Why You're Wrong About "Optimal" DPS
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- Giving my thoughts on the importance of using consistent and reliable DPS, versus optimal DPS.
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agreed. It's extremely rare in this game that you'll find an encounter that requires spreadsheet rotations to save a phase or compensate for a lower DPS player.
During loooong farming sessions I make adjustments based on the following: 1. speeding up the time it takes to get to boss > slightly better boss damage 2. trying to take an extra phase out of the picture. Sometimes this means that I have to be the spreadsheet JRPG menu warrior to get it done. Other times, it means leaving the activity to quickly gear a friend with something Sleeper Simulant equivalent.
Complicated rotations lead to inevitable mistakes which take alot of play time to intuitively know the next best fix to the mistake. Sometimes it's worth busting out the VOD of all players to coach eachother because there are alot of simple but subtle ways to improve team DPS. All it takes is saying "on the next run, can you re apply weaken after your 4th rocket?"
Yep totally agree. Also the "speeding up to get to damage" is highly underrated. I do lots of solo content, so I am always considering ammo economy in my loadouts as well. A reason I love dragon's breath so much, depending on the situation
@@itztizzledragons breath tbh is my fav exotic
It’s the same aspect plaguing D2 damage “meta/optimal” that plagues the whole world in so many aspects.
People focus on “optimal” or “hacks” and don’t focus nor have a grasp on the basics or the fundamentals and therefore become “sub-optimal” at all things.
The getting to damage phase quicker is a great example. Some of what plagued the LFG experience with Pantheon is people being set up for sweet DPS and struggling to even get to damage phases and/or costing revives to put everyone behind when you really need them. Sleeper on Nezerac was a great example. Some people did fine having it be their exotic and did good damage. Other people didn’t do good damage with it for some reason and not having their exotic free hurt them with add clear. You could have a Sunshot and clear the whole map by yourself and with something like a Bait and Switch Cataprach and do as much or more damage than the Sleeper player while not hindering your team on add clear. That or, people saying you NEED to Izanagi and Rocket. However, their damage was very inconsistent because maybe the Divinity player wasn’t very good (at doing an easy task) and you miss a shot and a rocket… or you messed up your rotation and didn’t reload like you were supposed to or switched back too fast so your Rocket wasn’t loaded and you tanked your DPS when in the end your damage is only 120,000 more at your best than someone who was just focusing on hitting their shots with one thing.
Unless you are using something so far off meta it’s dog doo doo… just focus on using one DPS weapon well and you’re going to be maybe 10-15% less damage of someone doing something fancy with perfection… and more damage if they mess up. It’s easy, it lets you equip and focus on doing other things optimally as well and will really help yourself and your team out.
You are becoming one of my fave Streamers for this game
@@boogiedownbully6493 thank you 😊
Thanks for the shoutout!
Completely agree, good damage is actually so simple and vastly overcomplicated by many.
It's even funnier seeing people ego others over their Stasis Hunter rotations that as you said, they would probably mess up 9 times out of 10.
It took me a little over an hour to get a near perfect clip for the rotations vid I did a while back with Stasis Hunter which while cool and impressive is vastly impractical in almost all cases.
Good video!
yeah figured it probably took a few tries! Keep up the good content!
I literally scrolled all the comments hoping you responded cuz I really needed this video I try to hard to replicate all this RUclips jazz but realized yesterday my void gl with envious and explosive light always does better than me messing up some complicated rotation
I built all of my builds around the principle of "ease of use is a factor". The more moving parts you have in a build, or, over specialising your build means there's more opportunities for something to go wrong, which results in less damage or overall performance. I'd rather run a build that can deal 80% of optimal dps 100% of the time than a build that can deal 100% of optimal dps 80% of the time.
FWIW I used Dragon's Breath on ALL encounter of my solo flawless WR.
Combined with Overflow/Controlled Burst Scatter Signal for the 1st 2 encounters and a FttC/KT The Supremacy for the last encounter.
This damage rotation works wonders for me because there's a clear visual and audio cue when to fire Dragon's Breath again, 2 ignitions, while firing the special weapon in-between.
A shame it's not that versatile, like the RoN bosses and Atraks-1 (But then again just Thundercrash her) for example. And I can't help but notice I kind of fall apart when Dragon's Breath is no use.
Being a Titan main probably doesn't do my clan any favors for damage rotations.
Ir Yut and Simmumah probably also examples where while possible in theory, it's doesn't work that well in practice, since there's a good chance they'll dodge the rocket.
Maked me wonder if I want a to get my hands of precision frame rockets so I don't have to worry as much about enemies dodging rockets.
Still Hunt is a weapon I'm still learning when to uses as not a hunter.
I've never had a problem hitting those "anime dps" rotations until reconstruction dropped. I love missing the reload proc by 0.1001 seconds and now my rotation is fried
The way I keep track of it is I just wait roughly double the time that I would for auto loading holster and it’s good to go. ALH is 2.6 seconds I believe and Reconstruction is 4 seconds
@@gavinhazan1415 2.5 reg ALH and 2.3 enhanced but yea. I usually will use a fusion or play with dex mods cause that much of a difference always comes down to handling.
It makes a sound when the rocket is loaded, but you can always go in the enclave and practice if you need, that’s what I used to do
The advantage of recon over alh is specifically that you don't mess up because you were a bit too early. Is perfectly fine to switch to it too early. you can simply wait the 0.5 seconds or whatever it is you missed it by instead of alh where if you swap too early you have to reswap.
I just hate not hearing the cues or having to wait too long for mods.
This video should be a must-watch for all LFG gatekeeping knuckleheads.
I actually just made a new folder to keep info like this on hand. Also i thought it was after every hit since the change?
