[Game Designer Explains] The Reasons behind the Difficulty of Whitney's Miltank
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- Whitney's Miltank terrorized an entire generation of players, for numerous reasons. Some were intended by the game's designers, and some weren't.
Let's look over them.
![[Game Designer Explains] Why the Pokémon Elite Four was created to be Deceptively Easy](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6ibKcU8QWJA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Game Designer Explains] Why the Pokémon Elite Four was created to be Deceptively Easy](/img/tr.png)
![[Game Designer Explains] Designing a Superboss, feat. Red from Pokémon](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8FMjZHckZm0/mqdefault.jpg)
~Music Timestamps included below~
Leave suggestions on what the next video's topic should be down below. This was the last pre-prepared script I had, so I'm more or less free to talk about anything now. I've already seen a few comments in other comment sections requesting for Misty's Starmie.
Next video will be somewhat delayed, as I'm moving from Singapore to New York (the state, not city) to study a Masters in Business Administration, meaning things will take a while to settle down. It’ll take some time before I get the free time to start on the next video
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0:28 - Vs Egg Dragoon [Sonic Unleashed]
1:17 - 4 Minutes Before Death [Ghost Trick, Phantom Detective]
3:21 - Vs Johto Gym Leader/Elite Four [Pokemon Heartgold/Soulsilver]
7:00 - Fate Changed [Ghost Trick, Phantom Detective]
12:02 - The Defendant's Antechamber [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]
13:51 - The Great Cross Examination ~ Moderato [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]
14:53 - The Great Cross Examination ~ Allegro [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]
17:26 - Prelude to Pursuit [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]
18:33 - Pursuit ~ The Great Turnabout [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]
19:31 - 221B Baker Street [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]
it might be a little close to the TM video, but an analysis on how learnsets have evolved over the generations and how it's affected overall game design might be cool
something like how early gens had really bad learnsets and required more teambuilding as opposed to newer gens having better learnsets and allowing pokemon to gain coverage moves instead
A video on Cynthia would be cool. And maybe one on Norman and his team.
One pokemon archetype I personally love but don't hear people talk about is something I like to call mimic-mon. Electrode (criticising Electrode for just being a pokeball is like criticising a Mimic for just being a chest, that's the point) Sudowoodo (love how it's a rock type because it's petrified wood, which could be said to mimic real wood, and it's also hinted by its name (pseudo wood(can you do parenthesis inside parenthesis(screw it I'm doing it anyway)))) Amoonguss ( gen 5 loved copying gen 1 homework) and Galarian Stunfisk (possibly the most unique mimic-mon as it's overworld look is different from normal items) could be interesting to see how different Pokémon handle the same task.
Been thinking a lot about Pokemon boss design lately, its a topic I'm fascinated about that isn't covered much on youtube. A couple video ideas.
You could do a video on a Champion Battle. I'm fine with any, likely whichever you prefer. They're the big climatic battle, but how climatic they feel can change dramatically based on very small changes such as how Greta doesn't lead Glimmora or how Black and White have 2 back to back tough fights instead of a Champion Battle.
If you ever need a shorter video idea, I think a few minute video breaking down why Pokemon level curves are usually designed to where gym leaders are higher level than the player The player has an inherent stat and strategy advantage that gets bigger as the game progresses.
If you want to make it longer but still keep it as a shorter video, you could also go over a few exceptions, such as fittingly Whitney who is barely above Bugsy. Its a short trip to Goldenrod from Azalea, and the huge area of land you get access to at that point has a forest, 3 routes, and the National Park. You're likely adding something new to the team around this point, and this area servers to train it up.
Roaming Legendaries could be interesting too. They're a very interesting concept
As a kid, Whitney was a point of frustration for me. Nowadays, I've come to appreciate the battle for its ability to force me to think. I wish there were more stuff like that in the Pokémon games.
The fact it was also an accident goes to show that even back in the old days, the Pokemon company never wanted to give us hard battles
@@spacecookiez5045because pokemon isn’t dark souls difficulty isn’t irrelevant the point is a fun adventure with your best friends
I kind of wish I had experienced milktanks difficulty. As a kid I had a geodude, and luckily killed it in two magnitudes, so I feel like I missed out.
"Literally just use pretty much any non-damaging move to disrupt Rollout" isn't some unreasonable level of difficulty. In a game where the baseline difficulty is a 0 out of 10, Miltank is a 2.
@madnessarcade7447 I totally get that. I wouldn't want Gamefreak not to make the games accessible to kids. But I feel like a hard mode wouldn't be an unreasonable ask. At the very least, keep set mode and let me turn off the exp share.
You missed a counter. In National Park, which can be accessed before facing Whitney, there is a Dig TM. Due to being a two hit move that makes you unhittable by most moves for the charge turn, you can force Whitney's Miltank to constantly miss, thus prevent Roll Out from getting to the higher tiers of damage
Man, I don't think I've ever thought of that! That's actually pretty smart!
@@TheEmeraldWeirdo I'm convinced that they put dig there just in case someone decided to sell the Mud Slap TM or something. Both Mud Slap and Dig are basically just PERFECT counters to Whitney.
Depending on the version - you can also pick up a female Nidoran in either National Park (Crystal) or Routes 35/36 (G/S and HG/SS). Evolve it into Nidorina for Double-Kick. It's even better if you can obtain a Moon Stone early (through your Mom's random shopping calls) for a Nidoqueen.
The tactic I used is that I set up with an X-Attack (obtainable in Union Cave even in your first trip) when her Clefairy is out to boost Nidorina's Double Kicks. KO Clefairy then spam Double-Kick until Miltank is down.
i remember beating whitney the first time as a kid with no issue, so i was always confused to why people said she was hard. i couldn't remember how i did it but this reminded me, lol
i had a dig quilava lol
Dig saved me hours of frustration
I've heard Whitney's Miltank being something called a "Scrub Filter", as in a boss that tests you by throwing at you problems that the conventional player would probably be using, causing the player to be required to think of a new strategy. It was actually in a video about Yo-Kai Watch's game design and the topic for Yo-Kai Watch was Snartle, an optional super boss that scales in difficulty with your watch rank (higher rank equals better yokai available to the player and new areas, and it's always required for the main story you get to Rank A, S rank is post game). And fighting this super boss this way is the only way to befriend this powerful Yo-Kai early game, and in the second game onwards is the only way to befriend Snartle. So when an unexperienced player accidentally runs 1 to many red lights and triggers Snartle, they'll probably wipe out, while an experienced player not only can try to survive the fight, but might even get an amazingly strong teammate out of it
but unlike Snartle, Whitney is a boss you NEED to defeat in order to move into 4th gym because of SudooWoodoo before Ecruteck city. when you trigger the superboss event in Yokai Watch, its most of the time skippable and returnable later in the game with better allies and items. Whitney had none of them.
lets see: because of jotho's structure, the Early Game ends in 4th gym. because of this, there are considerably lesser options to defeat whitney unlike the SuperBoss you can defeat at Aftergame. lets Compare Whitney to Red; the Superboss of the Pokemon GSC and HGSS. Red has levels, stats, moves and coverage to defeat every single trainer that comes unprepared. when you get defeated by Red, you say 'oh yea, i was unprepared for this because i didnt think this much power diffirence between Red and Blue.'
because: 1- you have all of the pokemon available to you, 2- you can get equally powerful moves against Red's team, and 3- you pretty much fight red in equal grounds.
whitney cuts more than half of the Jotho region unavailable. that means no more than quarter of the pokemon in the game is accessable, and most of them are unevolved due to LV limit of 20. considering the lack of EXP in jotho, lack of counters against the gym leaders (other than predescribed geodude, onix, gastly and Trade Machop), lack of STATS general in jotho, and perfectly molded Miltank to roadkill entire teams, this gym was a deadly roadblock for many impatient trainer appearents
@@wrigthtalekenavi2066 well, it does it's job effectively. You got better because a boss made you get better, and that means it's doing what it's trying to do. The player has options, they just have to use them. If you don't like using items, that's on you, if you don't want to use a Geodude or any other counter, that's on you.
