How to Play ANY Song in ANY Key

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  • Опубликовано: 28 май 2024
  • Peter Martin demonstrates how to play Stella by Starlight (or any tune) in ANY key - without transposing. Welcome to the Key of Music! 🎶
    Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today → osjazz.link/trial
    🎶 Free transcription and Living Notation available exclusively for OpenStudio Pro members: openstudiojazz.link/pro-yt
    00:00 Intro
    1:07 The how?
    1:27 Know thy melody & root movement
    4:05 Root starting point
    5:15 Learn the 2-5's
    7:08 Move to a new key
    8:57 Break it down by segments
    9:42 Add the shells
    10:48 Strange high singing
    11:54 Key of B
  • ВидеоклипыВидеоклипы

Комментарии • 232

  • @pickinstone
    @pickinstone Год назад +216

    That's some excellent ear training and tune learning advice. I picked that up from two teachers in the past as well, but they expanded upon the concept a little. Sing the bass, play the melody. Sing the melody, play the bass. Sing the 3rds of the harmony, play the melody. Sing the melody, play the 3rds. Then you play the chords and sing the extensions. Singers have A LOT to share with instrumentalists. If you can hear it, you can own it. If you can sing it, you can song it. Still want to hear how Dianne Reeves approaches all of this as a master musician. And ya gotta get Alexa Tarantino on permanent staff! She talks about this type of stuff all the time on her RUclipss :)

    • @BodilessVoice
      @BodilessVoice Год назад +6

      Best comment here!

    • @pickinstone
      @pickinstone Год назад +22

      @@BodilessVoice Not my idea, really is a concept that my teachers took from Ray Brown. I'm also really into the Contextual Ear Training concept that Charlie Banacos pioneered--I learned it from Bruce Arnold. Bottom line is that ear training shouldn't be some interval labeling parlor trick--ear training should be integrated into everything you practice on and away from your instrument.

    • @EthanBrownkeys
      @EthanBrownkeys Год назад +3

      You are spot on, pickinstone. I've always been mainly an ear player, and people will often comment in amazement "How do you just sit down and play a song without music?" And I tell them that it's just like humming a tune--everyone can do that!--except I'm just humming it on the keyboard with my fingers. I recently came across Peter Martin and his videos. What an amazing teacher! I want to improve my jazz playing and his videos are marvelous. His teaching talents are as great as his musical ones.

    • @pickinstone
      @pickinstone Год назад +3

      @@EthanBrownkeys I mean, you can use sheet music and theory--but you funnel all that info through the conduit of ya ears. Studying tritones--sing the bass movement and the 3rds and 7ths as you study them. Studying a new tune, sing the melody while playing the bass movement. Use it all if you can. My argument is that music is NOT a mind game. Music is sound--so you have to approach it all through that sense as well.

    • @adrianbrome6652
      @adrianbrome6652 Год назад

      Interesting Ear Training concept. Sounds practical & comprehensive. Makes sense re: Ear Training. Thank you for sharing, Pickinstone.

  • @GastonSimonMusic
    @GastonSimonMusic Год назад +11

    This video is exactly why this is the best jazz education channel on youtube hands down

  • @SimpsonSound
    @SimpsonSound Год назад +62

    This method most definitely works & should be a permanent part of learning & practicing tunes. If you don’t know the melody, you can’t play the song. You’ll only be “doodlin’” around. To add to this, you must know your major & minor scales like the back of your hand. If you don’t, you’d better get on it. Also, really know the numbers (ii-v-i-iii-vi-ii-v-etc…). When you know the numbers, scale degree’s, you won’t think about any key. This will turn the “scale practice” into technique practice so your fingers won’t feel foreign to the “key” that you’re playing in.
    Great lesson, Peter.👊🏾👊🏾

    • @thomascordery7951
      @thomascordery7951 Год назад +7

      I totally agree with "if you don't know the melody ..." After all that IS the song.
      As a bass player, one very practical reason to know the melody is to avoid those notes, because a melody is weakened on any note that the bass player doubles. Not that the bass can never touch the melody, but certainly any tune-defining note ought to be left to others. I've tried to follow that advice ever since I was taught it and have always found it holds up.

