Game Designer Explains: The Psychology behind Cynthia's Reputation and Difficulty
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- Cynthia is widely regarded as one of Pokémon's most fearsome and terrifying Champions. But have you ever considered how and why she ended up getting such a reputation? It wasn't an accident, that's for sure! The game's designers put in a good deal of effort to intentionally cultivate that reputation among players. So here's a deep dive into how exactly they accomplished that.
Channel Discord: / discord
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Chapter Timestamps
0:00 - Opening Gag
0:43 - Introduction
2:30 - Setting Initial Expectations
8:01 - The Serial Position Effect
10:45 - Spritomb, the First
13:13 - Cynthia's Team, and the Impression they Create
18:02 - Garchomp, the Last
22:09 - Reinforcement via Piano
24:06 - Reinforcement across Multiple Games
25:02 - The Long-Term Impacts of Cynthia's Reputation on Players and Developers
28:43 - Conclusion and Recap
30:34 - Outro
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Music Timestamps:
0:43 - Lith Harbor, Above the Treetops [Maplestory]
2:32 - Fate Changed [Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective]
8:07 - Machinations and Deduction [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]
13:30 - Summation Examination [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles]
18:02 - Champion Cynthia Battle [Pokemon Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl]
20:54 - Primal Dialga's Fight to the Finish! [Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky]
22:21 - Champion Cynthia's Theme [Pokemon Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl]
24:08 - Henesys, Floral Life [Maplestory]
24:13 - Champion Cynthia's Theme [Pokemon Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl]
25:48 - Il Vento D'oro [Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Part 5: Vento Aureo]
30:19 - Volo Battle [Pokemon Legends Arceus]
30:34 - 221B Baker Street [The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles] 
Игры
I originally wanted to complete this by Halloween. It is WAY behind schedule. Goes to show - one should never underestimate Cynthia, even when making a video about her.
I should write shorter scripts....
What I liked about the DS Era is that The Ace isn’t restricted to the back nor has scripted attacks thereby making her decisions more dynamic
Anyway, happy Halloween and Day of the Dead! Better late than never!
You are wrong. Cynthia should be as strong as possible. People should cry trying to beat her. We do not need weakling champions like gita just to allow people to beat the game.
Thanks for the timestamp, now l can skip it.
loved the video! One small error though, there IS a hint as to how to get Spiritomb. The guy who gives you the odd keystone talks about talking to people underground after he gives you the stone if you talk to him again. Now it's not a great hint I agree, not to mention not everyone had friends to play with, but it is technically a hint that people could have interpreted without the internet
Here's an explanation for Gastrodon. It's a West Sea Gastrodon which has to be caught as a weak Shellos. East Sea Gastrodon can be caught at higher levels and fully evolved but instead of catching the stronger Gastrodon to save her some time (which is what Paul did in the anime) Cynthia chose the weaker Shellos and raised it to Level 60 without taking a shortcut. Her friendship evolutions make her kindness obvious but West Sea Gastrodon is a more subtle hint that she cares and is willing to train the hard way instead of expecting her Pokemon to be powerful from the start.
As an outsider that didn't play much Pokemon (Just FireRed and Pearl, never really finishing either) it sounds to me like Cynthia is essentially what every Pokemon trainer should strive to be while also being one of the nicest, most caring characters in the franchise. And being a casual badass where most others are total tryhards that utterly fail to deliver the impact they're going for.
@@bluesbest1 Cynthia's effortless charisma being contrasted with more try-hard trainers like Lance or Leon reminds me of the difference between Jenna Coleman's Clara Oswald and Peter Capaldi's Doctor. Clara's easygoing, sweet natured and loves teaching but has an exceptionally strong will, a manipulative streak with controlling tendencies, and an agile mind which shows huge intelligence and inner strength. She adapts to situations quickly and sometimes even makes the Doctor look stupid without ever talking down to him. She'll occasionally smack him when he deserves it - for example, his arrogant dismissal of the idea that Rusty could be a good Dalek would be deeply offensive if Clara remembers being Oswin - but isn't condescending towards him. Clara also makes her control freak tendencies, which are normally seen as a negative thing, look like a source of strength, most notably when she was resisting Dalek mind control and fighting back against Bonnie while the Zygon was sauntering around in her body.
That's similar to how Cynthia casually saunters around the Pokemon world whilst always being ready to lay the smack down on anybody who crosses her and teach them a lesson in the process. Like Clara, Cynthia's got the mindset of both an adventurer and a teacher and is always eager to see and learn new things that she can pass onto others. She also doesn't take her celebrity status seriously unless she's using it to make a point. For example, she ignored her admirers in Top Down Training until Paul approached her and when she was battling him, Cynthia chose to use Giga Impact instead of Dragon Rush against his Murkrow despite being fully aware (and annoyed that Paul felt the need to tell her) that Giga Impact would leave Garchomp open to a counterattack. Cynthia gave Paul that opening on purpose just to see what he would do with it, then Garchomp clobbered his Torterra with a single Brick Break (which was her weakest attack at the time) in order to teach him a lesson.
Cynthia's easygoing demeanour is actually more intimidating once you realise how powerful she is. One thing that differentiates her from Clara though is that she never gets overconfident, despite having every reason to be. Also Cynthia's self control isn't confirmed to have anything to do with being a control freak.
Meanwhile, Peter Capaldi's Doctor tries to come across as strong, mysterious and intimidating but ends up looking like an insecure teenager who suffers from an anti-social personality disorder. His Doctor is the most try-hardish in New Who whereas John Hurt (RIP), Christopher Ecclestone, David Tennant and Matt Smith all have an effortless leading man presence.
I just like how East Sea Gastrodon looks.
While your theory is good, it does have one flaw. Cynthia didn't necessarily have to catch a weak Shellos. West Sea Gastrodon can be caught on Route 218, just outside Canalave City (a place Cynthia knows exists since she directs the player towards the Canalave Library), so she could have caught hers as an already evolved Lvl 28-30 Gastrodon rather than a Level 8 or 9 Shellos.
Her Roserade, however, supports your theory that she likes training the hard way rather than taking shortcuts more than Gastrodon does since the Roserade has the Egg Move, Extrasensory. This means that first she had to find a male Nuzleaf of Shiftry, neither of which are native to the Sinnoh Region, then breed it with a female Roselia and to cap it off she had to train up the resulting Budew all the way from Level 1, evolving it via friendship on the way. This requires more effort than training a Gastrodon.
I always thought it was because Gastrodon is important to Sinnoh's in-game mythology. The two forms of Shellos/Gastrodon allegedly represent the two sides of Sinnoh created by Mount Coronet that have existed since the world's creation, and as such it's rumored that Shellos and Gastrodon are as old as Sinnoh itself. Cynthia loving mythology as much as she does would probably LOVE Gastrodon in this light so it makes sense that she has one, even if it is somewhat the weak link of her original team.
She may have replaced it with the more iconic Togekiss, which in itself still fits her, but I still like to imagine that Gastrodon is her one teammate that, while benched after completing her full team, is still very doted on.
Imagine if, when the BW2 remakes come out, the devs intentionally move the house she is in to the one next door, so that when players intentionally avoid going to the house in which she appeared in the original games, they'll find a neat little surprise waiting for them in the one next door, which no-one remembers, but now they will.
That'd be evil, but also extremely funny and memorable
That is brilliant!
Nah, When you enter the house you will find it empty. As you sigh a breathe of relief and try to leave, she comes from outside says that there is a cute intruder in her residence and proceeds to rail both you and your pokemon so fuckin hard you will be fighting E4 on a wheelchair
@@keiken8263The dread I felt building up while reading that was not the good kind lmao
Ah, someone else who sees its better for the region to remake the sequels. That or just go all out with BW3
@@keiken8263she proceeds to rail me? 😳
One thing modern players don't realise when they research Cynthia's team is that they inevitably end up building a team to exclusively counter her. Yeah, it may trivialise her battle, but she's still so powerful she bends you to her will.
Wait till they meet her fucking psychopath of an ancestor.
*That Guy* is the *REASON* I always strive to have everyone on my team at Level 100 these days.
Okay, I love that. Thank you for giving me that brain thought of yours.
I didn't. I had an all-rounder team and was simply higher level than her, as I am in literally all pokemon games, so type advantages and sheer stat difference were sufficient.
@@zibbitybibbitybop Try telling that to Volo.
thats an option for casual players but for example people who nuzlocke or simply dont want to overlevel to at least get a bit of difficulty into the game dont have that luxury (cuz lets face it overleveling makes the game easy) @@zibbitybibbitybop
I’m so glad we as fans can come together and remind ourselves that we share the trauma of getting folded by Cynthia
Cynthia wasn't that bad if you had a variety of team with a lot of experinece. Saturn with the Purugly, was a lot harder when your team was still relatively unevolved, and you were training them all from scratch.
