Can an external PCI-Express to PCI adapter work? Sort of...
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- Опубликовано: 4 авг 2024
- UPDATES: I didn't mention but my Lab machine is running in Legacy BIOS mode (not UEFI) and had Option ROM support enabled. Also, it is impossible to plug a SATA power cable into the PCI adapter and plug a PCI card in at the same time -- they SATA connector keeps the card from being inserted.
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In this video I try out an interesting PCI Express to PCI adapter. (From China, of course) I want to use a PCI SCSI card on a modern machine so I can access Amiga and Mac SCSI drives.
PCI-e to PCI bridge Chipset: PI7C9X113SL
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the sata power connector is exactly that, it provides power to the board for higher power cards.
^SATA not sata
This. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the reason it didn't work on the bench computer is precisely because of the lack of power to that connector. Without it, power on the PCI side might just be unstable and depending on the exact motherboard power delivery, especially given that the host-side adapter card doesn't seem to have any kind of intelligent power circuitry to convert all those different PCIe power rails to the probably only one power cable in that USB cable.
Donald J Trump who cares? sata SATA sAtA SaTa SAta saTA sATa
@@CalintzJerevinan546 It's not a linux problem lol.
@@technikfreak9859 You're an idiot. Go back to school kid.
Check the block diagram for the motherboard. Sometimes the 1x slots are already behind a PCI hub logically. As others have mentioned, a different slot might work.
The x1 slot you used was probably on the PCH and not direct to the CPU. Plug it into one of the x16 slots near the top and it may work fine.
He's using them for the graphics card. Might worth a try just to be sure
@@DEMENTO01 It's the bios. Not all newer machines will do in 13h. If does not older scsi cards will not work
Niya Blake my Z170 motherboard has a pci connector (asus Z170-A)
@No No That's a bit harsh! I came in here to say I was surprised that anything worked with just the power delivered down a usb cable due to constraints with voltage/current. Didn't expect a Spanish Inquisition on the chap. The SATA power plug looks to me it will probably get in the way of any card plugged in as it's vertical out of the backplane board. Might need some soldering and some short wires to fix that.
@No No Still a bit tall, lots of cards have PCB in that area.
take note: videos like this are a masterpiece of youtube history. The presentation and suspense is great. Thanks man.
I bought one of these 2 years ago for my X99 system as it has no PCI slots and I had an older DVB tuner card I wanted to use. It worked fine for about 4-6 months and then it blew up taking out all the PCI-E slots on the motherboard. The way these things power the PCI cards is badly designed and it will still switch on and work even if the auxiliary SATA power connector isn't used. It has no overload protection so if the cards draw too much power over the PCI-E connection then you run the risk of damaging the motherboard as I did. The power connector on mine was also positioned badly where longer PCI cards would get in the way so I had to makeshift an angled connector that was shallow enough to fit. I wouldn't recommend using these on any motherboard you can't afford to damage and instead just buy the PCI-E equivalent of whatever expansion card you need or pay more for a better branded one such as Startech.
I know i'm late to this, but here's an explanation of the SATA power connector. A lot of external gear used to have Molex power connectors, those provide 12V and 5V. SATA connectors, when made properly, also have 3.3V on another lead - and traditional PCI needs 3.3 and 5V to support all equipment. Easier than having a step-down converter on the board
Did you try plugging it into another PCI express slot? I have had issues with slots and plugged into another spare slot and had success. Hope you get it working
You’re right in thinking that kind of chip usually goes on a motherboard. If you check the block diagram in the manual of a recent motherboard with PCI slots, you’ll see “PCIe to PCI Bridge”. Later graphics cards also did this but in the reverse way, so they could design the card for PCIe and then port it to AGP by simply sticking this kind of bridge chip on the board.
Last year I bought a selection of PCI to PCIe adapters and vice versa and risers, I managed to get an NVidia Quadro NVS 295 working on a Pentium II ! Out of a big tub of cards that I have its the only one that would POST. I got H.264 hardware video decoding working in XP !!! Love your videos BTW.
Thanks for another awesome video Adrian.
This room is AMAZING!
Out of curiosity, does the BIOS on the bench computer have a setting related to "Allow option ROMS" or something to that effect?
