@@Honeydwarf85 I hear you it would be nice but reach into those pockets, cuz the prr t1's driver are 25000 each for the one they are building, it is comming along though now comes the frame, but the later ones were no where near as pretty built as the oldest machines from the early days. there is also a questionable claim in 1905 a prr engine briefly went 127 in the boarderlands of ohio and indiana on the way to fort wayne the altoona of the west, but some say it was not possible for the capabillites of the engine and the posts may not have been spaced exactly. that loco sadly was cut up in the 30's and a sister class of her got her name plate and took her place for show like at the worlds fair and so on, now its in the pennsy railroad museum I belive next to the straussburg railroad, would be something if actually true its faster then even the official record today, let alone all the later big engines that had even more power, like the t1's the s1, the s2, and the q 1 and 2, as well as the mohawks on the waterlevel, and niagras the peak of them all as far as design went. but none are as powerful as the engines lima built in shear horsepower running.
In the late 80’s we went to Chicago and it was raining and I was outside looking at this locomotive (it was outside and forlorn then) with fascination and my wife thought I was nuts. Good to see it inside and looked after.
Trains would do that, if not for the extremely small contact (we’re talking half an inch) their wheels have with the rails. It makes it’s weight a lot more effective and gives it more grip than if it had tires
@@LongStripeyScarf I appreciate that but I’m not talking about a few years ago. I’m talking about back then, when this was hi tech, cutting edge transportation technology
Today people would be scared but back then this was peak technology. The way we see the bullet train doing 200, that's how they saw this train doing 100+ back then
999 is easily, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful locomotives ever built. The styling, lettering, and proportions are just beautiful. I'm glad you made this video, before I really didn't know anything about the Empire State Express.
I am the VP of the Painesville Railroad Museum and we are current owners of the Collinwood 999 Engine. What a great video and thank you for including our engine. The Collinwood 999 engine was build at the NYC Collinwood yard in 1932.
Thank you, and you are quite welcome! Your company's Train Simulator add on pack model is phenomenal. Definitely the best one made of 999 that I've ever seen!
This is impressive. I have seen steam locomotives on RUclips from the United Kingdom that have reached similar speeds. To have a mechanical steam powered locomotive is a tribute to the creativity and genius of the designers of these incredible machines.
I was on a high school field trip to the Chicago Science and Industry Museum a few years ago. It was for my German class, we were going to visit the U-Boat exhibit. My teacher made it plainly clear that we would not have time to visit any other exhibits. As it turned out, our bus home ran late, and my teacher gave us permission to visit another exhibit while we waited. Our meeting point was right next to the room 999 was held in, so I gunned it as fast as I could. On our way out I also caught a glimpse of the Zephyr’s coaches. Swish looking train. 999, spectacular locomotive. I doubt it went 100 mph, same for City of Truro, but am I going to ruin the novelty for others? Had that legend not existed, the engine wouldn’t be here today, and that’s what’s important.
As with so many of these, the thing to be grateful for is that whether it actually did or not, the mere legend was enough to make sure that it was saved and not scrapped (just like City of Truro in the UK)
Determining speed by mile markers is pretty accurate. I have done it when on a train ironically the Empire Service Amtrak run. I have also done it when in the car on the interstate. Car speedometers are off a few mph even today back then I would think that they would be not as good. If they were measuring 35 seconds a mile they were going pretty fast and even with a bit of error they were over 100.
Exactly! Even in more modern times, if you drive an American car made in the late 1970s-1980s that displays a maximum of 85mph on the speedometer, you can take it beyond that speed and calculate it's true speed with mile markers on the road side and counting seconds between each marker(or use Google Maps gps, LoL)
When I was in my early teens, an elderly former engineer moved into the neighborhood. He told me with some pride that he had had the pleasure of running the 999. It was rather sad to see it sitting in the snow at the museum. As a side note, the larger locomotive there (a Northern???) was being moved to the museum along Lakeshore Avenue one Sunday afternoon as we were headed home. There were several truck cranes in attendance moving the track panels as the locomotive moved under steam to the museum.
thank you for this Great video. Thank you for telling about the Role of Avis in this famous story! i went through the old yard several times. verry proud that she is part of this Great story !
I'm certain she never touched over 100mph, but I'm also certain she was the fastest locomotive in the world at the time. It's great to see it having been preserved. :)
I’ve recently played Red Dead Redemption 2 & looked up what the game’s locomotives are based on: the 4-4-0 is based on 999 while the 4-6-0 is based on the Sierra No. 3 aka the train that pushed the DeLorean up to 88mph. Also I’m not really a fan of 4-4-0s but I really like this 1.
Matt, another fantastic video! Your research is second to none in the railfan (especially youtube) space. Keep it up! Look forward to watching the next one :)
Good looking locomotive, looks fast standing still ! I am a Brit but have always found these"American" class locos very elegant and they were also a long serving locomotive, As to the speeds , well it was early days and City of Truro suffered similarly,did she or didnt she? I would like to close the book and say its all true, until the dynomometer car came along.
Whether it got to that speed or not is still unreal and for it’s time that was fast cant believe the steam engines got even to 100 without breaking down. Damn shame they aren’t around today. History being lost daily
Omg I remember seeing that the locomotive when I was in 5 grade for a field trip. Now I thought it wasn’t and actual train. But thanks to this video I know it was the real thing. And it had so much history to it. Man I wish I could go back and see the train.
Went to MSi today for the first time in many, many years. Perhaps 20 years? Brought a very old friend with me and when he saw the 999 he wept. One of the earliest good memories he has is with his grandfather taking him to see the 999, over 20 years ago at MSi Chicago. We read every paragraph of info that was on display, and everything else there was to learn about the 999 as his eyes glistened like ive never seen Very wholesome moment and proof all men, are still boys deep down. Such a captivating piece lf machinery
The manga/anime Galaxy Express 999 takes its name from the famous flyer, as does the eponymous train within. Though the locomotive that pulls it is a JNR C62 4-6-4, itself a record setting class of engine, the passenger train's headboard and tail end drumhead proudly displays "999".
Very nice history story on 999. It looked stunning especially with the large 86" drivers, wished they could restore 999 back in that condition and not in its current rebuilt state. Even with a 5% error in the timings made this locomotive was still bloody fast, at least 98mph with a negative 5% error.
