Litterally man thanks for making these tutorials...!!! 1000% appreciated! Since my son was born last August I have NOT been able to flyyyy like I used too! Mabey 5% compared to a year ago😫😫😫 This deff helped with my not being able to mess with Betaflight in HOWWW LONG! THANK YOU BUDDY!
Mark, thank you! Your explanation is always so much appreciated. It's complicated, but you make it interesting and easy to understand. Plus your additional Patreon vid is fantastic!
Mark thank you so much for showing how to do this without black box. At the beginning o couldn't hear the difference between the double revs when adjusted could be my crappy phone speaker though but got the idea of it. This really does help for the people that are short on time or places to fly 💪💯🙏
Oh my quad is way better than before!!. No prop wash no wobble, just smooth flying. Appreciate you. I think its safe to say that 🤔 im getting better at pid tuning
this video answered quite a few of my tuning questions regarding some of my tunes. Thanks for everything you put out man. Cant wait to go out and dial in my rigs!
I know this is an older voideo but I keep going to it to fast tune my quads, even the 3", no black-box... Keep filters as they are on 4.4 and tune this way has solve some older quad problems I had. after some flight then test removing some filters or adding other elements like Thrust lineal and even run with no RPM filtering and maybe try it after, but some of my quads feel great with no RPM filtering, depending on what motors I have on them. Thank you.
I can't get rid of hover/mid throttle oscillation on cinebot30, I wonder if I went to big with 1507's :P arms are minuscule, maybe their twisting? bouncing? I can see the prop guard oscillate in the FPV feed, could be turbulence I guess..
@@Sylo2Nice I don’t have a link, sorry. It’s just something I’ve started doing on my own. The basic idea is motor diagnostic OSD element gives you a visual depiction of each motor’s commanded output. If something in your tune isn’t right, or if you have a failing motor or ESC, it’s really obvious by watching that OSD element. That OSD shows four horizontal lines, where the vertical position of each line represents the motors commanded output. So for example, during a stable hover you should show four still lines in the OSD like 👉🏻_ _ _ _. If your D term is too high, then hovering might show those four lines bouncing around wildly (because your motor output is bouncing around wildly from too much D term). Similarly for snap flips or rolls, you should see two motors blip near max output without oscillation at the beginning and end of the maneuver. In the OSD you’ll see this in the four lines. If your tune is off somehow, you’ll see those lines bouncing around wildly just like what you’d see in a blackbox log of the motor output, or like what you can hear when the motors are oscillating or even trilling. If found this visual depiction to be pretty sensitive. Sometimes I can literally see a problem in the OSD before I can hear it, and while you’re adjusting things on the fly I will definitely be aware of “goodness” or “badness” of a tune adjustment long before I would have a change to review logs in blackbox. Give it a shot. Hopefully you’ll find it useful for yourself as well. Cheers 🙂
I tried to type what the lines look like in the OSD with some ascii art, but the RUclips comment syntax was really screwing with the formatting, ha. Hopefully the verbal description gets the point across.
I could see the wobble you were talking about when you addressed that but I couldn't hear that double rev thing at all. I guess I just don't know what to listen for. I'll probably have to watch this video a few more times to see if I can pick up on it. I've only been at this a few years and just use the default PIDs. So I haven't even dealt with tuning. Sometimes I get a hint of propwash but nothing that really annoys me so I just live with it. However, I do use your 5" freestyle presets.
Lower PWM in ESC firmware is as good as you will get in some cases. Motors spin up faster than slowing down, so this causes an altitude gain in yaw moves. You have to adjust with lowering throttle. Lower ESC PWM frequency (16 or 24khz) - and use of Dynamic Idle in Betaflight - will help this but you will probably still have to lower throttle depending on the move.