This is the guy I'm talking about... :/
Your average raid is like 3 hrs
The problem in the community is that a lot of people are worse than they think, but because they watch certain D2 content creators, they believe they have it all figured out. The LFG system on the Destiny companion app as well as the fireteam finder in game is littered with “hunter only” requirements for fresh Salvation’s Edge raid posts. They watched someone say “Still Hunt and Celestial Nighthawk DESTROY The Witness” and now that’s stuck in their heads. Same as how so many people to this day haven’t figured out that the high DPS Thunderlord was doing was a bug that has been patched ages ago.
People may watch Aegis and find it entertaining, but we have to remember that he’s looking at everything from a speed running perspective which practically none of us do. And for those who really are into speed running, they don’t need Aegis to tell them how good Fourth Horseman is for DPS, or how to optimally use Izanagi/rocket swaps.
Tbf, a majority of players seem to struggle to survive through two phases of dps, so I can see why they think still hunt cnh is necessary 🤷😂
I actually thought the opposite. I was watching all these hard activities going "I could never" that then culminated in me getting my first solo master dungeon
Aegis fucking sucks he disrespected my beloved Loreley
Something else people dont seem to understand on the Witness fight. If you're dead, you're doing zero damage. I have out damaged every single Still Hunt Hunter I have come across for this very reason. And I've done it with Doomed Petitioner. Literally just a run of the mill LFR. Focus on playing your life and doing as much damage as you can WITHOUT DYING.
i would agree if still hunt / celestial wasn't so broken and easy to use that running anything else is basically throwing free dps out of the window.
Reminds me of pantheon planets, we got stuck not dealing enough damage for ages, because people were messing up rotations and DOTs were triggering dmg before we could countdown and people kept leaving. One guy suggested just mag dumping GLs instead of trying rotations with rockets and saving any DOT supers till 3rd plate and we immediately beat the encounter
yep. Sometimes the simpler the better
I was super tired when I did planets. I went from BnS Apex and Goldie to my Bipod Apex and Star Eater's Blade Barrage for easier add clear and also more consistency during DPS for the run I cleared it on.
I admire yall for doing pantheon at all. It just sounds like work
Dmg doesn't start ending when you hit him it ends when the threshold is passed so I think you guys were just not coordinated
@@tomekk.1889 it was really fun
Optimal DPS is obviously thunderlord
Obviously, that or outbreak
Rat king gang rise up
THUNDERLORD 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
you disgust me *hugs witherhoard swap off*
I will find you
Pantheon showed me that I got stuck on rhulk week 3 for almost 3 hours because a toxic dude kept trying to force everyone to run Izi/rocket rotation then I would hear them say oh fuck I missed. Even I struggled since I’ve never really used the rotation until then and he was so adamant about “oh if we don’t do this rotation we won’t get the clear” then I tell the dude sleeper two phases and it’s literally free he got mad and wanted to boot me but he had no choice but to keep me because I was the only warlock on the team. I got so mad that I ended saying fuck this and just ran div with ceno and made the other div user switch. It got personal for me at that point cause this dude was talking mad shit even though he didn’t even have highest dps to the rest of the team. When we finally cleared it he literally got out dpsed by everyone else listening to my suggestion and running sleeper. I hard called him out for his shit damage he booted me funniest day ever I really hope that dude didn’t get godslayer.
people like this are the number one reasen i rarely raid at all.
I fully agree to this. Fine example was a clan member of mine that had issues doing damage with B&S rockets during a solar surge so she swapped to Marsilion, which is a Solar GL that had Envious and Vorpal. Her damage improved by quite a bit making the encounters much easier in pantheon with just going for ease of use over meta.
yep. sometimes that small adjustment is all it takes. Things look good on paper but if a player can't execute it, then it is better to find something they can get the most out of
Bruh same I told some ransoms from a LFG to just use xenophage on pantheon with nez didn’t kick them just asked for an adjustment and we balled out
Yeah related to this for caretaker and explicator on -20 pantheon with solar burn we were using gally apex, but I was using recon & bipod instead of b&s and I was consistently getting top damage over my tm8s with B&S apex's... had 1 or 2 of them swap and our damage got better because it's a lot easier to spam 3-4 rockets than mess up the B&S rotation and get 1 or 2 of those rockets hit immune (also 1 or 2 bipod rockets hitting immune is a huge damage/ammo saver compared to missing the B&S rockets)
@@Tomahulk I mean i was using a berserker titan on Nez for example swapping to aeon's for some ammo and then using Heir apparent with a div on and i put on Actium war rig during dps. Lowkey did more then enough damage for a kill and we did actually kill it while i did more damage then people on golden gun in our team.
Metaslaves will optimize the fun out of the game
Tizzle has become my favourite d2 content creator, I love the relaxed conversational style of videos he makes. super chill and informative. keep it up bro!
Something I left up on Aegis’s video on one of the more recent iterations of dps charts is that even though you might not be a speed runner or do low mans at all, some of the strats they employ can really help normal runs (the example I gave was first encounter Prophecy where you can dunk a single mote and it counts for both of the plates depending on their proximity to one another). That being said, I 100% agree that people try to make stones bleed in this game with some of the stuff like optimal dps rotations and 90% of the time it’s unnecessary.
