealed and then I was hearing locusts for most of the night. Bottom line, my system now sounds better than anything I ever had and I did not seek out bright components.
Paul, you really hit the nail on the head here in answering the question. At 52, I have come to realize that my high frequency hearing ability HAS dropped off. It IS disappointing when listening to a favorite recording that's been part of my collection for years. Those nuances that we anticipate are no longer there or have lost much of their pizzazz. It wouldn't be such a big deal if I'd NEVER heard them, but your description of the "memory" effect of what, how we listened and enjoyed in the past is "spot on"!!! But, there is a silver lining: to me it's attention, and maximizing my senses. I do my critical listening in pure darkness whenever possible, fully relaxed and after a period (several minutes) of still quiet in the sweet spot. (Befire rhe music starts) By minimizing anything I can see and giving the music my FULL attention, I find that after a few minutes listening, I become hyper-focused and those subtle details emerge again. Maybe not quite as they were 20 or 30 years ago, but certainly enough to thrill me once again. While I have resisted a tiny tweak of the treble knob, it certainly wouldn't be criminal, would it?
Absolutely not. That's why tone controls were invented for. Doesn't matter what 'technically' you can or can't hear - its what your hifi does for your personal listening enjoyment that matters👍
Howdy. Yeah. My experience. I am 67 and also only hear up to about 8k. My old Pioneer headset failed. I bought a JBL headset. Holy Molly. The difference. I can hear Blackmore and Page actually plucking the strings and the resonances when Bonham hits the brass. I would imagine that music is quite another thing than just single sine waves. I believe the brain can compensate much of the loss of ear sensitvity. As long the ears can resolve seeds of nuances the brain will deliver a full perception. Regards.
I'm 73 years old and suffer from moderate to severe hearing loss. -60db at 8 khz. I use an equalizer to brighten up the top end. Just a 12db boost at 8 khz helps a great deal.
Take care of your hearing, people! Last June 9th, 2022, my wife and I went to see Brit Floyd at the Red Rocks Amphitheater near Denver, CO. I didn't have any hearing protection, and the music was much louder than I expected. Well needless to say, I ended up with some high frequency hearing loss and tinnitus, mostly in my left ear. After much searching and doctor and audiologist visits, I now have hearing aids with tinnitus maskers in them. Luckily, I can still hear up to around 13 KHz, but my left ear drops off sooner than my right. I'm 63 years old, and my hearing has always been excellent. Well, not so much any more. Protect your ears!
I concur 100% to what Paul says. However, you may consider some more facts: all loudspeakers have their own „voice“. There is a profound difference for instance between the Infinity Kappas I had before my now B&Ws. Which I prefer (I am 77 years of age) I am not sure, I think the B&Ws (this is why I bought them in the first place). The Kappas with the Emit tweeters are slightly harsh in the tops and the dome minds are not quite as good as those in the English transducers. And this has not much to do with the measured frequency response that is surprisingly similar. One more thing: the sound what you usually get from TVs is awful. I have connected mine via Toslink to my DAC and such I listen through my complete set. Works satisfactory in general except with speaking voices of actors in many movies. Many have very sloppy sound quality anyways, and now at my age I more often than not cannot understand the spoken word very good. This is where I, what I rarely do, turn up the treble some. This was the same with both of my speakers, they „bright“ B&Ws did not make much of a difference here too. Anyways: enjoy the music! Sound is produced in the brain, without it there is no sound, just moving air.
Our reference is live sound, whether our hearing is not complete or not. The human state has a wonderful capability to fill in details related to frequency response. It has no capacity to compensate for phase errors however.
A good tonal balance in your system is much more important than the highest frequencies that you may no longer perceive. Even though you may no longer hear them... those highest frequencies continue to harmonize with the rest of the spectrum. In addition, high frequencies radiate much less energy than middle or low frequencies. Anyone who loses everything between 20K and 10K will only miss 1 octave out of 10. Not all that dramatic...
Hmmm, not so sure about this. Trusting that the overall perception of sound will remain the same only goes so far. I have normal age related hearing loss and actually did notice that my systems were starting to sound dull. With that, and all the other signals (pardon?, TV louder than before etc etc) I took the plunge and got some hearing aids. I was resistant to even trying them but they have been brilliant and the effect on my music listening has been fantastic. Everybody's hearing is different of course, but I think that a good rule of thumb is to go outside and listen to the birds singing (if you have singing birds nearby). If you can hear them you're probably fine, if you struggle then get a hearing test.
I think you make a good point. Normal age related hearing loss is so gradual you don't realise what you're not hearing anymore until you hear it again! Admitting to hearing loss is caught up with vanity and not wanting to admit to actually needing hearing aids.
72 years old... My last hearing test confirmed I can still hear 13khz, which the audiologist said is about "35 year old hearing" ... Paul is totally correct about protecting your hearing. I don't blast my music or movies, use ear plugs at concerts and, fortunately, have never worked in high noise environments. Think of your brain as having a built in EQ that automatically compensates for the loss of highs with age. Over time we adapt to the slow change and, indeed, I don't really miss what I can't hear. Also consider that musical scales end at about 4100 hz and except for special effects there is almost no content above about 12khz to begin with... so there's actually nothing to miss!
@@Fastvoice Yes you can ... but at low levels and making little difference to the overall sound. Moreover these are not independent sounds ... you won't hear the 8th harmonic of high C without high C also being played ... so its likely that most of it is inadible to begin with.
When I was 19 I could hear ultrasonic alarm transducers around 22k. Now I'm down to 13.5k. If you are down to 8k, that's a big loss. There's nothing wrong with trying a parametric equalizer before your amp, so you might hear the high tones again.
No equalizer can provide you with frequencies above your own ear rolloff. All you would hear is some kind of white noise - not at all good for the overall sound.
I'm 66. My hearing is good up to about 12k now. The only difference I notice in listening to music is that the triangles at the back of the orchestra have gotten quieter. In my early 30's I was using my computer to generate tones. I couldn't hear the 20k tone, but I could tell when it stopped. I used to have 20/15 vision too--the joys of aging.
I'm 82 and have been hard of hearing for 10 years. When I finally went for hearing aids, the HMO paying for them said, that for $1800 more I could get a better unit from Denmark. Well, knowing something about Scandinavian hi-Fi, I bought them. The hearing aids sound more normal at the lowest setting; they are too shrill otherwise. I would never buy B&W speakers even if they were the only ones from which I could detect a sound. It's KEF for me. I'm an audiophile until I die--four hours ago I spent $2000 on a better DAC and am considering PS Audio's new preamplifier. My hearing doctor said she had trouble hearing older British movies. I told her that's because the Brits filmed in rooms, while the Americans did in sound stages. She was relieved.