In Black and white I beat Cynthia easily. As teams that can fight Ghetsis are pretty much clear counters to Cynthia. Just that the post game areas are badly balanced in Gen 5.
I never fought cynthia until bdsp, so i was well aware of the rep. And she was STILL a beast. Deserves the rep. I was just playing to ribbon master, so i brought a lv100 comp level persian. She slapped it silly!
I went into BDSP with my team built to fight Cynthia, still got beat so badly by that garchomp.
@@toxicmale2264 "Cynthia wasn't that bad if you had prior experience playing the game" isn't really the argument you think it is lol. Of course she isn't going to be that hard for an experienced player or a person who has already played the game. That isn't the point anyone is making. Assuming one plays with level caps(I personally have since I was in middle school), you get out-sped and swept by her garchomp unless you EV train. Why? Because all of her mons have near-perfects Iv's and EVs.
I love that cynthia's reputation serves to immediately skyrocket everyone's anxiety when the volo fight starts. I read a comment once that said the turo/sada fight in scarlet/violet was so scary because we had no idea what was coming. volo's fight became scary because we immediately DID realize what was coming
The best part about this for me is that it arguably leads to a feedback loop of reinforcement. When Volo ends up living up to the expectations the piano implies, players are then even MORE traumatized by that ominous melody! lol
I remember beating vuolo with almost all my team wiped and suddenly giratina appeared. It was a scary moment for sure 😂
I love that during the post-game everyone thought they understood Volo's character, we all knew he was going to be a twist villain, but no one expected the piano, the Cynthia team or the 8 pokemon! It's just plot twist after plot twist, I love it
@@lacuevadelosrpg4070that was BS on my first time fighting him
Volo never terrified me, even though it was quite a hard fight. This is because his hair was stupid. If I were Arceus, I'd feel absolutely embarrassed.
There is something to be said about Cynthia's demeanor, especially on Spear Pillar and in the Distortion World. Her job is to serve as the final benchmark for Sinnoh's young trainers, and she would be negligent in her duties if she hi-jacked the efforts of a promising challenger handling a crisis. However, you know without a doubt she could fold Cyrus in half, even without fighting her. She's angry at his treatment of the legendaries and nonplussed at his motivations, but not concerned he'll get away with it. Because if you can't handle this, she will.
I never thought of it that way, damn makes me love her even more.
I remember the implication that Palmer is even stronger than Cynthia as well, only he doesn't even bother to get involved. Cynthia on the other hand, remember that Generations animation? She was ready to fist fight Giratina if he had to (though I question if it would have done any good)
TL;DR Cynthia uses the underage protagonist as a strategic meat shield to weaken her opponent before battle thus increasing her odds of victory over Cyrus even further. Brilliant 🧐
@SerDerpish so she's a genius😂. Child labour is the pinnacle of intelligence.
It's very telling that as the video pointed out, Garchomp can 1v1 the box legendaries and win almost if not every time, ergo, she could beat Cyrus even if he had them no problem. So yeah you're right, she knows she can beat his ass if she had to 😅
The other thing is that Cynthia’s AI often decides to go into Garchomp immediately after Spiritomb. This fills several great roles:
1. Betrayal of expectations. Those who expected to be able to chill for the next few mons are suddenly shoved a giant dragon in their face when they expected a weaker one. Especially if you’re playing on Set.
2. If this Garchomp catches you off guard and beats you, it makes ITSELF into the recency bias “final thing” despite being only her second pokemon. You get one-two punched with a memorable opener and an insane enemy to sweep you, putting both primacy and recency into full force with nothing weak inbetween. And even if you beat it, usually her last Pokémon is Togekiss, which is still a terror to deal with with her high speed, coverage, and flinch spam with Air Slash. An already memorable fight getting even more brutal based on how she feels like messing with you.
It also plays on the fact that the Cynthia fight is best combatted with a strategy involving setting up against spiritomb and sweeping most of the team, with a special counter for garchomp. Instead, your set up sweeper gets bitch slapped and now your whole plan is off even if you get rid of garchomp. At the very least, you're on the back foot
If that Togekiss had Serene Grace before rematches, I shudder to think what the players in 2007 would've thought about it.
A small thing about Cynthia's team is that it has a lot of shock factor that comes along with it. Her entire team consists of Pokemon that are either really strong, or have never been seen before which makes it easy for the player to be put in positions where they don't even know what to do.
me experimenting to understand what type spiritomb is weak to lmao
Spiritomb being hear lead was a stroke of masterpiece. It looks so menacing, completely unknown and as a kid, you'd have absolutely no clue wtf to do against that.
I think the only slightly goofy pick might be Gastrodon, but even the (not so) little snail can be quite the tanky menace, considering the only weakness it has is grass. Not a type many would take with them. (Well.. i'm saying that, but this is the generation with Roserade and everybody and their Grandmother probably used one)
@@Aurirang gastrodon's storm drain might mess with people, too. "Oh, it's ground type, water will hit for neutral"
no. no, it won't. fucked me up 'cause I was playing blind-ish.
@@Aurirang but even then, if you didn't one-shot it with your roserade, it's gastrodon has fking earthquake, and will decimate your roserade
8:12 "try to recall Cynthia's team blindly from memory" i recalled eight of her Pokémon, this is sad but it also proves the point that her team is just so memorable
Garchomp (her ace, obviously)
Spiritomb (her team lead)
Milotic (she's beautiful and put in the work to get there)
Roserade (this rose has thorns)
Lucario (she sees beyond the ordinary)
Togekiss (vibe check)
@@a-s-greigGastrodon (for some reason)
@@paulista_rodrigues Eelektross, Braviary, Glaceon and Kommo-O
Eight Pokemon! I thought that even if you combined her Diamond/Pearl and Platinum teams you only get 7.
Garchomp, Spiritomb, Gastrodon, Milotic, Lucario, Roserade and Togekiss.
Who is the 8th one?
@@michaelrobinson2687 I didn't remember roserade, but I remembered electross and glaceon from BW
What's scary for me is the rare early Garchomp switch-in. I wasn't ready for it, and having to accommodate a sudden Garchomp mid battle crippled my team. Basically gave the Lucario a free sweep.
Garchomp switching in "before I'm ready" can grind up my entire team, leaving no backups if the classic ice/dragon/fairy options get knocked out with a crit or something and need a revive
@@hash8169 That's why you stock up on healing items, my friend.
Pfft...Her Milotic is the most dangerous member of her team. Lucario and Garchomp are tough, but that's partly because Milotic wears you down with her insane defense.
@@smashmaster521
I hate that Milotic.
Playing Brilliant Diamond, Milotic and Garchomp were straight from horror.
My favorite part about her being in the Unova games like that is the time there was a pokemon door randomizer that linked the entrance to a very early game building into cynthia’s house. So he basically got his level 5 starter and then was immediately teleported to the hardest fight in the game
Can't you just refuse her fight then?
@@alzhanvoidsansadoyes you can. Most people are too scared to not do it. Gen 4 PTSD.
Do you remember what video that was from?
Kid: I want to play pokemon
Game: sends you to Cynthia's house
*then play*
something I feel like very few people talk about is how cynthia usually relies on mostly special attacks. Even lucario, a usually physical Pokémon, is rocking a mixed set. So if you have a mostly specially bulky team to counter this, you then get curbstomped by her only physically based option: garchomp. I just think it’s a neat thing not brought up much
24:55 Lucahjin had this in reverse. She played Black and White before Platinum. So she gained PTSD from Cynthia's "dish Pokemon" (Spiritomb) that made her afraid every time Cynthia walked on screen in Platinum. Which is funny because Cynthia is the nicest lady in that game.
LUCAH MENTIONED
Haha, I remember this!
This was super funny in her LP
Is there a link to the video/series in question?
@@TrinityCore60 ruclips.net/p/PLRAcwizMKyhqQ5IzbxF-73Mm6cGZPjcZw&si=lDAOklHzecDpRslR
Spiritomb really shows how much Geeta's Glimmora failed in comparison. It's an extremely rare Pokemon you almost certainly never knew beforehand, and it's related to Cynthia's interests (being an ancient Pokemon charged with myths and history. Honestly, baring all the Legendaries, it's the second best thing. Well, that and Lucario, but she has it too).
Also, it's extremely durable, especially before Gen 6 when it has literally no weaknesses, while Glimora dies immediately (and you don't even have to guess its type due to Tera).
It's truly amazing how a similar idea can get it all right the first time around, and completely messed up here (thankfully, the final battle of SV gets it right, once more.)
The virgin Geeta vs. The chad Cynthia
Geeta isn't made to be hard, she's not really the champion. Nemona is the champion of the game. Basically geeta is like a miniboss, if you notice every pokemon she has reppresents one part of the region and glimmora reppresents zone zero, she's wrapping up the exploration of the region.