You spoke nothing but facts man, but with a couple caveats that I'd like to add
While it's true most peak rotations aren't practical , let's not forget the fact that high burst dps or high sustain dps are just that, HIGH, and while not consistent - if done correctly you will be doing more dmg than "comfort" dps stuff
When we were doing Nez Sublime, my team and I definitely had to step our dmg rotation game to comfortably get the 2 phases on Caretaker, Explicator, Rhulk and Nez; rocket spam wasn't truly cutting it
But that activity was PEAK endgame, and still we didn't have to utilize the dmg rotations Aegis or Chicken showcase, yet we still got Godslayer; but we still definitely had to utilize more elaborated rotations than just right trigger spam
So in conclusion, it's important to know a couple of optimal dps rotations, but 95% of the time they won't be needed
And besides, it's just hella fun to pull of those insane rotations and blowing all your load on a boss' face
Yes, it is definitely fun I agree! And yeah I know what you mean, in pantheon you had to be more optimized for sure. But that should be expected. And even then, I used cry mutiny on something like caretaker because it was doing great with solar surge
yea i think so too that while having OPTIMAL dps is not necessary in like most of the game OPTIMISED Dps is definetly something that you should build for when doing an activity that requires you to kill boss targets
Aegis does a good job setting expectations so to speak. A lot of his content is through the lens of speed running where optimal DPS actually makes a tangible difference.
I agree. But again, I think the audience loses sight of that
@@itztizzle I disagree, Aegis audience =/= Aegis comment section. If someone is trying and failing to do complex DPS rotations then obviously they need to swap off to get the job done. If someone is trying and succeeding at complex DPS rotations, it usually does not affect the rest of the team. This nuance is something Aegis regularly preaches, in particular with his inclusion of more basic damage rotations to the spreadsheet for Wellocks as well as high total damage rotations to make up for the lacking DPS of LFG teams.
The Whirlwind blade roll was doing more because the pack hunter rockets count towards the stacks, meaning you can reach x10 almost immediately. Pack Hunter has made Whirlwind blade the #2 sword damage perk behind Surrounded.
This would be true but the example he gave was day one. Ergo was not released yet.
@@goose886Lol day 1 Salvations? Yes it was
@@goose886 Ergo was definitely released before day one, the Wolfpack interaction with Relentless Strikes and Whirlwind Blade is the reason that Relentless Strikes was disabled for contest mode
I'll eat my words. I did not finish the campaign before the raid race so i thought it post raid content.
Thank you for saying the things that NEED to be said. A lot of people, myself included, are too focused on trying to get things picture perfect and it really ruins the fun factor of the game. There's a time and place for hyper-optimised builds like with speedrunning, but even in the hardest activities like GMs, using stuff that works FOR YOU is more than enough to get a clear.
true. I mostly do dungeon speedruns and farms where you use dps rotations and some wild strats for certain dungeons but if randoms join and just want a fast run I'm not gonna try force them to learn a swap rotation or use a specific build. I usually play with 2-3 buddies that I speed/lowman with and with 3 or 4 people like that you can carry in pretty much any raid.
I really needed to hear this. I’ve been trying what ever RUclipsrs say is the “best dps ever” and i never get close to the numbers they get. I’ve been testing meta loadouts where you switch guns every 5 seconds vs just using a good gl and my god I’m getting so much more damage with a basic load-out then an over the top, crazy load-out
check out the video I just posted haha easiest DPS ever and it is strong
Optimal dps is easily one of the leastimportant things in a raid, you need to focus more on mechanics and surviving
This sentence is completely backwards lmao.
@@deadchannelfrom2018 lol depends on the raid tbf
@@deadchannelfrom2018 how ? If you are not surviving you can't do damage.
@@deadchannelfrom2018Er, no. The sentence is exactly how it should be 😂
Whenever I Sherpa, or teach people raids, damage is very rarely an issue. Learning mechanics is always a bigger struggle...
Age old saying. Dead dps is zero dps
Talking about the highlight reel thing, that's why I love that esoterickk puts out his fail reels every so often. It gives such a great insight into, yes he's insanely good, but he also fails a TON. I've been big on consistent high damage rather than inconsistent optimal damage.
i agree entirely with this video from the perspective of optimal vs reliable, but only if your sole objective is to get loot and get out. with crafting and spoils outside of salvations edge being brand new, many players (myself included) literally have no reason to do raids other than 4fun or bad raid exotic rng. something that made the game as a whole a lot more fun for me was just doing dungeons and raids for the sake of enjoying the encounters and challenging myself to beat my personal best damage numbers for final bosses, where previously i just never touched it again once i had the drops i wanted unless a friend needed to do it.
I did this for DSC final boss, just glued Cloudstrike on and was consistently in the ballpark with everyone else on my team using double slugs.
Wait, do people still run double slugs in DSC?
That made sense back in the anarchy days, but not so much ever since
@@Hydrodictyon
he might be talking about day 1 or week 1 and no people stopped using double slug post hotswap fix
Even Aegis in his day 1 prep video suggests that you should favor consistency over optimal DPS loadout in that kind of scenario. First priority is to survive, and then we talk about damage afterward.
That’s in day 1 contest mode…. I can’t tell you the last time I died in my most ran raid.
I agree with all your points. I just try to do crazy dps rotations because I find them fun. If I do less damage than a simple damage strategy but I know my damage setup CAN do more damage, than that is inspiration to do more practice. However, sometimes I'm lazy and I literally just put on acrius or something and outdamage everyone on the fireteam. Aegis (I think it was Aegis?) once said that people try to sweat over rotations and what to use when the most important thing to doing damage is being present and active for the whole damage phase. If you started damage 2 seconds late, you're at a severe disadvantage. If you die by blowing yourself with RDM rocket dumping, you're also at a severe disadvantage.
"As long as everyone is trying their best to shoot the boss with something that is not a high-impact auto rifle, that shared primary goal will be achieved" to quote Aegis
Thanks for making this video in a respectful and scholarly way. Another video that reasserts why I love your channel.
I agree with atp that you should use stuff in day 1s that are consistant, BUT i would recommend most players learn powerful dmg rotations like izzy gl apex or izzy sniper cascade gl, its honesty not that hard to practice rotations and if u want to become a better player yourself youve got to put the work in.