I'm 71 and had my hearing checked a few years ago and it was rolling off at 12k I've gone in the direction with my stereo rig with full dynamics hopefully 😅 My tower speakers have built-in powered subs and I also have two SVS Ultra 13subs with the upgraded plate amps I suspect I might be missing some inner detail, but the dynamic range down to 18 hz is addictive and I can't get the smile off my face!!😊
@@analogueman5364 Thanks as I missed Paul's vid about PRAT I have not heard that term before I'm really careful to set up my stereo rig to have the proper bass output Through DSP & REW I must say songs I've heard 100 of times sound so much more dynamic now being procented full range! Let the PRAT begin 😁 oh if you want to hear my mid fi Stereo rig, look up "Magnepan 7's doing their thing with VAC"
I am 52 and I did not take care of my ears when I was in the Air Force, working on the flight line. So my hearing is not that good. I do enjoy brighter speakers more than the natural sounding muted speakers. I also tend to adjust the EQ so I can hear mids and the highs a bit better.
I think that the human brain has a way of compensating for hearing loss as we age, much like our brain compensates for blind spots in our vision, which we all have from the time we are born. At 57 years old I seem to hear sound others can't. Both extremely high and low frequencies. This is after a lifetime of drumming, loud concerts, music and firearms. I don't have an explanation for my acute hearing and can only contribute it to my brain somehow compensating for progressive deficiencies in my hearing, confirmed by numerous yearly audiograms, or perhaps the psychedelics from my early years gave me a lifetime of super hearing! :)
From someone who had hyper sensitive hearing until 50 (I could still hear 17khz), and then instantly losing 4khz of high frequencies and 7db of threshold 10 years ago (from an intentional prank), I can tell you that ALL aspects of hearing acuity matter. The subtle brushed cymbals and spacial room decay are now gone in music. Don't kid yourself, there is a wealth of musical information in the 13-18khz region via harmonics and air. Yes, your brain will try to compensate the best it can, but understand that for most, this loss is so gradual they forget to even miss this fidelity being gone over time. Like any other sense we have, when there is damage, the result is undeniable. If only we could bring back 20khz hearing like we can 20/20 vision. When I was in high school, almost every kid longed for a good hi-fi system, and sat for hours being absorbed in the fidelity. I have lost count seeing how many of those systems end up sold or on the shelf as my peers got older. It's not about having a family and no time to listen, it's they no longer have that goose bump level acuity anymore. Protect your hearing people!
I can still hear out to 8k but things are rolling off already at 4k for me at age 67. The weird thing is that bright systems still sound bright to me and it feels like there is no objective reason they should. I believe brightness is about more than just the last octave 10k-20k but starts down lower at 5k or even 2.5k. Maybe tweeters that are crossed too hot are already hot at their crossover frequency, usually around 2.5k, and it affects everything from there on up.
One thought, since age related hearing loss is very gradual, is I likely that our perception of what sounds natural also changes with it. In that case when we hear sound with boosted higher frequencies we recognize it as unnatural sound?
We relate what we hear from our audio system to what we hear in real life. If we made our systems boosted at the upper end to compensate for age related hearing loss, it would sound way too bright, because that's not how we hear things when we listen to live music.
I am 61 now. And I have been listening to rock music since 1976 and also at non approved volume levels from my mom; I had a Technics SU-8080 with some Electro Voice speakers. What I have noticed now in my hearing is that I am MORE sensitive to higher volumes and sharp sounds. I CANNOT comfortably listen to music for extended periods of time when the level is above 80db. I can still notice details, bass, soundstage, imaging, etc., etc.,... what sounds sharp and metallic, etc. etc....what is veiled and muffled....
Hearing loss as far as loudness, or high frequency loss, as we age is usually not uniform in both ears. One ear may likely hear louder and higher up in pitch than the other one. If you compensate for this by radically using your balance control (another thing, that like tone controls is disappearing), you will just make the hearing loss progressively worse and worse. A better way to do it is to install faster drivers in the speaker on the side where you have hearing loss. So much placement information is supplied to our ear brain system in the first milliseconds of an instrument making its sound. Lets say you have moderate hearing loss in your right ear. If you install a faster responding tweeter in the right channel speaker, like a ribbon tweeter, it's earlier initial attack will lead your ear on, to re-establish instruments coming from the extreme right to sound like they're coming from the extreme right; instead of sounding like they are coming more toward the middle, because of your hearing loss. Just like a magnet, your better hearing ear will shift instruments more to its side in the soundstage. The faster tweeter thing, isn't a full solution, or the only one, but it helps. High frequencies and high frequency overtones are more influential in establishing apparent placement than low frequencies. Anything below 150 hertz is supposed to be totally non-directional and beyond our ability to place where the sound is coming from. Of course ideally, with normal hearing, you would want identical drivers in each channel with identical reaction times. Using different drivers or even different speakers (with roughly similar characteristics) in one channel versus the other channel will cause a penalty in image focus. It will lessen focus; it will not totally destroy it. Of course you could also use a more efficient speaker in the channel where you have volume hearing loss. A centered vocalist image will return, and even with a slight loss of focus, you may find it more tolerable than everything slanted off to the right or off to the left, depending on which side your better hearing ear is on There are ways of making things sound brighter on one side than the other. Anything from re-arranging furnishings, to room treatment, to using Nordost Eco on one side only, to VTS or Marigo tuning dots on speakers which tend to make them sound crisper and more detailed. I use Mpingo wood on top of my speakers, and that can make them sound a noticeably crisper also.
It should never be forgotten that stereo imagery is an illusion. Cd gives the freedom of not having to worry if your phono cartridges alignment is a smidgen off, which make placement more vague. A slight error in azimuth adjustment can ruin things to a noticeable degree. Getting front to back seperation is harder by far. Tubes do a good job of seperating instruments and letting you hear very significant space between them. Pinpoint imaging both front to back & left to right with canyons of space between instruments reveals details galore.Much easier to hear detail when it isn't so crowded together.
Our brain has excpetional ability to equalize any temporary linear unbalance in frequencies. Example we attend loud concert with harsh and empasized sopranos (it is for purpose of maximizing the detailed impression for all dispersed audience) At end we are deaf not for all sounds but for sopranos. It lasts sometime for hours.That is effect of such temporary equalization by brain. When we get older our ears also loose sensitivity usualy to only highest tones but due fact that it affects us not only on concert but 16/24 hrs our brain has it recognized permanently with added and fixed equlaiization to everyday hearing. Because the same weakening process must obviously affect our normal; talks and rain and eggs frying in listening Ageing of ears is equalized by brain . Situation in audio testing is different to listening in reality - it is set to detect the minimum level that can be recognized by person. Thus level is at minimum and due to lack of spare voluume equalization cannot be equally effective as in "loud" listening. Has much in common to elecrtronic - we cannot apply tone controls if we do not provide enough spare amplification. In labooratory tests we remove it deliberately to achieve "yes - no " effect. We may compara testing to listeniong to audio system with weakened loduspeakers and without equalization When we go out from laboratory the effective brain EQ is back with normal sound levels. In younger age the "speakers" are in much better condition and require much less brain EQ. That is my belief and it explains why in laboratory tests we see deterioration in band but in listening to audio we do not complain .
