For any question starting with "Did the Fellowship know" you can always assume a valid answer is "Legolas knew, but he also knew to mind his own dang business."
My brain before clicking went "Knowing Gandalf is a maia? Probably only the ones who even really grasp what that even means, Legolas and possibly Aragorn and that's it."
I very much appreciate your conclusion: it didn't matter to Tolkien that his readers or other characters knew what Gandalf was, but that they knew his character. You share some really worthwhile insights and beautiful things with us; thank you 😊
Yeah, and that same attitude is why people argue over what Tom Bombadil is to this day. Tolkien never specified, and likely thought it unimportant to do so. But plenty of others do want to know!
Yet their responses to his death in Moria would seem to imply that they didn't know-for certain-that he was a Maiar. They grieved his death like he was just another Child of Illuvitar.
@@TheMarcHicks Possibly they thought his "death" just meant they would never see him again, that his spirit would return to Valinor and they had lost his help.
There is one other to whom Gandalf named himself and that is Durin's Bane. When confronting Durin's Bane (a Balrog), Gandalf identified himself as "a servant of the Secret Fire" and "wielder of the Flame of Anor," essentially declaring his status as a Maiar, a powerful being directly serving the creator Eru Ilúvatar, signifying his authority against the dark creature.
At home it's more like : Me : I wonder about what incredibly geeky stuff he's thinking about... Him : start talking about the ending of the 6th Dune book. 🥰
I do like that Tolkien didnt view himself as the single difinitive authority on the world he created, its sweet and oddly humble. He also was wiser than most of us because he realised some details are best just left vague and unknown.
Such a shame people so.. anti-Tolkien got control of the IP Seems Tolkien really wanted a sorta interconnected fantasy universe but seems most just subvert HIS work as they project their own politics and mediocrity upon it Creating division and fighting vs bringing people together or inspiring It’s sad Nothing better represents Ungoliant sucking the Light from the trees than Amazon or Disney buying up, then destroying, our heroes and legends I imagine ai might make it possible to just make our own content based on things we like. Be nice to be free of all the goofy allegory n social engineering and get back to epic, heroic adventures
It lends to the mystique of his mythology. If all is known and explained, the world loses its life because all is defined. The fact that we can all still wonder and discuss the untold keeps his world alive indefinitely.
For anybody that wants a great example of why you shouldn't reveal and explain everything, especially on a cosmic level just has to look at what World of Warcraft lore turned into. Totally butchered and retconned to a point of no recognition
@@PepsiMagt that is known. Also, he was originally going to be a dwarf- in fact he was the original leader of the dwarves in the hobbit in an early draft of the manuscript.
@@PepsiMagt You phrased that as if you're guessing it, meanwhile the rest of us already know it as fact. Don't pretend to be coming up with stuff on your own.
They arrived without great fanfare....... meanwhile at Amazon " so hes gonna come down on a meteor and everyones gonna look at the sky and go ohhhhhhh and even the people who didnt see it will have a vision of it "
Oh please don't bring up Rings of Power. I thought nobody could ruin the legendarium as much as Jackson already had.....but the world just loves proving me wrong.
Exactly. This is what I always say. All the dogmatism that you read online comes from his fans, not Tolkien. He was much more content to let things be unexplained but the fans insist on putting everything into categories.
One could interpret his reasoning for leaving things unexplained was for precisely this point. To leave fans up to speculating many aspects of his work and put them into categories of their own for years to come.
I love this channel. When so much of the fandom can be so negative and fighting over this and that… it’s just clear, wholesome content. that really captures the spirit of Tolkien.
Robert is Mr Chill!!! 🤗 A complete Tolkien Moderate... Who is totally versed in the lore BUT! Is happy to indulge in other adaptations of that lore. And even then he is Balanced... Fair and Objective! Quite Refreshing actually... In this Black and White Era of Division! And as a Political Moderate myself, his channel is a Quiet and Peaceful Haven... In a stormy ocean of Hatred... Bigotry and Chaos! Thank You Robert! 👍
Yeah no ones fighting? Its just lotr fans and fake woke losers pretending they care about amazon crappy shows no one actually in the fandom is fivhting
@@Robert_H_Diver True Anyone saying this channel is right for taking a moderate position against TROP clearly is NOT a Tolkien fan. This channel should make it clear where it stands regarding the nonsense that's Rings of power
Great video. Some other interesting topics might be: -Did Sauron know who the Istari were and why they were there? -How well did the Istari themselves remember why they were there? There's a quote from Unfinished Tales suggesting that they only had vague memories of Valinor.
Sauron should have - he was one of the Maia himself, and would have known them back in the day. And he'd likely have had plenty of experience with the Blue Wizards by the time of LotR to have been able to discern their mission. As for the second question, they seem to have a pretty clear idea of what they were and where from, even if they didn't remember all the details of their lives in Valinor. Gandalf knew the Eagles well for instance, who worked for Manwe.
yea 100% he knew what they were, probably not who they were but definitely what and why. They knew who and what they were and why they were in Middle earth but memories of events and people in Valinor were an unnecessary distraction I think.
I don’t remember where it was but Tolkien did mention that Aragorn knew Gandalf better than any of the Fellowship. I suspect that Aragorn knew because even when he could have been crowned king he told everyone that Gandalf should be the one that should lead them. He at least knew that Gandalf was sent there to carry out a mission. I suspect that since Aragorn was raised in Rivendale that he knew exactly what Gandalf really was.
There's also this quote regarding Saruman by Frodo during the Scouring: "I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it." That "of a noble kind..." piece alludes to the idea that Frodo at least suspected that the Wizards are of some set-apart type of being.
When I read The Lord of the Rings for the very first time, back when I was 11, I had no idea who or what Gandalf *actually* was. So when he fell in Moria, I genuinely cried because I genuinely thought he was dead.....especially as I had come to love the character so much in The Hobbit.
I had a very similar experience as you on my first reading of the Fellowship of the Ring when I was eleven, including the crying and being bummed out, until I learned later of his reincarnation. I wonder how many other young fantasy fans go through this rite of passage.
Gandalf is one of my favourite characters. But I liked him better when all I knew about him was what I read in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. He seemed a wise and highly educated human. He was part of an order (perhaps one of many) of wizards with Saruman as its head. I always felt that learning that he is an immortal being, diminished him. His order consisted of just five such beings, only three of which are ever mentioned in the main story. Rather than being part of a wider class of magicians.
It’s also important to remember that the elves can see beyond the mortal realm, so I’m sure they all could tell there was something special about Gandalf. In the same way that elves burned brightly in the shadow realm when Frodo put on the ring, Gandalf mentions that having Glorfindel along in the fellowship would be like carrying a torch to mark their position to the enemy. Of course, the Istari cloaked their power within mortal forms, but Gandalf had to reveal himself multiple times including to the Balrog, so clearly Legolas at least would have seen Gandalf truly uncloaked.
Hi Robert! I wonder if Gandalf changed on that boat to Valinor, and if Frodo and Bilbo got to see him shed his old man disguise bit by bit until he revealed his angelic nature in full. Talk about an awkward boat ride!
There is one other group of beings who almost certainly would have known and one individual in particular who unquestioningly would have known. The great eagles and Gwaihir in particular. As the eyes & ears, and some would say messengers of Manwe they all would have almost certainly known who the Istari really were. If not all of them then at least Gwaihir as their chief and the one who rescues gandalf more than once over the years would have.
This video really brought be back to when I was a young and first read The Hobbit and LOTR. It helped me remember what it was like reading the works for the first time. The awe and mystery of Middle Earth is so hard to recapture these days with any work of fantasy. Thank you.
Thank you! Because involuntary you (and an initial, immediate misunderstanding on my part) made me laugh really hard. 😂 Reading the first part of your sentence "Gandalf as a child" instantly had my brain pop up with images of Gandalf as a tottler. 🤣
@@aaronrowell6943 Even more so the royal families of the Rohan! Gandalf at least is ever travelling; pops up and leaves every now and then. But the kings of Rohan for generations must have been aware of the unchanging nature of Saruman. And since Saruman/ Isengard is a significant part of Rohan's defense, it's not likely that they didn't take notice.
