The thing that really gets me about Ben and his "apology" is the clear anger and confusion on his face when Charlie denies him that sought-after forgiveness (and the implicit attempt to get him to come back to this abuser, as Ben had harassed Nick about repeatedly). He can't believe that Charlie refused him, no hesitation and no qualms. He really expected this to go in his favor, for Charlie to fall for him again despite everything. Boy really has some narcissistic traits, all the internalized homophobia self-hate aside.
I feel like I'm the only one who was so angry with Ben's 'apology', and it's because, at least to me, it wasn't genuine. In fact, each time I watch a reaction or rewatch the episode it makes me even angrier at Ben. As someone who was in a relationship like that as a teen (I'm now 40- so a long time ago), I remember those BS apologies. I would keep going back and forgiving them because they would 'accept responsibility'. I clocked immediately how Ben's apology mask slipped several times when Charlie was reading him down. Nick was right when he said that Ben never really liked Charlie, he just liked having control over him. His home life doesn't excuse his behavior. One thing I noticed throughout both seasons is just how predatory Ben is. He's always creeping up on Charlie, practically stalking him, as well as verbally, emotionally, and physically abusing him. He even does the mental abuse on both Imogen and Nick throughout the second season- but Charlie is the main release valve for his rage. Yes, part of it is a lot of self-hatred, but I believe, based on the incredible portrayal of Sebastian Croft, that he is also a narcissistic psychopath. My oldest is Charlie's age and he pointed out that if Imogen had confronted Ben alone, or if Nick hadn't been with Charlie at the opening, he likely would have physically attacked them. I think... as humans and as members of the LGBT community, we want to give those around us the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately, there are horrible people in every community, even ours.
The thing that gets me about his apologies in multiple episodes is he doesn't really say, I apologize for... he says, you know I'm sorry, you know (blank). it feels like he's telling Charlie how to feel about him. ETA: the other thing is, he always calls the SA "what happened," not "what I did." He distances himself from the responsibility; he doesn't accept it.
Absolutely agree with this (and one of your comments resonates with later plot developments in the books). We have 2 characters in this ep who don’t feel able to be out to their parents. One of them channels their energy into positivity, “getting acquainted with the local gays”, building other people’s confidence up and being an unapologetically proud defender of queer rights in every context where they have the agency to do that safely. The other encourages and participates in homophobic bullying; treats another person as a hookup then ghosts them, tramples over any concept of consent, and constantly negs EVERYONE he’s around to try to extend his manipulation and control over them. We’ve seen Tao, in this season, recognise that his emotionally insecure behaviour has been having negative repercussions on his friends, and make an effort to change: Ben hasn’t shown any growth at all in the way he treats other people in this series, but zooms in on telling Imogen/a roomful of people at a party that they mean nothing to him and aren’t worth his time. Being “a fuckup” or having unsupportive parents doesn’t get close to excusing the way he treats people.
@@mamabeth834 That's how I always see Ben, too. From beginning to end, it's always been about him and what he wants. Definitely a narcissistic abuser, one who seemed to even get a twisted pleasure out of tormenting Charlie and making him think that he could never find better. He enjoyed that control, thinking he had Charlie trapped. It astounded and angered him that Charlie would ever dare to turn him down, right from the first episode. It's truly lucky that people were there to stop Ben from escalating even further, with Charlie or Imogen. Not as sure if he would've attacked her as he did Charlie since his relationship with her was largely another way to harass Nick and he didn't have any actual interest in her, but his pride may have pushed him to do something anyway. If he'd gotten Immy alone after she so publicly dumped him... ~shudders~ Glad he's too much of a coward to try anything, knowing that she's willing to call him out and has the backing of the group as well as probably the rest of the people with them on the trip.
On Yan being so excited for Elle and Tao: it goes beyond 'being trans not being the defining feature of Elle's story', although that is also true... But also, it's not outright stated, but it is VERY clear that Yan knew Elle before she transitioned. The whole scene of Yan wanting to catch up with Elle when she comes over in Season 1 highlights that too. We never get an awkwardness or a sense that anything has CHANGED for Yan after Elle came out... She's just the 'perfect girl' for her perfect boy, and that's all there is.
The reading I always got on Elle's piece being given a special unveiling and being the only one to get that was that Elle's piece was selected as the only piece by a PROSPECTIVE student, while all the other works are by current students. I've seen that kind of ceremony given to guest/newcomer works in these kinds of events before, so it made sense to me.
27:49 Of the reactions I've watched I don't think I've seen anyone mention the colours of Isaac's leaves. Purple is associated with Asexuality and Green with Aromanticism.
I know most of the people here are fans of Thom and know what an awesome person he is. The fact that he is so kindhearted that he literally wouldn't hurt a fly makes me smile and feel so warm inside. This is also one if my favorite episodes, although they are all great in their own ways. It's amazing that this second season not only lives up to all the anticipation and hype but is actually better than i could have imagined. I also wish there was a scene between Isaac and some of the friend group showing more support of him after he got upset, especially because no one noticed him upset and crying at Tara's party. Something totally irrelevant that bugs me is that Elle's parents aren't there for the art exhibit. We know they are supportive of her (based on next episode when Tau's picking her up for prom) so surely they would be there when their daughter was the featured artist at an exhibition. Maybe they were there, and just standing behind the bearded dude.
Could have been as simple as only being able to book the actors for a limited number of hours. I'll choose to believe Elle's parents were there, just offscreen lol.
@@sallymarr5329 Possible that they simply couldn't get out of work? Or maybe they were there and giving their daughter time with her friends and to make new ones with her new schoolmates. It's implied that Lambert is some distance from their home area, so everyone would've had to get there somehow. The train or a bus is definitely possible as we've seen Narlie take both on their own, but it's just as possible that parents drove at least some of them. In the comic, Elle's mom picked several of the group up for their upcoming beach day (teased for the first episode of S3), so she could have a larger car in the show as well.
You don't cover this, but it was nice to see Tara's mom! There's also a TEENY TINY hint here as to why Darcy didn't show up at Tara's later in the evening. Tara's grandmother, who does not know that she is a lesbian (let alone one with a girlfriend who sleeps over), will be visiting. And given the pressure that Darcy puts on herself to be a certain person for Tara, it's understandable that she would not seek help from Tara as her presence would beg questions that she does not want Tara to have to face from someone she is not out to.
Yeah, Tara's mom explicitly says, "No sleepovers tonight." Under the circumstances, Tara's mom probably would have made an exception and made up the couch, but Darcy doesn't act like it's even an option.
The issue about whether Isaac was “warranted” in blowing up misses the point. Isaac was authentically experiencing confused pain. He is a teenager, unable YET to process his feelings except in frustration. This moment is jarring but appropriate.
Not to mention, I can imagine in addition to Isaac feeling confused about his own identity, he also feels like he has hurt/let down James, a person he truly cares about, so not only is the gang reminding him that he's different because he's not into James romantically, but that James liked him and he feels like he hurt someone he truly cares about.
@@prairieartemis I also think it's worth noting that nobody talks about Isaac or to Isaac in these group settings UNTIL this moment. They talk on and on and on about themselves and what's going on in their lives, and he just tags along, quietly supportive. That really hit me when he said, "I get that you don't think my life is interesting unless I've got some kind of romantic drama going on." I was like, yeah, they really don't. With has supportive as he's been for all of them, that's really hurtful and pretty sad.
I think ppl sometimes confuse what being toxic means. Humans are going to have a range of emotions and valid anger or impatience. It doesn’t mean they are being toxic or bad. He absolutely is allowed to get upset. It’s not like he is being petty or selfish or manipulative. He is genuinely upset and confused and feels like his friends aren’t helping. Let the man have a blow up. It doesn’t make them a bad person, just human.
As a parent of a kid who’s only a few years younger than these characters, I watched this episode more from a parent’s perspective. The fact that Alice expanded on the comics to bring the parents more into the picture is so smart and so effective. I really think parents should be watching this show as much as young people are. The show shows us parents that are very obviously good (Nick’s, Tao’s, Tara’s mom, Elle’s parents) and very obviously bad (Nick’s dad, Darcy’s mom). But I like that we also see the parents that are somewhere in the middle, like Charlie’s parents. I can see their good intentions (and they actually remind me of my own parents !), but I can also see how their approach is failing Charlie. How they’re not seeing the signs, how they’re not listening enough or understanding enough, how they see maintaining discipline and rules as evidence that they know what they’re doing. This is very very typical. When I think of my own kid, my biggest fear is missing when something is wrong, or having her feel like she needs to hide something important from me. Charlie’s parents don’t even realize that’s happening to them. But, I still recognize that they love Charlie and they can fix this; I sincerely hope we see that play out in Season 3! And then there are the parents we don’t see (much), but can make some inferences about - Ben’s parents. These seem to be parents that have caused a lot of harm and damage to Ben, but in a way that’s harder to detect. They probably care more about appearances and what others think of them, and probably see Ben’s school accomplishments as evidence that they’re doing everything right with Ben. I also think they’re probably the type of parents who are raising Ben in their own image and don’t grasp the concept that your children are individuals with their own identity. Ben probably had to deal with so many expectations that he has to live up to (including the expectations around his sexuality). None of this excuses Ben’s abhorrent behavior. But it makes me sad that the parents have completely failed at understanding who their son is, and they’ve missed the opportunity to steer him in the right direction. I think Ben wanting to control Charlie, and feeling like he can do that and get away with it, may partly stem from seeing that type of behavior being displayed at home. It just makes me very upset to think parents like this really exist, and we don’t know who they are because, again, they paint a very pretty picture. It’s only when you see the child displaying toxic behaviors that you start to wonder how much of that is learned at home.
I love what you wrote, thank you, and it is so great getting this perspective, particularly as I am not a parent myself. I, too, love how the parents get more attention in this season (as, btw, do the teachers), and your insights helped me understand their motivations better. Regarding Charlie's parents in particular, which I'm glad you focused on, one thing that did bother me a little has to do with Charlie's dad, Julio. In S1, he showed tremendous compassion in several scenes, which brought me to tears, especially the hug he gave to his son after the First Kiss scene. I love my dad and he is wonderful, but I wish he could have been a little bit more like this when I was growing up, and I imagine quite a large number of people watching the show feel the same about their father (and/or mother, for that matter). However, that all seemed to be cast aside in S2, Julio was almost a different person, less compassionate - with the exception of the moment after Charlie's mum grounded him and Julio followed Charlie to the stairs and asked him if he wanted dinner. However, that didn't follow with how he was in S1, he didn't go to the fullest extent of possible compassion that he could have given to Charlie at that moment - or, perhaps, he is just a different person when he's alone with his son vs. when his wife is present. Do you have any thoughts / perspectives you might wish to add on that? Would love to hear. While we're on this subject, I do want to give kudos by name to these very fine actors who portray Charlie's parents, Georgina Rich and Joseph Balderrama, who play their parts so very well. In an interview, Joe said it was one of his favorite things to do in S2, his scenes with these two actors. Thanks to Thom for bringing up many good points on all the parental relationships and thank YOU again for some terrific, insightful commentary.
@@broddybounce Hi! Thanks so much for your kind comment! I agree with you that these actors did a really great job. One of the many amazing things about this show in general is how much these actors with smaller parts can accomplish with limited screen time. Julio Spring! Yes, I completely agree with you that after Season 1, it’s disappointing not to see him be there for Charlie in the same way. You mentioned in your comment that perhaps he’s different when Jane is there vs. when it’s just him and Charlie. I think this is EXACTLY what’s going on. The dynamic of Jane and Julio is very common. So often there’s one parent who defers to the other when it comes to difficult parenting situations, and they prefer to withhold their own opinions in order to not to stir the pot. Sometimes you see that person being the stereotypical “man of the house” and sometimes it’s the “tough love matriarch.” Like Charlie, I grew up with the tough love mom, and the dad who was more sensitive, but only showed it when mom wasn’t there… You can see in multiple scenes that Julio is making a face or wanting to say something, but he holds back. It is a shame because by doing so, he’s putting “keeping the peace” above being more supportive of Charlie. I’d like to think that after those scenes we are shown, Julio would at least check in with Charlie later, like he did in episode 2 when he asked Charlie if he wanted dinner. Again, I do hope that in Season 3 we see both parents evolve and focus on offering Charlie support and compassion, and I do hope we see at least one scene where Julio stands up to Jane a bit more, like he does in the comics. One more thought on Julio: the only time he does take the lead on discipline is when he bans Nick from sleepovers and doesn’t want any hanky panky going on. I think this was written this way to be funny because it just seems funnier coming from the dad. It also, to me, shows a level of openness and acceptance of Charlie’s sexuality in that he’s treating the situation pretty much exactly the same way he’d treat it if Charlie was straight and told them he had a girlfriend. In addition, I also connected this to Julio having Spanish heritage and potentially growing up in a Roman Catholic environment, where maintaining chastity is treated as this huge deal (again here, speaking from personal experience growing up in an environment like this).
@@melisahebe Thank you for your additional insightful comment, really appreciate it. And, yes, Julio's banning Nick from coming over for sleepovers did seem just a tad out of place for his character based on how he has acted towards Charlie previously, but, I agree, was likely done for comedic effect and helped set up one of Tori's very few iconic moments in S2. But I almost feel like Charlie, instead of being upset, should have responded, in a lighthearted, almost facetious manner, "Oh, Dad! Give me a break!" and then chuckled, or something to that effect - or maybe he would have, but for Mum being in the room. And, yes, I do hope they expand the storyline a bit for Julio and Jane in S3 - I do appreciate that while Jane was only given a measly 30 seconds, if that, in S1, the character was much broadened out in S2 and can be done moreso in S3. Perhaps we were treated to a foreshadowing of what might be a significant evolution in Jane's approach to parenting Charlie after her quite pivotal conversation with Sarah at the end of the dinner scene. And continued character development with the parents of the other series' characters in S3 will be welcome, as well. Thanks, again!
Yeah Jane and Sarah get more expanded roles in Season 3 if they follow the books. Loved this conversation - agree on all your points as a parent of a 16 year old. The traditional parenting method of it's us versus them that we were raised in is what Charlie's parents are showing with their discipline. We're all just learning as we go along as parents - also sometimes different kids need different parenting styles. But it only happens through trial and error unfortunately. I think as parents today some of us a learning that we don't have to be friends with our kids but we do need to be open enough to them so that they come to us with their problems. It's also hard as a parent to change your parenting style as your kid grows and needs more adult parenting. Here's hoping for Jane and Julio's growth. They have their work cut out for them with BOTH kids most probably in very dark places.
So, it's very sweet that Sarah is the one who suggests inviting Charlie's entire family... But also, I am choosing to believe that this was her trying to avoid having to spend so much time placating Stéphane, and hoping she can either fob him off on Jane and Julio, or try to spend time speaking to Jane and Julio herself to avoid him :P
@@elisabethbauman6190 Oh, I'm not being serious here. I mean, moreso I'm just saying that in her position I would be analysing every possible option to avoid speaking to Stéphane for longer than necessary :P
Charlie not blocking Ben could be a self-destructive/scab picking thing, but I could also see Charlie being hesitant to block him because in some ways it might feel safer to be able to keep tabs on Ben and know where his head is at, versus not knowing and always worrying about what he might do? I think some saw Isaac stumbling upon an aroace artist as sudden or convenient because for viewers who didn't come into the season aware that Isaac was or might be aroace, they consumed his storyline assuming it *was* a straightforward romance with James, and assumed that because they were in the dark all season Isaac must have been too, and that the kiss with James sparked a sudden realization, when I tend to see it more as confirmation of something Isaac had suspected on some level. If you watched the season *not* assuming Isaac allo, there were signs that he's been grappling with his identity from the very first episode. I also would have liked a short scene of one of the friends checking in after Isaac's outburst, even if he just brushed them off again. Charlie seems the obvious candidate, especially since they had that conversation about Charlie's feelings for Nick on the coach in episode 4. I wanna see more of their friendship in season 3! Ben definitely has a revisionist history thing going on when it comes to his relationship with Charlie. I think he vaguely gets that he wasn't a good boyfriend (or not-boyfriend) to Charlie, but I really don't think he understands *what* it is he did wrong, let alone how deeply Charlie was harmed. Exhibit A, Ben harassing Charlie over Instagram DMs and then creepily tracking him down and cornering him at Elle's art show to force him to hear him out when Charlie made it very clearly he didn't want to talk. Just as he did throughout their relationship, Ben isn't thinking or caring about what Charlie wants, it's all about Ben and what *he* wants, and their interaction's going to happen on his terms. Then there's the apology itself, in which Ben does not acknowledge *anything* he actually did wrong, just calls himself a "piece of shit" then talks about his unaccepting parents and how much he liked Charlie. At best totally self-centered, at worst it feels manipulative, like Ben thinks this is how he wins Charlie's sympathy and gets his forgiveness (or gets him back). Ben's been told directly by Charlie *and* Nick what he did wrong before - in season 1 episode 1 Charlie calls him out on not caring about his feelings, cheating, and using him for someone to make out with, in season 2 Nick calls Ben out on assaulting Charlie. But none of this is acknowledged in his apology, and there is zero acknowledgment at all of Charlie's feelings or how Charlie was hurt. It also feels telling that Ben uses the "if Charlie only gave me more time..." line that he used with Nick earlier in the season, and even with Charlie himself during the assault scene in season 1 episode 1. It leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I loved what you said about how this would play out in a bad rom com, with Charlie swooning over Ben's shitty apology and taking him back. Lots of teen shows have queer characters forgive, redeem, even date their bullies and abusers (Kurt and Karofsky on Glee, Eric and Adam on Sex Education, etc.). I *love* that Heartstopper rejects that trope completely, with both Harry and Ben.
Thank you for reminding me about Thom’s short diatribe on the “horrible person’s behaviour is ultimately redeemed when they’re forgiven by the self-sacrificing friends/partner they have harmed” romcom trope. It is SO poisonous, I hate it. High Fidelity is a prime example, not even for John Cusack would I watch that movie again.