@Mimiyan_or_Pikapikafan yeah there is such a thing as a too difficult scrub filter, but Whitney is not on that level. There are plenty of options and strategies
@@assortmentofpillsbutneverb3756 ok fair and thanks for that insight. When I ever actually start making my own video game, I'll keep in mind that a too difficult scrub filter can be a bad thing.
Scrub filter is right.
Evee since I've started playing pokemon I loved using status moves, screens and stall in general.
Every stall player would deal ok against Whitney, it's the hyper offense with no brains that gets owned the most.
Honestly, having such difficulty checks in the game design is great, because it truly elevates and dramatizes the Pokémon designs. Whitney's Miltank would probably have been an obscure Pokémon without that, despite its design mirroring Tauros and its relatively massive basestats. Like you said, having iconic Pokémon in PvE is great for the game's legacy, as hard iconic battles give individual species their charisma. Garchomp would have less appeal with it not being the master's ace in Pearl, Diamond and Platinum, for instance. Pokémon feels empowering and you have a perceived progression due to acquiring stronger and stronger monsters, but battles are the one way to objectify strength, and characters give relatability to the franchise's universe. I like a strong ace like that, it increases replayability because every time someone decides to play particularily the game they have strong challenges to plan out or struggle toward.
Garchomp has appeal?
I'm late for this but I think your garchomp take is misgided, garchomp is an extremely powerful sweeper pokemon, the use of it in a bossfight is what made the bossfight memorable not the pokemon
@@nechocat1234I think both can be true. It made the boss fight more memorable, and the boss fight made it more memorable.
I remember, as a kid, while I definitely did do the "mow down the whole game with an overleveled starter" thing on my first playthrough, on subsequent runs, I tried to raise a balanced party and, for me, it made it a lot more fun. By the time Gold and Silver came out, that was pretty much my playthrough style, and while Miltank did send me packing a few times, I do recall my friends having a much harder time with her.
I always felt like this whole fight was set up to push back against the tactic of blindly sweeping the entire game with your starter and make you actually engage with team building by forcing you to look into the many counters you listed in the video.
I've actually always loved how Johto gives you counters to the gym leaders nearby if you look around. Kanto does this, too, like putting Diglett Cave right next to Lt. Surge! I think it's a great little layer of design
As painful as this fight can be sometimes, its one of my favorites in the series. I can't speak for Gen 2 which I haven't played as much as the remakes, but the approach to fighting Whitney is more methodical than the rest at most skill levels, and a huge variety of Pokemon in the remakes are viable Miltank answers so in HGSS at least it truly does feel like you can just out strategize the RNG Cow.
It also helps that the best options against the first 2 Gym leaders are also great here. Sure they put counters near Whitney, but Geodude, Onix, and Mareep/Flaffy are all decent Miltank options that do good against prior fights. All the starters have ways to either chunk Miltank if you explore Goldenrod, or ways to reduce its threat. Plenty of other mons can also do this.
Funny enough it wasn't Whitney who managed to do this for me, dig and the fact that my Quilava was the only Pokemon I bothered leveling meant I could avoid her roll out stacks and just try to get battle without attract to win. Then of course an overleveled Typhlosion with the eventual moveset of Flamethrower, Thunderpunch, Earthquake, and Strength just kind of obliterates everything.
The first time a Pokemon game stopped me from smashing it with just the starter was the Gen 3 Elite 4 with Swampert. He just couldn't cut it with his weaker special attack, meaning his ice attacks would be pitiful against the dragons and his water attacks weren't so great either. Nvm getting one shot by Cradily if you could make it. I remember even battling with only my starter in those games Swampert would only be level 52 or so after gym 8. Not enough to overpower the E4.
I wish there was a cap mechanism that prevents your pokemon from levelling above the level of the section's boss. This way you are forced to raise a proper team. The gym badge obedience thing isn't enough.
@@aerrae5608Gen 3 level scaling is immaculate
@@majungasaurusaaaa Eh. I don't like taking choice away from players. It's like those fan games or rom hacks that give you ordinary tools like any Pokemon game, aka no access to hidden abilities, no breeding items, level caps, etc. While the enemies get full competitive teams with maxed EVs and IVs.
That's not difficulty, it's unfair. Restricting a player to play the way that you want them too via the stick method makes for a game that is enjoyed by a niche set of masochists.
Pokemon Insurgence has the right idea. Enemies are like above, but immediately after your first gym you get access to breeding with all required items, a quick minigame to stack loads of cash, a secret base with a level and EV trainer, ev training items, grass with Pokemon with guaranteed hidden abilities, and a great assortment of ways to build perfect movesets.
That's the kind of system and grinding that's rewarding cause you can build your whole team right away and start enjoying the benefits against equally competent teams.
If Pokemon wants to get harder I'd love that, but I won't be happy if they don't also embrace QoL. Make everything tough, but give me easy, convenient tools to make my dream team and let me enjoy the meat of your game, not sit there fiddling around with the side dish all day.
I was amongst the few who never thought Miltank was hard. That was mostly due to, as I learned, out of happenstance luck. My first playthrough of Pokemon Silver, I caught a female Geodude and a Gastly, which I so happen to use with great effect. I remember using Gastly's Hypnosis and Curse combination. The Curse was absolutely lucky as I didn't even know what its effects were and I just thought to try it out. I remember being angry that my Ghastly took half its health away upon using Curse, but while Miltank was asleep, it was losing health and that helped me calm down a little (I was like 9). Then I swapped with Geodude and finished her off. This strategy I would continue to use on Whitney for subsequent playthroughs and it was so effective, I never even knew Miltank's full moveset for the longest time. I didn't even know it had Attract as it never had the chance to use it. So as I got older and the internet collectively condemned Whitney, I never understood why.
Now NORMAN from Petalburg on the other hand, kicked my f**king teeth in on my first playthrough of Ruby and that was my Whitney equivalent. I just didn't understand how Slaking worked....
I think the 2 main reasons Norman isn't as infamous as Whitney are 1. He's later in the game so you can catch more counters, and 2. One of the starters was fighting type.
A couple of quick things from my perspective:
Firstly, I was also someone who didn't ever really struggle with Whitney, due to deciding to grab a Geodude early on. I can't remember if it was female or not because it's been so long (I played it when the games first came out), but due to it resisting Miltank's attacks, I didn't have a tough time with her.
Secondly, I would argue that one of your starter options being fighting typed doesn't actually help you all that much unless you take the extra time to grind it to level 36 to get it fully evolved. This is because of 2 factors: Slaking's stats are extremely high, especially for a Pokemon you face roughly midway through the game or so, and you're unlikely to have anything else that even comes close to it's BST at that point in the game. Additionally, double kick isn't exactly that strong, especially when taking into account the aforementioned fact that your starter probably won't be fully evolved by that point. Because of this, I almost always have had much more trouble with Norman than Whitney myself, which feels weird to say given Whitney's reputation for being so difficult
@@edmg7 the thing is that norman is the 5th champion so you have time to "hyper-train" your starter, so even if you pick the wrong starter, you can still have 10+ more level than his slaking
@@christophehuguin4227 I might agree with that being one of the main reasons if it weren't for the fact that there's nowhere to train between Flannery and him.
@@edmg7 i mean if you solo with the starter, against whitney you would be around lvl 20, but against norman you can easily be at around lvl 40 (in which case you would be steamrolling the entire game if you continue soloing).