@@joshjames582 That must have been the longest rest he had after returning to the West... and then he's probably going to have to deal with again when the world is broken.
Pippin's thoughts about Gandalf are pretty deep, a reminder that Pippin and Merry are far more than the couple of tag-along idiots the movies make them out to be.
Is like realizing your friend's grampa is actually Goku. When I read it for the first time (even before the movies) I was amazed at how badass this old guy was. It was very unexpected for me
There's one more important passage that puts Legolas, Aragorn, and maybe Boromir and Gimli into the "they knew" camp: Gandalf's confrontation with the Balrog. Specifically, he's monologue. While not intended for the fellowship, they did seem to be able to hear him, and he seems to basically be identifying himself to the Balrog. Legolas would definitely know enough of the history of the first age to be able to understand what Gandalf's statements mean, just like the Balrog would (and he would also know that the Balrog is a fallen Maiar, adding vital context to Gandalf's statements). Aragorn most likely would have known enough to likewise understood Gandalf's meaning, and if either were uncertain or hadn't known before, this would have been enough. Boromir is still very uncertain. Maybe he would have known enough to put 2 and 2 together, and maybe with Aragorn and Legolas around, he'd be able to learn enough to move into the "they knew" camp. Gimli... well, I don't know. I'd think the Dwarves would know enough that Gimli should have learned enough history to be able to figure out the meaning of Gandalf's speech, but who knows what about history the Dwarves care about or if Gimli would care enough to put the pieces together.
I'm not sure Tom would bother remembering the term Maia or the particular specific details of the pantheon. He's way more in the moment than any of that.
I think Thranduil definitely would have understood over time exactly who and what Gandalf was. Only three types of intelligent beings reside in Valinor - the Valar, the Maiar, and the Elves - and Thranduil would have clearly known that any messengers or envoys sent from the Uttermost West could only be one of the three. Gandalf was clearly not a Vala or an Elf, therefore that leaves him being a Maia the only remaining possibility. And Gandalf must have certainly visited northern Mirkwood multiple times in his 1900-plus years in Middle Earth to see what was happening there, both with the Elves as well as to ascertain any activities the Enemy was engaging in in that region. And just making personal contact with a high-status Elf-king like Thranduil would have been a necessity, given that the ultimate fate of the area might very well be decided on the character & personality of the leaders of the Free Peoples who lived there. The more Gandalf met and engaged with Thranduil the more likely it is that Thranduil at some point (probably even during one of Gandalf's very early visits to Mirkwood in the first couple of centuries after the arrival of the Istari in TA 1100) would have determined Gandalf's true identity, no matter how effective Gandalf's guise of an elderly man would have served in misleading the lesser Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits.
Been watching for a long time and I just wanted to say it’s great to see you getting up there in subs. Gonna have a million soon! LETS GOOOOOOOO!!! I started watching when you didn’t even have 50k…
About Saruman, Frodo says, 'He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against.' By the Scouring of the Shire, he certainly knew the wizards were special beings not of Middle Earth.
Aragorn and Gandalf had a close, deep friendship, and with Aragorn being raised by the preeminent lore-master of Middle-Earth and greatly perceptive as well, it makes perfect sense that Aragorn knew Gandalf's nature. He also kept it hidden as well, understanding as the last heir of Numenor how secrecy could help the forces of good survive to defeat Sauron.
I have heard it said that "Angels are all around us, if only you take the time to look, and, sometimes, they may reveal some of themselves to you." This I think fits Tolkien's perception of Gandalf quite nicely. Whether or not Gandalf is an 'angel' by nature may be something that the knowledgeable and the carefully observant might know, but Gandalf himself chooses how much he wishes to reveal, and only to those to whom he is willing. And that is, in a pinch, everyone whom he knows is willing to do good.
Once again, a topic about which I had not bothered to think until you brought it up. Curiously different, for a devout Catholic, to imagine a world basically without religious worship. The great spirits (Valar, Maiar, Eru) do not present themselves to be worshipped or feared, they prefer to work their good in the background. It is only the twisted, evil ones who command obedience and display themselves as great beings. So it's no wonder that the average peasant farmer, townsman or soldier has no background knowledge into which to slot a character like Gandalf.
That’s a curious aspect of Tolkien’s world that I had not thought about. I wonder how much the Christian God actually demands worship? While Tolkien was a devout Catholic, perhaps his theology was a little different from some?
@@micklumsden3956seems like Tolkien simply used a Catholic backdrop for his setting, and eventually added in pagan elements. First example, the Valar from the perspective of Christians are Archangels, while from a pagan perspective they are the Olympian gods, with Manwe having jurisdiction over the heavens and flying animals akin to Zeus. A second example would be the respective fate of both Elves and Men, Elves being immortal get the option of reincarnation when they receive judgement in the Halls of Mandos, whilst Man's fate is to perish and depart to the Timeless Halls AKA Heaven itself where Eru resides along with the other Ainur.
The way Robert speaks, especially how he ends the videos, makes me think that he could spend fifteen minutes explaining how to unclog an S-bend, and I'd still come away feeling like I had learned some profound truth to meditate on.
Gandalf - unblocks using a Word of Command. Saruman - unblocks using blasting powder (doesn't end well). Radagast - gives up and goes in the woods, apologising to the local squirrels.
Since Glorfindel appears to Frodo as he is 'on the other side' at one point, presumably Glorfindel, Galadriel and Elrond saw him in both worlds simultaneously at all times.
Gandalf was able to hide his spirit from the world. Otherwise, he would have been useless to the Fellowship of the ring. Kind of like Glorfindel, who couldn't hide his spiritual nature and the Nazgul would have been able to spot hie from the air many miles away.
I would initially think they had an inkling, given Frodo recognizing Glorfindel as being different, separate from others at the Council. I believe the same could be discerned about Gandalf.
I thought ‘Servant of the secret fire’ would have been a giveaway for those members of the Fellowship who suspected or had the knowledge to interpret that. (So definitely not Pippin 😂)
Lots of tiers of servants, though. Everyone knew he was a powerful figure - well, everyone except random hometown hobbits who only ever saw him taking Bilbo off on crazy adventures and making fireworks and whatnot (which...I've just realized the visits he takes to the Shire that are off page (particularly those before Bilbo finds this mysterious magic ring that's worth keeping tabs on) is probably him taking a holiday, visiting simple, carefree folk, who have no idea of the burden he's under trying to manage the affairs of an entire continent.) But there's lots of forms that can take. Most of the fellowship probably wouldn't know the lore about the Secret Fire. Theology doesn't seem to come up much in The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings - at least not in the sense of it being a serious field of academic study. There's some vague allusions to things like the Sun being "she" for Elves and Hobbits but "he" for humans, but it doesn't get much deeper than that. Honestly I think that limits it to just Aragorn, Legolas and maybe Frodo and Gimli. (Frodo because he's read a good chunk of Bilbo's library, Gimli because if you go far enough back in Dwarven lore, there's probably some version of the story about Dwarves being created and Eru's blessing being needed to grant them full sapience.) But also, in that particular moment, when a horrendous demon is confronting the most powerful and learned being you've ever met (who has just told you to run for your life, because you don't have a hope of fighting it), is this really the time you're pondering the theological implications of what "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Arnor" means? If you're religious, you're probably praying to whoever you pray to, sure, but you're probably not processing that sentence for clues as to Gandalf's identity.
Is the nature of "the secret fire" ever explained at length anywhere? Perhaps In Deep Geek has mentioned in other videos (I'm only just starting to watch them.)
@@jeffreylewis8019 I always interpreted it as cognate with "the Flame Imperishable" that Melkor is said to have sought in the Ainulindale. Effectively, the power of Eru Iluvatar.