Oh yeah, I also thought about that with Glimmora and how easily they could have done something similar with said Pokemon to make the battle more memorable, but nope, they made it as lame as possible.
@@daruthebeast nemona is pathetic as well
I’m 99% sure it was meant to be her first pokemon and they switched it to make the fight easier or because “the ace has to go last”
Gastrodon was a Pokémon I feared a lot in Cynthias team.
Every time I encountered one in the wild prior to the league, I noticed it was a nightmare to kill for its massive defense and hp pool.
Cynthia pulling out a Gastrodon after most of my team had been defeated by her previous pokémons felt like seeing a steep street ahead of you when going on a marathon...
Same here!
I think at this point, the only way to make Cynthia even scarier is to have a few team sets that are randomly selected each time you battle her… so it’s impossible to plan your team against her
Have her teams randomize between her teams in Diamond/Pearl, Platinum, BW, and SM, maybe add in another. Cuz you can have something like a Magikarp show up if she has a truly randomized team. Or a pelliper, if you limit to fully evolved pokemon.
@@stevenrasche3159 I think the idea is that they give her, say, 6 different teams, and you don't know which one she's using until you fight her.
@@snakeman830 that'd work, too!
AFAIK Renegade Platinum does this already. It's as genius and as hellish as it sounds
This is what a lot of fan games do to make the elite 4 more dangerous. Instead of dealing with a gauntlet of 5 teams, it's 10 potential teams that you have to plan around
I think an important part of cynthia's difficulty that wasn't mentioned is that at the time, she was pretty much the very first story trainer with an actually really solid team. Gen 1 to 3 bosses generally have teams with underwhelming movesets. I believe that in the grand scheme of the franchise, she isn't that special, she was just the blueprint of how to make a good story team.
In the Core-Series Cynthia is unfortunately still very special, especially due to BW + BDSP and cause modern Champs like Leon and Geeta just suck, but there are indeed stronger + more difficult trainers in the Spin-Offs.
@@gunchar06 I think Leon has a good champion team, don't compare him to miss My team is so awfully built you can't even beat the game with it.
@@morphstarchangeling8024 This. Leon's team at least has levels and decent coverage. Alder's team couldn't handle Fire types in general to memory, having absolutely no fire coverage outside his Buffolant's Earthquate/Stone Edge, and 4 of his pokemon were weak to fire, with his ace being still hit for normal damage and losing to flying attacks.
Iris lost to basically any water type that bothered to learn Ice Beam. She had counters to Ice, but not enough counters to water types.
Diantha's team is pretty weak to Ice, Dark, or Fighting, or even Fairy, and she lacks the coverage to deal with Fighting or Fairy types well.
Leon's team was notable in that his entire team had coverage options for their weaknesses, and it was more or less built around killing the types that would give his Charizard trouble, and Charizard himself having Ancient Power and Solar beam to handle his own coverage. There wasn't a super solid "If I bring pokemon of this type i'll be good" answer. He had a decent team. Not a perfect one, but a decent one, and that's more than enough to put him above most champions.
@@gunchar06 I don’t think it’s fair to judge Geeta by the same standard when she’s not designed as a final boss. Nemona or the AI Profs are.
@@morphstarchangeling8024 That Leon has in theory a good team(it anyways kinda just badly tried to emulate the composition and lacks the actual thought some people put into Cynthia's team back then in especially Platinum, but it has at least good coverage and some pretty strong Pokemon), makes it imo just even worse what a failure Leon is(they pretty much ruined that team with silly move-sets, a bad level-curve and more, Leon in general is anyways just horribly written and would require at least a Volo lvl fight to even remotely measure up to all the overhype the games and later even the anime annoyed the fans with, and i don't think there was ever a more lame + unfitting Charizard before).
Geeta is at least just bad, without much else to it.
Team roles and synergy really help too. Garchomp and Milotic cover eachothers weaknesses really well in particular.
Her choice of both Garchomp and Milotic, there's an artistic dualistic symmetry between her two dragons, beings which are sometimes prominently featured in cultural creation myths as responsible for creating the universe, aka the cosmic dragon. Given the themes of space, time, and creation already present in the plot, it seems THIS is one incredible example of her love of mythology. Duality is another common mythological theme, also present in her Garchomp's physical damage, contrasting with the rest of her team's special damage moves, another example of covering Garchomp's weaknesses with symmetric pairings
The Masters 8 Tournament had a cool moment from Cynthia's battle with Ash where Cynthia sends out Spritomb and Diantha says (something along the lines of) "She took control of the whole battlefield by sending out a Pokémon no one expected" which is a good reference to the games where your first time reaction is "What is that??"
Diantha probably has no idea what the hell a Spiritomb is.
My first game was pokemon black.Imgaine my surprise when for some reason,this random lady called cynthia pulls out spiritomb which for some reason is not affected by my psychic and fighting type attacks,utterly demolishing my team.Watching this really reminded me of my childhood ptsd and made me realise how insane her team is
8:20 Spiritomb leads, typically followed by Togekiss or Milotic in my experience. Then Roserade or Lucario. If she’s feeling spicy, fairly sure her AI is programmed to sic Garchomp on you early if it’ll give her an advantage.
Reason I remember every member of her team is because each and every one of them are strong and scary in their own rights as Pokémon.
Garchomp is actually programmed to be always last on the gen4 games.
But she's also programmed to "never" call a pokemon that cant hit you (because of immunities or 4x resistances and things like that). If you manage to kill all her options to counter a specific pokemon (PP Stalling or something like a Shedinja), this is the only command that actually beats Garchomp's last clause, causing her to pull Garchomp mid battle if that's the only one who can cause at least neutral damage.
@@albertonishiyama1980 Do you have a source for this? I've been playing Platinum recently and she almost always brings out her Garchomp second, leaving her Milotic to last. Never once when I have battled her has she left her Garchomp to last.
@@albertonishiyama1980If that's the case, then why did the Garchomp always come out AFTER I scraped up Spiritomb for me as a kid?
@@albertonishiyama1980 played platinum recently, garchomp was definitely sent out second, so this is patently false in the original gen 4. but in BDSP she definitely has garchomp programmed to go last because it's intended to mop up your team after everything else has run you ragged
I remember them, because I have over 2000 Hours in DPP 😭😂
Cynthia's pre-battle theme is called an Etude, a solo meant to show off skill with a specific instrument through complex composition. As the introduction, it ensures things go from zero to a hundred really quick. You're going in ready to see this kind woman who helped you repeatedly through your journey, and then that piano solo begins and, by being so dramatic and striking, it reminds you "Oh yeah, she's supposed to be one of the top trainers in the world, the best Sinnoh has to offer". It immediately tells you that you're not here to visit your friend, you're here for business. This display of skill is also sort of foreshadowing of what's to come, that Cynthia is going to oneshot your timespace god and rend your team asunder pokemon by pokemon. That thing she just did to that piano? She's about to do that with your face. This adds to trying again when you inevitably lose, because now you know exactly what's in store. Her actual battle theme is less notable but hits about as hard as it should be expected to.
What you said about having an unmatched, unmatchable reputation is mostly true, though I think she's in competition with Red, who shows up and wrecks shit in pretty much every media he's in, even side content. He's been a somewhat consistent superboss, was long-standing as having the highest level pokemon, and has his own icons. The odds that he's not using at least one pokemon you used on your original playthrough are near 0, and he's far and above the strongest in his first apperance as an opposing trainer. His theme is iconic, and would be way more iconic if it wasn't shared with Lance. It's basically THE Pokemon theme, and his overt silence builds up the fight in its own way. It's also very striking to look at your opponent and think "Oh shit, that's me". Your experience, the legend you built with Red, all of that is put on this character for an all-out fight that ends up feeling really special. We've never really had our previous characters acknowledged in the main series since, except for in B2/W2, and they didn't outright appear. I think those games had the opportunity to make something like that happen, especially if it was a double battle against your main character (using memory link) and N, but they wasted that opportunity. I think they tried to set up Wally to be a sort of Cynthia-esque character in ORAS, and while his theme was great and I like him a lot as a character, he just doesn't have the presence to compete with her or Red, even though his team gets pretty insane.
Can’t forget her appearances in the battle tree in sun/moon and the ultra sequels! And every single champion and gym leader is featured in the PWT side track in b2/w2
The thing is, both Red and Cynthia represent the same thing: what if the protagonist continued his Pokémon journey into his 30s?
Red by literally being the grown up version of the first game protagonist
Cynthia by being shown to have the characteristics we expect of the protagonist (both in the game and anime) via storytelling and hints given by her team composition (garchomp is her first Pokémon, west gastrodon needs to be leveled up all the way, three friendship evolutions, and spiritomb which is an extremely rare Pokémon and needs an extremely convoluted set of steps to obtain)
@@iafozzac Not only do we need a platinum remake (best served alongside remakes of Crystal and Emerald), we also need a game where you can play as Cynthia.
