@@thing_under_the_stairs oh, absolutely. But if he even noticed something about "nameless creatures" and "leave them alone" or "stay away", yeah, we all know what would have happened
When a master musician starts to tune their instrument, before the structure of the music itself, there are old, nameless sounds... unholy creaking of worn leather cases, disfigured and discoloured metal hinges, the unintentional scraping of finger over string. With an entire orchestra tuning, believe me, many nameless things are created, none intended to be part of the performance.
That is a VERY disturbing thought. If any creator is reading this, PLEASE be VERY careful if you feel like you need to clear your throat before you say "Let there be light"
I like how it suggests that even the Balrog wasn't okay with being there. I imagine it and Gandalf sort of teaming up until they get back to the places that arent horrible, then resuming the fight
When those two get scared, it must be of something unimaginably dangerous. Given how close Ungoliant came to outright killing Morgoth, the possibility that there may be monsters in the dark that would even humble the united Valar. Come to think of it, would that make sense in LOTR's deep future? Perhaps the final test of Man is to wage war against a horror that even the Valar can't defend themselves against? Just as, in the War of the Ring, Man demonstrated that they no longer needed the aid of the elves to protect and rule Middle-Earth?
Gandalf clearly feared or at least was cautionary when it came to these nameless things. To me, every time I read Gandalf's description of his battle with the balrog, it fascinates me. Here Gandalf is, fighting an enemy that only him and a select few older and wiser members of middleearth even know about, and this enemy is so powerful that even Gandalf is unsure he can stand up to its strength and then suddenly, very briefly Tolkien mentions that the battle sort of shifted from a battle to an escape. Clearly, the balrog knew those passages well, or at least well enough to get out of them and up to the top of the mountain. But at this brief point in the battle, both enemies are less concerned about fighting and more about getting the heck out of dodge. For one brief moment, instead of focusing on killing one another, they seem to be running. We don't know the balrogs' perspective, but it says that Gandalf clutched at its heel, his enemy was his only hope. This may just be because Gandalf knew he'd be hopelessly lost if he was left alone in these nameless places, but this brief moment also suggests that both of them were afraid, or at least cautious of what else may be down there. In order for Gandalf to have clutched its heel, literally or figuratively suggests that the balrog was fleeing something. What is never mentioned, but the fact that Gandalf was also concerned tells us it wasn't just fleeing from Gandalf. And if the creature knew those passages well enough to find the exit. It also suggests that it knew what else was down there. So briefly 2 of the most powerful beings in the world were fleeing or finding an exit instead of fighting. It makes you wonder what they could be fleeing from. This is the genius of tolkiens writing here. It's left up to some interpretation. Did they encounter a nameless creature that they both had to fleeing, if so what creature would be so dangerous that these two would have a temporary and unspoken truce as they fled. Or is Gandalf so strong that the balrog is trying to fleeing because it knows it's best chance of defeating him is to escape him and leave him in these uncharted passages that Gandalf tells us are without hope. Personally I don't think this balrog is all that afraid of Gandalf cause other than this brief passage. All they do is fight. Or perhaps it's just the uncertainty of it, maybe both Gandalf and the balrog didn't want to know what they may encounter down there. They were both probably capable of defending themselves if it came to it, but why find out. Sadly, we are told a few things from Gandalf, and he deliberately leaves things out because they would darken the light of day if mentioned. This section will continue to be one of the most curious and fascinating things in Tolkiens literature for me. Like I said it is left up to interpretation, even the age of these creatures. One could interpret that some of these nameless creatures are near gods themselves, since we are told they are older than sauron, and that sauron and the others were made first. In one interpretation of this, is that these creatures existed with illuvatar before he created anything. Perhaps these creatures enjoy darkness so much that when middle earth was made, they fled the light and went deep underground to hide from it. This may explain why the balrog knew those passages well and was unhindered mostly. The balrog is clothed in flame and shadow. Perhaps these creatures avoided him just like they dug deeper into the earth when dwarves and goblins found their homes in their passages. To avoid light. Who knows. The possibilities are fascinating, though. Another great video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I always wonder about the architecture of that all. They fall from the bridge, end up in some deep places far beneath the dwarven reaches, they go through the dark tunnels created by the nameless creatures, eventually flee back up to the lowest dwarf delvings and the base of the endless stair. So I'm not sure really. Do they fall straight down into the dwelling space of those nameless things? Do they land somewhere and just keep on fighting whatever way is possible until they accidentally stumble into those dwellings where even the balrog doesn't feel safe? Where they basically just decide to gtfo TOGETHER instead of fighting eachother. At some point they come back to some dwarven places and then find their way to the endless stair. I'm not sure really. Because supposedly those deep dwellings and tunnels are connected to proper Khazad dum by 1) free fall from the bridge 2) some conncetion beneath the endless stair/deeping delvings
I have a theory! In Christianity, sometimes demons can even hold a very eldritch/lovecraftian vibe to them. Perhaps since Tolkien was a devout Christian himself, I would assume he held the idea that evil is simply the absence of good, therefore if Eru Illuvatar is the ultimate God and good in the LOTR universe, maybe the nameless things are supposed to be the very manifestation of evil. In other words, this would explain them "existing alongside" Eru in the beginning. However since it is mentioned that only Eru was there in the beginning, I would like to think that they were perhaps naturally created when evil was introduced into Eru Illuvatar's creation. Since in Tolkien's story Eru made the universe and also by the Music of the Ainur, and that Eru gave the Ainur permission to create their own things, perhaps the nameless things could have been natural "offspring" of Melkor's/Morgoth's corruption since his creation did not align with the music/theme/will of Eru Illuvatar. Another thing to mention is that again, since Tolkien was a devout Christian, he most likely probably also held the idea that evil beings (demons/The Devil etc) had an ultimate despising for God's creation. Since these nameless things always crawl away from the light or out of creation/civilization, it could be that since they are the manifestation of evil when evil was introduced, they have an ultimate loathing for Eru's creation and Eru Himself, that's why they always crawl into the depths of Middle-Earth or live below Middle-Earth. Regarding the watcher in the water just outside Moria, it could either be another creature entirely or if it is one of the nameless things, then it just so happened to crawl out of the depths and lingering around in the area since it probably thought that the area was long abandoned already, either that or it (since being older than Sauron and being the ultimate manifestation of evil itself) could sense the One Ring and perhaps wanted to claim it for itself which would explain why it aimed for Frodo and grabbed Frodo instead of the others. Ofcourse I would say this theory has some flaws but I think this could be extremely plausible. What do you think?
there's also the possibility that the balrog wanted to get out of water-filled tunnels and into better terrain for it, and was then chased by Gandalf up the mountaintop afterwards
didn't he say driven, or came up willingly/was led there? I think there was implications the orcs may have helped goad/lure it there by making the area flooded by damming the river
I mean, for old things to gnaw at literally the oldest bedrock, they'd have to have (at minimum) teeth/claws _stronger than stone._ (and not flimsy limestone, but solid granite) If they could devour the mountain giants (from the film), then the Watcher, and perhaps even the Balrog, would've probably seem like tiny snacks.... (although ones that move much faster than bedrock, and annoyingly strike back occasionally)
@@BaneofGods Which, if you think about it, is a bit weird; there must be something otherworldly about that river/lake, normally a simple mountain stream doesn't have a passage into the underworld through which a giant kraken can make its way.
The Watcher in the Water scene (both books and films) is SO unsettling. It's easy to let it slide because so many important things happen directly after, but I agree that Tolkien did such an excellent job at leaving some unknowns to make the world more real.
@@evanseifert8858 very, very doubtful that the the Rawlinson and Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon and a Fellow of Pembroke College at Oxford was reading an obscure American publication known as Weird Tales. Lovecraft wasn’t famous until the 1970s.
@@MichaelEilers I'd hardly call Weird Tales obscure. It's generally considered one of, if not the, most famous and historically significant magazine(s) in the development of modern fantasy, both in and out of the US (according to Wikipedia there were editions published in the UK intermittently through the 40s and into 50s). While I doubt Tolkien was an avid reader of pulp magazines, I also imagine that from time to time someone with his interest literature and fantasy might have picked one up out of curiosity or if some story was being talked about in his literature circles. Overall I'd agree with what Robert said in the video; it's more likely that both Tolkien and Lovecraft took inspiration from some of the same sources, but it's not entirely impossible that he could have come across Lovecraft's work while writing LotR (the timing would actually line up perfectly with some of the earlier UK-published editions of Weird Tales) and taken inspiration for the Watcher.