@@jeffreylewis8019 Didn't dig into sources, but according to the middle earth/tolkien wiki, it's a reference to Eru Illuvitar and the Fires of Creation. Basically Gandalf is saying "I'm a direct servant of God"
As usual Robert you state your case with evidence and logic, but most importantly, with kindness. It’s a pleasure listening to you illuminate this world for us.
I think Frodo‘s comments towards the end (something like “… he was once of a noble kind…), when the other hobbits wanted to kill Saruman, suggest that he had found out after the ring was destroyed, since he had never heard of Saruman before the quest.
I always got the impression that the Elves knew. How Legolas kneels and apologizes to Gandalf for firing his arrow at him in Fanghorn made me think he was apologizing for basically...shooting at an Angel.
"We have to conclude Tolkien didn't think it was important for us to know who Gandalf was" In fact, he thought the opposite. That it wouldn't make sense to publish LotR without publishing the Silmarillion first. So it's not like he didn't intend to explain it, more like he couldn't within the constraints of his publisher.
I vividly recall a moment in which Pippin realizes that Gandalf must have been very old, finding it odd, but I don’t remember him or anyone else wondering what was he. Maybe it didn’t matter to them. Even Cirdan only imagined who Gandalf really was and what was his purpose, and he was the first to see him arrive in Middle-earth.
Although not of the Fellowship directly, I also believe Tom Bombadil would have known; Gandalf alludes to them having had conversations in the past - and Bombadil seems to intuitively know things others do not.
One would assume that Tom Bombadil knew. Especially as Gandalf says at the end of ROTK that he is going to have a long conversation with Tom. I feel he'd want to speak with someone who knew and understood his true nature.
Gandalf hints to Denethor at what he is, saying "all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care ... For I also am a steward. Did you not know? "
Man it just does my heart good to see it spelled out here how the other folk of Middle Earth thought of Gandalf. Like the expression of 'What was Gandalf?' So interesting that many think of him as something unknown or unknowable, unless they had some special insight. It's almost as if the word 'Wizard' is used to refer to a separate class of being, rather than a vocation or profession. The fact that Tolkien leaves these things somewhat ambiguous just adds fuel to the fire of our imaginations! Do you have to be a Maia in order to be a servant of the Secret Fire? And I could only hope to tap into the wellspring of joy, that fountain of mirth, enough to set a kingdom laughing were it to gush forth, that our Mithrandir kept just under the surface. May we all partake of it in our lives and beyond! Namárie, Tenn’ enomentielva!
I think it would be funny for an elf when first meeting thinking it was just another old human only to meet them later. Elf: You! Your still alive, how? Old man: Oh, hello there. I met you a few years ago did I? Elf: That was 200 years ago!! Old man: Was it, my how time flys.
During the first age, Gandalf went about the Elves in eleven form or invisible. He guided the first elves through whispered suggestions. So I think his nature was to not tell people who he was. Since the Miair powers were reduced when sent into the East I consider that they were changed enough to not compare to a Maiar anymore. They took on the role of wizard completely. Those with power might recognize power but I think most knew nothing more than a wizard. (I know I misspelled & possibly used some wrong terms but hopefully my point comes through.)
The balrog should have figured it out, and probably detected the spirit form directly. But the balrog was sure it could take Olorin in a fight and nearly did.
I think Durin's Bane sensed the presence of another Maia and that was part of why it pursued the Fellowship; it was worried that its hiding place had been discovered.
Gandalf describes it using a counter-spell against him, which nearly broke him. Either at that moment or before, was probably when it knew beyond a doubt. Either way, I honestly don't think the Balrog even cared. No Balrog would have ever been perturbed by Olorin in his previous usual form, either. Fact that he had a frail physical from for it to smash probably enticed Durin's Bane all the more.
I don't think the Balrog would have cared to be honest. I mean you come into my house... I'm squatting here but still, you're breaking into my house I'm just gonna put you to sleep.
Knocked out of the park once again. "Everyone who met Gandolf knew his character." Absolutely love your ability to get to the soul of fantasy and let it shine.
I suspect Celeborn knew as well. He was after all married to Galadriel whom we know was born and raised in Valinor and had direct experience with the Valar and the Maiar.
Not only that he lived in Doriath so he knew Melian, it's the same argument that this video used for Oropher (and maybe Thranduil). He definitively knew, I think his reaction to Gandalf's death was more of a "damn, we needed him and I doubt the Valar would send him back again" than thinking he was gone for good.
5:48 : I wouldn’t underestimate Sam on this one. He is the one who sang about Gil Galad even before reaching Rivendell, and he had already the intuition at that time that they would go to Mordor… Sam has always been interested in knowledge of ancient times and far more wise, that he seemed. He may have learned a lot during the time of fellowship among Elves in Rivendell and Lorien. I would definitely not put him in the same category than Pippin and Merry. That’s not for nothing that he ends his life in Valinor so at least, before the end of the LOTR, when he saw Gandalf sailing back to West, he would have figure it out. Never forget that Sam is the final author of the Red Book of Westmarch, a major source of his legendarium according to Tolkien himself. And of course, for having been a ring bearer during the war, Frodo would have figured it out before the end as well. Not during the march to the Mount Doom, but certainly before his own departure in the West, after seeing Gandalf had survived the Balrog after all. Once again, Bilbo, writer of the Song of Earendill, Frodo and Sam are a major source of our own knowledge about Arda.
I genuinely wonder if Saruman was actually more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, or if Gandalf was simply trusting that his path forward would become clear as it was intended. After all, Gandalf seemed to be more keenly aware than any of the Istari about fate and futures. Yes, Gandalf the White is more "powerful," but it could be simply because he has thrown off his old cloak and assumed the role of Saruman as the dialogue seems to indicate, and therefore needs less to cover his power.
I think Frodo definitely figured it out offscreen, between the defeat of Sauron and when he'll have had it confirmed after sailing into the west themselves. But not before the split of the fellowship.
I think that, by the time they returned to the Shire, Frodo had a pretty good idea what Gandalf (and the other Istari) were even if he didn't have a name to put to it. Consider his final confrontation with Saruman at Sharkey's End and what he says of him.
I love this series. The Lord of the Rings books were the first books that I really connected with as a child, they’re still my favourites and I adore the films too. These talks are giving me a new perspective all these years later.
I’m pretty sure Aragorn knew exactly but Gandalf was still clearly lost for the time being so he had to lead the fellowship. Also he didn’t seem too shocked when he realised Gandalf had returned. More shocked that he was changed
I loved this, thank you! Regarding the stakes perceived by the fellowship around Gandalf's mortality -- I'm thinking that even if you were sure Gandalf was a maia, you wouldn't necessarily know that he could come back after a few days to continue the quest! After all, the Balrog didn't return. I guess there would have been little to no lore on resurrections, maia or otherwise, and only the one-off example of Glorfindel to go by, and that was Ages ago. Did Gandalf himself even know that he'd be back, or when?
Right, I think there's a difference between immortal in essence and able to return to Middle Earth in a new body. There's absolutely no hint that Saruman will come back after Grima kills him. It seems like without the direct intervention of the Valar, killing a Maia's embodied form is effective for removing them from Middle Earth - the same way elves are immortal, but can also be killed.
Heey... I just opened the video to comment that I REALLY appreciate your choice to display the correct singular form for "maia" in a title. It's frustrating how few people seem to know it, even some hardcore fans.
I think Celeborn knew his identity as much as Galdriel, Elrond and Cirdan. Remember Celeborn lived in Doriath as well and knew of the Maiar. I think the reasons he and Galadriel reacted differently is because she and Gandalf had a connection as ring bearers and Celeborn didn't.
