I'm still mad they dropped the "Stormcloud and Cherryfall having feelings for each other" thing in Bramblestar's Storm. They should have been Moonpaw's parents imo
Neither of them are related to firestar/cloudtail, moon is going to be important for the series going forward, and that means she has to be part of that family line. Edit, should have specified that this isn't my personal opinion, this is just the Erin's MO.
Also there was the thing in Squirrelflight's Hope where he was the one comforting Sparkpelt after Larksong's death and making sure she ate. So that's two she-cats he could've gotten with and have the clan actually have at least some outsider blood but nope
ThunderClan really needs to take some inspiration from Iceland and make an app that warns you if you're about to get together with your first cousin...
Almost everyone in ThunderClan is a descendant of Firestar because everyone else died out or didn’t have kits (Daisy’s descendants not having kits, pre-Firestar cats being mates with Firestar’s descendants). Firestars bloodline has grown almost exponentially and then add in Cloudtail and his descendants and the incest problem becomes really evident.
@@Ellie-fu6vf I'm not for certain but I think it was implied Dust did have a bit of a crush on Sand; when Sand and Fire started growing closer there were definitely scenes pointing at Dust's jealousy that Sand was spending more time with Fire than with him. This was all before Dust fell in love with Fern.
I was baffled when they mentioned Bristlefrost’s dad was the son of Lionblaze when her mother is literally Ivypool because there was an ENTIRE ARC that hinged upon the fact that Ivypool/Dovewing were related to Lionblaze/Jayfeather. I’m much more understanding in cases where the average reader of the series wouldn’t know right away (I literally didn’t know who Fernsong’s parents were until that moment) but especially for Firestar’s descendants I would expect the authors to know better
Same, and also I had the horrible realization late in TBC that Bristlefrost, Stemleaf, and Spotfur are all related. I think this is an issue that's so deeply ingrained in the writing there's no way out anymore, I wish cats would interact with their families more often so everyone doesn't just forget who they're related to.
Willowbreeze and Graypool being half Windclan is a little detail I still really like. It gives the two clans history that makes the forest feel more alive than when everything happens in thunderclan all the time
the story with them and their parents in crookedstar's promise hit hard. getting forcefully taken away by a parent either because of divorce or some other legal reason is sadly grounded for some, and it terrified me as a kid, especially how no one did anything when they were taken
do wild cats have incestual relationships? yes. do cats have less genetic consequences from incest? yes. does that mean incest should be normalize in a book about wild cats? PROBABLY NOT BECAUSE THESE CATS HAVE INTELLIGENCE AND FEELINGS AND SOCIETIES COMPARABLE TO HUMANS.
Not only just comparable- but straight up in series like POT there's drama that hinges on characters' family relationship dynamics. How they perceive fatherhood and motherhood. It's one thing to just acknowledge two characters are related though they're shown to not care for each other like Bluefur/star and her father Stormtail it's whole nother thing to just add something that wasn't there just to fill in blanks. Making two characters who are siblings mates because you weren't paying attention is crazy...
The one relationship retcon I genuinely felt added something was making Tallstar have been "best friends" (read: in love with) Firestar's father. In TPB, Tallstar does seem to make a lot of allowances for Firestar - like the time Fireheart trespasses on WindClan land, and later tells Tallstar he was just putting his clan's needs first, and Tallstar basically says 'oh yeah no problem! Spoken like a true warrior!' He's consistently shown as having a fondness and respect for Firestar. When I read the first arc, it just came across as the main character getting special treatment... so adding the detail that Tallstar has a special reason to have a soft spot for Firestar actually made it make a bit more sense to me! Y'know, it felt like the writers might have actually checked that the characters actually *had positive interactions in the books that supported another layer of connection*. It boggles my mind that they don't seem to care about doing that with mate and familial relationships that have so much more ability to mess up the family trees and cast weird perspectives on existing relationships...
I did notice that! I always wondered why WindClan excused Firestar so much, but after reading Tallstar's Revenge, it makes far more sense. The book even says that Tallstar would treat Jake's kit like his own!
This is why I wish they kept the old mother rule. In the first arc, Bluestar mentions that Queen only need to declare the father if they want to. Heck we even see in action as Willowpelt didn’t say who her mate was, Fireheart only figured out it was Whitestorm due to how proud he look during the event. Add to the fact 3 of the 4 clan have easy access to twolegs place so easy to widen the gene pool via kit w/ outsider or they themselves are outsiders. The drama come out when the secret out or if the Clan know for sure thier was from outside the Clan ( Featherstorm of ShadowClan wasn’t close to any cat in her Clan and she spent most of her in Twoleg place so the guess correctly her kits were half kittypet) The Lake territory doesn’t help as the Twoleg place is kinda far on RiverClan side and all temporary settlements are unlikely to bring their pet cat on a trip.
It doesn't just help with bloodlines, but it's just a nice piece of world-building that was later dropped, much like 'all apprentices must travel to the Moonstone' which like... was only a think in the very first book.
Friendly reminder that this was never a rule. It's just a head canon fans made up to explain the fact that a lot of kits had unnamed parents. But I agree that we should go back to it. It's not like the dads usually have meaningful relationships with their kits so why being them up in the first place
I appreciate you emphasing how it makes writers unknowingly pair up related cats. I've seen others phrase it like the writers are making the bad decision to do so when it's absolutely that they just aren't aware which cats are related and how.
12:50 I believe that Ashfoot was actually confirmed to be Crowfeather’s mother in Starlight, when Onestar makes her deputy of WindClan (Crowfeather goes up to congratulate her afterwards). It’s not that big of an issue but her being his mother was established in the main series books.
This is where I'd love to create a dashboard devoted to keeping better track of cats, their ages, relationships, descriptions, and basic personalities. You could do something very fun with keeping track of a cast this size, and I guess I'm surprised such a massive franchise doesn't seem to have something similar
The Erin's lack of a series bible of any kind has created so many issues over the years, quite a few of them compounding on top of each other. The series is in desperate need of a hard reboot
It's honestly why I kinda wish we'd just get like a bit of a timeskip or something, enough time that we can feasibly have cats that have unknown ancestry outside of "Well my mom said I'm Firestar's great great great grandchild" or someone's a Tigerclone but no one remembers who Tigerclaw even was anymore. Just push the genetic reset button.
Exactly, we need a completely clean slate where all the characters are just spawned into existence and assumed to not be related to each other unless it's explicitly mentioned. No retconning "X's parents are actually Y and Z (which makes them the third cousin once removed of A and B)" nonsense. Imagine how much longer the inbreeding could have been held off if all the adults in Into the Wild were treated as if they were unrelated to each other!
What were the Erin's thinking by making sandstorm the daughter of brindleface, making an uncomfortable situation even more awkward, like sheesh, glad they changed it at least.