Fascinating story. Honestly, I no longer care which locomotive was the first to reach 100 mph. I've learned about so many famous locomotives in history at this point - some of whom did claim to be the first to reach the mythical three-figure speed - that that has become the most exciting part to me. :D
As a fan of US steam, and a native of central NY, I want to believe this old girl did break that 100mph mark. She probably didn't, considering her build, but to it's just so nice to think about the old girl blasting through my home territory doing the dollar
I have no doubt that the $9.99 went to 112 mile an hour. Well balanced steam engine can run as fast as the engineer can feed it Steam. Death Valley Scotty had a 262 Prairie hooked up to his private car and they spiked the switches in front of him and he made it from San Francisco I think to Chicago in like 30 hours or something. Faster than the Super Chief did 50 years later. A locomotive company could turn out one locomotive a month with a small company like Rogers who built the Sierra number 3. It took 28 days to build her originally and it took 3 years to restore her. Everything was craftsmanship and quality in those days. We exported 20% or more of the steam locomotives constructed to foreign countries because of the quality of our steam locomotives.
Actually the exports were more to do with price and especially delivery times. The Baldwin products had notoriously poor metalurgic quality, the boilers having a lifespan of less than half of what the similar nasmyth product was. Contemporary reports by CME Allison, although extremely keen on the US products for their traffic suitability and delivery times, was very dismissive of their lack of quality.
I doubt 999 reach 100mph. The problem with her is the time period. Locomotive around her time are pretty fast but definitely will fail if they try to reach 90.
As a Great Westerner I always believed that GWR City class no. 3440 (3717) City of Truro reached 102.3mph making it the first steam locomotive to reach 100mph.
It's widely believed so but there was no official data recording this record (other than Great Western's own words) that's why Flying Scotsman is officially the first to reach 100mph because they recorded it but given the GW's flat mainlines I think Truro probably was the 1st
@@Zarglax No official data recording this record (other than the Great Western's own words)? That's bollocks. The Great Western wanted to keep it quiet because they were afraid that the public would question their commitment to safety. Charles Rous-Marten (google him) did the timings and it wasn't until December 1907 that a table of maximum speeds of various locomotive classes was published in the Railway Magazine. City of Truro was finally named in the April 1908 edition as the City class loco that did 102.3 mph. 14 years later the Great Western finally laid claim to the record.
@@pf32900 There was no official evidence (from say a dynamometer car or repeated performances) other than one persons timings done 3 years before publication and not acknowledged by the GWR until PR had shifted towards a prestige & speed outlook a decade or so later. I was trying to write quick- I don't really do essays on RUclips comments!
The Buchanan 4-4-0's were beautiful engines, and designed for fast work; someone, I think it was O S Nock, said though that, due to the unbalanced reciprocating masses of her motion, at 112 mph the 999's driving wheels would have been lifting off the track with each revolution, which makes it a tadge unlikely. One thing which her run has in common with that of City of Truro is that - very unfairly - noone recorded the name of the fireman in either case. Without the tallow pot, neither of those speedsters were going anywhere! Old adage - the power of a steam locomotive varies in direct proportion to the strength of the fireman's back........ C Hamilton Ellis reckoned that the first driver to claim to have hit 100 mph was probably a USMRR hogger, outrunning a Confederate ambush!
I doubt that claim basically because the track work isnt good enough and tbh US railways even today just arent up to the job hence the numerous derailments even recently
Always doubted her claim to it, glad to see that validated even at the time. I mean, she would've certainly been a speedy bugger, but hitting the ton seems a bit much to me. Glad she's preserved though.
A more rigorous engineering based approach on RUclips calculated the amount of steam needed for the horsepower to get to that speed coupled with the limitations of the cylinder back pressure. The more rigorous method calculated it would struggle to get into the nineties.
The (East) German locomotive 18 201 was certified for 180 km/h (112 mph) and is still operable. It reportedly exceeded its official speed on some test runs. For a variety of reasons, current runs have not been anywhere near the locomotive's design speed. This locomotive was a one-of-a-kind developed especially for testing fast passenger rolling stock.
If those UP coal cars could hit 118+ mph running full dynamics on 2 engines. Side note on coal cars , 118 mph is a software limit on UP equipment and they probably were closer to 150 mph. Made me think about high speed rail a little different lol. Then I believe we had more then a couple 112 plus mph events happen in American Steam. Plus 999’s gots some tall ass drivers and being a relatively light early locomotive may have helped keep rotating mass down in the rods & valve train compared to later HIGH horsepower tall driver locomotives.
Great video what a beautiful locomotive even with bad timers at 112 mph at that point it probably did 100 mph 12 mph leaves a lot of room for error and the blur of objects going by would indicate 100 mph 80 inch drivers would allow that
"999 was the first to 100mph!" City of truro be like: 🤨 Flying Scotsman who holds the officially verified record be like: 🤨🤨🤨 Anyway, whether or not it actually achieved the record, at least it was enough to preserve the locomotive.
999 definitely didn't reach that speed lol City of Truro MIGHT have, but its still not very likely overall, Im gonna play it safe and say ol scotty was the first
..... You know even if they fudged the math abit, the Math indicates the Locomotive went faster. or if you're using the stations as destination reference points for true solidarity of measure then missing a few mile markers on a given trip doesn't matter.
Eh, standard human reaction time is around 3 tenths of a second, so it would still be around 32 seconds, especially if you are actively looking out for the one mile post.
Funny isn't it: a scant ten years after 999's, the ballistic 130mph kpev run, even though perfectly officially timed, has never garnered quite the recognition it deserves, being overshadowed by Truros run but being an abnormal vehicle wasn't by popular demand, although it's ended up being fairly obviously being closer to foreshadowing the future far more than 999 or truro could've ever dream about. Rather ironic ;)
Considering that both 999 and City of Truro are both 4-4-0 passenger engines, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it was both of them who broke 100 Cant really say if it was one or the other, so heck it, i think they both did. Look how similar they are, when British and American are usually starkly different But, at the end of the day, we all know it was good ol Scot who did it officially 😉
May be the bigger story is, not the speed, but the mobility. 999 was part of a development process that took mileages that would have taken days (potentially weeks) to cover fifty years or so year prior to hours. Whether or not it hit the speeds claimed is not the whole story, regular running at 86 mph+ over long distances, earning revenue is maybe the bigger claim. Not as exciting as speed records, but it pays for what comes after 999.