    • @shahankevin
      @shahankevin Год назад +1

      I’ve read so many of these comments and all I’m learning is that I have sooooooo much to learn. Because I don’t understand a single word 😅 but it’s so goddamn fascinating.
      Do you have any recommendations on how someone might go about learning in 2022? Probably online/free. If you’ve got any advice, I’m so eager to learn 😭

    • @louiscombe359
      @louiscombe359 8 месяцев назад +1

      Know your major scales really well ( i highly recommend the Adam Maness video "the major scale in 8 ways" for this), and then everything will look easier in the future

  • @terrytippie6101
    @terrytippie6101 Год назад +46

    This corresponds to how I learned to play "in the keys", with one exception: You gotta Sing the bass line. To summarize my piano teacher. Learn to relate to the TWO fundamental melodies of a tune as melodies. Harmonic analysis is fine and you need to be able to do it, but avoid the pitfall of over-computation because it leads to consciously directed, unemotional playing.
    Also, couple of minor bits a bit on practice method: 1) Don't walk into the gym the first day and struggle with 400 lbs on the bench: Start with nursery rhymes and Christmas tunes. 2) If you play a tune in all 12-keys, you'll see the tune; If you play 30 tunes in one key, you'll see the key. Do some of both.

    • @peterharrison5833
      @peterharrison5833 Год назад

      Good advice.

    • @adrianbrome6652
      @adrianbrome6652 Год назад

      Good point. I don't ever wish to become emotionally-disconnected when playing ANY instrument.

  • @ChuloDavidcito
    @ChuloDavidcito Год назад +9

    This is gold. I can transpose, but I never thought of just doing just the bass and melody first, getting the basic architecture.

  • @peterharrison5833
    @peterharrison5833 Год назад +6

    Peter, thanks for posting this. Your voicings are beautiful.
    Years ago, I read a quote that said, "I learned the blues, I Got Rhythm, and Cherokee in all 12 keys and I knew I was ready." The author? Charlie Parker.

  • @guscox9651
    @guscox9651 Месяц назад +1

    i have NEVER in my entire, long, far far too-long time on youtube seen a video that is so EXACTLY spot on. i have taken the orange pill ladies and gentleman. i am orange pilled. there is no going back. THE KEY OF MUSIC BABY!!! YEAH!

  • @alexkerby1227
    @alexkerby1227 Год назад +12

    Yeah, thinking of scale degrees instead of notes is a game changer. That really helped me when I started learning harmonica, the Richter one. A guitar and piano player myself, remembering notes on harp seemed impossible. Just think about any key harp as C harp and any melody in terms of scale degrees(or you can call the degrees as you'd call them in the key of C) and you get rid of a great deal of calculation.
    Just keep this tricks to yourself when playing with the band:)

    • @calebbean1384
      @calebbean1384 Год назад

      Playing guitar makes you think in terms of numbers and is much more conveniently chromatic than piano , a bit of advantage there

  • @DrSid42
    @DrSid42 5 месяцев назад +1

    I just can't. It's like one of the best music video of all time. And this channel has hundreds of them.

  • @greendeane1
    @greendeane1 Год назад +12

    You mentioned working with vocalists who might sing in a totally different key than a composition usually is in. I was a military musician. One time we had to play the Star Bangle Banner for an event. Some Navy lieutenant was going to sing it. The banner, a rather familiar piece if you're in the military, is commonly played in one of three different keys, Bb (the official military version, Ab, the Sousa version and G the orchestral version. The schedule called for a spot light on the singer and the hall dark, so the director was conducting with cigarette, so we could see it no lights on stands. We played the last four bars in Ab for an intro, and the lieutenant came in in some ungawdly key around E. We squeaked and squawked for a couple of measures and coalesced in F, dragging the poor singer with us.. Not surprisingly years later the conductor was about to drop the baton on the banner in Bb when the singer turned around as said he sang it in F, which we all then played by ear as there was no music.

    • @DanielBarberMusic
      @DanielBarberMusic Год назад +5

      Home of the brave!! 😂

    • @thomascordery7951
      @thomascordery7951 Год назад +2

      Well, let me just say, thank you once again for your service, greendeane!!

    • @BobMazzo
      @BobMazzo Год назад

      We just had the President's Own perform here in North Jersey. I respect you guys and gals.

    • @stephanieinnocentia1739
      @stephanieinnocentia1739 Год назад

      Had i been there I would've helped!