I like some of the retcons, like whitestorm being the nephew of bluestar, I found it sweet and it added an extra layer to their relationship(although it ruined some fans shipping between them😅).
I always think of Sandstorm, Dustpelt, and Ravenpaw as all being siblings. At least Sandstorm and Dustpelt. Sandstorm, Dustpelt, and Ravenpaw where all apprentices together, Ravenpaw's reaction to seeing Sandstorm as a warrior for the first time was cute, and it's confirmed that they all went to the Moonstone together.
A big reason in my warriors-inspired story cats are allowed to mate outside and between the Colonies. They just can't have strong relationships with those cats unless they join the Colony too. It also means I can spawn in as many kits as I want without needing to justify one of the parents, keeping things cleaner!
I just tend to add outsiders here in there and keep my family trees less confusing as possible lol I also keep them small not to make it so complicated.
My least favourite retcon is making Leopardfoot into Redtail, Spottedleaf, and Willowpelt's sibling. It makes Tigerstar Redtails nephew, despite the fact that Redtail is younger and in Redtails Debt, the way Redtail interacts with Tigerstar has weirdly romantic vibes??? Hes all impressed and practically swooning over Tiger and is like "i owe you my life" and it gives VERY gay vibes. I used to be a hardcore Tiger/Red shipper when I was younger and I still am to some extent, but every time i talk about it i have to preface it that "in my au where they have feelings for eachother Leopardfoot is NOT Redtails sister" for obvious reasons. I remember being a preteen and upon learning they were related being genuinely mortified. The Erins REALLY need a series bible, or to just do a reboot already!
I can understand it, as the 1st book was suppose to be the only book, and then the 1st arc was suppose to be the only arc, and then the first half of the 2nd arc was suppose to be the only new/extra books. But yeah, the retcons still shows/affects the universe as a whole in a bit dimmer light.
9:45 I think there’s a key difference though. Cinder, Bracken, Thorn, and Bright aren’t seen in the nursery. They just materialize as apps. Lion was already dead. So that doesn’t mess with my idea of Lionheart. However even before they were even named by the authors Brindleface’s kits are important, as they’re being nursed alongside Fireheart’s nephew, Cloudkit. No father is shone, you’d prolly assume it was a scamp like Darkstripe, maybe a passing loner. But Whitestorm? No. Not Whitestorm. It completely messes with his prior characterization. When Willowpelt announces her pregnancy, Whitestorm looks on with pride, but none of that happens with his “children” Ferncloud and Ashfur. Thanks for reading my submission. I hope to be at UIUC studying Warrior Catology this December
Age issues in Warriors are the worst! Morningflower is a super-old elder when her littermates are warriors, Ratscar being an elder in AVoS when Snowbird is still a strong warrior in modern ShadowClan, IVYTAIL OF SHADOWCLAN...
Saaaaaaame, I only stick with what the books told us. Thinking about who is related to who is such a head-ache, I just criticize the whole thing as a whole and leave it as it is.
I have a friend who used to read warrior cats and while I was kind of having the idea of writing an AU I thought about fixing the family tree. I was told good luck. It’s a mess.
Deadfoot didn't die in the BloodClan battle, he appears (along with Crowkit) in the Ravenpaw mangas which take place after Firestars Quest. Because of this I just say that Mudclaw being listed as the deputy in that book is an error
Acctuly he dies in the same battle as Gorsepaw in The Darkest Hour,mangas are written by somebody else and this a mistake in the manga rather then another book
@Aggnolia the book says "Deadfoot,the WindClan deputy,was lying very still with blood trickling down his flank" and I believe in another book its directly said that he died in a battle with ShadowClan and RiverClan,while it doesn't say he died here its very heavily implied
And I feel like some of these retcons are so pointless. Did we need a parent for Graystripe and Darkstripe? No.. not really. A parent for Ravenpaw, Dustpaw? No. Heck, they didn’t give Sandstorm any parents and that’s fine! I can understand needing to give some cats parents for prequel books, but I feel like other retcons, like the parents of young 1st arc cats to be unneeded and it only made things more messy and complimented when it didn’t need to be? Edit: Or they could’ve just made up more random cats and just say they died or something- Edit 2: or just add more useless and random background cats so cats like Spottedleaf, Redtail, and Leopardfoot aren’t siblings. Edit: and on the point of Bristlefrost not interacting with her siblings and parents, it frustrates me too lol. I feel like I’d care a lot more if she and Fernsong or Ivypool or her siblings had a lot more interactions. Same for pretty much any other recent protagonist but Frostpaw and Sunbeam, kinda.
I always considered Firestar's Quest as a problem in the timeline. The entire New Prophecy series was completed first. The ages of all the kits and apprentices and where they are in their training makes more sense if there is no reconned extra year.
I was waiting the entire video for you to mention Dustpelt being Ferncloud's uncle. Brindleface, Frostfur, Dustpelt, and Ravenpaw being siblings is the absolute worst familial retcon imo Edit: I also remembered that Brindleface and Frostfur being sisters makes Whitewing and Birchfall second cousins. And Lionheart being Frostfur's mate and Goldenflower's brother means Dovewing and Tigerheart are like second cousins once removed or something. And Ivypool is also Fernsong's second cousin. And Thriftear and Bayshine are from their family
The other issue here is that, in real life, these cats wouldn’t have an issue. While there can be genetic defects to inbreeding, cats do not have a problem socially with incest. But humans do, and humans are the ones writing and reading this, so clearly there has to be something done about it.
Wait, how are Jayfeather and Lionblaze related to Goldenflower? Brambleclaw isn't their biological father, so the only genetic tangle they have is being Firestar's grandsons through Leafpool.
So, I looked at the Family Tree Sunny linked in the description and if I understand it correctly, then (according to all the retcons) the Three are at least distantly related to Brambleclaw, through Tigerclaw, whose Mother Leopardfoot was Redtails sister, who got retconned to be Sandstorms father and therefore Leafpools and Squirrelflights grandfather. So that means (I think) that Leafpool (and also Squirrelflight) and Brambleclaw would be 2nd Cousins and the Three would be Brambleclaws 2nd Cousins once removed. I have no clue if that means they would be technically related to Goldenflower or not. Edit: However, Lionblazes children with Cinderheart WOULD be (more) directly related to Goldenflower, since Cinderheart is Brackenfurs daughter, who is Lionhearts son, who is Goldenflowers brother. So Cinderheart is Goldenflowers great-niece (if that's what it's called.) Cinderheart is actually ALSO related to Redtail, since her Grandmother would be Willowpelt, who is Redtails sister. Turns out, giving Sandstorm a father and then giving that father 4 siblings, caused more of a genetic tangle for their children than Firestar bringing his nephew to the clans. xD
In wolf packs. Everyone who isn't the leader is the leader's offspring of varying ages. And if anyone wants to have their own mate, they have to leave and form their own packs.