Unless you are getting into situations where you are not hearing things you should, like people people having to raise their voices to you or pointing out how you didn't notice something, I would avoid getting precise measurements of your hearing as you age. This can cause people to get overly upset about their 'declining' hearing and cause themselves undo anxiety. Does music still sound good to you? Then you are good to go. Don't over-analyze it. The fact is there will be some decline as you age. I remember my grandmother in her 80's whose hearing was not too good (you had to speak loudly to her), would listen to her favorite music all the time with a smile and her foot tapping. Her mind may have been filling in some blanks, but she was happy and enjoying it.
I'm 70, tinnitus limits me to 13k and diy sorta bright systems. I like ribbons ,2 in duo midrange . 8 in carbon fiber mid bass. I did car audio ,with really loud drivers. Bass does not injure your ears ,or you would go deaf young. 140 db is too loud to listen to, only fools seeking trophies to set on their shelf to look at and hear ringing for the rest of life, I can still hear 13khz with a lots of power and good tweeters along with reee in my head, Use hearing protection
Be careful of not damaging your hearing while using headphones. It's so tempting to crank up the volume when you know you are not disturbing anyone else.
I'll be 79 in three weeks. When I was a kid, up into my teens, I could clearly hear the high-frequency whine of NTSC black-n-white TV, which I believe was 15.734 kHz. I don't know where my HF hearing is now, but it's been many decades since I heard that 15.734 kHz sound. Aside from aging, I think guns and explosions from my time in the Army took their toll on my hearing.
It is a known fact that only babies and very young children can hear sound tests to 20,000 hz. By the time you are in high school, and I'm not talking about hearing loss from other issues, you can not really hear above 18,000 hz. By the time you get to your late 40s and early 50s, your range is up to 15,000 hz. Most sounds go from the range of 20 hz to 15,000 hz anyway. It's normal. Fun fact: a record LP is up to 15,000 hz, and a CD to 20,000 hz. But yet, 95 percent of all sounds and frequencies that truly come through are up to 15,000 hz. He doesn't need brighter speakers. Neutral and flat is how I have my small desktop amp and Polk XT 20 speakers, and the sound is clear and dynamic.
Is it an issue not being able to hear 10-15kHz when listening to music. There is nothing up there that's enjoyable to hear. I rather think that as you mature, you tend towards a more relaxing, less bright presentation anyway.
I'm 61, and I can hear somebody drop a needle in the next street! ... I can also hear the whine from a SMPS "wall wart!" 🤣 Oh, and I can see in the dark too, because I eat more Carrots 🥕 than Bugs Bunny! 🤣
So inquiring minds want to know... If Paul's brain is so good at compensating for his hearing loss then why does Paul need to wear glasses? Wouldn't his seemingly quite capable brain be able to compensate for his vision loss? Or is it perhaps that Paul's just imagining that his brain is compensating just like he likes to imagine that he looks younger but when he sees reality he isn't young at all. If you have ever sat in a room with someone with severe hearing loss who has the radio blasting at some ungodly volume and managed to ask them about their hearing they would tell you their hearing is fine also, but it's not. The moral of this story is don't rely on Paul's brain to tell you about what adjustments you need to make to compensate for your hearing loss. There are many solutions to adjust your system to your hearing including digital signal processing which can compensate for hearing loss as well as room anomolies.
I'm 63, always wear ear plugs when needed. My hearing is very good, not perfect. Just protect your ears doing lawn work, guns, loud machinery, etc. You will be just fine. You wont even know what your not hearing.
Imaging is 98% setup. I got good imaging with 100$ speakers (old Royd's) and an old Marantz rec. So, one should stop talking about it as an equipment pride point very early in one's Audiophile journey..
![Ice On My Teeth - ATEEZ エイティーズ 에이티즈 [Music Bank] | KBS WORLD TV 241115](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c-n92OgbbwA/mqdefault.jpg)
Paul is absolutely right. I am now 67 and young people are always telling me that I cannot possibly hear the detail in my hifi system that I know I can, but it is best just to ignore them. My system still sounds wonderful and I am not planning to make any changes. Just enjoy the music as you always have.
get your ears tested. they're correct about high frequencies.
@@thunderpooch That is irrelevant. As Paul so eloquently put it in the video, I am still satisfied with the performance of my hifi and I can still tell the difference between a good system and a poor one. It is likely that I can no longer hear some high frequencies but this does not affect my enjoyment of the music.
@@ian_of_glosif you look at a spectrum analyzer, you'll notice everything above 10Khz is less important than most people realize. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have gear as flat from 20hz to 20Khz as possible for best sound. Some engineers use a gentle roll off starting around 18Khz
I am 67 and still doing sound in church...critical listening is my strength!!!
@@mikeschlup5279you are not sure without a test, it changed mine.
I’m 69 and I actually like a “warm” sounding amplifier. I have a MacIntosh integrated amp and Martin Logan Motion speakers and I absolutely love the sound!
I know what you're saying. In my younger years I used to chase "accurate" sound, ie does a piano sound out of a speaker sound exactly like a baby brand. Now I chase a pleasant sound which leaves me feeling "wow" that sounded really good.
There is actually a little bit more to it than just the hearing loss from aging. It is definitely the case that the limits of what you can hear in terms of amplitude and frequency diminishes as you age, but that is just half of the scene.
The thing is that high frequencies (+10K) are not that present in musical material. If they are there, they are there because they are the harmonic of a lower frequency.
In other words, frequencies above 10K don't carry musical information.
The highest frequency a violin can produce is 3520 hz, the highest note on a piano is 4186 hz.
Both instruments produce higher frequencies but only as harmonics of those base notes.
So even in your twilight years, you will be able to enjoy music, on a good sound system, as I'm sure PS audio makes, to the fullest.
Good points regarding the relationship between fundamental and harmonic frequencies.
Most "detail" in our music systems are just isolated sharp impulses or "room" sound from the recording, not actual high (10k+) frequencies. Listeners with slight age-related hearing loss will have no problem picking up on the same details as a young person will. Only flutes and certain electronic music will seem slightly more muted, but still present.
Interesting! So if you strip out all harmonics and keep only the fundamental you could still tell it came from a piano instead of guitar? Please explain how a simple single frequency sinewave produces the variations heard between them.
"The highest frequency a violin can produce is 3520 hz" WRONG! The highest NOTE, fundamental frequency, is 3520 hz.
The ONLY difference between a piano, guitar, drum, ...sound is in the harmonics! The first 10 are considered most critical. In order to KNOW that that particular 3,520hz fundamental came from a violin instead of a flute you need the 2nd harmonic @ 7,040hz, 3rd @ 10,560hz ... 10th @ 35,200hz.
