Oh my gosh I completely related to your story. I was in a relationship for 6 years, we were engaged, it became abusive and I moved back home at 27. Moved out again after two years and I no longer want children, marriage, or cohabitation. I now live alone and have never been more at peace. I LOVE having my own space. I’m also introverted. Solo poly is perfect for me. We seem so alike! Thank you for sharing your story.
I really related to the sentiment about feeling like you've missed a lot of your life due to mental illness and needing a lot of space and energy to start living finally. It's so helpful to hear someone talk about how they experience solo polyamory internally. I've had these same feelings for years and felt that I was a selfish or immature person for craving this much autonomy. It's really eye opening to hear someone just own their needs and still have self esteem. I have a lot of questions about how solo polyamory works if you're disabled and unable to practically afford to live fully with this much autonomy. If I weren't disabled/if housing wasn't so expensive, I would definitely live this way. I wonder if there's a way to get most of these needs met while living with others, even if it's just on an emotional level practicing solo polyamory.
Thank you for this talk!!!! After doing many forms of CNM over 15 years, swinging, heirarchy... solo is definitely my identity. For me it means no kids, no legal marriage, no cohabitating or financially meshing. BUT the main stereotype is that solo poly does not involve deep emotional connections. I have an anchor partner who I love very much and I see a future with.
Rosso you sound so much like I am it’s incredible. We are almost identical from how you describe. I feel like I have been like this all my life and that can be read through my past history of marriages children and relationships. I too love design, arts and like my own space. Looking into MBTI personality types again after many years I am an INFP -T (Introvert Intuitive Feeling Perceptive - Turbulent) ‘Mediator’ and the great job DJ Drenth is doing in this circle has made the system very accurate. What Carl Jung discovered is a perforation in the fabric of the universe. In the study of the different types for those who would prefer an open relationship/poly - the more broader NP’s come up as most likely & NFP’s more specific. We are also the more likely to be infidel in terms of societal/religious structures. I absolutely love how you speak - we are so aligned - and I think we are a fair bit rare as well. I have been consuming loads of poly videos and Esther Perel is doing great work in helping break down the barriers. I am in a relationship and have been to many counsellors on my partners request to rid myself of this demon and my sisters tell me to wake up to myself this can’t happen in a small community. I wanted a couple of our friends to come into our relationship and that’s what started it this time. For me it is a much superior way and is also the future. I share this with my sons in their late teens early twenties. I want them to know there are alternatives. My forty year old daughter is absolutely opposed. But no one is game enough to even look - it is such a threat to them - but time heals everything. When the majority of the world takes this on you will see massive changes in everything - the way sex is viewed how our communities develop - socially we should see big pickups - child raring by community maybe less children and a natural population reduction to suit conditions. Hopefully a better mulching together of all the religions and cults - to that of universal intelligence - education and learning will change around this as well - hopefully we will live a more natural way with nature and her powers.
Thank you for the talk!!! About the point that people are quickly jumping to saying unethical behavior is not polyamory - I guess also minority Stress plays into the issue. Because polyamorous people are a minority, what comes with discrimination, they are directly pushed into Defence mode. Does that make sense?
Are you talking about me‽ this sounds like my last relationship!!! I wanted to be chosen and to feel worthy of being loved by someone , I changed from being solo poly to monogamous with a guy that was married and poly(he no longer wanted polyamory) within 3 months then he quickly moved in with me… long story short he almost raped me after he got drunk(repeatedly had asked him to stop) telling me that he can’t see me as an equal because he can just overpower me… this solidifies my desire to NEVER live with anyone person like this…
Do you know any solo polyamorists who've identified as such for at least 8-10 years? I'd rather listen to a conversation with someone who has way more experience in the subject. To me her now choices seem to be a symptom of a failed and abusive relationship, and not because it's something she truly wants. I wonder if her previous relationship lasted for 10 or more years, would she still share this opinion.
She literally expressed quiet clearly that this is something she wants for herself, irrespective of that relationship. It was a catalyst for her discovering that & she has lived experience & is communicating that lived experience as solopoly person. The amount of time someone is or isn't in a relationship does not indicate the validity of their CHOICES in identifying & living that. I can understand the need for longitudal perspective, I just find it dismissive of the whole conversation to project that kind of positioning on someone.