@@adriansdigitalbasement OK.. just a thought. I should have known better that you would be aware of it :)
@@supremerulah420 There might be an opton for legacy hardware. I had an issue recently where an LSI SAS controller woudn't show its POST screen.
This will be tghe case as non-EFI hardware. Adaptec card is from 1999 according to its copyright.
I am also going to assume that Secureboot is OFF in this configuration.
Legacy Roms will not load with secureboot enabled. It might also be
worth it to turn off UEFI, Post the computer, and see if you get a
Adaptec confituation screen at post
First power the adatper with the SATA power cable, second you need to look in hte BIOS of the other computer to enable looking for Other Bioses, remember that you are trying to boot a BIOS on a UEFI system (which might not work)
This is the correct answer. An old Bios card won't start in an Uefi environment. You'd need to set it back to Bios (can be done on lost boards)
Oscar winning 'duh I've never seen riser card before' part. 10/10 mate
I have used these to expand out an single 16x machine to have 4 different cards, scsi, fiber channel, esata, and SAS. For a customer of mine didnt use the same wine you did, but same concept I know all the extensions needed to have power to work but the worked flawless out a 16x slot.
Do you have a legacy boot option in the Gigabyte BIOS ? Latest BIOS update?
Add additional power using the SATA power plug as you might not have enough through pcie x1 ,plug in a sata power cable as well on the board and should work on main PC.Worked for me
Excellent, I need an adapter like that because I have tons old PCI cards ( Not PCI express ) and I wanted to use them on new computers !
As others said, you may need to go through all BIOS settings and make sure anything 'legacy' is enabled. Personally, any PC I build, I always get a motherboard w/ 2-3 legacy PCI slots just in case I need them (and I didn't want to have to buy new PCIe cards for things I did have).
Double notch on Adaptec card is to mark the card as compatible with either 3.3V and 5V PCI standard. And yes, this card is officially 32/64 bit. Second notch on extended part marks it also as a 66 MHz capable. I have one on my Dell server. The only 64-bit PCI card I ever used ;-)
I'd suggest you tell the BIOS to force the gen of the PCIE to GEN1 as it may be in auto or GEN3.
5:10 ... You didnt connect the Sata power cable...
It actually begins at 3:03 in the video. He mentions that he's not sure if it's actually a sata power connection.
@@frankhernandez2833 I know. I just wrote my comment before he said it. I almost always watch every video until the end.
Yes 🤣🤣🤣 old but (didnt connect the Sata power cable) How Work !!!
Are you using Secure Boot or have uefi boot only enabled? I think you would need to have legacy (bios) enabled and allow option roms.
Is there anyway to test how much latency such an adapter card produce /introduce "if any?", i was thinking for soundcards. I have ADAT cards "i have seen one affordable solution for PCI-E" but otherwise they are expensive beyond my budget and i was thinking maybe a PCI-E to PCI solution could work.
Cool video! I like your videos, would be especially interested in an abridged version of them :)
Would it make a difference if the card was plugged into PCIe x16 slot for the riser to work, like on your Wyse system?
I have the extact same adater and i could get it to work with some cards, i will try some of the things you suggested and some of the others people suggested in the comments, thanks for all the info
I've used a very similar product as a GPU raiser. You need to connect the sata power cable. They work okish.
Agreed. I use something like this to turn a 1x port to 16x for gpu support on boards that otherwise cannot or will not fit a full sized gpu.
Adrian i wonder could you do a follow up video for this one, i am curious if you can get old soundcards like sblive, audigy 1 and 2 work under windows 10, using the "old drivers installing them as administartor using compability mode". I recently bought an aloder digital mixer that i got working in Windows 10 using windows 2000 drivers , i just had to install the drivers using compability mode as adminstrator.
I am currently thinking of buying an adapter to use with my old PCI "Adat soundcards", but if the machines do not even recognize the soundcards i guess the whole approach is mot. That it did not work with SCSI does not necessarily mean that it will not work with a soundcard?
What do you think will the adapter recognize old PCI soundcards?