@@glenncurry3041 I hear you Glen (sorry for the pun,Lol).Even with some loss we still recognise the instruments due to their harmonic structure and relationship with their fundamental frequency. I know i'm more or less repeating your point,but it's an important one for recognising timbre and differing time signatures of various instruments.
@@glenncurry3041:: Yes, you are right, The harmonics are what determine the "timbre" (not pronounced timber) of an instrument and are indeed what we need as a listener to identify the type of sound producer. But the energy contents in those higher harmonics diminishes very fast from the 3rd harmonic on and up. Our brains are so adapted to those sounds that they "fill in the blanks" so to speak. Is it the same as hearing up to 20K? of course not. but even if you can just hear up to 12K, you will be able to distinguish a cymbal from a violin. The musical information is not just contained in the frequency spectrum but also in the energy distribution across the frequency spectrum, in the attack and decay of the sound.
I don"t want to get into a "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of exchange here, my explanation is by far not detailed enough to explain how our ears work and how we perceive sound. I was just trying to convey a bit more detail.
This video really struck me. Maybe it's because I'm a few weeks off the heart surgeon's table. But, Paul, I just really want to thank you for these well done, thoughtful, educational videos. Be well!
Hi Paul, being a 73year old and still retain good hearing (according to our NHS). I have to say all your posts are loaded with great and sensible information. More power to you elbow as they say. Cheers Chap.
Thanks!
Paul at 64 and a past audio engineer I know my high frequency hearing is not what it was - but my hearing is probably better than a lot of my peers and I still love listening to music on my hi end system!
Totally agree 💯
Brighter system is a preference in my opinion.
Great video Paul, as always! I’m 62, and I have been a music lover and an audiophile since the age of 17 (a long time ago…) my current system is the most balanced system I ever had, I have a large collection of music, both analog and digital, and I mostly listen at moderate levels most of the time, I still Enjoy the music as much as I used to at the age of 25, keep up the great work Mr McGowan👍🎶
Thanks for your videos, Paul. It looks like your video brought out the Executive Division. Ha Ha. Anyway, I am 67 years and a mechanic who just retired. After 50 years of guns, farming, oil field, semi trucks & shipboard engine rooms I am still doing Ok. I asked my Dad the other day when he started to feel old, up there, in the brain. He referenced high school to be about how he thinks, but I know this man has packed in a lot more knowledge. He told me, when I was about 15, my system will never sound better than my speakers. I don't know if I'm a real audiophile, but I have always loved music. My children are all musicians and have taught me a lot about that. My sounds system is probably about 50K and my friends think I can Boom, but I don't. It sounds real. I tell them Doobies came over last night, and I have a real drum set in the living room. I believe listening is learned, but can you tell me why a 'French' Horn is the ONE Instrument that I can't pin point in a concert. It is just out there, somewhere! PS (not PS Audio) my wife gets upset while I focus on the organ pipes vibrating during the sermon.
These are excellent videos. We don't have this luxury to get first hand information from other manufacturers.
what an uplifting video for me who is soon 58 😊 and I’m glad he asked the question as I had the same question in my head
As a 35 / 68 year old man, your explanation is spot-on, Paul. When I had a hearing test for work in my early 30's, the testing technician got a funny look and immediately re-tested. He told me afterwards the reason: my left ear tested almost perfectly and he thought it might have been an anomalous reading. In my mid-fifties I had a stapidectomy/implant in my right ear for conductive hearing loss, and have had tinnitus for probably 15-20 years in both. Listening to my system soundstage gives me as much, probably more enjoyment now as ever. Hearing ain't great but listening in my mind certainly is!
You're absolutely right Paul, good explanation too. Thank you for all the good work! 👍
At 68 I found a new love for sound quality gone are the class A and the AB amps. Bought my first D class amp and I'm back in audio heaven. If your in this age group get a good D class amp.
Thats great. But doesn't automatically mean it'll be audio nirvana for the next person.
Paul W. Klipsch said "we live in the midrange." Paul would have agreed 100% with what Paul said here. Protect your hearing. Wear ear plugs when mowing the lawn, vacuuming the house, going to loud concerts. You will enjoy your present sound system fully for years to come.
Most of what we hear is indeed in the mid range. It's about getting the balance right.
GM ☕️
After decades of concerts , clubbing and as a competitive shooter..now into my 60’s ..with tinnitus and the natural decline in my hearing …I still enjoy great sound and interesting new musical experiences.
Btw, loved the set up at the Toronto Audiofest this past weekend.
Take care and enjoy the weekend.
Excellent advice. I think we all underestimate the role of the brain in processing sound.
My wife is a stroke survivor. Her sound processing system was damaged. Working with her to rehabilitate provided some insight into it's workings. The brain chooses what we hear out of an abundance of background noise. It works hard in this process. I believe this central to the fatigue and irritation we experience with sound systems. There is no doubt in my mind that Paul's comment about experience and training to hear details is accurate.
'The brain chooses to hear what we hear out of an abundance of background noise' - one of the best explanations of what we hear (or don't hear) when listening. Spot on.
Apparently tinnitus is not actual hearing damage, but the brain trying to compensate for frequencies it can't process anymore, so it fills in the blank with ringing noises, ect, it's more of a psychological disorder...so ive heard...
That's such a great question, so kudos to the gent who asked it. That reminded me that as a teenager, I thought great audio was boosted bass and boosted treble. As I aged, or dare I say matured, I found my equipment got flatter and flatter, and this was a function of my "learning how to listen," or perhaps "learning how to hear." I know full well I do not hear better than I did as a teen. However, I am so much more detail aware now than I used to be, in spite of natural hearing decline due to aging.
Thank you! Even more kudos to Paul for answering my question!
Hi Paul, let me say CIAO from Switzerland. I like your videos and your good sense of humor very much. I am listening to music using headphones (over and in ear) since 1972 frequently and still enjoy doing so at the age of 70😍 TSCHÜSS😀
At 62, I have some hearing loss above 10k but it doesn’t affect my overall enjoyment of music. However, I am a complete headphone/IEM audiophile so I can still hear the effects of those higher frequencies on what I do hear.
But Paul is spot-on when he talks about the brain-ear connection. It’s really our brains that “hear” the music. Our ears are simple mechanisms that gather the sound for our brains to process. It’s the reason why we can adjust to what we hear.
You can listen to a pair of speakers and think they sound amazing but over time, your brain gets used to it and that “wow” factor gradually fades. It still sounds good but sometimes we want to upgrade or try to improve our system to get that back.
The opposite is true as well. You can listen to something that is just OK but over time, your brain adjust to it and it ends up sounding pretty good anyway, not that it is, but your brain sort of extrapolates what’s is good in the music regardless of its shortcomings.
Thats so well explained and so true.
I've recently had my late 70's components refurbished/recapped and am getting back into my stereo days of back then. I replaced my speakers that I had (Dahlquist DQM-7's) and sold with a pair of Vandersteen C1i+. They're very transparent which appeals to my 69 year old ears. It's good to get back to music around the house while doing chores!