At the heart of the controversy about how Ben's apology was received and answered seems to be how closely people identify with Ben's character. It seemed pretty clear to me that he was supposed to represent an archetype instead of a three dimensional human. His manipulative words, his abusive behavior, his revisionist history, his wild swings between saying he liked Charlie versus he barely knew Charlie versus he simply pitied Charlie were all kind of over-the-top. He used language that implied Charlie was an object to be won or stolen, and even during the apology itself, Charlie was "something good." Not the relationship was something good, but that Charlie, himself, was a thing that was good. He thought about absolutely everyone in relation to himself; he was at the center, and everyone else was a satellite to varying degrees. He was selfish and scheming and devious and duplicitous and deeply, deeply hurtful. Ostensibly, it would make sense that rejecting his superficial and inadequate apology couched in the language of a narcissist would be reasonable. This issue here, I think, is twofold: 1) Bash did such an amazing job humanizing Ben and making him seem three-dimensional that people didn't recognize that his character was not actually written to be three-dimensional. The character was written simply to be an example of or a stand-in for abusers of a particular stripe. 2) Because Ben is closeted and harbors internalized homophobia, viewers who have experienced the pain of being forced to remain closeted or having had to work through their own internalized homophobia identify with him when they weren't intended to. They have compassion for Ben's character like they would have compassion for themselves or for other queer people they know in real life, and so they are distressed by Charlie's response because they feel like it would have been devastating to themselves to hear if that had been their story. That's where I get distressed - people are arguing ferociously all over comments sections everywhere about the proper way Charlie should have reacted to the apology, and to the people who think Charlie should have offered forgiveness, it FEELS personal. Not only Charlie's reaction, but the reactions of all of the people who celebrated Charlie's response and defended it, feel like a slap in the face to people who have chosen to see themselves in Ben. My only answer to that is to remind people that they are NOT Ben, and that unlike him, they DO deserve redemption if they wish to pursue it in earnest. They are not entitled to forgiveness from those whom they have wronged in the past, but they are entitled to support from the queer community on their path to become more self-aware, more authentic, and more whole. That's the message I hope everyone takes away from this particular apology - that if you DO step toward the rainbow path, you can have a place in the queer community once you open your heart to it, even if it's only safe for you to do it in your head.
When you say "Ostensibly, it would make sense that rejecting his superficial and inadequate apology couched in the language of a narcissist would be reasonable," is this something that viewers* would intuitively feel or would they actually "intellectually" know things like what the "language of a narcissist" etc. looks like? (I'm not trying to argue with any of your points, I'm just trying to gain more knowledge and it seems to me like you are happy to share yours when asked (?) ) *disregarding for a second the viewers that identify closely with Ben
@@snoopy_J I think some viewers would feel it intuitively, but others would know it intellectually from having had to deal with narcissists before. So basically both 😉 In all seriousness, I think that a lot of people would feel like the apology deserves to be rejected because it doesn't pass the sniff test without any need to label Ben. It looks like an apology, but it doesn't contain the essence of an apology that shows genuine remorse for wrongdoing, an understanding of what that wrongdoing was, and a believable commitment to change. Here Ben expresses regret for losing his relationship with Charlie and says, "I'm a messed up person" and "I know was a piece of shit," but he doesn't get specific about how his messed-upness ended up messing up Charlie. That leads one to conclude that either he doesn't actually have the awareness to understand it or that he doesn't think it's worth bothering to mention because it's just part of a manipulation tactic. The majority of people would pick up on the fact that the apology was flawed without identifying or deconstructing the narcissistic language itself. For people who are conversant in the language of narcissists, it's usually because they've been to therapy and had a professional explain it to them or because social media has made them aware through pop psychology articles (characteristics of narcissists seems to be a popular topic for listicles). These people would be particularly sensitized to Ben phrasing everything in relation to himself - "I'm a messed up person," "my parents would never understand," "I wanted something good," "I want what you two have," and "I really liked you." Although narcissists are capable of empathy, it's their first instinct to look at everything through the lens of how it affects them instead of acknowledging on how the other person is affected. Instead of "I realize that my behavior hurt you" or "you look like you're really happy now," they use the ME! ME! ME! language of a toddler. Another hallmark of a narcissist is the urge to manipulate others, particularly through denying facts and inventing falsehoods with stunning conviction, which he has done regularly prior to this. Pushing to speak with Charlie to point of stalking him is also an indicator, because Ben's need to talk to Charlie is the primary concern to Ben, irrespective of whatever Charlie might want. I hope that answers your question. If it didn't - feel free to ask follow ups to clarify. I am not offended, either by your desire to understand my position more clearly or by any inclination you might have to debate it. If you have other interpretations, I welcome them! Of course, I was raised in a house where "to argue" was a virtue. I was taught that back and forth was helpful to getting at the heart of things, and that truth often lies in between two positions and is only revealed through debate. Sometimes that gets me into trouble on the internet when I'm commenting with people who are conflict avoidant or interpret my alternative take as a criticism. I try not to do that with other people - it makes me happier to give them the benefit of the doubt 🙂
Isaac's overalls in this episode reminded me how much I love overalls. And since I somehow didn't own any overalls, I specifically went out and bought myself a pair of overalls. Thanks Isaac! 💜
I think Elle's painting is also inspired by Tao's paining that she saw in the art room at the end of season 1. He had the tree on the left and the four of them lined up under it. Of course the Louvre painting gave her the idea
As an aroace person isaacs story was so important to me, I do agree though the scene after isaac snaps at everyone was so abrupt, it just felt really strange? I don’t know if they had something filmed or maybe didn’t realise, but I think because no one has been noticing that Isaac has been struggling so much the entire season, that would’ve been the perfect opportunity to have a scene where someone checks your on him. Especially since the group usually seems really observant. Of course they are all going through their own issues, but after isaac reacting that way which is out of character for him, you’d think they’d show a moment where Charlie, Tao and Elle try to talk to him or at least one of them because they’re great friends even if isaac doesn’t open up yet. I feel like that could’ve added even more weight to Elle showing her painting of the 4 of them afterwards tbh, if they had a scene of the 4 of them together like that again. I hope on the next season we have more with this and it’s not the end of his story, it is very isolating but he’s been so alone this whole time and even though it’s nice that he found relief with Alex the artist and his books, it would just be nice to see him talk to his friends. I did really like the scene at prom though when they told him to take a photo and he didn’t want to do it alone since everyone else were going as couples and they took a friendship photo with him, that kind of is a snippet of the moment I wanted to see after the scene where Isaac tells them off.
I adore Isaac as much as the next person, but to be honest, it’s not like he communicated anything to anybody about how he was struggling. And yes, I do understand that people could’ve maybe noticed a little better but communication is key as we see with Nick and Charlie. 💙💛
Can I just say how many times Ben has contradicted himself. In the first season on episode 8 when Charlie just walks past him to do the race, Ben was like are you possessed with me or something. THEN, in season 2 not only is Ben wanting Charlie, but also somehow found out here Charlie was to confront him?!?! This is just one of many occasions. Also Imogen points out how obsessed Ben is towards Charlie
I don't give Ben the same grace that you do because I don't think he actually understood what he had done wrong to Charlie when he first apologized. That was clear when Charlie asked him about the first time he kissed him and Ben remembered it fondly, while it was a source of trauma for Charlie. Maybe now that he does understand that because of what Charlie told him, he might actually be able to change for the better, but his initial apology was hollow without him actually understanding what it is that he's done wrong.
Yes also his apology includes telling Charlie how much of a victim he is and how he needed Charlie without realising how he victimised Charlie. An apology shouldn't include excuses - though in a different conversation he could have spoken with Charlie about how messed up he is/going through something and having homophobic parents. In this moment the apology should have been for specific things he did to Charlie - some introspection helping him realise how much he hurt Charlie and was sorry for it. There's none of that here.
Brilliant reaction video. I notice how neatly Nick and Ben's stories run in parallel with one showcasing how to be and the other how to mess up. The 1st shots of Charlie walking in anticipating meeting up with Ben..and then he finds he's been stood up... mirror him walking into school after the kiss in the rain...to find Nick waiting, smiling and supportive. Both Ben and Nick want the relationship kept secret, but Ben orders him 'Don't tell anyone about us', while Nick asks 'is it okay...?' And is worried about it. We see Ben not listening to Charlie, kissing him mid-sentence and running off, refusing to come round to hang out, dismissing the idea they are boyfriends. We see Nick getting to know him, acknowledging him, supporting him, amazed Charlie questioned whether they were boyfriends. Both have a flirtation with a girl but where Ben is smooching her outside the gates (to make sure his mates see him with her?) Nick is bounced into agreeing to a date which he then cancels. And when they are upset and lose it- Ben stalks Charlie to unload a load of hate and try to diminish him as much as possible, while Nick loses it by throwing the first punch to defend Charlie. Their dual path affects how they treat others too - Nick is always respectful to Imogen; Ben looks like he asked Imogen out specifically to bother Nick - he largely ignores her or puts her down unless he sees Nick watching them. The symmetry is perfect.
I love that Isaac is coming to terms with his sexuality and honestly, given what he's going through I really admire him for being so supportive to his friends who are head over heels in love. I totally understand him lashing out on the friend group, because the pressure he must be feeling when he sees all of his friends being lovey-dovey all the while struggling with his feelings towards James must be immense for a teenage boy. I mean, I was at a wedding a couple days ago and I was also surrounded by couples everywhere (and it was a destination wedding, so they were "in my face" nonstop) and as a forever alone fundamentally unlikeable person I got so stressed out I got physically sick. Btw I liked our idea of a missing scene regarding someone from the friend group checking up on him, whether it's Charlie who always makes sure everyone's okay, or the (un)licensed therapists Nick and Elle. Maybe an idea for another of your fanfictions? 🙂 And Ben...oh, Ben. In the wise words of a song I Say No from Heathers "Blame your childhood, blame your dad, blame the life you've never had, but hurting people, that's your choice, my friend..." (actually the whole song is quite fitting for this scene) He can blame anyone he wants to for ruining his "relationship" with Charlie, but what he fails to see is that it was never a relationship in the first place, but rather a game with his favorite "toy". First he tells Nick that he "stole Charlie from him" and then says stuff like "I wanted something good. You were something good." Well, yes, exactly, because he treated him like a THING. I mean let me just randomly come, kiss you, brush my lips with a hand and leave, but watch your messages, in case I'd want to do that again. But besides that all he did was belittling Charlie and mocking him for no reason and ultimately assaulting him, which is a step WAY TO FAR, Benjamin, do you even realize you've scarred him for life? I am so glad Charlie mustered the courage to tell him all of that and didn't let him interrupt and I really hope it was enough of a wake up call for him. The other day I've heard that instead of "forgive and forget" it is actually healthier to "remember and recover" which I thing is true, because no one is entitled to be forgiven for the hurt they've caused because even if the other side forgives, there will still be a part of them which will be extra cautious at the minimum. Bottom line, though, I did choke up after the scene, because I love Sebastian Croft, however I do not want to see Ben Hope ever again either and if so, then yeah, I want him to get the hell away from Charlie. But I was thinking, Bash writes very good songs, so maybe one of them will make its way into Heartstopper.
It's funny you mention that about fanfic, because while working on this video, I literally wrote a note to myself that says, "Fic idea - ****** talks to Isaac before Here & Queer to make sure he's okay??" (Name censored for the sake of not spoiling things in case I do end up writing it, though it will probably not come as a surprise regardless. :P)
@@thom_is_trans Ooh, I can't wait to read it :) I actually read a fanfic related to this exact topic yesterday, but I really enjoy your fanfiction, because you understand the characters deeply and it shows.
The Eiffel Tower “book” is a map! We see them holding it in episode 4, and N/C hold it in a promo photo. It’s also in Charlie’s bag! Loved this reaction, glad to see you breaking it up into two parts - there’s a lot to talk about! I definitely agree about the Isaac points with the pacing. We really needed some other scene between the Isaac outburst and the Lambert school opening so that we didn’t have that emotional discontinuity of him suddenly being happy and smiley in the next scene. It wouldn’t even need to be a scene that involved Isaac, just something to indicate time passing (which I think is a few days in-universe). I also think that the Lambert art exhibit scene with Alex the artist just felt too close to the James bookstore/Isaac outburst scenes. It would’ve honestly helped if they’d just moved that moment later in the Lambert sequence, after Elle’s speech and Tao and Elle’s convo maybe. Because in the episode it basically goes: James and Isaac talk - Isaac yells at his friends - they arrive at Lambert - Tao finds out about Lambert - Isaac talks to Alex. There’s only two beats between Isaac’s outburst and the “resolution.” However, if they’d moved the Isaac and Alex scene, then we wouldn’t have had as many beats between Tao finding out about Lambert, and the resolution to that conflict. So it seems like maybe the pacing for the Elle-Tao storyline took precedence in this sequence.
The more I think about it and read others' reactions, the more I feel they really did try to cram a ton into this episode. I think everyone agrees that the Isaac storyline this episode needed more time to breathe - whether that was from reordering scenes (as you suggest) or doing more to indicate the passage of time (as you suggest) or inserting an additional scene as transition (as Thom suggests). I can't pinpoint where it would have been appropriate to pare back elsewhere, but this episode has a lot packed into it and I don't think flows quite as cleanly as other episodes.
I think we also need to look at the books Isaac has been reading. He is reading Summer Bird Blue which has an aroace main character and he bought Loveless in Paris - so he may have an inkling of what is going on but it's not enough like what he is actually experiencing.
That fly scene was hilarious. Thank you for leaving it in, lol. I usually take spiders outside. Other bugs I usually just kill. I've seen some complain that there's not more about her being trans, or Tara being black, etc. Like if you have minorities then that has to be addressed or it's just tokenism. But why? Why can't their story be something else? It's a short series and Nick and Charlie are the leads so the others get limited time. And Alice has other things in mind to tell about them. The trans stuff is touched on here and there but it doesn't have to be the focus. Tao was around for it so he knows what he's getting into. So any possible issues with that are between them. No, Elle did not think that through, heh. Agreed about the exhibits, Elle's and the Ace one. It's convient, and being right after the James thing is probably what really does it, but given where they are it makes sense he'd find an Ace exhibit. Somebody who can finally give him the words he's been looking for all this time. I think Tao has a right to be annoyed that she didn't just tell him. But also that it's not a big deal. Tao has grown so much this season. Love to see it. The whole failed date part in episode 3 I still probably could have done without, but oh well, we got there in the end. I know it's meant for more contrast but still. Yeah, I hope Ben can take what Charlie said to heart and finally change. That idea about a cameo near the end showing some progress, without interacting with Charlie, would be something. Doubt it would happen but it could work. Can't wait to hear all those thoughts about the dinner and Nick's messy family. And I would totally watch that hour long video about the final scene, hehe.
Splitting up the episode was the perfect decision. And you were able to stop when you started feeling tired. Yay, go you! ☺ 100 % spotted the Floklore poster in Tara's room. 👀I saw that Patrick Walters had kept it for himself after the shoot. Now I want one for my apartment. The fly rescue might be the most precious thing I've ever seen. 🥺Darla is an impressive huntress. She's so full of personality. I love her. The reaction Tao's mom had to Elle and Tao getting together makes Charlie's parents' reaction to the same news even more sad and disappointing. This is how a parent should react to their kid telling them a happy news... Not with incredulity, indifference and opposition. Sigh... 😒 Charlie is so real for playing Toad in Mariokart. Toad IS the superior character, always. ✌ I know I've commented this before, but I didn't get why Ben was even present in season two at first. A few rewatches made me realize the role he played in both Nick's and Charlie's journeys this season. Ultimately, the attempted apology scene was really important and really well done. Charlie's reply is perfect. It's exactly what he needed to say and it's exactly what Ben (and the audience) needed to hear. It's an all-around very satisfying conclusion to this arc. I really hope that Nick, after hearing all of it, got to have a proper conversation with Charlie about how he felt and if he was okay (similarly to what Charlie does with him after the fight with his father over dinner). The rainbow wave was the perfect visual. Ben wasn't ready to walk toward the path of self-acceptance. Even if people going through similar experiences would have welcomed him with open arms. Even if there was an entire community by his side to help him through his journey. I think it was a very powerful way to show it. I'm so happy we won't have to see his character ever again, even if he ended up being an interesting one. Please let Charlie be free of his tormentor! Thank you for sharing your story with your abusive ex. I'm sorry you had to go through that and still do, and I hope you never have to see or hear a thing about him ever again. LOVED the reaction. ❤ I can't wait to see part 2 with the dinner party. Don't forget to take your time ☺
About 8 years ago, I had an abusive boyfriend, it was bad. I still haven't dated since the breakup, in part because of the PTSD. For the sake of other women, I really hope he becomes a better person (Though he is A LOT older than Ben, and his abuse was for more complicated reasons so doubt he will.). However, I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER want to talk to him EVER again. (I actually semi-ghosted him after our final fight, which is so NOT me, but I just couldn't deal with him anymore) . I barely let his best friend/maybe mistress apologize when she randomly came up to me in a restaurant when I was having a work meeting a few years later and just apologized. (Luckily my colleague knew the story since I believe strongly in not hiding that dark time in my life but his friend didn't know that.) Charlie was being gracious in letting Ben speak, but I am glad he was able to express his anger. I have also wondered what Nick might be feeling. It is great, that he let Charlie do what he needed to do, but I am sure, he was pretty devastated by hearing Charlie talking about how he now second-guesses when good stuff happens to him, and whether he "deserves" good things to happen to him. Oh, and of course all the hugs for your abuse. I am glad your abuser seemed to have realized he was in the wrong, but also I never didn't know how to be decent to my partners.