I really like this system and I wish these Wolf stories could remember that at least :/ Wolves aren't just "badass" groups, they are literal family and I usually get bothered when people create large wolf packs in fantasy where none of them are related + the Alpha/beta/sigma/omega system because THAT'S NOT how wolves work. It's kind of sad how romantized and dumb-folded these creatures were made in media.
Mousefur and Runningwind also works because NEITHER OF THEM HAD KITS unless you count Runningwind's off screen non-canon kits, which I don't. So deciding they were siblings the whole time doesn't make anyone in modern ThunderClan inbred in 3 different ways
Gosh I hate retcon relationships so much- In my rewrite of Warrior Cats me and my co-writer decided to make Rosetail and Thrushpelt Sandstorm's parents (Although they are said "half-sibilings" in the family tree, they never interacted as such :/) because Thrushpelt does have a pelt similiar to Sandstorm's, and we wanted to expand Rosetail's potential beyond being Bluestar's friend in canon. We also took the opportunity for Sandstorm to have a mother/daughter bond with her to make feel Sand more of her own character, and we made Rosetail's death more impactful by killing her in The Raging Storm and Sandstorm witnissing it. It's not like we shipp Rosetail x Thrushpelt or anything like that, we REALLY DON'T, we just wanted to do something that made sense and could add more to the story without being dramatically relevent but making more impact. We still wonder if making them Sandstorm's parents might be called problematic or not, so that's why I am putting it on the room here- But honestly, I really can't count retconned relationships as canon because they aren't mentioned in the books ONCE. You wouldn't even know they exist if you never had access to the site. To me, just telling somewhere else instead of showing certain fact in your story counts as a really bad writing and should never be put into serious consideration :/.
When trying to figure out my own OC family tree I realized just how difficult it was. I've gotten most of it down but I still have a ways to go before it's done
This is just a huge problem with the setting. Because cats can have multiple litter of kits in a very short time, things can get jumbled no matter what. My Warrior Cats roleplay server has a very similar problem to the canon books (or, *had*, I've since compiled a family tree to stop it from happening.) One of the things that kept happening, and will keep happening to us, is prominent characters have kits and retain their prominence. More people want to play their descendants, or they switch mates and the players want the new couple to have kits. We had a leader have something like 16 kits between 3 mates. My own character, Eagleblaze, and his mate had 11 over their time. It also creates strange dynamics. My character Yarrowstar had kits with his new mate, Cherryclaw. And we almost had his daughter with his first mate in the nursery with kits at the same time. Eagleblaze, again, is having kits with his mate while two of his own daughters have kits in the nursery. These cats multiply like cats. Which can be a problem sometimes
If Willowpelt is Graystripe’s mother that means that Spotfur and Stemleaf are in a way related Because Spotfur is the daughter of Cinderheart which is the daughter of Sorreltail, which is the daughter of Willowpelt, and Stemleaf is the son of Blossomfall, which is the daughter of Graystripe
a lot of the current issues in the family tree can be blamed entirely on lionblaze and cinderheart. i dont think even snowbird or ferncloud created this many issues with their kids
@@Huijiijjjjjjjihh Out of Ferncloud’s kits, only Spiderleg and Birchfall had kits (and only Birchfall’s kits had kits, both of Spiderleg’s are dead). So she only has direct descendants through Ivypool and Dovewing (who are luckily in different Clans now). Meanwhile out of the CinderLion kits, Sorrelstripe, Fernsong, and Spotfur had kits. The former two already have grandkits (with Thriftear and Bayshine having Moonpaw despite being first cousins). Snowbird has the most kits out of any cat in the series, but she only has grandkits through Berryheart and Yarrowleaf (with four still alive and living in ShadowClan). So yeah, CinderLion are definitely a reason for why the tree is so tangled. It doesn’t help that Cinderheart is related to Frostfur through her father though, as it makes her related to both Brightheart and Thornclaw’s descendants (with two of her kits becoming mates with two of those descendants).
Technically Stemleaf and Spotfur are related even if you ignore the Willowpelt retcon, as they’re related through Frostfur. Brackenfur and Thornclaw are brothers, so Stemleaf and Spotfur are first cousins once removed.
Why am I not too surprised that even the first arc had “too many characters” types of problems. As for too many characters in the recent arc having same ancestry, it’s actually not as bad as you make it out to be. As long as a pairing isn’t first cousins or siblings, then the genetic is actually fine for those cats to have kits together. You could easily have accidentally marry someone who you share a great-great grandparents, with. Unless you know each other’s family tree, you might never know that information. If you have children with them, the genetics of being related, is very diluted (every generation after the connected family relationship, you cut your relationship, of shared genes, by 50%. So, for my example of two individuals of being related by their great-great grandparents, they share only, if my math is correct, 6.25% of their genes). In other words, 100% safe to have children with that person.
What confuses me the most is relations with 'relatives' are never talked about, especially in the books and how it impacts the clan, genetically and culturally. Before Firestar the clans barely took in outsiders and existed for many generations. New kits still came... They must have a lot of experience with this. I do understand from a marketing/writing perspective why this is ignored though😂
yeah it's simply inevitable, that's why i disregard when people complain about it because it's just something that happens but the clan as a bunch of intelligent beings should also know about it i think
HC: I think it is disencouraged because it creates a new clan within the clan, a bit like what we're getting with Firestar now. Allows it to still happen but hinders 'outbreaks'/repeat offenders without introducing genetics or somebody asking why everybody is starting to look the same
Seriously the warrior cats genes are so weirddd😭😭?? like: “ah yes what if we made *forgot eho* have kittens with *name* and make them completely different pelt colors!!”
Sunny, I absolutely love everything about this video, but I have to ask one thing: what source is there about Deadfoot dying in the BloodClan battle? I can only remember him appearing in the Ravenpaw manga series, the same one where we're introduced to Crowkit, so I'm curious where this information is coming from. I always assumed there was no confirmation on how Deadfoot died.
It's a bit of a tricky case because there's some contradictory information. In The Darkest Hour, Deadfoot is seeing after the battle "lying very still with blood trickling from a gash on his flank" in a list of the wounded and dead cats of Windclan. The word dead is not used but his and Runningbrook's complete stillness is contrasted against the rest of Windclan who are all wounded but alive. And, in fact, during this summation from Firestar about the status of cats in the clearing, he doesn't declare anyone to be dead with that exact word, despite the fact that we know cats did die and Leopardstar specifically mentions that her clan must mourn their dead. Then, in the next book released: Midnight (where he picks out Crowpaw for the journey), Deadfoot is in Starclan. He doesn't talk about his death but he is definitely dead. In the original information we were provided, all evidence suggests that the intention was for him to be dead at the end of the Bloodclan battle and to pick out Crowpaw from Starclan in the next place we saw him. However, years later, a manga was released (The Heart of a Warrior, the third in the Ravenpaw manga trilogy) that featured a brief scene with a Windclan patrol that had Deadfoot at the front. He's just there to serve as a generic Windclan cat and wish them good luck, not because anyone on the team wanted to add to Deadfoot's story, but putting him in that book after the Bloodclan battle and before Midnight makes it appear as if he died in some other way unknown to us. The Ravenpaw manga timeline also conflicts with Firestar's Quest's timeline and what we're later told of Firestar's lives, however, so with minor elements like Deadfoot rather than Mudclaw being the deputy, I'm inclined to treat this more as a Heavystep situation (a mistaken un-death) rather than a fact that Deadfoot didn't die in the Bloodclan battle.