@@itcanbedonedollars3693 Well imagine, people can have different opinions! I simply don't agree. Because in most cases you wouldn't be making the same choices in a clear mental state and agitated one. I asked if OP knows more solo poly people who've identified as such for a significant amount of time and are certain that that is what they want. Because what I've gathered from this interview is that this is not the case for the interviewee.
@@dawnriddler Thankfully neither one of us is the expert or determiner on this persons lived experience & choice. Speaking from experience, I'd have not needed to stay in that relationship beyond the point of toxicity to validify for anyone what my sexual identity is. It's enough for people to say that this is their choice & this is how they identify right now. Hopefully you can find the longitudal representation of someone who fits the narrative of solo poly validity post toxic relationship you need.
@@dawnriddler your point is completely valid. She might be truly poly but it’s hard to tell unless you’ve been doing it for a while and in a clear state.
Problem is, most solo-poly people are just all about themselves while using, leading on, hurting, and discarding other people around them. And they can’t even see that and use mental gymnastics to justify their behavior. They use phrases like “Everything Ends” which sets them up for subconscious self-sabotage in relationships. They don’t commit to anyone(s) and so don’t even know how to commit. They have insecure attachment styles (fearful , avoidant, anxious, etc) vs the secure attachment style it takes to have a fulfilling lifelong relationship. Never get with these types unless you’re another person looking to use and discard when inconvenient. I’ll be interested to see the data on solo-poly as they get older, their friends figure out what’s actually important in life before they do, their friends only stick around because they pity them, and then those solo-poly people finally realize they’ve never built any real, permanent and meaningful connections with partners. I’m betting a good percentage will self-delete when they realize they’ve done nothing in life to actually improve other people’s lives. INTERdependence, as apposed to Independence or Codependency, is super important for humans. Something lost on most lifestyles including traditional marriage.
This feels a bit extreme and like it's reinforcing the seeming absolutism of the relationship escalator; that it's imperative to move up on the escalator or you're not being fulfilled. What exactly makes you inclined to think they aren't making deep, personal, long lasting relationships? And I really have to object to you classing their past relationships as meaningless. Just because a relationship doesn't work out or shifts doesn't make it meaningless. Someone would likely only continue a relationship if it were meaningful. Even if a solo-polyamorous person lost 100% of their romantic and/or sexual relationships that doesn't mean they can't still have long lasting, strong, and important friendships. I think critiquing trends you might see in solo-polyamorous people is a good thing but that's not how this comes across. Like, what exactly are they doing that leads people on? It's not hard for me to believe that unethical and/or unhealthy forms of solo-polyamory probably centered around not communicating what you're looking for.
@@Shamazya I'm basing this on the research I was able to find (which admittendly isn't a lot) and the the fact that the majority of the people talking about it tend to have the traits I mentioned. It's entirely possible that the people discussing it are poor representatives, and I also believe that anytime you label yourself as anything, you're filtering out potential partners. Some of those filters are nessessary (ethical nonmonagomous for example, filters out the people who only want monogamy) but Solo Polyamory, if people really start looking into it as I did, they will likely either be inclined to avoid those people who label themselves as such, or you'll attract the types of people you don't want (Machiavellian, Narcasistic, etc.)
@@i4L_Podcast If the people discussing it were poor representations of the concept, is there a term you'd put forward to better represent what they're talking about? It's fine if you can't but if there is something better out there then I think that makes a good jumping off point for both the audience and the presenters to explore further. And like Ro, the person being interviewed, said it's a term you are probably better off asking the person using it what they mean because it really isn't all that concrete. What are your thoughts on her definition, does it match up with what your research described solo polyamory as? Her definition was: "It's really about rejecting the idea of the relationship escalator as the only way to define whether a relationship is committed or progressing or good or fulfilling." Can you share some of the research that you've come across? I'm interested in what a study on Solo Polyamorists looks like!
