My favorite bit of Niagara flexing on its competitors was when they took one out for like a publicity campaign and decided to stop the engine, tie some ropes to the front end and have 4 or 5 supermodels pull the engine to demonstrate how good its bearings were and how balanced the engine was. I wish we would have preserved at least one of these great engines
Reminds me of when a Toyota pickup truck was used to tow the Space Shuttle Endeavour by itself when Endeavour was being moved to a museum. Great publicity for Toyota.
Both the Niagara and the Timken locomotive were 'shown off' to the press and public being pulled by attractive women. (I believe there are RUclips clips of both). That said, I've always had a bit of a suspicion that the valve- and piston-ring lubrication would pose a substantial drag, especially with the engine cold, so there might have been some strategic 'preparation' to make the show possible.
Both the Niagara and the Timken locomotive were 'shown off' to the press and public being pulled by attractive women. (I believe there are RUclips clips of both). That said, I've always had a bit of a suspicion that the valve- and piston-ring lubrication would pose a substantial drag, especially with the engine cold, so there might have been some strategic 'preparation' to make the show possible.
As a certified nyc foamer, I can confirm. Also based, I’ve donated to the Danbury rail museum S and T motor preservation before, 1000% worth the cause and I highly reccomend doing it Those motors are pieces of history
Just donated a small sum myself. I would really love to see these old electrics be preserved, especially since so little of the Central remains today compared to other railroads.
The lack of a preserved Niagara or Hudson is nothing short of a national tragedy. I’m glad to see a renewed focus on preservation. We can, and will, do better to preserve our railroading and engineering history.
When the NYC started selling their Hudsons off for scrap they received the whopping sum of $10,077 each to Luria Bros Scrap even though many communities and other organizations wished to have one donated or they even might have bought them Perlman wanted all Steam Locos scrapped as they were from the past and not the new modern NYC. The fact that their are 2 Mohawks still around is purely by accident.
I wish we could see a replica of each produced. I think the PRR T1 is cool, but I wish that group had chosen one of the NYC engines instead when they started building a reproduction.
@B Wallace 3001 being preserved today is actually not an accident. It was sold to the T&P to replace an engine on display that had been scrapped due to some external damage.
@@josephmeador493 And that is exactly what that comment meant. If T&P had never bought it to replace a heavily vandalized loco that they had placed on display. So yes it was by accident if that never happened it would have been gone if NYC never sold it to them. NYC had no intentions of preserving anything in fact they wanted everything scrapped. I have read that there were inquiries from lineside towns and other organization about acquiring a Hudson or Niagara but Pearlman wanted everything scrapped. The only reason that there is another Mohawk in St.Louis is because it was being used as a Stationary Boiler at a NYC location until the early 60's. And by then Perlman was gone.
I was able to observe and photograph NYC's Niagaras when they were still in regular service; they had a severe appearance, but their performance was outstanding. A retired NYC engineer told me that when he was a fireman on a Niagara pulling a freight train that the engineer took the train up to 115 miles per hour--at night!!
To any and all who read this comment, I can safely confirm the Danbury Railroad Museum succeeded in saving 100 and 278 and they've begun the long job of restoring them as we speak. LONG LIVE NYC STEAM AND ELECTRIC POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That horsepower is absolutely staggering. Imagine having more horsepower than an AC6000CW or SD90MAC-H, but it's a 2-cylinder steam engine in the 1940s. Big Boy having that much power, yeah that makes sense for something so enormous. But this thing was SMALLER than everyone else's Northerns due to NYC's unusually tight clearances, yet it's like 1,000hp more powerful than most of them. What a monster.
@@ironmatic1 Well the diesels can't put that power down at 85 either. As they used to say during dieselization, steam can pull a train it can't start, and diesel can start a train it can't pull. A Niagara (or any Northern) would be a terrible terrible choice for any kind of slow drag freight on steep grades.
@@JETZcorp right though it does depend on gearing for the type of things a diesle can do, great starting power but its starts to act like a generator and fights itself after a certain point, steam though will just keep ticking off the wheel speed till it throws itself apart or runs out of steam feeding it, and has all that foot pounds that can go at once which would cause a wheelslip and thats bad on the rails, can derail the train or damage the drive gear, and the harder steam goes the more power it generates and more thermal energy into the steam meaning more expantion with lower volume and more work with that volume can be done so the valves cut off earlier to use more of that thermal expantion, steam though somewhat labor intensive has proved that it can do the job and do it in the modern era if you look at what livio dante porta did in argentina and did it in some of the most remote and inhospitable work environs in the world in patagonia and on really bad coal, but the machines have to be very sciantific and modern advances maintained and understood as well as thermaldynamics, but the beauty of steam is that if it can make heat it could be used, woor, oil, coal, biomass, maybe even hydrogen to burn and heat the water and steam, and higher pressure to the point of ultra critical which is basicly I read is the end all of steam power where the steam or what remians of it is in a fluid catigory of its own, though making a steamer like that would be prohibitivly expensive and heavy not to mention problably would not take the abuses of railroading, but even today think about it most power is not from wind or soler its from combustion powered turbines or boiled water steam from coal or waste burned or, nuclear where the heat from the reaction is used to turn and superheat the water to spin the turbine to make power or in some experamental cases rotery expantion engines, think like a wankle type engine of sorts thats a rotery expander .
As much as I hate to admit it, that’s a slightly misleading estimate. That nearly 6,700 HP was measured at the cylinders, the actual rating at the drawbar was closer to 5,100 HP, which put them on par with the J’s and about 1,000 HP _less_ than the T1’s. A slight detriment to being such a free steaming design, and the S-2 had it slightly worse since the intake of the cylinders was smaller. So while it could use steam more efficiently than an S-1, it could use that steam as readily either
The reason for the resurgence of Steam during WW2 is that a lot of the Diesel production was used for powering submarines, Destroyer Escorts, other smaller ships, boats and crafts (including the all important Landing Craft and some Landing Ships). Plus large Diesel Electric systems were vital for supply power in the forward areas, and for support areas behind the lines! (Most of the world uses 250 volt, 50 Hertz power grid and the US uses 120 or 240 volt (for the most part) at 60 Hertz....)