One thing that throws a wrench in the works regarding the idea of Legolas or Aragorn knowing/guessing that Gandalf was a Maia: the despair they exhibit between the exit from Moria and the recuperation in Lothlorien. This can be somewhat tempered by the fact that they would also likely understand that a Balrog is also a Maia of sorts, though even at their most powerful portrayals, they seem to be somewhat lesser than the Maiar who served the Valar. (And indeed, whatever limits were imposed on the Istari seem to be roughly equivalent, given how closely matched Gandalf and the Balrog are in his description of their battle (it's not detailed enough to know for sure, but the fact that he struck down the Balrog and seems to have promptly *died* before being sent back certainly indicates he was taking about as much as he was giving) My read on things, in short, is that they both had an understanding that he was something beyond Man or Elf, but didn't have an in depth understanding of exactly what tier that means. They'd both be aware of Maiar and Valar above even them as two kinds of being that fit that "beyond Man or Elf" description, but Aragorn at least is probably well aware of the existence of other beings that qualify (given his activities around Bree, would be very surprised to hear Aragorn didn't know of Tom Bombadil for one - not suggesting they were friends or even met directly, but if you're going to be defending an area from threats, knowing you've got someone holding down the western approaches just by being...whatever Tom Bombadil is... is critical strategic information). This justifies the despair at his loss in Moria too - while they know he's something beyond Man or Elf, they both know balrogs are *also* in that category...and since they don't know exactly what his deal is (or, for that matter, exactly how powerful a Balrog is - both are far too young to have any direct experience with them in the old days. Conversely, Galadriel is going "oh how cute, they're afraid Gandalf is going to be beaten by a Balrog! It'll be fine!"
Frodo: By the way, did you know Gandalf was a Maia? Sam: What the F is a Maia? Frodo: Kinda like an angel Pippin: What the F is an angel? Frodo: Like, and emissary of God or something Merry: What the F is a God? Pippin: Oh, I know that one, "to us, like farmer Maggot to his sheep" or something like that Merry: A pervert? Gandalf, listening from the other room: I really need to start a school at the Shire bro, this is getting out of hand Aragorn: Can they even read? Gimly: What the F is a read? Legolas: One of those plants that grow next to rivers
I remember when I finished reading Lord of the Rings for the first time, over 20 years ago now, I was so confused as to why Gandalf had an elvish ring of power. Was he an elf the whole time? I asked on a Middle-earth forum what exactly he was. That was when I first read the word "Maia" and realized I had much more reading to do.
I wonder how the conversation would go if Bilbo/Frodo asked. "What actually ARE you Gandalf?". Either "Mind yourself Master Baggins!", explains in detail about Maia, or gives a nice cryptic answer.
In almost every way, the Istari were equivalent to extremely powerful Elves -- immortal beings incarnate in potentially immortal bodies, but vulnerable to physical death by violence. The death and return of Gandalf looks very much like the death and return of Glorfindel. It's crucial to remember that the distinctions in nature and power between the beings of Ëa are hazy and porous. When an Elf can wound a Vala and a Maia can have a child with an Elf, it becomes clear that we are not dealing with strictly boxed categories and power levels. This is of course strongly reminiscent of Norse mythology, which has a very similar not-quite-hierarchy of beings.
Quite an interesting thought to posit! No one really asked Gandalf about who he was, as far as I recall. Also cool to note that 'maiar' never appears in the 'canon' published works. They all must have thought it was a miracle when Gandalf became The White
Yeah, there's no way Aragorn doesn't know who or broadly what he is, and while Legolas probably doesn't know the details, he's clearly going to be able to guess. Other than that- Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel certainly; Celeborn, Glorfindel, and Thranduil probably have a very good idea, and a handful of other elves, and a few high ranking or lore-studious Numenorians (in Gondor or among the rangers) might be able to work it out.
True. A "demon of fire and shadow." So maybe they could have had him backed by a "huge shadow that extended out like huge wings." Note that Tolkien never once said Balrogs had wings.
For any question starting with "Did the Fellowship know" you can always assume a valid answer is "Legolas knew, but he also knew to mind his own dang business."
100% those elven eyes have seen some shit, but those lips are saved for talking shit to his bro gimli
Lol. Well said.
I think Denethor also knew.
Pretty sure Aragorn knew
My brain before clicking went "Knowing Gandalf is a maia? Probably only the ones who even really grasp what that even means, Legolas and possibly Aragorn and that's it."
“Everyone who met him, knew Gandalf’s character and that was enough.” Perfectly said sir. Thank you as always.
I very much appreciate your conclusion: it didn't matter to Tolkien that his readers or other characters knew what Gandalf was, but that they knew his character.
You share some really worthwhile insights and beautiful things with us; thank you 😊
Yeah, and that same attitude is why people argue over what Tom Bombadil is to this day. Tolkien never specified, and likely thought it unimportant to do so. But plenty of others do want to know!
Stories like these are appealing because they contain mystery and unresolved issues that don't seem to have a clear solution.
Legolas and Aragorn would have known - and they would also know to keep that to themselves.
Only these two would have known at least some the lore of the Maia
@@bgross685 Faramir would have known and Boromir Should have, but I think there was a Jock/Nerd Scholar dynamic in that household.
Yep
And how did that turn out? Boromir? Looking at you... Maybe some more lore would have served you better than drinking mead in osgiliath? 0:44
Yet their responses to his death in Moria would seem to imply that they didn't know-for certain-that he was a Maiar. They grieved his death like he was just another Child of Illuvitar.
@@TheMarcHicks Possibly they thought his "death" just meant they would never see him again, that his spirit would return to Valinor and they had lost his help.
There is one other to whom Gandalf named himself and that is Durin's Bane. When confronting Durin's Bane (a Balrog), Gandalf identified himself as "a servant of the Secret Fire" and "wielder of the Flame of Anor," essentially declaring his status as a Maiar, a powerful being directly serving the creator Eru Ilúvatar, signifying his authority against the dark creature.
I thought the "flame of Anor" referred to him wielding Narya, the Ring of Fire.
this is likely when Aragon and Legolas would have found out if it wasn't known to the elves.
Well, is a balrog a maiar also? Or no?
Her : He looks absent. I'm sure he is thinking about another woman.
Me : Did the Fellowship know Gandalf was a Maia?
Epic comment XD
👯♀😭👉🥗😺
🤔 Who would Gandalf have been during the Roman Empire?
@@8Biit😂😂🤣
At home it's more like :
Me : I wonder about what incredibly geeky stuff he's thinking about...
Him : start talking about the ending of the 6th Dune book.
🥰
I do like that Tolkien didnt view himself as the single difinitive authority on the world he created, its sweet and oddly humble. He also was wiser than most of us because he realised some details are best just left vague and unknown.
Such a shame people so.. anti-Tolkien got control of the IP
Seems Tolkien really wanted a sorta interconnected fantasy universe but seems most just subvert HIS work as they project their own politics and mediocrity upon it
Creating division and fighting vs bringing people together or inspiring
It’s sad
Nothing better represents Ungoliant sucking the Light from the trees than Amazon or Disney buying up, then destroying, our heroes and legends
I imagine ai might make it possible to just make our own content based on things we like. Be nice to be free of all the goofy allegory n social engineering and get back to epic, heroic adventures
It lends to the mystique of his mythology. If all is known and explained, the world loses its life because all is defined. The fact that we can all still wonder and discuss the untold keeps his world alive indefinitely.
@ well said!
For anybody that wants a great example of why you shouldn't reveal and explain everything, especially on a cosmic level just has to look at what World of Warcraft lore turned into. Totally butchered and retconned to a point of no recognition
Definitely wiser than the writers and producers Rings of Power...
I like to think that Olórin really enjoyed that the humans decided to call him "Stick Elf"
The name Gabdalf is from the list of dwarf names in the poetic edda, which undoubtedly os where Tolkien got it from
@@PepsiMagt that is known. Also, he was originally going to be a dwarf- in fact he was the original leader of the dwarves in the hobbit in an early draft of the manuscript.
@@MrChickennugget360 Fascinating. I didn't know that.
Is that from one of the HOME books?
Tolkien changed characters a lot. Strider was originally going to be a hobbit, called Trotter, who wore clogs. Which is hysterical to imagine.
@@PepsiMagt
You phrased that as if you're guessing it, meanwhile the rest of us already know it as fact.
Don't pretend to be coming up with stuff on your own.