What a great video Paul 👏👏👏 well you look fantastic at 75 gentleman 💯👌 I bet your hearing is being taken care of as good as the rest of your body and soul 👊👊👊
I very much appreciate and enjoy your video's gentleman 🎶💯👌 your are always spot-on 💯
Keep up the good work and remember 8Khz is just a number 😊 my 13 Khz R and 14Khz L, is no better than your 8Khz when it comes to analyzing and enjoying your equipment 💥🎶😉 have a wonderful weekend 🥳
José from Holland
(A huge fan of your amazing products 💖)
👏
Another excellent presentation.
I'm 38 going on 68, too.
I would even like to contribute here an opposite effect that I have noticed in myself. With increasing age and therefore also increasing listening experience, I hear "metrologically" less, but have become even more critical with highs. I notice visibly that my internal CPU extrapolates from the mids much better than before.
Thats interesting. As my HF hearing is naturally rolling off with age I seem to have become more sensitive to it.
A video for the ages or should I say “Aged”? Wonderful perspective. Whatever you are doing Paul to look that good keep doing it.
OMG you're so right. 😂, I still think I look like 50, and feel like 30.. but I'm officially old now (65) and starting to feel stiff and so on.... hate that
Great explanation! Again closely matching my thought process. We adjust to our losses as they happen. So pre-compensating on the outside should always make our current hearing recognize it based on existing current reference. Unless the intent is to force information at the ears to compensate for those loses in advance hoping to fool the brain.
Perhaps like being a cheap drunk early on. So now I just add a few more shots? Or I've just gotten to the point where a nice glass of Nebbiolo does the job?
I’m also 50 years old, and I know that my hearing is currently capped at around 13.500 Hz.
Interestingly, I became more sensitive to bright audio systems (they bother me more now) than they used to when I was younger.
It’s also important to get things into perspective, and while a 10.000Hz range seems like a lot, the first one (0 or 20 to 10.000Hz) has exponentially more musical information than the 10.000 - 20.000 Hz range.
Even the B&W example of some extremely bright loudspeaker “voicing” turns out to have a rise in amplitude way below 10.000 Hz, and even then, a very pronounced high midrange or a much pronounced and large dip in the 1 to 4 KHz may be perceived as too much energy in the high frequencies.
Balance is still one of the most important things, and that’s one of the reasons why some legendary audio engineers recorded amazing sounding albums _way_ after their 50’s! 😉
It’s fair to point out that at or above 50 years old, I doubt that anyone can hear the high pitch of an older CRT TV, which a young person certainly can (unless there’s some serious damage), and some audio engineers do have some kind of spectrum analyzer I’m the chain I’m order to be certain that there’s nothing strange under (or above 😀) their radar.
But if we take everything above 10.000 Hz (and even all below 500 hz) of any music recording, no one will have a hard time recognizing music.
The same can’t be said if a brand new set of ears listen only to the musical content above 10.000 Hz. 😉
I know that I’m missing those higher frequencies because I have the curiosity of testing it, and not because I feel like I’m missing them.
So I have to agree with Paul in that “memory” concept of what we used to hear.
If our ears are no longer able to hear 16.000 Hz, we don’t hear 16.000 Hz (period).
But somehow, we don’t necessarily feel like there’s anything missing.
Hearing loss/damage that leads to trouble at recognizing speech is another subject, and that’s why we should take care and protect our hearing as much as we can.
Well said 👍
About the only thing I can't really hear anymore are mosquitoes. Not such a bad thing.
That's kinda nice! They do gove you a little warning don't they? Before they start sucking your blood.
I am 45 years old now and i know that i dont have hearing as i had 10 or 15 years ago. keep the music rolling that is all that matters.
Adjusting aside; You want the system to have a certain amount of realism. If you hear a trumpet with your 50 or 75 year old ears, it will sound like a trumpet. The system shouldn't sound brighter, because then it's not a realistic depiction of said trumpet. It only needs to match your reference of what a real life trumpet sounds like. My blue isn't your blue, but we'll never know.
Many Audiophiles obsess over high frequencies and imagine they can hear up to 20KHz. The average 35 year old male has 11dB hearing loss at 8KHz, which is significant. Good luck trying to reliably hear differences in formats, cables, power supplies etc. Loudspeakers and room acoustics are far more important.
Well said and very true. There are differences in components and cables etc but the speakers and the room are the most significant and obvious.
I (69) got a hearing test and bought a hearing aid; it was a game changer! So much better! A lot of musicians do have this hearing aid too. It’s the Wydex Moment Sheer 440 with an Music module and equalizer. At least get your hearing tested, before buying new gear!!
A couple of things:
I finally gave in and got hearing aids last year, at age 65, after a few years of asking my wife why the actors on TV and movies were mumbling so much, asking shop attendants to repeat everything they said and hopelessly failing to understand what my Indian colleagues were saying on Zoom calls. The trigger to do something about it was listening to an old ELP record and not hearing Carl Palmer go *shit* when he misses a rim shot. If I was missing that, what else might I be missing?
Getting the hearing aids was a revelation. Things sound bright but without the aids, everything is dull and lifeless. I was worried about headphones but an over the ear pair presented no problems.
The other thing is that I was curious about what Paul had cued on up on the monitor behind him, so I checked it out. *A Strangely Isolated Place* is great! Way to go, Paul; listening advice *and* listening recommendations in one video.
It happens. As your ears get older, you unconsciously start to prefer brighter sounding gears. Yourself is not usually aware of it. Yourself usually denies it. But, it happens.
Thank you, Paul, for answering my question! 😊
Paul , thank you for the education - you're a wonderful person as you are funny 😅.
Paul you have what I call a trained ear/listening. Teaching English in another country I find that they simply don't hear certain sounds of the English language making it difficult for them to reproduce them, and the same goes for me as my ear is not trained for their language and I don't hear certain tones their language has making it difficult for me to speak their language accurately.
The harmonics of the base notes matter✨
I'm 65 and used to blow out speakers because I could not hear. Got hearing aids and can now hear all kinds of detail at much lower volumes. Hearing aids have a "music" setting where the "smarts" are turned off. Just amazing! Better living through technology! Get tested people, don't suffer. Roon manipulates the files and then one last EQ in my ears
I agree with Paul’s opinion, if it sounds good to you, just enjoy and forget about others opinions, I might get slammed by the comment I’m about to make but, for regular two Chanel music listening I like to incorporate a equalizer in my mid 1970’s audio gear, I have a mild case of High-frequency hearing loss from the military, this means that certain high-frequency verbal sounds like 's', 'h', or 'f', (the consonants) are more difficult to hear or distinguish from other sounds, I don’t consider myself an audiophile by any means but, I do remember how a song used to sound like before I developed this condition and this method helps A LOT for me to bring it back to that enjoyable level I used to like so much. Needless to state, (this is my opinion), the introduction of synthesizers made lots of people gain the status of record producer specialist, making the hard work and experience of pre-synthesizer era record producers a joke, I personally think lots of music has changed to the point they lack cohesiveness, don’t get me wrong, many producers out there still do an outstanding job, but I guess this particular opinion comes with the help of repetitive listening of present music era recordings.