The only gym leader who's a challenge is Wattson (in Mauville City) if you don't have a ground type
I'm starting to appreciate these sort of puzzle boss Pokemon in my later years. I think Pokemon games genuinely benefit from boss fights that encourage the player to diversify their team. That being said, the Striaton Gym was a lot more graceful in its excecution. Maybe that could be a video.
Plus they stand the test of time, being memorable and challenging (the level-capped nuzlocke rules also make games funnier I think)
@@EmiliaHoarfrostI sort of soft-implement that rule in basically playthrough i do, whether I'm doing a nuzlocke or not
I wouldn't call the striation gym "graceful" IMO.
"Here's this monkey. INPUT MONKEY TO WIN GYM BATTLE."
One thing I do love about this Miltank fight is that for all the heat Chikorita gets, this is one of the places it shines the most, as Bayleef gets access to Reflect either as a Chikorita in the originals or exactly at the time you'd challenge this gym in the remake, and since it's already the bulkiest of the starters, can poison Miltank (in the remakes Miltank does have the Lum Berry but you do still have the survivability to do it again), and either already has Synthesis or will get Synthesis with just a few more levels to essentially beat Miltank at its own game, it really ends up being a solid answer to this fight (assuming it doesn't get screwed by Attract or flinch).
I went into her gym with a team of 5 and the freshly hatchted Togepi from the egg you get earlier. My team managed to get her into the red and by sheer luck, Togepi managed to take it down. Got like 6 levels from it^^
GOATepi
Reminds me of an experience I had with a Paras one time when I was playing LeafGreen. I'd caught the Paras explicitly to teach it Cut, but when Misty's Starmie took out the rest of my team, Paras managed to paralyze it with Effect Spore, and the combination of paralysis luck, Leech Life restoring its health, and the fact that Misty's AI kept making her use Rapid Spin instead of Water Pulse since Paras resisted Water moves meant that the untrained, under-leveled HM Slave managed to single-handedly take down Misty's ace and earn me my second badge.
Togepi is a lifesaver if you level it up to tank two or more hits! A single Charm makes that Miltank significantly less stressful, even though your stress shifts to being scared of crits now 😅
The Miltank having the scrappy ability to help deal with Gastly in HGSS leaves it a bit susceptible to fire blast from Quilava. I used that to muscle through it a couple times after inflicting status on it. For those who don't remember, the fire blast TM is in the Department store.
What do you mean it 'leaves Miltank susceptible to Fire Blast'? The ability in question is Scrappy, not No Guard. Scrappy passively gives a Pokemon the effect of having used Foresight.
@@devonm042690 If miltank had been given thick fat instead of scrappy, gastly would have still been a check for miltank. But since their likely goal was to have counterplay for it with scrappy, that means a fire Pokémon like Quilava can significantly damage it with fire blast. I think it 2 hit KOs most of
the time especially if quilava has the Charcoal
And since when is the department store available before the third gym badge? Having fire blast that early breaks the power curve pretty handily. The dept store is only ever available at the earliest after badge 5-6. I call BS 🤨
Edit: then again, Johto is weird af with its scaling and it’s been over 20 years since I played it so 🤷🏽♂️
@@SerDerpishThe Department Store is right there in Goldenrod City.
Thick Fat Miltank would have been rude to Quilava
A very BIG mistake when it came to designing Miltank's counters imo is that ALL of the counters are gen 1 pokemon. Most people, especially kids, who play the new gen want to play with the new pokemon.
Yeah... I just use Geodude. 😝
Sadly that is not only a problem with that battle. That is a problem with all gen 2 games in general
This is a lesson I learned as a child. You don’t always get to use the Pokémon you like. You use the Pokémon that works.
@@Joeseph_Kerrnuzlockes also force that philosophy, and it's good to keep in mind, jusjust weird when wanting to experience new stuff.
As kid I navigated to known Pokémon as I had no idea how to evolve and what moves they have. We had no internet to check stuff xD
I remember playing silver back in 2000 using a guide book, even back in the day the people who wrote the guide book were well aware of how difficult this boss fight was. The high difficulty is not a modern internet mandela effect.
Great video! I remember from the Pokemon anime, Ash lost to Whitney's Milkank the first time he tackled Goldenrod Gym, so he came up with some really crazy strategy (and he didn't even win the second time? He just tussled Whitney enough so she thought Ash deserved the Plain Badge), so there was definitely some sort of self-awareness after creating Miltank.
No. What he did was challenge Whitney to a rematch on her father's farm, where he was able to use the ground to dig trenches, forcing Miltank into the air and leaving it more vulnerable. Granted, he expected to battle Whitney in the Gym proper afterward, but she gave him the badge anyway.
@@fictionfan0 Uncle, not father.
@TheEmeraldWeirdo In my defense, it's been a while.
@@fictionfan0 Perfectly understandable.
In their first battle, Ash easily took out Whitney's first two Pokemon, only to get reverse swept by Miltank. In the farm episode, Ash challenged Whitney again, but he used all 3 of his Pokemon in succession against Miltank. He asked to get a proper 3-on-3 rematch at the gym if he could beat Miltank 3-on-1, but when he won, Whitney decided to just give Ash the badge then and there.
honestly, i love having boss fights like these... where they are super tough until you explore a little to find a secret something (pokemon in this case), which would defeat the boss easily... i remember there was a boss in FF VI where it was an undead, and thus took damage from healing items, and when you used a phoenix down it would instantly vanish... i love those types of bosses! =D
The train? Just make sure you suplex it for the meme first
Whitney isn't much of a problem once you realize that lowering Miltank's accuracy a few times means that Rollout's damage output is rarely ever going to build to dangerous levels. Falkner even gives you a tool specifically for this with TM Mud-Slap. Paired with something like Geodude or Onix, you can stall long enough to ruin Miltank's accuracy, giving you an opening to go on the offensive.
Great point. I wonder if mudslap was an intentional counter for Miltank knowing that Geodude and Onix were clearly placed as the counter pokemon.
@@clanedogg1 I don't think so. I think it was more self-contained, intended to teach the player to switch out of stat reduction and that PP limits applied to opposing pokemon as well (10 is an abysmal PP count for early game moves). So it was probably a happy accident that it also worked against Miltank.
In the instance the player wastes TM Mud-Slap, there are other sources of accuracy reduction for Whitney, such as HM Flash paired with something that can induce sleep, or Sand-Attack from a Sandshrew from Union Cave or Goldenrod Game Corner depending on version. They are somewhat less consistent though.
Yah, but kids don't like moves like mud slap.
Remember, most of the players were younger than 10 when playing during GSC
@@clanedogg1 Oh it was 100% intentional. Didn't you ever find it odd how SO many early game pokemon could learn it?
It’s really nice to learn the meta reason for why things are the way they are.
I’m very interested in this sorta stubborn “Hit-it-til-it-dies” player mentality. I know I’ve certainly fallen victim to it, especially in much harder games than Pokémon. I feel like I know why it exists but I dont know why.
I also wonder why sometimes game designers don’t think about this mentality. Maybe they also know it exists but getting into game design changes the way you think about games, leading to a sort of disconnect between game designers and the average player.
I don’t think that there’s much that could have been changed in this scenario. If you find on Onyx/Ghastly etc. you’re rewarded and if you try to brute force it you’re punished. The game rewards a certain type of behavior, even when it’s frustrating to a casual player.
The channel Extra Credits (though it's since refocused to Extra History) discussed something that might be relevant. First Order Optimal strategies (FOO strategies) appear if you have an easy method that works, but then don't give players enough reason and methods to learn something else before it's relevant; basically, players tend to use the first strategy that works, and if nothing pushes them out of their comfort zone, they'll tend to have that first strategy ingrained as a FOO strategy rather than learning to explore more strategies.