  • @paolofuriomarasso4226
    @paolofuriomarasso4226 Год назад +13

    One of most important lesson for those who want to become a working bass player! Thank you Peter (and Ray!)

  • @davidrosen9711
    @davidrosen9711 Год назад +25

    As a subscriber and student of open studio this lesson you have outlined here is just fantastic- thank you Peter and Adam, Chris

  • @orion98mc92
    @orion98mc92 Год назад +2

    I am a guitarist, but, I must say ... what a slap on my face ... thanks indeed! I'll try this on my guitar as well!

  • @Rhekon
    @Rhekon Год назад +16

    Been doing this with Stella, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa and a few other standards just as a fun thing to do. Those are pretty easy for me cuz I've been doing it for a long time. But it's also easy to forget Stella's melody starts on the tonic, and the first chord is a tritone away 😅. It's pretty challenging to do this for me for Someday My Prince Will Come in a key like B Major [cuz I rarely play in that key.]

    • @jeffreydelisle7337
      @jeffreydelisle7337 Год назад

      Lol, I chose someday my prince for my first song to learn this method as I had already memorized it in B flat. I think I understand Pater but by gosh I am light years away fro sounding like him. Good luck to us both.

  • @kbstabs5982
    @kbstabs5982 Год назад +5

    That was great, Peter. Where were you when I really needed you? Oh yes, not born yet when I had already been playing keys (first classical and then rock and blues) in decent bands for some 7 years. Now in later life, still playing but almost always transposing as required either by re-writing my charts or using that magic transpose switch on electronic keyboards., especially when it comes to the jazz standards. I have often resolved to learn songs in any key but this video has now finally arrived. Never too late in life to try new things.

  • @BennettYancey
    @BennettYancey 4 месяца назад +1

    Very good stuff! I play for a church in which there’s always a great chance that the choir will sing a song that’s in a key different from the original. I’m firmly against transposing, so knowing how to play in every key is so essential for me.

  • @Riedel777
    @Riedel777 9 месяцев назад +1

    Great method! For me, playing Bachs 15 Inventionen in all keys made my musical hearing and understanding of intervalls etc. much better and clearer to play standards in all keys.

  • @stacey_1111rh
    @stacey_1111rh Год назад +4

    I discovered this through the guitar years ago but have never had anyone break it down in such a good way like this before. Excellent video. Subed. Best wishes!

  • @ARG7822
    @ARG7822 Год назад +3

    Peter’s chords are 🔥

  • @kenzeller6518
    @kenzeller6518 Год назад +1

    A more organic approach to playing in keys - for those who desire freedom from thought before sound, THIS is The Way. Thank you, Peter and Open Studio for all this great help!

  • @3Foxicurl
    @3Foxicurl Год назад +3

    I just tried improvising on it and if starting from Em, A7 etc and you arrive at the end at Ebmaj7 Abmaj7, I treated Abmaj7 as the 2b of G major, used Ab in first reversal, Cmin6b, treat that as a napolitaine and go to D7/C to go back to the Em!

  • @jazznutz
    @jazznutz Год назад +3

    These guys at Open Studio are very high level! Great lesson

  • @Adeno
    @Adeno Год назад +8

    This is awesome! This is how I've always done it as a kid growing up in a place where I didn't have access to sheet music. I just kept listening to songs and tried to figure them on my own until somehow it got easier and easier! It's always fun even if I don't always get them right. I haven't played the piano in a year, but you inspired me to clean up my place, remove the boxes on top of my piano, and play again. I'll do it later haha!😃

  • @jaijeffcom
    @jaijeffcom 4 месяца назад

    Is this the best lesson I've seen on learning a tune? Like ever? Man. It doesn't hurt that "Stella" is my favorite tune there is. I just played the opening phrase in 12 keys without even breaking a sweat. Brilliant. I expect it to get harder tomorrow when I work on more of it, but that is enough instant gratification to prove Peter's point for me. Yay.

    • @jaijeffcom
      @jaijeffcom 4 месяца назад

      Got through the whole tune. Playing it in every key.
      Only 700 tunes to go!
      (Or anyway, a dozen with the most common changes, for starters. Repeat forever, or until my last breath, whichever comes first.)

  • @anthonywritesfantasy
    @anthonywritesfantasy Год назад +4

    Man I love hearing you play. Such a good tone, so expressive.