Love your videos Paul.
As someone in my early 60’s and who played in loud rock bands for 20+ years, there are definite deficiencies across the board. I’m told that I play my music too loud by my 30-ish daughter who never tortured her ears as I did. I do find brighter headphones like Hifiman more appealing than Sennheisers, but I’ve noticed that if I go too bright with speakers or eq’ed highs my ears get fatigued, same as when a microphone fed back on stage and squealed and then I was hearing locusts for most of the night. Bottom line, my system now sounds better than anything I ever had and I did not seek out bright components.
If in doubt. try a pair of Townshend Audio Supertweeters, They also have an amazing effect on midrange and upper bass.
Paul, you really hit the nail on the head here in answering the question. At 52, I have come to realize that my high frequency hearing ability HAS dropped off. It IS disappointing when listening to a favorite recording that's been part of my collection for years. Those nuances that we anticipate are no longer there or have lost much of their pizzazz. It wouldn't be such a big deal if I'd NEVER heard them, but your description of the "memory" effect of what, how we listened and enjoyed in the past is "spot on"!!! But, there is a silver lining: to me it's attention, and maximizing my senses. I do my critical listening in pure darkness whenever possible, fully relaxed and after a period (several minutes) of still quiet in the sweet spot. (Befire rhe music starts) By minimizing anything I can see and giving the music my FULL attention, I find that after a few minutes listening, I become hyper-focused and those subtle details emerge again. Maybe not quite as they were 20 or 30 years ago, but certainly enough to thrill me once again. While I have resisted a tiny tweak of the treble knob, it certainly wouldn't be criminal, would it?
Absolutely not. That's why tone controls were invented for. Doesn't matter what 'technically' you can or can't hear - its what your hifi does for your personal listening enjoyment that matters👍
Howdy. Yeah.
My experience. I am 67 and also only hear up to about 8k.
My old Pioneer headset failed. I bought a JBL headset.
Holy Molly. The difference. I can hear Blackmore and Page actually plucking the strings and the resonances when Bonham hits the brass.
I would imagine that music is quite another thing than just single sine waves. I believe the brain can compensate much of the loss of ear sensitvity. As long the ears can resolve seeds of nuances the brain will deliver a full perception.
Regards.
I'm 73 years old and suffer from moderate to severe hearing loss. -60db at 8 khz. I use an equalizer to brighten up the top end. Just a 12db boost at 8 khz helps a great deal.
If you love your speakers and think you need help in the high frequencies the Aperion supertweeters were a blessing.
Take care of your hearing, people! Last June 9th, 2022, my wife and I went to see Brit Floyd at the Red Rocks Amphitheater near Denver, CO. I didn't have any hearing protection, and the music was much louder than I expected. Well needless to say, I ended up with some high frequency hearing loss and tinnitus, mostly in my left ear. After much searching and doctor and audiologist visits, I now have hearing aids with tinnitus maskers in them. Luckily, I can still hear up to around 13 KHz, but my left ear drops off sooner than my right. I'm 63 years old, and my hearing has always been excellent. Well, not so much any more. Protect your ears!
I concur 100% to what Paul says. However, you may consider some more facts: all loudspeakers have their own „voice“. There is a profound difference for instance between the Infinity Kappas I had before my now B&Ws. Which I prefer (I am 77 years of age) I am not sure, I think the B&Ws (this is why I bought them in the first place). The Kappas with the Emit tweeters are slightly harsh in the tops and the dome minds are not quite as good as those in the English transducers. And this has not much to do with the measured frequency response that is surprisingly similar.
One more thing: the sound what you usually get from TVs is awful. I have connected mine via Toslink to my DAC and such I listen through my complete set. Works satisfactory in general except with speaking voices of actors in many movies. Many have very sloppy sound quality anyways, and now at my age I more often than not cannot understand the spoken word very good. This is where I, what I rarely do, turn up the treble some. This was the same with both of my speakers, they „bright“ B&Ws did not make much of a difference here too. Anyways: enjoy the music! Sound is produced in the brain, without it there is no sound, just moving air.
Our reference is live sound, whether our hearing is not complete or not. The human state has a wonderful capability to fill in details related to frequency response. It has no capacity to compensate for phase errors however.
Some speakers might sound bright even if the tweeter is not the culprit. The problem might be much lower in frequency.
A good tonal balance in your system is much more important than the highest frequencies that you may no longer perceive. Even though you may no longer hear them... those highest frequencies continue to harmonize with the rest of the spectrum. In addition, high frequencies radiate much less energy than middle or low frequencies. Anyone who loses everything between 20K and 10K will only miss 1 octave out of 10. Not all that dramatic...
I am 71 years old and using Klipsch headphones .. sounds good to me......
Hmmm, not so sure about this. Trusting that the overall perception of sound will remain the same only goes so far. I have normal age related hearing loss and actually did notice that my systems were starting to sound dull. With that, and all the other signals (pardon?, TV louder than before etc etc) I took the plunge and got some hearing aids. I was resistant to even trying them but they have been brilliant and the effect on my music listening has been fantastic. Everybody's hearing is different of course, but I think that a good rule of thumb is to go outside and listen to the birds singing (if you have singing birds nearby). If you can hear them you're probably fine, if you struggle then get a hearing test.
I think you make a good point. Normal age related hearing loss is so gradual you don't realise what you're not hearing anymore until you hear it again! Admitting to hearing loss is caught up with vanity and not wanting to admit to actually needing hearing aids.
72 years old... My last hearing test confirmed I can still hear 13khz, which the audiologist said is about "35 year old hearing" ... Paul is totally correct about protecting your hearing. I don't blast my music or movies, use ear plugs at concerts and, fortunately, have never worked in high noise environments.
Think of your brain as having a built in EQ that automatically compensates for the loss of highs with age. Over time we adapt to the slow change and, indeed, I don't really miss what I can't hear.
Also consider that musical scales end at about 4100 hz and except for special effects there is almost no content above about 12khz to begin with... so there's actually nothing to miss!
You forget the harmonics and transients that can go well beyond 12 kHz. You'll see it on an analyzer.
@@Fastvoice
Yes you can ... but at low levels and making little difference to the overall sound. Moreover these are not independent sounds ... you won't hear the 8th harmonic of high C without high C also being played ... so its likely that most of it is inadible to begin with.
When I was 19 I could hear ultrasonic alarm transducers around 22k. Now I'm down to 13.5k. If you are down to 8k, that's a big loss. There's nothing wrong with trying a parametric equalizer before your amp, so you might hear the high tones again.
No equalizer can provide you with frequencies above your own ear rolloff. All you would hear is some kind of white noise - not at all good for the overall sound.