I had missed this line in my memory. It is wonderful. The Balrog knew the ways, as it had used them over many thousands of years, but Gandalf might have been lost there indefinitely - until being overcome by such creatures. But the poetry should not be neglected.
I mean he even forgot the names of the two blue wizards that he came to the Middle-Earth with. Imagine going on a however week-long boat ride with four others, and you fail to remember the names of two of them.
What if... Both the Nameless Things and Tom Bombadil are remnants of the first song of the Ainur- the one that Melkor decided to change with his discord first and succeeded before Eru made new music, even more beautiful and intricate? That would explain Tom Bombadil's character - since it was the first attempt it must have been pretty naive, single-minded, crass even - that's why the parts of it (like Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant) seem to be very one-note, uncaring for anything besides their own nature (like Ungoliant's ever-growing hunger for example). It would also explain why they're so powerful - they were there first. The second, more intricate song that created the world and other races made them way more complex, but also weaker for it. How does that sound?
@@RogueAndroid yes and no. To the best of my knowledge Eru introduced a theme that the Ainur complimented with their music and Melkor succeeded in "corrupting" with his discord and then Eru stopped the music and introduced an even more beautiful and complex theme that Melkor tried to corrupt and failed at. So one creation song, but basically with a redo in the middle. My theory is that those Unnamed things and beings that are kind of "outside" the world and the story are remnants of that simpler, more "naive" tune - but they're stronger for it because they were made with purity and singlemindedness of a simpler tune of more inexperienced Ainur. Kind of like children's emotions are simpler bursts of energy compared to adult, more complex feelings that aren't so black and white.
@@RogueAndroid It's in the Ainulindalë in The Silmarillion. It was one great music that ended up with 3 different themes because of Melkor's attempts to disrupt it.
The Nameless Things are one of my favorite parts of the Legendariam. Keeping them mysterious and unexplained as a literary device was absolutely the right decision. They are far scarier when left wholly to the imagination.
Totally agree. Nowadays, fantasy is analyzed a million times over (nothing against good analyses like this channel, though). But fantasy originally was about awe and imagination. It´s why I believe Tolkien when he promotes humility. He´s massively systematic and needs to name and place everything; but includes "glitches" like Tom Bombadil who doesn´t have a place in the hierarchy, or the Nameless Things that don´t have a name. To me, it shows humility - knowing that even his labelling mania should have its limits 🙂 that we as humans don´t understand everything, and that there should be creatures meant for simple joy or fear.
It’s beautiful that these books that aren’t that far off from 100 years old were written in a way to continually create such wonder. Tolkien wove enough mystery and intrigue into the books that we have a constant stream of these videos exploring every aspect of his creation. You have to think that he would be very pleased with this fact!
I would love to think so. However, knowing how much of a perfectionist and idealist he was, he would be probably pissed that we are interpreting everything wrong. Much as he would completely disapprove all the films and series that have been made about his work.
@@SingingSealRianaYeah. She eats the two trees that are the source of light in the universe before the sun and moon get made. Maybe these things existed in the void before Eru Iluvatar sung the phenomenal world into existence. Clark Ashton Smith has an outer god type thing that's a giant spider, like Ungoliant. I can't recall the name right now. It's something like Atlach Nacha
His goal was to create a mythology for England, and a mythology must always have such creatures, because when we first descended from the trees and slept defenseless under the stars, and knew nothing of the world, our imagination ran wild in the dark and conjured terifying and unholy things lurking bellow. Even today, having explored the world, we still fear such creatures
7:14 in Elder Scrolls Lore. there's The Battle of Red Mountain. It was a very large battle at red mountain involving the dwarves, the chimer, the nords and the orcs that ended when all the dwarves suddenly disappeared, the sixth house was dissolved, Nerevar was dead, and there was a new religion in Morrowind . And the devs intentionally don't explain exactly what went down. Not only that, but they don't even have some secret hidden lore that says so. So they don't even know what happened, though each dev involved likely has their own ideas about it.
Always loved that part of TES lore, especially because of all the conflicting testimonies we hear and read when piecing the story of Lord Nerevar together. It is theorized that due to tampering with the heart of Lorkhan during the battle, a phenomenon known as Dragon Break occured, and all the different versions of events happened simultaneously. They all contradict each other, and yet all of them are true. Not for us mortals to know or understand. :D
I was looking for a comment like this. But that would mean the Nameless Things are Morgoth's creation, since only his singing is discordant with the rest of the Valar's Song. Could stoll be very possible though.
@@RogueAndroidI would say it was Eru Ilúvatar trying to show Melkor the dangers of creating life in selfish ways. Like how Aulë the Smith only created the idea of the dwarves so too did the creeping things when Arda was created. The only difference was their motivation behind the ideas.
@@RogueAndroid Since the Ainur had not yet visited Arda, then Melkor could have created these things and not know that he created them. Ungoliant, on the other hand, seems to have come from the place that Morgoth was eventually imprisoned. That would explain why she ate light.
I'm sure that Gandalf was talking about Sauron in his corporal form when he said that they pre-date Sauron. Gandalf seemed to have a hard time even recalling his life before coming to Middle-Earth, so it seems unlikely to me he was referring to that time.
I assume he meant Sauron from the time he came to Arda. Arda was created and then at some point the Valar and Maiar who chose to descended to it - we really don’t know how long that time period was. Maybe the nameless things were spawned there or came to Arda first. Probably same deal with Tom Bombadil.
When you take into account The Rings of Power. It is clear as they "level up" their recall gets better but much of it is murky there is only so much history one can experience before names, places and events are blended together as the cycles repeat.
@@SophiaAphroditewhy would you take that into account when interpreting Tolkien’s work? I like the RoP show, but it’s not Tolkien’s work and clearly deviates a lot.
When Sauron was first created by Eru, his name was Mairon, so it could literally have been Gandalf relating that the Nameless Things existed within Arda from the very beginning. The Elves came up with names like Morgoth and Sauron during the First Age to describe the eternal, angelic creatures made of thought after they had come into Arda.
"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. And hands too, hungry they are for hands." - Gandalf probably
I seem to recall that Gandalf doesn't have a full recall of his existence as an Ainur, and he may be ignorant of just how ancient Sauron, and indeed he, actually are.
The sense of magic and wonder you get when you read LOTR when characters pass by ancient ruin and forests is something you partiaally lose when you read through the Silmarilion. That feeling is fortunately kept when talking about the nameless things. And I am grateful for that😊
Arda is made by Eru Iluvatar, but it always seemed possible that other things existed in the void or as a side effect of the creation. Strange things that don't exactly fit in as they weren't precisely intended or finished.
This has kinda been my headcanon. I think Ungoliant is referred to as "descending from the dark" and it kinda made sense to me that whatever floated around in the void wound up in Arda during creation
Its crazy how Tolkien managed to fit so many character archs into his side characters. Gandalf learns and grows so much over the story despite being like a thousand years old and basically an angle. His POV couldve been its own novel. Aragorn has his full king story arch thats so well fleshed out and hes such a protagonist type character that even Sauron assumed he would get the ring. Even the more tertiary members of the fellowship like Legolas Gimli and the other hobbits have so much going on between others and on their own. Hell Gollum too. Any of these characters could be made the "main" character and it would still feel like a complete tale.
It's not only a play on the 'fear of the unknown' but goes even further than that for it being in the water - where we are hindered while they are in their element.