17:49 MOONPAW SPOTTED!!! why does every cat youtuber seem to draw her face the wrong colours around. ive seen this twice now. (it doesnt actually matter i am the only person that cares this much about moonpaw)
It's because, until recently, there wasn't an official right or wrong direction to her split face. The Warriors Website team created their interpretation of her design, which has orange on the right side of her face, but in the allegiances it just said that half of her face was orange and half was black. However, in the recent chapters released of The Elders' Quest, Moonpaw sees the spirit-like cat behind her (a pale orange tabby) and notes that she looks just like the *left* half of Moonpaw's face. With that knowledge, and unless they contradict it later, this design is actually accurate.
@@Sunnyfalland suddenly i realise why everyone draws her face differently i was assuming the left side of her face thing was from a viewers pov looking at her and not moonpaws own
I don't see why the writing team bothered going back and adding to the first series at all It's like they did extra work just to screw things up. If they had just kept their heads down and left interpretation to the reader, things wouldn't have been so convoluted.
Honestly i like more to think that the cats didnt have relationship as humans and they were just having kits with formidable males, but not have to love them, and poping babies. Makes more sense in the Warriors comunity they care more for mentors than parents
I am so tired of warrior cats inbreeding videos. It doesn't matter. They don't even suffer negative health effects from it in canon and this was always the inevitable outcome of living in a small, closed community.
The point is less in-universe and more how it represents the authors not thinking about the relationships they give cats. They don't intentionally portray the characters as incestuous and the lack of intention becomes the issue
@@Sootielove Well, I don't think they would intentionally want to do that anyway. But honestly, the characters in series almost never acknowledge any familiar relationship beyond direct siblings or parent-child (sometimes grandparent). They don't care to remember who their second cousins are, so why should we? There's also the fact that were I live, a lot of people are probably my family in some way, and I sure as heck don't remember every person or branch I'm told about. It wouldn't be inconceivable for me to end up with a 3rd or 4th cousin I'm not even aware of if I dated within my 20-mile radius. The only valid point I see people talking about with the retconned-in relationships is how it affects the characterizations of cats who watches their parents / children /siblings die and had zero reaction to it.
Maybe I'm missing something, but why is incest in Warriors a problem? I mean, this is a fictional world, you can forget health issues caused by incest. And they never acknowledge the family relations of mates in the books, so the average kid reading this wouldn't notice. Incest isn't something morally bad that isn't portrayed properly in the books, like say manipulating children, and there's nothing harmful for the kids reading these books. No kid is going to read the books, see an uncle and niece or two cousins have kits and go ahead and have an incestuous relationship later in life. This is not like the ableism and sexism in Warriors, when the mentalities presented are actually harmful for the kids who could be influenced into thinking certain ways. So why does it matter whether or not there is incest in Warriors. Also I am not criticising your point, I just don't understand this particular complaint in the fandom.
it would be okay if the cats were just cats because this is normal for animals but the cats in WC represent PEOPLE clearly. they practice religion and society,, they do misogyny and murder and xenophobia. of course the authors arent going to show the negatives of generations of incest but its still pretty offputting to see so much of it. there are main characters who are like 3 times related to themselves meanwhile theres many other background characters with fresh bloodlines with NO children. its weird to see the authors keep pushing for incestous pairings when its not even necessary. it also shows the authors dont really regard the familial/platotic bonds between the characters or the world theyve built. there should be more care between NOT pairing up cousins because the POINT of warrior cats is the interpersonal bonds they share. it harms the immersion because youre supposed to believe the clans care so much about lineage but also engage in...incest...yeah okay.
@@whimmii So what if they represent people? They could be actual humans and my point still stands. This is a fictional world. Humans or not, this world is not real, and the rules of the real world don't apply 1:1. There are plenty of other fictional books that contain incest and people don't make such a big deal about it. And saying that Warriors is for kids isn't an argument. Incest isn't morally wrong, so kids being exposed to it isn't a bad thing especially since the vast majority of them don't even know they are exposed to it because they don't keep track of who's related to who. So why are people giving so much importance to it in a **fictional** world? And incest has nothing to do with authors not caring about relationships. There could be zero incest in the entire series and authors could still treat important relationships superficially. One thing does not depend on the other.
@@TaurielTheElf "incest isn't morally wrong" the vast majority of incestuous relationships in real life are based on abuse and grooming and coercion. the hypothetical "two consenting adults" situation is extremely rare and not realistic and only does harm as abusers will try to convince their victims that the situation is fine and they are "two consenting adults."
@TaurielTheElf the fact that you think incest is morally okay tells me everything i need to know. i cannot convince you of something you have already decided to be true for yourself. i leave you with this: art does not exist in a vaccum. it is a mirror of our reality; this includes even the silliest of kids books.
@timelordricknmorty8179 you get it. i speak from experience because there was unfortunately a conception from incest in my family. it does horrible things to that child's mental state. not to mention the way their own family and society treats them once they find out.
I'm still mad they dropped the "Stormcloud and Cherryfall having feelings for each other" thing in Bramblestar's Storm. They should have been Moonpaw's parents imo
Neither of them are related to firestar/cloudtail, moon is going to be important for the series going forward, and that means she has to be part of that family line. Edit, should have specified that this isn't my personal opinion, this is just the Erin's MO.
I think Night and Sun should’ve, but CherryStorm should’ve been a thing by now
@@RickVSNeganTWD-y1d I disagree, I think it would be nice to have a ThunderClan protagonist that isn't related to Firestar
Also there was the thing in Squirrelflight's Hope where he was the one comforting Sparkpelt after Larksong's death and making sure she ate.
So that's two she-cats he could've gotten with and have the clan actually have at least some outsider blood but nope
@@namikkouI keep forgetting if he is still alive because he is barely even mentioned and that's annoying since he was main character in BS 😢
ThunderClan really needs to take some inspiration from Iceland and make an app that warns you if you're about to get together with your first cousin...
SkyClan had the perfect opportunity to create a fresh family tree, only for Hawkwing and Pebbleshine to get together. They’re first cousins.
😭
That’s not all for current SkyClan! QuailReed and NectarDew are also first cousins! (I hate it here)
Almost everyone in ThunderClan is a descendant of Firestar because everyone else died out or didn’t have kits (Daisy’s descendants not having kits, pre-Firestar cats being mates with Firestar’s descendants). Firestars bloodline has grown almost exponentially and then add in Cloudtail and his descendants and the incest problem becomes really evident.