  • @CWBella
    @CWBella Год назад +4

    OMG, what a fabulous lesson, Peter! Really clear, valuable suggestions on how to approach playing songs in different keys, and I especially appreciate you referencing Ellis Marsalis. The way the notation was presented was also very helpful, along with showing the notes on the graphic keyboard as you were playing. Your enthusiasm is contagious!

  • @JoshWalshMusic
    @JoshWalshMusic Год назад +3

    Man, your new studio looks so good! Congrats guys.

  • @tzahim441
    @tzahim441 Год назад +3

    Man!! Good stuff!! The actual hearing of the bass movement with the melody in other keys really makes the difference!
    Thank you!

  • @bluch251
    @bluch251 Год назад +3

    Absolute genius Peter, I Thank You once again for these great gems we sometimes fail to think about.

  • @fsffs2413
    @fsffs2413 2 месяца назад

    The key of music! Now, Sir, you're the first person to explain what I've always been doing unconsciously when accompanying. Less colorful though, especially in not so common keys but still made it work. Your hints made me discover weak points on which I'm going to concentrate. Many thanks

  • @johnclaytonjr
    @johnclaytonjr Год назад +3

    Love this, Brother Peter! You just reiterated exactly what I share with my students. I'll be passing this on to them. Oh--and Ray Brown taught me what he gave you when I was 16 years old. Anyway, awesome video. and very helpful! Keep swinging!!!!

  • @MrJellyton
    @MrJellyton Год назад +1

    There's a video of Barry Harris talking about this tune and he touches on this same thing. I recall Peter talking about this on You'll Hear It also.

  • @adrianbrome6652
    @adrianbrome6652 Год назад

    Peter, I ❤❤❤the Energy & EXCITEment you EXUDE when you talk Music. It's CONTAGIOUS.😊

  • @fernandoreina6201
    @fernandoreina6201 Год назад +4

    Maestro ,gracias , este tutorial me abrió los ojos y el entendimiento, comprendí muchas cosas que siempre había querido aprender. Fabuloso . Nunca olvidare este momento de luz.

  • @blueginger3654
    @blueginger3654 Год назад +1

    So sooo good! Training the ear through Hearing the keys creates connectivity and depth to stay harmonically in touch in the Key of Music. Thank you!!!

  • @blakeangelos
    @blakeangelos Год назад +3

    This is a GREAT video. Such a simple and direct way to show this with melody leading the way. 👏🏻

  • @timbruer7318
    @timbruer7318 Год назад +1

    Very good stuff Peter, thank you.

  • @tedpowers2045
    @tedpowers2045 Год назад +2

    I am a saxophone, harmonica player. I took guitar lessons from a master for like three years. Can play rudimentary piano. I love your channel. The theory applies to all instruments (duh) and I am seriously considering working on the keys again. Thanks for the info and inspiration

  • @richard135b7
    @richard135b7 Год назад +1

    Awesome content. The best approach to ear training I have found. Thank you!

  • @olekiilerich4191
    @olekiilerich4191 Год назад

    Thank you for a very clear explanation of this concept. I immidiately tried it out with just the melody and it worked surprisingly well.

  • @elliottek5049
    @elliottek5049 Год назад

    Thanks. You got me motivated (and smiling).

  • @christiandalin7260
    @christiandalin7260 Год назад

    I absolutely love your channel!

  • @damasovergara7198
    @damasovergara7198 Год назад

    Beautiful Peter!! Thanks a lot!

  • @scottjoyce100
    @scottjoyce100 Год назад +1

    Great lesson. Thank you!

  • @4gcole
    @4gcole Год назад +1

    Love it Peter!

  • @SiggeSvahn
    @SiggeSvahn Год назад +1

    I just go here to enjoy the wonderful chops of this guy.

  • @Muzikman127
    @Muzikman127 Год назад

    Man the teachers on this channel really love this stuff, it's great

  • @smoses2997
    @smoses2997 Год назад +1

    A brilliant teacher.

  • @richardkollmar903
    @richardkollmar903 Год назад

    A priceless gift. Thank you!

  • @sergioventurini
    @sergioventurini Год назад

    Nice to watch a video that teaches criteria, how to think, and not just «data»

  • @memphis_RAlNS
    @memphis_RAlNS Год назад +1

    Great video Peter!