So if 'hit it until it dies' works for long enough, you're effectively trained to look for ways to make 'hit it until it dies' more effective- Pokemon single-player is a pretty good example. Most wild Pokemon and generally at least half of a trainer's pokemon die quicker than your team does if you just keep hitting them, so by the time you encounter walls like Onyx or Miltank, you might not see even simple strategies like '1 tail whip to lower defence, and 5 tackles > 6 tackles', or 'if I hit it with Hypnosis it can't hit me back or heal', because why would you? Tail whip and Hypnosis are wasted move slots if you're grinding, and don't come with big health drops or flashy Super Effective messages- they're useless for 95% of fights, so when you finally reach a situation they'd be massively more effective than yet another Tackle, you just look for bigger damage numbers and a better DPS race instead.
Personally, I believe the answer to the question posed about game designers and the "hit it till it dies" mentality isn't necessarily that they don't consider that to be a factor; the way I see it, if they did, they wouldn't have put as many potential ways to help you beat Miltank in the game by the point you have to deal with Whitney's one. I believe it's more that they can't, because there is one critical factor that needs to be considered: Pokemon isn't like your typical RPG game, where you have certain characters in your party at particular points in the game, potentially enough so that if a specific combination of them that you're using is struggling with a certain obstacle, you can change up your strategy to try to better take that challenge on. The problem with Pokemon is much more so that a game designer can't design the game to be able to let any player get around this kind of problem, and the whole entire reason boils down to one simple element: choice. Any player could potentially have any of the Pokemon that are able to be encountered, including the ones that were mentioned in this video that help to mitigate the threat of Whitney's Miltank, and therefore have access to them, but that doesn't mean that they do, rather it's because they somehow missed their chance to add one of them to their team (maybe they didn't have enough Pokeballs on hand to catch something), or more likely, they made the choice to not use one of those Pokemon. While this does make fighting Whitney and her Miltank more difficult, it's more so because a player made a conscious decision to not use those Pokemon, and there's not only no way to guarantee that a player will have one of them by that point, but also no way to make them use it, either. At best, you're being incentivized to use them to make your life easier, but if you don't have one of those Pokemon for whatever the reason, you either need to try to figure out a different approach or try to add one of them to your team, and a player may not be willing to go out of their way to get one of them, even knowing if it would be beneficial.
It's also generally forced by game designers. The number of series I encounter where bosses are immune to 90% of your kit and the only option is to press Meteor enough times to win is absurd (and yes, I am calling out Final Fantasy). Pokemon is better than most in this regard, but it isn't immune to this issue either (RBY Brock, for all the good intentions, basically didn't care about most of your options).
@@DawnTyrantEo I feel like I definitely experienced FOO when playing slay the spire. I didn’t understand how the game really worked so I would often play lots of cards like “Big Combo?” And when it worked I was like “BIG COMBO!”
So “Big Combo” was just my strategy and I never learned anything else even though I was routinely punished for it.
I think with a better understanding of how the game works now I can play better. (Or not, I love hard games but hard games don’t like me ;~;)
@@DawnTyrantEo lol respecting extra credit
I'm going to go out on a limb and say the designers probably knew Miltank was overtuned. Whitney holds the position of a gatekeeper in the same vein as Misty (both have an overtuned pokemon, both have significant areas beyond them to explore, both prevent access to the mid-game). The intent probably was to force you to explore the region after she crushed you the first time, something which is reinforced when looking at the experience distribution (I've checked every bit of fixed exp prior to the Radio Tower takeover in Silver). It's just between rudimentary AI and a more exploitable movepool, Misty isn't as strong a brick wall.
I think there was another factor that the devs didn't think about when it came to the available counters for miltank, the 'newer' pokemon that were introduced. All the pokemon counters offered were all from the first generation, which (based on my own experience) felt like being offered hand-me-downs in a new fresh experience. (I am aware how silly that notion is, but I grew out of that eventually.)
Anyway, it's interesting that there was a gen 2 pokemon that was in the vicinity that would've been almost a near perfect answer to miltank, but wasn't acquirable; sudowoodo. It has an impressively high def and atk stat and even usable moves with low kick, rock throw, and even flail. But the fact you need to defeat Whitney first to then be allowed to challenge Sudowoodo felt odd. (like they could've had a second obstacle requiring the badge that wasn't the "tree" and just getting to goldenrod was enough to get the squirtbottle)
Oh well, hindsight and all that, y'know.
Kadabra is another decent option to deal with Miltank because it can outspeed it and actually do good damage because Miltank is mostly physically bulky, but one of the biggest things you didn't mention is how vulnerable it is to stat reductions. Once you've used some Growls, Sand attacks or Mud slaps it doesn't pose much of a threat anymore and I don't think Whitney has full heals to deal with status effects like Paralysis either.
Miltank does carry a Lum Berry in HGSS, so there's that
Growl is indeed your best friend here.
It dosent work like that@@evanhaukenfrers4765
Any stat lowering move is also a counter, either by making it not be able to do any noticeable damage even with a full power Rollout, by making it unable to keep its HP up with Milk Drink, or by preventing Stomp or Rollout from hitting in the first place.
Man, thinking back, I remember getting very excited at catching a Geodude early in my Gold playthrough. That must be why I don't remember getting traumatised by the Miltaknk.
tl;dr for my breakdown: Whitney is canonically inexperienced, and makes up for that through RNG that the player almost certainly has options to play around regardless of experience. If the player has experience with the game before and puts some thought into the fight instead of pressing buttons like the other gym leaders, she can only win via RNG, fitting her inexperienced character. This is a consistent pattern across multiple team compositions.
Ok admittedly I haven't watched the video yet, but I want to bring up something with Whitney's team in general, not just the Miltank. Her team matches how she's displayed in game really well, and its a big part of why I like her as a gym leader. She makes up for some of her canonical flaws, with massive amounts of RNG that can still be played around quite well. I'd say this fight teaches new players how to deal with some serious RNG bullshit, in a way that can be easily played around. For the record, I'm mainly speaking for HGSS here. As a kid this fight didn't make me rage. It was one of Pokemon's hardest fights for me, but not in the angry way like most people view it. It taught me how to deal with things not going my way in Pokemon, and forced me to use my brain to beat it. And once again, its one of the Gym battles that most reflects the character in how it achieves this.
One of Whitney's defining attributes as a character is how new she is to Pokemon. The other gym leaders all have experience. Falkner is the son of the former Violet Gym Leader, Bugsy's a researcher, Morty and Chuck each train albeit very differently, Jasmine is implied to be a strong gym leader and is experienced with more types than the other leaders due to formerly being a Rock gym leader, and Clair is an experienced dragon tamer.
Whitney is the odd one out here. She got into Pokemon recently, finds them adorable, and just so happens to have been good enough to get her position despite the inexperience. If she was naturally gifted or intelligent, that might explain it, but once again how she is displayed doesn't match this. She is not a naturally skilled trainer to make up for her inexperience. There is no evidence to this, and in fact there is evidence that she's as capable as you'd expect from someone lacking in experience.
How do you make a fun, challenging boss fight out of someone who isn't characterized as easily titled and inexperienced? This is Pokemon, a game with plenty of RNG elements. It's easy to imagine she just fluked her way to the top. A lot of the cutesy innocent Normal types Whitney is implied to adore learn a lot of RNG moves at early levels, hence the Clefairy. The Clefairy is either an RNG nightmare, or easily overwhelmed by your likely stronger Pokemon. It's more RNG than her Miltank, but being a Clefairy gives a more straightforward answer.