My 10 inch does not like p and d anywhere near one another it's more like P 4 times greater than d. If D gets above 50% of P it starts to make noise and wants to fly away. Anything where D is 75% or higher to P, it's a fly away. I download presets for 10 inch and 8 inch as starting points and they immediately resulted in fly ways where I had to disarm to get them down. Maybe I jacked up the filters, but I tried more filtering and less filtering and that really didn't seem to cause the fly aways.
Hey Mark I see that you use the DJI remote as I do the same can you please explain to me what fast sbus on is in the CLI commands I know your to set it in your goggles does it really make a difference
Thanks for great info. I took furious notes and will try it at first opportunity! One question: It appears that this method results in no dynamic damping. Any thoughts why the Devs left the defaults with it on? Or conversely, a comment on why you feel it is not needed.
The intent of Dynamic Damping was to help with wash handling, but it reacts too late. You can use it if you are trying to suppress the D-term, but it is not my first choice as it will make other flight dynamics not ideal; like pro wash. I do use it for Cinelifters on a case-by-case but that is about it. If you want to try it, tune with this method and then raise up to see if it make anything better. In my experience, it doesn't or is marginal.
Thanks for great tutorial! But I have question about filter tunning... Should I tune filters before PIDs or after? And are you going to filter tunning tutorial for BF 4.3 as well? (I've never tune filters, so I'm kinda scared to do that)
Filters are kinda separate thing. If you have 4.3 just hit presets, filters, and use NORMAL with RPM filtering, pick and save&reboot. If your motors are cool just enable sliders and move them up a bit
Why the Master multiplier will be set after FeedForward and not before? As far as I know the master multiplier solves problems or did i miss something?
Great video Mark! For me tuning micro to the hear is difficult. I had a 65mm recently where the motors were flutering. Everything was solid, correctly mounted, and i used your presets. What could drive this? My master was down to 0.7... never went that low. Your presets are great start. On my other toothpicks and whoops they do wonder. Thanks for these.
if high throttle shake, probably a prop balance/frame/noise issue. If on BF, there is TPA that acts on D-term only to help. You could try INAV TPA too. Set Breakpoint at 1750 and 0.8 to see if helps. But in INAV it reduces all PIDS and D is the problem child most of the time for high throttle shaking.
Great! I tried 4.3 recently on my 5" using your tune/filter presets and I'm still excited how amazing it flies right out of the box. Because AUW of my quad is nearly 100g heavier as intended by your preset - this may be a good way to optimize tune. What direction is a way to start in case of a heavier weight - crank PD Gain up or down?
I understand idea of simplify tuning by intermediate slidres, but what difference petween tuning PID directly vs tuing by intermediate parameters? In both case it require some experiance/konwledge (if this then this) and in both cases its mandatory to be aware what are limitation of PID itself and its correlation to hardware (at some point). I do not blame, I just loud thinking.
Excellent explanation! Simple and easy to understand. Can you tell, were you able to overcome physical issue of that frame and make it fly smooth? In the video i see huge amounts of jello and small jitters, which in my experience come from bad frame design and are impossible to fix with tuning
When not using blackbox/pidtoolbox I set D max to the value I wanted but couldn't keep because the motors were to hot. Then D min ends up being a few steps back where I'm sure even a f'd up prop would be ok. Can you see a major downside to this approach?
I ordered a speedybee F7 Flight controller right after you posted this. This approach looks way easier than USB. My build is in a hydrophobe frame and hard to access the USB!
@@uavtech Thanks! Interesting, I ended up at 24-48 for the smoothest performance. 30mm FPV Cycle motors (awesome sauce!), AUW with GoPro H8 and 1800mah 6S is 944g. Your 7-inch tuning guide was a big help!
@@uavtech I thought you included the first sound when starting the roll (doesn't make sense as I think of it). There seem to a a veeeeeery subtle second sound at the end, but I can barely make it out, even in the slomo. Not sure if that works for most people.
The more garbage is introduce in every released the more ugly the quad flight. 6 years ago we had not all this issues, I got quad that flight like a dream with all firmware.
i am a blind fpv pilot and this was super helpful thanks
is the FAA aware of this?