  • @dani7000
    @dani7000 Год назад +2

    Awesome playing, great teaching. Sound easy but that takes a lot of ear work. I'll do it! 👍

  • @barryo5158
    @barryo5158 Год назад +1

    Excellent! Thank you.

  • @TommyCosterMusic
    @TommyCosterMusic Год назад

    Such a valuable concept that is exactly how to approach fluidity in all keys. Ty sir…🔥🔥🔥

  • @jayumble8390
    @jayumble8390 4 месяца назад

    This is incredible, thank you!!

  • @Bashanvibe
    @Bashanvibe Год назад

    This makes so much sense!!! I usually use Al to help me learn records in a weird keys from the original key!!!

  • @fg87fgd
    @fg87fgd Год назад +1

    Great lesson. BTW: If you would like to get a helping hand from iReal B, click on "font" and then on "number notation".

  • @brendaboykin3281
    @brendaboykin3281 Год назад +1

    Thank you, Maestro 🌹🌹🌹🌹

  • @raybrown6992
    @raybrown6992 Год назад +1

    A brilliant exercise to widen one’s horizon 👍🏽

  • @jonathanpelosie813
    @jonathanpelosie813 Год назад

    This is about to change my life ! Thank you for sharing !

  • @strandedcandid
    @strandedcandid Год назад

    Excellent video! And I've started using solfege for the melody. The solfege syllables are the same no matter what key you are in. And, you're hearing the melody in relationship to Do, or the tonic of the key Center. Using the Roman numerals for the baseline works pretty good so that you can think of the chord structure. Thank you very much for posting!

  • @johnnyidris3596
    @johnnyidris3596 Год назад

    Beautiful, thank you

  • @MrLwa
    @MrLwa Год назад

    Great stuff . Thank you !!!

  • @drakestube
    @drakestube 4 месяца назад

    You guys are the best.

  • @thomascordery7951
    @thomascordery7951 Год назад

    "In the key of music", I love this concept.
    I'll say it's easier on a fretboard / fingerboard instrument like bass, guitar, violin etc., because then much of it is just moving shapes. But I'm just beginning to pick up piano and this is inspiring me to really learn my keyboard scales so I can still think in scale degrees.
    I think on the keyboard the challenge is similar to that on a wind instrument, perhaps especially a woodwind. Whatever shortcuts we take because they're easier come back to bite us sometimes. Nothing beats putting in the work.

  • @sweetoldetc
    @sweetoldetc Год назад +1

    I've been learning tunes in different keys for some time, and I've noticed that the more I do it, the more I rely on ears to do it rather than thinking about the notes. If you can already hear it clearly in your head and sing it, then all you need to do is just have your body respond to what you hear. It's a more direct way of playing since you are not spending time thinking about what chords, or what scale degree..etc.
    And it's probably what you need to be able to do in a real gig situation when a singer calls a tune in a key you've never played before, or even has to follow a tune that you are not familiar with. You don't have time to think, and your ears and your hands just need to be able to respond instantaneously. Of course, this might be a bit much if you are playing the modern tune with really complex non-functional harmony and rhythm, but I figured I should work myself to a point where listen to any traditional jazz standard and just be able to play it without having to think about it, because my ears/hands are ready and know what to do

  • @PhilippMoehrke
    @PhilippMoehrke Год назад

    Great Lesson. Thanxxx

  • @keysoftreehousekot1905
    @keysoftreehousekot1905 Год назад

    This was amazing!!! Thanks

  • @borriskarlov8140
    @borriskarlov8140 4 месяца назад

    Good one Peter!

  • @DrMax0
    @DrMax0 2 месяца назад

    Uh, that was quite advanced. And I learned some chord quirks too on the way thru. Many thanks ....

  • @oldunclemick
    @oldunclemick Год назад

    Excellent video 👍.

  • @MrArtist1971
    @MrArtist1971 Год назад

    Thank you! Awesome.

  • @bertramblik8826
    @bertramblik8826 Год назад

    A seemingly really unique and reasonable approach for becoming good in a smart and efficient way.

  • @wills3212
    @wills3212 Год назад

    fantastic!!

  • @zackmackmusic6655
    @zackmackmusic6655 Год назад

    So beautiful Peter. U remind me of the great Tony Germaine from my Berklee days. Man the way you guys comp reharmonies is so very out and pretty!