Learn is a good idea… learning while you’re trying to clear is a different situation.
TBH, I’d still rather everyone use Sunshot so literally no adds exist.. because 99/100 times for MOST players… using that rotation isn’t going to take off damage phases and damage phases are rarely the problem. It’s people wasting revives.
Great video. I've been waiting for more input on damage rotations from consistency based solo players for a while. Always enjoy your takes based content too.
Very helpful. At moment just running threw the campaign and really enjoying learning the mechanics. Such a great game, and with great CC like yourself it's very handy for us newlights to gain some knowledge..as always thankyou.
I think this is great advice for someone trying to accomplish some specific task like a master raid or something, in that they're better off using the damage strategies they know they can pull off, rather than trying to mimic something they saw someone else use for better dps. Though, even if they're not some god tier WR speedrun holder, I still think it's good to strive to reach those huge dps numbers, rather than be discouraged by the amount of practice it will take. Going through more casual activities like raids and dungeons you're experienced with, there are plenty of opportunities to get practice in with those super complex dps rotations with little to no consequence for screwing it up. Getting practice in low-stakes activities is how you prepare to utilize those strategies in harder content like a day-one raid. Otherwise, I completely agree with the sentiment of this video, and wish someone told me this before I tried using an Aegis rotation in pantheon (I fumbled it and did worst DPS).
A lot of people have no problem doing these rotations perfectly and theres nothing wrong doing that. I enjoy these rotations cuz I enjoy speedruns and lowmans. I have way more fun wiping (with some close friends) till we get that juicy optimal dps than doing boring "consistent" dps.
I still remember when grasp came out me and my friend was duo farming Avarokk when we thought it would be fun to try a duo 1 phase on hunters. We kept on trying for hours, optimizing everything. I am talking about leaving the shank and vandal minibosses alive for overcharge finisher and melee wellmaker for max font. it was before the resil changes and solar 3.0 so the survivability was brutal. We didn't get that 1 phase in the end (we got it when solar 3.0 came out tho) but it is one of the fondest memories i have of this game.
“Tom Bodett here, you’re not good at this game so tone it down buster” jokes aside a really well communicated point that I feel is touchy in the community. Well put.
I agree with all your points! I play Grandmaster Nightfalls a lot when they're out and Izanagi + Rockets just doesn't work without a Cenotaph Warlock or Champion stuns. Stuff like Thunderlord and Leviathan's Breath hold domain in those activities for a reason.
Thanks! I have watched you for a good while now and you almost always make me feel better about the game. I very much enjoy your commentary and I find it very helpful.
Thanks! Glad you enjoy it!
Honestly this is probably the best discussions I’ve ever heard about the truth of dps in destiny. Well done dude.
There's a saying in FF14 raiding about how any damage is still damage, and that a dead DPS is zero DPS. It feels appropriate here, too.
I didn't finish Pantheon because I was too busy with life stuff, but (excluding Atraks-1 and Golgoroth) I pretty much exclusively ran an AHL Mountaintop and AHL rocket rotation. Shoot mountaintop, shoot rocket, filler with sunshot or whatever and then repeat. It never capital-j Juiced, but it was comfy and consistent in an unfamiliar environment, and that mattered way more than optimal.
D2 isn't like other MMOs like FF14 or WoW, where DPS is recorded with precision and uploaded to third-party sites where you can get judged for how good/bad your damage is. At best, raid report records if you cleared or not. The oPtImAl DpS mindset is totally unnecessary.
That thumbnail had me cackling 😂
Yep, subscribed because of this video alone. Such a good take. I am an aggressively mediocre player who gets asked “why are you running that” and then end up putting up solid damage - not because my loadout is optimal but because it’s consistent. I’m not saying I can’t improve because I know I can always do better. But, it’s so nice to hear someone say that for most players simple consistency is better than hyper optimized complexity. Amazing video 💜
I heftily agree with this. I have a set-up that uses Cloudstrike and an Autoloading Cascade Wendigo, using Strand with Thread of Ascent to reload my Cloud. The set up itself isn't as complex as most rotations, but in of itself it manages to outdamage a lot of complex rotations. Even more so, I have now discovered that Doomed Petitioner with Reconstruction and Precision Instrument with Song of Flame just thrown in does an absolute number, in some cases even more than my swap DPS!
First rule for DPS. The person standing is going to do the most damage. Focus on positioning and survival first,and damage numbers second.
dead DPS is no DPS
Bless. This is what I've been preaching to friends who try to copy me when inspecting my damage rotations.
Consistency > Optimal every time. Even though I love chasing optimal rotations and am always trying to squeeze out more where I can, identifying the sweet spot between ease of use vs reward is the most important part.
Even if I teach a friend how the rotation works, if they haven't put in the hours, it won't be consistent, so it's important to practice, but also identify when you just need something simple that does the job, and not to sweat the details so much.
It's why I asterisk every time I post a new rotation from Chicken in my discord. YES, I'm excited bc it's more numbers and I can try incorporating elements, but I am by no means expecting myself or anyone else to suddenly start doing every aspect of it. It's so important to identify what's the most you can do in each encounter reasonably.
There's a reason why Supremacy is still glued to my hip, despite not being the best.
Completely agree! Been saying this to people for years when they question good but not optimal loadouts.