Thank you for sharing your experience, and I'm so sorry that happened to you. I hope you have gotten the support you need to heal in earnest. It sounds like it was a really formative experience, and you deserve to be able to take back your own agency and not let the shadow of your abuser's behavior drain the color from your future. Here's a big Nick Nelson hug for you, from across the miles!
This song by Baby Queen quickly became my favorite. It's an absolute bop, and it's the essence of the philosophy of Absurdism brilliantly condensed into an insanely catchy pop song! No one needs to read Camus's take on the Myth of Sisyphus to get the benefit of his worldview - Baby Queen makes it accessible and lyrical all at the same time. In honor of Baby Queen, though, I do think we should see something from Camus on Isaac's reading list for Season 3 - The Stranger, perhaps. After all, an aroace person navigating finding joy in a life where romantic and erotic love do not serve as pillars for happiness will need some inspiration about how to buttress his life with other types of meaning. This song also gives me hope that Baby Queen has had a personal breakthrough. "I was crying at a party, which was not unusual of me," is a callback to "Buzzkill." Based on that song in particular, and the larger catalog of songs admitting to obsessive thoughts and anti-social behavior, she needs therapy and BETTER FRIENDS. I want to give her a big hug and tell her that if she were crying at my party, I'd sit down with her to talk instead of telling her that she was a "killjoy" that needed to "shut up." I hope her time with the Heartstopper crew has helped her heal a little!
Somehow I always thought that the time when she wrote Buzzkill was far behind her. But I don't remember if she actually said that in Interviews or if I just chose to believe it in order to enjoy the song.
If Ben is going to apologize properly,he NEEDS to EXPLAIN WHY HE DID THOSE THINGS TO CHARLIE. He can’t just say he really liked Charlie that it made him do those things. I’m pretty sure back in S1 when Ben kept on saying no one is ever desperate to go out with someone like Charlie but Ben made it seem like he only said that because Ben probably wanted Charlie for himself that he needed to make sure Charlie wasn’t taken the minute Ben saw him & Nick holding hands. He was very much jealous and DEFINITELY STILL LIKED HIM,why else would he follow Charlie outside of the cinema which was a bit creepy (Bully episode)? No one would do that unless they still have feelings for their ex. For Ben to tell Nick “Stop acting so gay for him (Charlie)” when he’s needs to TELL HIMSELF THAT (Ben only said that because he was jealous obviously). Since during the moments of Paris,you could see how much Ben like to stare at Charlie (Especially when Ben sat next to Charlie) even when Charlie was with Nick or his friends. And don’t forget how Ben stares at Nick & Charlie’s moment when Charlie was giving him a pen during EXAM study week. Ben needs to stop blaming Nick for “stealing Charlie from him” when actually Nick SAVED Charlie. Because was it before or after Ben tried to assault Charlie when Charlie tried to break up with him? And plus Ben wasn’t even dating Charlie anymore making Charlie single when Charlie started to have a relationship with Nick. It was SO ADORABLE how Nick & Charlie started off as a friendship but they were so close and both had romantic feelings for each other that it turned into a relationship. It was Ben’s fault he lost Charlie. Which made Ben realize that Charlie is actually a great catch,he lost (Literally any guy would be so lucky to date Charlie). I mean Ben could of still have Charlie if Ben didn’t mistreat him so badly. And plus Ben DIDN’T WANT TO LABEL THEM as “Boyfriends” when they were still together and now Ben wants to be Charlie’s boyfriend right when Nick already taken that role?
Hi, If I may say: your Reactions/ Analyses of these Heartstopper episodes are an amazing experience to watch, absorb, reflect on! Your insights are unique and beautifully articulated. I could listen to you discuss and deconstruct for forever. (The fact that you did Not edit out the fly incident is both hilarious 😆 and makes us adore you even more!) I think for many of us there is the Heartstopper experience that Alice Oseman gives us, the gorgeously collaborative one that Alice AND Euros Lyn, Joe and Kit and Yasmin, Will, Tobie, Corinna, Kizzy, Rhea and, of course, Bash give us along with every perfect note that every actor and creative realizes here and, lastly, there is this gorgeous engagement that we get to share in responding and resonating to all that is Heartstopper in each of our tiny personal universes. The power of art, right? Here where it's okay to "just feel" or to understand something nearly inexpressible but nevertheless real. That artistic power was really in the foreground this season but especially in this episode as many of our beloved living characters moved along their journeys compelled in some way by the art of Elle. Culminating in Isaac's beautifully realized epiphany. I thought that I could not be more moved, overtaken, obliterated by the scene with Charlie (and Nick) and Ben. And then came you. What more can I say? Thank you So much for sharing your experiences too. (Here's hoping that every time you share, there is a share of healing returned your way.) Your reactions remind us powerfully why this kind of representation has more value than we can name, individually or collectively. ... And that every conversation about and revisiting of these episodes and stories helps us discover their beauties and gifts more and more. This entire season has built upon the sweet, truthful and gentle foundation of Heartstopper season one but added are shades and layers that are less idyllic yet equally hopeful and revealing the strength needed to approach life in ways that could lead us to be our own "better angels". A million thanks for you and for all that you do Thom is Trans! ❤🩹, k
*Sees Part 1* Oh Thom no, you poor boy XD Im glad you're making it at least more palpable to edit at the very least breaking it up. Hopefully I as well shall be able to condense my thoughts enough to not get yelled at by RUclips again lol Nick releasing his photoroll of Charlie and everyone at Truham being like "Ah, they were roommates." And as an anxious lad myself who has never blocked anyone who triggers me I kind of feel for Charlie. I dont know if it's that people pleaser or hate of confrontation but Blocking someone never felt right. And for some specific people i've cut off I decided out of spite not to block them because i've rationalized that if i block them it tells them I still care. It's very warped reasoning but eh lol Obviously for plot reasons it makes sense but Charlie does feel like the type to just ignore his bullies instead of block them (which mood) cause we do that IRL. We just let them say their piece, nod along without really acknowledging and move on. On a side note, thank you for the Fly Escapades. My cat does the same though i'm a lot less forgiving XD My dog is afraid of flies so we usually let my cat just kill them to save my dog's anxiety. Ever since I saw someone point out in season one about how Tao's mom treats Elle like the girl she is, I've noticed how super inclusive she is of Elle. It's so wholesome to see how someone respectful who is just happy for her son and his long time crush becoming a relationship. I also LOVE how Sarah's desmissal of her son just escalates after the last scene with him being a "homophobic prick". It's a pretty decent way to subtly show Sarah's own growth of for one being more openly supprtive of NIck and also realizing that David is being an asshole. She went from "We're all happy you're home David." to "Do you have a girlfriend David? (NO? Didn't think so, so shush)". God I cannot wait for the Manorca Holiday :) It's gonna be great acting for all three of them and it will destroy all of us. Tao has some great growth in these final episodes and it's so nice to see him conquer his impulsive thoughts cause he has been controlled by them up to now. Tao acts so much on emotional impulse and while in some scenarios it can be good it is also a good idea to hold back your impulse and consider everything fully. It is very complex dealing with everyone's relationship with Issac/James. Like you pointed out everyone just wants Issac to be as happy as them and as you even touch on with the person at teh exhibit. We live in a world where relationships and such are held in such high regard. It's the norm so no one really questions the alternative because Issac does really like James as a friend and James' feelings for Issac bleed into everyone else's perceptions. I'm so excited to see Issac's growth delved into more next season. I've also seen a ton of people compare Nick asking Charlie to Prom to the scene where Charlie asks Nick to go on a solo date at the smoothie stand. They both so adorably inquire about something they can do together but then get self-concious before the other says they'd love to. It's so cute how awkward they are with each other even when they know the other person would say yes. And everyone pooling in to buy Darcy's suit is one of the best things ever. I adore how supportive the group is for her even not knowing her home situation. Like they just genuinely want to support Darcy BEING Darcy, which of course comes up later. OK SO you mentioned how Issac didn't have a book when meeting James and it sparked something in my brain so I literally just went to Netflix and scrolled through the Paris trip. Majority of the time Issac is with James he isn't reading. When he's with James in the Library he's helping set up the bookstand, and as you can see Issac with everyone else is usually reading while walking and talking, but with James Issac usually has his finger bookmark the page and gives James his full attention. Which he does seem to do when he's having fun with the group as well taking pictures or walking with them on the bridge (Or later after prom). But it's always next to James that Issac seems to put his book on hold to give more attention. I might be looking into this WAY too deeply but it is a nice touch if intentional to show that Issac does really enjoy James' company even as great friends. I'm also pretty sure i mentioned this recently as well, I also wish they delved more into Issac's reaction after that scene cause it feels a little crazy that no one checks up on Issac between these scenes. So hopefully there is a scene in Season 3 where Issac does talk to at least a couple of them about how he's doing. The Ben confrontation scene is so amazingly done. I do think hearing that Ben will be leaving is a big part of Charlie accepting that he can let his past with Ben go after this. And i saw someone on Tiktok zoom in on their hands and you see it takes Nick a second to let go. I dont know if it's intentional but it is pretty in character that Nick would be subconciously unwilling to let Charlie walk to Ben alone. Ben comes out with a lot of Self Revelation while also still being very dilusional to the point it makes sense he still walks away from his queerness. Sebastian does an amazing job showing Ben's emotions throughout, especially with the First Kiss comment. You can see how Ben's memories with Charlie are painted in a happy lens before Charlie takes off those glasses and says EXACTLY how his actions messed up Charlie for a long time. Ben knows that Charlie is an amazing person, the one good thing in his life, but doesn't realize that Nick and Charlie work because they are both good things in each other lives. Ben never understood the balance it takes and he's a great foil to Darcy as we've mentioned before. Darcy embraces his life outside her parent's gaze while Ben carries his cage everywhere he goes and allows it to ruin him. I also connect this back to Ben's conversations with Nick and specifically the part where he accuses Nick of poisoning Charlie's view of Ben. I think this moment also shows the moment where Ben realizes that Nick never did anything and Charlie's hate of Ben was entirely his own because those moments wouldn't be something Nick was privvy to and that emotion was something Charlie had already. I've also had those friendships where I do wish I could have that moment of "I'm glad you realize you're horrible and want to get better. And I hope you do. But I want no part of it in my life after everything you've done." There's a big stigma of forgiving people who ruin your life, even more so family, but there is nothing wrong with wishing the best for someone while also never wanting them in your life. I have had friends that have ruined aspects of my personality and affected how i see things, and while I have grown from that and learned a lot about myself from retospection I am downright afraid of those people trying to re-enter my life but I now have the strength and support like Charlie does to stand my ground and say I will never forgive you and I want you to live your life happily without me. Part 2 gonna be HYPE, can't wait for dinner lol
Thanks for sharing all your thoughts. I LOVE the idea that Isaac and James connect on a level that is compelling enough that Isaac doesn't even expect to read when they're talking, that he just wants to give him his full attention. That really underscores how special their friendship is. Also, congrats on doing the hard work of dealing with the fallout of toxic people and moving forward. Sorry that happened, but working through that kind of experience promotes growth and resilience in a way that's hard to encapsulate.
Yeah it really adds to their relationship! And thanks, it happens but it def makes me appreciate my real friends more and grow as a person in different ways
Also, I think it is totally fine for Tao to express his feelings about Elle going to Lambert, AS LONG AS he makes it clear that it doesn't mean she shouldn't go, or that he would want her to forgo her dream for her. I think a talk like he had with Nick in Episode 8, may also be in order with Elle. She probably knows his dad died, but just to discuss it a bit more with her. (Also, so Elle can reassure Tao, that even if she is going to a semi-faraway school, she still is committed to them.). On another note, not sure how "far away" it can be, if Ben can easily get there, lol.
I think I heard somewhere that it is meant to be in London proper. The Kent area is about an hour outside of London (by train), plus whatever extra time for transit through London to whichever quadrant Lambert happens to occupy. It's super-creepy that Ben followed Charlie there, and I believe that part of the reason Charlie was so vehement in his delivery of his rebuff is because he was so freaked by being stalked.
I think Elle reassured Tao about being committed to them/their friendship group through her art piece. That art room and those relationships in that room are solid forever because of his much the place and the people supported her through a tough time. New friends and a new environment won't take that away for her.
Wonderful format! I think where you chose to split works really thematically for the episode as well. It's such a jam packed episode, so cutting it here makes a lot of sense. Regarding Nick's invitation, I think there's also a parallel to Charlie asking for a solo date with Nick during the milkshake triple date, and Charlie immediately undermining it. It's lovely to see examples of role reversals across both seasons. I also agree with your analysis of Ben's apology. It think it was sincere, but was focused on his own state of mind and desires. He acknowledges that what he did was wrong, but does not even guess at how his behaviour may have made Charlie feel, or impacted his self esteem. Even a cursory "you deserved better" would have gone a lot further. Ben does say that Charlie was "something good," but again, it was in reference for Ben's desire for something good. He wanted to possess something good in Charlie. It's a start, though. Big love and solidarity to your experiences, Thom. ❤
Thom, when Nick and Charlie set in the coffee shop with Nick’s dad, his dad scratched his right ear. In couple of seconds his phone was ringing……. A younger man with ,I think yellow shirt was sitting couple table behind him was calling, I believe, Nick’s dad…….. I’m sorry about it cause we love Nick and Charlie
Wonderful reaction commentary, as usual, Thom, and I love that we're getting two parts for E7. As usual, you bring out thoughts I had in the back of my mind and explain motivations and that is so helpful. I'm glad you specifically brought up about the jarring cut between the scenes with an upset Isaac to a happy Isaac. I do give Alice and Euros a lot of leeway for creative license in the show and having to be able to find a way to cram so much in to a short span of time. But in terms of this jarring cut, I do not give them any slack at all. This is such an important storyline, and this was like THE important moment for Isaac AND for Tobey as an actor - and that jarring cut diminished it exponentially. We all were experiencing an emotional moment when Isaac excoriates his friends - i feel it was wholly appropriate and showcased Tobey's acting skills at their finest - but we needed a minute to allow us to continue feeling and appreciating that, and skipping to Isaac in a happy glow was just wrong. I agree, there needed to be one more scene, anything, just to let us fully drain ourselves from the emotion of Isaac's outburst. Yes, Charlie having a conversation with Isaac about that would have been good - he's already done so with Tao and with Tara, and Isaac definitely deserved that too. But, you know what? What about a quick scene between Isaac and his mother? Everyone else got to do one with their parent! This could have started with Isaac being upset and his mother helping him through it. Isaac ain't in the comics, so this couod have been written fresh by Alice. But even just some other transitional scene would have been helpful. It probably would have taken some creative juggling, but nothing is impossible. (And, btw, did you see Joe's interview in Hunger magazine online where he, shockingly, put down the execs at Netflix for actually not giving them the full budget they needed?). I wonder if there actually was some big heated conversation between Alice, Euros, the editor, the Netflix execs, etc. over this cut. 🤔
I agree about it being a shame there is no Olly in the dramatisation as I think part of the dynamic from the books I really liked was how much Olly loved Nick and Nick loved Olly, almost like a reflection of what is going on between Charlie and Nellie
I have watched or am currently watching roughly 40 different reactors (I literally am only interested in HS reactions.) You, sir, are by far my favorite ❤ I really enjoy your perceptive, detailed, and nuanced deep dives into the Osemanverse. I'm so thankful you love the show as much as we do!
Thom, I think this is your best (among many great) reaction videos. Your commentary on the program, particularly regarding Ben and your openness about your own similar experiences was wonderful. And the fly drama that you kept in (and even titled) is just amazing.
I enjoyed Loveless in the background of Isaac's bookstore scene. That is the first book in my life I have legitimately wished I could read again "for the first time." It's so beautiful. Also while the timing might seem convenient for Isaac learning about Aroace...how does anyone learn about it? I learned about asexuality on tiktok then spent months going through every forum, article, video, and even the Ace book that Isaac has at the end learning about the topic to realize that was me. And as you said, Isaac has been on this journey for a while, so he's been asking friends, reading queer books, sharing experiences, etc. I think it was just the word he needed to start exploring.
24:04 I also think the addition of a story consultant this season might be the reason more things feel "convenient" and a bit unlike how Alice writes. I like the pacing and how much they fit into each episode, and I understand they needed a pro to help achieve that, but sometimes that leaves us confused when characters act unOseman-like or situations have a different timbre to them.
Hooray for more videos! This is such a jam packed episode, I can't believe that's only half of it. I do find it a bit weird that Nick thinks inviting Charlie and his whole family to a coming out dinner party is a good idea given that he knows food and stress are a bad combo for Charlie! I think it makes more sense where it sits in the graphic novels, but I can see why they brought it into this season. It does make me wonder how much of Charlie's behaviour Tori is aware of at this point. I think she might suspect more than she lets on. The Elle art unveiling made absolutely no sense to me - I mean there are plot holes all over Heartstopper if you look too closely so I prefer not to! But it would have been really easy for her to have won some sort of competition or scholarship to explain why she gets special treatment. Looking forward to part 2 when you are ready!
As wonderful and attentive as Nick is, I’m not sure he’s quite that attuned to the intricacies of Charlie’s ED at this point in the story. I could also see Nick naively hoping that with Paris and their coming out (basically) behind them, all is well with Charlie again… until the confrontation with Ben in this episode, and then the realization that Charlie’s still not eating properly.
@@normaladjacent Yes, you are quite right. And actually I think that's really typical of how people react to ED, culturally we are so used to putting food at the centre of big moments in our lives, people can be blind to how torturous that is for some people. It's really telling how 1) Charlie also, when talking to Tori, doesn't seem bothered by the invite. I think he is trying to convince himself it's in the past, and 2) It's Nick's mum who notices, not Charlie's. I can imagine 'Charlie doesn't have much of an appetite' is a phrase the family use without thinking much of it.