Plus I know she is a game character but we just going to ignore her design? Yellow and black? Long blonde hair? Drop dead gorgeous with a perfect Japanese and English voice actress? A top tier character in gaming history
That surreal thought of “what is a spiritomb?” has the same weight as when you take a test and get handed a question you have no previous recollection of ever going through
Her team is surprisingly well balanced and pretty much competitive. Spiritomb used to be a tanky menace alongside that Milotic, and Garchomp is a terror that if it sets up can sweep.
Also since I've started playing Ghost Trick I enjoy the rewind and music.
It is an excellent game. I do hope you enjoy it. One of the best experiences you can have in gaming
In diamond and pearl is actually well balanced. But Pokémon, platinum half of her pokemon is week to ice.
@@kylelundgren5133 Yeah, but Ice is basically the worst type, pretty much the only Ice types worth running in platinum were Weavile and Glaceon, which, while subjective, aren't really the coolest pokemon so I wouldn't really expect a kid playing the game for the first time to have them on their main team unless they were specifically planning to counter Cynthia.
Plus, her Togekiss and Garchomp both have moves that are super effective against ice, and Lucario is specifically really good against ice types being both fighting and steel. So when you couple that with their really solid lines I wouldn't exactly expect things to go much easier simply because you brought an Ice type.
But, also, most of the champions leading up to her were type specialists, so the fact that there is only one type that's strong against at most three of her pokemon is still really balanced in comparison.
@@jacobbissey9311 I'm more or less referring to ice coverage rather than the ice typing largely. Because I meant the opinion that the ice type and fire type though far kind of bad. But they worked better as coverage moves than actual types for pokemon at least in platinum.
@@kylelundgren5133 It's still a very balanced team to only have half of the team weak to the same type when a majority of the your peers are type specialists, and given her own coverage more than makes up for it, it's really not much of a criticism.
Two more factors in Cynthia's reputation are relative power and the endgame sweep. There's always a gap between the Elite Four and the Champion, but it's particularly HUGE in D/P/P. (Lucian was really right about Cynthia being far stronger than them!) If you were lucky enough to get a Garchomp of your own, you can probably solo Flint and Lucian with it, only for it to get out-sped and Rushed by Cynthia's Garchomp. I once used a severely under-leveled team against the League for a challenge, and managed to beat all four Elites without any of my team fainting or using any items, but just barely scraped by against Cynthia when my last Pokémon (out of six) got lucky dodging Dragon Rush.
It also matters a lot that her best Pokémon, saved for last, specifically emphasizes both attack and speed. So, if you've been having a pretty even match against her first five and have a worn down team, you can easily got into a situation where Garchomp comes out at the eleventh hour and finishes off your whole team, almost like Cynthia's been toying with you and finally decided to unleash her true power.
It's funny how two of the "everyone acepts" top4 use the exact same strategy.
While Leon abuses his region mechanic (having a lot of high damage / low accuracy moves on his charizard because during Dynamax he cant miss anyway and what not), and Steven uses a defensive team... Cynthia and Iris both goes for that reverse sweep with absolutelly no chill.
Garchomp taking out any underleved and damaged pokemons with sheer stats, while Haxorus has a Sash and always goes for Dragon Dance 1st turn.
It took me three tries to beat Cynthia. Her Milotic proved to be the biggest obstacle because of its Defense, so I had to grind up my team in the Grand Underground to stand a better chance. I even caught a Gabite and evolved it to Garchomp before swapping out my Machoke for it so I could fight fire with fire, and that Milotic proved itself more dangerous than anyone else on her team not named Lucario and Garchomp. In the end, it came down to my Torterra against her Garchomp when everyone else went down, and my tanky turtle managed to pull off the impossible and win the battle, earning a place as a Brilliant Sinnoh Champion alongside Staraptor, Floatzel, Luxray, Gardevoir, and Garchomp (with Machoke and Shiny Graveler being honorary Champions).
" There's always a gap between the Elite Four and the Champion, but it's particularly HUGE in D/P/P" There only a gap of 3 level between Lucian ace and her Garchomp. Which is the case for most of the Champion.
@@sheogorath6834I was talking about overall effectiveness in battle (taking into account species, type coverage, move pools, etcetera), not just raw levels. The Elite Four would still be significantly easier than Cynthia (though less so than in the actual games) if their teams had the same levels as hers.
@@sheogorath6834 However, there is always the fact that each of the Elite Four is a single type specialist while Cynthia has a much more balanced team to consider. For example, given a good fast Dark Type you could Curb Stomp a Psychic type specialist like Lucian (Might need a Fire Type to handle Bronzong but everything else could theoretically be swept aside) - A Houndoum (Fire/Dark type) could take on his entire team and win with the rest of your party being mere spectators for the most part. However, that strategy does not fly with Champion Cynthia due to her Pokemon rarely sharing common weaknesses.
One thing that's worth mentioning is that in the Sinnoh games, every trainer has at least one unique Pokémon you haven't encountered yet. So if your Pokedex isn't complete by the end of the game....That means you missed a battle somewhere.
It's a great incentive to battle every trainer you see at some point or another since you need Pokedex completion to get to the post-game areas. It also makes trainers more memorable on repeat playthroughs.
That one trainer off to side of the moo moo milk place with the pre-evo of chancey lmao
In one play through i missed the trainer with lumineon and had to scour across the entire game trying to find them. It really sucked because all the times id played gen 4 id never missed her so it took me about 2 hours of aimless running around sinnoh until i found her on victory road
@@DaedricGod Imagine my childhood frustration of missing Drifloon's entry on my first Diamond playthrough because I avoided Fantina's gym trainers including the one school kid who has it and having no idea that Drifloon appeared outside Valley Windworks on Fridays.
Minor detail you missed regarding Steven Stone: The thing that's meant to clue you in that he's a Steel specialist is that when you first meet him, he gives you the TM for Steel Wing and calls it his favorite move.
Steven Stone is one of the major reasons why you can't do the Linoone sweep in Ruby and Sapphire. Not only do you not have access to Substitute and other Emerald-exclusives, the boss has steel types.
Man that animation of Garchomp slamming away on the piano is hilarious.
Both parts of the Cynthia trauma rolled into silliness.
Go and check out the full video from Cola Bear. It's just as funny as that quick clip. ruclips.net/video/lty-2iLQy9c/видео.html
I always loved that Cynthia truly feels like a final boss. Her team isn't impossible to defeat by any means, but it requires you to think about the battle a little more compared to a Champion like Lance. It's actually the same reason Blue in Gen 1 is a good rival as well, the team diversity means you also need a team that's balanced to succeed; or take many losses trying to brute force your way through. In Gens 1 and 4, it feels more true to the spirit of what Pokémon is about: catching many different Pokémon. Love this video, thank you making this type of content.
Agreed on that front. Then comes in Ultra Necrozma and Volo, which are probably Game Freak trying to introduce superbosses. YMMV on whether that is good or not.
@@Mrperson0 Those are final bosses, not superbosses. Gen 5 Cynthia is a superboss.
@@johnpolsen Guess I was using the terminology wrong. Both of those were much harder to defeat than Cynthia.
One of the things I remember about cynthia is not only her Spiritomb and Garchomp, but the Togepi Egg she gives us. Which means, she likely has one (fully evolved), or knows someone who does. I didn't expect much else, but when I saw Milotic and Lucario, it actually made sense given her personality.
Not only did her battling skills not get mentioned in all interactions with her before the final battle, IIRC at least in D/P she doesn't even reveal that she's the champion. I was very surprised when I went up the elevator and found the mysterious, awesome trainer I had always wondered why I kept running into.
Hearing you talk about Cynthia's out-of-battle characterization makes me want to hear you talk about Alder's. I'm not sure if there's a specific "game design" discussion to be had about it similar to your previous videos, but Alder is one of my favourite champions to hear about because of how he's built up throughout the game and then is beaten by N just before you get to him.
average cynthia fan vs average alder enjoyer:
Same, I really wanted to fight Alder so I was miffed with N for that so after dancing a bit around resh I wrecked his and Ghetsis’s teams cause 3 of my Pokémon were counters to their entire teams.
So much this!! Alder deserves so much attention! I adore his characterization out of battle. A lot of people found his battle underwhelming but I think it's not really the point of his character. He's not meant to be the strongest or anything. He's just meant to be a wise (silly) man who travels around the region giving advice to young trainers. He has a pretty interesting backstory and I love how he's one of the only Champion who lost their title canonically; it makes a lot of sense for him to give up his title and just get back on the road. (anyways I just really love Alder (and Pokemon BW in general) and I could speak about him for hours)
@@owleeve2098 Alder's theme is also one of the best I've heard from this series, that gives a clear message to the players: You're not here to battle Alder just to prove a point, you're in for a fun time with the man who has guided you during your journey.