True. For all the vast mythology that we know of the Middle Earth, we know very little about water creatures, which is striking given that there are oceans and lakes all around. This is the only water creature I recall
Best video I've seen on the subject. My interpretation is that age sometimes means physical in-world age and sometimes not depending on who speaks. When it comes to Ungoliant, there's an answer that's pretty clear on where she came from to an extent but it still leaves more questions. She's supposed to have come from the darkness around Arda, which sounds very much like a fancy way of saying... space. She's an alien creature, potentially having come from the empty void Morgoth later got sent to. The implication is that there's actually more in early time (or outside time) which in a way predates what's written about the music in the Silmarillion. The Nameless Things may actually be something so old that a Maiar wouldn't know them well. Eru Illuvitar is obviously written as a god for Arda, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'd have control over other places outside it from before the Ainur. Ungoliant having come from a place that the Silmarillion doesn't mention existing in any detail and the Nameless Things being said by Gandalf (the same age as Sauron) as older than they were must mean that he knew they existed somewhere along the line but either never knew exactly what they were, or they were something so terrible and powerful that he was just terrified of them. That he'd choose a balrog as company sooner than be near them says a lot about how bad they'd have to be, and considering Ungoliant as the most similar thing, she became strong enough to threaten even Morgoth, a guy who could shape mountains as he wished. If Gandalf suspected any relation to her, it makes sense that he'd fear them. As an interesting note, there's a clear comparison between Ungoliant and later Shelob liking dark places and the Nameless Things also choosing to go so deep into the world that the word "roots" is used, sounding like they may have been in the core level of depth.
Ultimately, I think you're right. Tolkein likely made unnamed things vague for narrative reasons. But if we want to be pedantic, Eru *made* the Ainur first. It doesn't say there was nothing else before. So it could be reasoned that the nameless things were never made at all. They just were always there.
I Think it's Always Wise to Keep at Least Somethings a Mystery. It Leaves Somethings to the Imagination as a Way of Always Keeping the Fans Engaged well After All the Tales Have Been Told and the Stories are Over. Brilliant!
I enjoy the idea that differences in what Gandalf is saying and what's written in the Silmarillion are a result of everything being written as if it was a history that has been passed on throughout time. Something that is so old that some details from one history book to another no longer line up. No idea if it fits with the wider writings and knowledge. But, that's what pushes Tolkien's books to another level for me, the idea that they're not a story, nor are they factual. But, rather a history that's long forgotten and only remembered through these books that are written by real people of the time who wouldn't have had all knowledge or gotten everything right
My brother and I are having a great time bonding over these videos. We've never got on particularly well but these videos have brought us much closer together. People will laugh and scoff because it is fantasy, but it genuinely does help people escape and find solace, and your breakdown makes it so that people can understand without trying to read the books
"Scoff because is fantasy" - those people don´t know what they´re talking about. Middle-Earth and Narnia are like Lembas. They´re some of the few books of fiction that don´t just describe or ask questions, but give you non-dogmatic answers that sustain you your whole life. I know several people whom LOTR and/or Narnia have carried through some extremely hard times. Listening to LOTR and Narnia audiobooks was one of the very few reasons I didn´t kill myself after a horrible university shooting. Couldn´t sleep for 2 months and was losing my mind. Samwise Gamgee and Puddleglum kept me alive. So, just give these people the you-know-which finger 🙂
Just yesterday I rewatched the video about the watcher in the water - perfect timing! Thank you for your amazing videos. I love watching / listening to them before bed.
Robert, I can't find the traveller's guide videos and lots of other videos I loved. please, please reupload them. did Pippin save Middle-Earth, did Frodo curse Gollum and so on. ❤
Very inspiring video. The mysteries makes the universe more interesting. For comparison, George Lucas said that not even he knew where Yoda was from, that it was meant to be a mystery.
Can't wait for the words of command video. They've always intrigued me, what is the extent of their power, what can and cannot be done with commanding words?
Well done, as always. In a time when we have access to the entire surface of our world and all the information we have garnered at the touch of a screen we have lost sight of the great wonder and deep mystery of things unknown. For most of our species' existence this was not so. Tolkien's acknowleging deep mysteries beneath the surface is a brilliant device. And by only giving the reader just the smallest mention keeps the mystery whole. Truely wonderful.
I always loved this aspect of the legendarium, it’s what makes middle earth feel so old and vast, there’s a constant sense of great things lost to time. No other work really comes close, maybe dark tower, but that always feels pushed on the reader. Middle earth just is and was regardless of the reader.
Good point! For some reason, I get this feeling whenever I look at videos or photos of the Altai Mountains in central Asia. It always strikes me how old and wild the Earth is.
The greatest artists squeeze and trigger one thing!..a person's imagination, this includes leaving mysterious items for our personal imagination to chew over. Tolkien wrote for himself and then gifted us his story's to run with. Years later we are all still squeezing the imagination sponges he left. What a mind! What a gift!
"Older than Sauron" might not be strictly true. Maybe Gandalf meant "these creatures existed in Middle Earth before Sauron came to Middle Earth". Or maybe Gandalf just didn't remember that Sauron was a Maia. (Gandalf came to Middle Earth with his memory more or less wiped out and not remembering much about his life in Aman.)
Just stumbled onto your channel ; what EXCELLENT CONTENT! I’m incredibly impressed and also…. Entertained 😉 Your narration and knowledge of these books are incredible. You just acquired yourself a fan…
Another brilliant video. I've never heard of Lord Dunsany, but will be off to the National Library of Ireland to go down that rabbit hole. Thank you so much!
I always thought they were prototypes but Morgoth that he abandoned because he’s either embarrassed by his failure or because he’s wary of what he created
well, since evil cant create and only corrupt i suppose we would have names of them if they were to be corrupted by morgoth. i´d rather believe, that they have just like tom bombadil always been.
Morgoth couldn’t create life. Only Eru could. And Eru created sentient Earth life based on the blueprint that was the Music of the Ainur. Morgoth sewed more than enough discord within the music to result in these “nameless things.”
Fascinating video. Not big lore expert when it comes to Tolkien works, but it is one of my favorite settings. I’ve always wondered about these nameless things. Ever since I saw fellowship in the early 2000s, it has been like a slight but persistent scratch in the back of my head. “I wonder what those are. How did Gandalf fall but end up fighting the balrog on what looked like a snowy peak? Why are they…gnawing?” At the very least, you have sparked my curiosity again and gave me something to think about for a couple more hours.
Glad you covered this! I was just about ready to give in and watch this topic on some other channel that got recommended to me. Now I can hear it in perhaps my favorite voice on RUclips, and with the best script to support it 😉
There seems to be a lot of similarities between Ungoliant and the nameless things. The endless gnawing at the earth seems to ascribe to them a hunger similar to Ungoliants ceaseless hunger, and being far older than most other things in the world, preferring the dark shadowy corners of the world over the places where the other creatures liked to gather and dwell. I feel Ungoliant may have been this class of creature, but her hunger caused her to amass power, which caused greater hunger and made her enough of a presence in the world that she was given a name
In much the same way there was no Gandalf before that entity was sent to the world - Gandalf without memories of before then? was effectively a new being. A Tuvix.
I actually came to the same conclusion as Tolkien on my own. One of my favorite things about Hollow Knight, one of my favorite games, is that not everything is explained. Where did the Pale King go? Is he dead? Are there other civilations outside Hollownest? Are they all dead, or do some still survive? What are Wyrms? Is Hornet Void? Games become boring if you've done everything and know everything. But what Doesn't get boring, is hypothesizing and theorizing on what was introduced but never explained. That is what keeps you interested.
I think a big part of the appeal of Tolkiens work is that mystery aspect, allowing room for the readers to discover and uncover truths about the world he built and give it more colour, shape and dimension. To this day I love hearing about peoples interpretation of Tom Bombadil and what meaning we can get from his existence.
I love how we are introduced to several layers of darkness and evil in Moria. First, the wild orcs that slaughtered the last remnants of the dwarven kingdom in a terrifying way (as told in the dreary and ominous last chapter of Mazarbul's Book) and now infest the city's darkest places. Then, these orcs immediately flee when confronted with an even darker evil: an ancient and powerful demigod, the Balrog that was accidentally awaken in the depths of Khazad-Dûm and now roams free. And then, we know from Gandalf that even the mighty Balrog himself feels uneasy and tries to escape when in the presence of the lovecraftian Nameless Things that inhabit the deepest uncharted levels of the mountain and probably the world. It all builds up in such a satisfying and scary way.
I saw them are things outside of Eru's creation. Like the vermin in Illuvatar's basement that creeped into Arda. Ungoliant being the spider in His closet. Illuvatar is a creator god, but himself existed before Arda. Why not other things? That would qualify them as older than Sauron, a creation of Illuvatar before the creation of Arda.