@@Shamazya I'd say you're Single and Asexual but looking for a committed lifelong partner, and then get into more detail when people want to know. Any label over-simplifies things, and we all know people are FAR more complicated than a simple label. Especially when that label carries some potentially negative connotations. For example, I could say I'm a child-free demisexual switch, and you'll likely have an image in your head that doesn't describe everything (or really, anything of actual substance) about me. Still, it'll put a preconceived notion about me in your head, good or bad. Just saying "ethically non-monogamous" puts a preconceived idea in people's heads: many immediately think "oh, he just doesn't want to commit." People are way more complex than all these labels we ascribe to them or ourselves. Regarding research, it's like researching anything else; you gather as much data as possible, weigh the sources, and go from there. I also have some personal experience with this which, of course, is a single-case study and doesn't represent everything, but knowing the history of a person and how their labels evolved is very telling in and of itself. And yes, this person did adopt the label since she adopted narcissistic traits to protect herself from other narcissists, which is a fairly common thing to do but isn't a healthy coping mechanism and is self-harmful in the long run. I know this sounds like a copout, and it is a bit since I only have so much time and don't want to dwell on it too much more, but unfortunately, since I've been out of graduate school for a while and stopped getting used to logging research into Zotero, I don't have all the sources I used, but they are out there if you look... I'm sure healthy people are using the label since of course, you shouldn't stereotype people, but you also don't want to take the amount of time it takes to find out if they display the patterns I lay out below. As I said, though, it's a new term, so if you are going to use any label on yourself and have yet to do extensive research on how that might come across to others, you definitely should. You don't want to turn people off who could make a lifelong partner. Personally, anyone who mentions they are Solo Poly, I would immediately conclude them as someone possibly with many of the following traits (keep in mind not all of these are bad traits, but the combination of all of them paints a very clear picture of a certain accumulated personality disorder which you can probably guess): Highly attractive/magnetic personality. Engaging, energetic, and possesses emotional intelligence. Develops positive feelings based on shared interests. No perceived motivation to truly know and understand others, for example, saying "what happened, happened and couldn't have happened any other way" instead of a willingness to try and shift perspective (empathy). Has instances of seemingly blunted empathy. Has a history of repeated toxic relationships. Has a cycling self-image: "Do you think I'm pretty in the face/attractive/intelligent?" --next day-- "Oh, I'm over that. I don't care what people think of me". There are seemingly no concerns outside of their own needs and desires unless it feeds their ego, self-importance, or public image. Which, again, feeds their own needs and desires. Possible need to have people around who make them look/feel good. Need for praise. Seeking sexual satisfaction and short-term transactional relationships ("Everything Ends"). Prefers relationships with fewer-to-no expectations ("I only have scraps of time"). The primary objective is to enjoy uncommitted pleasure (sexual or non-sexual), even if that means leading the other person into thinking it's something more to avoid rejection. Passion in relationships is directed toward their own projections, fantasies, and expectations. Shows love but only under very specific conditions. Need to share intimate experiences with others to support own ego and self-esteem (sharing intimate videos with others, posting photos to Social Media, etc.) Supports partner's needs and wants only when it's convenient and their ego is satisfied. Loses interest when expectations of commitment increase. An incessant need to appear as a leader. Winning is always the goal. Frustration at not winning, especially when competing with a teammate (vs. solo) against another team. They are worried about how they appear to other people in public and become angry when appearances feel betrayed by another. Becomes cold and critical when challenged or they don't get their way. They might use blame, criticism, and contempt to ward off perceived shame. Immediate need to tell friends not to talk to someone when they break up; unwillingness for friends to hear any side but their own. Uses any excuse that will ensure no contact, such as suggesting emotional abuse or "it got physical." After devaluing their partner, looking elsewhere to prop up their inflated ego. So yes, admittedly, the above list is highly biased based on one case study; however, the other information I found from others identifying as such, as well as articles written about Solo Poly tended to show similar patterns, which of course, is not very healthy lol. In your case, I would hope you do NOT have the above patterns, but if you do, there is help for that if you want to be a better person :). If you do run into anyone with ALL of those above traits, run. Run fast, run far. They will get in your head and possibly even require therapy to get over.
But again, this is from your own perspective, not everyone shares this opinion or wants to live this way. And that's fine. Also, no one is required to improve anyone else's life. You can, but you aren't obligated to do so.
She's doing polyamory right. She values both her partners equally, albeit in different ways (one romantic and one not). It's not like one holds authority or veto power over the other.
Oh my gosh I completely related to your story. I was in a relationship for 6 years, we were engaged, it became abusive and I moved back home at 27. Moved out again after two years and I no longer want children, marriage, or cohabitation. I now live alone and have never been more at peace. I LOVE having my own space. I’m also introverted. Solo poly is perfect for me. We seem so alike! Thank you for sharing your story.