Great job on the video as always!! You got me thinking about so much... I have a theory on why Ben wasn't blocked... which is that Nick and Charlie wants him to see that they are happy. I think the friend group saw his facial expressions but they couldn't put two and two. I love how Sarah just ignores David, which shows how she doesn't let David control her emotions as she knows David way too well. Can't wait for the next video. I knew that prom wasn't going to be successful since Darcy is having that kind of mother who doesn't want her to become that person even though she already made that decision herself as she was her proper self at school
I agree with you on the Ben issue. I wonder if, as part of therapy, Charlie will write a more detailed letter to Ben and what reading that letter would do to Ben.
26:51 I think it's very convenient for the viewer to have this moment, not Isaac. I feel like they wanted to make sure the young viewers and the uninformed/unfamiliar viewers had some explanatory exposition. It did feel a bit clunky to me to have this bit here, but I know why they did it.
I agree - I've seen some reactors who had no idea about aspec and couldn't understand any of Isaac's actions even up until the talk at the art exhibit. In fact, I love how in your face the Ace book and it's subtitle in episode 8 is. That and the leaves around Isaac when he picks up the book. For some rectors that's the only point that they realise that Isaac may have a different sexuality and even what that is. As clunky as it is for us, I think it had to be wikihow spelt out to the viewers.
I would argue that the comments by Isaac's friends are not just ignorant, they're incredibly insensitive. They don't know what's going on with him, but that's the point. Sure, he happens to be going through the painful experience of trying to figure out his sexuality and his lack of attraction to James, but that's not the only reason he could be in distress. It could be that he liked James and found out that James didn't like him back. It could be that James and he were hanging out having a nice time and a homophobe made some assumptions about their appearance and interrupted their conversation with some upsetting words. It could be that he and James found out that they had fundamentally incompatible views on the world that caused their friendship to dissolve completely. The point is that, aside from Elle, everyone else made assumptions about what was supposed to happen at that meeting with James with NO basis for assuming something was going to advance their romantic storyline (sure, let's have our first kiss in a crowded bookstore, shall we?). They missed his distress, which could have arisen from any number of scenarios, and instead imposed their own narrative about what should have happened based on their own personal agendas. Heaven help Isaac if James had persisted in making unwelcome advances and ended up assaulting him - I couldn't even guess how Isaac would have reacted if he had come back to the group with that experience and been met with THAT oblivious reaction. The fact that they aren't tuned in is what's most hurtful here - Isaac has been quietly supportive to all of them, and here people are so invested in creating their own ideas of what Isaac's happiness should hold that they don't bother checking with Isaac first to see what's actually going on with him. I agree that Isaac probably needed some alone time to process what happened without having to answer questions from or worry about one of his other friends, but boy do they ALL owe him an apology. If it had been me, I would not have appreciated someone pursuing me down the street after my blow up - I would have expected them to respect my request for space - but I certainly would have appreciated a check-in text or a virtual hug from the group chat. I, too, would like to assume that someone reached out to him and made things right before Elle's big night, and that Nick Nelson hug and his escorting Elle into the exhibition was the culmination of them working things out.
The thing is with Ben, I feel like even if he was able to accept himself after this, if he worked on his behavior, came out, and finally found love and worked his way into having a happy ending for himself where he's no longer a dick and living a good life, he'd still be in danger of losing everything if his past behavior toward Charlie was exposed. It wouldn't matter if Ben was remorseful or took accountability because I doubt anyone would want to be associated with someone who's guilty of the things he did
It probably depends on the kind of people he finds in his life + his relationships with them. There are a lot of people who will excuse that kind of behavior, either because they love and trust the person a lot and truly believe that they’ve changed, or alternatively because they themselves don’t believe those things are that terrible or have even done things like that themselves. The former I think is human nature - the latter is just an unfortunate reality. For every person that’s been a Charlie (and there are a lot of us), there is a Ben or a reformed Ben out there. So I kind of don’t agree he’d be in danger of “losing everything”, because I think that people are inclined to forgive people like Ben. And the system is designed to protect him. It’s rare for emotional abusers and people who commit the type of sexual assault Ben did to face any substantial level of accountability - especially if it happened when he was a teenager (“boys will be boys”). Which is why I think Charlie’s speech to him was really important. Losing Charlie and not ever being forgiven by him is probably the worst consequence he would reasonably face.
Ben gets no credit for anything. He chose to say the things he said because he thought it's what would work to get Charlie to forgive him so he can forget he was ever such a dick, instead of actually learning how not to be a dick, so he''ll probably continue to be a dick wherever he ends up next. (Funny, it's canon that Ben moves from Truham to Higgs right across the street, and they most certainly do see him again, in Solitaire. But I guess in the TV show canon, he's going somewhere farther away.) Charlie smelled the insincerity on him, and as you said, he saw how Ben still has his own whitewashed version of what happened in his head.
Hi Thom, be careful what you wish for. 🙂 You said that you are okay with Heartstopper themed essays so here is mine. I am at a kids birthday party and I don't know the people here. I didn't want to take out my kindle and read in front of all the parents so I decided to write an essay on my phone instead. I'm a terrible writer and I'm not a native English speaker so I hope I will be able to get my point across. My opinions about Ben. First of all, I want to say that I hate Ben for assaulting Charlie (who is my most beloved character, of course Nick is a close second), gaslighting him, completely ignoring his feelings and being a self absorbed narcissistic prick. But I also find him to be quite an interesting character. I don't want to make excuses for Ben, but he really was taken by surprise, when Charlie broke up with him. For him it was out of the blue. He was "dating" Charlie for almost 6 month and didn't see any reason for them to end things. Charlie rarely demanded anything from him and we know that Charlie didn't complain about Ben's behavior. Furthermore Ben apologized for ignoring him in public. I think that he may have had a girlfriend for the whole duration of their relationship and he didn't see any problem with that. He was kissing her in front of the school, where everyone was able to see him, so he wasn't afraid of Charlie catching him with her. The only reason for the breakup he could see, was the fear of getting caught. But he was obviously projecting. He thought that everything was as usual in their relationship. When he wanted to meet up, Charlie always came without hesitation. The breakup must have been a shock. When Charlie agreed to meet up with him after rugby practice he honestly thought that he was gonna change Charlie's mind without too much trouble. And when it didn't work as he imagined, he became desperate and thought that he needed to persuade him by any means necessary. He was not thinking rationally and forced himself upon Charlie. I would have liked it if Nick or maybe Charlie had beaten him up. After that he continued to behave like an asshole who thought that what he did wasn't abominable. He even kept trying to punish Charlie for the breakup by undermining his confidence and self esteem while still thinking he could get back with him. Furthermore, I would like to discuss my thoughts about Ben's sexuality. I honestly think that Ben is bisexual, however at first I thought he was gay. In the beginning of his relationship with Charlie he already knew he liked boys, because he was the one who approached Charlie, initiated their relationship and kissed him without hesitation and without actual consent. That makes me think that Ben may have already had some experience with a boy before Charlie. I think that if he were gay he would have figured it out after 6 month of dating Charlie. But by being bisexual he still couldn't decide who he really liked. It seems to me that he liked having a girlfriend and kissing a boy at the same time. I understand that he could have dated girls only to hide his attraction to boys, but what unequivocally made me believe he was bisexual was his answer to Nick's question about him liking Imogen. I think he didn't lie. He could have said that he liked Imogen, but instead he said that he was allowed to like girls as well as boys. He just didn't like Imogen and was dating her, only because she pursued him and because he knew that it would irritate Nick. In the end, I am happy that Charlie won't have to deal with Ben in the third season, but I would like to see Ben going to therapy, moving away from his homophobic parents and living with his lesbian aunt and helping LGBTQIA+ kids. That would give me closure and Ben his redemption arc. At least a little bit 🙂 Sorry for rambling, but the party took three hours.
Look at that scene with Tara Darcy Imogen and Sahar and you can see a silhouette of Tara and Darcy of them at Harry’s party in the background. Another reactor pointed it out and I find it very interesting Easter egg from season 1.
PTSD is a bitch. I've had it with regards to a primary school bully. And it got triggered by the stress of the final leg of my degree and a very lovely fellow student I met with the same first name. I was having flashback and certain unwanted violent thought towards the former bully, even though I hadn't seen her for like a solid 10 years. I knew then I needed help, but I wanted to finish first, which I did. After I graduated I went to a paychologist and had EMDR. Worked like a charm, I don't have those symptoms anymore. She leaves me completely cold. Maybe in the future an idea for you Tom? I will warn you, it was very emotionaly draining, it also exposed other trauma which we dealt with after the bully and in that time I was very introspective about my reactions to certain triggers. Don't pull the wire on the sweater unless you know very surely that you are ready for a chilly day with no sweater😂
First, thanks as always for your efforts. On the Ben apology. I think he has a long way to go yet. Earlier in the season he tells Nick he apologised to Charlie, ( when we know he just asked if Charlie 'had finished sulking yet'). This apology has elements I think he truly believes but he is still so far off beam he really needs help but Charlie is in no way the one that can/should give it to him. Charlie speaks his truth and I hope there is some catharsis for him, indeed I hope there is some catharsis for Ben but I think he still has a lot of emotional development ahead and one can only hope he doesn't hurt anyone else. However, even with the glance at his parents we got I could see Ben becoming a Conservative MP who gets exposed in some sort 'Gay scandal' doing press conferences with a wife who swears to stick by him. On a different note I don't know if you keep up with the webtoon but it makes me feel so seen. I come from very near where Alice comes from and went to a Boys Grammar School and today, ( in the webtoon), Nick went to visit Leeds University, ( great drawings by Alice of Leeds Uni and Leeds Market), which I went to, ( I actually went following a crush who went the year before, and wasn't really crushing on them anymore when I got there.) However I had a great time and still live in Leeds. I hope Charlie follows Nick, ( we Know from Nick and Charlie that Nick goes but we don't know if Charlie follows but I like to think so.)......................Please excuse my ramblings but I don't really have anyone to share my Heartstopper fanning with!
idk if you want spoilers for the post-comic future of Nick and Charlie (ignore the rest of this comment if not) but on your last point... . . . Alice has said that Charlie does not follow Nick to Leeds and ends up at UCL, which probably suits him better. They of course stay together though!
I hadn't seen that anywhere and in a way I hope she has a change of heart on that as it may be the most unrealistic thing she has written for them. I say this because that would take an enormous amount of character growth from Charlie given that within a year he goes from actually breaking up with Nick for the horrible two weeks in Nick and Charlie over the long distance to deciding they can do long distance for 3 years when they don't have to. I know I followed a crush, if I'd had a BF there is no way I'd have gone anywhere else. Especially not somewhere over 200 miles away. @@normaladjacent
That's pretty cool that Alice has been drawing those spaces that are so familiar to you! I think it would strike me as surreal. I'm always delighted to see Alice's renderings of architecture in the different locales.
Hey Thom…. It is curious that Charlie and Nick made the agreement in Paris to share things with each other but Charlie does not tell Nick that Ben is trying to reach out to him to talk. What are your thoughts on that?
Also, I always got the sense that pedantry was welcome on Thom's channel, having a place next to treatise, argumentation, and discourse. All in the spirit of mutual respect and passion for the subject, of course!
""I tried to save youuuu!" "Oh, you're ALIVE! You're alive!! You're still alive!! " "You're okay." I melted. Thom has mentioned before that he saves flys but I didn't know THE AMOUNT OF DEDICATION, omg. 🥺
I haven't read the books. I have a theory that Ben was the 1 who overheard Tao & Isaac cuz Ben has always stalked Charlie & made his move finding out he was gay 2. I'm sorry you had ro go through that yourself 😔 💛 💙
I loved the dynamic that Ollie brought in the comics, but there's just SO much going on in the show that I can't see his role being anything substantive. Plus, the portrayals of Nick and Charlie are different enough in the show that the aspects of Nick and Charlie that Ollie evoked wouldn't have translated cleanly, in my opinion. Charlie is much more playful in the comic, and Nick is more open and impulsive and demonstrative. I think tonally a joyfully chaotic Ollie would have been out of place in the show, or at least distracting.
I never looked closely at Sahar's bedroom but I'm noticing now that it's flooded with bisexual colours. Maybe we're all idiots for assuming she was straight 😅 Even more interestingly, is her shelf made out of a skateboard?
Same here! I figured he's been busy with the edits on his book, but then I realized it's been two weeks since he posted about that. And he's usually really good about hearting people's comments but you posted this three days ago. So Thom, if you're reading this please let us know you're ok. 🥰
I live! \(^O^)/ RUclips is very inconsistent about when it actually sends me new comment notifications, and since I haven't been checking, I've missed quite a few, it seems. In any case, I'm alive and well, just had my video-making efforts briefly waylaid due to real life and work getting in the way!
and here I thought u managed to make a HS reaction under an hour … but alas, no. Lol. It’s okay though. It’s more fun this way. 😅 There definitely is a lot of big topics in Ep 7 so I don’t blame u. What happens in Darcy’s home was such a huge one for me, and very accurate as someone who grew up in a toxic and abusive home. I appreciate u pointing out all the details for us. It was nice seeing Darla for a bit. Take care Thom.
@@bogumibogda3299 Well, Elle found another place to sleep first.... My question is where did Tara and Darcy sleep after they got Darcy all cleaned up? Did they just curl up on the floor?
I’ve definitely seen asexual people who are in relationships, two asexual people and one asexual and one gay person and they love each other without sexual being a part of their relationship. I wouldn’t read too much into what Charlie said about if Nick didn’t ever want to have sex he wouldn’t either, I think he was just worried that Nick was feeling pressured to do more and just blurted that out which I think came off a bit immature. Ben backing away from the rainbow concerns me that he will end up being another closer case who marries a woman and has kids to look “normal” and then cheats on her with men. I wish Charlie had softened a little before they walk away and he tells Ben that he will be much happier when he stops being afraid of what people think and to live his life for himself and not his parents.
That encouragement to Ben would have been lovely and gracious, but I just don't think Charlie's in a headspace where he can give Ben any grace. He's been so deeply scarred by what happened in ways that he's still trying to understand that he's going to need therapy and catharsis before he can take a step back and soften. That takes compassion, which I think is needed here for Charlie to be able to express that particular sentiment, and right now what Charlie feels is indignation.
I’m a little disappointed you didn’t show a side-by-side with Elle’s piece and the famous piece that inspired it that she saw in the Louvre. I didn’t realize the foreshadowing and the inspiration that they did with that little moment in the Louvre until one of the reactors did put them side by side on screen. There’s a whole two episodes worth of show between the inspiration moment and the reveal, so it’s kind of hard to spot.
@@thom_is_trans- Yeah, I had to go back and look to make sure it wasn’t your previous video I saw the side by side on before I sent my comment. I don’t remember who did it now. Thanks for making these in depth analysis videos, btw. Love how much you point out that I didn’t notice before. (Like the parallel for episode one in this episode)
Tao's and Nick's Mom ❤👑 Tao's mom knows Elle is trans but no questions just happy and yeah Nick's Mom ❤ tori slay🥳 and hi Darla 😻...and hey nicks dad, your son is happy , so!and Darcy's mom...disgusting...homophobic and racist and the spring nelson dinner now...hmm...it's in book 4 🤔 it's to early
![HEARTSTOPPER S3 E3&4 (REACTION & COMMENTARY) [RE-UPLOAD]](/img/1.gif)
The thing that really gets me about Ben and his "apology" is the clear anger and confusion on his face when Charlie denies him that sought-after forgiveness (and the implicit attempt to get him to come back to this abuser, as Ben had harassed Nick about repeatedly). He can't believe that Charlie refused him, no hesitation and no qualms. He really expected this to go in his favor, for Charlie to fall for him again despite everything. Boy really has some narcissistic traits, all the internalized homophobia self-hate aside.
I feel like I'm the only one who was so angry with Ben's 'apology', and it's because, at least to me, it wasn't genuine. In fact, each time I watch a reaction or rewatch the episode it makes me even angrier at Ben. As someone who was in a relationship like that as a teen (I'm now 40- so a long time ago), I remember those BS apologies. I would keep going back and forgiving them because they would 'accept responsibility'. I clocked immediately how Ben's apology mask slipped several times when Charlie was reading him down. Nick was right when he said that Ben never really liked Charlie, he just liked having control over him. His home life doesn't excuse his behavior. One thing I noticed throughout both seasons is just how predatory Ben is. He's always creeping up on Charlie, practically stalking him, as well as verbally, emotionally, and physically abusing him. He even does the mental abuse on both Imogen and Nick throughout the second season- but Charlie is the main release valve for his rage. Yes, part of it is a lot of self-hatred, but I believe, based on the incredible portrayal of Sebastian Croft, that he is also a narcissistic psychopath. My oldest is Charlie's age and he pointed out that if Imogen had confronted Ben alone, or if Nick hadn't been with Charlie at the opening, he likely would have physically attacked them.
I think... as humans and as members of the LGBT community, we want to give those around us the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately, there are horrible people in every community, even ours.
I agree 100%.
The thing that gets me about his apologies in multiple episodes is he doesn't really say, I apologize for... he says, you know I'm sorry, you know (blank). it feels like he's telling Charlie how to feel about him. ETA: the other thing is, he always calls the SA "what happened," not "what I did." He distances himself from the responsibility; he doesn't accept it.
Absolutely agree with this (and one of your comments resonates with later plot developments in the books). We have 2 characters in this ep who don’t feel able to be out to their parents. One of them channels their energy into positivity, “getting acquainted with the local gays”, building other people’s confidence up and being an unapologetically proud defender of queer rights in every context where they have the agency to do that safely. The other encourages and participates in homophobic bullying; treats another person as a hookup then ghosts them, tramples over any concept of consent, and constantly negs EVERYONE he’s around to try to extend his manipulation and control over them. We’ve seen Tao, in this season, recognise that his emotionally insecure behaviour has been having negative repercussions on his friends, and make an effort to change: Ben hasn’t shown any growth at all in the way he treats other people in this series, but zooms in on telling Imogen/a roomful of people at a party that they mean nothing to him and aren’t worth his time. Being “a fuckup” or having unsupportive parents doesn’t get close to excusing the way he treats people.