I don’t think it’s fair to claim it was the first to break 100mph because there is no solid proof, anyone can claim they did something but actually doing it is a different matter. City of Truro has a claim to it that’s Just as valid and I believe there was also a french loco that had the claim as well… but none of them have concrete evidence so as far as I’m concerned it’s all hearsay and a company lying to sell tickets. The first to 100mph was the flying Scotsman as it’s the only one of the four that we can prove to have hit 100mph. It was the only one to pull a dynamometer car.
Milwaukee Road 6402 probably did at least close to the ton a few months before Scotsman. It AVERAGED over 90mph for more than fifty miles, the highest claimed speedometer reading was 103mph.The run was to pave the way for the Hiawatha service. 6402 made better time than a typical run of the Hiawatha. (It's no secret that the Hi's routinely hit 100 or better.)
@@davefrompa5334 There are no surviving documents to support the claim of 6402's speed record, and a significant amount of the supposed "weight" behind the validity of the record comes from an enthusiast with no actual credentials.
@@SaintedDemonOkay, then British top speed claims without a dynamometer are questionable (Princess Elizabeth, Silver Link, Cheltenham Flyer, Coronation Scot, Bristolian) unless you're saying something is "written in stone" just because the British say so. I guess you're going to say that the Hiawatha never exceeded a 100mph, even though it did it on just about every trip, because they didn't save the speedometer tapes, or didn't use a dynamometer on every trip. "from an enthusiast with no actual credentials" Who are you talking about? Me? Who are you? First of all, the 6402's run wasn't some obscure incident, it was a special test run. It was well known and still is, at least among people that know anything about American railroading. I have to laugh at Limeys that accuse Americans of thinking the whole world is America. When it comes to fast steam trains, most Britons think the whole world is Britain (or Europe) Here's a tip - Read a book by BRITISH railway experts that were alive during the steam age, like O.S Nock or Cecil J. Allen. Locomotive Practice and Performance in the Twentieth Century by Allen is a good one. Jonathan Glancey's Giants of Steam is a recent work, but it has a lot of the same information. Then get back to me and tell me how the British wiped the floor with us.
i wonder if you took a steam engineer from when the bigboy was produced and took them back in time to when this loco was produced would they feel like this loco was slow or would they be ok with it cause of what they were used to
Not sure but does it need to qualify as a traveling train with passengers or freight? Or would it just be able to run on its own to qualify for the record? I've been a railroad buff, particularly steam era since three years old, but never knew the answer. Regardless, very impressive for a 4-4-0, but you can see why, look at the size of the drivers!
One factor to always figure, and is often forgotten when calculating locomotive speeds, is overall driver size. 999 had massive 86 inch drivers. Bigger wheels mean you can reach a higher top speed, but the time you take to get that higher speed could be significantly longer. There's actually a formula that can tell you the theoretical top speed of a wheel. Multiply half the diameter by 2 times pi, then multiply again by the RPM over 60. Using an online calculator, if 999 reached a top speed of 102 mph, then to achieve that it would need to have his drivers reach an rpm of 458.7. Using another formula based on the reported information of piston stroke, and bore, we can get an average piston speed at 102 mph to be 1912 feet per min, or roughly 22 mph speed of the piston itself. Looking at these numbers, 999 would easily have had enough boiler pressure to not only produce the needed piston speed, but also the rpm's needed to break 102 mph. Those numbers, in particular the piston speed with a 24 inch stroke, are well within tolerances of locomotives of the day. The added speed is easily chalked up to the massive drivers, and overall light build of the locomotive and cars it hauled.
Pretty universal formula. One could simply add the B&E tanks with their 108 inch drivers...: by that circumference formula they could've gone 150mph. brunels hurricane would've been insane, especially with the stupidly low piston speed of brunels which is a very large factor, just as much as large driving wheels. Bearing capacity plays a large part: Dean's county with its double frames obviously providing a very rigid bearing surface. 999's springing could've been out rightly dangerous. A scant ten years after 999's run for the kpevs 130mph run the train was bouncing so badly it was derailing almost constantly at the immense speed. Obviously the kpev run, even though perfectly officially timed, has never garnered quite the recognition it deserves, being overshadowed by Truros run but being an abnormal vehicle wasn't by popular demand, although it's ended up being fairly obviously being closer to foreshadowing the future far more than 999 or truro could've ever dream about. Rather ironic ;)
Engineer and historian O. S. Nock once said that as a result of the unbalanced reciprocating masses of 999's motion at 112 mph, her driving wheels would have been lifting off the track with each turn. City of Truro looks is a more likely candidate, since her run was timed far more accurately by Charles Rous-Marten, and she was headed downhill at the time. By the time the City of Truro reached Bristol Temple Meads, she scarcely had enough coal in her tender to get to the shed, which normally would not have been the case with her class, indicating an unusually fast run.
you can easily see mile posts at 60 and at 90 mph 112 wouldnt be that much different... There were also multiple timers onboard the trains. she easily could have achived those speeds with her drive wheels and while at a high speed already opening her up with a full head of steam she probably could have gone faster.
At the time NOTHING else on earth cars motorbikes etc had done over a 100mph City of Turo in Britain early 1900s went over 100 about 102-103 BUT it was Not official so not recognized!! In the UK a dynamometer car was used for an official record.
I remember visiting 999 when it was displayed outside the Museum of Science and Industry along with AT&SF 4-8-4 number 2903 and the U-505. I am glad that it has been moved inside. 2903 is now at the Illinois Railroad Museum. NYC didn’t save any modern steam locomotives although there is one in Elkhart. I believe that 999 went over 100 mph. Railroad watches were very accurate even at that time.
Shame that all high speed claims for steam locomotives are dubious at best. Pretty much no steam locomotive had a spedometer, and though I like to believe distance over time is perfectly good, anything that's even slightly doubtable isn't good enough for official records. Even with a 4 second margin of error, a 36 second mile is 100 mph, and a 28 second mile is 128. So unless the railroad just straight up lied I'm confident in saying the loco managed 100. Feel free to say I'm wrong if you think that assessment is unfair.