I do support the idea that tom bombadil is one of these nameless things. My theory is when eru and the ainur were singing ardha into existence, and then melchor sang those discordant notes, those distortions created the namelesss things, however unintentionally
Those creatures are one of the few times Jackson completely went off the rails. Such creatures are never mentioned in The Hobbit, or anywhere else for that matter. He needed an element at which the orcs could suddenly come upon the scene and made up this as his sollution.
If the orcs (or Sauron) could have controlled those worms - then all castles/fortresses would have been meaningless. Such a silly (probably not sense-checked) idea should have been abandoned on the cutting room floor.
Can you do a video on the nature of prophecy in middle earth, tree beards monologue on the last march of the ents, doom and prophecy unfulfilled is still one of the most powerful moments in the story for me.
The timing of this popping up in my feed is so good, I'm literally in the middle of rings of power and arondir just said the thing about there being many unnamed things lying deep in this world
Wonderful video! I really enjoy these deep dives you do (even if I'm only watching the Tolkien ones), and I'm astounded you're able to put so much time into research and writing! This really is top-notch! Can't wait for the next one! You mention Tom Bombadil again, and he may be my favourite character in all of Tolkien's work. He's also one of the characters I feel was neglected, rather than only enigmatic. "Leave them wanting more!" P.T. Barnum said, but even with "The adventures of Tom Bombadil", I think that even a proper children's book with actual stories, or a short novel, maybe set in the time when he met Goldberry, would have been a great addition, rather than a detraction. Tolkien hadn't even have to mention his origin or more than vaguely mention his long wanderings before this point. This is my lament, anyway. Keep up the good work! ❤
tolken was on point. the unknown drives a reader's imagination. this is kind of why i really enjoy stories such as BLAME!. stories mostly told through show not tell, there is very little dialogue. and, the lack of knowledge majority of characters have of their own world helps sell the idea of a dwindling civilization.
Rather than just an exploration of a legendarium, this is first-rate literary criticism. It does Tolkien's work and legacy as proud as anything I've encountered.
Yes, I have a degree in literature and this channel satisfies even my taste 😄 It recognizes and respects the depth of Tolkien´s writing, and I can respect that.
@@martavdz4972 I think Tolkien, like Frodo, has too little honor among his own people. Academics may have a bit of condescension towards fantasy, and I can understand that, but I think in time LOTR will take its place next to Gatsby and others as one of the great works of fiction of the twentieth century.
I had a thought similar to some here but with a difference... Every music piece has notes it does not use for whatever reason. Even if not used...they still exist, somewhere...in some form or other
I think part of the magic, and wonder, and call of Middle Earth is Tom Bombadil, and the nameless things ect. Are left to us the reader ( the adventurer ) to form and mold and place into the story. It makes me feel as if I'm part of the story, not just a bystander. That's the magic of books to me, let me shape the nameless things. Let me come to the conclusion of where the entwives went, let me explore who and what Tom is ❤❤ JRRT was a genius
This passage always makes me think of the tomb of the Mayan king Pakal. There was a relief carved on the lid of his coffin, showing the king falling into the jaws of the underworld (or at least thats the interpretation I learned)
Good thing the dwarves only woke up a balrog by digging too deep. Had Durin's Bane decided to hide out somewhere else, we might've had to deal with Cthulhu's discarded tissues chasing the fellowship through Moria and that would be exactly as gross as it sounds.
It's a little out o scope for this channel, but an exploration of Dunsany's influence on the genre and Tolkien in particular would be most welcome. Just discovered King of Elfland's Daughter last year
I think we've been learning or reading from the world and cosmology from one point of view, what if there were things that were in existence not created by Eru. So technically the Ainur were the first things in existence from Eru, before all else that was made by Eru. But what if there were other things in exitence along side Eru and because of these things he wanted his creations to be safe from them and thus created a world of order and relatively safety by rounding up a bunch of these nameless things and sticking them down where they wouldn't interact with his creations.
There's also a reason why people love games such as the souls series. Alot of the lore in that game is given indirectly and mostly up to the player to decipher. Humans at our core are naturally curious and maybe that curiosity is a very desired thing in this age of readily available answers with just a google search.
Good call from Gandalf, not mentioning them again. Otherwise, Pippin would have found a way to free and anger them
Absolutely. And it would have been entirely accidental.
@@thing_under_the_stairs oh, absolutely. But if he even noticed something about "nameless creatures" and "leave them alone" or "stay away", yeah, we all know what would have happened
@@raskirorikson1104 What would have happened:
Pippin: "Oops!"
Gandalf: "Fool of a Took!"
Fellowship: "Fuck, not again!"
It's a good thing he did that too,because as we all know Gandalf doesn't like TOLKIEN about it!
“Gandalf the Grey? Sure I know a Gandalf! He’s right over there!”
When a master musician starts to tune their instrument, before the structure of the music itself, there are old, nameless sounds... unholy creaking of worn leather cases, disfigured and discoloured metal hinges, the unintentional scraping of finger over string. With an entire orchestra tuning, believe me, many nameless things are created, none intended to be part of the performance.
Yeah, but it was only Eru at the start, and no one was practicing as far as we know. Love the imagery evoked here, tho 👍🏻
I think we have a case here ☝️😁
So....middle earth has monsters because Eru forgot to tune his fiddle?
I like that ;)
That is a VERY disturbing thought. If any creator is reading this, PLEASE be VERY careful if you feel like you need to clear your throat before you say "Let there be light"
The blind instrument maker
I like how it suggests that even the Balrog wasn't okay with being there. I imagine it and Gandalf sort of teaming up until they get back to the places that arent horrible, then resuming the fight
Balrog: Time out! TIME OUT! I think we’re in a bad neighborhood…
When those two get scared, it must be of something unimaginably dangerous. Given how close Ungoliant came to outright killing Morgoth, the possibility that there may be monsters in the dark that would even humble the united Valar.
Come to think of it, would that make sense in LOTR's deep future? Perhaps the final test of Man is to wage war against a horror that even the Valar can't defend themselves against? Just as, in the War of the Ring, Man demonstrated that they no longer needed the aid of the elves to protect and rule Middle-Earth?
@@Cailus3542 nice cooking, I like it
@@Abdega "Hey, Wizard man, I'm all for fighting you but you realize we've just entered Detroit city limits, yes?"
"SHit yeah man, let's leave"
Drizzt & Artemis
Gandalf clearly feared or at least was cautionary when it came to these nameless things. To me, every time I read Gandalf's description of his battle with the balrog, it fascinates me.
Here Gandalf is, fighting an enemy that only him and a select few older and wiser members of middleearth even know about, and this enemy is so powerful that even Gandalf is unsure he can stand up to its strength and then suddenly, very briefly Tolkien mentions that the battle sort of shifted from a battle to an escape. Clearly, the balrog knew those passages well, or at least well enough to get out of them and up to the top of the mountain. But at this brief point in the battle, both enemies are less concerned about fighting and more about getting the heck out of dodge. For one brief moment, instead of focusing on killing one another, they seem to be running.
We don't know the balrogs' perspective, but it says that Gandalf clutched at its heel, his enemy was his only hope. This may just be because Gandalf knew he'd be hopelessly lost if he was left alone in these nameless places, but this brief moment also suggests that both of them were afraid, or at least cautious of what else may be down there. In order for Gandalf to have clutched its heel, literally or figuratively suggests that the balrog was fleeing something. What is never mentioned, but the fact that Gandalf was also concerned tells us it wasn't just fleeing from Gandalf. And if the creature knew those passages well enough to find the exit. It also suggests that it knew what else was down there.
So briefly 2 of the most powerful beings in the world were fleeing or finding an exit instead of fighting. It makes you wonder what they could be fleeing from. This is the genius of tolkiens writing here. It's left up to some interpretation. Did they encounter a nameless creature that they both had to fleeing, if so what creature would be so dangerous that these two would have a temporary and unspoken truce as they fled. Or is Gandalf so strong that the balrog is trying to fleeing because it knows it's best chance of defeating him is to escape him and leave him in these uncharted passages that Gandalf tells us are without hope.