  • @EvanTateMusic
    @EvanTateMusic Год назад

    Great video! 😎👍🏾

  • @Deluca-Piano
    @Deluca-Piano Год назад

    I want more videos on this. This concept seems to be where everyone struggles. I almost want more explanation though. I've spent the last decade being told to transpose faster by so many people and not being able to do it fast enough to make my teachers happy.

  • @jansenrsouza
    @jansenrsouza Год назад

    An amazing ear training. I have to do this more and more!

  • @deprospero
    @deprospero Год назад

    Thank you Peter Martin

  • @VikasDeo
    @VikasDeo Год назад

    Thank you for this!! :)

  • @carlosaugustodossantos9682
    @carlosaugustodossantos9682 Год назад

    Transposition is good always!!!

  • @gabrielegambacorta8739
    @gabrielegambacorta8739 Год назад

    spectacular

  • @DJazium
    @DJazium Год назад

    Fantastic

  • @PeteMartinMandolin
    @PeteMartinMandolin Год назад

    Exellent!!!❤

  • @ili626
    @ili626 Год назад +1

    This video made me feel like a pro because that’s how i’ve always transposed. It’s just relative pitch

  • @jazzlife1
    @jazzlife1 Год назад

    Great tutorial Ellis Marsalis was a great pianist thanks for sharing

  • @DexterPiano
    @DexterPiano Год назад

    Thank you !!

  • @leonalexandre1451
    @leonalexandre1451 Год назад

    Amazing

  • @JohnCoughlan_JAC
    @JohnCoughlan_JAC Год назад

    Brilliant! Great advice and proof that I don’t know any standards as well as I should.

  • @Handle2point0
    @Handle2point0 Год назад

    Thank you, sir.

  • @jackdolphy8965
    @jackdolphy8965 Год назад

    Keys to the kingdom! Thank you :)

  • @stefanfischer4643
    @stefanfischer4643 Год назад

    You are a good Pianist! You are right! To Play Any Tune in any Key! That's It! Liebe Grüße Stefan 🌞

  • @raphiw2659
    @raphiw2659 Год назад

    Gamechanging video💪🏽

  • @BobMazzo
    @BobMazzo Год назад

    Still struggling with this after many years of playing, but I'm getting it. And now I'm teaching my 13 yr old to think this way. Thanks for this lesson.

  • @raphaelhudson
    @raphaelhudson Год назад

    Dude! Thanks so much. This was amazingly helpful. Now just have to be disciplined enough to think notes in scale degrees.

  • @dudorotomy
    @dudorotomy Год назад

    This is brilliant. i love your overall vibe. I play this way a bit on guitar, but guitar is a transposing instrument, so it makes it easier. Nevertheless, this is some gold you've given us here. Time to woodshed...

  • @abcdefghijklm4574
    @abcdefghijklm4574 Год назад +1

    Amazing chord voicings at the whole video. I wonder how is he able to come up with such variety and still sound amazing, is there a secret hidden on this? Usually I use root and 7th on LH and fill with the "fun" notes (extensions) using the RH. I wonder what kind of technique should be applied to "open the horizon" and be able to perform those beautiful chords. Astounding lesson, as always.

  • @danielstainier793
    @danielstainier793 Год назад

    Thank you

  • @jonashormann5700
    @jonashormann5700 Год назад

    Happy PRAC!

  • @SuperHyperExtra
    @SuperHyperExtra Год назад +89

    I listened enough Simpsons episodes to find tritone easy to sing...

    • @PaulPaul-vj2vx
      @PaulPaul-vj2vx Год назад +1

      I think the tritone is thought as b5 … in the simpsons they are #11s … the simpsons theme is in mixo#11 …

    • @theemraldwolf5874
      @theemraldwolf5874 Год назад +1

      @@PaulPaul-vj2vx Possibly.. Or a Lydian b7

    • @ParlaAmericanoWithBob
      @ParlaAmericanoWithBob Год назад +1

      @@PaulPaul-vj2vx same note though isn't it? b5, #4, #11

    • @PaulPaul-vj2vx
      @PaulPaul-vj2vx Год назад +2

      @@ParlaAmericanoWithBob same note on the fretboard, but whole different meaning for the chord to have a natural 5th or a diminished one … lydian#11 still has a natural 5th, while altered chords dont …