I'm of the mindset of "lazy man's raiding" which is a good ad clear weapon that takes little effort ( sunshot, trinity ghoul, graviton lance ) and a good heavy and special combo for the encounter, finished off with either damage or as clear subclass again depending on encounter. This often nets me the most meaningful kills in encounters and solid damage to match, which help the team far more than a speed runner loadouts.
i feel like doing solo dungeons really hammers home that consistency is better than peak dps
ofc you want decent dps so you dont have to do more phases but especially in recent dungeons, the damage phase is actually where you are most likely to die as well, so you really want something consistent
Optimal DPS rotations are fun to watch, and something that some of us (such as me) will strive for.
But surprisingly, a lot of (if not everything) with raids/dungeons can be done with equipment that is no where near perfect. Hell, with surges now existing there is a lot more options that are not "meta" that should work a lot better now. Knowing the weapon you are using and how the perks on said weapon works are the most important parts.
As an example, I had used a crafted Taipan-4fr, with Triple tap/Firing Line (which of course firing line only works with two+ others) for a long time in my early days of playing Destiny 2 back when I started a bit after lightfall dropped. And even if I wasn't getting "top damage" in my raid/dungeon runs. I was still being able to hit surprisingly high numbers next to teammates who had been using a lot more meta weapons even back then. And feel like steps in this direction will be happening more often going forwards.
If anything, feel like now is the biggest time to experiment and try more weapons with what may work for you. As long as you are able to do your part. Be it doing 1/6th, 1/3rd or similar of the damage needed to kill a raid or dungeon boss in time. There is no reason for you to feel bad about not having the meta anymore.
I agree with everything in the video. As long as you have three people that have anywhere near optimum the other day, I was trying to help a group of new lights get their first vault of glass clear. Then I physically could not do enough damage to clear it in three phases because none of them had almost any exotics or armor. So I ended up resorting to using ergo some with wolf pack rounds just to get it to a three-phase. The only place optimal DPS was needed from an entire team was basically Pantheon
You can basically solo atheon with a proper rotation, not even a complex one either..
@@trafalgarlaw5558 only thing that can do that now is banner titan on strand surge i think. i managed to hit 13.7m in an lfg the other day, and that was right as times vengeance hit 0, so i doubt its possible without surge unless you get lucky with ads coming down to refresh wormgods
@@calusfootpics I mean it's not like they aren't hitting the boss too that's why I said basically, you can probably use veritys here and spam nades for a very simple two phase if not 1
Agree completely. In raids there’s so much coordination w the team, mechanics, etc that simplicity is important to reduce the mental overload (and thus be less mistake prone)
Great points Tizzle, very wisely said. I watched a bit of your stream for Salvation's edge and on Herald of Finality, when I saw how effective you were with a glaive, my eyes were opened. We didn't make it past him on contest, but come normal mode with my clan, holy shit I felt invincible.
glaives are amazing! I don't get why people don't like them haha thanks for tuning in!
This is the best D2 video I’ve ever seen. You addressed all the problems with the meta-obsessed, outlined that a lot of amazing runs are the result of time and practice the average player probably can’t reasonably put in, *and* said the best word: consistency~👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
thank you!
100% agree. Back in lightfall, i lfg'd for a nezzy cp and got roasted for using my tried and true bump in the night. The guy who was upset had an adept hothead, osteo, starfire, and all that, and lagged behind me in dps by about a million. The best part: he also got lower dps than another guy using thunderlord. Truley a humbling experience.
Thank you for finally making this video! I link this to a mate to get him to chill about perfectionism and this kinda stuff helps
Thanks Tizzle! Today I was playing with my brother and my nephew and thinking about what level of advice I should give. This makes perfect sense.
Definitely gave me some stuff to think about, great video man
I have never seen this man before in my life, but I love him and agree. I was using two tailed fox and thunder-crash(with the exotic and when usable) a season or two ago in RON and most other raid, consistently out DPSing most if not all of my team
Okay but shot caller and sleeper was so goated during pantheon.
I watch Aegis and appreciate his sense of what is the absolute best, which tells me the stuff I prefer in tiers B are probably going to work better for me as a more average player.
Literally never thought to do wither and cartesian with apex rotation and it’s easy to pull off and therefore really consistent even if it’s not optimal.
Knowing the top tier strats also encourages me to find an item swap that I know will be lower DPS, but it may just work better for the encounter.
Finally, I care a lot more about total damage than DPS. In the hardest content in the game total damage is significantly important, especially in anything that has damage gates.
A phrase I learned from datto a couple years ago and stuck to me ever since is: "Dead DPS is no DPS", I took that to heart and since then I prioritize staying alive and most of the times I have one of the best damages at the end its not the best but its not a difference that would change anything
This is why I love Final Warning. If your distance from the target reasonable, you’re doing an insane amount of very consistent DPS.
The good ol' "It's reactable"
"But can YOU react to it?"
The thumbnail for this is so good
I actually really appreciate this video. i'm kind of a destiny nub. maybe 6 months under my belt. I find I don't have a lot of craftables and I rarely have this or that catalyst to really hit anything close to meta. I think it would be really cool if you made a DPS for noobs video, where you talk about all the easyish rotations with stuff that is easy to acquire. I truly never know what to use now that the taipan is gone.
right now as a new player who’s caught up, i’ve found that my prismatic dps rotation is so good for run around as well as boss. all i have to do to improve it is get the class exotic item i need and craft the two weapons im using.
it’s the duality grenade launcher
sunshot (farming for z bane to free up the exotic slot)
bump in the night
obviously it’s an auto loading gl, demo rocket switch dps. but the foetracer makes things so much stronger. me and my friend were running the dual destiny mission and completing it with 35 minutes left each time. the last room with the two bosses takes us like 7 minutes.
people like to try to make d2 this super ultra hardcore game when in reality like 7% of the community has beaten salvation's edge so far. i wish it was more like aegis and others try to make it but the majority of it's playerbase are people who complain that duel destiny exists so we'll never see a need for impetus horseman, ever.