@@mamabeth834 That's how I always see Ben, too. From beginning to end, it's always been about him and what he wants. Definitely a narcissistic abuser, one who seemed to even get a twisted pleasure out of tormenting Charlie and making him think that he could never find better. He enjoyed that control, thinking he had Charlie trapped. It astounded and angered him that Charlie would ever dare to turn him down, right from the first episode. It's truly lucky that people were there to stop Ben from escalating even further, with Charlie or Imogen. Not as sure if he would've attacked her as he did Charlie since his relationship with her was largely another way to harass Nick and he didn't have any actual interest in her, but his pride may have pushed him to do something anyway. If he'd gotten Immy alone after she so publicly dumped him... ~shudders~ Glad he's too much of a coward to try anything, knowing that she's willing to call him out and has the backing of the group as well as probably the rest of the people with them on the trip.
No no you are so not the only one. Like….I was pissed too. Are there people who actually thought his apology was genuine?
On Yan being so excited for Elle and Tao: it goes beyond 'being trans not being the defining feature of Elle's story', although that is also true... But also, it's not outright stated, but it is VERY clear that Yan knew Elle before she transitioned. The whole scene of Yan wanting to catch up with Elle when she comes over in Season 1 highlights that too. We never get an awkwardness or a sense that anything has CHANGED for Yan after Elle came out... She's just the 'perfect girl' for her perfect boy, and that's all there is.
Absolutely. I can’t stress enough how wholesome and refreshing that is in a tv show. Unheard of. I love it so so much. Yan ❤
The reading I always got on Elle's piece being given a special unveiling and being the only one to get that was that Elle's piece was selected as the only piece by a PROSPECTIVE student, while all the other works are by current students. I've seen that kind of ceremony given to guest/newcomer works in these kinds of events before, so it made sense to me.
Oh, that makes so much sense!
“Are you f**king kidding me? Get out of my house!” is excellent foreshadowing for this episode #IYKYK
27:49 Of the reactions I've watched I don't think I've seen anyone mention the colours of Isaac's leaves. Purple is associated with Asexuality and Green with Aromanticism.
I know most of the people here are fans of Thom and know what an awesome person he is. The fact that he is so kindhearted that he literally wouldn't hurt a fly makes me smile and feel so warm inside.
This is also one if my favorite episodes, although they are all great in their own ways. It's amazing that this second season not only lives up to all the anticipation and hype but is actually better than i could have imagined.
I also wish there was a scene between Isaac and some of the friend group showing more support of him after he got upset, especially because no one noticed him upset and crying at Tara's party.
Something totally irrelevant that bugs me is that Elle's parents aren't there for the art exhibit. We know they are supportive of her (based on next episode when Tau's picking her up for prom) so surely they would be there when their daughter was the featured artist at an exhibition. Maybe they were there, and just standing behind the bearded dude.
Didn't think of that but yeah, it's weird her parents aren't there.
Good point! 🤔Maybe because the school represents found family and moving out? I don't know.
Could have been as simple as only being able to book the actors for a limited number of hours. I'll choose to believe Elle's parents were there, just offscreen lol.
@@normaladjacent yeah, I assume so
@@sallymarr5329 Possible that they simply couldn't get out of work? Or maybe they were there and giving their daughter time with her friends and to make new ones with her new schoolmates. It's implied that Lambert is some distance from their home area, so everyone would've had to get there somehow. The train or a bus is definitely possible as we've seen Narlie take both on their own, but it's just as possible that parents drove at least some of them. In the comic, Elle's mom picked several of the group up for their upcoming beach day (teased for the first episode of S3), so she could have a larger car in the show as well.
You don't cover this, but it was nice to see Tara's mom! There's also a TEENY TINY hint here as to why Darcy didn't show up at Tara's later in the evening. Tara's grandmother, who does not know that she is a lesbian (let alone one with a girlfriend who sleeps over), will be visiting. And given the pressure that Darcy puts on herself to be a certain person for Tara, it's understandable that she would not seek help from Tara as her presence would beg questions that she does not want Tara to have to face from someone she is not out to.
This scene is also a coda and contast to the final scene with Darcy and her mother.
Yeah, Tara's mom explicitly says, "No sleepovers tonight." Under the circumstances, Tara's mom probably would have made an exception and made up the couch, but Darcy doesn't act like it's even an option.
The issue about whether Isaac was “warranted” in blowing up misses the point. Isaac was authentically experiencing confused pain. He is a teenager, unable YET to process his feelings except in frustration. This moment is jarring but appropriate.
Not to mention, I can imagine in addition to Isaac feeling confused about his own identity, he also feels like he has hurt/let down James, a person he truly cares about, so not only is the gang reminding him that he's different because he's not into James romantically, but that James liked him and he feels like he hurt someone he truly cares about.
@@prairieartemis I also think it's worth noting that nobody talks about Isaac or to Isaac in these group settings UNTIL this moment. They talk on and on and on about themselves and what's going on in their lives, and he just tags along, quietly supportive. That really hit me when he said, "I get that you don't think my life is interesting unless I've got some kind of romantic drama going on." I was like, yeah, they really don't. With has supportive as he's been for all of them, that's really hurtful and pretty sad.
I think ppl sometimes confuse what being toxic means. Humans are going to have a range of emotions and valid anger or impatience. It doesn’t mean they are being toxic or bad. He absolutely is allowed to get upset. It’s not like he is being petty or selfish or manipulative. He is genuinely upset and confused and feels like his friends aren’t helping. Let the man have a blow up. It doesn’t make them a bad person, just human.
As a parent of a kid who’s only a few years younger than these characters, I watched this episode more from a parent’s perspective. The fact that Alice expanded on the comics to bring the parents more into the picture is so smart and so effective. I really think parents should be watching this show as much as young people are.
The show shows us parents that are very obviously good (Nick’s, Tao’s, Tara’s mom, Elle’s parents) and very obviously bad (Nick’s dad, Darcy’s mom). But I like that we also see the parents that are somewhere in the middle, like Charlie’s parents. I can see their good intentions (and they actually remind me of my own parents !), but I can also see how their approach is failing Charlie. How they’re not seeing the signs, how they’re not listening enough or understanding enough, how they see maintaining discipline and rules as evidence that they know what they’re doing. This is very very typical. When I think of my own kid, my biggest fear is missing when something is wrong, or having her feel like she needs to hide something important from me. Charlie’s parents don’t even realize that’s happening to them. But, I still recognize that they love Charlie and they can fix this; I sincerely hope we see that play out in Season 3!
And then there are the parents we don’t see (much), but can make some inferences about - Ben’s parents. These seem to be parents that have caused a lot of harm and damage to Ben, but in a way that’s harder to detect. They probably care more about appearances and what others think of them, and probably see Ben’s school accomplishments as evidence that they’re doing everything right with Ben. I also think they’re probably the type of parents who are raising Ben in their own image and don’t grasp the concept that your children are individuals with their own identity. Ben probably had to deal with so many expectations that he has to live up to (including the expectations around his sexuality). None of this excuses Ben’s abhorrent behavior. But it makes me sad that the parents have completely failed at understanding who their son is, and they’ve missed the opportunity to steer him in the right direction. I think Ben wanting to control Charlie, and feeling like he can do that and get away with it, may partly stem from seeing that type of behavior being displayed at home. It just makes me very upset to think parents like this really exist, and we don’t know who they are because, again, they paint a very pretty picture. It’s only when you see the child displaying toxic behaviors that you start to wonder how much of that is learned at home.
I love what you wrote, thank you, and it is so great getting this perspective, particularly as I am not a parent myself.
I, too, love how the parents get more attention in this season (as, btw, do the teachers), and your insights helped me understand their motivations better.
Regarding Charlie's parents in particular, which I'm glad you focused on, one thing that did bother me a little has to do with Charlie's dad, Julio. In S1, he showed tremendous compassion in several scenes, which brought me to tears, especially the hug he gave to his son after the First Kiss scene. I love my dad and he is wonderful, but I wish he could have been a little bit more like this when I was growing up, and I imagine quite a large number of people watching the show feel the same about their father (and/or mother, for that matter). However, that all seemed to be cast aside in S2, Julio was almost a different person, less compassionate - with the exception of the moment after Charlie's mum grounded him and Julio followed Charlie to the stairs and asked him if he wanted dinner. However, that didn't follow with how he was in S1, he didn't go to the fullest extent of possible compassion that he could have given to Charlie at that moment - or, perhaps, he is just a different person when he's alone with his son vs. when his wife is present.
Do you have any thoughts / perspectives you might wish to add on that? Would love to hear.
While we're on this subject, I do want to give kudos by name to these very fine actors who portray Charlie's parents, Georgina Rich and Joseph Balderrama, who play their parts so very well. In an interview, Joe said it was one of his favorite things to do in S2, his scenes with these two actors.
Thanks to Thom for bringing up many good points on all the parental relationships and thank YOU again for some terrific, insightful commentary.
@@broddybounce
Hi! Thanks so much for your kind comment!
I agree with you that these actors did a really great job. One of the many amazing things about this show in general is how much these actors with smaller parts can accomplish with limited screen time.
Julio Spring! Yes, I completely agree with you that after Season 1, it’s disappointing not to see him be there for Charlie in the same way. You mentioned in your comment that perhaps he’s different when Jane is there vs. when it’s just him and Charlie. I think this is EXACTLY what’s going on. The dynamic of Jane and Julio is very common. So often there’s one parent who defers to the other when it comes to difficult parenting situations, and they prefer to withhold their own opinions in order to not to stir the pot. Sometimes you see that person being the stereotypical “man of the house” and sometimes it’s the “tough love matriarch.” Like Charlie, I grew up with the tough love mom, and the dad who was more sensitive, but only showed it when mom wasn’t there…
You can see in multiple scenes that Julio is making a face or wanting to say something, but he holds back. It is a shame because by doing so, he’s putting “keeping the peace” above being more supportive of Charlie. I’d like to think that after those scenes we are shown, Julio would at least check in with Charlie later, like he did in episode 2 when he asked Charlie if he wanted dinner.
Again, I do hope that in Season 3 we see both parents evolve and focus on offering Charlie support and compassion, and I do hope we see at least one scene where Julio stands up to Jane a bit more, like he does in the comics.
One more thought on Julio: the only time he does take the lead on discipline is when he bans Nick from sleepovers and doesn’t want any hanky panky going on. I think this was written this way to be funny because it just seems funnier coming from the dad. It also, to me, shows a level of openness and acceptance of Charlie’s sexuality in that he’s treating the situation pretty much exactly the same way he’d treat it if Charlie was straight and told them he had a girlfriend. In addition, I also connected this to Julio having Spanish heritage and potentially growing up in a Roman Catholic environment, where maintaining chastity is treated as this huge deal (again here, speaking from personal experience growing up in an environment like this).
@@melisahebe Thank you for your additional insightful comment, really appreciate it. And, yes, Julio's banning Nick from coming over for sleepovers did seem just a tad out of place for his character based on how he has acted towards Charlie previously, but, I agree, was likely done for comedic effect and helped set up one of Tori's very few iconic moments in S2. But I almost feel like Charlie, instead of being upset, should have responded, in a lighthearted, almost facetious manner, "Oh, Dad! Give me a break!" and then chuckled, or something to that effect - or maybe he would have, but for Mum being in the room. And, yes, I do hope they expand the storyline a bit for Julio and Jane in S3 - I do appreciate that while Jane was only given a measly 30 seconds, if that, in S1, the character was much broadened out in S2 and can be done moreso in S3. Perhaps we were treated to a foreshadowing of what might be a significant evolution in Jane's approach to parenting Charlie after her quite pivotal conversation with Sarah at the end of the dinner scene. And continued character development with the parents of the other series' characters in S3 will be welcome, as well. Thanks, again!
@@broddybounce and now, we wait at least a year for season 3 😣!!
Yeah Jane and Sarah get more expanded roles in Season 3 if they follow the books. Loved this conversation - agree on all your points as a parent of a 16 year old. The traditional parenting method of it's us versus them that we were raised in is what Charlie's parents are showing with their discipline. We're all just learning as we go along as parents - also sometimes different kids need different parenting styles. But it only happens through trial and error unfortunately. I think as parents today some of us a learning that we don't have to be friends with our kids but we do need to be open enough to them so that they come to us with their problems. It's also hard as a parent to change your parenting style as your kid grows and needs more adult parenting. Here's hoping for Jane and Julio's growth. They have their work cut out for them with BOTH kids most probably in very dark places.
So, it's very sweet that Sarah is the one who suggests inviting Charlie's entire family... But also, I am choosing to believe that this was her trying to avoid having to spend so much time placating Stéphane, and hoping she can either fob him off on Jane and Julio, or try to spend time speaking to Jane and Julio herself to avoid him :P
That's an interesting theory. I don't get the sense that she's ever met Jane or Julio before this dinner, so that would be quite the gamble!
@@elisabethbauman6190 Oh, I'm not being serious here. I mean, moreso I'm just saying that in her position I would be analysing every possible option to avoid speaking to Stéphane for longer than necessary :P
Charlie not blocking Ben could be a self-destructive/scab picking thing, but I could also see Charlie being hesitant to block him because in some ways it might feel safer to be able to keep tabs on Ben and know where his head is at, versus not knowing and always worrying about what he might do?
I think some saw Isaac stumbling upon an aroace artist as sudden or convenient because for viewers who didn't come into the season aware that Isaac was or might be aroace, they consumed his storyline assuming it *was* a straightforward romance with James, and assumed that because they were in the dark all season Isaac must have been too, and that the kiss with James sparked a sudden realization, when I tend to see it more as confirmation of something Isaac had suspected on some level. If you watched the season *not* assuming Isaac allo, there were signs that he's been grappling with his identity from the very first episode. I also would have liked a short scene of one of the friends checking in after Isaac's outburst, even if he just brushed them off again. Charlie seems the obvious candidate, especially since they had that conversation about Charlie's feelings for Nick on the coach in episode 4. I wanna see more of their friendship in season 3!
Ben definitely has a revisionist history thing going on when it comes to his relationship with Charlie. I think he vaguely gets that he wasn't a good boyfriend (or not-boyfriend) to Charlie, but I really don't think he understands *what* it is he did wrong, let alone how deeply Charlie was harmed. Exhibit A, Ben harassing Charlie over Instagram DMs and then creepily tracking him down and cornering him at Elle's art show to force him to hear him out when Charlie made it very clearly he didn't want to talk. Just as he did throughout their relationship, Ben isn't thinking or caring about what Charlie wants, it's all about Ben and what *he* wants, and their interaction's going to happen on his terms.
Then there's the apology itself, in which Ben does not acknowledge *anything* he actually did wrong, just calls himself a "piece of shit" then talks about his unaccepting parents and how much he liked Charlie. At best totally self-centered, at worst it feels manipulative, like Ben thinks this is how he wins Charlie's sympathy and gets his forgiveness (or gets him back). Ben's been told directly by Charlie *and* Nick what he did wrong before - in season 1 episode 1 Charlie calls him out on not caring about his feelings, cheating, and using him for someone to make out with, in season 2 Nick calls Ben out on assaulting Charlie. But none of this is acknowledged in his apology, and there is zero acknowledgment at all of Charlie's feelings or how Charlie was hurt. It also feels telling that Ben uses the "if Charlie only gave me more time..." line that he used with Nick earlier in the season, and even with Charlie himself during the assault scene in season 1 episode 1. It leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
I loved what you said about how this would play out in a bad rom com, with Charlie swooning over Ben's shitty apology and taking him back. Lots of teen shows have queer characters forgive, redeem, even date their bullies and abusers (Kurt and Karofsky on Glee, Eric and Adam on Sex Education, etc.). I *love* that Heartstopper rejects that trope completely, with both Harry and Ben.
Very well-put! I kinda wish I had seen your explanation before I wrote my own...
Thank you for reminding me about Thom’s short diatribe on the “horrible person’s behaviour is ultimately redeemed when they’re forgiven by the self-sacrificing friends/partner they have harmed” romcom trope. It is SO poisonous, I hate it. High Fidelity is a prime example, not even for John Cusack would I watch that movie again.
When you commented Tao's mom is a ray of sunshine, did you notice she was wearing a yellow dress which is a sign of her mood.
My first thought was "Tao's mum is cosplaying as a literal ray of sunshine" 😂
Tao doing Asian Dad Dancing >>>>>>>>>>>>
P.S. Tao’s Mum has practically adopted Elle.
I've never witnessed anyone work so hard to save a fly!
At the heart of the controversy about how Ben's apology was received and answered seems to be how closely people identify with Ben's character. It seemed pretty clear to me that he was supposed to represent an archetype instead of a three dimensional human. His manipulative words, his abusive behavior, his revisionist history, his wild swings between saying he liked Charlie versus he barely knew Charlie versus he simply pitied Charlie were all kind of over-the-top. He used language that implied Charlie was an object to be won or stolen, and even during the apology itself, Charlie was "something good." Not the relationship was something good, but that Charlie, himself, was a thing that was good. He thought about absolutely everyone in relation to himself; he was at the center, and everyone else was a satellite to varying degrees. He was selfish and scheming and devious and duplicitous and deeply, deeply hurtful. Ostensibly, it would make sense that rejecting his superficial and inadequate apology couched in the language of a narcissist would be reasonable.
This issue here, I think, is twofold:
1) Bash did such an amazing job humanizing Ben and making him seem three-dimensional that people didn't recognize that his character was not actually written to be three-dimensional. The character was written simply to be an example of or a stand-in for abusers of a particular stripe.