I ran into the same issues you did, I had a use case for a SCSI card in a brand new machine and bought one of these adapters. I didn't get the SCSI BIOS to appear, but Linux did at least see the SCSI card as a PCI device. However, when I tried to load the drivers it just wouldn't initialize. Tried several different SCSI cards and had the same results. I think it's highly dependent on the system and whether or not the BIOS has support for legacy systems. So, if it works for you, great!
Is the bios in the i7 machine set to boot in legacy mode(CSM) or does it boot in UEFI mode?
Had the same issue with a mining rig, I believe there's a bios setting you need to change if I remember correctly
What model # is your Dell Wyse that your using in this video ? thank's in adv :)
Looks like a neat way of hooking up a GPU + Soundcard to a small Win98 computer with no decent expansion room
I've never heard of a windows 98 machine with pci express before.
@@awilliams1701 Yes official support is non existent!
But there are some modified chipset inf files which supposedly support a range of intel chips here: www.windows98.xf.cz/
I happen to have a Intel 915 Pentium 4 and Intel P35 QuadCore PCI-E board handy which are mentioned to be supported which I was planning to test and will get back to you how well those go!
Something else to check: msfn.org/board/topic/107001-compatible-hardware-with-windows-9x/
That was a great video perhaps you can check the BIOS in your newer computer to see if it supports Legacy ROM options this is used to display bios messages from older cards. If the new computer uses uefi the Legacy roms may not be initialised or displayed have a look for the option Legacy option ROM or something like that it's different for many motherboards
I think it is working on one machine (but not the other machine) for either of two reasons:
Either, it might be an IRQ conflict whereby the bigger machine has some other bandwidth priority for something on or in the motherboard (whereas the smaller board has less on it to use up bandwidth to cause that)...
...Or it might be the DMA on the smaller board. The reason I think this might be the case is that the thin-client would be part of a range of computers designed to go with business-class server hardware which expects to have weird expansion cards in it that have those odd DMA setups. There is an interesting Mark Furneaux channel video whereby he demonostrates how some business class expansion cards can have a strip on their PCI/Pci-e connector masked with tape so as to prevent domestic class hardware (mboards) rejecting it. I'll try to dig out the hyperlink if it helps.
I've been searching for a similar solution for me, i'm upgrading my rig, but I have a PCI capture card that I can't afford to lose, is a great analog capture card that captures S-video flawlesly, I hope that you find a way to make this thing work, and do a follow up video...
Have you tried to add the card's drivers as a legacy hardware device on device manager in windows 10?
Think it has anything to do with the new computer uses UEFI and the SCSI uses bios on boot.
It'd be interesting to see if you booted from a Linux live CD, if it picks up the bridge and the card in lspci.
what you said is only partially true, ive seen cards not be detected at all in windows (not even as an unknown device), that would fire up and work fine with no configuration in linux. linux simply has better hardware detection.
@@dcfuksurmom Hardware detection is not done by the operating system in that manner, Windows uses largely hal.dll for that, Linux has several different methods but in the end detection such as these PCI(e) cards is done by the BIOS, not the OS unless hotswap support is present and enabled, which it usually isn't.
So no, Linux does not do 'better hardware detection', that's just something said by those who didn't understand why something didn't work as they wanted it to.
Linux might have better support for certain devices, where Windows might have better support for certain other devices, detection however is done mostly at the physical level by chip logic, not the operating system.
I hope you've got a follow-up video on this thing. I absolutely know they usually work. I passed several PB worth of data to tape over ike 5 years at an underfunded non-profit. No more failed verifications than when it was using a native PCI-X card.
Get it some power and preferably a slot wired not to the PCH, but the CPU.
... Its only now that i have read the description. Maybe a 90° Sata power adapter? or soldering the cable onto the motherboard?
were you able to find a low profile sata power and ever try it on the card. I have mine hooked up with a low profile power and still having trouble with it on my new AMD system
1. There's a SATA power plug on the PCI board, maybe the power delivery is not present on the gigabyte?
2. some cards don't play nice with some motherboards, as the standards weren't there for a long time.
I don't know for sure but I suspect Linux could find and configure the bridge. It seems to do pretty well at dealing with things that lack BIOS support. Of course, then you'd have to use Linux to read/write the SCSI stuff.