Honestly, Alder losing to N off screen killed all the hype he had going for him. Still a great character, but it is easily overshadowed as a champion in gen 5 by Iris and her surprisingly strong team that comes out of nowhere.
This is a really cool video!
As you were listing all the reasons for the psychology of Cynthia as a character, it occurred to me that Cynthia and Red are terrifying for the exact opposite reasons. Going through your various points and comparing them to Red's NPC depictions:
-Cynthia is seen throughout the game interacting with you. She has an established personality, and the player can get to know her to an extent. Red is a complete nonentity, most players probably didn't think he was IN Gold and Silver. And he doesn't even say a word, making him practically a blank slate at the time.
-Conversely, you pointed out that we have NO IDEA how strong Cynthia is going to be until we fight her. With Red, we obviously know how strong he is the moment we recognize him, because WE made him strong.
-The iconic piano theme (I didn't even think about the repetition when you lose and have to fight her again, I'm glad you mentioned it because I would not have even noticed) that plays when interacting with her before her fight is now absurdly recognizable and ingrains itself into the players' brains the moment you hear it. Red has no corresponding theme, because the only sound you hear when approaching him at the top of Mt. Silver is just the wind blowing. Not even the regular Mt. Silver music, just... ominous wind.
-As you straight up mentioned in the video, Cynthia leads with the definitively unknown Spiritomb while Red leads with Pikachu, the most famous Pokemon on the planet.
-Cynthia's team is composed of rare Pokemon and Pokemon associated with hard difficulty (another thing you noticed that I didn't, so thanks so much for that!), whereas Red's team is composed of Pokemon that a player is practically guaranteed to encounter (most people know that all his Pokemon are basically given to him in Pokemon Yellow). I find it kind of poetic that both can indicate their respective strengths. Cynthia's team says "This trainer is capable of finding the most rare and powerful Pokemon out there" while Red's says "This trainer is capable of bringing regular ol' Pokemon to their unstoppable max potential."
-Cynthia's ace is Garchomp and is the final Pokemon she sends out. Red's ace is probably best identified as Pikachu, which he sends out first (usually one of the Kanto Starter Trio is his final Pokemon, which doesn't really parallel Garchomp as much, though it is pretty thematic that Cynthia uses a Pseudo-Legendary while Red uses a Starter)
-In Cynthia's appearances in later games, she appears with almost no warning or fanfare. She's just there on vacay! In Red's subsequent NPC depictions (exhibit A: Gen 7) he gets talked up as this crazy powerful battle legend. Kinda funny how their positions as known and unknown entities kinda get reversed.
-And then of course these days, both of them have a reputation for being absurdly strong, yet are pretty easy to beat in their earliest battles because everyone has their teams memorized by now. They're famous! And they both get 4 different playable outfits in Pokemon Masters, which I don't think applies to anyone else?
TL;DR Your video is awesome, you helped me identify a ton of interesting comparison's between Pokemon's two most famous trainers, and now a) I want Red to get the treatment they gave Cynthia in BDSP and b) *we need a game where they team up and scare the crap out of EVERYONE*
Personally I think Cynthia's love of Mythology could hint at her using Dragon types and maybe the original inclusion of Gastrodon could've been to lure players into a false sense of security pretty much by being the Polar opposite of the intro with Spirtomb.
Great video! I always feel like Cynthia is a rare gem that can't be redone cuz of internet nowadays. The element of no expectations is difficult.
Also to note, her character design is really well done too. It's a simple design with a simple color palette, but it's so iconic that even a child could draw her and shed still be recognizable. And black and yellow just looks cool as heck.
I believe another fight that uses the idea you've posited, which I'm calling the Spiritomb Surprise from now on, is Lance's dragons. Not in his Champion battle, but in his E4 battle in gen 1. If the player didn't have outside knowledge, they almost certainly wouldn't know what the Dragonite line is; it's technically available to the player before this battle, like Spiritomb also *theoretically* is, but it's very unlikely the player found one in the safari zone without knowing it's there and specifically looking for it. What I think is outrageously cool though, is that in Lance's case, the player probably won't know how to deal with the Dragon type *at all*. Spiritomb, at least, you can probably guess one of its types is Ghost and start from there. But for Dragon, its only weak to ice, a type you also have to go pretty out of your way to get (in game trades like Jynx, optional areas like the Seafoam Islands, raising up the weak gift Lapras, etc). And the Dragons resist all the starters' elements, as if to say, "you can't just rely on your overleveled starter here!" I would go so far as to theorize that the Dragonite line, and the dragon type, was originally designed *with this one fight in mind*. That would also explain why there were no other dragons - they're pretty much a hidden secret endgame type!
I've had this theory for a while and I'm curious what you think ; your insight regarding Onix in Brock's boss fight, and the function it's trying to accomplish there, is what made me start thinking about the Pokemon battles from this perspective in the first place, so thank you!
Lorelei's team as a whole also has similar resistances to fire, grass, and water, and electric isn't advantaged against all of them. Bruno and Agatha then challenge any overreliances on normal and fighting on our team (very vulnerable to psychic though, as everything was) to further challenge the "spam one overpowered move" playthroughs like an overleveled Body Slam spammer or something.
Lapras actually makes a lot more sense now that you mention it, given to you as a backup in case Lance sends you back to the drawing board as a kid with an underprepared team. As you pointed out, Ice types were otherwise rare and not everyone bought the strategy guide like us nerds
Dragonite has the added weaknesses of flying which also serves to make it weak to several types you are more likely to have AND makes it crumble to Blastoise which benefits from the water starter privilege (learning ice beam and blizzard which makes it the easy option due to being Super Effective against the rivals starter already).
1 of the biggest hints that Dratini & Dragonair were found by fishing in the Safari Zone was lost in translation being the Dratini Episode where Ash catches all of his Tauros that was never English Dubbed. Your Theory on the Dragon Type makes plenty of sense.
In Gen 1 the idea was that Gyarados was your counter to Lance, but then the Devs realized Water/Dragon would only be weak to Dragon pre-gen 6 and the only Dragon move was Dragon Rage. I think that was a cool idea too, the common trash mon is an effective counter for the penultimate boss in the game.
Gyarados was a beast in gen 1. Special hadn't been split into special attack and special defense yet so Gyarados could hit pretty hard. It also had hyper beam
Diamond was my first game, and I had many problems (keep in mind my native language isn't english, so I didn't even know what I was doing). Between her and Lucian, my team was constantly mauled and took a dozens of tries until I finally won by spamming healing items.
To this day, I still keep in my heart that Machoke. He not only beat Roark (I had huge problems because Piplup forgot bubble for peck) but also defeated Garchomp and that feeling is simply unforgettable.
I had pearl as the 3rd game i owned and only knew 2 english words at the time, both of wich were swears. I also threw myself at this elite 4 relentlesly eventualy beating them only by spamming those herbal healing items you can buy which make your pokemon hate you but one of them is basicly a revive if i recall correctly. Only to then be faced with Cynthia. If availible i always have a garchomp in my team because of that. I just remember geting sweeped by it over and over again. I dont remember the team i had then completly (infernape, lucario, palkia but dont know the rest) and dont know how i managed to win eventualy, most likely just gaining levels from beating the 4 over and over again.
Pokémon Diamond is basically where I started learning English because it became a subject at school. The crypticness of the text definitely felt fitting for Pokémon which are of course also alien creatures to us.
I love how Volo has a Togepi and Gible when you first battle him, setting expectations low but already hinting towards the Togekiss and Garchomp.
That game also served to cement Cynthia as someone special, with Cogita and Volo resembling her, Cogita saying she is a descendant of the ancient Hisuian people (the Celestica? See 'Celestica Ruins' as well as 'Celestic Town' where Cynthia's grandmother (Professor Carolina) lives, which is close to the 'ancient retreat' where Cogita lives), and the Old Verse seemingly describing Cogita as well.
So much of the lore in DPPt and L:A seems to connect to Cynthia's family in some way or another, it is not surprising her family contains professors, villains and casual champions. Even heroes, if I understand the Old Verse correctly.
Also note that DPPt set Cynthia as somewhat of an old lady (although she is at most in her 30s, that is old for the target audience of kids/teens); she says the Pokédex "brings back memories" and "I've been studying mythology lately, just out of curiosity". This almost sounds like a bored pensioner. As a child I interpreted that to mean she was past her prime and no longer very strong, so imagine my surprise. :-)
The fact that the markers falling on the keys kind of line up with Cynthia's songs is crazy.