2) Because Ben is closeted and harbors internalized homophobia, viewers who have experienced the pain of being forced to remain closeted or having had to work through their own internalized homophobia identify with him when they weren't intended to. They have compassion for Ben's character like they would have compassion for themselves or for other queer people they know in real life, and so they are distressed by Charlie's response because they feel like it would have been devastating to themselves to hear if that had been their story.
That's where I get distressed - people are arguing ferociously all over comments sections everywhere about the proper way Charlie should have reacted to the apology, and to the people who think Charlie should have offered forgiveness, it FEELS personal. Not only Charlie's reaction, but the reactions of all of the people who celebrated Charlie's response and defended it, feel like a slap in the face to people who have chosen to see themselves in Ben. My only answer to that is to remind people that they are NOT Ben, and that unlike him, they DO deserve redemption if they wish to pursue it in earnest. They are not entitled to forgiveness from those whom they have wronged in the past, but they are entitled to support from the queer community on their path to become more self-aware, more authentic, and more whole. That's the message I hope everyone takes away from this particular apology - that if you DO step toward the rainbow path, you can have a place in the queer community once you open your heart to it, even if it's only safe for you to do it in your head.
When you say "Ostensibly, it would make sense that rejecting his superficial and inadequate apology couched in the language of a narcissist would be reasonable," is this something that viewers* would intuitively feel or would they actually "intellectually" know things like what the "language of a narcissist" etc. looks like? (I'm not trying to argue with any of your points, I'm just trying to gain more knowledge and it seems to me like you are happy to share yours when asked (?) )
*disregarding for a second the viewers that identify closely with Ben
@@snoopy_J I think some viewers would feel it intuitively, but others would know it intellectually from having had to deal with narcissists before. So basically both 😉
In all seriousness, I think that a lot of people would feel like the apology deserves to be rejected because it doesn't pass the sniff test without any need to label Ben. It looks like an apology, but it doesn't contain the essence of an apology that shows genuine remorse for wrongdoing, an understanding of what that wrongdoing was, and a believable commitment to change. Here Ben expresses regret for losing his relationship with Charlie and says, "I'm a messed up person" and "I know was a piece of shit," but he doesn't get specific about how his messed-upness ended up messing up Charlie. That leads one to conclude that either he doesn't actually have the awareness to understand it or that he doesn't think it's worth bothering to mention because it's just part of a manipulation tactic. The majority of people would pick up on the fact that the apology was flawed without identifying or deconstructing the narcissistic language itself.
For people who are conversant in the language of narcissists, it's usually because they've been to therapy and had a professional explain it to them or because social media has made them aware through pop psychology articles (characteristics of narcissists seems to be a popular topic for listicles). These people would be particularly sensitized to Ben phrasing everything in relation to himself - "I'm a messed up person," "my parents would never understand," "I wanted something good," "I want what you two have," and "I really liked you." Although narcissists are capable of empathy, it's their first instinct to look at everything through the lens of how it affects them instead of acknowledging on how the other person is affected. Instead of "I realize that my behavior hurt you" or "you look like you're really happy now," they use the ME! ME! ME! language of a toddler. Another hallmark of a narcissist is the urge to manipulate others, particularly through denying facts and inventing falsehoods with stunning conviction, which he has done regularly prior to this. Pushing to speak with Charlie to point of stalking him is also an indicator, because Ben's need to talk to Charlie is the primary concern to Ben, irrespective of whatever Charlie might want.
I hope that answers your question. If it didn't - feel free to ask follow ups to clarify. I am not offended, either by your desire to understand my position more clearly or by any inclination you might have to debate it. If you have other interpretations, I welcome them! Of course, I was raised in a house where "to argue" was a virtue. I was taught that back and forth was helpful to getting at the heart of things, and that truth often lies in between two positions and is only revealed through debate. Sometimes that gets me into trouble on the internet when I'm commenting with people who are conflict avoidant or interpret my alternative take as a criticism. I try not to do that with other people - it makes me happier to give them the benefit of the doubt 🙂
@@elisabethbauman6190 That definitely answered my question, thank you! And, no, I really don't have an opinion or interpretation, sorry.
Isaac's overalls in this episode reminded me how much I love overalls. And since I somehow didn't own any overalls, I specifically went out and bought myself a pair of overalls. Thanks Isaac! 💜
I think Elle's painting is also inspired by Tao's paining that she saw in the art room at the end of season 1. He had the tree on the left and the four of them lined up under it. Of course the Louvre painting gave her the idea
As an aroace person isaacs story was so important to me, I do agree though the scene after isaac snaps at everyone was so abrupt, it just felt really strange? I don’t know if they had something filmed or maybe didn’t realise, but I think because no one has been noticing that Isaac has been struggling so much the entire season, that would’ve been the perfect opportunity to have a scene where someone checks your on him. Especially since the group usually seems really observant. Of course they are all going through their own issues, but after isaac reacting that way which is out of character for him, you’d think they’d show a moment where Charlie, Tao and Elle try to talk to him or at least one of them because they’re great friends even if isaac doesn’t open up yet. I feel like that could’ve added even more weight to Elle showing her painting of the 4 of them afterwards tbh, if they had a scene of the 4 of them together like that again.
I hope on the next season we have more with this and it’s not the end of his story, it is very isolating but he’s been so alone this whole time and even though it’s nice that he found relief with Alex the artist and his books, it would just be nice to see him talk to his friends. I did really like the scene at prom though when they told him to take a photo and he didn’t want to do it alone since everyone else were going as couples and they took a friendship photo with him, that kind of is a snippet of the moment I wanted to see after the scene where Isaac tells them off.
Excellent points!
I adore Isaac as much as the next person, but to be honest, it’s not like he communicated anything to anybody about how he was struggling. And yes, I do understand that people could’ve maybe noticed a little better but communication is key as we see with Nick and Charlie. 💙💛
Can I just say how many times Ben has contradicted himself. In the first season on episode 8 when Charlie just walks past him to do the race, Ben was like are you possessed with me or something. THEN, in season 2 not only is Ben wanting Charlie, but also somehow found out here Charlie was to confront him?!?! This is just one of many occasions. Also Imogen points out how obsessed Ben is towards Charlie
I don't give Ben the same grace that you do because I don't think he actually understood what he had done wrong to Charlie when he first apologized. That was clear when Charlie asked him about the first time he kissed him and Ben remembered it fondly, while it was a source of trauma for Charlie. Maybe now that he does understand that because of what Charlie told him, he might actually be able to change for the better, but his initial apology was hollow without him actually understanding what it is that he's done wrong.
Agreed. The apology had the external trappings of contrition without the core components and awareness to make it genuine and meaningful.
Yes also his apology includes telling Charlie how much of a victim he is and how he needed Charlie without realising how he victimised Charlie. An apology shouldn't include excuses - though in a different conversation he could have spoken with Charlie about how messed up he is/going through something and having homophobic parents. In this moment the apology should have been for specific things he did to Charlie - some introspection helping him realise how much he hurt Charlie and was sorry for it. There's none of that here.
@@ThatsMyUsborneBook Absolutely 100%!!!
Brilliant reaction video.
I notice how neatly Nick and Ben's stories run in parallel with one showcasing how to be and the other how to mess up.
The 1st shots of Charlie walking in anticipating meeting up with Ben..and then he finds he's been stood up... mirror him walking into school after the kiss in the rain...to find Nick waiting, smiling and supportive.
Both Ben and Nick want the relationship kept secret, but Ben orders him 'Don't tell anyone about us', while Nick asks 'is it okay...?' And is worried about it.
We see Ben not listening to Charlie, kissing him mid-sentence and running off, refusing to come round to hang out, dismissing the idea they are boyfriends. We see Nick getting to know him, acknowledging him, supporting him, amazed Charlie questioned whether they were boyfriends.
Both have a flirtation with a girl but where Ben is smooching her outside the gates (to make sure his mates see him with her?) Nick is bounced into agreeing to a date which he then cancels.
And when they are upset and lose it- Ben stalks Charlie to unload a load of hate and try to diminish him as much as possible, while Nick loses it by throwing the first punch to defend Charlie.
Their dual path affects how they treat others too - Nick is always respectful to Imogen; Ben looks like he asked Imogen out specifically to bother Nick - he largely ignores her or puts her down unless he sees Nick watching them. The symmetry is perfect.
I love that Isaac is coming to terms with his sexuality and honestly, given what he's going through I really admire him for being so supportive to his friends who are head over heels in love. I totally understand him lashing out on the friend group, because the pressure he must be feeling when he sees all of his friends being lovey-dovey all the while struggling with his feelings towards James must be immense for a teenage boy. I mean, I was at a wedding a couple days ago and I was also surrounded by couples everywhere (and it was a destination wedding, so they were "in my face" nonstop) and as a forever alone fundamentally unlikeable person I got so stressed out I got physically sick. Btw I liked our idea of a missing scene regarding someone from the friend group checking up on him, whether it's Charlie who always makes sure everyone's okay, or the (un)licensed therapists Nick and Elle. Maybe an idea for another of your fanfictions? 🙂
And Ben...oh, Ben. In the wise words of a song I Say No from Heathers "Blame your childhood, blame your dad, blame the life you've never had, but hurting people, that's your choice, my friend..." (actually the whole song is quite fitting for this scene) He can blame anyone he wants to for ruining his "relationship" with Charlie, but what he fails to see is that it was never a relationship in the first place, but rather a game with his favorite "toy". First he tells Nick that he "stole Charlie from him" and then says stuff like "I wanted something good. You were something good." Well, yes, exactly, because he treated him like a THING. I mean let me just randomly come, kiss you, brush my lips with a hand and leave, but watch your messages, in case I'd want to do that again. But besides that all he did was belittling Charlie and mocking him for no reason and ultimately assaulting him, which is a step WAY TO FAR, Benjamin, do you even realize you've scarred him for life? I am so glad Charlie mustered the courage to tell him all of that and didn't let him interrupt and I really hope it was enough of a wake up call for him. The other day I've heard that instead of "forgive and forget" it is actually healthier to "remember and recover" which I thing is true, because no one is entitled to be forgiven for the hurt they've caused because even if the other side forgives, there will still be a part of them which will be extra cautious at the minimum.
Bottom line, though, I did choke up after the scene, because I love Sebastian Croft, however I do not want to see Ben Hope ever again either and if so, then yeah, I want him to get the hell away from Charlie. But I was thinking, Bash writes very good songs, so maybe one of them will make its way into Heartstopper.
It's funny you mention that about fanfic, because while working on this video, I literally wrote a note to myself that says, "Fic idea - ****** talks to Isaac before Here & Queer to make sure he's okay??" (Name censored for the sake of not spoiling things in case I do end up writing it, though it will probably not come as a surprise regardless. :P)
@@thom_is_trans Ooh, I can't wait to read it :) I actually read a fanfic related to this exact topic yesterday, but I really enjoy your fanfiction, because you understand the characters deeply and it shows.
“remember and recover” love that!
A big Charlie Spring hug for all the fundamentally unlikeables out there, and a big Nick Nelson hug for the many, many forever alones among us!
The Eiffel Tower “book” is a map! We see them holding it in episode 4, and N/C hold it in a promo photo. It’s also in Charlie’s bag!
Loved this reaction, glad to see you breaking it up into two parts - there’s a lot to talk about! I definitely agree about the Isaac points with the pacing. We really needed some other scene between the Isaac outburst and the Lambert school opening so that we didn’t have that emotional discontinuity of him suddenly being happy and smiley in the next scene. It wouldn’t even need to be a scene that involved Isaac, just something to indicate time passing (which I think is a few days in-universe).
I also think that the Lambert art exhibit scene with Alex the artist just felt too close to the James bookstore/Isaac outburst scenes. It would’ve honestly helped if they’d just moved that moment later in the Lambert sequence, after Elle’s speech and Tao and Elle’s convo maybe. Because in the episode it basically goes: James and Isaac talk - Isaac yells at his friends - they arrive at Lambert - Tao finds out about Lambert - Isaac talks to Alex. There’s only two beats between Isaac’s outburst and the “resolution.” However, if they’d moved the Isaac and Alex scene, then we wouldn’t have had as many beats between Tao finding out about Lambert, and the resolution to that conflict. So it seems like maybe the pacing for the Elle-Tao storyline took precedence in this sequence.
The more I think about it and read others' reactions, the more I feel they really did try to cram a ton into this episode. I think everyone agrees that the Isaac storyline this episode needed more time to breathe - whether that was from reordering scenes (as you suggest) or doing more to indicate the passage of time (as you suggest) or inserting an additional scene as transition (as Thom suggests). I can't pinpoint where it would have been appropriate to pare back elsewhere, but this episode has a lot packed into it and I don't think flows quite as cleanly as other episodes.
I think we also need to look at the books Isaac has been reading. He is reading Summer Bird Blue which has an aroace main character and he bought Loveless in Paris - so he may have an inkling of what is going on but it's not enough like what he is actually experiencing.
That fly scene was hilarious. Thank you for leaving it in, lol. I usually take spiders outside. Other bugs I usually just kill.
I've seen some complain that there's not more about her being trans, or Tara being black, etc. Like if you have minorities then that has to be addressed or it's just tokenism. But why? Why can't their story be something else? It's a short series and Nick and Charlie are the leads so the others get limited time. And Alice has other things in mind to tell about them. The trans stuff is touched on here and there but it doesn't have to be the focus. Tao was around for it so he knows what he's getting into. So any possible issues with that are between them.
No, Elle did not think that through, heh.
Agreed about the exhibits, Elle's and the Ace one. It's convient, and being right after the James thing is probably what really does it, but given where they are it makes sense he'd find an Ace exhibit. Somebody who can finally give him the words he's been looking for all this time.
I think Tao has a right to be annoyed that she didn't just tell him. But also that it's not a big deal. Tao has grown so much this season. Love to see it. The whole failed date part in episode 3 I still probably could have done without, but oh well, we got there in the end. I know it's meant for more contrast but still.
Yeah, I hope Ben can take what Charlie said to heart and finally change. That idea about a cameo near the end showing some progress, without interacting with Charlie, would be something. Doubt it would happen but it could work.
Can't wait to hear all those thoughts about the dinner and Nick's messy family.
And I would totally watch that hour long video about the final scene, hehe.
Splitting up the episode was the perfect decision. And you were able to stop when you started feeling tired. Yay, go you! ☺
100 % spotted the Floklore poster in Tara's room. 👀I saw that Patrick Walters had kept it for himself after the shoot. Now I want one for my apartment.
The fly rescue might be the most precious thing I've ever seen. 🥺Darla is an impressive huntress. She's so full of personality. I love her.
The reaction Tao's mom had to Elle and Tao getting together makes Charlie's parents' reaction to the same news even more sad and disappointing. This is how a parent should react to their kid telling them a happy news... Not with incredulity, indifference and opposition. Sigh... 😒
Charlie is so real for playing Toad in Mariokart. Toad IS the superior character, always. ✌
I know I've commented this before, but I didn't get why Ben was even present in season two at first. A few rewatches made me realize the role he played in both Nick's and Charlie's journeys this season. Ultimately, the attempted apology scene was really important and really well done. Charlie's reply is perfect. It's exactly what he needed to say and it's exactly what Ben (and the audience) needed to hear. It's an all-around very satisfying conclusion to this arc.
I really hope that Nick, after hearing all of it, got to have a proper conversation with Charlie about how he felt and if he was okay (similarly to what Charlie does with him after the fight with his father over dinner).
The rainbow wave was the perfect visual. Ben wasn't ready to walk toward the path of self-acceptance. Even if people going through similar experiences would have welcomed him with open arms. Even if there was an entire community by his side to help him through his journey. I think it was a very powerful way to show it. I'm so happy we won't have to see his character ever again, even if he ended up being an interesting one. Please let Charlie be free of his tormentor!
Thank you for sharing your story with your abusive ex. I'm sorry you had to go through that and still do, and I hope you never have to see or hear a thing about him ever again.
LOVED the reaction. ❤ I can't wait to see part 2 with the dinner party. Don't forget to take your time ☺
About 8 years ago, I had an abusive boyfriend, it was bad. I still haven't dated since the breakup, in part because of the PTSD. For the sake of other women, I really hope he becomes a better person (Though he is A LOT older than Ben, and his abuse was for more complicated reasons so doubt he will.). However, I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER want to talk to him EVER again. (I actually semi-ghosted him after our final fight, which is so NOT me, but I just couldn't deal with him anymore) . I barely let his best friend/maybe mistress apologize when she randomly came up to me in a restaurant when I was having a work meeting a few years later and just apologized. (Luckily my colleague knew the story since I believe strongly in not hiding that dark time in my life but his friend didn't know that.) Charlie was being gracious in letting Ben speak, but I am glad he was able to express his anger. I have also wondered what Nick might be feeling. It is great, that he let Charlie do what he needed to do, but I am sure, he was pretty devastated by hearing Charlie talking about how he now second-guesses when good stuff happens to him, and whether he "deserves" good things to happen to him. Oh, and of course all the hugs for your abuse. I am glad your abuser seemed to have realized he was in the wrong, but also I never didn't know how to be decent to my partners.
Thank you for sharing your experience, and I'm so sorry that happened to you. I hope you have gotten the support you need to heal in earnest. It sounds like it was a really formative experience, and you deserve to be able to take back your own agency and not let the shadow of your abuser's behavior drain the color from your future. Here's a big Nick Nelson hug for you, from across the miles!
This song by Baby Queen quickly became my favorite. It's an absolute bop, and it's the essence of the philosophy of Absurdism brilliantly condensed into an insanely catchy pop song! No one needs to read Camus's take on the Myth of Sisyphus to get the benefit of his worldview - Baby Queen makes it accessible and lyrical all at the same time.
In honor of Baby Queen, though, I do think we should see something from Camus on Isaac's reading list for Season 3 - The Stranger, perhaps. After all, an aroace person navigating finding joy in a life where romantic and erotic love do not serve as pillars for happiness will need some inspiration about how to buttress his life with other types of meaning.