They arrived without great fanfare....... meanwhile at Amazon " so hes gonna come down on a meteor and everyones gonna look at the sky and go ohhhhhhh and even the people who didnt see it will have a vision of it "
He is a Grand Elf after all
Oh please don't bring up Rings of Power. I thought nobody could ruin the legendarium as much as Jackson already had.....but the world just loves proving me wrong.
@@Mooza1 🤦♂
@@TheMarcHicks Not a lotr film trilogy fan?
Yeah the writing in RoP is so tone deaf and dumb. Not to mention Gandalf didn't even arrive i Middle Earth till much later lol
“Hey, professor Tolkien, what exactly was Gandalf?”
*Tolkien shrugs*
😂
"Dunno, he didn't say".
Exactly. This is what I always say. All the dogmatism that you read online comes from his fans, not Tolkien. He was much more content to let things be unexplained but the fans insist on putting everything into categories.
One could interpret his reasoning for leaving things unexplained was for precisely this point. To leave fans up to speculating many aspects of his work and put them into categories of their own for years to come.
Tolkien said "shut up!" 😋
@@zStC1 not in the way they are doing it
I love this channel. When so much of the fandom can be so negative and fighting over this and that… it’s just clear, wholesome content. that really captures the spirit of Tolkien.
Robert is Mr Chill!!! 🤗 A complete Tolkien Moderate... Who is totally versed in the lore BUT! Is happy to indulge in other adaptations of that lore. And even then he is Balanced... Fair and Objective!
Quite Refreshing actually... In this Black and White Era of Division! And as a Political Moderate myself, his channel is a Quiet and Peaceful Haven... In a stormy ocean of Hatred... Bigotry and Chaos!
Thank You Robert! 👍
The only people fighting are the actual LOTR fans and the Amazon prime bastardization of LOTR fans…
Yeah no ones fighting? Its just lotr fans and fake woke losers pretending they care about amazon crappy shows no one actually in the fandom is fivhting
Well said!
@@Robert_H_Diver
True
Anyone saying this channel is right for taking a moderate position against TROP clearly is NOT a Tolkien fan.
This channel should make it clear where it stands regarding the nonsense that's Rings of power
Great video. Some other interesting topics might be:
-Did Sauron know who the Istari were and why they were there?
-How well did the Istari themselves remember why they were there? There's a quote from Unfinished Tales suggesting that they only had vague memories of Valinor.
Sauron should have - he was one of the Maia himself, and would have known them back in the day. And he'd likely have had plenty of experience with the Blue Wizards by the time of LotR to have been able to discern their mission. As for the second question, they seem to have a pretty clear idea of what they were and where from, even if they didn't remember all the details of their lives in Valinor. Gandalf knew the Eagles well for instance, who worked for Manwe.
yea 100% he knew what they were, probably not who they were but definitely what and why.
They knew who and what they were and why they were in Middle earth but memories of events and people in Valinor were an unnecessary distraction I think.
I don’t remember where it was but Tolkien did mention that Aragorn knew Gandalf better than any of the Fellowship. I suspect that Aragorn knew because even when he could have been crowned king he told everyone that Gandalf should be the one that should lead them. He at least knew that Gandalf was sent there to carry out a mission. I suspect that since Aragorn was raised in Rivendale that he knew exactly what Gandalf really was.
Especially considering Aragorn, like Elrond, is actually descended from Melian. Aragorn would have been educated on who/what Maiar were.
There's also this quote regarding Saruman by Frodo during the Scouring:
"I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it."
That "of a noble kind..." piece alludes to the idea that Frodo at least suspected that the Wizards are of some set-apart type of being.
Frodo was a dilettante scholar, so he might have known.
When I read The Lord of the Rings for the very first time, back when I was 11, I had no idea who or what Gandalf *actually* was. So when he fell in Moria, I genuinely cried because I genuinely thought he was dead.....especially as I had come to love the character so much in The Hobbit.
I had a very similar experience as you on my first reading of the Fellowship of the Ring when I was eleven, including the crying and being bummed out, until I learned later of his reincarnation. I wonder how many other young fantasy fans go through this rite of passage.
Gandalf is one of my favourite characters.
But I liked him better when all I knew about him was what I read in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.
He seemed a wise and highly educated human. He was part of an order (perhaps one of many) of wizards with Saruman as its head.
I always felt that learning that he is an immortal being, diminished him.
His order consisted of just five such beings, only three of which are ever mentioned in the main story. Rather than being part of a wider class of magicians.
It’s also important to remember that the elves can see beyond the mortal realm, so I’m sure they all could tell there was something special about Gandalf. In the same way that elves burned brightly in the shadow realm when Frodo put on the ring, Gandalf mentions that having Glorfindel along in the fellowship would be like carrying a torch to mark their position to the enemy. Of course, the Istari cloaked their power within mortal forms, but Gandalf had to reveal himself multiple times including to the Balrog, so clearly Legolas at least would have seen Gandalf truly uncloaked.
Interesting. Where is this reference of Gandalf likening Glorfindel to a torch?
@@JohnMoore-qv4vn In the Elrond council when they are discussing the fellowship formation.
I am pretty sure that only elves that have been to valinor can see both the seen and unseen worlds
@@JohnMoore-qv4vnpretty sure it’s near the council of Elrond chapter
Thats friken awesome explanation! Thank you for sharing!
Hi Robert!
I wonder if Gandalf changed on that boat to Valinor, and if Frodo and Bilbo got to see him shed his old man disguise bit by bit until he revealed his angelic nature in full. Talk about an awkward boat ride!
that makes him sound like a stripper :P
I'm imagining Sir Ian as Gandalf slowly, awkwardly stripping off his clothes on the boat as Frodo and Bilbo just stand there dumbfounded and confused.
@@Yonkage-ik5qb "Bro, you have no idea how much this reeks. Two thousand years of hiking builds up quite a sweat."
There is one other group of beings who almost certainly would have known and one individual in particular who unquestioningly would have known. The great eagles and Gwaihir in particular. As the eyes & ears, and some would say messengers of Manwe they all would have almost certainly known who the Istari really were. If not all of them then at least Gwaihir as their chief and the one who rescues gandalf more than once over the years would have.
Guarantee Tom Bombadil and didn't care.
This video really brought be back to when I was a young and first read The Hobbit and LOTR. It helped me remember what it was like reading the works for the first time. The awe and mystery of Middle Earth is so hard to recapture these days with any work of fantasy. Thank you.
Great video. I'd love to see in the future a dive into Valar/Eru Worship in the third age, particularly among the humans.
The door warden at Meduseld, intuited Gandalf’s power “… I deem you fell”. These men were ‘not learned, but wise’
It would be interesting to know Gandalf as a child, but eventually, you grow old and appear older than him. That would be so surreal.
aragorn, frodo, and Bilbo had that happen
@@aaronrowell6943The movie makes it appear that Gandalf left before Aragon started showing signs of old age.
Thank you! Because involuntary you (and an initial, immediate misunderstanding on my part) made me laugh really hard. 😂 Reading the first part of your sentence "Gandalf as a child" instantly had my brain pop up with images of Gandalf as a tottler. 🤣
@@aaronrowell6943 Even more so the royal families of the Rohan! Gandalf at least is ever travelling; pops up and leaves every now and then. But the kings of Rohan for generations must have been aware of the unchanging nature of Saruman. And since Saruman/ Isengard is a significant part of Rohan's defense, it's not likely that they didn't take notice.
@@eugenebelford9087Gandalf the Smooth they call him in the books I think 😂 Like a little beardless peach
I imagine that those that went to Valinor with Gandalf (or followed later) got an education when they got there.
And then if you spin the energy counter clockwise…
When Olorin finally gets home and can take off his work uniform.
@@joshjames582 That must have been the longest rest he had after returning to the West... and then he's probably going to have to deal with again when the world is broken.
I always liked to think Aragorn or Legolas might know
Certainly Aragorn. And quite possibly Legolas - as son of King Thranduil
I believe they both knew, I think Gimli may have figured it out when they met in Fangorn.