In the 50s and70s most of the world used 220v or 440v for power equipment i.e: electric iron, heavy electric motors etc @ 50 cycles/Htz. I got hit by 440v once, you heard of bitch slap? LOL! It was like several bitches slapping you at the same time HARD. I wonder if ringing in my years for past two decades has anything to do with it? I sailed for five years around the world and never had to worry about the equipment I used until I came to USA and parts of South America. Had to buy new equipment and or use step up transformer for the antique radio, ended up selling it.
I never knew that there were two NYC electrics in my state! And to help the effort to save the locomotives, I donated $15.00 to the NYCS Electrics fund.
I love the big "elephant ear" smoke deflectors on the Niagaras; it makes them stand out in a class of locomotives that has some pretty stiff aesthetic competition: UP's 800 class, and--of course--SP's 4400 series.
Great video on the Niagara’s! I hope someone builds a new one someday in the same way as PRR 5550! Also, I’m happy to say that the S-Motor #6000 and T-Motor #278 have been saved from the scrapper’s torch and moved to the Danbury Railway Museum for restoration!
You can't compare steam locomotives as if they were cars. The 16' 4" N&W J could not run on a line with 15'3"clearances. The J was designed to pull heavy trains in mountainous terrain, the Niagra was built for speed.
You can't compare cars either. They're all made for different thing. Toyota? Made for super reliability, but even at my age no second date. Other cars, bad transmissions, great back seats.
Great video as always Brian! Love the Niagara’s, such beautiful beasts, and so damn efficient! And thanks for helping to put out the word for Danbury, I’ve spent countless hours at the museum and have donated several times to support them. I can’t wait to see the S and T motors at the museum once they raise the money (assuming they do), they will be at a wonderful home in the yard at Danbury. Appreciate the content as always and Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays!!
Makes you wonder why the current new build project is for a duplex - which to my British eyes seems a far inferior locomotive to a Niagara? But maybe they’ll do what the guys who built Tornado are doing with the P2, and do a Niagara for their next project.
Love the videos, keep them coming. First video I watched was your newest Duplex video, you are much more educational and mature compared to over half the other railroad history channels.
The Niagara are my favorite locomotive, sadly they aren’t around anymore However I believe At least at least 4 or 5 Hudson’s and Niagara should’ve been preserved The Niagara’s and the N&w J's are most likely the best of the 4-8-4 Wheel Arrangement
Praying you guys can save those electrics, and then when refurbished, run every school kid to the museum to witness the power and glory of those wonderful inventions.
I love the NYC Niagaras so much so I got the Lionel visionline Niagara from a few years back and even herron rail NYC DVD's that have NYC Niagaras in them (like NYC Reflections volume 1 and 2, Niagaras last stand, steam and diesel on the NYC) and some of those niagaras do make an apperance in I think 1 or 2 herron rail PRR videos.
A really interesting and cool looking locomotive. I got a Williams 0-scale niagara one birthday which might have been my all time best present. I love the look of the smoke deflectors too.
In the flat lands, yes, but in the mountains, the J is the best mainline steam locomotive, given that the two were designed for the specific running. While I do find the Niagara a bit overrated and think the J is overall better (even if only very slightly), I still don't deny the Niagara was a top tier design. That said, I even question myself that if there even is a "best" steam locomotive since they were designed for different jobs and terrains and many performed admirably. Aside from the Js and Niagaras, the FEFs, the last 5 Greenbriers and AT&SF 2900s are also great examples of steamers that performed amazingly. Also, there are a lot of 4-8-4s that have more tractive effort than the Niagara: The UP FEFs, C&O Greenbriers, SP GS 4-8-4s, AT&SF's 4-8-4s, even the MILW S3 has more tractive effort than the Niagara, and the list still goes on.
Water scoops? Track pans?! How the hell did I not know about this, that's awesome. Just found this channel, the youtube algorithm has decided I am gonna learn about trains the next two weeks.
In the future if you haven’t already, could you please make a video on the Lima Locomotive Works, 2-6-6-6 type “Allegheny Class”? They are MAAAASSSSIIIIVVVEEEE. There’s one on display in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan, and I still can’t comprehend just how big the smallest parts on this thing was.
The NYC Niagara was an interesting & impressive type of 4-8-4 by measurement of performance operation data, I like the smoke deflectors and the centipede style tenders on the locomotives. It's a shame that none of the Niagara engines were saved for preservation to be placed on display inside a museum for future railfans to observe.
Another thing I'd like to point out is the J, when compared to a set of 2 EMD E6s between 1945-1947, the J came out as less expensive to maintain and operate overall, costing around 30% less to maintain. The J even beat the E6 in availability and utilization by slight margins. So if anything, the J came the closest to beating the diesel. That too is why IMO, the J is the best 4-8-4.
The problem is that the J wasn't "beating the diesel", it was beating the E3/E6. By the time of Kiefer's test, the Niagara was hard-pressed to beat two E7s... and was dominated by three. Then along came the E8 and it was game over for passenger work... Even in 1939, the diesel 'competition' for a locomotive with 6000+ihp was the Baldwin Essl modular locomotive, with eight 750hp V-8 gensets each driving its own axle. Cost too much without GMAC-style financing and incentives... which, truth to tell, was a shame...
It’s sad that people are more concerned of getting only a small amount for scrap value instead of preserving the history that got us where we are today
@@michigandon In his defense he was doing everything he could to save his company. However if(idk if this happened or not) a museum ever gave him an offer greater than scrap value and he rejected it my opinion would change.
Very nice video! Concerning the 4-8-4 type, the NYC's Niagaras were certainly very good but I'm partial to the Santa Fe's 2900 class (numbers 2900-2929).