Think the opening words for this video summarise it all, a "Story" Sorry America, think the flying Scott beat ya there! Officially authenticated with a ton of data all indicating the same thing.. 161 kph.. or... 100mph!
@guyfrances "think Flying Scotsman beat ya there!" Maybe and maybe not. Milwaukee Road 6402 AVERAGED over 90 miles an hour for more than sixty miles running between Chicago and Milwaukee. The highest reported speedometer reading was 103 miles an hour. This was a trial run to pave the way for the streamlined Hiawatha service, the fastest REGULAR SCHEDULED steam train service ever. The run took place in 1934, a few months before Scotsman's record. The 6402 made better overall time than a typical run of the Hiawatha. It's no secret that the Hi's routinely hit 100 mph or better.
@@davefrompa5334 All the major institutions (including the American Smithsonian Institution) accept the Scotsman as the first locomotive to reach 100 mph. If any reasonable doubt about the Scotsman's record ever existed, they would be a lot better known due to the Scotsman's international fame.
@@SaintedDemon It's the first engine to "officially" reach 100mph. I didn't even say the 6402 reached 100 mph, I said it AVERAGED over 90 mph for more than fifty miles, which means there's a strong chance it hit the ton. (You don't need a dynamometer car to figure out average speeds over long distances.) If a British engine turned in a performance like that, you'd never hear the end of it. This was a special test run like I mentioned before, not a random event, so if you don't believe the claimed average speed on one section of the run, then I guess you think the whole Milwaukee Road management are liars. I believe I have a magazine from the time that has a log of the run. Also, Scotsman may have fallen short of the ton. There was a sudden jump from 98mph to 100mph, and possibly back down on the recording scroll, almost as if the recording pen had been bumped. You might want to check out Fastest steam locomotive germansteamlocomotive.com uk. website. It has a record on fast steam train runs including Scotsman and 6402. I'm pretty sure it's by a British author.
@@SaintedDemon Don't quote the Smithsonian as a reputable institution to me.I saw their book "Train-The Definitive History. I think the book is garbage, even if it did get rave reviews from a lot of people that probably don't know much about the subject themselves. I believe the editor was a British car guy that didn't know much about trains, at least not American railroading. It shows. One example - The top speed for the Pennsylvania Railroad K4 Pacific locomotive was given as 70 mph. Those engines routinely ran at scheduled AVERAGE speeds of more than 70. The Detroit Arrow routinely ran the 141 miles between Englewood, Illinois and Ft Wayne, Indianna in 115 minutes. The top speed was routinely 90 mph or better. Sources- The Railway Magazine, Issue 492, June 1938 Giants of Steam Jonathan Glancey Locomotive Practice and Performance in the Twentieth Century Cecil J. Allen (All British Publications) There's also plenty of other good American steam locomotives that should have been mentioned that weren't.
If I ever win a multi-million dollar lotto jackpot, I'd like to rescue and restore a bunch of old steam locomotives to running condition, build a small railway and housing for them, and open it up to the public. Hey, did anyone win that $900,000,000 Mega Millions jackpot yet on January 6th 2023? I realize I'd lose money on such a venture, but idc... I'd still have some cash leftover to live off of and invest in more profitable endeavors.
Whether she went 112.5 mph or not, she's still a historic beauty and I'm glad she's preserved.
Definitely for sure! I do wish she kept or had replicas made of those massive drivers!
@@Honeydwarf85 I hear you it would be nice but reach into those pockets, cuz the prr t1's driver are 25000 each for the one they are building, it is comming along though now comes the frame, but the later ones were no where near as pretty built as the oldest machines from the early days.
there is also a questionable claim in 1905 a prr engine briefly went 127 in the boarderlands of ohio and indiana on the way to fort wayne the altoona of the west, but some say it was not possible for the capabillites of the engine and the posts may not have been spaced exactly. that loco sadly was cut up in the 30's and a sister class of her got her name plate and took her place for show like at the worlds fair and so on, now its in the pennsy railroad museum I belive next to the straussburg railroad, would be something if actually true its faster then even the official record today, let alone all the later big engines that had even more power, like the t1's the s1, the s2, and the q 1 and 2, as well as the mohawks on the waterlevel, and niagras the peak of them all as far as design went. but none are as powerful as the engines lima built in shear horsepower running.
@Fake Furry and not violently ripped up by a certain nyc chainsaw weilding madman
In the late 80’s we went to Chicago and it was raining and I was outside looking at this locomotive (it was outside and forlorn then) with fascination and my wife thought I was nuts. Good to see it inside and looked after.
@harrybobb1692 I think it is only cosmetically restored.
Man, the 999 looks like it would tip over with a light breeze. That height-width ratio is insane!
Great looking engine for sure. That height-width ratio definitely is immediately noticeable.
Trains would do that, if not for the extremely small contact (we’re talking half an inch) their wheels have with the rails. It makes it’s weight a lot more effective and gives it more grip than if it had tires
To go 100mph today in a steam engine sounds insane, I can’t imagine what that must’ve been like back than
We’re still doing it in Britain. Tornado did it only a couple of years ago, even after the signallers made a mess of the plan.
@@LongStripeyScarf I appreciate that but I’m not talking about a few years ago. I’m talking about back then, when this was hi tech, cutting edge transportation technology
Need to look into the PRR T-1...
@@NYCS19339 I have. You should make a donation
Today people would be scared but back then this was peak technology. The way we see the bullet train doing 200, that's how they saw this train doing 100+ back then
999 is easily, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful locomotives ever built. The styling, lettering, and proportions are just beautiful. I'm glad you made this video, before I really didn't know anything about the Empire State Express.
I am the VP of the Painesville Railroad Museum and we are current owners of the Collinwood 999 Engine. What a great video and thank you for including our engine. The Collinwood 999 engine was build at the NYC Collinwood yard in 1932.
Wait I thought it was owned by the museum of science and industry which is why it’s in Chicago
@@thatconservativetrainguy3864 He's referring to the replica they use in parades, not the original engine.
Extremely educational and historical video! We are very grateful to you for using our Empire State Express Bundle for Train Simulator Classic.
Thank you, and you are quite welcome! Your company's Train Simulator add on pack model is phenomenal. Definitely the best one made of 999 that I've ever seen!