So really ur flying 4pv
The last 2 pack slider vid was my jam, so happy right now lol. Hands down best tune vid out.
Litterally man thanks for making these tutorials...!!! 1000% appreciated! Since my son was born last August I have NOT been able to flyyyy like I used too! Mabey 5% compared to a year ago😫😫😫 This deff helped with my not being able to mess with Betaflight in HOWWW LONG! THANK YOU BUDDY!
Top job again Mark and nice additional video showing the black box on patreon too 👌
Mark, thank you! Your explanation is always so much appreciated. It's complicated, but you make it interesting and easy to understand. Plus your additional Patreon vid is fantastic!
Mark thank you so much for showing how to do this without black box. At the beginning o couldn't hear the difference between the double revs when adjusted could be my crappy phone speaker though but got the idea of it. This really does help for the people that are short on time or places to fly 💪💯🙏
Always helps! Thanks!!
That was excellent.... I slowly putting a new 5 inch build together over the next few weeks and will be returning to this.
Thank you
Oh my quad is way better than before!!. No prop wash no wobble, just smooth flying. Appreciate you. I think its safe to say that 🤔 im getting better at pid tuning
Nice!
this video answered quite a few of my tuning questions regarding some of my tunes. Thanks for everything you put out man. Cant wait to go out and dial in my rigs!
Love the video. It provided some good guidelines for on site troubleshooting. Thanks👍🏾👍🏾
I know this is an older voideo but I keep going to it to fast tune my quads, even the 3", no black-box... Keep filters as they are on 4.4 and tune this way has solve some older quad problems I had. after some flight then test removing some filters or adding other elements like Thrust lineal and even run with no RPM filtering and maybe try it after, but some of my quads feel great with no RPM filtering, depending on what motors I have on them. Thank you.
Good stuff thanks Mark!
AWESOME
ZOMG ESC PWM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thx lol it was at 96Khz... was going mad tuning it
I can't get rid of hover/mid throttle oscillation on cinebot30, I wonder if I went to big with 1507's :P arms are minuscule, maybe their twisting? bouncing? I can see the prop guard oscillate in the FPV feed, could be turbulence I guess..
Heck yeah it’s how I’ve been doing it for years. Listen to those motors pilots! Thanks Mark!
Another good no blackbox tuning technique is to use the motor diagnostics OSD element in betaflight
Whats up bro, do you have a link on how thats done with the osd element
@@Sylo2Nice I don’t have a link, sorry. It’s just something I’ve started doing on my own.
The basic idea is motor diagnostic OSD element gives you a visual depiction of each motor’s commanded output. If something in your tune isn’t right, or if you have a failing motor or ESC, it’s really obvious by watching that OSD element. That OSD shows four horizontal lines, where the vertical position of each line represents the motors commanded output.
So for example, during a stable hover you should show four still lines in the OSD like 👉🏻_ _ _ _. If your D term is too high, then hovering might show those four lines bouncing around wildly (because your motor output is bouncing around wildly from too much D term). Similarly for snap flips or rolls, you should see two motors blip near max output without oscillation at the beginning and end of the maneuver. In the OSD you’ll see this in the four lines. If your tune is off somehow, you’ll see those lines bouncing around wildly just like what you’d see in a blackbox log of the motor output, or like what you can hear when the motors are oscillating or even trilling.
If found this visual depiction to be pretty sensitive. Sometimes I can literally see a problem in the OSD before I can hear it, and while you’re adjusting things on the fly I will definitely be aware of “goodness” or “badness” of a tune adjustment long before I would have a change to review logs in blackbox.
Give it a shot. Hopefully you’ll find it useful for yourself as well. Cheers 🙂
I tried to type what the lines look like in the OSD with some ascii art, but the RUclips comment syntax was really screwing with the formatting, ha. Hopefully the verbal description gets the point across.