Interesting point about all the coal and water infrastructure vs diesel infrastructure and the effects of cold on the internal locomotive workings. However regarding diesels, water collects in the cylinders of cold locomotives and has to be vented by manually cranking the engine before starting. On older locos this was done by manually cranking the engine. I don’t know what you do if this water has frozen.
The problem of hydraulic lock is handled the same way as the coolant (which isn't antifreeze!): you/'d leave the 567s idling. Later you'd use something like a Kim Hotstart to keep the oil and coolant warm, so the cylinders would stay warm. With the relief valves open, you bar the engine over one full revolution to ensure no cylinder is hydrolocked and ice would behave similar to water during that test. Note that any ice that clears will melt very quickly with compression once the relief valves are shut, and the water would probably drain into the airbox when the scavenge ports are opened...
There is a live steam Niagara that runs at the Stapleford Miniature Rwy. in England, plus I understand 2 more live steam Niagaras exist as well. Not the same as a full size one but as close as we can come.
fun fact: the new york central railway was not the only one to use the name niaraga for its 4-8-4 the national railways of mexico also used that name for its 4-8-4 locomotives
A stellar video, and wonderful segawy to the Danbury's cause. The contents of the trials intrigued me, as I didn't know the Niagaras were too heavy to run along the NYC's Big Four route to St. Louis. I thought their lightweight would've given them an advantage but I guess not in that regard. Rare win for the PRR and their T1's in that regard. Also gotta give an honorary mention to 5500 in the trials too. I know it would've had the worst availibility figures, but it stood decently with the regular Niagaras.
Niagaras and yes, even the 5500 did run on the Big Four - My dad was a engineman first firing and later operating on the BF, the locomotive entries are in his log book. I don't believe Mr Gerbracht would have made this error in his book but if so, my correction is kindly noted.
Keep in mind that the 5550 was heavier, due to the added weight of the Franklin type A gear. A guide for how fast things changed in the late Forties is that, in Kiefer's review of motive power linked here, they carefully discuss the design details on the 5550, and note that they'll report performance in a subsequent addendum. They never did so. LeMassena had an article on the Niagaras in Trains Magazine in the 1980s, which discussed quite a bit about the design of the poppet-valve Niagara but never came out clearly and said the engine was designed to make comparable power to the piston-valve S1s ... not "moar power" as was so often a supposed goal of poppet-valve utilization... at much more economical fuel and water consumption. That goal was apparently fully borne out, but (as with so many 'thermodynamic improvements', it didn't pay its way or give desired road reliability.
A couple observations: UP 844, built also by ALCO, is probably the closest example preserved today of what a Niagara looked like, with big drivers and smoke deflectors. I think N&W in the mid 1950's, put up their biggest and best steamers, the Y's and A's against some EMD, 4 unit F locomotives. The diesels barely beat the steamers in maintenance , efficiency and sheer pulling power. The margins were so close, due to N&W's expert practices of running steamers, that they decided to tell EMD to take a walk and keep going. IMHO, the N&W J class, was the finest passenger steam locomotive ever built..
I fully agree, the N&W Js were phenomenal locomotives. The N&W J actually beat the EMD E6 in every aspect except for lubrication costs when compared in the mid to late 1940s. It even had a higher availability and utilization by small margins in the same comparison. When the comparison ended, it showed the J to be roughly 30% less expensive to maintain than the E6.
Would be if it had. The actual non-propaganda speed was in the 125mph range (as Gresley agreed); the 126.1 is at best an artifact in the dynamometer (look at the trace on either side of that peak and you'll see). The actual Concorde moment is the German BR 05, which had the over-the-top engineering characteristic of the SST (and some of the same disregard for practicality). The A4 on the other hand was a perfectly fine express locomotive at normal speeds (and with the big-end improvement one could probably have teached the 130mph speed Duddington thought she could)
@@wizlish A4’s ran over 100 mph regularly and reliably. Emergency braking in the record run caused the damage. They should have waited for a better time..
@@stephenpage-murray7226 if only they did have another opportunity. There was only one shot due to World War Two happening soon after. It would have been better also if the used a new-out-of-the-works engine, as Silver Link performed the best out of any a4 for a while when she was put on the first train. Really that was the highest point of the A4s. Going 112 without trying and being smooth showed that setting up and tuning every part to be in prime condition was undervalued. With a double Klychap blast pipe, Silver Link would have went near 130 that day if trying, and probably faster if it had roller bearings on all of the trains axles. The Achilles heal of the Gresley valve gear (and really all congugatef gear) is that wear in the bearings significantly affected timing. Roller bearings solve that, like on the UP’s 4-12-2. One thing that I’m surprised Gresley didn’t do was a modification that Australia did. Instead of angling the middle cylinder to clear the front axle, which slightly throws off the valve timing, the Australians just put a crank on the front axle, which is the simpler, better solution.
You should do a video on Andre Chapelon's 242a1, a french 4-8-4. Chapelon also helped invent the Niagara's exhaust, the Kylchap, though while the Niagara's had one ejector, the 242a1 had three
This might be nitpicking, but the J was not the only 4-8-4 with higher tractive effort that the Niagara. With around 61,000 pounds of tractive effort, they were closer to average than exceptional in pulling power, but more than made up for that with their performance. Still great work though. Kudos
In all fairness, the J has 70" drivers, and is only high-performing due to the genius of Voyce Glaze in balancing. PRR tested one up to over 110mph, but noted that to do serious express work rather than just 'dash' capability, the engine would benefit from higher drivers -- they recommended the 80" standard, which was effectively what the production Niagaras were built with). The J ran out of valve tribology rather smartly at 112-114mph, with peak machinery speed rising as superheat went higher than the tolerance of the steam oil used; neither of those issues would have set in at that speed with higher drivers.