I really related to the sentiment about feeling like you've missed a lot of your life due to mental illness and needing a lot of space and energy to start living finally. It's so helpful to hear someone talk about how they experience solo polyamory internally. I've had these same feelings for years and felt that I was a selfish or immature person for craving this much autonomy. It's really eye opening to hear someone just own their needs and still have self esteem. I have a lot of questions about how solo polyamory works if you're disabled and unable to practically afford to live fully with this much autonomy. If I weren't disabled/if housing wasn't so expensive, I would definitely live this way. I wonder if there's a way to get most of these needs met while living with others, even if it's just on an emotional level practicing solo polyamory.
Thank you for this talk!!!! After doing many forms of CNM over 15 years, swinging, heirarchy... solo is definitely my identity. For me it means no kids, no legal marriage, no cohabitating or financially meshing. BUT the main stereotype is that solo poly does not involve deep emotional connections. I have an anchor partner who I love very much and I see a future with.
Thanks for this talk. I didn’t know the term solo polyamory but I can relate to everything that was said, very keen to explore it. 😊
Thank you for this. I literally just learned the term solo polyamory today. Very good information to help me on my journey.
Rosso you sound so much like I am it’s incredible. We are almost identical from how you describe. I feel like I have been like this all my life and that can be read through my past history of marriages children and relationships. I too love design, arts and like my own space. Looking into MBTI personality types again after many years I am an INFP -T (Introvert Intuitive Feeling Perceptive - Turbulent) ‘Mediator’ and the great job DJ Drenth is doing in this circle has made the system very accurate. What Carl Jung discovered is a perforation in the fabric of the universe.
In the study of the different types for those who would prefer an open relationship/poly - the more broader NP’s come up as most likely & NFP’s more specific. We are also the more likely to be infidel in terms of societal/religious structures. I absolutely love how you speak - we are so aligned - and I think we are a fair bit rare as well. I have been consuming loads of poly videos and Esther Perel is doing great work in helping break down the barriers.
I am in a relationship and have been to many counsellors on my partners request to rid myself of this demon and my sisters tell me to wake up to myself this can’t happen in a small community. I wanted a couple of our friends to come into our relationship and that’s what started it this time. For me it is a much superior way and is also the future. I share this with my sons in their late teens early twenties. I want them to know there are alternatives. My forty year old daughter is absolutely opposed. But no one is game enough to even look - it is such a threat to them - but time heals everything.
When the majority of the world takes this on you will see massive changes in everything - the way sex is viewed how our communities develop - socially we should see big pickups - child raring by community maybe less children and a natural population reduction to suit conditions. Hopefully a better mulching together of all the religions and cults - to that of universal intelligence - education and learning will change around this as well - hopefully we will live a more natural way with nature and her powers.
Thank you for the talk!!!
About the point that people are quickly jumping to saying unethical behavior is not polyamory - I guess also minority Stress plays into the issue. Because polyamorous people are a minority, what comes with discrimination, they are directly pushed into Defence mode. Does that make sense?
Yay! I also tend to grow very close to my partners while sharing space.
How do you not have more subscribers?
Are you talking about me‽ this sounds like my last relationship!!! I wanted to be chosen and to feel worthy of being loved by someone , I changed from being solo poly to monogamous with a guy that was married and poly(he no longer wanted polyamory) within 3 months then he quickly moved in with me… long story short he almost raped me after he got drunk(repeatedly had asked him to stop) telling me that he can’t see me as an equal because he can just overpower me… this solidifies my desire to NEVER live with anyone person like this…
10k followers? One year later I see 4980 subs.
Gosh... I feel like she dated my ex lol😅😅😅
Do you know any solo polyamorists who've identified as such for at least 8-10 years? I'd rather listen to a conversation with someone who has way more experience in the subject. To me her now choices seem to be a symptom of a failed and abusive relationship, and not because it's something she truly wants. I wonder if her previous relationship lasted for 10 or more years, would she still share this opinion.
She literally expressed quiet clearly that this is something she wants for herself, irrespective of that relationship. It was a catalyst for her discovering that & she has lived experience & is communicating that lived experience as solopoly person. The amount of time someone is or isn't in a relationship does not indicate the validity of their CHOICES in identifying & living that. I can understand the need for longitudal perspective, I just find it dismissive of the whole conversation to project that kind of positioning on someone.