@@joshuaeason3426 yeah fangorn definitely opened some eyes surely haha
@@joshuaeason3426 Notice how in the film Gimli even bows to Gandalf's *horse* after he resurrects. Gimli knows what's up.
I don't know why, but this feels like it might be your best work yet. Thank you.
Pippin's thoughts about Gandalf are pretty deep, a reminder that Pippin and Merry are far more than the couple of tag-along idiots the movies make them out to be.
They are effectively Hobbit nobility.
Pippin was at first but he grew out of it.
@@Ry9022 Nobility can be idiots
That's because the movie stank. They changed so much of the characters of the people in the story. I still see at how the movies depicted Gimli.
@ Peter Jackson’s Academy Awards say otherwise.
What makes stories like these good, is that there is mystery, unsolved things that seemingly have no definitive answer.
Is like realizing your friend's grampa is actually Goku.
When I read it for the first time (even before the movies) I was amazed at how badass this old guy was. It was very unexpected for me
There's one more important passage that puts Legolas, Aragorn, and maybe Boromir and Gimli into the "they knew" camp: Gandalf's confrontation with the Balrog. Specifically, he's monologue. While not intended for the fellowship, they did seem to be able to hear him, and he seems to basically be identifying himself to the Balrog. Legolas would definitely know enough of the history of the first age to be able to understand what Gandalf's statements mean, just like the Balrog would (and he would also know that the Balrog is a fallen Maiar, adding vital context to Gandalf's statements). Aragorn most likely would have known enough to likewise understood Gandalf's meaning, and if either were uncertain or hadn't known before, this would have been enough. Boromir is still very uncertain. Maybe he would have known enough to put 2 and 2 together, and maybe with Aragorn and Legolas around, he'd be able to learn enough to move into the "they knew" camp. Gimli... well, I don't know. I'd think the Dwarves would know enough that Gimli should have learned enough history to be able to figure out the meaning of Gandalf's speech, but who knows what about history the Dwarves care about or if Gimli would care enough to put the pieces together.
I reckon Tom Bombadil knew Gandalf was a Maia!
Sure, sure... and he just didn't care, nor think anyone else would care.
It's possible that Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were themselves Maia.
And I guess Tom knew and at the same time did not care at all this..
I'm not sure Tom would bother remembering the term Maia or the particular specific details of the pantheon. He's way more in the moment than any of that.
I think Thranduil definitely would have understood over time exactly who and what Gandalf was. Only three types of intelligent beings reside in Valinor - the Valar, the Maiar, and the Elves - and Thranduil would have clearly known that any messengers or envoys sent from the Uttermost West could only be one of the three. Gandalf was clearly not a Vala or an Elf, therefore that leaves him being a Maia the only remaining possibility. And Gandalf must have certainly visited northern Mirkwood multiple times in his 1900-plus years in Middle Earth to see what was happening there, both with the Elves as well as to ascertain any activities the Enemy was engaging in in that region. And just making personal contact with a high-status Elf-king like Thranduil would have been a necessity, given that the ultimate fate of the area might very well be decided on the character & personality of the leaders of the Free Peoples who lived there. The more Gandalf met and engaged with Thranduil the more likely it is that Thranduil at some point (probably even during one of Gandalf's very early visits to Mirkwood in the first couple of centuries after the arrival of the Istari in TA 1100) would have determined Gandalf's true identity, no matter how effective Gandalf's guise of an elderly man would have served in misleading the lesser Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits.
Been watching for a long time and I just wanted to say it’s great to see you getting up there in subs. Gonna have a million soon! LETS GOOOOOOOO!!!
I started watching when you didn’t even have 50k…
I never once even thought to ask this question. Thank you!
About Saruman, Frodo says, 'He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against.' By the Scouring of the Shire, he certainly knew the wizards were special beings not of Middle Earth.
good point
Aragorn and Gandalf had a close, deep friendship, and with Aragorn being raised by the preeminent lore-master of Middle-Earth and greatly perceptive as well, it makes perfect sense that Aragorn knew Gandalf's nature. He also kept it hidden as well, understanding as the last heir of Numenor how secrecy could help the forces of good survive to defeat Sauron.
5:40 but then it was time for 2nd breakfast so Pippen thought on the matter no more.
I have heard it said that "Angels are all around us, if only you take the time to look, and, sometimes, they may reveal some of themselves to you." This I think fits Tolkien's perception of Gandalf quite nicely. Whether or not Gandalf is an 'angel' by nature may be something that the knowledgeable and the carefully observant might know, but Gandalf himself chooses how much he wishes to reveal, and only to those to whom he is willing. And that is, in a pinch, everyone whom he knows is willing to do good.
I never thought about this. Surely all the elves would know. Cirdan did certainly.
Why would they know? The whole point of him taking the shape of an elderly man was so nobody would know...
@@Destroyer94100 Cirdan knew. He gave Gandalf his Ring to help his mission. Not many old men come from Valinor.
Since Aragorn has the gift of foresight, I bet he may have known Gandalf as a Maiar.
So cool to see a video about a question I had never considered. I love it!
Once again, a topic about which I had not bothered to think until you brought it up. Curiously different, for a devout Catholic, to imagine a world basically without religious worship. The great spirits (Valar, Maiar, Eru) do not present themselves to be worshipped or feared, they prefer to work their good in the background. It is only the twisted, evil ones who command obedience and display themselves as great beings. So it's no wonder that the average peasant farmer, townsman or soldier has no background knowledge into which to slot a character like Gandalf.
That’s a curious aspect of Tolkien’s world that I had not thought about.
I wonder how much the Christian God actually demands worship?
While Tolkien was a devout Catholic, perhaps his theology was a little different from some?
@@micklumsden3956seems like Tolkien simply used a Catholic backdrop for his setting, and eventually added in pagan elements. First example, the Valar from the perspective of Christians are Archangels, while from a pagan perspective they are the Olympian gods, with Manwe having jurisdiction over the heavens and flying animals akin to Zeus. A second example would be the respective fate of both Elves and Men, Elves being immortal get the option of reincarnation when they receive judgement in the Halls of Mandos, whilst Man's fate is to perish and depart to the Timeless Halls AKA Heaven itself where Eru resides along with the other Ainur.
The way Robert speaks, especially how he ends the videos, makes me think that he could spend fifteen minutes explaining how to unclog an S-bend, and I'd still come away feeling like I had learned some profound truth to meditate on.
Gandalf - unblocks using a Word of Command. Saruman - unblocks using blasting powder (doesn't end well). Radagast - gives up and goes in the woods, apologising to the local squirrels.
Truly fantastic content every time, thank you for your continued great work
Since Glorfindel appears to Frodo as he is 'on the other side' at one point, presumably Glorfindel, Galadriel and Elrond saw him in both worlds simultaneously at all times.
Gandalf was able to hide his spirit from the world. Otherwise, he would have been useless to the Fellowship of the ring. Kind of like Glorfindel, who couldn't hide his spiritual nature and the Nazgul would have been able to spot hie from the air many miles away.
Not one of the Fellowship, but how much did Grima Wormtongue know, I wonder... What did Saruman tell him and what of it did he comprehend?
That would be a great topic for another video: did any character in LotR or The Hobbit know about any of the other Istari being Maiar?
Little, and less.
@@danieleverts3064 And did they know Sauron and the Balrogs were Maiar?
I would initially think they had an inkling, given Frodo recognizing Glorfindel as being different, separate from others at the Council.
I believe the same could be discerned about Gandalf.
Thank you so much for your work, Robert! This channel has brought me hours of entertainment and inspiration.
Man i absolutely love your stuff, i rarely coment on yt and just want to say thank you, and wish you luck for the future to come❤️❤️❤️❤️
Quickly misread Maia as Mafia and was confused for a sec
"That's a nice ring you got there, Sauron. It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it."
Glad I'm not the only one who read Mafia
Me too for a moment!
To be fair, the Wizards had a hold on things. 🤷🏻♂️
Using the ring for good? Fuggedaboudit!