@@wizlish The J suffered no mechanical ill effects from running at 110 mph even though the rotational speed exceeded the AAR recommended upper limit. The lubrication issue could be dealt with and though steam locomotive lubrication remained less than fully developed, once it is appreciated that it is the temperature of the rubbing surface which is key this opens a door to further improvement. These locomotives were relatively high performing for a number of reasons but compared with the world best practice they had poor power to weight ratios. No US steam locomotive could maintain 40 ihp per ton of locomotive weight, designers concentrated too much on evaporation and not enough on specific steam consumption though it must be said that they were good at mechanical design.
So the diesels got to run in the good weather. The steam had to run on short fuel in the worst weather. Well done NYC. The sad fact is the maintenance requirements of steam were just too much.
i may just be dumb but i feel like i missed the names of the two locos at the end that they are trying to rescue anyone could help me with the model names and such?
The Niagaras are easily the best NYC locomotives built in terms of reliability and versatility. They may not be the most iconic or popular but I think they deserve the title of the ultimate steam locomotives! I mean, they could manage 6,680 (indicated) horsepower, accelerate to 90 mph with a twenty-car passenger train within two minutes, and even was rumored to be capable of 120 mph!
No SNCF engine was as powerful - much impressive on power to weight. The US engines were amazing for engineering - roller bearings, cast frames (which were heavy, but they needed to be to handle 6500 hp at the cylinders) and welded boilers etc. The most powerful European express engine was the Chapelon 4-8-4, which had 5300 hp at the cylinders, 4400 at the drawbar from a 53 sq ft grate weighing 148 tons locomotive (and 70 ton tender).
What is the size of your lay out ? The reason that I am asking is ,I have a three car tandem garage and I can't decide if I want to model O gauge or HO ,. I am leaning towards O gauge . Your input would be greatly appreciated .
I saw UP844 blazing through Hallsville Texas back in 2012, it had to be doing at least 75, possibly even 80mph.... Steam trains are way up there in bad-assery
Trainz Content!
NYC S1a Niagara- K&L Trainz
NYC J3a (w/ Dreyfuss) - K&L Trainz
NYC E7 - Trainz Forge
NYC Pax Rolling Stock - K&L Trainz, Trainz Forge
Assorted equipment - Trainz Forge, K&L Trainz, Jointed Rail, The Download Station
Appalachian ROW 1950s - Trainz Forge
Indiana Western 1970s - DLS; BBarnes005
Dry Brook & Esopus Valley; Jointed Rail
If I win the lottery I'll go save those locomotives and build you a whole another Niagara locomotive promise it's unlikely I will ever win though
Is winning the lottery enough money to build a steam engine
@@TrainBandit depends on which one I win if I ever do
If only they were new bulit!..
whats the music at 4:05? its not any of the songs in the description as far as I can tell.
My favorite bit of Niagara flexing on its competitors was when they took one out for like a publicity campaign and decided to stop the engine, tie some ropes to the front end and have 4 or 5 supermodels pull the engine to demonstrate how good its bearings were and how balanced the engine was. I wish we would have preserved at least one of these great engines
Sounds like the Timken 1111 "four aces"; so that was a Niagara?
@@jimblake3574 no that was a different engine all together, I think they have a video about that on this channel too
Reminds me of when a Toyota pickup truck was used to tow the Space Shuttle Endeavour by itself when Endeavour was being moved to a museum. Great publicity for Toyota.
Both the Niagara and the Timken locomotive were 'shown off' to the press and public being pulled by attractive women. (I believe there are RUclips clips of both).
That said, I've always had a bit of a suspicion that the valve- and piston-ring lubrication would pose a substantial drag, especially with the engine cold, so there might have been some strategic 'preparation' to make the show possible.
Both the Niagara and the Timken locomotive were 'shown off' to the press and public being pulled by attractive women. (I believe there are RUclips clips of both).
That said, I've always had a bit of a suspicion that the valve- and piston-ring lubrication would pose a substantial drag, especially with the engine cold, so there might have been some strategic 'preparation' to make the show possible.
As a certified nyc foamer, I can confirm.
Also based, I’ve donated to the Danbury rail museum S and T motor preservation before, 1000% worth the cause and I highly reccomend doing it
Those motors are pieces of history
Thanks for that!
Just donated a small sum myself.
I would really love to see these old electrics be preserved, especially since so little of the Central remains today compared to other railroads.
@@_chan.burn.21_ yeah, it’s really upsetting to see so little preserved
wow kingzlo
@@MiddletownBranchProd. omg
In the words of Alfred E. Perlman himself: “I want. That. Steam. ENGINE!!!!!!” (sound of buzzing chainsaw)
History in the dark reference. Noice. *BRRRRRZZXT*
What’s a steam engine?
Barry, I SWEAR TO YOU THAT IF YOU SAY "WhAt'S a StEaM EnGiNe?" ONE MOREMTIME I WILL KILL YOU!
History in the dark hahahaha
Barry!!!!
The lack of a preserved Niagara or Hudson is nothing short of a national tragedy.
I’m glad to see a renewed focus on preservation. We can, and will, do better to preserve our railroading and engineering history.
When the NYC started selling their Hudsons off for scrap they received the whopping sum of $10,077 each to Luria Bros Scrap even though many communities and other organizations wished to have one donated or they even might have bought them Perlman wanted all Steam Locos scrapped as they were from the past and not the new modern NYC. The fact that their are 2 Mohawks still around is purely by accident.
@@bwallace5945 The Perlman and preservation info in this post is 100% bullshit
I wish we could see a replica of each produced. I think the PRR T1 is cool, but I wish that group had chosen one of the NYC engines instead when they started building a reproduction.
@B Wallace 3001 being preserved today is actually not an accident. It was sold to the T&P to replace an engine on display that had been scrapped due to some external damage.
@@josephmeador493 And that is exactly what that comment meant. If T&P had never bought it to replace a heavily vandalized loco that they had placed on display. So yes it was by accident if that never happened it would have been gone if NYC never sold it to them. NYC had no intentions of preserving anything in fact they wanted everything scrapped. I have read that there were inquiries from lineside towns and other organization about acquiring a Hudson or Niagara but Pearlman wanted everything scrapped. The only reason that there is another Mohawk in St.Louis is because it was being used as a Stationary Boiler at a NYC location until the early 60's. And by then Perlman was gone.