Personally I don't think this balrog is all that afraid of Gandalf cause other than this brief passage. All they do is fight. Or perhaps it's just the uncertainty of it, maybe both Gandalf and the balrog didn't want to know what they may encounter down there. They were both probably capable of defending themselves if it came to it, but why find out. Sadly, we are told a few things from Gandalf, and he deliberately leaves things out because they would darken the light of day if mentioned.
This section will continue to be one of the most curious and fascinating things in Tolkiens literature for me. Like I said it is left up to interpretation, even the age of these creatures. One could interpret that some of these nameless creatures are near gods themselves, since we are told they are older than sauron, and that sauron and the others were made first. In one interpretation of this, is that these creatures existed with illuvatar before he created anything. Perhaps these creatures enjoy darkness so much that when middle earth was made, they fled the light and went deep underground to hide from it. This may explain why the balrog knew those passages well and was unhindered mostly. The balrog is clothed in flame and shadow. Perhaps these creatures avoided him just like they dug deeper into the earth when dwarves and goblins found their homes in their passages. To avoid light. Who knows. The possibilities are fascinating, though. Another great video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I always wonder about the architecture of that all. They fall from the bridge, end up in some deep places far beneath the dwarven reaches, they go through the dark tunnels created by the nameless creatures, eventually flee back up to the lowest dwarf delvings and the base of the endless stair.
So I'm not sure really. Do they fall straight down into the dwelling space of those nameless things? Do they land somewhere and just keep on fighting whatever way is possible until they accidentally stumble into those dwellings where even the balrog doesn't feel safe? Where they basically just decide to gtfo TOGETHER instead of fighting eachother. At some point they come back to some dwarven places and then find their way to the endless stair. I'm not sure really. Because supposedly those deep dwellings and tunnels are connected to proper Khazad dum by 1) free fall from the bridge 2) some conncetion beneath the endless stair/deeping delvings
That was one helluva paper ya just wrote. I much enjoyed your interesting speculations though. I give it an 🅰️❗
I have a theory!
In Christianity, sometimes demons can even hold a very eldritch/lovecraftian vibe to them.
Perhaps since Tolkien was a devout Christian himself, I would assume he held the idea that evil is simply the absence of good, therefore if Eru Illuvatar is the ultimate God and good in the LOTR universe, maybe the nameless things are supposed to be the very manifestation of evil. In other words, this would explain them "existing alongside" Eru in the beginning.
However since it is mentioned that only Eru was there in the beginning, I would like to think that they were perhaps naturally created when evil was introduced into Eru Illuvatar's creation. Since in Tolkien's story Eru made the universe and also by the Music of the Ainur, and that Eru gave the Ainur permission to create their own things, perhaps the nameless things could have been natural "offspring" of Melkor's/Morgoth's corruption since his creation did not align with the music/theme/will of Eru Illuvatar.
Another thing to mention is that again, since Tolkien was a devout Christian, he most likely probably also held the idea that evil beings (demons/The Devil etc) had an ultimate despising for God's creation. Since these nameless things always crawl away from the light or out of creation/civilization, it could be that since they are the manifestation of evil when evil was introduced, they have an ultimate loathing for Eru's creation and Eru Himself, that's why they always crawl into the depths of Middle-Earth or live below Middle-Earth.
Regarding the watcher in the water just outside Moria, it could either be another creature entirely or if it is one of the nameless things, then it just so happened to crawl out of the depths and lingering around in the area since it probably thought that the area was long abandoned already, either that or it (since being older than Sauron and being the ultimate manifestation of evil itself) could sense the One Ring and perhaps wanted to claim it for itself which would explain why it aimed for Frodo and grabbed Frodo instead of the others.
Ofcourse I would say this theory has some flaws but I think this could be extremely plausible. What do you think?
Awesome comment, I enjoyed reading it!
there's also the possibility that the balrog wanted to get out of water-filled tunnels and into better terrain for it, and was then chased by Gandalf up the mountaintop afterwards
When Gandalf says that the watcher in the water was driven up makes me think that it is on low end of the food chain down there.
That's.... ominous. I'm sure its fine. No worries. Just smoke more pipeweed.
didn't he say driven, or came up willingly/was led there? I think there was implications the orcs may have helped goad/lure it there by making the area flooded by damming the river
I mean, for old things to gnaw at literally the oldest bedrock, they'd have to have (at minimum) teeth/claws _stronger than stone._
(and not flimsy limestone, but solid granite)
If they could devour the mountain giants (from the film), then the Watcher, and perhaps even the Balrog, would've probably seem like tiny snacks....
(although ones that move much faster than bedrock, and annoyingly strike back occasionally)
@@BaneofGods Which, if you think about it, is a bit weird; there must be something otherworldly about that river/lake, normally a simple mountain stream doesn't have a passage into the underworld through which a giant kraken can make its way.
If driven, the I would conjecture that it was the fire of the Balrog that drove it. It opted to live in the water. Probably didn't like fire too much.
The Watcher in the Water scene (both books and films) is SO unsettling. It's easy to let it slide because so many important things happen directly after, but I agree that Tolkien did such an excellent job at leaving some unknowns to make the world more real.
Jackson slid a little Chtulu in there, methinks, and why wouldn’t a master of modern horror like himself do so?
@@MichaelEilers I would say that even Tolkien slid a little Cthulu in there.
@@evanseifert8858 very, very doubtful that the the Rawlinson and Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon and a Fellow of Pembroke College at Oxford was reading an obscure American publication known as Weird Tales. Lovecraft wasn’t famous until the 1970s.
@@MichaelEilers I'd hardly call Weird Tales obscure. It's generally considered one of, if not the, most famous and historically significant magazine(s) in the development of modern fantasy, both in and out of the US (according to Wikipedia there were editions published in the UK intermittently through the 40s and into 50s). While I doubt Tolkien was an avid reader of pulp magazines, I also imagine that from time to time someone with his interest literature and fantasy might have picked one up out of curiosity or if some story was being talked about in his literature circles. Overall I'd agree with what Robert said in the video; it's more likely that both Tolkien and Lovecraft took inspiration from some of the same sources, but it's not entirely impossible that he could have come across Lovecraft's work while writing LotR (the timing would actually line up perfectly with some of the earlier UK-published editions of Weird Tales) and taken inspiration for the Watcher.
@@alekssavic1154 you’re just speculating. Come back when you have proof. Thanks for wasting our time though.
_in that despair, my enemy was my only hope_
I had missed this line in my memory.
It is wonderful. The Balrog knew the ways, as it had used them over many thousands of years, but Gandalf might have been lost there indefinitely - until being overcome by such creatures.
But the poetry should not be neglected.
I was all a circuitous cover-up by Gandalf to hide the embarrassing fact that he forgot their names.
"Hey could you introduce yourself? I met these guys 1500 years ago and never caught their names. Now it's this whole thing."
"i have no memory of that place either..."
I mean he even forgot the names of the two blue wizards that he came to the Middle-Earth with. Imagine going on a however week-long boat ride with four others, and you fail to remember the names of two of them.
@@masansrHe was in a human/mortal body and lived hundreds of years so that’s why his memory was fried
The two Blue Wizards are now included in the Namless Things of Middle Earth lmao.
What if... Both the Nameless Things and Tom Bombadil are remnants of the first song of the Ainur- the one that Melkor decided to change with his discord first and succeeded before Eru made new music, even more beautiful and intricate? That would explain Tom Bombadil's character - since it was the first attempt it must have been pretty naive, single-minded, crass even - that's why the parts of it (like Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant) seem to be very one-note, uncaring for anything besides their own nature (like Ungoliant's ever-growing hunger for example). It would also explain why they're so powerful - they were there first. The second, more intricate song that created the world and other races made them way more complex, but also weaker for it.
How does that sound?
Best theory I’ve ever heard my internet friend! 🙏🙌
Wait, was there more than one Valar Creation Song?
@@RogueAndroid yes and no. To the best of my knowledge Eru introduced a theme that the Ainur complimented with their music and Melkor succeeded in "corrupting" with his discord and then Eru stopped the music and introduced an even more beautiful and complex theme that Melkor tried to corrupt and failed at. So one creation song, but basically with a redo in the middle. My theory is that those Unnamed things and beings that are kind of "outside" the world and the story are remnants of that simpler, more "naive" tune - but they're stronger for it because they were made with purity and singlemindedness of a simpler tune of more inexperienced Ainur. Kind of like children's emotions are simpler bursts of energy compared to adult, more complex feelings that aren't so black and white.