While I agree it will never needed that doesn't mean there's an issue with wanting to find what us "the best" and learning how to execute it properly
And as one of those 7%, you dont even need anything crazy for dps, just shooting with a linear or whisper is enough
98% of the time the problem is mechanics and not damage
tbh, I don't think people complain about Dual Destiny exists, but rather it is the only two fireteam members (breaking fireteams) and not accessible to be soloed. For weapons, this is the norm, like raid weapons. But is the first of the kind in D2 for acquiring an exotic armor piece. From all players who ran it, I have only heard praises. btw., I 'am on the complaining side due to the non solo nature of it. There is just a disappointment Bungie hyped those items up as hell as a major feature of the expansion/build enabling, without giving a heads-up how they are acquired.
Amen man. I've been in so many elitist raid runs where meta loadouts are demanded to do a disgusting 90% damage on the first phase still leaving 10% to do on the second phase. I much rather a chill team where we do 65-70% on the first phase with ammo efficient loadouts, and then chill your way to 30-35% until final stand.
Raiding with your friends is different of course, people can compete for damage and try new combos and loadouts and that can be fun, but on LFG where you just want the clear and to clear out of there with the loot, consistency is king.
Thanks for pointing out the confusion of total damage and DPS
Zephyr#2852 Sherpa/speedrunner/lowmanner here, most of the time I try out more of the advanced rotations in normal lfgs where stakes aren't very high, I have most of the important ones down but that's after dozens of lfgs (sometimes 50+ clears) and even then, the biggest dps you'll ever have is simply having no ammo at the end of dps phase, most people are scared of this but its a good thing, it means that you did everything you could, on witness for exemple most teams struggle just because of that, people not being able to fully unload their still hunts.
haha totally. That's how I gauge if I did good damage on witness. If I am empty of still hunt ammo by the end
What do you speed and wanna run smth?
this also goes for builds. saltagreppo and datto used bonk titan for a lot of day 1 SE, not because it was optimal, but because it was simple. it allowed them to focus on the other parts of the game without worrying about complicated ability rotations
lol I literally have said that it is the best general play build in the game for years and have made a build video on it saying it is the best solo dungeon build. Because it is, for exactly the reasons you (they) mentioned
Did Warlords Ruin for the first time a couple weeks back and ended up using Xenophage and sunbracers for the second encounter also had a mountain top. Made it easy while keeping me alive.
general advice for people who do want to use the funny damage rotations- please learn and understand why and how the damage works. copying a dim link without knowing the rotation inside and out will never work. you need to know when to use any assisted reloads(dodge, grapple, impetus), when to swap weapons and to what weapon you need to swap to, and knowing the timings for auto reloads and buffs/timers. all while keeping track of the boss, your teammates and the encounter specific mechanics. its a lot to keep track of (which is why the grasp ogre isnt how a rotations usually looks, cos bro just stands there and does nothing). and if you cant do all of that you are genuinely better off using that edge transit we all have in our vaults. you dont need to out damage your teammates, you just need to do the most damage that you can.
i use the complicated rotations simply because they are fun. the constant inputs, micro managing and game sense required for them is engaging for my 2 remaining brain cells. some of my favorite rotations are things like shotgun quickswaps(the beyond light version and the grapple cancel version) and the recent impetus stasis hunter rotations(the fourth horseman version) because they are fast paced and complicated to learn/master, especially on the vow/ron bosses, which are more movement based during damage.
i mess up every once in a while, but thats fine because its just a game, and we play for fun, so we should do what we find fun.
the best way i found to sum up the day 1 advice- running what works is always better than running what *might* be better. consistency>potential.
My only complaint about Destiny that I've noticed as a new player: The harder you try, the easier it becomes.
UHH, DUH? THAT'S HOW IT WORKS!
No, listen, hear me out.
You get 6 people each running their own little builds doing their own thing. A non-cracked out Stasis Hunter, a Voidlock dropping catas, 2 titans each scratching out what dps they can do without melee, and one or two pro players cranking out millions on the spot with Still Hunt Celes Nighthawk.
Get this team to do something like King's Fall together. What happens? On things like Warpriest, you're doing all 4 DPS phases and trying to stretch every last second of brand claim as possible, while people are frantically running buffs back and forth and freaking out, barely holding together, as the team rejoices clearing with no totems left and 1 second left on the brand after 2 passes. That is a HARD fight for them. They had to go through every phase, face every chance to wipe, and execute to the best of their abilities every step of the way.
Then, get 6 people running optimal OP crazy bullshit builds. Song of flames warlock running div and healing puddle, and 5 Celestial Nighthawk Still Hunt Bait & Switch Aggressive Frame Rockets. Now, sure, they're better players, so of course they're going to have an easier time. But instead of scratching out all 4 dps phases, choking across the finish line, they 1-phase it, each of them easily pulling 5-6 million dps and demolishing the warpriest. One attempt, no secondary add phase, no "We need to generate more orbs", no "OH GOD HEAVY AMMO PLEEAAAAASE!!!!" Everyone cracks it out, then laughs about what a joke it was. And they even get the achievement for doing it all as Solar-Only.