Cynthia is such an iconic boss with such an iconic soundtrack and it's pretty cool that the first female champion is so strong (arguably the strongest), I know it's still early to ask for the next video but It would be cool to see something about N and Ghetsis back to back boss fights, as N's is a honorable duel between heroes and Ghetsis proceeding to toxic stall you from the first turn
I’m so glad you touched on Volo at the end. All the emotions people associate with Cynthia are brought to bear in that last fight, and he keeps that reputation strong with the frankly insane ending. It builds off those expectations, but then throws not one but two curve balls to keep that reputation justified. So excited for that video!
My only problem with Volo is that his team is too much like Cynthia's. Hisuian Arcanine is the only new member, apart from Giratina who isn't Volo's Pokemon and can be classified as a separate battle. It plays a bit too strongly on the nostalgia factor without making Volo's team unique. Hisuian Zoroark would be perfect for Volo, both as a lead and for his personality, but Spiritomb was chosen because it immediately sets off peoples "Oh shit, this is Cynthia's team!" reflex.
However, Volo's still by far the best battle in Legends Arceus and one of the best battles in Pokemon period. I've gotten past Giratina at least 3 times but never save after doing so because I love rematching Volo with a variety of different teams. Volo's team is, as far as type diversity is concerned, the most versatile team on an NPC. He has 12 types in total while Cynthia, the second most versatile NPC, has 11.
I didn't know who Cynthia was when I played PLA and Volo was still terrifying. And even now, I still prefer him much more to Cynthia.
Another thing to note is the fact that to even get to Cynthia you have to go through the Elite 4 beforehand. This means that choosing an effective team to counter her results in a team that is weaker to the fights beforehand. If you bring an ice type to take on garchomp, you're essentially down one team member for Flynt. Bring a fire type to take down lucario, then Bertha will prove more of a challenge.
Cynthia was one of my favorite trainers because I was "that guy" who would scour every nook and cranny of a game and encounter those rare Pokemon that no one used.
When I saw Spiritomb as her first Pokemon, and Garchomp as her ace, it felt like I had found a kindred spirit in the games.
I felt similarly because of her interest in mythology. I was just a little kid playing my first pokemon game (my only other game was nintendogs) and it had never occurred to me to look things up or ask my friend for info. So she was a kindred spirit in a sense but also a seemingly all-knowing person who I half believed must be mystical herself.
I hadn’t even realised that the champion was a 5th trainer, it’s called the elite 4 so when I finally beat Lucian’s bronzong I thought I’d just scraped through. I was horrified to find out there was another, stronger trainer. I went through the doors and was instinctively relieved to see Cynthia, until this point she’s always there to guide you! The dissonance between my initial relief and the music was extremely unsettling and as she spoke I became more confused and worried. Then she said she was the champion!!! I didn’t have time to process that before being further astonished that she had spiritomb (when I’d placed the odd keystone in the tower nothing had happened and I had no idea why). Then I lost a battle for the first time 😭 I remember crying about my poor pokemon, I was so shaken I couldn’t even tell anyone what had happened.
After I’d recovered emotionally I trained my pokemon for ages before I had the courage to face her again! At first I wasn’t even happy I’d won, I was just relieved that my pokemon hadn’t all passed out again 😅
I also wants to talk about how cool her team is in Black and White (BW2 just has Glaceon, which I have less to talk about, except that it was the best Eeveelution at the time). She adds Eelektross and Braviary to her team. Braviary is the symbol of Unova, and part of the Champion Alder's team. Eelektross is a rare Unovan Pokemon with no weaknesses. It also was used by the Final Boss.
Actually it's interesting how much Ghetsis team applies the same lessons as Cynthia. Rare, powerful Pokemon? Check. A Pokemon with no weaknesses? Check. A bulky Ghost Type? Check. The Pseudo Legendary of the region with incredible offensive abilities, and great coverage. Check. A random Water/Ground Pokemon that evolves from a common early route Pokemon? Check!
He keeps the Seismitoad, though. Albeit unlike Cynthia he becomes weaker every rematch, his strongest team is definetly the Black and White one, while his worst is his Ultrasun/Ultramoon one.
@@Ditidos Oh yeah, I completely forgot that part of USUM! I never completed it, actually
The line "Cynthia will never stay a memory" gives some heavy Sephiroth vibe. 😂
I have to admit I never had the chance to put Cynthia on that high of a pedestal, unfortunately. Gen 4 came out back when I was in Highschool and I stupidly got scared of buying a DS and continue playing Pokémon out of fear of getting bullied. I got back into it when my youngest brother found my stash of old Pokémon games with my Gameboy Color and fell in love with the series. To the point he asked for a DSi with Pokémon Black for Christmas that year. And since he wanted me so badly to help him out learn the game, well... that's when I fell back in.
However, Cynthia was very well documented on the internet at that point, so I never experienced how that Champion fight defied all expectations back then. When I finally got around to play Platinum, I was actually disappointed about how little involvement she seemed to get in the story aside from telling you lore.
But I think I understand why fans love her so much now thanks to your video. Thank you.
the fact that all her pokemon have PERFECT IVs is so scary
The fact that the final pokemon of the previous game's champion isn't even her ace further reinforces just how strong she is.
Thoughts as I watch this:
* I actually didn't consider the impact of expectations - if she wasn't only the champion you'd just see her as a researcher/archeologist that loves her grandma, that's all we get. She didn't find her strength because it's all she cares about/her sole drive, she became strong because of her curiosity and the thrill of adventure - traits the game encourages.
* After Garchomp my immediate thought is her Milotic because it's a boss Pokemon in it's own right, it might be because Milotic is a top 10 Pokemon for me and I find Spiritomb a bit meh now, but yeah - it was very odd the first time you fight it. I also like Cynthia's team because it drives home 3 fundamentals about her:
- she loves the esoteric (pokemon that are rare with convoluted evolution/capture methods) and she is intellectually curious (poffins/pokeblocks for milotic)
- she has perfected her bonds with her pokemon over her journey (friendship evolutions, stone evolutions)
- she strikes the balance of beauty/grace and power
Cynthia showing up unexpectedly in a house for a fight that to her is a random everyday insignificant thing reminds me of how Hitoshura/Demi-Fiend shows up in Digital Devil Saga as a secret boss but with the random battle music from his game playing.
I just realized that the hint we get for Cynthia's team is literally her fascination with mythology. Every pokemon she uses is very rare and hard to get much like stuff of myths
I think the other thing is that while we feared her strength she’s simultaneously earned near universal respect for it.
Her other portrayals also held up this reputation but showed a bit more of her personality.
A little bit silly and more personable but no less overwhelming on the field.
She’s collected and focused without being stern. You feel like she’s serious, and that she’s essentially she’s much like you. A trainer with a strong and diverse team based around your favourites.
The way she’s introduced and kept in the plot of the game is also just really nice, her being the Champion was a surprise but sort of made sense considering how experienced she seemed.
Her interest in folklore and mythology (appealing to me personally as well) helped keep her plot relevant as well as establishing her as someone with her own hobbies and interests, her strength as Champion being incidental to her rather than the main draw until you finally face her.
Her design is also just really nice. She looks really good, and stands out a bit but not nearly as showy as some of the other champions.
She’s casually awesome without being a tryhard or eccentric.
I love how everyone remembers Cynthia as this great terror and I still can't get how goofy she is when ordering icecream in Unova 😂
I don't remember my first battle against Cynthia, but I do remember battling her again and again to level up Pokémon for the Pokédex and her Milotic and Spiritomb were very difficult to defeat even with higher level Pokémon.
My favorite fun fact about Spiritomb (and Sableye) prior to 6th Gen is that if you can set up Foresight, Fighting becomes supereffective against it.
In my opinion, making Cynthia an interesting person is an important part of it. Don't get me wrong, in small doses I like the archetype of a really tough character who is all about strength and nothing else. It gets tiring if overdone, but every now and then it's fun. Especially if, as you pointed out with your talk about expectations, the character can actually live up to their cocky attitude. But Cynthia is an interesting person. She could be the weakest trainer across all games and she'd still be one of my favourite characters. I like her personality, I like the way she talks, I like the way she just randomly shows up occasionally, I like that she's basically just some nerd who has become powerful as a byproduct of an adventurous life but still views Pokémon battles enthusiastically and without pretension.
And, as you didn't point it out, I will: she's beautiful. I was taken with her even back on the DS with her pixel art. I don't mean that exclusively in the crude way, either. I like her fashion. I love her cute black coat, eternal simp for girls in black that I am. I _adore_ her long, gorgeous hair, and the way she accessorizes it, and the way she combs it over one eye. She's a memorable character any way you slice it. And that's before we even touch on the fact that she has not one, but two highly enjoyable and memorable theme songs. I also associate a lot of the other iconic Sinnoh music with her because of her keen interest in stuff that is central to the plot and the way she serves as the player's connection and guide to those things.