I thought ‘Servant of the secret fire’ would have been a giveaway for those members of the Fellowship who suspected or had the knowledge to interpret that. (So definitely not Pippin 😂)
Lots of tiers of servants, though. Everyone knew he was a powerful figure - well, everyone except random hometown hobbits who only ever saw him taking Bilbo off on crazy adventures and making fireworks and whatnot (which...I've just realized the visits he takes to the Shire that are off page (particularly those before Bilbo finds this mysterious magic ring that's worth keeping tabs on) is probably him taking a holiday, visiting simple, carefree folk, who have no idea of the burden he's under trying to manage the affairs of an entire continent.) But there's lots of forms that can take.
Most of the fellowship probably wouldn't know the lore about the Secret Fire. Theology doesn't seem to come up much in The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings - at least not in the sense of it being a serious field of academic study. There's some vague allusions to things like the Sun being "she" for Elves and Hobbits but "he" for humans, but it doesn't get much deeper than that. Honestly I think that limits it to just Aragorn, Legolas and maybe Frodo and Gimli. (Frodo because he's read a good chunk of Bilbo's library, Gimli because if you go far enough back in Dwarven lore, there's probably some version of the story about Dwarves being created and Eru's blessing being needed to grant them full sapience.)
But also, in that particular moment, when a horrendous demon is confronting the most powerful and learned being you've ever met (who has just told you to run for your life, because you don't have a hope of fighting it), is this really the time you're pondering the theological implications of what "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Arnor" means? If you're religious, you're probably praying to whoever you pray to, sure, but you're probably not processing that sentence for clues as to Gandalf's identity.
Is the nature of "the secret fire" ever explained at length anywhere? Perhaps In Deep Geek has mentioned in other videos (I'm only just starting to watch them.)
@@jeffreylewis8019 I always interpreted it as cognate with "the Flame Imperishable" that Melkor is said to have sought in the Ainulindale. Effectively, the power of Eru Iluvatar.
@@ptorq I think of it that way as well but I don't believe it's ever explicitly stated
@@jeffreylewis8019 Didn't dig into sources, but according to the middle earth/tolkien wiki, it's a reference to Eru Illuvitar and the Fires of Creation.
Basically Gandalf is saying "I'm a direct servant of God"
As usual Robert you state your case with evidence and logic, but most importantly, with kindness. It’s a pleasure listening to you illuminate this world for us.
I think Frodo‘s comments towards the end (something like “… he was once of a noble kind…), when the other hobbits wanted to kill Saruman, suggest that he had found out after the ring was destroyed, since he had never heard of Saruman before the quest.
good point
I always got the impression that the Elves knew. How Legolas kneels and apologizes to Gandalf for firing his arrow at him in Fanghorn made me think he was apologizing for basically...shooting at an Angel.
"We have to conclude Tolkien didn't think it was important for us to know who Gandalf was" In fact, he thought the opposite.
That it wouldn't make sense to publish LotR without publishing the Silmarillion first. So it's not like he didn't intend to explain it, more like he couldn't within the constraints of his publisher.
Your videos always scratch an itch!
Glorfindel definitely could have known.
Glorfindel wasn't a member of the Fellowship
@bgross685 did you watch the video before making this comment?
I vividly recall a moment in which Pippin realizes that Gandalf must have been very old, finding it odd, but I don’t remember him or anyone else wondering what was he. Maybe it didn’t matter to them. Even Cirdan only imagined who Gandalf really was and what was his purpose, and he was the first to see him arrive in Middle-earth.
Although not of the Fellowship directly, I also believe Tom Bombadil would have known; Gandalf alludes to them having had conversations in the past - and Bombadil seems to intuitively know things others do not.
One would assume that Tom Bombadil knew. Especially as Gandalf says at the end of ROTK that he is going to have a long conversation with Tom. I feel he'd want to speak with someone who knew and understood his true nature.
Brilliant video, you have such a great understanding of Tolkien and such a gift to communicate it!
Gandalf hints to Denethor at what he is, saying "all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care ... For I also am a steward. Did you not know? "
Man it just does my heart good to see it spelled out here how the other folk of Middle Earth thought of Gandalf. Like the expression of 'What was Gandalf?' So interesting that many think of him as something unknown or unknowable, unless they had some special insight. It's almost as if the word 'Wizard' is used to refer to a separate class of being, rather than a vocation or profession. The fact that Tolkien leaves these things somewhat ambiguous just adds fuel to the fire of our imaginations!
Do you have to be a Maia in order to be a servant of the Secret Fire?
And I could only hope to tap into the wellspring of joy, that fountain of mirth, enough to set a kingdom laughing were it to gush forth, that our Mithrandir kept just under the surface. May we all partake of it in our lives and beyond! Namárie, Tenn’ enomentielva!
I think it would be funny for an elf when first meeting thinking it was just another old human only to meet them later.
Elf: You! Your still alive, how?
Old man: Oh, hello there. I met you a few years ago did I?
Elf: That was 200 years ago!!
Old man: Was it, my how time flys.
During the first age, Gandalf went about the Elves in eleven form or invisible. He guided the first elves through whispered suggestions. So I think his nature was to not tell people who he was. Since the Miair powers were reduced when sent into the East I consider that they were changed enough to not compare to a Maiar anymore. They took on the role of wizard completely. Those with power might recognize power but I think most knew nothing more than a wizard. (I know I misspelled & possibly used some wrong terms but hopefully my point comes through.)
My coworkers and I just had a lengthy discussion about this exact topic. At least know there is something to clear up the arguments we had.
I wish I had co-workers who are interested in Tolkien...
Wouldn’t the balrog have figured it out after Gandolf announced he was a servant of the secret fire & battling with him?
The balrog should have figured it out, and probably detected the spirit form directly.
But the balrog was sure it could take Olorin in a fight and nearly did.
I think Durin's Bane sensed the presence of another Maia and that was part of why it pursued the Fellowship; it was worried that its hiding place had been discovered.
Yes the Balrog would've 100% known. They are also intelligent beings who happen to also be Maia.
Gandalf describes it using a counter-spell against him, which nearly broke him. Either at that moment or before, was probably when it knew beyond a doubt.
Either way, I honestly don't think the Balrog even cared. No Balrog would have ever been perturbed by Olorin in his previous usual form, either. Fact that he had a frail physical from for it to smash probably enticed Durin's Bane all the more.
I don't think the Balrog would have cared to be honest. I mean you come into my house... I'm squatting here but still, you're breaking into my house I'm just gonna put you to sleep.
Knocked out of the park once again. "Everyone who met Gandolf knew his character." Absolutely love your ability to get to the soul of fantasy and let it shine.
I suspect Celeborn knew as well. He was after all married to Galadriel whom we know was born and raised in Valinor and had direct experience with the Valar and the Maiar.
Not only that he lived in Doriath so he knew Melian, it's the same argument that this video used for Oropher (and maybe Thranduil). He definitively knew, I think his reaction to Gandalf's death was more of a "damn, we needed him and I doubt the Valar would send him back again" than thinking he was gone for good.
5:48 : I wouldn’t underestimate Sam on this one.
He is the one who sang about Gil Galad even before reaching Rivendell, and he had already the intuition at that time that they would go to Mordor…
Sam has always been interested in knowledge of ancient times and far more wise, that he seemed. He may have learned a lot during the time of fellowship among Elves in Rivendell and Lorien.
I would definitely not put him in the same category than Pippin and Merry.
That’s not for nothing that he ends his life in Valinor so at least, before the end of the LOTR, when he saw Gandalf sailing back to West, he would have figure it out.
Never forget that Sam is the final author of the Red Book of Westmarch, a major source of his legendarium according to Tolkien himself.
And of course, for having been a ring bearer during the war, Frodo would have figured it out before the end as well.
Not during the march to the Mount Doom, but certainly before his own departure in the West, after seeing Gandalf had survived the Balrog after all.
Once again, Bilbo, writer of the Song of Earendill, Frodo and Sam are a major source of our own knowledge about Arda.