@Fastvoice indeed. But psychologically it might have a positive effect and problem still solved.
I'm 66. My hearing is good up to about 12k now. The only difference I notice in listening to music is that the triangles at the back of the orchestra have gotten quieter. In my early 30's I was using my computer to generate tones. I couldn't hear the 20k tone, but I could tell when it stopped. I used to have 20/15 vision too--the joys of aging.
I'm 82 and have been hard of hearing for 10 years. When I finally went for hearing aids, the HMO paying for them said, that for $1800 more I could get a better unit from Denmark. Well, knowing something about Scandinavian hi-Fi, I bought them. The hearing aids sound more normal at the lowest setting; they are too shrill otherwise. I would never buy B&W speakers even if they were the only ones from which I could detect a sound. It's KEF for me. I'm an audiophile until I die--four hours ago I spent $2000 on a better DAC and am considering PS Audio's new preamplifier. My hearing doctor said she had trouble hearing older British movies. I told her that's because the Brits filmed in rooms, while the Americans did in sound stages. She was relieved.
I'm 71 and had my hearing checked a few years ago and it was rolling off at 12k I've gone in the direction with my stereo rig with full dynamics hopefully 😅 My tower speakers have built-in powered subs and I also have two SVS Ultra 13subs with the upgraded plate amps I suspect I might be missing some inner detail, but the dynamic range down to 18 hz is addictive and I can't get the smile off my face!!😊
Thats terrific. 1. You are lucky to still have 12k hearing at 71 and 2. Your system woukd seem to have PRAT - see Paul's previous video 😅
@@analogueman5364
Thanks as I missed Paul's vid about PRAT I have not heard that term before I'm really careful to set up my stereo rig to have the proper bass output Through DSP & REW I must say songs I've heard 100 of times sound so much more dynamic now being procented full range! Let the PRAT begin 😁 oh if you want to hear my mid fi Stereo rig, look up "Magnepan 7's doing their thing with VAC"
I am 52 and I did not take care of my ears when I was in the Air Force, working on the flight line. So my hearing is not that good. I do enjoy brighter speakers more than the natural sounding muted speakers. I also tend to adjust the EQ so I can hear mids and the highs a bit better.
I think that the human brain has a way of compensating for hearing loss as we age, much like our brain compensates for blind spots in our vision, which we all have from the time we are born. At 57 years old I seem to hear sound others can't. Both extremely high and low frequencies. This is after a lifetime of drumming, loud concerts, music and firearms. I don't have an explanation for my acute hearing and can only contribute it to my brain somehow compensating for progressive deficiencies in my hearing, confirmed by numerous yearly audiograms, or perhaps the psychedelics from my early years gave me a lifetime of super hearing! :)
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Thank you Paul I felt that one
I started using Altec Lansing horn based speakers while in my 50s.
From someone who had hyper sensitive hearing until 50 (I could still hear 17khz), and then instantly losing 4khz of high frequencies and 7db of threshold 10 years ago (from an intentional prank), I can tell you that ALL aspects of hearing acuity matter. The subtle brushed cymbals and spacial room decay are now gone in music. Don't kid yourself, there is a wealth of musical information in the 13-18khz region via harmonics and air. Yes, your brain will try to compensate the best it can, but understand that for most, this loss is so gradual they forget to even miss this fidelity being gone over time.
Like any other sense we have, when there is damage, the result is undeniable. If only we could bring back 20khz hearing like we can 20/20 vision. When I was in high school, almost every kid longed for a good hi-fi system, and sat for hours being absorbed in the fidelity. I have lost count seeing how many of those systems end up sold or on the shelf as my peers got older. It's not about having a family and no time to listen, it's they no longer have that goose bump level acuity anymore.
Protect your hearing people!
I can still hear out to 8k but things are rolling off already at 4k for me at age 67. The weird thing is that bright systems still sound bright to me and it feels like there is no objective reason they should. I believe brightness is about more than just the last octave 10k-20k but starts down lower at 5k or even 2.5k. Maybe tweeters that are crossed too hot are already hot at their crossover frequency, usually around 2.5k, and it affects everything from there on up.
One thought, since age related hearing loss is very gradual, is I likely that our perception of what sounds natural also changes with it. In that case when we hear sound with boosted higher frequencies we recognize it as unnatural sound?
@@jimgardiner1558 Yes, that's the effect people have when they try their first hearing aids. Everything sounds unnatural at first.
When B&W started making bright sounding speakers?
We relate what we hear from our audio system to what we hear in real life. If we made our systems boosted at the upper end to compensate for age related hearing loss, it would sound way too bright, because that's not how we hear things when we listen to live music.
That album by Ulrich Schnauss is some good stuff.
As huband I checked that with above even 70 my wife still sounds for my ears not dull or I wold say someteime I hear her better than in old times.
People really hate EQ out there don't they.
I have a customer who's treble units have to slice my head off for him to hear any treble. ... so this video hits home.
I am 61 now. And I have been listening to rock music since 1976 and also at non approved volume levels from my mom; I had a Technics SU-8080 with some Electro Voice speakers.
What I have noticed now in my hearing is that I am MORE sensitive to higher volumes and sharp sounds. I CANNOT comfortably listen to music for extended periods of time when the level is above 80db. I can still notice details, bass, soundstage, imaging, etc., etc.,... what sounds sharp and metallic, etc. etc....what is veiled and muffled....
Hearing loss as far as loudness, or high frequency loss, as we age is usually not uniform in both ears. One ear may likely hear louder and higher up in pitch than the other one. If you compensate for this by radically using your balance control (another thing, that like tone controls is disappearing), you will just make the hearing loss progressively worse and worse. A better way to do it is to install faster drivers in the speaker on the side where you have hearing loss. So much placement information is supplied to our ear brain system in the first milliseconds of an instrument making its sound. Lets say you have moderate hearing loss in your right ear. If you install a faster responding tweeter in the right channel speaker, like a ribbon tweeter, it's earlier initial attack will lead your ear on, to re-establish instruments coming from the extreme right to sound like they're coming from the extreme right; instead of sounding like they are coming more toward the middle, because of your hearing loss. Just like a magnet, your better hearing ear will shift instruments more to its side in the soundstage. The faster tweeter thing, isn't a full solution, or the only one, but it helps. High frequencies and high frequency overtones are more influential in establishing apparent placement than low frequencies. Anything below 150 hertz is supposed to be totally non-directional and beyond our ability to place where the sound is coming from.
Of course ideally, with normal hearing, you would want identical drivers in each channel with identical reaction times. Using different drivers or even different speakers (with roughly similar characteristics) in one channel versus the other channel will cause a penalty in image focus. It will lessen focus; it will not totally destroy it. Of course you could also use a more efficient speaker in the channel where you have volume hearing loss. A centered vocalist image will return, and even with a slight loss of focus, you may find it more tolerable than everything slanted off to the right or off to the left, depending on which side your better hearing ear is on
There are ways of making things sound brighter on one side than the other. Anything from re-arranging furnishings, to room treatment, to using Nordost Eco on one side only, to VTS or Marigo tuning dots on speakers which tend to make them sound crisper and more detailed. I use Mpingo wood on top of my speakers, and that can make them sound a noticeably crisper also.