Yours was a thoughtful and detailed dive into the subject, and I enjoyed it. You've got yourself a new subscriber. That said, I think I deserve to end with some bragging rights since we're on the subject: I've never lost to Cynthia. Ever. Not when I was eleven years old playing Diamond version for the first time, and not any time subsequently. That's not to say she didn't make me sweat, but I always got her on the first try, even if sometimes by the skin of my teeth. That's another reason I love her, though. I effortlessly sweep most Pokémon games pretty much on autopilot. I suspect a lot of people do, the games aren't really a challenge for the most part. Cynthia is the only NPC who ever made me feel like I might actually lose, and I'm including the Frontier Brains in that. I'm always going to have a special fondness for her as Pokémon characters go.
A masterclass in game analysis. Through great editing and amazing scripting, you managed to explain one of the most iconic boss fights in gaming in a compelling way. All while keeping my attention the entire time. As a fellow game designer, this is the content I aspire to make. Sub earned.
I am an older player who skipped Pearl/Diamond, I always felt like I was missing something about Cynthia (though I respected it, I know my knowledge of Gen 4-6 are very limited.). Thanks for explaining.
Garchomp takes advantage of any weaknesses your team has to physical type damage, while the entire rest of her team is set up to deal with any weaknesses your team has to special damage. You'll be hit with lots of special damage on your way to Garchomp, who will then chew through your team by forcing you to switch out from Dragon Rush or to use revives/potions. Diamond and Pearl introduced the Physical/Special damage separation in that generation, and her team seems to feature this. Combined with all her varying types, and fighting/poison to deal with your ice (and now fairy) types, she has a way of effectively "dividing your resources" and straining your defences, with HP and your defensive stats being your player's overall health resource. And she never makes a big deal of any of this; a casually powerful iconic queen who has humbled us all at one point or another.
My first experience fighting Cynthia was in bdsp, and I was absolutely terrified. Admittedly, my team was not that prepared for her, due to me not having any ice types except for ice fang on floatzel, and it ended up taking me at least 6 tried before I just put all my rare candies onto my gallade and sweeping with that
Bro I waited a few days to find the perfect moment to watch this video and I dont regret at all. This video is pure gold!
And the ending mentioning Vollo was so epic. Ill be so hyped the day you upload a video about him lol
Cynthia is, to this day, an unforgettable opponent that stood on top of all others.
Until she didn’t
Because she was also the setup for the hardest, greatest, most batsh*t insane sequences in the entire franchise by a comically long shot.
I cannot put into words how perfect the Volo fight is. Everything is handled with such flawless precision. The slower, more epic piano, immediately followed by Spiritomb, really sells the thought of “I have to live through this nightmare AGAIN?”
The strong and agile styles in conjunction with his incredibly fast and destructive team means he can mow through you before you can even process this. The fake-out at the end, making you think that the fight’s finally over, only to hit you with TWO Giratina phases immediately after. And keep in mind, you are not allowed to heal a single hp in between. And to top it off, the cutscenes look absolutely incredible, and really glue together the experience. Plus, Volo’s personal character design is also really effective, with the familiar Cynthia resemblance bolstered by his radiant white clothing, giving him an almost godlike appearance.
I genuinely think Pokémon peaked with this fight. There has never been, or ever will be, anything that comes out of this franchise that could come even close to capturing the greatness present here.
What? I fucking hate the Volo fight.
Legends Arceus had that annoying new battle system that basically meant each new Pokémon switching in would always go first and always kill the other Pokémon on the field, and then they made Volo hard by giving him *more Pokémon* than you. The only battles I enjoyed were against overleveled Alpha Pokémon.
Funny how the one closest to her in memorability was her own ancestor. I do wish he had one more different Pokémon like a Hisuian Zoroark because his team is almost exactly the same. It would fit the myth theme
@@cosmicspacething3474 True. Hisuian Arcanine is kind of a weak link on his team.
Huh. I never thought about it in that way.
@@jesuschristisyhwh I think one could argue that Hisuian Zoroark would be a better lead then Spiritomb. Not only would it benefit more from the Agile and Strong style battle system due to its far higher Speed but it also fits Volo's personality.
However, I also understand that everybody associates Spiritomb with the fearful anticipation of facing Cynthia. That's exactly what Legends: Arceus was going for so the developers had 2 choices.
1. They could either use a different lead and hope that Volo had a powerful enough presence to carry the fight. That could have worked very well in its own right due to him having such a significant presence in Legends: Arceus and everybody already assuming that he's Cynthia's ancestor.
2. They could use Spiritomb to confirm that yes, Gible and Togepi weren't just fan service, this madman IS Cynthia's ancestor. Hell, Spiritomb is an exceptionally rare Pokemon that can live (as much as a Ghost is capable of living) for thousands of years so one could mistake it for a Legendary. Maybe the very same Spiritomb was slumbering for centuries and Cynthia found it, having no idea that her ancestor used it in his quest to destroy and remake the universe all those years ago.
One thing to add with the expectations for Cynthia is that she gives you a Togepi egg in Platinum, meaning that you can expect that she would have a Togekiss in her team in Plat. But it's only one Pokemon, and not her ace, meaning that even then you only expect a single pokemon from her that doesn't pain anything anywhere close to the full picture, especially since Togekiss could be apart of the team of both a normal and flying type specialist (flying seeming like the obvious answer since a champion specializing in normal type would be pretty weird), which hides Cynthia's true speciality of rare pokemons.
I love this video. Such a unique angle on such an iconic character within this fandom and one that really allows me to better appreciate the hype which is really fun. Also I LOVE all the Ace Attorney references, sound effects, and music - more of that please!!!
Very interesting breakdown. Looking forward to wathching more of your videos. I always appreciate when someone knowledgeable can expand my views in something I thought I knew very well.
Cynthia's design is one of setting and surpassing expectations.
You've done very well with this video, and I hope the expectation of Volo video is fufilled 😊
My first experience with Cynthia was in bdsp, and I gave up after twelve tries… my team was made up of all bulky Pokémon, and the fastest I had was absol, so if I didn’t get caught off guard climbing back up through the elite four I still would not be able to break through… also, from what I remember I was at a net loss on money after each attempt, so I eventually ran out of money to buy healing items
Every time before I enter the Elite Four I always spend all my money on healing items--if I don't have money anymore then there's nothing I can give up whenver I lose.
Mannnnnn you got me so excited for the Volo video
Great explanations! The flow of thought is well-organized and though you could have cut some time to keep it concise, I sure appreciated the funny jokes here and there. Looking forward to your next videos!
i think jaiden animations kinda nailed the feelings of a cynthia fight well,that garchomp comes out towering over your entire team
when you look into those cold golden eyes all you can feel is its hate,and you have nothing that can handle what comes next
Gastrodon was pretty fearsome back in the day tho, it could wall some teams pretty hard. Though those teams will usually be walled by Milotic too
It still is, is a good tank with only one weakness and two great offensive stab. Being on Cynthia's team isn't surprising at all.
Gastrodon gets the short end of the stick. I was furious when Ash's Pikachu slapped it aside like it was nothing. If you're going to have Pikachu beat Gastrodon despite half of his attacks being useless, at least have another Pokemon weaken it first!
They should have also done a callback to "That Brick Break landed on Torterra's head" by having Pikachu slam Iron Tail onto Gastrodon's centre eye. That would have been a Critical Hit just like when Cynthia explained "The shock from that attack spread all over the body". It would make Gastrodon's loss believable without making it look pathetic on top of showing that Ash has learned from Cynthia by using her own technique against her.
It’s a good option because grass isn’t a great offensive typing, so you won’t even have grass coverage for it unless your team was quite weak to ground or water. I could see the benefit of keeping grass coverage for Bertha
OK, fucking instant sub for the opening right there. Loved the intro to Weather's power in that scene, and the joke fits way too well.
I’ve recently been binging your videos and I find them very enjoyable! Keep up the awesome work! For what I’d like to see next, maybe discuss the design of legendary Pokémon and how they’re implemented within the games, I think it would be a very interesting topic!
What's disappointing is that Geeta absolutely could have lived up to expectations. Glimmora leads and _immediately_ Terrastalizes. Give her the Sans treatment and even have her call attention to it. "Most of your opponents have saved this for last. But I warned you that I don't hold back."
The rest of her team needs to be filled with monsters. Speed Boost + Stored Power Espathra, Curse Dondozo, Loaded Dice Baxcalibur, Focus Sash Ceruledge, and end with Kingambit at +50% Supreme Overlord. I know GF don't want to make the champion too hard and that's fine, but they set this woman up to be the strongest person in Paldea. She needs to back that up.
The problem is Glimmora needs to end last, ever since gen 6 the ace of every boss comes last. This is specially needed for Geeta who was designed specifically to be Glimmora's partner, so if order to change Geeta's ace you also need to change her design.