This then prompts out the Miltank. I can't speak for GSC on this, but in HGSS even if you give her additional Pokemon like Furret or Togetic via romhacking, the Miltank is almost certainly what comes because of the exact same reason Clefairy went down quickly. Miltank by this point in the game has statistical dominance over you. But the set doesn't match what you'd expect a Miltank to excel at. This isn't a Scyther killing you with U-Turn or Gengar spamming Shadow Ball. Other than Milk Drink, this Miltank is designed to be RNG hell and similar to Onix its stats were likely designed with its boss fight function in mind.
The 100 speed means that even with the EV and IV advantage of the player Pokemon, she almost certainly outspeeds. The high defense and solid HP also means she's annoying to take down physically. Several of the answers to the cow are physical attackers, so this prevents being able to just outright kill Miltank or put it into a loop of Milk Drink until it dies which would get old quickly. Specially, although its not frail its fairly average for this point in the game. Goldenrod notably in Gen 2 and its remakes is when you get access to a lot of high power special moves that can easily 2ko the Miltank. Outside of Machop, and Self-Destruct mons, moves like Fire Blast from the Game Corner/Department store are your highest damage options for Miltank. Still though, its tanky enough to give it plenty of RNG opportunities.
Although its strong for this point in the game, its not ridiculously strong. It's offensive power doesn't come from its power, but how RNG lets it spiral out of control. Attract is gender-based and inflicts the 2nd most annoying status ailment in the franchise. Stomp has a 70% Flinch chance, which pairs well with Attract. Notably in HGSS her Miltank has Scrappy as an ability over Thick Fat. Good call, as Thick Fat would invalidate Quilava and Stomp being able to hit Gastly means Gastly won't force the Roll-Out chain to start. Ghost types losing their immunity is actually a buff here because the AI will try to kill them with Stomp instead. This is a chance to heal up another Pokemon if you're using items, or try to get rid of that Lum Berry with something like Hypnosis.
Roll-Out if it keeps hitting keeps going until it becomes the 2nd highest power move in the game at 480, only behind Explosion which is 500 power due to halving defense prior to Gen 5. But that's if it hits. It's only a 10% chance to miss, but it's a chance that it takes over and over. It's also locked into Rollout, which provides opportunity to hit the Miltank hard without it being able to heal, or just status it. Note you have to status it twice for it to matter, but most early game attacks in this game have a chance to inflict status so as the battle progresses the odds of not inflicting status become low. Roll-Out is an opportunity, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't gotten unlucky and lost as soon as it was clicked. The thing is, outside of Milk Drink this fight is an RNG based right and the game has given you several solid ways to play around the RNG at this point.
You can trade a Drowsee for a Machop. This isn't likely to be found by new players, but if it found then it resists Roll-Out and can smack Miltank hard. If you're a new to the franchise player like I was when I first fought her, you've likely been catching a wide variety of Pokemon, including mons like Geodude. If you're more experienced, you're still likely to have a Geodude because it makes a good HM slave after this point and is really useful in the early game. It's comparably strong as Miltank, has it's own Roll-Out, resist both its attacks, and has high physical defense. Similar mons like Onix take barely anything. Onix in particular lives 5th turn Roll-Out without a crit, and can use Screech to soften it up for other team members. In a similar vain, Croconaw with Scary Face eliminates the Stomp Flinch altogether if it doesn't get flinched. Bayleef can Poison it, Paralyze it, set up Reflect, or just stall for Roll-Out misses with Synthesis. Quilvava is the best starter at just hitting it hard, with either Fire Blast, Leer + Flame Wheel like in the speedrun, or Quick Attack if it's low on health.
These are just a few options. Not even mentioning others like Sandshrew, Paras, Kadabra, Scyther, or any number of Pokemon between the start of the game and Route 36, the farthest you can access by Whitney, you almost certainly have options to either play around the RNG, or use RNG tactics yourself. Just by statistical probably, half your mons are likely immune to Attract anyways rendering much of what both Clefairy and Miltank does invalid.
On a first playthrough you have the options to deal with her, but you're as inexperienced as her. You aren't well-prepared, if you're young enough you probably are playing like an AI. Your movesets likely lean more towards the RNG dependent options than they would on later playthroughs, and your type chart knowledge is still limited. But you have options. She is a tough fight that you can do. On later playthroughs, you have the experience advantage over her. Most team compositions by this point in the game have options to deal with Whitney. I never found myself without answers, I just had to think about it. If you think about what your answers are, Whitney will only ever win through RNG, which is something the player is also capable of doing rendering it a moot point in her favor.
I wish you'd mentioned something about her clef. It gives players the opportunity to set up (eg with defense curl), and yet it also is the bane of speed runners, because it knows Metronome and easily can end your entire run if it calls on the wrong move.
Miltank is just simply a boss among bossmons. She's fast, she's fat, and she hits like a semi-truck. Either get your levels up or find a monster specifically meant to tear through Normal types or resist both Rock and Normal attacks. It's very much a gym meant to teach you a lesson.
A Kung Pow reference? A man of culture I see
It's great to run into a fellow game designer like this! Nice to meet you!
Actually, I was originally going to use the scene from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure where Joseph grabs the Red Stone (edited to the Plain Badge) and runs away from Kars (edited into Miltank), but the Kung Pow joke was too good. So I used the Jojo gag as the thumbnail instead.
How could I possibly pass up on stealing that scene to use as a gag for this video? It's too perfect for this topic.
I've run across like four RUclipsrs now in their first few videos sub 2000 subs that made Kung Pow references, which is a quick way to my heart in my book. Anyone who likes Kung Pow and/or Hot Rod can't be all bad 😂
I've seen many many people complaining about Whitney's Miltank, but I rarely to never saw anyone complaining about Morty's Gengar. Morty was the only gym leader in johto that gave me trouble, back when i was a kid. Hypnosis and dream eater (+curse from haunter)
"The unfortunately named Route 34"
Oh my god, I never got it until now...
One thing you didn't mention about Onix is that it has access to Screech, which you can use to half, third or quarter Miltanks defence depending on what happens. You can then bring in physical attackers and deal much more damage to counter milk drink; and Machop can wipe the floor. This is still partially up to luck, but it's probably one of the easiest strategies.
I don't recall Whitney giving me a hard time; therefore, I don't exactly recall how I beat her. By the time I played Gold version, I was familiar enough with type weaknesses. So, I likely came across the Machop trade and thought it would be useful. It's possible I had a rock type on me and at least one other Pokémon that was female. I don't think I had a Ghastly. I also may have possessed the strategy guide for Crystal at the point but I can't say for certain. If I didn't beat her the first time, it only took a few tries. Not enough to frustrate me or induce rage.
The fun thing is that Miltank was Level 18 in the beta version. So game designers actually thought it was not challenging enough and pushed it to Level 20.
Just discovered your channel. The video was very interesting and the Ghost Trick OST and sound effects (alongside Xenoblade meme) were the cherry on the top. Keep up with the good work!
I love how Whitney is difficult mostly because your options are limited for how to approach her, like if she was later in the game she totally would be a cake walk since you'd have a strong enough mon that is around Miltank's BST and thus on it's level and it wouldn't be as much of an issue, Miltank still obviously would be (decently fast mon with a way to heal itself is always bit annoying in games)
Like I know if you had something like a Gastly, Machop, Geodude, or Onix you'd be mostly fine but.. Gastly? Rollout still hits so Stomp isn't needed.. also Attract could still be an issue, Machop? Still could be Stomp flinched even if you have the female traded one.. and Rollout is still a decent move if let build up.. so really the females of the two rock mons are best options.. but they still getting outsped and even if it isn't effective.. you still can get flinched, which is still annoying...