The harder you try to set out that meta, the bigger the gap in damage, even if you perform it less cleanly than you could have done so optimally, the more you just *do your best*, the more mechanics you skip, the more phases you don't have to deal with, the less you have to learn in the fight, the easier the game gets. This game, quite literally, PUNISHES you for having fun, and rewards you for trying your hardest to play as little of it as possible. This game doesn't WANT to be played. It wants to be broken and forgotten. Everything in this game screams for you to break it and cheat the system. Find ways to skip bosses. Find ways to skip mechanics. Don't play it. Don't learn it. Don't enjoy yourself. If you do, you will make yourself and 5 other people actively suffer and not have fun, and it will be your fault. Just equip the Div. Just Celestial Nighthawk. Stop trying to think so hard about mechanics, we won't see any, we're doing the Wolf Pack Sword Melee One-Phase skip strat. Don't worry about who's going up into space and how to pass or which of the clones you kill, just shoot who I tell you to shoot after I say shoot, and we're one-phasing him. Come on, I'm trying to farm weapons here. You want an emote out of the fight? Go back to Leviathan, just swipe your credit card, buy it out of the eververse, and while you're at it pick up a Still Hunt, you're swapping to hunter next week, and don't throw.
And if you don't believe me, swap one of your hunters to a strand hunter with sweet business as an exotic and stompees for good-feeling movement, and tell me how those dps phases and raids feel to you.
I agree with the points you're making in the video, I'm just here to say 9:57 damage cap on a body shot is _crazy_
so glad someone is saying this i love to tell my friends to use what works for them cause being dead is not DPS
If you're capable of doing those optimal DPS rotations, more power to you. But if you're not too comfortable with them, you can use easy to use weapons and still hold your own. I don't understand why this is so complicated for people to understand.
Been saying this to teammates for years use what works for you so glad someone else is saying it
on the topic of simple and consistent, i highly recommended grand overture. The weapons functions so well on its own without any fancy rotations and set ups, I can design everything else around staying alive and getting to dmg.
Shit's straight up insane w hazardous propulsion
Comfort and ease of use is always important - with that said it does not mean the spreadsheet made by Aegis is completely unnecessary. It’s just made for a different crowd - speed runners. They need to achieve the optimal dps if they want to finish as fast as possible.
But to be honest this video opened my eyes for certain loadouts that I considered useless (like heavy weapons with vorpal). I don’t recommend Vorpal even for newbies because of the low damage increase, preferring perks like BnS, Precision Instrument, and Focused Fury that give more power to your DPS but does not require you going out of your way to activate them (like EL that if you do 1 thing wrong you screwed the dps phase). But Vorpal is always activate so you don’t need to do anything except use the weapon.
yeah I usually don't use vorpal either tbh. Everything is about context. WR bosses have high health so you need high total damage. BnS is better, but I do not have a BnS solar GL. So I go with the next option available that can match surges. Matching surges is usually always the way to go. We had void surge on master Nez back in the day and I told people to run royal entry rocket. It was outdamaging god roll apex predators. Do not sleep on a 25% damage bonus. 25% x 10% from vorpal is 37.5% more damage. BnS is only 30%. It really is just simple math. Then add in the fact that cry mutiny has huge reserves so is great for total damage on meatball, and the fact you can pump out at least 14 shots per phase, all with a matching surge and triple solar surge, and suddenly you see why it's so strong. Even bait and switch loses damage on the first shot of a rotation. Vorpal is always active. Extremely CONSISTENT
I completely agree with this. However, for me, it's a hard mindset to break of "i know this works i just need to get better." So ill mentally refuse to switch off until i feel like i got it down, only to always think "well maybe just a little more pratice." Then it just constantly loops.
Consistency is the key, that is why some groups use Thunderlord and soon Microcosm. 1 missed shot from them isn't the end of the world but 1 missed rocket is 8 to 10% of your total burst damage.
Dang I wish more people heard and understood this. Ive been saying it for awhile, but if you can't even make it to dps none of it matters
This guy is cooking straight facts, i used heir apparrent and some random trials sniper in the rhulk encounter with my raid group and dealt more damage than everyone with more optimal dmg loadouts.
I use Izzy Edge Transit with envious and BnS, sucks when you die, but it's chill and holding left click with a 18-20 shot GL is very satisfying xD
the other very important thing about sleeper and levi breath is they have low precision multipliers, so if you miss a crit it's not a big deal. this adds to consistency
So funny seeing this video today, i just did a clear of edge of salvation and i usually enjoy trying to perfect the over the top dps rotations but i instead opted to run the star eater novabomb build on warlock but using microcosm and supremacy as my weapon damage and we killed the boss with a 2 phase doing and me doing 5.2mil beating 2 hunters bc nova is just aim and click and microcosm is hold down left click after super haha. Great video and a very good reminder to alot of players
I remember back in Atheon solo days, random BS would just kill an attempt. There's a reason that the KISS principle exists, simplicity breeds consistency breeds speed.
slow is smooth and smooth is fast haha
The optimal damage rotations pretty much exist as the “this is what top tier players are doing and here’s how to do it” so that if players want to learn those rotations they can. The issue is a lot of them are fairly complicated for less experienced players so it’s not fair to force that on to them.
If you can perform the more in depth damage cycles then go for it, but it shouldn’t be mandatory when the majority of players can’t do them.
There’s still a ton of value in observing optimal dps strategies though.
I would like to say, one upside of learning a rotation and doing more "optimal" dps that really helps
You can make up for another person messing up...
If bob missed a bait and switch proc, YOU having learned some more mechanically intensive dps can make up for them.
This only works if you want to practice and learn these rotations, and they fit with what your team is doing, if the team is doing ghally rockets and you want to use a sniper rotation maybe not ideal...