I’ve had this same thought too. Plus it makes sense if you look at the line when they call Tom oldest and fatherless.
@@RogueAndroid It's in the Ainulindalë in The Silmarillion. It was one great music that ended up with 3 different themes because of Melkor's attempts to disrupt it.
The Nameless Things are one of my favorite parts of the Legendariam. Keeping them mysterious and unexplained as a literary device was absolutely the right decision. They are far scarier when left wholly to the imagination.
Totally agree. Nowadays, fantasy is analyzed a million times over (nothing against good analyses like this channel, though). But fantasy originally was about awe and imagination.
It´s why I believe Tolkien when he promotes humility. He´s massively systematic and needs to name and place everything; but includes "glitches" like Tom Bombadil who doesn´t have a place in the hierarchy, or the Nameless Things that don´t have a name. To me, it shows humility - knowing that even his labelling mania should have its limits 🙂 that we as humans don´t understand everything, and that there should be creatures meant for simple joy or fear.
It’s beautiful that these books that aren’t that far off from 100 years old were written in a way to continually create such wonder. Tolkien wove enough mystery and intrigue into the books that we have a constant stream of these videos exploring every aspect of his creation. You have to think that he would be very pleased with this fact!
I would love to think so. However, knowing how much of a perfectionist and idealist he was, he would be probably pissed that we are interpreting everything wrong. Much as he would completely disapprove all the films and series that have been made about his work.
I’ve always seen them and Ungoliant as being the closest Tolkien has come to emulating Lovecraft.
Ungoliant also has eiry similarities with a black hole, given those where not really known at the time, really curious
@@SingingSealRiana They where theorical since 1905, so a academist as Tolkien could know about them before than regular people.
@@SingingSealRianaYeah. She eats the two trees that are the source of light in the universe before the sun and moon get made. Maybe these things existed in the void before Eru Iluvatar sung the phenomenal world into existence.
Clark Ashton Smith has an outer god type thing that's a giant spider, like Ungoliant. I can't recall the name right now. It's something like Atlach Nacha
His goal was to create a mythology for England, and a mythology must always have such creatures, because when we first descended from the trees and slept defenseless under the stars, and knew nothing of the world, our imagination ran wild in the dark and conjured terifying and unholy things lurking bellow.
Even today, having explored the world, we still fear such creatures
@@asierurteagaaguirre3462 "dark stars" from which no light could escape were theorized to exist as early as the 1780s
7:14 in Elder Scrolls Lore. there's The Battle of Red Mountain. It was a very large battle at red mountain involving the dwarves, the chimer, the nords and the orcs that ended when all the dwarves suddenly disappeared, the sixth house was dissolved, Nerevar was dead, and there was a new religion in Morrowind
. And the devs intentionally don't explain exactly what went down. Not only that, but they don't even have some secret hidden lore that says so. So they don't even know what happened, though each dev involved likely has their own ideas about it.
Always loved that part of TES lore, especially because of all the conflicting testimonies we hear and read when piecing the story of Lord Nerevar together. It is theorized that due to tampering with the heart of Lorkhan during the battle, a phenomenon known as Dragon Break occured, and all the different versions of events happened simultaneously. They all contradict each other, and yet all of them are true. Not for us mortals to know or understand. :D
It is speculated that a Dragon Break occurred during the battle of Red Mountain when the Dwemer attempted the activation of Numidium.
There's an interesting theory that says they are a by-product of the discord in the music.
I was looking for a comment like this. But that would mean the Nameless Things are Morgoth's creation, since only his singing is discordant with the rest of the Valar's Song.
Could stoll be very possible though.
babies conceived while hillbillies made love to hank williams jr
@@RogueAndroidI would say it was Eru Ilúvatar trying to show Melkor the dangers of creating life in selfish ways. Like how Aulë the Smith only created the idea of the dwarves so too did the creeping things when Arda was created. The only difference was their motivation behind the ideas.
@@RogueAndroid Since the Ainur had not yet visited Arda, then Melkor could have created these things and not know that he created them. Ungoliant, on the other hand, seems to have come from the place that Morgoth was eventually imprisoned. That would explain why she ate light.
Good point
I'm sure that Gandalf was talking about Sauron in his corporal form when he said that they pre-date Sauron. Gandalf seemed to have a hard time even recalling his life before coming to Middle-Earth, so it seems unlikely to me he was referring to that time.
I assume he meant Sauron from the time he came to Arda. Arda was created and then at some point the Valar and Maiar who chose to descended to it - we really don’t know how long that time period was. Maybe the nameless things were spawned there or came to Arda first. Probably same deal with Tom Bombadil.
When you take into account The Rings of Power. It is clear as they "level up" their recall gets better but much of it is murky there is only so much history one can experience before names, places and events are blended together as the cycles repeat.
@@SophiaAphroditewhy would you take that into account when interpreting Tolkien’s work? I like the RoP show, but it’s not Tolkien’s work and clearly deviates a lot.
When Sauron was first created by Eru, his name was Mairon, so it could literally have been Gandalf relating that the Nameless Things existed within Arda from the very beginning. The Elves came up with names like Morgoth and Sauron during the First Age to describe the eternal, angelic creatures made of thought after they had come into Arda.
@@joels5150 There are other places in The Lord of The Rings where Tolkien is hyper-exact like that: The Witch King and "No Man am I"
I'm going to call one of them 'Carl'.
CAAAAAAAAAAAAARL
"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. And hands too, hungry they are for hands." - Gandalf probably
Keith’s a nice name.
I quite like "Bob"... 🤔🤣
And I’ll call another one “Dave.”
Aren’t these the things that Gandalf and the balrog both looked at and then ran away together?
"I don't have to run faster than these monsters, I just have to run faster than you"
-the Balrog probably
Damn. The difference between complexities and over complication. Genius level of thought to have created in this way.
7:44 the 2 hour pre tolkien fantasy video is truly great
I seem to recall that Gandalf doesn't have a full recall of his existence as an Ainur, and he may be ignorant of just how ancient Sauron, and indeed he, actually are.
Frodo: Gandalf… just how old are you?
Gandalf: That’s a good question… yes?
The sense of magic and wonder you get when you read LOTR when characters pass by ancient ruin and forests is something you partiaally lose when you read through the Silmarilion. That feeling is fortunately kept when talking about the nameless things. And I am grateful for that😊
Arda is made by Eru Iluvatar, but it always seemed possible that other things existed in the void or as a side effect of the creation. Strange things that don't exactly fit in as they weren't precisely intended or finished.
Before the first brush stroke there was a canvas. What's Eru hiding from us?
@@JohnnyWednesdayArda is simply the latest in a long line of failed projects, the next won’t be any better
@@gargoyles9999Arda hasn’t failed or succeeded, it simply goes to the rhythm that created it.
@@Fireclaws10 - oh here we go. Yet more propaganda from the Arda Lobby. What has the ground ever done for us?
This has kinda been my headcanon. I think Ungoliant is referred to as "descending from the dark" and it kinda made sense to me that whatever floated around in the void wound up in Arda during creation
1:15 I really love that language. Gnawing makes me think of the 'bones of the earth' getting chewed on by unfathomable sorts
Its crazy how Tolkien managed to fit so many character archs into his side characters. Gandalf learns and grows so much over the story despite being like a thousand years old and basically an angle. His POV couldve been its own novel. Aragorn has his full king story arch thats so well fleshed out and hes such a protagonist type character that even Sauron assumed he would get the ring. Even the more tertiary members of the fellowship like Legolas Gimli and the other hobbits have so much going on between others and on their own. Hell Gollum too. Any of these characters could be made the "main" character and it would still feel like a complete tale.
Thanks Robert, from everyone
It's not only a play on the 'fear of the unknown' but goes even further than that for it being in the water - where we are hindered while they are in their element.