And.. as you said.. lots of people may not have even picked up one of the counters to Miltank.. like personally it took a bit before I even used a few of the common cave mons because I was just.. annoyed by them
Another thing GF did in a different game to alter difficulty is in BW with the Striaton gym.. before then none of your obtainable options (except gift monkey) have an advantage against any of the starter types literally the very first route right after gym 1 you gain access to Pidove and Woobat, Flying type to cover Grass, Blitzle, Electric type to cover Water, and Drillbur, Ground type to cover Fire.. but they limit you before that to either force you to find the gift monkey to learn "yo variety" or just leveling up enough to off set maybe or just making you level up something other than your starter so you aren't weak to the gym leader's monkeys
I like how you used the ghost trick soundtrack and sound effects, really brings me back
love your content and your input from a game designer perspective :) very refreshing takes and style of presentation. keep going!
Modern pokemon games need more stuff like this. It forced me to think outside the box and use somthing then my starter and the first pidgey i caught.
The internet wasn't really a thing back then. Now-a-days kids would just do an internet serach, get the answer, and continue on...
I'd love a 18 part series on the game design philosophy of each pokemon type.
Also would love vids on gimmick pokemon like ditto, smeagle, shedninja, ect ect
Oh man, I haven't thought about this in years! Nice nostolgia trip. Friends trading tips all day about how to fight this Miltank.
Pretty sure when I played through Heart Gold, I got Heracross from a honey tree before this gym so it wasn’t an issue. Realizing now how fortunate that was
no honey trees on HGSS, you may be talking about headbutt tree tho
Heracross is one of my favorite Pokémon of all time because of Soul Silver. It was a great Whitney check and it was useful throughout the entirety of the game.
The problem about Geodude is that he doesn’t have reliable ways to hit Miltank. You got magnitude, which a gambling, and 90% accurate Rock Throw. So you will be doing very little while risking a crit. If it’s male, you are screwed. The only thing gastly can do is curse and faint, if it survives a rollout with its poor defenses. Miltank is a problem because even Pokémon that are good answers are still at risk if you get a little bad luck…
People play rpg's without exploring and learning its mechanics. As a result, miltank looks more powerful than it really is.
Something similar happens with cynthia, players go unprepared and get smashed by her (she may be a good topic for a video).
Literally never had trouble with either 😂 And until Gen 5 I basically soloed games with my starter
I honestly had issues with both the first time I played each game. One part was my playthroughs being blind so I had no idea where everything was or what was coming up.
I started at a very young age in Gen 1, and for my first run against Falkner, I honestly got lucky and defeated him without seeing mudslap be annoying as hell. I also had a save every resource mentality because of many other RPGs I had played. I didn't go to the optional areas for progression and was not able to play at night so I missed Gasley entirely, never heard of Heracross during that run, and only met Geodude when I was one shoting it with my totadile. Only learned about the trade machop years after this run. Whitney sucked to fight because of that. I didn't know the type chart back then, and the only mon I happened across with status was zubat and oddish, which both had negative opinions already established with me back then. It honestly was a slog that at the time that still haunts me.
Keep in mind most people played it as kids too, adding to not exploring other moves
Giving me whiplash with the Ghost Trick music and sfx lol.
You have great taste
This channel is cool as hell and it helps me really appreciate games as a whole much more like
I genuinely didn't understand how vast the thought behind every detail in a game can be
The heavy's "moo" had me smiling the whole video xD
This channel is amazing! Its nice to see youtube reccomend new interesting channels to me
Love the use of Ghost Trick sfx and Ace Attorney music! Kinda offtopic, but everything else has already been said, I think. Fantastic vid!
Glad to have found your content early sheesh that quality editing!! Keep dropping vids man youre appreciated!
12:45 I also remember playing the early Pokemon games and feeling this way, namely Gen I. The designers treated pokemon more like weapons and armor from a final fantasy game. A pokemon like Mewtwo or Dragonite being the equivalent of Excalibur. The idea of people competing was clearly an afterthought which showed even more in Pokemon Stadium I and you can see the limited mechanices working in a competitive space.
Shoutouts to the Exeggcute with Leech Seed that was added to the list of Headbutt tree encounters near Goldenrod exclusively in the remakes, adding another option that players can use to stall out a win in this battle.
To those that complained about Whitney and now wonder why Pokemon games are so easy: You are the reason.
This video is absolutely incredible. Thank you for making and sharing this!
Having started with chikorita the first time I played Crystal, I got the trade onix to beat Fakner and I got the trade machop later just because I wanted to use it (I had not gone to the gym at the time). So I was very surprised and confused seeing people online talking about how hard this fight was at the time hahaha! To be fair I knew about type match-ups by the time I fought miltank, having learned it by played Ruby before that and done the whole "playing the entire game with only your starter" thing (I didn't learn to switch my team's order until after gym 5 because I didn't know english when I was younger)
Honestly, there was always something I really liked about the design of this fight- they give you a *lot* of ways to cheese it. From the obvious ones like Heracross or the trade Machop, to immobilizing it back with a Flaafy or Zubat
In one playthrough of mine, I actually caught a Ditto just outside Goldenrod, stole the OP cow and destroyed it using itself. There's a surprising amount of ways to navigate the fight if you're willing to mess with your team, and I like that fact
Edit: before I get any "erm actually this is only a thing in this game, not this one", I'm kinda talking about both the main games and the remakes here
My friend, your videos are awesome! Great perspective, loved this one also
Another reason why people didn't use the existing counters is, especially for your first playthrough of a new game/region/dex you want to use the new pokemon rather than a geodude, all the counters are from kanto
I only wanted to add the Whitney episodes of the Anime were the last done by Takeshi Shudo the Showrunner of TOS He no longer agreed with the direction of the show after the gs ball plot being sabotarged by the movie and constantly being told no to his ideas. But he also was on drugs and whiskey all the time.
Also slowpoke has high def growl, curse and can learn headbut
Your content and style of content creation is inspiring. Thank you
Nice video, but I got to a different conclusion before you got to the two points...Miltank WAS designed to be difficult!
The variety of things that you can do in goldenrod and its side areas is way bigger than any other area before it, and maybe they made the gym harder so impatient players wouldn't just destroy the gym and go forward without exploring all that is to see between the department store, underground, bike shop, radio tower, game corner, daycare and national park. They even want you to see that the road will lead you straight back to the weird tree (sudowoodo) before you defeat Whitney so you know to look for a way to remove it after the battle.
Anyway, miltank is a cool boss pokemon that destroyed me and my brother when we're kids, and I wish pokemon had more bosses that pose a threat nowadays, although maybe having 25 years of pokemon knowledge is what makes the games easier for me now...
Great breakdown
I'd love to see the in game counters for each of the other gyms as well
15:44 Minor correction, Geodude resists the Rock-type Rollout not because of its own Rock-typing, but because of its secondary Ground-type.
I can attest to Geodude being a good counter, though. In addition to its bulk, the player also gets access to the Fighting-type Rock Smash by this point, which Geodude can learn and take good advantage of thanks to its above-average Attack (moreso in the remakes where it has 40 power instead of 20). Most of the times I've played SoulSilver, I've caught a Geodude specifically for this purpose, even if I didn't plan on using it for the full game.
And honestly, I feel like the idea of "temporary party members" in Pokémon might be another topic worth discussing! Especially since you seem to understand the early games being balanced like other RPGs, where temporary party members were a more common concept.
she literaly warned us before fighting saying she is good . lol
Worth mentioning: Dig tm to make rollout miss was in the park just past the gym. Furthermore, mudslap tm which you get from the first gym also helps with that.
However, since in gen 2, tms were one time use and many not re-obtainable, people were loathe to use them. And given mudslap's low base power, most people would not run it on their started...so whatever mon tried running it would be likely lower level and roll out food. Gasly had an atrocious time leveling up because lick is awful. And because of that and the levels, you were very likely roll-out food. Given the speed of miltank, you might say, 'oh, well, I'll just use curse!'. Remember in gen 2; If a cursed Pokémon defeats its opponent, it will not take curse damage on that turn. So if Miltank rollout starts ramping on the gastly, nothing will survive so curse damage won't be inflicted.