@@itcanbedonedollars3693 Well imagine, people can have different opinions! I simply don't agree. Because in most cases you wouldn't be making the same choices in a clear mental state and agitated one. I asked if OP knows more solo poly people who've identified as such for a significant amount of time and are certain that that is what they want. Because what I've gathered from this interview is that this is not the case for the interviewee.
@@dawnriddler Thankfully neither one of us is the expert or determiner on this persons lived experience & choice. Speaking from experience, I'd have not needed to stay in that relationship beyond the point of toxicity to validify for anyone what my sexual identity is. It's enough for people to say that this is their choice & this is how they identify right now. Hopefully you can find the longitudal representation of someone who fits the narrative of solo poly validity post toxic relationship you need.
@@dawnriddler your point is completely valid. She might be truly poly but it’s hard to tell unless you’ve been doing it for a while and in a clear state.
My hubby moved in on our first date and 6 months is too fast lol
Wow you are for the streets nice.
Problem is, most solo-poly people are just all about themselves while using, leading on, hurting, and discarding other people around them. And they can’t even see that and use mental gymnastics to justify their behavior. They use phrases like “Everything Ends” which sets them up for subconscious self-sabotage in relationships. They don’t commit to anyone(s) and so don’t even know how to commit. They have insecure attachment styles (fearful , avoidant, anxious, etc) vs the secure attachment style it takes to have a fulfilling lifelong relationship. Never get with these types unless you’re another person looking to use and discard when inconvenient.
I’ll be interested to see the data on solo-poly as they get older, their friends figure out what’s actually important in life before they do, their friends only stick around because they pity them, and then those solo-poly people finally realize they’ve never built any real, permanent and meaningful connections with partners.
I’m betting a good percentage will self-delete when they realize they’ve done nothing in life to actually improve other people’s lives. INTERdependence, as apposed to Independence or Codependency, is super important for humans. Something lost on most lifestyles including traditional marriage.
This feels a bit extreme and like it's reinforcing the seeming absolutism of the relationship escalator; that it's imperative to move up on the escalator or you're not being fulfilled.
What exactly makes you inclined to think they aren't making deep, personal, long lasting relationships?
And I really have to object to you classing their past relationships as meaningless. Just because a relationship doesn't work out or shifts doesn't make it meaningless. Someone would likely only continue a relationship if it were meaningful.
Even if a solo-polyamorous person lost 100% of their romantic and/or sexual relationships that doesn't mean they can't still have long lasting, strong, and important friendships.
I think critiquing trends you might see in solo-polyamorous people is a good thing but that's not how this comes across. Like, what exactly are they doing that leads people on? It's not hard for me to believe that unethical and/or unhealthy forms of solo-polyamory probably centered around not communicating what you're looking for.
@@Shamazya I'm basing this on the research I was able to find (which admittendly isn't a lot) and the the fact that the majority of the people talking about it tend to have the traits I mentioned. It's entirely possible that the people discussing it are poor representatives, and I also believe that anytime you label yourself as anything, you're filtering out potential partners. Some of those filters are nessessary (ethical nonmonagomous for example, filters out the people who only want monogamy) but Solo Polyamory, if people really start looking into it as I did, they will likely either be inclined to avoid those people who label themselves as such, or you'll attract the types of people you don't want (Machiavellian, Narcasistic, etc.)
@@i4L_Podcast If the people discussing it were poor representations of the concept, is there a term you'd put forward to better represent what they're talking about?
It's fine if you can't but if there is something better out there then I think that makes a good jumping off point for both the audience and the presenters to explore further.
And like Ro, the person being interviewed, said it's a term you are probably better off asking the person using it what they mean because it really isn't all that concrete.
What are your thoughts on her definition, does it match up with what your research described solo polyamory as? Her definition was:
"It's really about rejecting the idea of the relationship escalator as the only way to define whether a relationship is committed or progressing or good or fulfilling."
Can you share some of the research that you've come across? I'm interested in what a study on Solo Polyamorists looks like!