I was able to observe and photograph NYC's Niagaras when they were still in regular service; they had a severe appearance, but their performance was outstanding. A retired NYC engineer told me that when he was a fireman on a Niagara pulling a freight train that the engineer took the train up to 115 miles per hour--at night!!
While I prefer the J’s, I gotta admit the Niagaras are pretty great designs too.
In terms of HP, the Niagara hits the ball out of the park.
I'm with you and reckon that overall, the Js were better (and better looking) with both being at the pinnacle of US steam development.
Look up a picture of the Js without their streamlining. They are chunky and beautiful monsters
@@Zimmzamm I prefer the Streamlining, but even Un-Streamlined, the J’s looked great.
To any and all who read this comment, I can safely confirm the Danbury Railroad Museum succeeded in saving 100 and 278 and they've begun the long job of restoring them as we speak. LONG LIVE NYC STEAM AND ELECTRIC POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I shared this video on my social media pages. I also didnt skip ads for this video. I really appreciate you supporting the rare NYC electrics!
Thanks for sharing!!
That horsepower is absolutely staggering. Imagine having more horsepower than an AC6000CW or SD90MAC-H, but it's a 2-cylinder steam engine in the 1940s. Big Boy having that much power, yeah that makes sense for something so enormous. But this thing was SMALLER than everyone else's Northerns due to NYC's unusually tight clearances, yet it's like 1,000hp more powerful than most of them. What a monster.
it can’t put down that power at 12 mph, the diesel can, so that’s always a bad comparison
@@ironmatic1 Well the diesels can't put that power down at 85 either. As they used to say during dieselization, steam can pull a train it can't start, and diesel can start a train it can't pull. A Niagara (or any Northern) would be a terrible terrible choice for any kind of slow drag freight on steep grades.
@@JETZcorp right though it does depend on gearing for the type of things a diesle can do, great starting power but its starts to act like a generator and fights itself after a certain point, steam though will just keep ticking off the wheel speed till it throws itself apart or runs out of steam feeding it, and has all that foot pounds that can go at once which would cause a wheelslip and thats bad on the rails, can derail the train or damage the drive gear, and the harder steam goes the more power it generates and more thermal energy into the steam meaning more expantion with lower volume and more work with that volume can be done so the valves cut off earlier to use more of that thermal expantion, steam though somewhat labor intensive has proved that it can do the job and do it in the modern era if you look at what livio dante porta did in argentina and did it in some of the most remote and inhospitable work environs in the world in patagonia and on really bad coal, but the machines have to be very sciantific and modern advances maintained and understood as well as thermaldynamics, but the beauty of steam is that if it can make heat it could be used, woor, oil, coal, biomass, maybe even hydrogen to burn and heat the water and steam, and higher pressure to the point of ultra critical which is basicly I read is the end all of steam power where the steam or what remians of it is in a fluid catigory of its own, though making a steamer like that would be prohibitivly expensive and heavy not to mention problably would not take the abuses of railroading, but even today think about it most power is not from wind or soler its from combustion powered turbines or boiled water steam from coal or waste burned or, nuclear where the heat from the reaction is used to turn and superheat the water to spin the turbine to make power or in some experamental cases rotery expantion engines, think like a wankle type engine of sorts thats a rotery expander .
Chapeleon's modified 242A1 had 5300 indicated HP and 292 kN in tractive effort. This at a an axle load of 21 metric tons.
As much as I hate to admit it, that’s a slightly misleading estimate. That nearly 6,700 HP was measured at the cylinders, the actual rating at the drawbar was closer to 5,100 HP, which put them on par with the J’s and about 1,000 HP _less_ than the T1’s. A slight detriment to being such a free steaming design, and the S-2 had it slightly worse since the intake of the cylinders was smaller. So while it could use steam more efficiently than an S-1, it could use that steam as readily either
The reason for the resurgence of Steam during WW2 is that a lot of the Diesel production was used for powering submarines, Destroyer Escorts, other smaller ships, boats and crafts (including the all important Landing Craft and some Landing Ships). Plus large Diesel Electric systems were vital for supply power in the forward areas, and for support areas behind the lines! (Most of the world uses 250 volt, 50 Hertz power grid and the US uses 120 or 240 volt (for the most part) at 60 Hertz....)
A very astute point of view. Good man :)
In the 50s and70s most of the world used 220v or 440v for power equipment i.e: electric iron, heavy electric motors etc @ 50 cycles/Htz. I got hit by 440v once, you heard of bitch slap? LOL! It was like several bitches slapping you at the same time HARD. I wonder if ringing in my years for past two decades has anything to do with it? I sailed for five years around the world and never had to worry about the equipment I used until I came to USA and parts of South America. Had to buy new equipment and or use step up transformer for the antique radio, ended up selling it.
I never knew that there were two NYC electrics in my state! And to help the effort to save the locomotives, I donated $15.00 to the NYCS Electrics fund.
Thanks so much!
@@HighIron We cannot save every engine from being scrapped, but we can most certainly try!
This channel hasn't uploaded in forever 🫤
I love the big "elephant ear" smoke deflectors on the Niagaras; it makes them stand out in a class of locomotives that has some pretty stiff aesthetic competition: UP's 800 class, and--of course--SP's 4400 series.
Love the Danbury Railway Museum! Visited a few years ago with my dad, can't wait to go again.
Great video on the Niagara’s! I hope someone builds a new one someday in the same way as PRR 5550! Also, I’m happy to say that the S-Motor #6000 and T-Motor #278 have been saved from the scrapper’s torch and moved to the Danbury Railway Museum for restoration!
When you mentioned those old engines that had a fundraiser going i immediately googled them up and i am glad to see that they made it to the museum
You can't compare steam locomotives as if they were cars. The 16' 4" N&W J could not run on a line with 15'3"clearances. The J was designed to pull heavy trains in mountainous terrain, the Niagra was built for speed.