True. For all the vast mythology that we know of the Middle Earth, we know very little about water creatures, which is striking given that there are oceans and lakes all around. This is the only water creature I recall
Best video I've seen on the subject. My interpretation is that age sometimes means physical in-world age and sometimes not depending on who speaks. When it comes to Ungoliant, there's an answer that's pretty clear on where she came from to an extent but it still leaves more questions. She's supposed to have come from the darkness around Arda, which sounds very much like a fancy way of saying... space. She's an alien creature, potentially having come from the empty void Morgoth later got sent to. The implication is that there's actually more in early time (or outside time) which in a way predates what's written about the music in the Silmarillion. The Nameless Things may actually be something so old that a Maiar wouldn't know them well. Eru Illuvitar is obviously written as a god for Arda, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'd have control over other places outside it from before the Ainur.
Ungoliant having come from a place that the Silmarillion doesn't mention existing in any detail and the Nameless Things being said by Gandalf (the same age as Sauron) as older than they were must mean that he knew they existed somewhere along the line but either never knew exactly what they were, or they were something so terrible and powerful that he was just terrified of them. That he'd choose a balrog as company sooner than be near them says a lot about how bad they'd have to be, and considering Ungoliant as the most similar thing, she became strong enough to threaten even Morgoth, a guy who could shape mountains as he wished. If Gandalf suspected any relation to her, it makes sense that he'd fear them.
As an interesting note, there's a clear comparison between Ungoliant and later Shelob liking dark places and the Nameless Things also choosing to go so deep into the world that the word "roots" is used, sounding like they may have been in the core level of depth.
Ultimately, I think you're right. Tolkein likely made unnamed things vague for narrative reasons.
But if we want to be pedantic, Eru *made* the Ainur first. It doesn't say there was nothing else before.
So it could be reasoned that the nameless things were never made at all. They just were always there.
I Think it's Always Wise to Keep at Least Somethings a Mystery. It Leaves Somethings to the Imagination as a Way of Always Keeping the Fans Engaged well After All the Tales Have Been Told and the Stories are Over. Brilliant!
I enjoy the idea that differences in what Gandalf is saying and what's written in the Silmarillion are a result of everything being written as if it was a history that has been passed on throughout time. Something that is so old that some details from one history book to another no longer line up.
No idea if it fits with the wider writings and knowledge. But, that's what pushes Tolkien's books to another level for me, the idea that they're not a story, nor are they factual. But, rather a history that's long forgotten and only remembered through these books that are written by real people of the time who wouldn't have had all knowledge or gotten everything right
My brother and I are having a great time bonding over these videos. We've never got on particularly well but these videos have brought us much closer together. People will laugh and scoff because it is fantasy, but it genuinely does help people escape and find solace, and your breakdown makes it so that people can understand without trying to read the books
"Scoff because is fantasy" - those people don´t know what they´re talking about. Middle-Earth and Narnia are like Lembas. They´re some of the few books of fiction that don´t just describe or ask questions, but give you non-dogmatic answers that sustain you your whole life.
I know several people whom LOTR and/or Narnia have carried through some extremely hard times. Listening to LOTR and Narnia audiobooks was one of the very few reasons I didn´t kill myself after a horrible university shooting. Couldn´t sleep for 2 months and was losing my mind. Samwise Gamgee and Puddleglum kept me alive.
So, just give these people the you-know-which finger 🙂
Just yesterday I rewatched the video about the watcher in the water - perfect timing! Thank you for your amazing videos. I love watching / listening to them before bed.
I love the watcher specifically going after frodo.
Robert, I can't find the traveller's guide videos and lots of other videos I loved. please, please reupload them. did Pippin save Middle-Earth, did Frodo curse Gollum and so on. ❤
Very inspiring video. The mysteries makes the universe more interesting. For comparison, George Lucas said that not even he knew where Yoda was from, that it was meant to be a mystery.
I LIVE for mysteries within fictional worlds
Can't wait for the words of command video. They've always intrigued me, what is the extent of their power, what can and cannot be done with commanding words?
Well done, as always. In a time when we have access to the entire surface of our world and all the information we have garnered at the touch of a screen we have lost sight of the great wonder and deep mystery of things unknown. For most of our species' existence this was not so. Tolkien's acknowleging deep mysteries beneath the surface is a brilliant device. And by only giving the reader just the smallest mention keeps the mystery whole. Truely wonderful.
This has been your best video yet Robert, thank you. ❤
The unexplained mysteries of LOTR are fantastic. Thanks for this great video.
I always loved this aspect of the legendarium, it’s what makes middle earth feel so old and vast, there’s a constant sense of great things lost to time. No other work really comes close, maybe dark tower, but that always feels pushed on the reader. Middle earth just is and was regardless of the reader.
Good point! For some reason, I get this feeling whenever I look at videos or photos of the Altai Mountains in central Asia. It always strikes me how old and wild the Earth is.
The greatest artists squeeze and trigger one thing!..a person's imagination, this includes leaving mysterious items for our personal imagination to chew over. Tolkien wrote for himself and then gifted us his story's to run with. Years later we are all still squeezing the imagination sponges he left. What a mind! What a gift!
Maybe he meant before Mairon "became" Sauron?
"Older than Sauron" might not be strictly true.
Maybe Gandalf meant "these creatures existed in Middle Earth before Sauron came to Middle Earth".
Or maybe Gandalf just didn't remember that Sauron was a Maia. (Gandalf came to Middle Earth with his memory more or less wiped out and not remembering much about his life in Aman.)
Gandalf was well aware that Sauron is a Maia.
Awesome video. Thx man. Super fascinating and relaxing to listen to.
Just stumbled onto your channel ; what EXCELLENT CONTENT! I’m incredibly impressed and also…. Entertained 😉
Your narration and knowledge of these books are incredible. You just acquired yourself a fan…
Great video as always!
You wrote that comment one minute after the video was uploaded, and the video is eleven minutes long, so how did you know at that time? 😜
Another brilliant video. I've never heard of Lord Dunsany, but will be off to the National Library of Ireland to go down that rabbit hole. Thank you so much!
Dunsany is no Tolkien. Best to go in with lowered expectations, and then it should be enjoyable enough.
I always thought they were prototypes but Morgoth that he abandoned because he’s either embarrassed by his failure or because he’s wary of what he created
well, since evil cant create and only corrupt i suppose we would have names of them if they were to be corrupted by morgoth. i´d rather believe, that they have just like tom bombadil always been.
Morgoth cannot create, only corrupt.
Morgoth couldn’t create life. Only Eru could. And Eru created sentient Earth life based on the blueprint that was the Music of the Ainur. Morgoth sewed more than enough discord within the music to result in these “nameless things.”
@@12classics39 when I said prototypes I meant he corrupted them not created, I should have been clearer on that though.
Thank you, Robert.
Fascinating video. Not big lore expert when it comes to Tolkien works, but it is one of my favorite settings. I’ve always wondered about these nameless things. Ever since I saw fellowship in the early 2000s, it has been like a slight but persistent scratch in the back of my head. “I wonder what those are. How did Gandalf fall but end up fighting the balrog on what looked like a snowy peak? Why are they…gnawing?”
At the very least, you have sparked my curiosity again and gave me something to think about for a couple more hours.
You should do a video on the paths of the dead. Loving your stuff.
Glad you covered this! I was just about ready to give in and watch this topic on some other channel that got recommended to me. Now I can hear it in perhaps my favorite voice on RUclips, and with the best script to support it 😉
So... This is where Forgotten Beasts from Dwarf Fortress were inspired from. Cool.
There seems to be a lot of similarities between Ungoliant and the nameless things. The endless gnawing at the earth seems to ascribe to them a hunger similar to Ungoliants ceaseless hunger, and being far older than most other things in the world, preferring the dark shadowy corners of the world over the places where the other creatures liked to gather and dwell. I feel Ungoliant may have been this class of creature, but her hunger caused her to amass power, which caused greater hunger and made her enough of a presence in the world that she was given a name
Not completely sure about the last sentence, but a very good point!
Really cool video, I hesitated to click it because I was expecting another theory crafting bs but I’m glad I did. Thanks!
It’s interesting that you brought up Lovecraft, because I was thinking that they seemed very Lovecraftian in their description.
Sauron wasn't always called Sauron, same as Morgoth. Perhaps it meant they predate his fall.