@@Shamazya I'd say you're Single and Asexual but looking for a committed lifelong partner, and then get into more detail when people want to know. Any label over-simplifies things, and we all know people are FAR more complicated than a simple label. Especially when that label carries some potentially negative connotations. For example, I could say I'm a child-free demisexual switch, and you'll likely have an image in your head that doesn't describe everything (or really, anything of actual substance) about me. Still, it'll put a preconceived notion about me in your head, good or bad. Just saying "ethically non-monogamous" puts a preconceived idea in people's heads: many immediately think "oh, he just doesn't want to commit." People are way more complex than all these labels we ascribe to them or ourselves.
Regarding research, it's like researching anything else; you gather as much data as possible, weigh the sources, and go from there. I also have some personal experience with this which, of course, is a single-case study and doesn't represent everything, but knowing the history of a person and how their labels evolved is very telling in and of itself. And yes, this person did adopt the label since she adopted narcissistic traits to protect herself from other narcissists, which is a fairly common thing to do but isn't a healthy coping mechanism and is self-harmful in the long run.
I know this sounds like a copout, and it is a bit since I only have so much time and don't want to dwell on it too much more, but unfortunately, since I've been out of graduate school for a while and stopped getting used to logging research into Zotero, I don't have all the sources I used, but they are out there if you look... I'm sure healthy people are using the label since of course, you shouldn't stereotype people, but you also don't want to take the amount of time it takes to find out if they display the patterns I lay out below. As I said, though, it's a new term, so if you are going to use any label on yourself and have yet to do extensive research on how that might come across to others, you definitely should. You don't want to turn people off who could make a lifelong partner. Personally, anyone who mentions they are Solo Poly, I would immediately conclude them as someone possibly with many of the following traits (keep in mind not all of these are bad traits, but the combination of all of them paints a very clear picture of a certain accumulated personality disorder which you can probably guess):
Highly attractive/magnetic personality.
Engaging, energetic, and possesses emotional intelligence.
Develops positive feelings based on shared interests.
No perceived motivation to truly know and understand others, for example, saying "what happened, happened and couldn't have happened any other way" instead of a willingness to try and shift perspective (empathy).
Has instances of seemingly blunted empathy. Has a history of repeated toxic relationships.
Has a cycling self-image: "Do you think I'm pretty in the face/attractive/intelligent?"
--next day--
"Oh, I'm over that. I don't care what people think of me".
There are seemingly no concerns outside of their own needs and desires unless it feeds their ego, self-importance, or public image. Which, again, feeds their own needs and desires.
Possible need to have people around who make them look/feel good.
Need for praise.
Seeking sexual satisfaction and short-term transactional relationships ("Everything Ends"). Prefers relationships with fewer-to-no expectations ("I only have scraps of time").
The primary objective is to enjoy uncommitted pleasure (sexual or non-sexual), even if that means leading the other person into thinking it's something more to avoid rejection.
Passion in relationships is directed toward their own projections, fantasies, and expectations.
Shows love but only under very specific conditions. Need to share intimate experiences with others to support own ego and self-esteem (sharing intimate videos with others, posting photos to Social Media, etc.)
Supports partner's needs and wants only when it's convenient and their ego is satisfied.
Loses interest when expectations of commitment increase.
An incessant need to appear as a leader.
Winning is always the goal. Frustration at not winning, especially when competing with a teammate (vs. solo) against another team. They are worried about how they appear to other people in public and become angry when appearances feel betrayed by another.
Becomes cold and critical when challenged or they don't get their way.
They might use blame, criticism, and contempt to ward off perceived shame.
Immediate need to tell friends not to talk to someone when they break up; unwillingness for friends to hear any side but their own.
Uses any excuse that will ensure no contact, such as suggesting emotional abuse or "it got physical."
After devaluing their partner, looking elsewhere to prop up their inflated ego.
So yes, admittedly, the above list is highly biased based on one case study; however, the other information I found from others identifying as such, as well as articles written about Solo Poly tended to show similar patterns, which of course, is not very healthy lol.
In your case, I would hope you do NOT have the above patterns, but if you do, there is help for that if you want to be a better person :). If you do run into anyone with ALL of those above traits, run. Run fast, run far. They will get in your head and possibly even require therapy to get over.
But again, this is from your own perspective, not everyone shares this opinion or wants to live this way. And that's fine. Also, no one is required to improve anyone else's life. You can, but you aren't obligated to do so.
She's doing polyamory right. She values both her partners equally, albeit in different ways (one romantic and one not). It's not like one holds authority or veto power over the other.