I genuinely wonder if Saruman was actually more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, or if Gandalf was simply trusting that his path forward would become clear as it was intended. After all, Gandalf seemed to be more keenly aware than any of the Istari about fate and futures. Yes, Gandalf the White is more "powerful," but it could be simply because he has thrown off his old cloak and assumed the role of Saruman as the dialogue seems to indicate, and therefore needs less to cover his power.
We are course forgetting he wielded Nenya as well. The other ring wearers would know for certain, although not mentioned in this excellent discourse.
Even if a person if middle Earth knew he was a Maia, that doesn't mean they knew if a maia could die at the hands of a great evil (Belrog).
Excellent video Robert! Thanks a lot.
Fascinating, thank you Robert, you always find the best obscure subjects to study
In this, as in other videos, I appreciate the chance to see many different artistic depictions from over the decades of these familiar characters.
'Gandalf' opened his heart to Aragorn.
-Maybe, he told Aragorn 'everything'.
I think Frodo definitely figured it out offscreen, between the defeat of Sauron and when he'll have had it confirmed after sailing into the west themselves. But not before the split of the fellowship.
I think that, by the time they returned to the Shire, Frodo had a pretty good idea what Gandalf (and the other Istari) were even if he didn't have a name to put to it. Consider his final confrontation with Saruman at Sharkey's End and what he says of him.
I love this series.
The Lord of the Rings books were the first books that I really connected with as a child, they’re still my favourites and I adore the films too.
These talks are giving me a new perspective all these years later.
I’m pretty sure Aragorn knew exactly but Gandalf was still clearly lost for the time being so he had to lead the fellowship. Also he didn’t seem too shocked when he realised Gandalf had returned. More shocked that he was changed
Honestly, the interesting question is "If Pippin had asked Gandalf what exactly he was, would Gandalf have explained?"
I loved this, thank you! Regarding the stakes perceived by the fellowship around Gandalf's mortality -- I'm thinking that even if you were sure Gandalf was a maia, you wouldn't necessarily know that he could come back after a few days to continue the quest! After all, the Balrog didn't return. I guess there would have been little to no lore on resurrections, maia or otherwise, and only the one-off example of Glorfindel to go by, and that was Ages ago. Did Gandalf himself even know that he'd be back, or when?
Right, I think there's a difference between immortal in essence and able to return to Middle Earth in a new body. There's absolutely no hint that Saruman will come back after Grima kills him. It seems like without the direct intervention of the Valar, killing a Maia's embodied form is effective for removing them from Middle Earth - the same way elves are immortal, but can also be killed.
As always the illustrations here are wonderful ❤
What is true power? Being capable of bringing forth a being as incredible as Gandalf with nothing but a thought. Tolkien was indeed very powerful.
Heey... I just opened the video to comment that I REALLY appreciate your choice to display the correct singular form for "maia" in a title. It's frustrating how few people seem to know it, even some hardcore fans.
I wonder if Frodo, Sam, Gimli and Legolas (if he didn't already know) learned what Gandalf was when they sailed west.
Brilliantly said Robert.
I think Celeborn knew his identity as much as Galdriel, Elrond and Cirdan. Remember Celeborn lived in Doriath as well and knew of the Maiar. I think the reasons he and Galadriel reacted differently is because she and Gandalf had a connection as ring bearers and Celeborn didn't.
That first pic of the Wizards. Is the first Blue Wizard TIM?? The hat he is holding looks just like TIM's from Monty Python's Holy Grail.
One thing that throws a wrench in the works regarding the idea of Legolas or Aragorn knowing/guessing that Gandalf was a Maia: the despair they exhibit between the exit from Moria and the recuperation in Lothlorien. This can be somewhat tempered by the fact that they would also likely understand that a Balrog is also a Maia of sorts, though even at their most powerful portrayals, they seem to be somewhat lesser than the Maiar who served the Valar. (And indeed, whatever limits were imposed on the Istari seem to be roughly equivalent, given how closely matched Gandalf and the Balrog are in his description of their battle (it's not detailed enough to know for sure, but the fact that he struck down the Balrog and seems to have promptly *died* before being sent back certainly indicates he was taking about as much as he was giving)
My read on things, in short, is that they both had an understanding that he was something beyond Man or Elf, but didn't have an in depth understanding of exactly what tier that means. They'd both be aware of Maiar and Valar above even them as two kinds of being that fit that "beyond Man or Elf" description, but Aragorn at least is probably well aware of the existence of other beings that qualify (given his activities around Bree, would be very surprised to hear Aragorn didn't know of Tom Bombadil for one - not suggesting they were friends or even met directly, but if you're going to be defending an area from threats, knowing you've got someone holding down the western approaches just by being...whatever Tom Bombadil is... is critical strategic information).
This justifies the despair at his loss in Moria too - while they know he's something beyond Man or Elf, they both know balrogs are *also* in that category...and since they don't know exactly what his deal is (or, for that matter, exactly how powerful a Balrog is - both are far too young to have any direct experience with them in the old days. Conversely, Galadriel is going "oh how cute, they're afraid Gandalf is going to be beaten by a Balrog! It'll be fine!"
Frodo: By the way, did you know Gandalf was a Maia?
Sam: What the F is a Maia?
Frodo: Kinda like an angel
Pippin: What the F is an angel?
Frodo: Like, and emissary of God or something
Merry: What the F is a God?
Pippin: Oh, I know that one, "to us, like farmer Maggot to his sheep" or something like that
Merry: A pervert?
Gandalf, listening from the other room: I really need to start a school at the Shire bro, this is getting out of hand
Aragorn: Can they even read?
Gimly: What the F is a read?
Legolas: One of those plants that grow next to rivers
I remember when I finished reading Lord of the Rings for the first time, over 20 years ago now, I was so confused as to why Gandalf had an elvish ring of power. Was he an elf the whole time? I asked on a Middle-earth forum what exactly he was. That was when I first read the word "Maia" and realized I had much more reading to do.
I wonder how the conversation would go if Bilbo/Frodo asked. "What actually ARE you Gandalf?". Either "Mind yourself Master Baggins!", explains in detail about Maia, or gives a nice cryptic answer.
I really appreciate that you use hand drawn art (and not A.I.) to illustrate your videos, thank you.
In almost every way, the Istari were equivalent to extremely powerful Elves -- immortal beings incarnate in potentially immortal bodies, but vulnerable to physical death by violence. The death and return of Gandalf looks very much like the death and return of Glorfindel.
It's crucial to remember that the distinctions in nature and power between the beings of Ëa are hazy and porous. When an Elf can wound a Vala and a Maia can have a child with an Elf, it becomes clear that we are not dealing with strictly boxed categories and power levels. This is of course strongly reminiscent of Norse mythology, which has a very similar not-quite-hierarchy of beings.
Quite an interesting thought to posit! No one really asked Gandalf about who he was, as far as I recall. Also cool to note that 'maiar' never appears in the 'canon' published works. They all must have thought it was a miracle when Gandalf became The White
Maybe the valar but a spell on the Istari preventing people from wondering about their nature.
Thank you, Robert.
I'm pretty sure most people in Middle-Earth knew Gandalf was Holy, in some way. Very few actually know the details.
Yeah, there's no way Aragorn doesn't know who or broadly what he is, and while Legolas probably doesn't know the details, he's clearly going to be able to guess.
Other than that- Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel certainly; Celeborn, Glorfindel, and Thranduil probably have a very good idea, and a handful of other elves, and a few high ranking or lore-studious Numenorians (in Gondor or among the rangers) might be able to work it out.
Like several other names, notably those of dwarves, Tolkien lifted the name Gandalf from the Elder Edda.
11:55 A proper depiction of the Balrog, thank you.
Agreed!
yep, not keen on the Big Furnace Monster Type VI Demon approaches
True. A "demon of fire and shadow." So maybe they could have had him backed by a "huge shadow that extended out like huge wings." Note that Tolkien never once said Balrogs had wings.