The Roman watching them and subsidizing them is really weird - it’s like a “simulacra” of Spartan life. They were warriors, then in decline, then they lived in some sort of “Spartan realism” where their way of life was just reliving their finest moments, even as their end was just around the corner. Interesting.
I suspect that the liberated and active lives of Spartan women, and the continuation of the dual Agid/Eurypontid monarchy, had a lot to do with their militarized society. If the majority of the male citizenry were called up to battle, having both a back up king and women who could run affairs and defend themselves against the helots would be a useful insurance policy in a crisis
I think you have a point. The mobilization of a large proportion of the male population of the UK and USA during the second world war had the effect of expanding the roles of women into many previously male-dominated areas.
It's pretty hilarious that Sparta is arguably the first and only state in history to be provably destroyed by women's lib. Spartan women had nearly equal rights without equal responsibilities. Specifically they didn't die nearly as often from childbirth as Spartan men died from war once major warfare became common. So Spartan women would inherit from their husbands, something not allowed in any other Greek State, then pass to their daughters, again uniquely Spartan. These wealthy daughters would marry the wealthiest young men, who would also die in battle. A few generations of war caused most Spartan wealth to concentrate in the hands of a few dozen women, impoverishing most Spartans, and causing the collapse of the citizenry from all those unable to pay their syssitia fees. All attempts at either enforcing existing laws or reform to correct the problem were blocked by the women, who while unable to vote, were more than able to bribe.
@@qboxer As you know, there is the phenomenon of the Spartan mirage, where everything we know about Sparta comes from a few foreigners filtering things through their own beliefs. So, I'm talking Aristotle's Politics, and Plutarch, mainly the Life of Agis. Aristotle described how property accumulated in women, and Plutarch described how women tried to block the attempted reforms of King Aigis IV, at a time when Sparta had only 700 citizens left, 600 of whom were poor. All modern historians really do is interpret how much of these few sources is accurate. Like how much the sexism of Greek and Roman historians shade what they write. Still, there are no other sources, and there's not much dispute that 1) the Spartan citizen body collapsed, and 2) women owned a huge amount of land and wealth, and 3) all efforts at reform revolved around confiscating and redistributing land, which of course large land owners would resist.
Let us be honest. The Romans brought economic prosperity and stability to the people dwelling in ancient Greece. Greece underwent a new economic boom during Roman times and the Romans repaired Greek buildings destroyed in the Greek civil wars. Greek culture was always considered part of Roman culture. The Romans raised Greek to the status of administrative language. Sparta itself benefited greatly under Roman rule. Vivat Imperium Romanorum
To be honest, being a soldier of Rome is likely highly romanticized? Rome entered many of its campaigns based upon the profitability of the slave trade. Much the same as Greece. I feel fortunate these seem far more gentile times. The story goes that tyrants and pirates abounded until subdued by the order of Rome. A consultation with the natives might paint a different picture? Roman taxes and levies even spawning new religions? Not to dismiss your great comment but to caution that it is victors who write the history. Spartans exemplify the Roman military tradition. It might be that almost anything would have been an improvement for the servile classes dominated by the warrior elite who anonymously spilled blood in their own initiation rites?
@@ricardboscar1864 Thanks brother. History is best understood as transition from Pax Romana to Unum Sanctum to the New World Order by the same old bloodlines. The Jesuits guard all the exits and control the dialectic. They are the best of scientists and accountants and lawyers and religionists. The rivalry between Rome and Constantinople could be called the thousand year war for rights of vassalage and taxation. The religion of Caesar put Isis or Mother Nature on the cross of Roman capitalism. The sons of Nimrod have been hoodwinked in our own usury for thousands of years. There were many tribes who have chosen to resist the Roman interregnum of slavery and taxation pushed into the farthest reaches of Northern Europe before being absorbed.
@@jothegreek i guess since the Spartans didn't spend as much on temples and other big building projects like Athens or Macedonia. So there was less to survive.
22:25 I spent almost a decade in the US Army. Gates of Fire was recommended reading at a few units 75th Ranger Rgt, 4/17 IN, 2/16 IN, The junior leader development was called the Agoge at a couple and detachments, small units or temporary units took there motto and sometimes names from Spartan sayings or individuals. The Spartans are still seen as a mindset and way of living to aspire to in some circles.
@@wankawanka3053 Right. Plataea may have had more significance to the Greeks at the time, but Salamis was the more important victory, and the most important battle in the Greco-Persian war.
So if you were a slave in Sparta and you worked in the field all day. And then when your walking home tired from laboring under the whip,you also had to look out for basically trained military recruits trying to kill you! Geez!
@@jmiquelmb according to Plutarch, a common saying at the time was "in Sparta the free man is more free than anywhere else in the world, and the slave more a slave" which would seem to indicate that the helots were worse treated than slaves in the rest of greece.