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It should never be forgotten that stereo imagery is an illusion. Cd gives the freedom of not having to worry if your phono cartridges alignment is a smidgen off, which make placement more vague. A slight error in azimuth adjustment can ruin things to a noticeable degree. Getting front to back seperation is harder by far. Tubes do a good job of seperating instruments and letting you hear very significant space between them. Pinpoint imaging both front to back & left to right with canyons of space between instruments reveals details galore.Much easier to hear detail when it isn't so crowded together.
Our brain has excpetional ability to equalize any temporary linear unbalance in frequencies. Example we attend loud concert with harsh and empasized sopranos (it is for purpose of maximizing the detailed impression for all dispersed audience) At end we are deaf not for all sounds but for sopranos. It lasts sometime for hours.That is effect of such temporary equalization by brain.
When we get older our ears also loose sensitivity usualy to only highest tones but due fact that it affects us not only on concert but 16/24 hrs our brain has it recognized permanently with added and fixed equlaiization to everyday hearing. Because the same weakening process must obviously affect our normal; talks and rain and eggs frying in listening Ageing of ears is equalized by brain .
Situation in audio testing is different to listening in reality - it is set to detect the minimum level that can be recognized by person. Thus level is at minimum and due to lack of spare voluume equalization cannot be equally effective as in "loud" listening. Has much in common to elecrtronic - we cannot apply tone controls if we do not provide enough spare amplification. In labooratory tests we remove it deliberately to achieve "yes - no " effect. We may compara testing to listeniong to audio system with weakened loduspeakers and without equalization When we go out from laboratory the effective brain EQ is back with normal sound levels. In younger age the "speakers" are in much better condition and require much less brain EQ.
That is my belief and it explains why in laboratory tests we see deterioration in band but in listening to audio we do not complain .
Unless you are getting into situations where you are not hearing things you should, like people people having to raise their voices to you or pointing out how you didn't notice something, I would avoid getting precise measurements of your hearing as you age. This can cause people to get overly upset about their 'declining' hearing and cause themselves undo anxiety. Does music still sound good to you? Then you are good to go. Don't over-analyze it. The fact is there will be some decline as you age. I remember my grandmother in her 80's whose hearing was not too good (you had to speak loudly to her), would listen to her favorite music all the time with a smile and her foot tapping. Her mind may have been filling in some blanks, but she was happy and enjoying it.
Well said.
Thank goodness!!!
That's pretty good Paul I think mine rolls off around 8k and I'm only 46. I guessing your slightly older than me.
I'm 77 going on 28 and people who know me totally agree.
I'm 70, tinnitus limits me to 13k and diy sorta bright systems. I like ribbons ,2 in duo midrange . 8 in carbon fiber mid bass. I did car audio ,with really loud drivers. Bass does not injure your ears ,or you would go deaf young. 140 db is too loud to listen to, only fools seeking trophies to set on their shelf to look at and hear ringing for the rest of life, I can still hear 13khz with a lots of power and good tweeters along with reee in my head, Use hearing protection
Be careful of not damaging your hearing while using headphones. It's so tempting to crank up the volume when you know you are not disturbing anyone else.
I'm 70 and using a signal generator and some Koss studio headphones, I can still hear over 16KHz and find 'bright' speakers very painful.
I'll be 79 in three weeks. When I was a kid, up into my teens, I could clearly hear the high-frequency whine of NTSC black-n-white TV, which I believe was 15.734 kHz. I don't know where my HF hearing is now, but it's been many decades since I heard that 15.734 kHz sound. Aside from aging, I think guns and explosions from my time in the Army took their toll on my hearing.
Roland, from Korg writes: "Yamaha!"
It is a known fact that only babies and very young children can hear sound tests to 20,000 hz. By the time you are in high school, and I'm not talking about hearing loss from other issues, you can not really hear above 18,000 hz. By the time you get to your late 40s and early 50s, your range is up to 15,000 hz.
Most sounds go from the range of 20 hz to 15,000 hz anyway. It's normal. Fun fact: a record LP is up to 15,000 hz, and a CD to 20,000 hz.
But yet, 95 percent of all sounds and frequencies that truly come through are up to 15,000 hz.
He doesn't need brighter speakers. Neutral and flat is how I have my small desktop amp and Polk XT 20 speakers, and the sound is clear and dynamic.
I thought my hearing was still spot on, until i had a hearing test. 40% loss in the 4-5k range, 25% loss in the 2.5-4k range
At 56, I can no longer hear the dog whistle at the end of Sgt Pepper A Day in a Life on the mono Japanese red vinyl pressing from 1982.
Paul, as you age you end up in that place on your screen, A strangely isolated place.
So does this mean your prepping for it?
turn the volume up maybe ?
Is it an issue not being able to hear 10-15kHz when listening to music. There is nothing up there that's enjoyable to hear. I rather think that as you mature, you tend towards a more relaxing, less bright presentation anyway.
Our hearing rolls off but I've learned to listen at a much higher level at 55 than 25.
I'm 61, and I can hear somebody drop a needle in the next street! ... I can also hear the whine from a SMPS "wall wart!" 🤣
Oh, and I can see in the dark too, because I eat more Carrots 🥕 than Bugs Bunny! 🤣
add tweeters or eq.
As your hearing changes so dose the way the world sounds. Your stereo and reality role off at the same time.
"What can I do to be happy with my system in the *ears* to come."
So inquiring minds want to know...
If Paul's brain is so good at compensating for his hearing loss then why does Paul need to wear glasses?
Wouldn't his seemingly quite capable brain be able to compensate for his vision loss?
Or is it perhaps that Paul's just imagining that his brain is compensating just like he likes to imagine that he looks younger but when he sees reality he isn't young at all.
If you have ever sat in a room with someone with severe hearing loss who has the radio blasting at some ungodly volume and managed to ask them about their hearing they would tell you their hearing is fine also, but it's not.
The moral of this story is don't rely on Paul's brain to tell you about what adjustments you need to make to compensate for your hearing loss.
There are many solutions to adjust your system to your hearing including digital signal processing which can compensate for hearing loss as well as room anomolies.
I don't understand. If there is a recorded sound above your hearing ability, do you still hear it?
I'm 63, always wear ear plugs when needed. My hearing is very good, not perfect. Just protect your ears doing lawn work, guns, loud machinery, etc. You will be just fine. You wont even know what your not hearing.
audiophlies protect their hearing volume db from loudness exposure .
Imaging is 98% setup. I got good imaging with 100$ speakers (old Royd's) and an old Marantz rec. So, one should stop talking about it as an equipment pride point very early in one's Audiophile journey..
Hearing decresses but our listening skills improve.