Either way, being comfortable with a "simple" dps is worth it especially if it helps your team GET to damage even
The only time I go for "Optimal DPS" is Crota. I like to use Tractor and swap to Heartseaker with two shotguns. I've hit 8 mil in a single DPS phase on Hunter with this strat a couple of months ago. I learned it to help with carries and then it just became the main way I run the encounter. It also only relies on me so it's not like my teammates can mess me up.
and by all means, if you are capable of that stuff and doing it consistently, then do it. I am the same way tbh. I would run no mic LFG taniks CPs for my weekly red border and run starfire, witherhoard, demo rocket and usually had double the damage as anyone else. Made it an easy and consistent one phase. But I KNOW how to do the starfire grenade rotation (or knew before the nerf). If someone was trying to copy my strat but didn't understand it, their damage would probably be worse than just firing off a bunch of rockets with clown cartridge and no damage perk. As long as we had a gjally on the team, I never told anyone else what to run. I would just do my thing and get the clear
Very true, we had a hunter day 1 edge that insisted he would do as much dps as three of us with the still hunt rotation on 2nd encounter. So we changed up our approach, put on a div for him and watched him do less damage than the titan sitting in the well spamming light attacks on his shins 😂
I think that Hunter just had a skill issue 😭
@@gavinhazan1415 i mean its defintly higher dps when the situation is right lol
@@feircy exactly my point bro didn’t know what he was doing. Out of curiosity what were the titans running?
@@gavinhazan1415 juat triple void burn with frenzy/whirlwind strikes guillotines. And the solar gloves
@@feircy thank you
My old clan leader needs to hear this. Not only does he make his team do some silly combo, but the vast majority of times i played with him he would ONLY do exploits (and repeatedly fail) instead of just doing the encounter.
Honestly, my team found out that as most of our revives got taken by people not being able to survive the Witness damage phase, we resulted in those 3 players doing general ad clear around the arena when that happens, after popping celestial still hunt and goldie. Cleared it no problem after that!
Plus, trying to squeeze every bit of damage you can get doesn't really matter unless you can reach a "x-phase" threshold (such as turning a 4-phase into a 3-phase)
If no amount of optimization can make this normally 3-phasr boss a 2-phase boss, then it really doesn't matter. You just have to be good enough to hit at least that 1/3rd mark
Optimal DPS rotations are Destiny's version of Johnny Combos. You either land them and it does very well or it just doesn't. What happens if the combo fails comes down to whether or not you (and your build/loadout) are prepared/capable of falling back to neutral and just doing good damage with some ham-and-cheese goodstuff options.
Absolute BASED take. Unless you are competing for world first or failing due to enrage timers, you're fine. I have several friends who are always trying to do something they saw on RUclips who end up asking how I did the most damage and the answer is "I landed my Nighthawk and then I fired 200 rounds of Marsilion."
It's super cool that people are out here cooking up weirdo shit and completing raids faster than my team will even get through the first encounter, I hope they're having a great time doing that. But if you're just joining an LFG dungeon group you do not need to achieve top 1% player dps, a two-phase Ecthar isn't going to kill you.
Another tip with day 1 raid damage from my experience. Reliably being able to get to damage is more important than optimal dps. I've matched with people that equip meta dps options but struggle to even get to dps phase, often dying along the way. A team that can consistently get to final stand after 3 damage phases is MUCH better than a team that can "potentially" 2 phase but have no ammo for phase 2 and can't consistently even get to the first damage phase.
Obviously this still requires hitting crits, but I am huge fan of the 4th times + rewind supremacy roll where you just hold left click and the thing just loads ammo into the gun for you.
Was consistently hitting the mini damage checks on warlord’s final boss solo with 2 totems using it when I did my solo flawless run of it
Eyy another sleeper enjoyer; I’ve been pointing and clicking with my deletion beam for 7 years. Even when it had garbage ammo economy it was still stupidly easy and consistent to use
Haha same. I love sleeper
my two cents on the topic
for me a simple damage rotation that kept me near top or top of damage despite being on well and all i used was just using cart+apex and 3x solar surge
real simple weapon swapping
i slowly showed some friends how to do simple damage rotations that required very little out of them and they started hitting better numbers
simple point and click stuff like thunderlord can be fine for most things
but if you want to get better and for other to get better just go step by step
no point going from point click thunderlord all the way to some nutty loadout swap used to solo nez
just start learning how to manage weapons with auto loading/recon and your damage will improve
i love my vorpal cartesian for the same reason
Agreed. While yes, dps is important for some bosses and for faster & better rotation. With the amount of stuff being thrown at you i.e boss' attacks, timers ticking down, teammates moving around. Adding an optimal dps on top of that is just downright a bad idea and distracting.
Personally, i just stick to devourlock + witherhoard + cataclysmic w/ bait switch for ALL bosses and raids. Been using it since WQ and i will keep using it despite being "suboptimal"
I agree. I try to push my DPS with decent strats, but I will prioritize safer advice for the less skilled players in my raid groups. I will be running rockets or GLs but if someone is detonating themselves every time or can't handle BnS, I'm fine with them using something safer or easier.
bonus point, your overall shooting will likely be more optimal if you disable mouse smoothing. That setting on PC is bugged and when you turn it off ingame, its still actually on. It has to be disabled by editting the game file in notepad, changing 2 to 0 for mouse smoothing. Its a big difference
As long as you two phase a boss, optimal DPS is not technically necessary. However, a better first damage phase leaves a lot more room for error for the two phase second phase. It also helps you to not risk failing objectives again and so on.
The biggest revelation I've had as a seasoned destiny player is that 99% of content from youtube or just generally online shouldn't be taken so seriously. Destiny changes drastically based on your playstyle, and finding something that is more suited to you is infinitely more important than copying someone's "meta" build. I like aegis specifically because I can see individually what weapons are better than others in specific roles. Knowing which gl does 5% more damage overall isn't really that important, but ultimately, seeing your damage numbers be the highest on the team will never not be worth it for me.
Mate hugh thanks, following your advice i used cry mutiny for pantheon and helped me get god slayer. Sometimes ease of use is better
glad it helped! That's what I aim to do with this channel! It helped me get Godslayer as well haha