@@Calintares That's not what most historians consider. Also, you should be wary of taking contemporary accounts at face value. Back then this was political discourse
Rome: Visit Sparta, ticket only 10 denarius. Or you can buy a season pass for only 99.9 denarius. See young man beat the shit out of each other for YOUR entertainment!!!!! Come, visit today!!
18:05 eugenics were common sense to a lot of premodern peoples, it's not something peculiar to the spartans. these are people who relied heavily with up close and personal animal breeding and correctly presumed the same concept applied to humans. plato and aristotle both reference eugenics more than once in their works. it's a really bizarre thing that this common sense aspect of biology is presumed to apply to all animals except humans in modern science.
@@lestershinglesnack9210 "racism" being pseudoscience is the idea that natural selection doesn't apply to humans, and is basically creationism and pseudoscience itself driven by nothing but politics and emotions.
In todays age, it’s scary to even bring this up. You are brave sir. Don’t try saying anything like that at a high school/college class…. You may be thrown out
I think it is worth touching upon the careers of some of the later kings (of both houses) who tried to improve Sparta's fortunes. Some of these people were very significant: Agesilaos II; Areos I; Agis IV and especially Kleomenes III. The latter beat Makedon on several occasions and was really very unlucky at Sellasia. Another point perhaps worth exploring when it comes to Rome; the Spartans were one of the few cities on the winning side of the Roman Civil Wars (as they affected Greece); and gained special status because of it. I believe they sent troops to Pharsalos or Phillipi (or both). Some Romans believed they were the kin of ancient Spartans (wishful thinking) and certainly admired its martial culture and history. One later Roman emperor even insisted upon having a Spartan (and Makedonian) unit in his army.
I get more knowledge than school from your videos. The content of your video is fantastic. I admire your deep research and hard work You are extremely worthy for admiration. It is an unforgettable memory for me. Thanks for the amazing knowledge. But I want to know who is the founder of this amazing channel?
Why no one ever talks about the west of Greece. Yeah, sometimes people talk about Olympia and the Olympic games, but what about the city states there? Weren't there any?
Epirus and a few others. They are similar to Macedon. Relationships with Illyrians, in Epirus case also Southern Italy. They would be bringing in exports to Athens, similar to Macedon. I'm not sure what central Greek city if any was in charge of meddling in their affairs though.
@@MarkVrem Korkyra (Corfu) was a major power, probably the third strongest naval power after Athens and Corinth. It was a Corinthian colony but on bad terms with its mother city and an Athenian ally during The Peloponnesian War.
Many people assume Greece was all city-states. But it wasn't. They tended to be in the central regions and northern Peloponnese. Greece also has kingdoms (like Epeiros & Makedon); federations (like Akhaia, Aitolia; Arkadia; Khalkidiki etc.); and wild tribalised areas. Sparta had an unusual system - often called a Timocracy (but had elements of oligarchy; dyarchy; democracy mixed in too). Thessaly seems to have been controlled by feudal chiefs; and although Thebes was a city-state - it held sway over much of Boiotia (including other cities). The most famous other city-states are of course Athens; Corinth & Argos. And I am only talking about the original mainland Hellas.
My man, why would you miss out Agis IV and Cleomenes III and their vane tries to cure that rotten state of Sparta and restore it to former glory? In my opinion the stories of them are not just a perfect example of how dire the situation in Sparta and in general in Greece have become and but also great political essay so to speak.
I looooove the concept of turning the city of sparta into a tacky theme park atraction. Serves those clowns well, they are seriously overrated. Even Philip the second years before that laughed his ass off when they resisted and was like “oh no i shit my pants!😂 let them be they are not worth my time, what i am getting if i conquer them? Like 20 bucks? LMAO”
It wasn't just that they were killing Helots, but "who" among the Helots they were killing. Usually any Helot that displayed more charisma, intelligence, ambition, or any other characteristic of leadership that could make them a figurehead of a revolt.
Spartans became historical reenactors of their past glorious history. I wonder if they might have reenacted Leonidas' stand against the Persians at Thermopolis for Roman aristocratic audiences LOL.
Some remarks. Sparta was a westpoint . It was not that they were the best warriors but the build excelent Officers. They are countless stories on spartans being mercenaries for other Great powers. Examples A Spartan defeats a Roman army in Africa . Spartans face illyrians in noumerous in excibitions. Syracuse and Tarentum were exspartan colonies. Economic Powerhouse in their areas if only spartan was a bit more openminded ehh. Tzakones a linguistic minority in Greece said to are related to the ancient Lacedomonians. Have you ever been in Sparta? The terrain fully explains why the did not needed for long walls. The same area was seat for Byzantine power in the fort of Mystra.