I had some Pcie riser cards that had the same usb 3.0 for data and power and kost of the Cards didnt work without the Sata Power.
What's the model of the Wyse terminal your using?
So the bench PC is not in UEFI ? Why not ? It is more or less recommended when running Windows 8 / Windows 10.
Did you try an Bios update on the Gigabyte motherboard ? Most of the time that will solve things.
So the thin client is normally a Novel / Citrix based system ? Or does it run some kind of Windows ?
Did you try another PCI-E Slot on the Gigabyte mobo? Maybe go through the bios on the gigabyte system, you may need to enable something, change UEFI mode to legacy mode? Maybe change your sata config from AHCI to IDE? Maybe you need to plug a sata connector in ? I'm sure you could get it working.
Force legacy oproms in the UEFI, because the i7 is UEFI not BIOS.
I know it's kinda randomly asking but does anyone know of a good place to stream new tv shows online?
@@asanjuas its running in legacy mode.... he stated this at the beginning..... even my 7700k mobo has legacy support
Does anyone know, if those riser cards require the PC motherboard to support a specific USB connection (3.0 for instance)? If that is just an USB connector, but not connection, on the riser board and adapter? It would be great, if that way I could use my old external magneto optical disk drive connected to a PCI SCSI controller (to access the old discs, for backing up important files - to get the full UDF feeling I could also use DVD-RAM discs though - and of course out of nostalgia). Provided that there are working drivers for Windows Vista or 7, or Linux. Normally I only use laptops, but USB to SCSI adapters are extremely expensive, are just as little certain to work, and probably slow everything down due to the USB 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 specifications. At least the first two reasons apply to PCMCIA cards with SCSI connector as well (plus expresscard to cardbus adapter). An alternative would be to buy an old used desktop PC (not only for that reason) - that has to support USB 3.0?
This makes me glad that I was able to get a decent H97 board that has 2x PCI slots. Look for Gigabyte's lower end LGA1150 motherboards. Even some Z87 boards have PCI (warning: The boards can be fussy with the RAM installation/config).
It is a power issue. I am running the identical setup nearly to you, and I had to use a 90 degree sata power plug which I still needed to shave a little bit, and at that the pci card is only about 90% in the slot, but IT WORKS... Some motherboards react differently to power requirement signals on the pcie slots. That contraption has no logic to tell the motherboard what its power requirements are, so the motherboard will use whatever default is set by its maker. And its probably 5 or 10 watts only. The wyse may be giving the max of 25 watts or have a slightly higher voltage which is just enough for the card to work.
What happens when you plug the SCSI card pointing the other way?
Did you try the BIOS on the first machine? Change USB settings there? Usually there are some settings like boot, mode and other such things. I didn't see you bother in the video. If it worked on the thinclient, it would most likely work on that PC, IMO.
I'm surprised that gigabyte board doesn't have a pci slot. I have one on my gigabyte z97-ud3h board with my 4790k.
You should also add the sata connector for proper power on the PCI slots.
I bought one for my E-MU 1616M to plug into my 13900k z790 Hero. I can't part with this sound card, it's *PERFECTION* for a sound designer. But it's not showing up in DM, and so I am wondering if I need to plug power into this external adapter to get it to work, but I'm afraid in case I burn something out. Apparently, you can still get it to work... if you can get it to show up in DM. There are also 5v/3.3v jumpers on mine for each slot.
I was thinking about buying same adapter for the very same reason (I needed SCSI interface on my home server to access the tape library). Ended up with LSI PCI-E SCSI card however, cause I didn't have any SCSI adapter at hand that time around, but for those who have conventional PCI cards these adapters seem like quite an option
would it work over usb 3 or usb 2 directly rather than over pcie?
My PC has a small sound chip on the motherboard and I want to install a good sound card, but there is no PCI e-card slot on the motherboard. Can I buy a PCI e-card slot adapter and run the sound card by taking its power from USB?
I asked this to a few people and not everyone answered my question. What they told me was to buy an external sound card and use it.
I'd check for the INT19h option in BIOS.
But honestly, regarding the requirements, it was clearly a misstake changing the system at all. Any quad core should have been enough for flashing and such, and PCI was there ;)
Now with this newer system I would ditch the Adaptec and simply use an USB-SCSI-Adapter.
i need a pci to isa riser for my dos machine. help?