In much the same way there was no Gandalf before that entity was sent to the world - Gandalf without memories of before then? was effectively a new being. A Tuvix.
@@JohnnyWednesday Perfect Voyager reference!
@@thing_under_the_stairs - Never forget! ;)
@@JohnnyWednesday Tuvix is forever in our hearts.
@@RHCole I don't think thats how Tolkien envisioned beings, though, since his metaphysics are heavily based on catholic philosophy
Thanks again for your use of Lord of the Rings Online imagery!
Great video as usual Robert! Thank you for studying Tolkien’s Legendariam and breaking it down in NERDY detail!!!
I actually came to the same conclusion as Tolkien on my own. One of my favorite things about Hollow Knight, one of my favorite games, is that not everything is explained. Where did the Pale King go? Is he dead? Are there other civilations outside Hollownest? Are they all dead, or do some still survive? What are Wyrms? Is Hornet Void?
Games become boring if you've done everything and know everything. But what Doesn't get boring, is hypothesizing and theorizing on what was introduced but never explained. That is what keeps you interested.
reminds me more of Adventure time.
"before there was something, there was nothing .. and before there was nothing, there were monsters"
I think a big part of the appeal of Tolkiens work is that mystery aspect, allowing room for the readers to discover and uncover truths about the world he built and give it more colour, shape and dimension.
To this day I love hearing about peoples interpretation of Tom Bombadil and what meaning we can get from his existence.
I've been hoping for this video for over a year since I discovered your channel! So glad you finally got to it!! Letsgooo
I love how we are introduced to several layers of darkness and evil in Moria.
First, the wild orcs that slaughtered the last remnants of the dwarven kingdom in a terrifying way (as told in the dreary and ominous last chapter of Mazarbul's Book) and now infest the city's darkest places.
Then, these orcs immediately flee when confronted with an even darker evil: an ancient and powerful demigod, the Balrog that was accidentally awaken in the depths of Khazad-Dûm and now roams free.
And then, we know from Gandalf that even the mighty Balrog himself feels uneasy and tries to escape when in the presence of the lovecraftian Nameless Things that inhabit the deepest uncharted levels of the mountain and probably the world.
It all builds up in such a satisfying and scary way.
I saw them are things outside of Eru's creation. Like the vermin in Illuvatar's basement that creeped into Arda. Ungoliant being the spider in His closet.
Illuvatar is a creator god, but himself existed before Arda. Why not other things? That would qualify them as older than Sauron, a creation of Illuvatar before the creation of Arda.
Amazon will get around to a nameless thing prequel soon enough and remove all mystery.
I do support the idea that tom bombadil is one of these nameless things. My theory is when eru and the ainur were singing ardha into existence, and then melchor sang those discordant notes, those distortions created the namelesss things, however unintentionally
Tolkien: I don't wanna explain those nameless things...
Lovecraft: Probably wise...
Tom bombadil continues to give the vibe that eru created Arda around him where was already hanging out, and that Tom was pretty happy with the gift
His boots are yellow. What more do you need to know?
What about the Were-worms at the Battle of 5 Armies? They make tunnels and seem to fit the bill as well as the watcher or Ungoliant.
Those creatures are one of the few times Jackson completely went off the rails. Such creatures are never mentioned in The Hobbit, or anywhere else for that matter. He needed an element at which the orcs could suddenly come upon the scene and made up this as his sollution.
If the orcs (or Sauron) could have controlled those worms - then all castles/fortresses would have been meaningless. Such a silly (probably not sense-checked) idea should have been abandoned on the cutting room floor.
It's very obviously taking inspiration from H.P. Lovecrafts works and I love it
Really enjoy your work, thank you
Can you do a video on the nature of prophecy in middle earth, tree beards monologue on the last march of the ents, doom and prophecy unfulfilled is still one of the most powerful moments in the story for me.
The timing of this popping up in my feed is so good, I'm literally in the middle of rings of power and arondir just said the thing about there being many unnamed things lying deep in this world
4:12 Oh look, a Terentatek!
KOTOR ❤
It's a shame that almost nobody got that reference
The Xenomorph at 6:18 though.
Wonderful video! I really enjoy these deep dives you do (even if I'm only watching the Tolkien ones), and I'm astounded you're able to put so much time into research and writing! This really is top-notch! Can't wait for the next one!
You mention Tom Bombadil again, and he may be my favourite character in all of Tolkien's work. He's also one of the characters I feel was neglected, rather than only enigmatic. "Leave them wanting more!" P.T. Barnum said, but even with "The adventures of Tom Bombadil", I think that even a proper children's book with actual stories, or a short novel, maybe set in the time when he met Goldberry, would have been a great addition, rather than a detraction. Tolkien hadn't even have to mention his origin or more than vaguely mention his long wanderings before this point. This is my lament, anyway.
Keep up the good work! ❤
Very spooky subject! Thanks
tolken was on point. the unknown drives a reader's imagination. this is kind of why i really enjoy stories such as BLAME!. stories mostly told through show not tell, there is very little dialogue. and, the lack of knowledge majority of characters have of their own world helps sell the idea of a dwindling civilization.
Rather than just an exploration of a legendarium, this is first-rate literary criticism. It does Tolkien's work and legacy as proud as anything I've encountered.
Yes, I have a degree in literature and this channel satisfies even my taste 😄 It recognizes and respects the depth of Tolkien´s writing, and I can respect that.
@@martavdz4972 I think Tolkien, like Frodo, has too little honor among his own people. Academics may have a bit of condescension towards fantasy, and I can understand that, but I think in time LOTR will take its place next to Gatsby and others as one of the great works of fiction of the twentieth century.
I had a thought similar to some here but with a difference...
Every music piece has notes it does not use for whatever reason.
Even if not used...they still exist, somewhere...in some form or other
The creature on 4.15 , seems inspired on the magmar from" die by the sword"
I think part of the magic, and wonder, and call of Middle Earth is Tom Bombadil, and the nameless things ect. Are left to us the reader ( the adventurer ) to form and mold and place into the story. It makes me feel as if I'm part of the story, not just a bystander. That's the magic of books to me, let me shape the nameless things. Let me come to the conclusion of where the entwives went, let me explore who and what Tom is ❤❤ JRRT was a genius
Would love to hear you going over Cosmere lore. If you ever wanted another universe to obsess over. :)
The thing in the water near the entrance to Khazad Dum was probably one of these things.
Lovely!
Best Tolkien RUclipsr!
This passage always makes me think of the tomb of the Mayan king Pakal. There was a relief carved on the lid of his coffin, showing the king falling into the jaws of the underworld (or at least thats the interpretation I learned)
The way I like to think about the nameless things is that they were created when Morgoth started sowing his discord into the song.
Since the watcher is an octopus (or at least it looks like it) and thus a mollusk it does fit well with the "slimier than fish" part
Good thing the dwarves only woke up a balrog by digging too deep. Had Durin's Bane decided to hide out somewhere else, we might've had to deal with Cthulhu's discarded tissues chasing the fellowship through Moria and that would be exactly as gross as it sounds.
7:25 That image is REALLY disturbing, very Lovecraftian!
When I think of "nameless things" H. P. Lovecraft immediately comes to mind.
5:24 keyword here "he [Erú/Illúvatar] made". Not necessarily everything in existence was made by him
Please will you do an In Deep Geek about Turin Turambar. If Ive missed such content then I do appologise.
It's a little out o scope for this channel, but an exploration of Dunsany's influence on the genre and Tolkien in particular would be most welcome. Just discovered King of Elfland's Daughter last year
You missed another reference, in the end of the hobbit Gandalf mentions 'were-worms' in the mountains north of mirkwood
I think we've been learning or reading from the world and cosmology from one point of view, what if there were things that were in existence not created by Eru. So technically the Ainur were the first things in existence from Eru, before all else that was made by Eru. But what if there were other things in exitence along side Eru and because of these things he wanted his creations to be safe from them and thus created a world of order and relatively safety by rounding up a bunch of these nameless things and sticking them down where they wouldn't interact with his creations.
There's also a reason why people love games such as the souls series. Alot of the lore in that game is given indirectly and mostly up to the player to decipher.
Humans at our core are naturally curious and maybe that curiosity is a very desired thing in this age of readily available answers with just a google search.