I thought the J's were 16'0"
@@joemalone6923 They are just 16'. Still too tall for NYC tracks but still very good locomotives as a whole
@@09JDCTrainMan That's true
You can't compare cars either. They're all made for different thing. Toyota? Made for super reliability, but even at my age no second date. Other cars, bad transmissions, great back seats.
Happy to report the Two electrics are now off the property and on their way to Danbury
Hell yeah
Great video as always Brian! Love the Niagara’s, such beautiful beasts, and so damn efficient! And thanks for helping to put out the word for Danbury, I’ve spent countless hours at the museum and have donated several times to support them. I can’t wait to see the S and T motors at the museum once they raise the money (assuming they do), they will be at a wonderful home in the yard at Danbury. Appreciate the content as always and Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays!!
I donated $10 to the effort. Those two electric locomotives have not come this far to die now.
Good for you.
Great job as always guys!
Such a pity none survived. It'd be great if a group started a new-build project for one in the future.
Makes you wonder why the current new build project is for a duplex - which to my British eyes seems a far inferior locomotive to a Niagara? But maybe they’ll do what the guys who built Tornado are doing with the P2, and do a Niagara for their next project.
@@robinforrest7680 It's my hope for that, along with the NYC 4-6-4 Hudson.
@@robinforrest7680 Anything is possible with proper funding and time/effort.
Love the videos, keep them coming. First video I watched was your newest Duplex video, you are much more educational and mature compared to over half the other railroad history channels.
I wish we didn't abandon steam so soon, the Niagara was just a taste of what could have been.
The Niagara are my favorite locomotive, sadly they aren’t around anymore
However I believe At least at least 4 or 5 Hudson’s and Niagara should’ve been preserved
The Niagara’s and the N&w J's are most likely the best of the 4-8-4 Wheel Arrangement
But it has to be added that the 1948 'second rebuilding' of the C&NW H class produced something very, very good...
Wish I could donate to the museum but wish them the best and hope they get those rare pieces out of there and preserved
Praying you guys can save those electrics, and then when refurbished, run every school kid to the museum to witness the power and glory of those wonderful inventions.
Love the Niagara. Donated to the museum, great cause, would hate to see those engines scrapped
I love the NYC Niagaras so much so I got the Lionel visionline Niagara from a few years back and even herron rail NYC DVD's that have NYC Niagaras in them (like NYC Reflections volume 1 and 2, Niagaras last stand, steam and diesel on the NYC) and some of those niagaras do make an apperance in I think 1 or 2 herron rail PRR videos.
Wonder if we could get our double drop out there with tracks mounted and winch that loco up on it?
A really interesting and cool looking locomotive. I got a Williams 0-scale niagara one birthday which might have been my all time best present. I love the look of the smoke deflectors too.
In the flat lands, yes, but in the mountains, the J is the best mainline steam locomotive, given that the two were designed for the specific running. While I do find the Niagara a bit overrated and think the J is overall better (even if only very slightly), I still don't deny the Niagara was a top tier design. That said, I even question myself that if there even is a "best" steam locomotive since they were designed for different jobs and terrains and many performed admirably. Aside from the Js and Niagaras, the FEFs, the last 5 Greenbriers and AT&SF 2900s are also great examples of steamers that performed amazingly.
Also, there are a lot of 4-8-4s that have more tractive effort than the Niagara: The UP FEFs, C&O Greenbriers, SP GS 4-8-4s, AT&SF's 4-8-4s, even the MILW S3 has more tractive effort than the Niagara, and the list still goes on.
also the AT&SF 2900 Class were in that conversation
Nobody boiled water like the N&W.
Well said. I've always believed that the Niagara was the best steam engine ever built in North America. Pity that none survive.
Water scoops? Track pans?! How the hell did I not know about this, that's awesome. Just found this channel, the youtube algorithm has decided I am gonna learn about trains the next two weeks.
Thanks you so much! I love the S motor and T motor, I live near them and I’ve seen them, please consider donating guys!!!
"Babe wake up, a new High Iron video!"
Awesome!!!! I was just dreaming about trains
In the future if you haven’t already, could you please make a video on the Lima Locomotive Works, 2-6-6-6 type “Allegheny Class”? They are MAAAASSSSIIIIVVVEEEE. There’s one on display in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan, and I still can’t comprehend just how big the smallest parts on this thing was.
The NYC Niagara was an interesting & impressive type of 4-8-4 by measurement of performance operation data, I like the smoke deflectors and the centipede style tenders on the locomotives. It's a shame that none of the Niagara engines were saved for preservation to be placed on display inside a museum for future railfans to observe.
Very interesting. Such pretty locomotives...and almost all of them scrapped now. What a shame.
Good video. Thumbs up! :)
Another thing I'd like to point out is the J, when compared to a set of 2 EMD E6s between 1945-1947, the J came out as less expensive to maintain and operate overall, costing around 30% less to maintain. The J even beat the E6 in availability and utilization by slight margins. So if anything, the J came the closest to beating the diesel. That too is why IMO, the J is the best 4-8-4.
The J class is one of my favorite locomotives. The Niagaras were my second favorite
@@joemalone6923 The J is my favorite 4-8-4. My 2nd favorite 4-8-4 say is either 614 or 4449.
@@09JDCTrainMan I also like 4449 and 844
The problem is that the J wasn't "beating the diesel", it was beating the E3/E6. By the time of Kiefer's test, the Niagara was hard-pressed to beat two E7s... and was dominated by three. Then along came the E8 and it was game over for passenger work...
Even in 1939, the diesel 'competition' for a locomotive with 6000+ihp was the Baldwin Essl modular locomotive, with eight 750hp V-8 gensets each driving its own axle. Cost too much without GMAC-style financing and incentives... which, truth to tell, was a shame...
@@wizlish Yeah, even as good as the J and Niagara was, the diesel is just simply superior
It’s sad that people are more concerned of getting only a small amount for scrap value instead of preserving the history that got us where we are today
Perlman couldn't erase steam (and steams memory) fast enough!