I just think dustpelt and sandstorm were siblings entirely because dust and sand sound exactly like what you’d name two kits
I want them to be siblings or for dust to have had a crush on Sand so badly 😭 I just want smth between them
@@Ellie-fu6vf I'm not for certain but I think it was implied Dust did have a bit of a crush on Sand; when Sand and Fire started growing closer there were definitely scenes pointing at Dust's jealousy that Sand was spending more time with Fire than with him. This was all before Dust fell in love with Fern.
@@Ellie-fu6vf I always just saw them as besties, which I would personally still count as "smth between them"
I was baffled when they mentioned Bristlefrost’s dad was the son of Lionblaze when her mother is literally Ivypool because there was an ENTIRE ARC that hinged upon the fact that Ivypool/Dovewing were related to Lionblaze/Jayfeather. I’m much more understanding in cases where the average reader of the series wouldn’t know right away (I literally didn’t know who Fernsong’s parents were until that moment) but especially for Firestar’s descendants I would expect the authors to know better
Same, and also I had the horrible realization late in TBC that Bristlefrost, Stemleaf, and Spotfur are all related. I think this is an issue that's so deeply ingrained in the writing there's no way out anymore, I wish cats would interact with their families more often so everyone doesn't just forget who they're related to.
Willowbreeze and Graypool being half Windclan is a little detail I still really like. It gives the two clans history that makes the forest feel more alive than when everything happens in thunderclan all the time
the story with them and their parents in crookedstar's promise hit hard. getting forcefully taken away by a parent either because of divorce or some other legal reason is sadly grounded for some, and it terrified me as a kid, especially how no one did anything when they were taken
do wild cats have incestual relationships? yes. do cats have less genetic consequences from incest? yes.
does that mean incest should be normalize in a book about wild cats? PROBABLY NOT BECAUSE THESE CATS HAVE INTELLIGENCE AND FEELINGS AND SOCIETIES COMPARABLE TO HUMANS.
Not only just comparable- but straight up in series like POT there's drama that hinges on characters' family relationship dynamics. How they perceive fatherhood and motherhood. It's one thing to just acknowledge two characters are related though they're shown to not care for each other like Bluefur/star and her father Stormtail it's whole nother thing to just add something that wasn't there just to fill in blanks. Making two characters who are siblings mates because you weren't paying attention is crazy...
The one relationship retcon I genuinely felt added something was making Tallstar have been "best friends" (read: in love with) Firestar's father. In TPB, Tallstar does seem to make a lot of allowances for Firestar - like the time Fireheart trespasses on WindClan land, and later tells Tallstar he was just putting his clan's needs first, and Tallstar basically says 'oh yeah no problem! Spoken like a true warrior!' He's consistently shown as having a fondness and respect for Firestar. When I read the first arc, it just came across as the main character getting special treatment... so adding the detail that Tallstar has a special reason to have a soft spot for Firestar actually made it make a bit more sense to me!
Y'know, it felt like the writers might have actually checked that the characters actually *had positive interactions in the books that supported another layer of connection*. It boggles my mind that they don't seem to care about doing that with mate and familial relationships that have so much more ability to mess up the family trees and cast weird perspectives on existing relationships...
I did notice that! I always wondered why WindClan excused Firestar so much, but after reading Tallstar's Revenge, it makes far more sense. The book even says that Tallstar would treat Jake's kit like his own!
This is why I wish they kept the old mother rule. In the first arc, Bluestar mentions that Queen only need to declare the father if they want to. Heck we even see in action as Willowpelt didn’t say who her mate was, Fireheart only figured out it was Whitestorm due to how proud he look during the event. Add to the fact 3 of the 4 clan have easy access to twolegs place so easy to widen the gene pool via kit w/ outsider or they themselves are outsiders. The drama come out when the secret out or if the Clan know for sure thier was from outside the Clan ( Featherstorm of ShadowClan wasn’t close to any cat in her Clan and she spent most of her in Twoleg place so the guess correctly her kits were half kittypet) The Lake territory doesn’t help as the Twoleg place is kinda far on RiverClan side and all temporary settlements are unlikely to bring their pet cat on a trip.
It doesn't just help with bloodlines, but it's just a nice piece of world-building that was later dropped, much like 'all apprentices must travel to the Moonstone' which like... was only a think in the very first book.
Friendly reminder that this was never a rule. It's just a head canon fans made up to explain the fact that a lot of kits had unnamed parents.
But I agree that we should go back to it. It's not like the dads usually have meaningful relationships with their kits so why being them up in the first place
@@rorytellingNo?? It’s explicitly mentioned in the first series. The authors just didn’t use it because they wanted more forbidden relationship drama.
I appreciate you emphasing how it makes writers unknowingly pair up related cats. I've seen others phrase it like the writers are making the bad decision to do so when it's absolutely that they just aren't aware which cats are related and how.
12:50 I believe that Ashfoot was actually confirmed to be Crowfeather’s mother in Starlight, when Onestar makes her deputy of WindClan (Crowfeather goes up to congratulate her afterwards). It’s not that big of an issue but her being his mother was established in the main series books.
This is where I'd love to create a dashboard devoted to keeping better track of cats, their ages, relationships, descriptions, and basic personalities. You could do something very fun with keeping track of a cast this size, and I guess I'm surprised such a massive franchise doesn't seem to have something similar
The Erin's lack of a series bible of any kind has created so many issues over the years, quite a few of them compounding on top of each other. The series is in desperate need of a hard reboot
It's honestly why I kinda wish we'd just get like a bit of a timeskip or something, enough time that we can feasibly have cats that have unknown ancestry outside of "Well my mom said I'm Firestar's great great great grandchild" or someone's a Tigerclone but no one remembers who Tigerclaw even was anymore. Just push the genetic reset button.
Exactly, we need a completely clean slate where all the characters are just spawned into existence and assumed to not be related to each other unless it's explicitly mentioned. No retconning "X's parents are actually Y and Z (which makes them the third cousin once removed of A and B)" nonsense. Imagine how much longer the inbreeding could have been held off if all the adults in Into the Wild were treated as if they were unrelated to each other!
Honestly I really want this. The “my great great great grandad” was this guy thing already sounds interesting
Goldenflower: Tigerclaw, look! Your Kits!
Tigerclaw: What? Uh, don't care. *So, I'm gonna lead the roges to the camp* ...
What were the Erin's thinking by making sandstorm the daughter of brindleface, making an uncomfortable situation even more awkward, like sheesh, glad they changed it at least.
Fr,it confused me even more bc MULTIPLE times its referenced that Ashfur,Ferncloud and their 2 off screen-death-sibblings as her FIRST litter
I like some of the retcons, like whitestorm being the nephew of bluestar, I found it sweet and it added an extra layer to their relationship(although it ruined some fans shipping between them😅).