I think it's a BIOS compatibility issue. What you want is to turn on CSM support on your motherboard. Also check BIOS settings to allow RAID card interrupt. It sounds like the Adaptec card does not support UEFI (and indeed, I do not expect it to).
We use enclosure style PCI to pcie adapters at work to interface old PCI data acquisition hardware to modern Intel hardware. They're a couple hundred bucks but include the power supply and are a lot more secure.
Regarding compatibility, they should work with literally anything. PCIe is backwards compatible with PCI, so all that device is doing is serialization/deserialization. I've never had a device not work with ours, and we have some funky old hardware. Might want to spend a few bucks more though, for $15 I wouldn't expect much.
I wonder if it would be possible to do this kind of thing with old ISA cards?
Yes you can
If your bench computer uses UEFI, you need to enable CSM support for option cards or something similar. That might work.
Adrian I must know....what model Gigabyte board is that?
What about sata power connector ? Did you try to power that thing?
@@adriansdigitalbasement what will happen if you plug this in regular USB 1.x 2.0 or 3.x ?
I recently got one of these for my Adaptec 19160 aswell, mine particular adapter board use Asmedia 1083 PCIe-PCI bridge. And it seems to be more compatible with most PCIe slots, regardless if its a CPU direct bus or chipset bus.
Although i personally enable legacy mode in the BIOS, just to ensure better compatibility.
Hi Adrian, I have a Corsair Carbide 275R, Gigabyte Aorus Elite V2, a GIGABYTE AORUS Nvme Gen4 M.2 500GB PCI-Express 4.0 Interface with Windows 10 Pro X64, a Ryzen 5 3600, and 32 GB of DDR4 2666 memory. The case has two upright expansion slots on the back, and I would like to use my M-Audio 1010 Lite PCI, in my new build. Could you please suggest a good PCIEX to PCI converter to try? I would appreciate it. 😜
Would you believe my B350 MSi Tomohawk motherboard has PCI slots? Unreal I know not got any to test but maybe it uses this will need to check!
why do you use a GPU in the motherboard? the 4790k has a pretty OK iGPU
Great job sir
That looks like a Z97 gaming G1 motherboard. Extremely stable and could probably stay powered on for 20 years. I have a UD5H and it has a bridge for pci and 2 slots. Theres settings in the bios for pci. There might be some too for the G1.
You can use an angled SATA power connector and that SCSI card is a 64 bits PCI, so you can cut off the connections that are not connected. Now you should be able to get it to fit.
I suppose you could swap out the SATA power with a right angled one, or just hard solder a lead with plug to it.
A friend of mine has this kind of thing working en masse in his mining rig. I hope you get it working
sure why not? Failoverflow got PCIe running over 9600baud serial in asci mode...
that card you have is PCI-X card and may not work on a PCI 2.1 card slot
That actually makes for some good sense to make like a USB bridged bus, because it would possibly overcome signal spec issues, but could have some lag issues. I was wondering about like a big case, using some mount points to use slots beyond the motherboard. Recently when I got a new motherboard, I got an older, more expensive Prime 350B plus because I wanted my Audigy 2 card still. There are 2 pci slots and 1 is blocked by a 3 slot gpu.
It's not actually USB, they're just using USB cables as a cheap, easy way to pass signals back and forth.
is that a Zip drive in the floppy slot?
The PCIe x1 slots on this mainboard are attached to the chipset, so maybe the chipset doesn't support additional PCI(e) bridges to be attached to it. Have you tried plugging the PCIe-to-PCI card into the topmost x16 slot? That one should be connected directly to the CPU.
when using pci-e/pci bridge cards a large number of motherboards larger than 4 expansion slots use a "pci-e switch" and often fail to recognize the nested bridge cards in lower slots always try to use bridge cards in the topmost slots (often a x1 is just above the x16 gou slot) otherwise refer to the motherboard manual over which slots are directly connected to cpu lanes (often the "gen 2" listed lanes are NOT cpu lanes but instead switched lanes)
I wonder what would happen if you try a Voodoo 2 sli on this thing.