@@pmantix yea thanks. I will once i put it back together. Appreciate it
I could see the wobble you were talking about when you addressed that but I couldn't hear that double rev thing at all. I guess I just don't know what to listen for. I'll probably have to watch this video a few more times to see if I can pick up on it. I've only been at this a few years and just use the default PIDs. So I haven't even dealt with tuning. Sometimes I get a hint of propwash but nothing that really annoys me so I just live with it. However, I do use your 5" freestyle presets.
Listen to slow-mo
i ve seen a solution for altitude gain while yawing but i can t find it anymore. need to sort out the tune on a kiss ultra. thanks
Lower PWM in ESC firmware is as good as you will get in some cases.
Motors spin up faster than slowing down, so this causes an altitude gain in yaw moves. You have to adjust with lowering throttle.
Lower ESC PWM frequency (16 or 24khz) - and use of Dynamic Idle in Betaflight - will help this but you will probably still have to lower throttle depending on the move.
My 10 inch does not like p and d anywhere near one another it's more like P 4 times greater than d. If D gets above 50% of P it starts to make noise and wants to fly away. Anything where D is 75% or higher to P, it's a fly away. I download presets for 10 inch and 8 inch as starting points and they immediately resulted in fly ways where I had to disarm to get them down. Maybe I jacked up the filters, but I tried more filtering and less filtering and that really didn't seem to cause the fly aways.
which frame is that bro? looks sickkk for over water!
Hey Mark I see that you use the DJI remote as I do the same can you please explain to me what fast sbus on is in the CLI commands I know your to set it in your goggles does it really make a difference
not really. I would just leave to Normal.
Thanks for great info. I took furious notes and will try it at first opportunity!
One question: It appears that this method results in no dynamic damping. Any thoughts why the Devs left the defaults with it on? Or conversely, a comment on why you feel it is not needed.
The intent of Dynamic Damping was to help with wash handling, but it reacts too late. You can use it if you are trying to suppress the D-term, but it is not my first choice as it will make other flight dynamics not ideal; like pro wash. I do use it for Cinelifters on a case-by-case but that is about it.
If you want to try it, tune with this method and then raise up to see if it make anything better. In my experience, it doesn't or is marginal.
Thanks for great tutorial!
But I have question about filter tunning... Should I tune filters before PIDs or after?
And are you going to filter tunning tutorial for BF 4.3 as well?
(I've never tune filters, so I'm kinda scared to do that)
Can anybody answer to my question pretty please?
Filters are kinda separate thing. If you have 4.3 just hit presets, filters, and use NORMAL with RPM filtering, pick and save&reboot. If your motors are cool just enable sliders and move them up a bit
Why the Master multiplier will be set after FeedForward and not before? As far as I know the master multiplier solves problems or did i miss something?
Great video Mark!
For me tuning micro to the hear is difficult. I had a 65mm recently where the motors were flutering. Everything was solid, correctly mounted, and i used your presets. What could drive this? My master was down to 0.7... never went that low.
Your presets are great start. On my other toothpicks and whoops they do wonder. Thanks for these.
For fluttering, maybe the PID gains are too high. Try turning down the Master Slider.
My 8" so oscillates at times. Higher throttle makes it worse. So my i-term is too high. Im on inav
if high throttle shake, probably a prop balance/frame/noise issue.
If on BF, there is TPA that acts on D-term only to help. You could try INAV TPA too. Set Breakpoint at 1750 and 0.8 to see if helps. But in INAV it reduces all PIDS and D is the problem child most of the time for high throttle shaking.
Great! I tried 4.3 recently on my 5" using your tune/filter presets and I'm still excited how amazing it flies right out of the box. Because AUW of my quad is nearly 100g heavier as intended by your preset - this may be a good way to optimize tune. What direction is a way to start in case of a heavier weight - crank PD Gain up or down?
Thanks for the explanation, but I can’t hear any difference between the first two flights
Listen to the slow-mo sections.