I always think of Sandstorm, Dustpelt, and Ravenpaw as all being siblings. At least Sandstorm and Dustpelt. Sandstorm, Dustpelt, and Ravenpaw where all apprentices together, Ravenpaw's reaction to seeing Sandstorm as a warrior for the first time was cute, and it's confirmed that they all went to the Moonstone together.
A big reason in my warriors-inspired story cats are allowed to mate outside and between the Colonies. They just can't have strong relationships with those cats unless they join the Colony too. It also means I can spawn in as many kits as I want without needing to justify one of the parents, keeping things cleaner!
I just tend to add outsiders here in there and keep my family trees less confusing as possible lol I also keep them small not to make it so complicated.
My least favourite retcon is making Leopardfoot into Redtail, Spottedleaf, and Willowpelt's sibling. It makes Tigerstar Redtails nephew, despite the fact that Redtail is younger and in Redtails Debt, the way Redtail interacts with Tigerstar has weirdly romantic vibes??? Hes all impressed and practically swooning over Tiger and is like "i owe you my life" and it gives VERY gay vibes.
I used to be a hardcore Tiger/Red shipper when I was younger and I still am to some extent, but every time i talk about it i have to preface it that "in my au where they have feelings for eachother Leopardfoot is NOT Redtails sister" for obvious reasons. I remember being a preteen and upon learning they were related being genuinely mortified.
The Erins REALLY need a series bible, or to just do a reboot already!
I can understand it, as the 1st book was suppose to be the only book, and then the 1st arc was suppose to be the only arc, and then the first half of the 2nd arc was suppose to be the only new/extra books. But yeah, the retcons still shows/affects the universe as a whole in a bit dimmer light.
9:45 I think there’s a key difference though. Cinder, Bracken, Thorn, and Bright aren’t seen in the nursery. They just materialize as apps. Lion was already dead. So that doesn’t mess with my idea of Lionheart. However even before they were even named by the authors Brindleface’s kits are important, as they’re being nursed alongside Fireheart’s nephew, Cloudkit. No father is shone, you’d prolly assume it was a scamp like Darkstripe, maybe a passing loner. But Whitestorm? No. Not Whitestorm. It completely messes with his prior characterization. When Willowpelt announces her pregnancy, Whitestorm looks on with pride, but none of that happens with his “children” Ferncloud and Ashfur.
Thanks for reading my submission.
I hope to be at UIUC studying Warrior Catology this December
What does UIUC mean in this context? University of...?
@@fairycat23University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
Age issues in Warriors are the worst! Morningflower is a super-old elder when her littermates are warriors, Ratscar being an elder in AVoS when Snowbird is still a strong warrior in modern ShadowClan, IVYTAIL OF SHADOWCLAN...
Finally! Someone mentions just how frickin inbred these cats are! It just makes the cat's relationships so weird!
I just choose to ignore most of these retcons. I don't have time to think about who's related to who when the Erins spawn a new relationship.
Saaaaaaame, I only stick with what the books told us. Thinking about who is related to who is such a head-ache, I just criticize the whole thing as a whole and leave it as it is.
Hopefully the graphic novels could fix the issue of supposedly-related characters never interacting.
I have a friend who used to read warrior cats and while I was kind of having the idea of writing an AU I thought about fixing the family tree. I was told good luck. It’s a mess.
Deadfoot didn't die in the BloodClan battle, he appears (along with Crowkit) in the Ravenpaw mangas which take place after Firestars Quest. Because of this I just say that Mudclaw being listed as the deputy in that book is an error
Acctuly he dies in the same battle as Gorsepaw in The Darkest Hour,mangas are written by somebody else and this a mistake in the manga rather then another book
@nollaigburke7982 If I remember correctly, he was just shown to be badly injured, not dead. He probably pulled through and recovered
@Aggnolia the book says "Deadfoot,the WindClan deputy,was lying very still with blood trickling down his flank" and I believe in another book its directly said that he died in a battle with ShadowClan and RiverClan,while it doesn't say he died here its very heavily implied
Moonpaw is her own cousin lmaoo 💀💀💀 /s
And I feel like some of these retcons are so pointless. Did we need a parent for Graystripe and Darkstripe? No.. not really. A parent for Ravenpaw, Dustpaw? No. Heck, they didn’t give Sandstorm any parents and that’s fine! I can understand needing to give some cats parents for prequel books, but I feel like other retcons, like the parents of young 1st arc cats to be unneeded and it only made things more messy and complimented when it didn’t need to be?
Edit: Or they could’ve just made up more random cats and just say they died or something-
Edit 2: or just add more useless and random background cats so cats like Spottedleaf, Redtail, and Leopardfoot aren’t siblings.
Edit: and on the point of Bristlefrost not interacting with her siblings and parents, it frustrates me too lol. I feel like I’d care a lot more if she and Fernsong or Ivypool or her siblings had a lot more interactions. Same for pretty much any other recent protagonist but Frostpaw and Sunbeam, kinda.
I always considered Firestar's Quest as a problem in the timeline. The entire New Prophecy series was completed first. The ages of all the kits and apprentices and where they are in their training makes more sense if there is no reconned extra year.
I was waiting the entire video for you to mention Dustpelt being Ferncloud's uncle. Brindleface, Frostfur, Dustpelt, and Ravenpaw being siblings is the absolute worst familial retcon imo
Edit: I also remembered that Brindleface and Frostfur being sisters makes Whitewing and Birchfall second cousins. And Lionheart being Frostfur's mate and Goldenflower's brother means Dovewing and Tigerheart are like second cousins once removed or something. And Ivypool is also Fernsong's second cousin. And Thriftear and Bayshine are from their family
The other issue here is that, in real life, these cats wouldn’t have an issue. While there can be genetic defects to inbreeding, cats do not have a problem socially with incest. But humans do, and humans are the ones writing and reading this, so clearly there has to be something done about it.
Wait, how are Jayfeather and Lionblaze related to Goldenflower? Brambleclaw isn't their biological father, so the only genetic tangle they have is being Firestar's grandsons through Leafpool.
So, I looked at the Family Tree Sunny linked in the description and if I understand it correctly, then (according to all the retcons) the Three are at least distantly related to Brambleclaw, through Tigerclaw, whose Mother Leopardfoot was Redtails sister, who got retconned to be Sandstorms father and therefore Leafpools and Squirrelflights grandfather.
So that means (I think) that Leafpool (and also Squirrelflight) and Brambleclaw would be 2nd Cousins and the Three would be Brambleclaws 2nd Cousins once removed.
I have no clue if that means they would be technically related to Goldenflower or not.
Edit:
However, Lionblazes children with Cinderheart WOULD be (more) directly related to Goldenflower, since Cinderheart is Brackenfurs daughter, who is Lionhearts son, who is Goldenflowers brother. So Cinderheart is Goldenflowers great-niece (if that's what it's called.)