I think in order to improve Geeta you only need to change his Avalugg for Cetitan and Gogoat for Arboliva, so she still has a team representative of Paldea. Then just give her team perfect EVs and IVs like in BDSP (or at the very least Kingambit and Glimmora), so now her team is actually challenging.
In that regard, I think the old adage is true: rules were made to be broken. If keeping the aces last is why Geeta keeps a lead in her back pocket, then it's hurting her more than it's helping. No need to change who she is or what she looks like (though I wouldn't say no to a little something...), and making it a point that she breaks tradition for the sake of the battle sells a character of its own.
Solid production quality, was interesting.
I love your representation of Ghost trick in this video, it really deserves all the love it can.
It's the actual battle theme for me - it's beautifully chaotic and awe inspiring
I played through original Diamond Version a few months back. I EV trained my team, but didn't overlevel. I got some decent items, as best as I could manage. I had an Ambipom, Heracross, Spiritomb, Rapidash, Roserade, and Empoleon. Yes, I went to the trouble of getting out both my DS systems and earning Spiritomb. Yes, I honey'ed those trees until I got both an Ambipom and a Heracross. I went in, trouncing the Elite Four fairly normally. Then, I got to Cynthia. Even with the right natures, EV training, some modest hold items, but no healing items (I didn't use Potions or Revives) and it STILL got down to the wire. The 'Mon that it came down to in the end was my Ambipom. She had been U-turning in and out to soften up or finish off an opponent after each time Cynthia KO'ed one of my guys. Cynthia's Garchomp nearly got me, but she didn't save it for last! She actually brought it out early. Her last 'Mon was Roserade. I knew "Pompous" wouldn't survive a hit from Roserade, but I knew I was faster. I just had to land my Double Hit and it worked!
...and then volo came along and scared the sh1 out of everyone
This is such a great video. I’ve never actually played the Sinnoh games but I’m well aware of the reputation of her difficulty. And this video does such a great job explaining it all. She is strong trainer for many reasons and I love how her team perfectly realizes her passions for history and her kindness. So cool!!
AND THAT PIANO
Her choice of both Garchomp and Milotic, there's an artistic dualistic symmetry between her two dragons, beings which are sometimes prominently featured in cultural creation myths as responsible for creating the universe, aka the cosmic dragon. Given the themes of space, time, and creation already present in the plot, it seems THIS is one incredible example of her love of mythology. Spirits, Plants, Birds, GASTROPODS, Humanoids, Fish/Worms (Feebas/Milotic) and now even AI (when she uses Porygon), these are all archetypes of entities found on Earth which represent significant evolutionary moments in Earth's history, some paid special attention in creation myths, with deities creating the light, the sea, the land, the plants, the animals, and eventually us (and now AI). All of these themes fit her love of mythology, but they all also have nothing to provide you in terms of how to prepare your strategy; I suppose perhaps the multitype aspect of her team is an indirect result of a team designed around dragons and the major evolutionary beings those dragons created in the stories found in ancient religious traditions.
i'd LOVE a follow-up about volo!! i didn't grow up with pokemon, only getting into it as an adult, so my first experience with (most of) cynthia's team was being beat down by a surprise villain. i'd gotten used to easy battles and predictable characters, so i was NOT at all prepared for him. it's not as easy to over-level in arceus either, so i didn't have that advantage, which is something i've had in every other game even while consciously trying not to be. it's funny, even with hardly any knowledge i still recognized her theme when it started playing, which says a lot about her notoriety! i wish i'd experienced her back in the day!
I caught a Gabite and raised it in Platinum to use as a tool against the Elite 4 since Platinum is much harder that any of the Pokemon games I'd played before. Cynthia still caught me off guard because the cutscene began the second I set foot in the room and as such couldn't savescum. My final team was Empoleon, Giratina, Garchomp, Rapidash, Roserade and Luxray and it involed using Toxic Spikes.
My experience supports your hypothesis. I was constantly on the computer as a kid, and while I didn't directly look up her team, I had studied up on every new pokemon ahead of time. When she sent out spiritomb I knew what it was, roughly what stats it had and what attacks it might use. She was a tougher than average battle, but I didn't understand why other people were so impressed.
Funny, when you asked which pokemon comes first into my mind thinking about cynthias team besides garchomp, the only one I completely forgot was Spiritomb xD
I thought of milotic, the only other pokemon on her team that ive really struggled with. I always keep something for milotic and garchomp whenever I run her battle, everything else I can get by with whatever
Milotic made a huge impression on me as well, so pretty and so hard to beat. After the fight, I checked the pokedex, noticed it was just after feebas, that scrawny, ugly thing which I encountered randomly when first exploring Mount Coronet, one-shoted by accident because it was so weak, though "nevermind, weak as it is, it will be like Magikarp, there's going to be plenty, I'll find another one for the pokedex soon enough, and it's going to end up in the PC forever", and quickly forgot about it. I never managed to find another.
@@filiaautoh the pain I felt when I was hunting for that damn fish back in Emerald after beating Wallace. THE POKEDEX SAID IT WOULD BE HERE, WHY DO I ONLY GET CARVANHAS. Good times.
2:24 Love the Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective reference here ^^
Very good video ! Thx for the respect due to the artists with their names written ^-^
I first fought Cynthia in Diamond. I was still pretty young. My first set of games was Generation III. At that point, I was still sort of learning how to play well. In Sapphire, I won with basically a Swampert "Hypercarry" where he was overlevelled and the rest of my team took a backseat. By the time I got to Emerald, I played a little more mindfully. I got sort of in the habit of replaying those games often while I waited for DPPt to come out. Replaying Gen III as often as I did, especially RSE, made me think that Cynthia was going to be the champion because she comes around to help in a way similar to Steven over the course of my run of Diamond. Where I was wrong about her was that I was FULLY expecting her to have a specific type. I think I anticipated her being a Dark-type specialist or maybe even a Dragon one like Lance since she liked myths so much. After fighting tooth and nail and inevitably having to try her over and over again, I eventually beat her but she had become so daunting that when I played Platinum, I definitely recall spending the ENTIRE run from start to finish thinking about how I'm going to deal with her team, going out of my way to check movesets of the mons I caught and being mindful of what Pokemon like Garchomp struggle against, which I had never really done as a kid until that point. The effect she has on players is so wild, but I definitely remember being so elated any time I was able to overcome her. Definitely a champ for the history books.
Cynthia deserves her reputation. She is the best champion and ever introduced.
i didn't play in Cynthia's time, but in arceus the guy you showed at the end, I still have the same emotional reaction to the piano beacuse of him
Steven also has a double battle in Emerald in the Mossdeep Space Center where he uses Metang Skarmory and Aggron! Really interesting point about seeing their strength displayed ahead of time compared to Cynthia, never thought of that. Amazing video
In 2006, the Pokemon media infrastructure was more or less fully built out and modern. We had gamefaqs, serebii, strategy guides were still a thing, message boards were still a thing. Hell, Facebook opened to the public (as opposed to being only useable by people with college email addresses) 2 days before Diamond and Pearl's release. Information about Cynthia and her team were very easily available. There were probably fewer kids utilizing online resources than adults, but that's true of every generation. There's just no way the information ecosystem of Pokemon made an appreciable difference in how Cynthia was received relative to other champions.
I like how you remind us that searching info online to fight a player is cheating and saying someone is easy after cheating isn't a fair way to judge them....
Same could be said for Steven Stone. He has both Hoenn's Fossils, a Skarmory which is a rare encounter on a specific route in Hoenn, Aggron which is also a pokemon only found in a cave where you would want Flash to navigate in, a Claydol while not as rare is still very unique and the unobtainable b4 beating the e4 and champion pseudo Metagross
Her using a Milotic the Trumpcard of the last Champ as a Sideman is such a power move.
Snd Gastrodon while not particulary rare is a hell of a Dualtype to face of against.
cynthia was a beast of a battle that i think took me tens of attempts, and that's exactly the level of difficulty that all champion fights should be like.
Meanwhile I just wore her out on my first attempt with a team in the low 50s and, like, 20 Revival Herbs... I had a lot to learn, but I at least knew how to item-spam.
That made me remember the BDSP Nutzlocke I did with a friend where we lost almost our whole team during the elite 4 just to kill cynthia with our level 60 dialga (which died to Lucario) and level 62 staraptor alone by cheesing with evasion. Great times, in fact, we let our neighbor ring the bell twice before we could open up for her because we were so hyped up. The look on her face was priceless tho because she heard everything lmao.
I'm so glad you included Cynthia's Unova appearance in this. I did have difficulty with her in Gen 4, but it was Gen 5 that traumatized me. I'd gotten so cocky throughout the course of that relatively easy game that I accepted Cynthia's challenge with blithe indifference. I've never suffered a more humiliating and immediate defeat in the course of the main story.
Impressive amount of research 💯 , awesome 😎