You mentioned Onix. Onix is not often used at this point in gen 2 because it is a traded pokemon and you need the 2nd gym badge to control mons up to lvl 30. Otherwise, they disobey after lvl 10. Therefore, Onix will not be part of most people's teams in gen 2. Even en route to Azalea, people trying to run Onix will find it disobedient because of the boosted xp rates traded mons had. This makes them LESS likely to use it from there as it is painful to fight and level with .
While geodude was a powerful answer, the wild pokemon in the area were not conductive to leveling it up quickly. Also, many people hated trade evos. With its low damage, it could not deal with milk drink. Think about the typical team a child had by that poin trying to come up with a balanced team. Starter + Bird (roll out food) + gastly (roll out food) + flaffy + maybe a bellsprout or a bug type + togepi/egg. Throw in maybe a magikarp you bought on the way or substitute a ratatatta or sentret
My own answer as a child was sand attack + smokescreen and pray for good RNG.
You can tell GameFreak liked Whitney's design because they didn't change her team or their movesets in the HG/SS remakes (but instead nerfed their levels). I think Clefairy is very underrated too, as though it's a very weak pokemon from a BST PoV, its Metronome makes it very risky to spend turns setting up on (which is another common gym leader strat).
Whitney is single handedly responsible for heracross being one of my favorite Pokémon
I think the main reason people struggled is that all of the counters to Whitney either take extra steps to take or are Kanto Pokemon. So most players avoided them either by choosing to catch the Johto Pokemon over the old ones, and easier to obtain ones, at that.
Headbutt is also given in Ilex Forest, which allows the player to try to ger a Heracross, who has a BST of 500.
The thing is: it's in no way foreshadowed by a hard Bug Catcher battle; it can't be found in Ilex Forest, so you'll have to backtrack to R33 to find it; it's a low encounter headbutt mon. Thus, in order to use the best Miltank counter (female Heracross), you have to really look for a hard to find Pokémon that you don't even know exists. At least they give us a Machop.
First of all, I love your video. This has extremely tight visual editing, especially for someone only recently beginning the hobby. I cannot wait to watch the rest of your channel, and have already subscribed. I have always been fascinated with artistic motivation across all media. And I find that "the artistic intentions behind the way certain things were implemented" to be an extremely interesting subject for a channel.
Secondly, it is definitely tauros's fault; fighting tauros was a nightmare in elementary school. I still loathe that old gen one sprite almost reflexively, because he is my schoolyard nemesis. You are right to blame him.
Game Design intent is something that tends to go underappreciated by most players. I understand that it isn't something which most players will typically think of, but seeing how the modern Pokemon community loves to badmouth Game Freak without thinking deeper always left a bad taste in my mouth.
The fact that so few people really stop to consider the games' designer intent is especially baffling when you consider how Pokemon is one of the world's biggest media franchises, and practically every other aspect has been explored (story, lore, competitive, etc).
It's a huge contrast from the Team Fortress 2 community, which is a game community with much fewer updates, yet has a fanbase that is OBSESSED with the game's design, down to the most minute of details.
There's just so much to talk about in Pokemon that goes unnoticed. It's just a shame, honestly. It feels like there's never enough time and videos to talk about everything. And that's even before I even need to think about other games.
Sometthing you lightly touched on that I thnk bares further emphasis is at this point Game Freak and its designers likely still didn't grasp the nuances of competitive pokemon. The battling aspect of pokemon was introduced based on nintendos suggestions and Game Freak while much better at balancing in their sequal games weren't out to make a perfectly balanced competitve game. One of the effects of that is how they see normal typpes, as you explored.
Another thing that comes to mind is I don't think as game designers at the time they understood just how attahced kids get to their pokemon teams. You may want the player to pick geodude because mechanically its really useful but little Ai finally gets to play as a girl in her fav rpg and really wants "cute" pokemon to be her team style. The diversity of potential team compositions as a form of player expression makes balancing harder than a traditional turn based rpg, because to the player the "best" option may be one that best expressed their personality rather than the most optimal.
Mudslap from Falkner is useful in this battle too. But when I was little I used my little trick of doing a little of the game, trading, restarting, and choosing a different starter until I had all 3. That makes the whole playthrough a walk in the park.
Honestly, Bugsy was rather hard as well. As pointed out, Scyther had 500 base stats at an even lower level and it had Fury Cutter which functioned like Roll-out except it had STAB and no damage reset. I remember being flumoxed that my Cindaquil/Quilava couldn't damage race the Scyther. I ended up using a strategy of getting a bunch of mons with Sand-Attack to nerf Scyther's Accuracy into the ground and then pulling out my starter to chip thru Scythers HP.
I do think Whitney was harder, but Bugsy wasn't a cake walk in my experience.
I hadn't considered how strong a counter Geodude was for the first 3 gyms before. Well, gyms 2-3. Falkner had Mud-Shot which was super effective against Rock types. I think part of the problem was many players had the mentality of "This is a new game. I want to play with the NEW Pokemon!" So they frequently ignored solid picks from the previous gen.
Loved the video! Enjoyed a lot the analysis from a game design point ^^
The "counters" also had a few unforeseen drawbacks. Gender, in gen 2 only, didn't have its own unique determining value and was instead determined by a Pokemon's attack stat DV (Determinant Value). DVs, which were later changed to IVs (Individual Values) are basically a Pokemon's genetics, the higher the value, the better the stat. For a Pokemon to be female, it needs to have a really low attack DV unless the species is 100% female or skewed in favor of female, which has the consequence of female physical attackers being noticeably weaker than their male counterparts and usually getting boxed. Additionally, all of miltank's counters were generation 1 Pokemon and when the games was first released most players wanted to use the new Pokemon instead.
Oh is that so? I remember the rumor at the time was that males had higher attack and females had higher defense
@@BJGvideos Males had higher attack, but females didn't have higher defense. Female physical attackers were always just objectively worse than their male counterparts. Elaborating on the mechanic some, DVs in gen 2 ranged from 0 to 15 with the higher the DV, the higher the actual stat you see on a Pokemon's status screen. Heracross has a 50/50 gender ratio, meaning they are equally likely to be male or female. For a heracross to be female, she needs to have an attack DV in the lower 50%, aka, between 0 and 7 and to be male, he'd need an attack DV in the upper 50%, meaning between 8 and 15. For starter, which are male 87.5% of the time and female 12.5% of the time, a female would need an attack DV in the lower 12.5%, which is either 0 or 1 while the males have attack DVs between 2 and 15. Even in mostly female species like Clefairy which have a 25/75 gender gender split, a female Clefairy can't have an attack DV higher than 12 and a male's can't be lower than 13. Only fully female species like Miltank can have a perfect attack DV while still being female.
@@FireFog44 Wild.
I blitzed through the first half of Emerald using a Azumarill with Rollout.
Whitney was what made me quit HeartGold and never pick it up again. Intentional design or not, I’ll never forgive it.
She's taking holy cow to a different level.
I honestly NEVER really struggled with Whitney. Sure she was difficult, but her Miltank was never overwhelming for me. I’ve heard here and there Bayleef actually has a pretty good matchup against Miltank probably because of Reflect and Synthesis; I also typically ran mostly female teams, which coincidentally works out for Miltank’s attract. On my Sacred Gold Romhack playthrough I even managed to beat her 3 on 6 using status, which really seems to be miltank’s bane I’m finding. Give it a burn or a paralysis or even sleep and that cow’s done for.