Cinderheart is actually ALSO related to Redtail, since her Grandmother would be Willowpelt, who is Redtails sister.
Turns out, giving Sandstorm a father and then giving that father 4 siblings, caused more of a genetic tangle for their children than Firestar bringing his nephew to the clans. xD
They REALLY need to hire editors.
In wolf packs. Everyone who isn't the leader is the leader's offspring of varying ages. And if anyone wants to have their own mate, they have to leave and form their own packs.
I really like this system and I wish these Wolf stories could remember that at least :/ Wolves aren't just "badass" groups, they are literal family and I usually get bothered when people create large wolf packs in fantasy where none of them are related + the Alpha/beta/sigma/omega system because THAT'S NOT how wolves work. It's kind of sad how romantized and dumb-folded these creatures were made in media.
Mousefur and Runningwind also works because NEITHER OF THEM HAD KITS unless you count Runningwind's off screen non-canon kits, which I don't. So deciding they were siblings the whole time doesn't make anyone in modern ThunderClan inbred in 3 different ways
Gosh I hate retcon relationships so much- In my rewrite of Warrior Cats me and my co-writer decided to make Rosetail and Thrushpelt Sandstorm's parents (Although they are said "half-sibilings" in the family tree, they never interacted as such :/) because Thrushpelt does have a pelt similiar to Sandstorm's, and we wanted to expand Rosetail's potential beyond being Bluestar's friend in canon. We also took the opportunity for Sandstorm to have a mother/daughter bond with her to make feel Sand more of her own character, and we made Rosetail's death more impactful by killing her in The Raging Storm and Sandstorm witnissing it.
It's not like we shipp Rosetail x Thrushpelt or anything like that, we REALLY DON'T, we just wanted to do something that made sense and could add more to the story without being dramatically relevent but making more impact. We still wonder if making them Sandstorm's parents might be called problematic or not, so that's why I am putting it on the room here- But honestly, I really can't count retconned relationships as canon because they aren't mentioned in the books ONCE. You wouldn't even know they exist if you never had access to the site. To me, just telling somewhere else instead of showing certain fact in your story counts as a really bad writing and should never be put into serious consideration :/.
When trying to figure out my own OC family tree I realized just how difficult it was. I've gotten most of it down but I still have a ways to go before it's done
This is just a huge problem with the setting. Because cats can have multiple litter of kits in a very short time, things can get jumbled no matter what.
My Warrior Cats roleplay server has a very similar problem to the canon books (or, *had*, I've since compiled a family tree to stop it from happening.)
One of the things that kept happening, and will keep happening to us, is prominent characters have kits and retain their prominence. More people want to play their descendants, or they switch mates and the players want the new couple to have kits. We had a leader have something like 16 kits between 3 mates. My own character, Eagleblaze, and his mate had 11 over their time.
It also creates strange dynamics.
My character Yarrowstar had kits with his new mate, Cherryclaw. And we almost had his daughter with his first mate in the nursery with kits at the same time.
Eagleblaze, again, is having kits with his mate while two of his own daughters have kits in the nursery.
These cats multiply like cats. Which can be a problem sometimes
If Willowpelt is Graystripe’s mother that means that Spotfur and Stemleaf are in a way related
Because Spotfur is the daughter of Cinderheart which is the daughter of Sorreltail, which is the daughter of Willowpelt, and Stemleaf is the son of Blossomfall, which is the daughter of Graystripe
a lot of the current issues in the family tree can be blamed entirely on lionblaze and cinderheart. i dont think even snowbird or ferncloud created this many issues with their kids
@@Huijiijjjjjjjihh
Out of Ferncloud’s kits, only Spiderleg and Birchfall had kits (and only Birchfall’s kits had kits, both of Spiderleg’s are dead). So she only has direct descendants through Ivypool and Dovewing (who are luckily in different Clans now).
Meanwhile out of the CinderLion kits, Sorrelstripe, Fernsong, and Spotfur had kits. The former two already have grandkits (with Thriftear and Bayshine having Moonpaw despite being first cousins).
Snowbird has the most kits out of any cat in the series, but she only has grandkits through Berryheart and Yarrowleaf (with four still alive and living in ShadowClan).
So yeah, CinderLion are definitely a reason for why the tree is so tangled. It doesn’t help that Cinderheart is related to Frostfur through her father though, as it makes her related to both Brightheart and Thornclaw’s descendants (with two of her kits becoming mates with two of those descendants).
Technically Stemleaf and Spotfur are related even if you ignore the Willowpelt retcon, as they’re related through Frostfur. Brackenfur and Thornclaw are brothers, so Stemleaf and Spotfur are first cousins once removed.
Why am I not too surprised that even the first arc had “too many characters” types of problems.
As for too many characters in the recent arc having same ancestry, it’s actually not as bad as you make it out to be. As long as a pairing isn’t first cousins or siblings, then the genetic is actually fine for those cats to have kits together.
You could easily have accidentally marry someone who you share a great-great grandparents, with. Unless you know each other’s family tree, you might never know that information. If you have children with them, the genetics of being related, is very diluted (every generation after the connected family relationship, you cut your relationship, of shared genes, by 50%. So, for my example of two individuals of being related by their great-great grandparents, they share only, if my math is correct, 6.25% of their genes). In other words, 100% safe to have children with that person.
Another sunny video, another W🫡
❤❤❤😂😂🎉🎉
EARLYYYY 🎶🎵🎵🎶🎶I'll watch this later while I draw :)
🧙🏻🧙🏻🥺🥺👻♍️
@@sandyaraujo5222 👾👾😑😑🦅♋
What confuses me the most is relations with 'relatives' are never talked about, especially in the books and how it impacts the clan, genetically and culturally. Before Firestar the clans barely took in outsiders and existed for many generations. New kits still came... They must have a lot of experience with this. I do understand from a marketing/writing perspective why this is ignored though😂
yeah it's simply inevitable, that's why i disregard when people complain about it because it's just something that happens but the clan as a bunch of intelligent beings should also know about it i think
HC: I think it is disencouraged because it creates a new clan within the clan, a bit like what we're getting with Firestar now.
Allows it to still happen but hinders 'outbreaks'/repeat offenders without introducing genetics or somebody asking why everybody is starting to look the same
Seriously the warrior cats genes are so weirddd😭😭??
like:
“ah yes what if we made *forgot eho* have kittens with *name* and make them completely different pelt colors!!”
Gonna watch this rn :D
Sunny, I absolutely love everything about this video, but I have to ask one thing: what source is there about Deadfoot dying in the BloodClan battle? I can only remember him appearing in the Ravenpaw manga series, the same one where we're introduced to Crowkit, so I'm curious where this information is coming from. I always assumed there was no confirmation on how Deadfoot died.