This song also gives me hope that Baby Queen has had a personal breakthrough. "I was crying at a party, which was not unusual of me," is a callback to "Buzzkill." Based on that song in particular, and the larger catalog of songs admitting to obsessive thoughts and anti-social behavior, she needs therapy and BETTER FRIENDS. I want to give her a big hug and tell her that if she were crying at my party, I'd sit down with her to talk instead of telling her that she was a "killjoy" that needed to "shut up." I hope her time with the Heartstopper crew has helped her heal a little!
Somehow I always thought that the time when she wrote Buzzkill was far behind her. But I don't remember if she actually said that in Interviews or if I just chose to believe it in order to enjoy the song.
If Ben is going to apologize properly,he NEEDS to EXPLAIN WHY HE DID THOSE THINGS TO CHARLIE. He can’t just say he really liked Charlie that it made him do those things.
I’m pretty sure back in S1 when Ben kept on saying no one is ever desperate to go out with someone like Charlie but Ben made it seem like he only said that because Ben probably wanted Charlie for himself that he needed to make sure Charlie wasn’t taken the minute Ben saw him & Nick holding hands. He was very much jealous and DEFINITELY STILL LIKED HIM,why else would he follow Charlie outside of the cinema which was a bit creepy (Bully episode)? No one would do that unless they still have feelings for their ex.
For Ben to tell Nick “Stop acting so gay for him (Charlie)” when he’s needs to TELL HIMSELF THAT (Ben only said that because he was jealous obviously).
Since during the moments of Paris,you could see how much Ben like to stare at Charlie (Especially when Ben sat next to Charlie) even when Charlie was with Nick or his friends. And don’t forget how Ben stares at Nick & Charlie’s moment when Charlie was giving him a pen during EXAM study week.
Ben needs to stop blaming Nick for “stealing Charlie from him” when actually Nick SAVED Charlie. Because was it before or after Ben tried to assault Charlie when Charlie tried to break up with him? And plus Ben wasn’t even dating Charlie anymore making Charlie single when Charlie started to have a relationship with Nick. It was SO ADORABLE how Nick & Charlie started off as a friendship but they were so close and both had romantic feelings for each other that it turned into a relationship.
It was Ben’s fault he lost Charlie. Which made Ben realize that Charlie is actually a great catch,he lost (Literally any guy would be so lucky to date Charlie). I mean Ben could of still have Charlie if Ben didn’t mistreat him so badly. And plus Ben DIDN’T WANT TO LABEL THEM as “Boyfriends” when they were still together and now Ben wants to be Charlie’s boyfriend right when Nick already taken that role?
Hi,
If I may say: your Reactions/ Analyses of these Heartstopper episodes are an amazing experience to watch, absorb, reflect on!
Your insights are unique and beautifully articulated. I could listen to you discuss and deconstruct for forever.
(The fact that you did Not edit out the fly incident is both hilarious 😆 and makes us adore you even more!)
I think for many of us there is the Heartstopper experience that Alice Oseman gives us, the gorgeously collaborative one that Alice AND Euros Lyn, Joe and Kit and Yasmin, Will, Tobie, Corinna, Kizzy, Rhea and, of course, Bash give us along with every perfect note that every actor and creative realizes here and, lastly, there is this gorgeous engagement that we get to share in responding and resonating to all that is Heartstopper in each of our tiny personal universes.
The power of art, right? Here where it's okay to "just feel" or to understand something nearly inexpressible but nevertheless real. That artistic power was really in the foreground this season but especially in this episode as many of our beloved living characters moved along their journeys compelled in some way by the art of Elle. Culminating in Isaac's beautifully realized epiphany.
I thought that I could not be more moved, overtaken, obliterated by the scene with Charlie (and Nick) and Ben. And then came you. What more can I say?
Thank you So much for sharing your experiences too. (Here's hoping that every time you share, there is a share of healing returned your way.)
Your reactions remind us powerfully why this kind of representation has more value than we can name, individually or collectively.
... And that every conversation about and revisiting of these episodes and stories helps us discover their beauties and gifts more and more.
This entire season has built upon the sweet, truthful and gentle foundation of Heartstopper season one but added are shades and layers that are less idyllic yet equally hopeful and revealing the strength needed to approach life in ways that could lead us to be our own "better angels".
A million thanks for you and for all that you do Thom is Trans!
❤🩹,
k
*Sees Part 1* Oh Thom no, you poor boy XD Im glad you're making it at least more palpable to edit at the very least breaking it up. Hopefully I as well shall be able to condense my thoughts enough to not get yelled at by RUclips again lol Nick releasing his photoroll of Charlie and everyone at Truham being like "Ah, they were roommates." And as an anxious lad myself who has never blocked anyone who triggers me I kind of feel for Charlie. I dont know if it's that people pleaser or hate of confrontation but Blocking someone never felt right. And for some specific people i've cut off I decided out of spite not to block them because i've rationalized that if i block them it tells them I still care. It's very warped reasoning but eh lol Obviously for plot reasons it makes sense but Charlie does feel like the type to just ignore his bullies instead of block them (which mood) cause we do that IRL. We just let them say their piece, nod along without really acknowledging and move on. On a side note, thank you for the Fly Escapades. My cat does the same though i'm a lot less forgiving XD My dog is afraid of flies so we usually let my cat just kill them to save my dog's anxiety.
Ever since I saw someone point out in season one about how Tao's mom treats Elle like the girl she is, I've noticed how super inclusive she is of Elle. It's so wholesome to see how someone respectful who is just happy for her son and his long time crush becoming a relationship. I also LOVE how Sarah's desmissal of her son just escalates after the last scene with him being a "homophobic prick". It's a pretty decent way to subtly show Sarah's own growth of for one being more openly supprtive of NIck and also realizing that David is being an asshole. She went from "We're all happy you're home David." to "Do you have a girlfriend David? (NO? Didn't think so, so shush)". God I cannot wait for the Manorca Holiday :) It's gonna be great acting for all three of them and it will destroy all of us. Tao has some great growth in these final episodes and it's so nice to see him conquer his impulsive thoughts cause he has been controlled by them up to now. Tao acts so much on emotional impulse and while in some scenarios it can be good it is also a good idea to hold back your impulse and consider everything fully.
It is very complex dealing with everyone's relationship with Issac/James. Like you pointed out everyone just wants Issac to be as happy as them and as you even touch on with the person at teh exhibit. We live in a world where relationships and such are held in such high regard. It's the norm so no one really questions the alternative because Issac does really like James as a friend and James' feelings for Issac bleed into everyone else's perceptions. I'm so excited to see Issac's growth delved into more next season. I've also seen a ton of people compare Nick asking Charlie to Prom to the scene where Charlie asks Nick to go on a solo date at the smoothie stand. They both so adorably inquire about something they can do together but then get self-concious before the other says they'd love to. It's so cute how awkward they are with each other even when they know the other person would say yes. And everyone pooling in to buy Darcy's suit is one of the best things ever. I adore how supportive the group is for her even not knowing her home situation. Like they just genuinely want to support Darcy BEING Darcy, which of course comes up later. OK SO you mentioned how Issac didn't have a book when meeting James and it sparked something in my brain so I literally just went to Netflix and scrolled through the Paris trip. Majority of the time Issac is with James he isn't reading. When he's with James in the Library he's helping set up the bookstand, and as you can see Issac with everyone else is usually reading while walking and talking, but with James Issac usually has his finger bookmark the page and gives James his full attention. Which he does seem to do when he's having fun with the group as well taking pictures or walking with them on the bridge (Or later after prom). But it's always next to James that Issac seems to put his book on hold to give more attention. I might be looking into this WAY too deeply but it is a nice touch if intentional to show that Issac does really enjoy James' company even as great friends. I'm also pretty sure i mentioned this recently as well, I also wish they delved more into Issac's reaction after that scene cause it feels a little crazy that no one checks up on Issac between these scenes. So hopefully there is a scene in Season 3 where Issac does talk to at least a couple of them about how he's doing.
The Ben confrontation scene is so amazingly done. I do think hearing that Ben will be leaving is a big part of Charlie accepting that he can let his past with Ben go after this. And i saw someone on Tiktok zoom in on their hands and you see it takes Nick a second to let go. I dont know if it's intentional but it is pretty in character that Nick would be subconciously unwilling to let Charlie walk to Ben alone. Ben comes out with a lot of Self Revelation while also still being very dilusional to the point it makes sense he still walks away from his queerness. Sebastian does an amazing job showing Ben's emotions throughout, especially with the First Kiss comment. You can see how Ben's memories with Charlie are painted in a happy lens before Charlie takes off those glasses and says EXACTLY how his actions messed up Charlie for a long time. Ben knows that Charlie is an amazing person, the one good thing in his life, but doesn't realize that Nick and Charlie work because they are both good things in each other lives. Ben never understood the balance it takes and he's a great foil to Darcy as we've mentioned before. Darcy embraces his life outside her parent's gaze while Ben carries his cage everywhere he goes and allows it to ruin him. I also connect this back to Ben's conversations with Nick and specifically the part where he accuses Nick of poisoning Charlie's view of Ben. I think this moment also shows the moment where Ben realizes that Nick never did anything and Charlie's hate of Ben was entirely his own because those moments wouldn't be something Nick was privvy to and that emotion was something Charlie had already. I've also had those friendships where I do wish I could have that moment of "I'm glad you realize you're horrible and want to get better. And I hope you do. But I want no part of it in my life after everything you've done." There's a big stigma of forgiving people who ruin your life, even more so family, but there is nothing wrong with wishing the best for someone while also never wanting them in your life. I have had friends that have ruined aspects of my personality and affected how i see things, and while I have grown from that and learned a lot about myself from retospection I am downright afraid of those people trying to re-enter my life but I now have the strength and support like Charlie does to stand my ground and say I will never forgive you and I want you to live your life happily without me. Part 2 gonna be HYPE, can't wait for dinner lol
Thanks for sharing all your thoughts. I LOVE the idea that Isaac and James connect on a level that is compelling enough that Isaac doesn't even expect to read when they're talking, that he just wants to give him his full attention. That really underscores how special their friendship is.
Also, congrats on doing the hard work of dealing with the fallout of toxic people and moving forward. Sorry that happened, but working through that kind of experience promotes growth and resilience in a way that's hard to encapsulate.
Yeah it really adds to their relationship! And thanks, it happens but it def makes me appreciate my real friends more and grow as a person in different ways
Also, I think it is totally fine for Tao to express his feelings about Elle going to Lambert, AS LONG AS he makes it clear that it doesn't mean she shouldn't go, or that he would want her to forgo her dream for her. I think a talk like he had with Nick in Episode 8, may also be in order with Elle. She probably knows his dad died, but just to discuss it a bit more with her. (Also, so Elle can reassure Tao, that even if she is going to a semi-faraway school, she still is committed to them.). On another note, not sure how "far away" it can be, if Ben can easily get there, lol.
I think they had to take a train to get there? Which makes Ben following Charlie there even creepier.
I think I heard somewhere that it is meant to be in London proper. The Kent area is about an hour outside of London (by train), plus whatever extra time for transit through London to whichever quadrant Lambert happens to occupy. It's super-creepy that Ben followed Charlie there, and I believe that part of the reason Charlie was so vehement in his delivery of his rebuff is because he was so freaked by being stalked.
I think Elle reassured Tao about being committed to them/their friendship group through her art piece. That art room and those relationships in that room are solid forever because of his much the place and the people supported her through a tough time. New friends and a new environment won't take that away for her.
Wonderful format! I think where you chose to split works really thematically for the episode as well. It's such a jam packed episode, so cutting it here makes a lot of sense.
Regarding Nick's invitation, I think there's also a parallel to Charlie asking for a solo date with Nick during the milkshake triple date, and Charlie immediately undermining it. It's lovely to see examples of role reversals across both seasons.
I also agree with your analysis of Ben's apology. It think it was sincere, but was focused on his own state of mind and desires. He acknowledges that what he did was wrong, but does not even guess at how his behaviour may have made Charlie feel, or impacted his self esteem. Even a cursory "you deserved better" would have gone a lot further. Ben does say that Charlie was "something good," but again, it was in reference for Ben's desire for something good. He wanted to possess something good in Charlie.
It's a start, though. Big love and solidarity to your experiences, Thom. ❤
Thom, when Nick and Charlie set in the coffee shop with Nick’s dad, his dad scratched his right ear. In couple of seconds his phone was ringing……. A younger man with ,I think yellow shirt
was sitting couple table behind him was calling, I believe, Nick’s
dad……..
I’m sorry about it cause we love Nick and Charlie
It's an art showing they are going to have the artist by their work to answer questions 😂
28:31 that is an art installation of THE Tara Darcy Kiss in the background, isn't it? I'm sure that's not hinting at anything.
Wonderful reaction commentary, as usual, Thom, and I love that we're getting two parts for E7. As usual, you bring out thoughts I had in the back of my mind and explain motivations and that is so helpful.
I'm glad you specifically brought up about the jarring cut between the scenes with an upset Isaac to a happy Isaac. I do give Alice and Euros a lot of leeway for creative license in the show and having to be able to find a way to cram so much in to a short span of time. But in terms of this jarring cut, I do not give them any slack at all. This is such an important storyline, and this was like THE important moment for Isaac AND for Tobey as an actor - and that jarring cut diminished it exponentially.
We all were experiencing an emotional moment when Isaac excoriates his friends - i feel it was wholly appropriate and showcased Tobey's acting skills at their finest - but we needed a minute to allow us to continue feeling and appreciating that, and skipping to Isaac in a happy glow was just wrong. I agree, there needed to be one more scene, anything, just to let us fully drain ourselves from the emotion of Isaac's outburst. Yes, Charlie having a conversation with Isaac about that would have been good - he's already done so with Tao and with Tara, and Isaac definitely deserved that too. But, you know what? What about a quick scene between Isaac and his mother? Everyone else got to do one with their parent! This could have started with Isaac being upset and his mother helping him through it. Isaac ain't in the comics, so this couod have been written fresh by Alice. But even just some other transitional scene would have been helpful. It probably would have taken some creative juggling, but nothing is impossible. (And, btw, did you see Joe's interview in Hunger magazine online where he, shockingly, put down the execs at Netflix for actually not giving them the full budget they needed?).
I wonder if there actually was some big heated conversation between Alice, Euros, the editor, the Netflix execs, etc. over this cut. 🤔
The fact that this is divided into 2 parts means there going to be such discourse! 👏🏽
4:25 hahaha I love the chaos 🪰🪰
I agree about it being a shame there is no Olly in the dramatisation as I think part of the dynamic from the books I really liked was how much Olly loved Nick and Nick loved Olly, almost like a reflection of what is going on between Charlie and Nellie
Olivia Colman’s clapbacks in his season and Nick balancing the savage quota.
I have watched or am currently watching roughly 40 different reactors (I literally am only interested in HS reactions.) You, sir, are by far my favorite ❤
I really enjoy your perceptive, detailed, and nuanced deep dives into the Osemanverse. I'm so thankful you love the show as much as we do!
Same.
Elle’s piece for lambert mirrors the composition of the painting she stops to look at in the louvre in episode 5. With Elle in the place of Jesus.
Thom, I think this is your best (among many great) reaction videos. Your commentary on the program, particularly regarding Ben and your openness about your own similar experiences was wonderful. And the fly drama that you kept in (and even titled) is just amazing.
I enjoyed Loveless in the background of Isaac's bookstore scene. That is the first book in my life I have legitimately wished I could read again "for the first time." It's so beautiful. Also while the timing might seem convenient for Isaac learning about Aroace...how does anyone learn about it? I learned about asexuality on tiktok then spent months going through every forum, article, video, and even the Ace book that Isaac has at the end learning about the topic to realize that was me. And as you said, Isaac has been on this journey for a while, so he's been asking friends, reading queer books, sharing experiences, etc. I think it was just the word he needed to start exploring.
24:04 I also think the addition of a story consultant this season might be the reason more things feel "convenient" and a bit unlike how Alice writes. I like the pacing and how much they fit into each episode, and I understand they needed a pro to help achieve that, but sometimes that leaves us confused when characters act unOseman-like or situations have a different timbre to them.
Hooray for more videos! This is such a jam packed episode, I can't believe that's only half of it.
I do find it a bit weird that Nick thinks inviting Charlie and his whole family to a coming out dinner party is a good idea given that he knows food and stress are a bad combo for Charlie! I think it makes more sense where it sits in the graphic novels, but I can see why they brought it into this season. It does make me wonder how much of Charlie's behaviour Tori is aware of at this point. I think she might suspect more than she lets on.
The Elle art unveiling made absolutely no sense to me - I mean there are plot holes all over Heartstopper if you look too closely so I prefer not to! But it would have been really easy for her to have won some sort of competition or scholarship to explain why she gets special treatment.
Looking forward to part 2 when you are ready!
As wonderful and attentive as Nick is, I’m not sure he’s quite that attuned to the intricacies of Charlie’s ED at this point in the story. I could also see Nick naively hoping that with Paris and their coming out (basically) behind them, all is well with Charlie again… until the confrontation with Ben in this episode, and then the realization that Charlie’s still not eating properly.
@@normaladjacent Yes, you are quite right. And actually I think that's really typical of how people react to ED, culturally we are so used to putting food at the centre of big moments in our lives, people can be blind to how torturous that is for some people. It's really telling how 1) Charlie also, when talking to Tori, doesn't seem bothered by the invite. I think he is trying to convince himself it's in the past, and 2) It's Nick's mum who notices, not Charlie's. I can imagine 'Charlie doesn't have much of an appetite' is a phrase the family use without thinking much of it.