This is impressive. I have seen steam locomotives on RUclips from the United Kingdom that have reached similar speeds. To have a mechanical steam powered locomotive is a tribute to the creativity and genius of the designers of these incredible machines.
It's so poetic that it started being shown next to an "old" locomotive at the show, then years later being used as the older locomotive
I was on a high school field trip to the Chicago Science and Industry Museum a few years ago. It was for my German class, we were going to visit the U-Boat exhibit. My teacher made it plainly clear that we would not have time to visit any other exhibits. As it turned out, our bus home ran late, and my teacher gave us permission to visit another exhibit while we waited. Our meeting point was right next to the room 999 was held in, so I gunned it as fast as I could. On our way out I also caught a glimpse of the Zephyr’s coaches. Swish looking train. 999, spectacular locomotive. I doubt it went 100 mph, same for City of Truro, but am I going to ruin the novelty for others? Had that legend not existed, the engine wouldn’t be here today, and that’s what’s important.
As with so many of these, the thing to be grateful for is that whether it actually did or not, the mere legend was enough to make sure that it was saved and not scrapped (just like City of Truro in the UK)
Determining speed by mile markers is pretty accurate. I have done it when on a train ironically the Empire Service Amtrak run. I have also done it when in the car on the interstate. Car speedometers are off a few mph even today back then I would think that they would be not as good. If they were measuring 35 seconds a mile they were going pretty fast and even with a bit of error they were over 100.
Exactly! Even in more modern times, if you drive an American car made in the late 1970s-1980s that displays a maximum of 85mph on the speedometer, you can take it beyond that speed and calculate it's true speed with mile markers on the road side and counting seconds between each marker(or use Google Maps gps, LoL)
I was just watching some railroad street videos last night and wondering when the next one will drop, quite a nice surprise to wake up to.
When I was in my early teens, an elderly former engineer moved into the neighborhood. He told me with some pride that he had had the pleasure of running the 999. It was rather sad to see it sitting in the snow at the museum. As a side note, the larger locomotive there (a Northern???) was being moved to the museum along Lakeshore Avenue one Sunday afternoon as we were headed home. There were several truck cranes in attendance moving the track panels as the locomotive moved under steam to the museum.
thank you for this Great video. Thank you for telling about the Role of Avis in this famous story! i went through the old yard several times. verry proud that she is part of this Great story !
I'm certain she never touched over 100mph, but I'm also certain she was the fastest locomotive in the world at the time.
It's great to see it having been preserved. :)
I’ve recently played Red Dead Redemption 2 & looked up what the game’s locomotives are based on: the 4-4-0 is based on 999 while the 4-6-0 is based on the Sierra No. 3 aka the train that pushed the DeLorean up to 88mph. Also I’m not really a fan of 4-4-0s but I really like this 1.
If people believe that city of truo went 100 mph I believe that this one could
Matt, another fantastic video! Your research is second to none in the railfan (especially youtube) space. Keep it up! Look forward to watching the next one :)
Hey Keith, thanks so much! It's been awhile, how are you?
I have seen this locomotive irl before and it always made me curious whether this, Flying Scotsman, or City of Truro was the first to hit 100
I’m always of the opinion that it was the Scotsman but as a Scotsman I’m kinda biased 😅
I don’t know why but every time I look at 999, I think “I wanna drive that thing!”
Good looking locomotive, looks fast standing still ! I am a Brit but have always found these"American" class locos very elegant and they were also a long serving locomotive,
As to the speeds , well it was early days and City of Truro suffered similarly,did she or didnt she?
I would like to close the book and say its all true, until the dynomometer car came along.
Very well researched and well presented. Just one observation - she's still a handsome engine, but she's lost her 86 inch driving wheels
Whether it got to that speed or not is still unreal and for it’s time that was fast cant believe the steam engines got even to 100 without breaking down. Damn shame they aren’t around today. History being lost daily
Omg I remember seeing that the locomotive when I was in 5 grade for a field trip. Now I thought it wasn’t and actual train. But thanks to this video I know it was the real thing. And it had so much history to it. Man I wish I could go back and see the train.
If it did, or didn't, I think we can agree that She was one of the fastest, and her crew were competent and good =)
Also i think she was the Fastest 4-4-0, but im not sure
@@FranquitoMV2004 I'd say she was, and the last of an era, went out in style - speaking of era, Happy New Year!
@@nelsonnoname001 Happy new year to you too boii, and for everyone in general
Went to MSi today for the first time in many, many years. Perhaps 20 years? Brought a very old friend with me and when he saw the 999 he wept. One of the earliest good memories he has is with his grandfather taking him to see the 999, over 20 years ago at MSi Chicago. We read every paragraph of info that was on display, and everything else there was to learn about the 999 as his eyes glistened like ive never seen Very wholesome moment and proof all men, are still boys deep down. Such a captivating piece lf machinery
That was Painesville, Ohio! So, cool! I just went over those tracks and passed Smoothie King the other day!
So City of Truro and Flying scotsman has another rival?
Yup seems like it lol
She was always a favorite and special to me.
These machines have no rival in their beauty and strength.
@Outlinedstorm76 I just meant steam locomotives in general. My God new pullers are hideous
The manga/anime Galaxy Express 999 takes its name from the famous flyer, as does the eponymous train within. Though the locomotive that pulls it is a JNR C62 4-6-4, itself a record setting class of engine, the passenger train's headboard and tail end drumhead proudly displays "999".
Very nice history story on 999.
It looked stunning especially with the large 86" drivers, wished they could restore 999 back in that condition and not in its current rebuilt state.
Even with a 5% error in the timings made this locomotive was still bloody fast, at least 98mph with a negative 5% error.
16:16 that's a nice whistle
Reminds me of pennsylvania railroad 7002's whistle
Always enjoy your videos. This one especially 😉
Fascinating story. Honestly, I no longer care which locomotive was the first to reach 100 mph. I've learned about so many famous locomotives in history at this point - some of whom did claim to be the first to reach the mythical three-figure speed - that that has become the most exciting part to me. :D
Excellent documentary! Thank you!