In Gold and Silver, Rollout's animation didn't really make it clear that it's a Rock type move that is Super Effective against some of the strongest Pokemon up to that point: Quilava, Pidgeotto, and Scyther. I got hard stuck on Bugsy as a kid with Chickorita to the point I reset and picked Cyndaquill. Don't remember having a really tough time with Whitney, but I probably had to take a couple of attempts as a kid.
She was the one who made me realise sand attack and mudslap are beneficial.
Kung Pao! Enter the Fist is one of my favorite movies. Excellent reference.
I generally dislike training up geodude - this is a learned behavior from gen 1: rock throw has terrible accuracy, so training geodude takes much more time than another mon, not to mention the bellsprouts that could vinewhip you into oblivion - AND because geodude was a trade evolution at a time when I had no access to someone to trade with... well, you can see why geodude wasn't necessarily a relevant option at the start of gen 2.
And Faulkner further disincentivizes you with mudslap.
Bugsy would always be a cake walk with the 'dude, that's for sure.
I have a female Scolipede in White 2 which was designed very similarly to Whitney's Miltank. Oh, boy. It was so fun using a Toxic, Venoshock, Rollout combo on Drayden and Team Plasma.
As someone who randomly decided to do a Grass types-only run of Pokémon Crystal using Level Caps rules recently, I want to give an honorable mention to Sunflora as a soft check to Miltank in Gen 2. You admitedly have to go way out of your way to get it, but winning a Sun Stone at the Bug-Catching Contest, then breeding 2 Sunkern to be able to evolve one before Level 10 would give it Razor Leaf. And at that point of the game, Sunflora's Razor Leaf is one of the strongest Special Attacks available to you, able to pretty comfortably 2-shot Miltank at Level 20. It DOES require Paralysis support for it to work if you wanna avoid Stomp Flinch-hell, though... but you know, in a mono-Grass team like I had, that wasn't exactly an issue. Otherwise, being fully-evolved and all, it's plenty bulky enough to tank one or two Stomps or Rollouts.
It's probably not worth your time since Sunflora becomes useless very quickly afterwards, but I thought I'd mention it.
(PS: I intended that playthrough to be a HC Nuzlocke, but that stupid Bird Keeper in Falkner's Gym with the Level 8 Spearow made me ragequit the idea)
There are 2 more reasons for normal's dominance in gen 1 ou. Normal type pokemon usually got more coverage moves than other types of pokemon, making them more versatile. Additionally, fighting type attacks were relatively weak, with the best being submission, an 80 power attack with 80% accuracy and recoil damage. This meant that normal barely had to worry about the fighting type weakness.
Not ethically questionable to share your expertise and help others learn. Thank you for your service.
You can never truly know the dev's intent when strict deadlines and murphy's law coexist!
It's also worth noting that a difficult boss fight would discourage younger players from thoughtlessly running headfirst into every gym over and over, and encourage them to explore all the OPTIONAL content in and around Goldenrod. (You know, instead of an NPC in the newer games pulling you along on a lead like an animal.)
What do you think about Norman in R/S? I remember being totally unable to get past him as a kid I just gave up playing Sapphire. As an adult he’s easy as you can protect strat around Slaking but as a kid I could not figure out how to get past him.
You can get Sableye as a ghost type to counter Norman, and fighting types too. Protect, Dig, perhaps Fly if it was available... Perhaps abilities were what was showcased then?
@@EmiliaHoarfrost yeah, he’s easy now as an adult but I just remember as a kid using your favourite Pokémon and just trying to out damage him never worked. Say as Whitney, fine if you know what counters to use and where to get them but you can’t just use your favourites and try to overpower her.
8:20 Small correction, Rollout doesn't lock you into using it. You can stop using rollout at any time, it just builds power the more you use it sequentially.
I think in later generations it does.
I really like the difficulty Whitney's Miltank brings, since if you do rush to the gym, you're likely going to get stomped by it and try to find a different solution. This forces you to explore Goldenrod, which is by far the largest city the player has seen at this point. The routes after Goldenrod as well as the National Park are also much larger than areas past the previous two gyms you could reach before you beat them, giving you even more trainers to fight.
With all this extra exploring, you're likely to find things like the Bug Catching Contest, the Bike, the Hair Salon, the Game Corner, and the extra items Goldenrod's Mart sells. If you could just blow through the Gym, you'd be much more likely to just continue on to the next town without ever seeing any of this.
I think to add to this, a lot of the mechanics and stuff are hidden in Pokemon, with people nowadays referring to the Internet for Pokemon info. Other games would give the player this information (stats, type advantage, move pools) readily. So, a lot of kids would get to the miltank being happy with their cute team of friends, and this cute team of friends might not include the 4 available counters. It was also probably led by the chosen starter since rolling the whole game with your starter is a viable strategy most of the time. Grinding up the 5 trashmons takes ages and isn't worth it if they're gonna get replaced.
I live your videos! Good to see more sensible and critical analysis on the games as opposed to "muh too easy" or "muh too hard"
Thank you for your Videos. It's such a great refreshing view on these Games from a Developer's POV.
I really LOVE your Videos and I just started to view the World (of Pokémon) from a new angle.
Like, Grass was the BEST Starter in Gen. 1 (No Poison & Advantage over Gym 1 + 2) so it's been the WORST in Gen. 2 (Grass-Sudo-Gym, Flying-Gym, Poison-Sudo-Gym, Bug-Gym, Bug/Poison/Flying-Forest, Whitney). My guess is to encourage different Types. (Fire steamrolls most of the Early-Game and is demolished by Whitney's 2x effective Rock-Rollout.)
And for balancing out, Water is the BEST option in Gen. 3 (R/S) as it's the only Pokémon with a Ground-Type & -Move before Gym 3.
It's so fascinating to look at things from this new angle. Especially viewing Gym-Aces as "Boss-Fights" with Pokémon designed for this role on purpose.
Thank you so much for your Videos. Instant Sub and I'm thrilled to see more of this Stuff
Great breakdown and analysis
I never remembered having trouble with Whitney's Miltank and I could never remember why until I saw this video: I must have been one of the few kids with the curiosity to sidetrack and get that Machop plus I remembered also picking up Rocky the Onix and using him fondly thanks to how I was still a big fan of the anime at the time. I also went ahead and grabbed a Gastly, which must have been female because despite being reminded of Attract shenanigans on my Quilava and Rocky I don't remember that on Muscle and the Gastly.
I always thought of myself as a dumbass kid but I guess obliviousness can always be countered by thorough curiosity!
Expected another video like Christmas Morning
Hey there fellow Singaporean! Nice to see a countryman share a common childhood game! I actually have a suggestion, why do pokemon game „seem“ to get easier? I rmbr plying sun and moon and found totem pokemon to be quite strong, but aside from that i do also feel the same way too
Being one of the few people to pick a Chikorita the first time in Gold ended up making this fight not all that tough my first time through because of Bayleef's bulk. Back then I only would use my starter and anything else on my team was just along for the ride, so I was atrociously overleveled from just banging my head against all the counters Chikorita had going for it thanks to its growing bulk. It had already evolved into Bayleef before even getting to the Pokemon Center before Union Cave for the first time, and while Bugsy and the second Rival battle were a challenge still, having gotten through all of that effectively made Whitney's gym a joke. By that point Bayleef was already far too bulky for Miltank to do much to it even with Attract.
I feel so attacked rn bro, this pops up RIGHT after I just spent hours drawing my Sandshrew's story arc up to getting MURKED by Miltank 😭 First Nuzlocke too I really got attached to Spidereter.
The humor and knowledge is the video is the perfect mix imo. This is Hilarious
Hey! Nice a new video, you have a knack for these ! Well done
I remember Whitney's Miltank hitting hard as a kid, but I beat her thanks to Mud Slap (TM obtained by Falkner). It worked as a decent counter since it caused rollout to miss more often.