Great job on the video as always!! You got me thinking about so much... I have a theory on why Ben wasn't blocked... which is that Nick and Charlie wants him to see that they are happy. I think the friend group saw his facial expressions but they couldn't put two and two. I love how Sarah just ignores David, which shows how she doesn't let David control her emotions as she knows David way too well. Can't wait for the next video. I knew that prom wasn't going to be successful since Darcy is having that kind of mother who doesn't want her to become that person even though she already made that decision herself as she was her proper self at school
I agree with you on the Ben issue. I wonder if, as part of therapy, Charlie will write a more detailed letter to Ben and what reading that letter would do to Ben.
26:51 I think it's very convenient for the viewer to have this moment, not Isaac. I feel like they wanted to make sure the young viewers and the uninformed/unfamiliar viewers had some explanatory exposition. It did feel a bit clunky to me to have this bit here, but I know why they did it.
I agree - I've seen some reactors who had no idea about aspec and couldn't understand any of Isaac's actions even up until the talk at the art exhibit. In fact, I love how in your face the Ace book and it's subtitle in episode 8 is. That and the leaves around Isaac when he picks up the book. For some rectors that's the only point that they realise that Isaac may have a different sexuality and even what that is. As clunky as it is for us, I think it had to be wikihow spelt out to the viewers.
I would argue that the comments by Isaac's friends are not just ignorant, they're incredibly insensitive. They don't know what's going on with him, but that's the point. Sure, he happens to be going through the painful experience of trying to figure out his sexuality and his lack of attraction to James, but that's not the only reason he could be in distress. It could be that he liked James and found out that James didn't like him back. It could be that James and he were hanging out having a nice time and a homophobe made some assumptions about their appearance and interrupted their conversation with some upsetting words. It could be that he and James found out that they had fundamentally incompatible views on the world that caused their friendship to dissolve completely. The point is that, aside from Elle, everyone else made assumptions about what was supposed to happen at that meeting with James with NO basis for assuming something was going to advance their romantic storyline (sure, let's have our first kiss in a crowded bookstore, shall we?). They missed his distress, which could have arisen from any number of scenarios, and instead imposed their own narrative about what should have happened based on their own personal agendas. Heaven help Isaac if James had persisted in making unwelcome advances and ended up assaulting him - I couldn't even guess how Isaac would have reacted if he had come back to the group with that experience and been met with THAT oblivious reaction. The fact that they aren't tuned in is what's most hurtful here - Isaac has been quietly supportive to all of them, and here people are so invested in creating their own ideas of what Isaac's happiness should hold that they don't bother checking with Isaac first to see what's actually going on with him.
I agree that Isaac probably needed some alone time to process what happened without having to answer questions from or worry about one of his other friends, but boy do they ALL owe him an apology. If it had been me, I would not have appreciated someone pursuing me down the street after my blow up - I would have expected them to respect my request for space - but I certainly would have appreciated a check-in text or a virtual hug from the group chat. I, too, would like to assume that someone reached out to him and made things right before Elle's big night, and that Nick Nelson hug and his escorting Elle into the exhibition was the culmination of them working things out.
about Ben's speech: you can say Pretty Woman, it's okay lol
I like the split episodes! Great job as always Thom - thanks :)
The thing is with Ben, I feel like even if he was able to accept himself after this, if he worked on his behavior, came out, and finally found love and worked his way into having a happy ending for himself where he's no longer a dick and living a good life, he'd still be in danger of losing everything if his past behavior toward Charlie was exposed. It wouldn't matter if Ben was remorseful or took accountability because I doubt anyone would want to be associated with someone who's guilty of the things he did
It probably depends on the kind of people he finds in his life + his relationships with them. There are a lot of people who will excuse that kind of behavior, either because they love and trust the person a lot and truly believe that they’ve changed, or alternatively because they themselves don’t believe those things are that terrible or have even done things like that themselves. The former I think is human nature - the latter is just an unfortunate reality. For every person that’s been a Charlie (and there are a lot of us), there is a Ben or a reformed Ben out there.
So I kind of don’t agree he’d be in danger of “losing everything”, because I think that people are inclined to forgive people like Ben. And the system is designed to protect him. It’s rare for emotional abusers and people who commit the type of sexual assault Ben did to face any substantial level of accountability - especially if it happened when he was a teenager (“boys will be boys”). Which is why I think Charlie’s speech to him was really important. Losing Charlie and not ever being forgiven by him is probably the worst consequence he would reasonably face.
Ben gets no credit for anything. He chose to say the things he said because he thought it's what would work to get Charlie to forgive him so he can forget he was ever such a dick, instead of actually learning how not to be a dick, so he''ll probably continue to be a dick wherever he ends up next. (Funny, it's canon that Ben moves from Truham to Higgs right across the street, and they most certainly do see him again, in Solitaire. But I guess in the TV show canon, he's going somewhere farther away.) Charlie smelled the insincerity on him, and as you said, he saw how Ben still has his own whitewashed version of what happened in his head.
Hi Thom, be careful what you wish for. 🙂 You said that you are okay with Heartstopper themed essays so here is mine. I am at a kids birthday party and I don't know the people here. I didn't want to take out my kindle and read in front of all the parents so I decided to write an essay on my phone instead. I'm a terrible writer and I'm not a native English speaker so I hope I will be able to get my point across.
My opinions about Ben.
First of all, I want to say that I hate Ben for assaulting Charlie (who is my most beloved character, of course Nick is a close second), gaslighting him, completely ignoring his feelings and being a self absorbed narcissistic prick. But I also find him to be quite an interesting character. I don't want to make excuses for Ben, but he really was taken by surprise, when Charlie broke up with him. For him it was out of the blue. He was "dating" Charlie for almost 6 month and didn't see any reason for them to end things. Charlie rarely demanded anything from him and we know that Charlie didn't complain about Ben's behavior. Furthermore Ben apologized for ignoring him in public. I think that he may have had a girlfriend for the whole duration of their relationship and he didn't see any problem with that. He was kissing her in front of the school, where everyone was able to see him, so he wasn't afraid of Charlie catching him with her. The only reason for the breakup he could see, was the fear of getting caught. But he was obviously projecting. He thought that everything was as usual in their relationship. When he wanted to meet up, Charlie always came without hesitation. The breakup must have been a shock. When Charlie agreed to meet up with him after rugby practice he honestly thought that he was gonna change Charlie's mind without too much trouble. And when it didn't work as he imagined, he became desperate and thought that he needed to persuade him by any means necessary. He was not thinking rationally and forced himself upon Charlie. I would have liked it if Nick or maybe Charlie had beaten him up.
After that he continued to behave like an asshole who thought that what he did wasn't abominable. He even kept trying to punish Charlie for the breakup by undermining his confidence and self esteem while still thinking he could get back with him.
Furthermore, I would like to discuss my thoughts about Ben's sexuality. I honestly think that Ben is bisexual, however at first I thought he was gay. In the beginning of his relationship with Charlie he already knew he liked boys, because he was the one who approached Charlie, initiated their relationship and kissed him without hesitation and without actual consent. That makes me think that Ben may have already had some experience with a boy before Charlie. I think that if he were gay he would have figured it out after 6 month of dating Charlie. But by being bisexual he still couldn't decide who he really liked. It seems to me that he liked having a girlfriend and kissing a boy at the same time.
I understand that he could have dated girls only to hide his attraction to boys, but what unequivocally made me believe he was bisexual was his answer to Nick's question about him liking Imogen. I think he didn't lie. He could have said that he liked Imogen, but instead he said that he was allowed to like girls as well as boys. He just didn't like Imogen and was dating her, only because she pursued him and because he knew that it would irritate Nick.
In the end, I am happy that Charlie won't have to deal with Ben in the third season, but I would like to see Ben going to therapy, moving away from his homophobic parents and living with his lesbian aunt and helping LGBTQIA+ kids. That would give me closure and Ben his redemption arc. At least a little bit 🙂
Sorry for rambling, but the party took three hours.
I actually looked for Elle's painting on amazon. I thought maybe they would have made a poster out of it, but sadly, I could not find it.
Look at that scene with Tara Darcy Imogen and Sahar and you can see a silhouette of Tara and Darcy of them at Harry’s party in the background. Another reactor pointed it out and I find it very interesting Easter egg from season 1.
It’s not a thom video with out darla doing something chaotic 😂
I was disappointed when I saw this was under an hour... . Thank goodness it's only part 1 lol
PTSD is a bitch. I've had it with regards to a primary school bully. And it got triggered by the stress of the final leg of my degree and a very lovely fellow student I met with the same first name. I was having flashback and certain unwanted violent thought towards the former bully, even though I hadn't seen her for like a solid 10 years. I knew then I needed help, but I wanted to finish first, which I did. After I graduated I went to a paychologist and had EMDR. Worked like a charm, I don't have those symptoms anymore. She leaves me completely cold. Maybe in the future an idea for you Tom? I will warn you, it was very emotionaly draining, it also exposed other trauma which we dealt with after the bully and in that time I was very introspective about my reactions to certain triggers. Don't pull the wire on the sweater unless you know very surely that you are ready for a chilly day with no sweater😂
First, thanks as always for your efforts. On the Ben apology. I think he has a long way to go yet. Earlier in the season he tells Nick he apologised to Charlie, ( when we know he just asked if Charlie 'had finished sulking yet'). This apology has elements I think he truly believes but he is still so far off beam he really needs help but Charlie is in no way the one that can/should give it to him. Charlie speaks his truth and I hope there is some catharsis for him, indeed I hope there is some catharsis for Ben but I think he still has a lot of emotional development ahead and one can only hope he doesn't hurt anyone else. However, even with the glance at his parents we got I could see Ben becoming a Conservative MP who gets exposed in some sort 'Gay scandal' doing press conferences with a wife who swears to stick by him.
On a different note I don't know if you keep up with the webtoon but it makes me feel so seen. I come from very near where Alice comes from and went to a Boys Grammar School and today, ( in the webtoon), Nick went to visit Leeds University, ( great drawings by Alice of Leeds Uni and Leeds Market), which I went to, ( I actually went following a crush who went the year before, and wasn't really crushing on them anymore when I got there.) However I had a great time and still live in Leeds. I hope Charlie follows Nick, ( we Know from Nick and Charlie that Nick goes but we don't know if Charlie follows but I like to think so.)......................Please excuse my ramblings but I don't really have anyone to share my Heartstopper fanning with!
idk if you want spoilers for the post-comic future of Nick and Charlie (ignore the rest of this comment if not) but on your last point...
.
.
.
Alice has said that Charlie does not follow Nick to Leeds and ends up at UCL, which probably suits him better. They of course stay together though!
I hadn't seen that anywhere and in a way I hope she has a change of heart on that as it may be the most unrealistic thing she has written for them. I say this because that would take an enormous amount of character growth from Charlie given that within a year he goes from actually breaking up with Nick for the horrible two weeks in Nick and Charlie over the long distance to deciding they can do long distance for 3 years when they don't have to. I know I followed a crush, if I'd had a BF there is no way I'd have gone anywhere else. Especially not somewhere over 200 miles away. @@normaladjacent
That's pretty cool that Alice has been drawing those spaces that are so familiar to you! I think it would strike me as surreal. I'm always delighted to see Alice's renderings of architecture in the different locales.
Yes, you do have ppl to share your ramblings with … here!
Oh my goodness your story is so close to Nick and Charlie's!
Looking forward to part 2. Get some rest :)
An amazing actress is on my soap General Hospital & her being trans Isn't even an issue since her debut
2:17 Nick’s photos of Charlie leaking > Hillary Clinton’s E-mails
I also love a redemption arc. But, it would havebeen too easy and a cop out. When Ben walks away from the wave, his arc takes a different direction.
It has been announced that Bash will not be in season 3 so there is no chance of Ben making a reappearance
Hey Thom…. It is curious that Charlie and Nick made the agreement in Paris to share things with each other but Charlie does not tell Nick that Ben is trying to reach out to him to talk. What are your thoughts on that?
Pedantry perhaps, but ... 13:55 I don't think this is a backward pan. It's more of a backward traveling shot.
I know nothing about film terms, so please do not expect me to ever get them correct in any of my videos. 😆
Also, I always got the sense that pedantry was welcome on Thom's channel, having a place next to treatise, argumentation, and discourse. All in the spirit of mutual respect and passion for the subject, of course!
OMG flygate 😂 Just to cute 😊 😂
my god, i might have a crush on Thom after watching the flygate. WTF that was adorable
@@zagorskaewelina I'm with ya there 🏳️🌈
""I tried to save youuuu!"
"Oh, you're ALIVE! You're alive!! You're still alive!! "
"You're okay."
I melted. Thom has mentioned before that he saves flys but I didn't know THE AMOUNT OF DEDICATION, omg. 🥺
@@snoopy_J I melted day 1 of finding him reacting to #Heartstopper
Thom! Congrats on getting a video under an hour 😂😂😂
The fact that this was only achieved by splitting the episode in two should definitely be noted here. 😆
@@thom_is_trans😂😂😂💀
Without a doubt Ep. 8 is my favorite of S2.
Same, though it's hard to watch, well part 2 anyway.
Side note: I noticed that you can no longer see your clock! lol
I haven't read the books. I have a theory that Ben was the 1 who overheard Tao & Isaac cuz Ben has always stalked Charlie & made his move finding out he was gay 2. I'm sorry you had ro go through that yourself 😔 💛 💙
Sorry is banned 🤪 remember
Haha, I was just imagining all sorrys in this video, including the title, being bleeped out. 😄
I’m kind of glad that they didn’t add Oliver to the series.
I loved the dynamic that Ollie brought in the comics, but there's just SO much going on in the show that I can't see his role being anything substantive. Plus, the portrayals of Nick and Charlie are different enough in the show that the aspects of Nick and Charlie that Ollie evoked wouldn't have translated cleanly, in my opinion. Charlie is much more playful in the comic, and Nick is more open and impulsive and demonstrative. I think tonally a joyfully chaotic Ollie would have been out of place in the show, or at least distracting.
😂😂😂😂 5:26
I never looked closely at Sahar's bedroom but I'm noticing now that it's flooded with bisexual colours. Maybe we're all idiots for assuming she was straight 😅 Even more interestingly, is her shelf made out of a skateboard?
LET DARLA BE DARLA
Haven’t seen anything from Thom in a while! Hoping all is well with him ☺️
Same here! I figured he's been busy with the edits on his book, but then I realized it's been two weeks since he posted about that. And he's usually really good about hearting people's comments but you posted this three days ago. So Thom, if you're reading this please let us know you're ok. 🥰
I live! \(^O^)/ RUclips is very inconsistent about when it actually sends me new comment notifications, and since I haven't been checking, I've missed quite a few, it seems. In any case, I'm alive and well, just had my video-making efforts briefly waylaid due to real life and work getting in the way!
@@thom_is_trans take care and be well! We miss you and will see you soon! 🤗
and here I thought u managed to make a HS reaction under an hour … but alas, no. Lol. It’s okay though. It’s more fun this way. 😅
There definitely is a lot of big topics in Ep 7 so I don’t blame u. What happens in Darcy’s home was such a huge one for me, and very accurate as someone who grew up in a toxic and abusive home.
I appreciate u pointing out all the details for us. It was nice seeing Darla for a bit. Take care Thom.
Didn't Imogen and Sahar share a bed in Paris?
yep, they did!
@@zagorskaewelinaand that must have taken some scheming as initially it was a bad for Sahar and Elle...
@@bogumibogda3299 Well, Elle found another place to sleep first.... My question is where did Tara and Darcy sleep after they got Darcy all cleaned up? Did they just curl up on the floor?
I’ve definitely seen asexual people who are in relationships, two asexual people and one asexual and one gay person and they love each other without sexual being a part of their relationship.
I wouldn’t read too much into what Charlie said about if Nick didn’t ever want to have sex he wouldn’t either, I think he was just worried that Nick was feeling pressured to do more and just blurted that out which I think came off a bit immature.
Ben backing away from the rainbow concerns me that he will end up being another closer case who marries a woman and has kids to look “normal” and then cheats on her with men. I wish Charlie had softened a little before they walk away and he tells Ben that he will be much happier when he stops being afraid of what people think and to live his life for himself and not his parents.
That encouragement to Ben would have been lovely and gracious, but I just don't think Charlie's in a headspace where he can give Ben any grace. He's been so deeply scarred by what happened in ways that he's still trying to understand that he's going to need therapy and catharsis before he can take a step back and soften. That takes compassion, which I think is needed here for Charlie to be able to express that particular sentiment, and right now what Charlie feels is indignation.
Where is the video of episode 6 reaction
ruclips.net/video/bsyrJubp03A/видео.htmlsi=das4fuPe4fuLnNL_
Darla is an absolute darling! ❤
I’m a little disappointed you didn’t show a side-by-side with Elle’s piece and the famous piece that inspired it that she saw in the Louvre. I didn’t realize the foreshadowing and the inspiration that they did with that little moment in the Louvre until one of the reactors did put them side by side on screen. There’s a whole two episodes worth of show between the inspiration moment and the reveal, so it’s kind of hard to spot.
I mentioned the parallel when she was looking at the painting in the Louvre, so it slipped my mind to include it here since I'd already mentioned it.
@@thom_is_trans- Yeah, I had to go back and look to make sure it wasn’t your previous video I saw the side by side on before I sent my comment. I don’t remember who did it now. Thanks for making these in depth analysis videos, btw. Love how much you point out that I didn’t notice before. (Like the parallel for episode one in this episode)
Tao's and Nick's Mom ❤👑 Tao's mom knows Elle is trans but no questions just happy and yeah Nick's Mom ❤ tori slay🥳 and hi Darla 😻...and hey nicks dad, your son is happy , so!and Darcy's mom...disgusting...homophobic and racist and the spring nelson dinner now...hmm...it's in book 4 🤔 it's to early
Please, thom. More……
FIRST TIME WATCHING YOU! WOW. YOU INSPIRED ME TO GO BACK TO YOUR AWESOME REVIEW OF THE ENTIRE SHOW.
I Subscribed. Hit the Bell
POUNDED LIKE