Can u make pcie to agp and , agp to pcie
Swapped in a board that can take a Intel core i7 4790 you say? I did the same to my old HP Pavilion a305w a long time ago, only I used a core i7 4771
Tx Adrian, my msi big bang fuzzion just died and so I lost the pci slots for my also adaptec aha2940 scsi2 card connected to my umax astra1200S scanner. So I am going to try this as well. If it works I can put it in a little box, and then I will have an usb3 to scsi2 adapter 😃
It might be that your UEFI bios has pci addon card boot bios setting on boot UEFI only . It could also be a setting in the bios set to only detect a certain pcie generation and maybe connect the sata.
Wow, I actually have a adaptec scsi card 39160. It works amazingly.
Check your bios for an "option ROM" setting, it should be on
I've been thinking about getting this. Mostly, I want to add USB 3.0 to my Dell Optiplex 3010 SFF, and the GT 710 card I'm using blocks the PCI-1X slot. From what I gather else where, this expansion slot accessory won't run advanced GPUs.
Also, I'm looking for a external case for this.
Are there drivers for the bridge chip? Just because the BIOS doesn't see it, doesn't mean Windows won't see it if it has the drivers.
i assume you did try another PCI-E slot? :-) sometimes 1x Slots are disabled if some other device is enabled,
Have you check your motherboard battery ?
Toubleshooting I'd try:
1. The SATA Power, you can find right-angle extension cables. The Wyse might have more power available on it's PCIe slot for some reason.
2. A different PCIe slot. Is that one shared with any other devices (M.2 or other)? It it on the PCH or CPU?
Looks like those 1x PCIe slots are special 2.0-only slots. Not sure if that's an issue...
3:06 my guess would be some kind of enterprise or server sata connector ?
hi got this for my pci m-audio cards i had to make a rig to hold to hold the card right you can get a case the hold this and cards
Hey Bob, I need to do the same thing for a an E-MU 1820M. Other than the SATA power did you have to do any special tricks to get it to run?
Yeah I need to do the same with my E-MU 1820m fucking sucks that manufacturers won't lave at least one pci slot for legacy hardware just managed to get a pcie E-MU 0404 not a great workaround
@@firstborn7370 If you guys still need a mount I used a mini test bench for my X-Fi Elite Pro.
@@willhartford2289 I was lucky enough to get my hands on a pcie E-MU 1616 but thanks
Did you happen to watch the video "Bits & more by René Rebe" did on this exact thing? Do you even know who he is? If not, I recommend you check him out. That SATA connect is for extra power from the PSU. It needs extra power to work properly. I honestly don't understand how it worked without extra power with the WYSE computer.
@@adriansdigitalbasement That's why I'm so confused. The SATA power, in my experience, is required for the adapter to work. Yet, the adapter worked on a machine incapable of supplying that power. I do not understand.
David Phantom, thanks for mentioning the "Bits & more by René Rebe" channel. I just subscribed.
"I honestly don't understand how it worked without extra power with the WYSE computer."
It probably depends on how much power is being consumed by other components versus how much the respective PSUs can deliver to the PCIE bus.
Legacy USB port option? Sata port is for power as the USB is for signal of the pci lane
Sata connector draws the power that's required for the skuz card.
My Ide 133/100 pci raid card had to draw extra power.
Adrian, You could retry by putting the internal interface PCIe on a longer 16x slot. by using the 1X slot it's maybe too slow to detect the scsi card. On that other wise pc, you plugged it on a 16X slot and it did see the card. And if it does see that card, if you want to plug in an external SCSI drive, be sure to supply external power to that interface card or external drive.
One other option. They sell riser card about two inch high inline with the PCIe slot and on top you have a PCI slot with no usb cable or anything else. It's a strait PCIe to PCI interface. The only draw back you can't put the side cover because the card will have two inch extend outside the frame of the case. An other one would be to find a flexible 16X PCIe to PCI ribbon interface the external board has two slot, one PCI and one PCIe ad you help for the power with one molex or Sata power connector to the external.
Many PC Mod builder use these special interface when they move the video card horizontal or the MB is not close to the video card.
lol, you're like a fish out of water with modern hardware. There's something comforting about that.