As a fan of US steam, and a native of central NY, I want to believe this old girl did break that 100mph mark. She probably didn't, considering her build, but to it's just so nice to think about the old girl blasting through my home territory doing the dollar
Haven't heard that expression before. Here in GB we'd say 'doing the ton'.
City of truro, Flying Scotsman and Lindbergh Special would like to have a word
Those all came after 999s supposed run.
Don't forget class Js they too are super fast steam locomotives
The Japanese cartoon series galaxy railways has a 999 and a Union Pacific Big Boy locomotive called Big One
I have no doubt that the $9.99 went to 112 mile an hour. Well balanced steam engine can run as fast as the engineer can feed it Steam. Death Valley Scotty had a 262 Prairie hooked up to his private car and they spiked the switches in front of him and he made it from San Francisco I think to Chicago in like 30 hours or something. Faster than the Super Chief did 50 years later. A locomotive company could turn out one locomotive a month with a small company like Rogers who built the Sierra number 3. It took 28 days to build her originally and it took 3 years to restore her. Everything was craftsmanship and quality in those days. We exported 20% or more of the steam locomotives constructed to foreign countries because of the quality of our steam locomotives.
Actually the exports were more to do with price and especially delivery times. The Baldwin products had notoriously poor metalurgic quality, the boilers having a lifespan of less than half of what the similar nasmyth product was. Contemporary reports by CME Allison, although extremely keen on the US products for their traffic suitability and delivery times, was very dismissive of their lack of quality.
I doubt 999 reach 100mph. The problem with her is the time period. Locomotive around her time are pretty fast but definitely will fail if they try to reach 90.
Always wanted a model of this locomotive for my layout
Ngl
Should rebuild it to the larger wheel+boiler standard lol
As a Great Westerner I always believed that GWR City class no. 3440 (3717) City of Truro reached 102.3mph making it the first steam locomotive to reach 100mph.
I'm British and I agree. City of Truro is also arguably the first engine to go 100mph.
It's widely believed so but there was no official data recording this record (other than Great Western's own words) that's why Flying Scotsman is officially the first to reach 100mph because they recorded it but given the GW's flat mainlines I think Truro probably was the 1st
@@Zarglax No official data recording this record (other than the Great Western's own words)? That's bollocks. The Great Western wanted to keep it quiet because they were afraid that the public would question their commitment to safety. Charles Rous-Marten (google him) did the timings and it wasn't until December 1907 that a table of maximum speeds of various locomotive classes was published in the Railway Magazine. City of Truro was finally named in the April 1908 edition as the City class loco that did 102.3 mph. 14 years later the Great Western finally laid claim to the record.
@@pf32900 There was no official evidence (from say a dynamometer car or repeated performances) other than one persons timings done 3 years before publication and not acknowledged by the GWR until PR had shifted towards a prestige & speed outlook a decade or so later. I was trying to write quick- I don't really do essays on RUclips comments!
The Buchanan 4-4-0's were beautiful engines, and designed for fast work; someone, I think it was O S Nock, said though that, due to the unbalanced reciprocating masses of her motion, at 112 mph the 999's driving wheels would have been lifting off the track with each revolution, which makes it a tadge unlikely. One thing which her run has in common with that of City of Truro is that - very unfairly - noone recorded the name of the fireman in either case. Without the tallow pot, neither of those speedsters were going anywhere! Old adage - the power of a steam locomotive varies in direct proportion to the strength of the fireman's back........
C Hamilton Ellis reckoned that the first driver to claim to have hit 100 mph was probably a USMRR hogger, outrunning a Confederate ambush!
I doubt that claim basically because the track work isnt good enough and tbh US railways even today just arent up to the job hence the numerous derailments even recently
Great video mate!!
When the timers were using ⏱ a stopwatch , or a precision chronograph, the timers were more used to timing race horses 🐎 😀.!!!!!
Excellent Video And Great Channel!👍
Good work!!
Always doubted her claim to it, glad to see that validated even at the time. I mean, she would've certainly been a speedy bugger, but hitting the ton seems a bit much to me. Glad she's preserved though.
A more rigorous engineering based approach on RUclips calculated the amount of steam needed for the horsepower to get to that speed coupled with the limitations of the cylinder back pressure.
The more rigorous method calculated it would struggle to get into the nineties.
The (East) German locomotive 18 201 was certified for 180 km/h (112 mph) and is still operable. It reportedly exceeded its official speed on some test runs. For a variety of reasons, current runs have not been anywhere near the locomotive's design speed.
This locomotive was a one-of-a-kind developed especially for testing fast passenger rolling stock.
Yes, but it used performance enhancing logs.
Red, rumor has it that the logs were soaked in
Nitro Methane 👍🤣
Very well researched and presented.
If those UP coal cars could hit 118+ mph running full dynamics on 2 engines.
Side note on coal cars , 118 mph is a software limit on UP equipment and they probably were closer to 150 mph.
Made me think about high speed rail a little different lol.
Then I believe we had more then a couple 112 plus mph events happen in American Steam.
Plus 999’s gots some tall ass drivers and being a relatively light early locomotive may have helped keep rotating mass down in the rods & valve train compared to later HIGH horsepower tall driver locomotives.
Great video what a beautiful locomotive even with bad timers at 112 mph at that point it probably did 100 mph 12 mph leaves a lot of room for error and the blur of objects going by would indicate 100 mph 80 inch drivers would allow that
A good story well told.
This or a replica is at the Museum of Science & Industry in Chicago it's full size scale
"999 was the first to 100mph!"
City of truro be like: 🤨
Flying Scotsman who holds the officially verified record be like: 🤨🤨🤨
Anyway, whether or not it actually achieved the record, at least it was enough to preserve the locomotive.
999 definitely didn't reach that speed lol
City of Truro MIGHT have, but its still not very likely
overall, Im gonna play it safe and say ol scotty was the first
..... You know even if they fudged the math abit, the Math indicates the Locomotive went faster. or if you're using the stations as destination reference points for true solidarity of measure then missing a few mile markers on a given trip doesn't matter.
L’Aigle was rumored to have reached 100mph around that time in France. But it may have never reached it in the first place.
Has anyone calculated error on the speed measurement, human reaction times, etc. will influence the accuracy of the timings.
Eh, standard human reaction time is around 3 tenths of a second, so it would still be around 32 seconds, especially if you are actively looking out for the one mile post.