Can you keep 6s pids to be the same as a 4s quad?
Generally yes. Around the edges, maybe need to reduce the Master Multiplier slider a little if 4S tuned is right at D-term oscillation point.
I understand idea of simplify tuning by intermediate slidres, but what difference petween tuning PID directly vs tuing by intermediate parameters? In both case it require some experiance/konwledge (if this then this) and in both cases its mandatory to be aware what are limitation of PID itself and its correlation to hardware (at some point). I do not blame, I just loud thinking.
Convenience. They lean on ratio differences and make it easy to focus there and make faster adjustments without screwing up other stuff.
what does low feedforward do? I didn't really notice a difference until it got too high
lower doesn't do much unless you really move the sticks very very fast.
Excellent explanation! Simple and easy to understand. Can you tell, were you able to overcome physical issue of that frame and make it fly smooth? In the video i see huge amounts of jello and small jitters, which in my experience come from bad frame design and are impossible to fix with tuning
Yeah. I'll check of electrical noise and prop balance.
Im a beginner..
I have a 7 inch quad with 1300kv..but i have only 4s..
How to compensate to fly like 6s...?
Buy a 6S battery or higher KV motors. But higher KV will pull more amps so flight time will reduce.
When not using blackbox/pidtoolbox I set D max to the value I wanted but couldn't keep because the motors were to hot. Then D min ends up being a few steps back where I'm sure even a f'd up prop would be ok. Can you see a major downside to this approach?
Yeah. 4.3 D_min boosts now vs. dampens so now tricky to do that.
I ordered a speedybee F7 Flight controller right after you posted this. This approach looks way easier than USB. My build is in a hydrophobe frame and hard to access the USB!
R.I.P FPV
in the presets tab for rc-link there's no elrs 200mhz would the 250mhz preset work?
Yes.
@@uavtech, thank you!!
I’m curious what you think about PWM modulation? Is there any benefit to using this feature on a 7 inch - for example 16 kHz to 24 kHz?
If you have Mid-Throttle oscillations, I would see if it helps. Otherwise, leave low. If 16khz flies more stable than 24, go with 16.
@@uavtech Thanks! Interesting, I ended up at 24-48 for the smoothest performance. 30mm FPV Cycle motors (awesome sauce!), AUW with GoPro H8 and 1800mah 6S is 944g. Your 7-inch tuning guide was a big help!
so much jello in HD footage, how you would solve this?
Check electrical noise and prop balance.
Electrical noise is "clean" cap is connected. Which prop do you recommended? Best for me is hq 7x3,5x3
I have jello when I dive with zero throttle
HQ i have seen best as well.
Just because cap, may still have electrical on big motors.
@@uavtech I have emax eco 2 2807 1700kv on 4s. And a 1000uf cap. I also ad and 5v cap on rail
Hypersmooth! Jp... bad motor?
A well tuned quad should sound like it gonna blow at full throttle. No?
On a 5" with higher KV, I would.say yet. And that means just for low vibrations at full throttle.
I don't understand. I hear two "P noises" in both examples...
Listen so.slow-mo
@@uavtech I thought you included the first sound when starting the roll (doesn't make sense as I think of it). There seem to a a veeeeeery subtle second sound at the end, but I can barely make it out, even in the slomo. Not sure if that works for most people.
Yeah…. But you always have well behaving builds. Please use smth that freaks out on pitch but not on roll or smth like this.
This is not.a well behaved quad (7"). Lots of roll noise, jello, wobbles
Did you just watched Mr steeles last video? 😂😂😂😂
The more garbage is introduce in every released the more ugly the quad flight. 6 years ago we had not all this issues, I got quad that flight like a dream with all firmware.
hummm... would love to see that side by side. I doubt it thought.
Why not just fly the old release then?
I a matter fact they are in old firmware only new ones get new firmware and is issues after issues after issues.@@uavtech
One sample is Inav, they fix one problem and introduce 5.@@uavtech