It's a bit of a tricky case because there's some contradictory information.
In The Darkest Hour, Deadfoot is seeing after the battle "lying very still with blood trickling from a gash on his flank" in a list of the wounded and dead cats of Windclan. The word dead is not used but his and Runningbrook's complete stillness is contrasted against the rest of Windclan who are all wounded but alive. And, in fact, during this summation from Firestar about the status of cats in the clearing, he doesn't declare anyone to be dead with that exact word, despite the fact that we know cats did die and Leopardstar specifically mentions that her clan must mourn their dead. Then, in the next book released: Midnight (where he picks out Crowpaw for the journey), Deadfoot is in Starclan. He doesn't talk about his death but he is definitely dead.
In the original information we were provided, all evidence suggests that the intention was for him to be dead at the end of the Bloodclan battle and to pick out Crowpaw from Starclan in the next place we saw him.
However, years later, a manga was released (The Heart of a Warrior, the third in the Ravenpaw manga trilogy) that featured a brief scene with a Windclan patrol that had Deadfoot at the front. He's just there to serve as a generic Windclan cat and wish them good luck, not because anyone on the team wanted to add to Deadfoot's story, but putting him in that book after the Bloodclan battle and before Midnight makes it appear as if he died in some other way unknown to us.
The Ravenpaw manga timeline also conflicts with Firestar's Quest's timeline and what we're later told of Firestar's lives, however, so with minor elements like Deadfoot rather than Mudclaw being the deputy, I'm inclined to treat this more as a Heavystep situation (a mistaken un-death) rather than a fact that Deadfoot didn't die in the Bloodclan battle.
This is so true D:
Ey! Something to distract me for 20 minutes! Thank you! ^_^
I usually call these useless random statements wiki bait since its obvious why they do them
😊😊😊😊
17:49 MOONPAW SPOTTED!!! why does every cat youtuber seem to draw her face the wrong colours around. ive seen this twice now. (it doesnt actually matter i am the only person that cares this much about moonpaw)
It's because, until recently, there wasn't an official right or wrong direction to her split face. The Warriors Website team created their interpretation of her design, which has orange on the right side of her face, but in the allegiances it just said that half of her face was orange and half was black.
However, in the recent chapters released of The Elders' Quest, Moonpaw sees the spirit-like cat behind her (a pale orange tabby) and notes that she looks just like the *left* half of Moonpaw's face. With that knowledge, and unless they contradict it later, this design is actually accurate.
@@Sunnyfalland suddenly i realise why everyone draws her face differently
i was assuming the left side of her face thing was from a viewers pov looking at her and not moonpaws own
I don't see why the writing team bothered going back and adding to the first series at all
It's like they did extra work just to screw things up. If they had just kept their heads down and left interpretation to the reader, things wouldn't have been so convoluted.
Obligatory Dueling Banjos reference.
Honestly i like more to think that the cats didnt have relationship as humans and they were just having kits with formidable males, but not have to love them, and poping babies.
Makes more sense in the Warriors comunity they care more for mentors than parents
Elloo hehehe
no wonder moonpaw's a chimera 😰
I am so tired of warrior cats inbreeding videos. It doesn't matter. They don't even suffer negative health effects from it in canon and this was always the inevitable outcome of living in a small, closed community.
The point is less in-universe and more how it represents the authors not thinking about the relationships they give cats. They don't intentionally portray the characters as incestuous and the lack of intention becomes the issue
@@Sootielove Well, I don't think they would intentionally want to do that anyway. But honestly, the characters in series almost never acknowledge any familiar relationship beyond direct siblings or parent-child (sometimes grandparent). They don't care to remember who their second cousins are, so why should we?
There's also the fact that were I live, a lot of people are probably my family in some way, and I sure as heck don't remember every person or branch I'm told about. It wouldn't be inconceivable for me to end up with a 3rd or 4th cousin I'm not even aware of if I dated within my 20-mile radius.
The only valid point I see people talking about with the retconned-in relationships is how it affects the characterizations of cats who watches their parents / children /siblings die and had zero reaction to it.
Maybe I'm missing something, but why is incest in Warriors a problem? I mean, this is a fictional world, you can forget health issues caused by incest. And they never acknowledge the family relations of mates in the books, so the average kid reading this wouldn't notice. Incest isn't something morally bad that isn't portrayed properly in the books, like say manipulating children, and there's nothing harmful for the kids reading these books. No kid is going to read the books, see an uncle and niece or two cousins have kits and go ahead and have an incestuous relationship later in life. This is not like the ableism and sexism in Warriors, when the mentalities presented are actually harmful for the kids who could be influenced into thinking certain ways. So why does it matter whether or not there is incest in Warriors.
Also I am not criticising your point, I just don't understand this particular complaint in the fandom.
it would be okay if the cats were just cats because this is normal for animals but the cats in WC represent PEOPLE clearly. they practice religion and society,, they do misogyny and murder and xenophobia.
of course the authors arent going to show the negatives of generations of incest but its still pretty offputting to see so much of it. there are main characters who are like 3 times related to themselves meanwhile theres many other background characters with fresh bloodlines with NO children. its weird to see the authors keep pushing for incestous pairings when its not even necessary.
it also shows the authors dont really regard the familial/platotic bonds between the characters or the world theyve built. there should be more care between NOT pairing up cousins because the POINT of warrior cats is the interpersonal bonds they share. it harms the immersion because youre supposed to believe the clans care so much about lineage but also engage in...incest...yeah okay.
@@whimmii So what if they represent people? They could be actual humans and my point still stands. This is a fictional world. Humans or not, this world is not real, and the rules of the real world don't apply 1:1. There are plenty of other fictional books that contain incest and people don't make such a big deal about it. And saying that Warriors is for kids isn't an argument. Incest isn't morally wrong, so kids being exposed to it isn't a bad thing especially since the vast majority of them don't even know they are exposed to it because they don't keep track of who's related to who. So why are people giving so much importance to it in a **fictional** world?
And incest has nothing to do with authors not caring about relationships. There could be zero incest in the entire series and authors could still treat important relationships superficially. One thing does not depend on the other.
@@TaurielTheElf "incest isn't morally wrong" the vast majority of incestuous relationships in real life are based on abuse and grooming and coercion. the hypothetical "two consenting adults" situation is extremely rare and not realistic and only does harm as abusers will try to convince their victims that the situation is fine and they are "two consenting adults."
@TaurielTheElf the fact that you think incest is morally okay tells me everything i need to know. i cannot convince you of something you have already decided to be true for yourself.
i leave you with this: art does not exist in a vaccum. it is a mirror of our reality; this includes even the silliest of kids books.
@timelordricknmorty8179 you get it. i speak from experience because there was unfortunately a conception from incest in my family. it does horrible things to that child's mental state.
not to mention the way their own family and society treats them once they find out.
First! (Pin? Not forcing!)