@@michigandon In his defense he was doing everything he could to save his company. However if(idk if this happened or not) a museum ever gave him an offer greater than scrap value and he rejected it my opinion would change.
Very nice video! Concerning the 4-8-4 type, the NYC's Niagaras were certainly very good but I'm partial to the Santa Fe's 2900 class (numbers 2900-2929).
Thanks for watching!
The one in NM should be in operational condition by now
Me being an ACL boy, it's the R-1 for me.
@@joeman1437 And it's a Travesty of Justice that none of THOSE were saved, also. :(
@@michigandon Agreed my friend, agreed
Interesting point about all the coal and water infrastructure vs diesel infrastructure and the effects of cold on the internal locomotive workings.
However regarding diesels, water collects in the cylinders of cold locomotives and has to be vented by manually cranking the engine before starting. On older locos this was done by manually cranking the engine. I don’t know what you do if this water has frozen.
The problem of hydraulic lock is handled the same way as the coolant (which isn't antifreeze!): you/'d leave the 567s idling. Later you'd use something like a Kim Hotstart to keep the oil and coolant warm, so the cylinders would stay warm. With the relief valves open, you bar the engine over one full revolution to ensure no cylinder is hydrolocked and ice would behave similar to water during that test. Note that any ice that clears will melt very quickly with compression once the relief valves are shut, and the water would probably drain into the airbox when the scavenge ports are opened...
There is a live steam Niagara that runs at the Stapleford Miniature Rwy. in England, plus I understand 2 more live steam Niagaras exist as well. Not the same as a full size one but as close as we can come.
@ 7:52 Pronounced Matt-tune from a native Mattooner thanks, great job.
Duly noted. :P
fun fact:
the new york central railway was not the only one to use the name niaraga for its 4-8-4 the national railways of mexico also used that name for its 4-8-4 locomotives
A stellar video, and wonderful segawy to the Danbury's cause. The contents of the trials intrigued me, as I didn't know the Niagaras were too heavy to run along the NYC's Big Four route to St. Louis. I thought their lightweight would've given them an advantage but I guess not in that regard. Rare win for the PRR and their T1's in that regard.
Also gotta give an honorary mention to 5500 in the trials too. I know it would've had the worst availibility figures, but it stood decently with the regular Niagaras.
Niagaras and yes, even the 5500 did run on the Big Four - My dad was a engineman first firing and later operating on the BF, the locomotive entries are in his log book. I don't believe Mr Gerbracht would have made this error in his book but if so, my correction is kindly noted.
Keep in mind that the 5550 was heavier, due to the added weight of the Franklin type A gear.
A guide for how fast things changed in the late Forties is that, in Kiefer's review of motive power linked here, they carefully discuss the design details on the 5550, and note that they'll report performance in a subsequent addendum. They never did so.
LeMassena had an article on the Niagaras in Trains Magazine in the 1980s, which discussed quite a bit about the design of the poppet-valve Niagara but never came out clearly and said the engine was designed to make comparable power to the piston-valve S1s ... not "moar power" as was so often a supposed goal of poppet-valve utilization... at much more economical fuel and water consumption. That goal was apparently fully borne out, but (as with so many 'thermodynamic improvements', it didn't pay its way or give desired road reliability.
The Niagaras just look so absolutely incredible!
A couple observations:
UP 844, built also by ALCO, is probably the closest example preserved today of what a Niagara looked like, with big drivers and smoke deflectors.
I think N&W in the mid 1950's, put up their biggest and best steamers, the Y's and A's against some EMD, 4 unit F locomotives.
The diesels barely beat the steamers in maintenance , efficiency and sheer pulling power.
The margins were so close, due to N&W's expert practices of running steamers, that they decided to tell EMD to take a walk and keep going.
IMHO, the N&W J class, was the finest passenger steam locomotive ever built..
I fully agree, the N&W Js were phenomenal locomotives. The N&W J actually beat the EMD E6 in every aspect except for lubrication costs when compared in the mid to late 1940s. It even had a higher availability and utilization by small margins in the same comparison. When the comparison ended, it showed the J to be roughly 30% less expensive to maintain than the E6.
The FEF-3s are actually what the Niagaras were based off of, just with giant boilers and a full foot shorter.
Perhaps I'm biased, because I'm a Buffalonian, but, I absolutely adore the Niagaras.
Go Bills.
Idk how I’ve never come across this channel. Waiting for this guy to blow up. Very good content
This video cured my boredom for the day
Surely the Concorde moment for steam traction was Mallard doing 126mph?
It broke the steam barrier
Would be if it had. The actual non-propaganda speed was in the 125mph range (as Gresley agreed); the 126.1 is at best an artifact in the dynamometer (look at the trace on either side of that peak and you'll see). The actual Concorde moment is the German BR 05, which had the over-the-top engineering characteristic of the SST (and some of the same disregard for practicality). The A4 on the other hand was a perfectly fine express locomotive at normal speeds (and with the big-end improvement one could probably have teached the 130mph speed Duddington thought she could)
@@wizlish
A4’s ran over 100 mph regularly and reliably. Emergency braking in the record run caused the damage. They should have waited for a better time..
@@stephenpage-murray7226 if only they did have another opportunity. There was only one shot due to World War Two happening soon after. It would have been better also if the used a new-out-of-the-works engine, as Silver Link performed the best out of any a4 for a while when she was put on the first train. Really that was the highest point of the A4s. Going 112 without trying and being smooth showed that setting up and tuning every part to be in prime condition was undervalued. With a double Klychap blast pipe, Silver Link would have went near 130 that day if trying, and probably faster if it had roller bearings on all of the trains axles. The Achilles heal of the Gresley valve gear (and really all congugatef gear) is that wear in the bearings significantly affected timing. Roller bearings solve that, like on the UP’s 4-12-2. One thing that I’m surprised Gresley didn’t do was a modification that Australia did. Instead of angling the middle cylinder to clear the front axle, which slightly throws off the valve timing, the Australians just put a crank on the front axle, which is the simpler, better solution.