That was a great story.
Funny isn't it: a scant ten years after 999's, the ballistic 130mph kpev run, even though perfectly officially timed, has never garnered quite the recognition it deserves, being overshadowed by Truros run but being an abnormal vehicle wasn't by popular demand, although it's ended up being fairly obviously being closer to foreshadowing the future far more than 999 or truro could've ever dream about. Rather ironic ;)
What’s interesting to me is over 100 years later a base model Toyota Camry can hit similar speeds
Considering that both 999 and City of Truro are both 4-4-0 passenger engines, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it was both of them who broke 100
Cant really say if it was one or the other, so heck it, i think they both did. Look how similar they are, when British and American are usually starkly different
But, at the end of the day, we all know it was good ol Scot who did it officially 😉
Another fun fact: the 4-4-0 used in the game red dead redemption 2 is based of nyc 999
hello from Kansas🇺🇸
The only way that a 4-4-0 could do 100 mph would be straight down a very deep mine shaft. 🤣
May be the bigger story is, not the speed, but the mobility. 999 was part of a development process that took mileages that would have taken days (potentially weeks) to cover fifty years or so year prior to hours.
Whether or not it hit the speeds claimed is not the whole story, regular running at 86 mph+ over long distances, earning revenue is maybe the bigger claim. Not as exciting as speed records, but it pays for what comes after 999.
i wish it still had it's huge drivers.
999’s 86 inch drive wheels make going at 100 mph possible but unlikely because of the small size of her cylinders and her low boiler pressure
Since when did that go over 100 mph
It never did. The tractive effort calculations and aerodynamics alone says 999 can't do 100 light engine, let alone 112 with a full consist.
I don’t think it’s fair to claim it was the first to break 100mph because there is no solid proof, anyone can claim they did something but actually doing it is a different matter. City of Truro has a claim to it that’s Just as valid and I believe there was also a french loco that had the claim as well… but none of them have concrete evidence so as far as I’m concerned it’s all hearsay and a company lying to sell tickets.
The first to 100mph was the flying Scotsman as it’s the only one of the four that we can prove to have hit 100mph. It was the only one to pull a dynamometer car.
Milwaukee Road 6402 probably did at least close to the ton a few months before Scotsman. It AVERAGED over 90mph for more than fifty miles, the highest claimed speedometer reading was 103mph.The run was to pave the way for the Hiawatha service. 6402 made better time than a typical run of the Hiawatha. (It's no secret that the Hi's routinely hit 100 or better.)
@@davefrompa5334 There are no surviving documents to support the claim of 6402's speed record, and a significant amount of the supposed "weight" behind the validity of the record comes from an enthusiast with no actual credentials.
@@SaintedDemonOkay, then British top speed claims without a dynamometer are questionable (Princess Elizabeth, Silver Link, Cheltenham Flyer, Coronation Scot, Bristolian) unless you're saying something is "written in stone" just because the British say so. I guess you're going to say that the Hiawatha never exceeded a 100mph, even though it did it on just about every trip, because they didn't save the speedometer tapes, or didn't use a dynamometer on every trip.
"from an enthusiast with no actual credentials" Who are you talking about? Me? Who are you? First of all, the 6402's run wasn't some obscure incident, it was a special test run. It was well known and still is, at least among people that know anything about American railroading. I have to laugh at Limeys that accuse Americans of thinking the whole world is America. When it comes to fast steam trains, most Britons think the whole world is Britain (or Europe) Here's a tip - Read a book by BRITISH railway experts that were alive during the steam age, like O.S Nock or Cecil J. Allen. Locomotive Practice and Performance in the Twentieth Century by Allen is a good one. Jonathan Glancey's Giants of Steam is a recent work, but it has a lot of the same information. Then get back to me and tell me how the British wiped the floor with us.
i wonder if you took a steam engineer from when the bigboy was produced and took them back in time to when this loco was produced would they feel like this loco was slow or would they be ok with it cause of what they were used to
What types of Blue the original 999 had because i think She looks Amazing with it 🙂
It was called "Russia Iron."
Not sure but does it need to qualify as a traveling train with passengers or freight? Or would it just be able to run on its own to qualify for the record? I've been a railroad buff, particularly steam era since three years old, but never knew the answer. Regardless, very impressive for a 4-4-0, but you can see why, look at the size of the drivers!
One factor to always figure, and is often forgotten when calculating locomotive speeds, is overall driver size. 999 had massive 86 inch drivers. Bigger wheels mean you can reach a higher top speed, but the time you take to get that higher speed could be significantly longer. There's actually a formula that can tell you the theoretical top speed of a wheel. Multiply half the diameter by 2 times pi, then multiply again by the RPM over 60. Using an online calculator, if 999 reached a top speed of 102 mph, then to achieve that it would need to have his drivers reach an rpm of 458.7. Using another formula based on the reported information of piston stroke, and bore, we can get an average piston speed at 102 mph to be 1912 feet per min, or roughly 22 mph speed of the piston itself.
Looking at these numbers, 999 would easily have had enough boiler pressure to not only produce the needed piston speed, but also the rpm's needed to break 102 mph. Those numbers, in particular the piston speed with a 24 inch stroke, are well within tolerances of locomotives of the day. The added speed is easily chalked up to the massive drivers, and overall light build of the locomotive and cars it hauled.
Pretty universal formula. One could simply add the B&E tanks with their 108 inch drivers...: by that circumference formula they could've gone 150mph. brunels hurricane would've been insane, especially with the stupidly low piston speed of brunels which is a very large factor, just as much as large driving wheels. Bearing capacity plays a large part: Dean's county with its double frames obviously providing a very rigid bearing surface. 999's springing could've been out rightly dangerous. A scant ten years after 999's run for the kpevs 130mph run the train was bouncing so badly it was derailing almost constantly at the immense speed. Obviously the kpev run, even though perfectly officially timed, has never garnered quite the recognition it deserves, being overshadowed by Truros run but being an abnormal vehicle wasn't by popular demand, although it's ended up being fairly obviously being closer to foreshadowing the future far more than 999 or truro could've ever dream about. Rather ironic ;)
Engineer and historian O. S. Nock once said that as a result of the unbalanced reciprocating masses of 999's motion at 112 mph, her driving wheels would have been lifting off the track with each turn.