You should do a video on Andre Chapelon's 242a1, a french 4-8-4. Chapelon also helped invent the Niagara's exhaust, the Kylchap, though while the Niagara's had one ejector, the 242a1 had three
I hope the locomotives are well preserved and looked after for well into the future.
Come back High Iron, I just subscribed and I need more
This might be nitpicking, but the J was not the only 4-8-4 with higher tractive effort that the Niagara. With around 61,000 pounds of tractive effort, they were closer to average than exceptional in pulling power, but more than made up for that with their performance. Still great work though.
Kudos
In all fairness, the J has 70" drivers, and is only high-performing due to the genius of Voyce Glaze in balancing. PRR tested one up to over 110mph, but noted that to do serious express work rather than just 'dash' capability, the engine would benefit from higher drivers -- they recommended the 80" standard, which was effectively what the production Niagaras were built with). The J ran out of valve tribology rather smartly at 112-114mph, with peak machinery speed rising as superheat went higher than the tolerance of the steam oil used; neither of those issues would have set in at that speed with higher drivers.
@@wizlish The J suffered no mechanical ill effects from running at 110 mph even though the rotational speed exceeded the AAR recommended upper limit. The lubrication issue could be dealt with and though steam locomotive lubrication remained less than fully developed, once it is appreciated that it is the temperature of the rubbing surface which is key this opens a door to further improvement. These locomotives were relatively high performing for a number of reasons but compared with the world best practice they had poor power to weight ratios. No US steam locomotive could maintain 40 ihp per ton of locomotive weight, designers concentrated too much on evaporation and not enough on specific steam consumption though it must be said that they were good at mechanical design.
Great history, great animations! A pleasure to watch.
i actually have an ho-scale bachmann niagara so this video was cool for me
Made a donation to the cause to save the NYC electrics!
Those two NYC Motors are literally 20 minutes away, yet I never knew they even existed.
So the diesels got to run in the good weather. The steam had to run on short fuel in the worst weather. Well done NYC. The sad fact is the maintenance requirements of steam were just too much.
I just went to my local locomotive museum, saw a Niagara and it's huge!
There are no Niagaras left
13:30 Which electric locomotive was already scrapped?
i may just be dumb but i feel like i missed the names of the two locos at the end that they are trying to rescue
anyone could help me with the model names and such?
A T motor and a s motor electric amtrakguy365 did a video on the s motor
The Niagaras are easily the best NYC locomotives built in terms of reliability and versatility. They may not be the most iconic or popular but I think they deserve the title of the ultimate steam locomotives!
I mean, they could manage 6,680 (indicated) horsepower, accelerate to 90 mph with a twenty-car passenger train within two minutes, and even was rumored to be capable of 120 mph!
I am no big train expert. However the duplex steam locomotives look to badass to not have. We need them to make a comeback.
Best in the USA maybe. The SNCF certainly had more powerful steam engines that ran with higher performance and lower coal consumption.
It'll be interesting to see what High Iron does with Chapelon, particularly the 242 A1 (another key 4-8-4), the 160 A1, and the 4-8-0s in context...
@@wizlish Exactly.
No SNCF engine was as powerful - much impressive on power to weight. The US engines were amazing for engineering - roller bearings, cast frames (which were heavy, but they needed to be to handle 6500 hp at the cylinders) and welded boilers etc.
The most powerful European express engine was the Chapelon 4-8-4, which had 5300 hp at the cylinders, 4400 at the drawbar from a 53 sq ft grate weighing 148 tons locomotive (and 70 ton tender).
Wonderful video!! The Niagaras were absolutely magnificent!!
I've seen the 3001 it's an awesome loco
one of my favorites
Quite funny I bought Those engines engines from K&L trainz I heard NYC 4-8-4 were most efficient type ever
Paul Keifer, brilliant engineer and visionary....
Love the video guys, just one question though: what route is used at 4:16?
Merry Christmas
Gresley A4 Pacifics are Concorde
It's a great shame none the Niagras are here today
Nice video! Believe it or not, I heard of these Niagaras before I heard of Niagara Falls!
Can you make a video if and if not why steam electric locomotives were made
Milwaukee Road 261’s pilot at 0:28.
What is the size of your lay out ?
The reason that I am asking is ,I have a three car tandem garage and I can't decide if I want to model O gauge or HO ,.
I am leaning towards O gauge .
Your input would be greatly appreciated .
3001 should run again
Prime cut video perciate it Hombre.
Very well done video...BRAVO!!!
Could you post vídeos about the updates on the Project to save the new york central locomotives pls?
Not sure. That would be Danbury's call to make as I'm not officially involved with the effort.
@@HighIron Ok thats fine
What cool engines I hope they are able to be moved
So. Its been a year. Did they get moved?
They did. Some incidental damage, but that can and will be repaired.
@@wizlish that's wonderful
Nice documentary. Thanks for posting. BTW, I hope you won't mind a gentle correction? The term you were looking for was 'relegated', not 'delegated.'
Will the Alco RS3 behind the electric locos be saved too? They are my favourite American diesel locomotives. Excellent video by the way.
The RS3 has been cut up; regrettably, so has the 2510 (which was a historic piece of New Haven's modern history).
I saw UP844 blazing through Hallsville Texas back in 2012, it had to be doing at least 75, possibly even 80mph.... Steam trains are way up there in bad-assery
Who’s here because of the recent announcement of 3001?
I really wish one or two or even three of the Niagaras were preserved
I have a suggestion, do you think you could make a video on frisco 1522?
Its such a shame none of these were preserved same goes for the hudsons
What about the NKP S-2 Berkshires?
Awesome video!
We need more new build projects for the NYC!
What is you opinion? On Amtrak 184 back phase 5
which version of trainz do you use?
Didn't NYC ran Niagras on the Big 4 to Indy only?