City of Truro looks is a more likely candidate, since her run was timed far more accurately by Charles Rous-Marten, and she was headed downhill at the time. By the time the City of Truro reached Bristol Temple Meads, she scarcely had enough coal in her tender to get to the shed, which normally would not have been the case with her class, indicating an unusually fast run.
Question, which month was New York Central 999 built?
The locomotive is turning 130 Years old this year
Why not fix it and find out? I mean money but people would pay to see it happen.
you can easily see mile posts at 60 and at 90 mph 112 wouldnt be that much different... There were also multiple timers onboard the trains. she easily could have achived those speeds with her drive wheels and while at a high speed already opening her up with a full head of steam she probably could have gone faster.
At the time NOTHING else on earth cars motorbikes etc had done over a 100mph City of Turo in Britain early 1900s went over 100 about 102-103 BUT it was Not official so not recognized!! In the UK a dynamometer car was used for an official record.
4:24 what is that a camelback? how about a blurb on that thing, I can't find much about it on my own
Yes, it is. That is a photo of Philadelphia and Reading Railroad camelback 4-4-0 #373, built in 1882 by the Reading.
Why didn't it get restored back with the 86 inch driver and cylinders?
I believe she could run again if she was restored!
Well the first steamengines going officislly over 100 mph, were from the UK in 1904 and Germany in 1905. So, 1932 is beaten.
I remember visiting 999 when it was displayed outside the Museum of Science and Industry along with AT&SF 4-8-4 number 2903 and the U-505. I am glad that it has been moved inside. 2903 is now at the Illinois Railroad Museum. NYC didn’t save any modern steam locomotives although there is one in Elkhart. I believe that 999 went over 100 mph. Railroad watches were very accurate even at that time.
Shame that all high speed claims for steam locomotives are dubious at best. Pretty much no steam locomotive had a spedometer, and though I like to believe distance over time is perfectly good, anything that's even slightly doubtable isn't good enough for official records. Even with a 4 second margin of error, a 36 second mile is 100 mph, and a 28 second mile is 128. So unless the railroad just straight up lied I'm confident in saying the loco managed 100. Feel free to say I'm wrong if you think that assessment is unfair.
It did hit 112 mph, and it did it without near massive bearing failures like a certain lame duck uk engine...
definitely not 100 let alone 112 but the 86mph calculated is very respectable for the time.
Think the opening words for this video summarise it all, a "Story" Sorry America, think the flying Scott beat ya there! Officially authenticated with a ton of data all indicating the same thing.. 161 kph.. or... 100mph!
@guyfrances "think Flying Scotsman beat ya there!" Maybe and maybe not.
Milwaukee Road 6402 AVERAGED over 90 miles an hour for more than sixty miles running between Chicago and
Milwaukee. The highest reported speedometer reading was 103 miles an hour. This was a trial run to pave the way for
the streamlined Hiawatha service, the fastest REGULAR SCHEDULED steam train service ever. The run took place in
1934, a few months before Scotsman's record.
The 6402 made better overall time than a typical run of the Hiawatha. It's no secret that the Hi's routinely hit
100 mph or better.
@@davefrompa5334 All the major institutions (including the American Smithsonian Institution) accept the Scotsman as the first locomotive to reach 100 mph. If any reasonable doubt about the Scotsman's record ever existed, they would be a lot better known due to the Scotsman's international fame.
@@SaintedDemon It's the first engine to "officially" reach 100mph. I didn't even say the 6402 reached 100 mph, I said it AVERAGED over 90 mph for more than fifty miles, which means there's a strong chance it hit the ton. (You don't need a dynamometer car to figure out average speeds over long distances.) If a British engine turned in a performance like that, you'd never hear the end of it. This was a special test run like I mentioned before, not a random event, so if you don't believe the claimed average speed on one section of the run, then I guess you think the whole Milwaukee Road management are liars. I believe I have a magazine from the time that has a log of the run.
Also, Scotsman may have fallen short of the ton. There was a sudden jump from 98mph to 100mph, and possibly back down on the recording scroll, almost as if the recording pen had been bumped. You might want to check out Fastest steam locomotive germansteamlocomotive.com uk. website. It has a record on fast steam train runs including Scotsman and 6402. I'm pretty sure it's by a British author.
@@SaintedDemon Don't quote the Smithsonian as a reputable institution to me.I saw their book "Train-The Definitive History. I think the book is garbage, even if it did get rave reviews from a lot of people that probably don't know much about the subject themselves. I believe the editor was a British car guy that didn't know much about trains, at least not American railroading. It shows.
One example - The top speed for the Pennsylvania Railroad K4 Pacific locomotive was given as 70 mph. Those engines routinely ran at scheduled AVERAGE speeds of more than 70. The Detroit Arrow routinely ran the 141 miles between Englewood, Illinois and Ft Wayne, Indianna in 115 minutes. The top speed was routinely 90 mph or better.
Sources- The Railway Magazine, Issue 492, June 1938
Giants of Steam Jonathan Glancey
Locomotive Practice and Performance in the Twentieth Century Cecil J. Allen
(All British Publications)
There's also plenty of other good American steam locomotives that should have been mentioned that weren't.
Well I guess it could get a delorean up to 88 mph
I'd just let NYC 999 have it. It doesn't matter, we know other locomotives have done it, she could have done it too.
86 I think was the real speed
Still impressive for 4-4-0
Today it’s hard to imagine why anyone would urgently need to travel to Buffalo or Chicago.
I thought it was flying scottsman was
Huh, so two of the rumoured 100mph record holders were 4-4-0s
Galaxy Express 999
If I ever win a multi-million dollar lotto jackpot, I'd like to rescue and restore a bunch of old steam locomotives to running condition, build a small railway and housing for them, and open it up to the public. Hey, did anyone win that $900,000,000 Mega Millions jackpot yet on January 6th 2023? I realize I'd lose money on such a venture, but idc... I'd still have some cash leftover to live off of and invest in more profitable endeavors.
Could she be brought back to steam?
A nyc engine that wasent maniacally chainsawed by alfred e pearlman. Thats insane.
I have timed mile markers at 80 on the highway while driving a car. I think they could time from a train. Still may not have broke 100 though.