Actually, my impre3ssion has always been that Sparta produced remarkably few skilled commanders considering how narrowly their education system was focused on producing military men. Brasidas and Lysander were both great commanders, but most of their other commanders sucked. Gylippus had talent, but wasn't a full citizen due to Sparta's failing social order. Most of Sparta's generals were inept or mediocre. I have always struggled to wrap my head around how meh the Spartan commanders really were given how much more effort that they put into producing commanders than their neighbors.
@@ThersitestheHistorian they are many in history compared to most greek cities. Do not forget they were restrain from tradition but they constantly fought as merc from italy to egypt
Having read through Brett Devereaux's blog series This.Isn't.Sparta I came away thinking that Sparta must've been the most evil and awful socciety in all of ancient history, only maybe challenged by North Korea in modern times.
Would you be interested in doing an interview on the lycurgan reforms? I have a small youtube channel where we talk about political philosophy. You can dm me on Twitter.
As a fan of perikles and the Athenians. I can't help but laugh at fate of Spartans becoming essentially tourist attractions living like it was their glory days just for the amusement of Romans.
![Oasis - Oasis Live '25 [Official Trailer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gol_JnuEtKM/mqdefault.jpg)
The end is hilarious. I didn't know the Romans turned Sparta into a theme park. That's great.
Venice
LARPolis
Aye ya spoiling spoiler! Haha Bruce Willis was a ghost as well!
@@abc-oq7dt I just jizzed in my pants
"I didn't know the Romans turned Sparta into a theme park"
All said, it sounds very much like Westerners visiting 3rd world countries as tourists.
The Roman watching them and subsidizing them is really weird - it’s like a “simulacra” of Spartan life. They were warriors, then in decline, then they lived in some sort of “Spartan realism” where their way of life was just reliving their finest moments, even as their end was just around the corner. Interesting.
Kingdom > Freaky Kingdom > Theme park
Now that’s not a bad evolution.
I suspect that the liberated and active lives of Spartan women, and the continuation of the dual Agid/Eurypontid monarchy, had a lot to do with their militarized society. If the majority of the male citizenry were called up to battle, having both a back up king and women who could run affairs and defend themselves against the helots would be a useful insurance policy in a crisis
I think you have a point. The mobilization of a large proportion of the male population of the UK and USA during the second world war had the effect of expanding the roles of women into many previously male-dominated areas.
It's pretty hilarious that Sparta is arguably the first and only state in history to be provably destroyed by women's lib. Spartan women had nearly equal rights without equal responsibilities. Specifically they didn't die nearly as often from childbirth as Spartan men died from war once major warfare became common. So Spartan women would inherit from their husbands, something not allowed in any other Greek State, then pass to their daughters, again uniquely Spartan. These wealthy daughters would marry the wealthiest young men, who would also die in battle. A few generations of war caused most Spartan wealth to concentrate in the hands of a few dozen women, impoverishing most Spartans, and causing the collapse of the citizenry from all those unable to pay their syssitia fees. All attempts at either enforcing existing laws or reform to correct the problem were blocked by the women, who while unable to vote, were more than able to bribe.
@@shangrilainxanadu do you have any good articles or books that would explain what you talked about?
@@qboxer As you know, there is the phenomenon of the Spartan mirage, where everything we know about Sparta comes from a few foreigners filtering things through their own beliefs. So, I'm talking Aristotle's Politics, and Plutarch, mainly the Life of Agis. Aristotle described how property accumulated in women, and Plutarch described how women tried to block the attempted reforms of King Aigis IV, at a time when Sparta had only 700 citizens left, 600 of whom were poor. All modern historians really do is interpret how much of these few sources is accurate. Like how much the sexism of Greek and Roman historians shade what they write. Still, there are no other sources, and there's not much dispute that 1) the Spartan citizen body collapsed, and 2) women owned a huge amount of land and wealth, and 3) all efforts at reform revolved around confiscating and redistributing land, which of course large land owners would resist.
@@shangrilainxanadu Thanks! I am a big proponent in reading primary sources, so I greatly appreciate it.
Let us be honest. The Romans brought economic prosperity and stability to the people dwelling in ancient Greece. Greece underwent a new economic boom during Roman times and the Romans repaired Greek buildings destroyed in the Greek civil wars. Greek culture was always considered part of Roman culture. The Romans raised Greek to the status of administrative language. Sparta itself benefited greatly under Roman rule. Vivat Imperium Romanorum
To be honest, being a soldier of Rome is likely highly romanticized? Rome entered many of its campaigns based upon the profitability of the slave trade. Much the same as Greece. I feel fortunate these seem far more gentile times. The story goes that tyrants and pirates abounded until subdued by the order of Rome. A consultation with the natives might paint a different picture? Roman taxes and levies even spawning new religions? Not to dismiss your great comment but to caution that it is victors who write the history. Spartans exemplify the Roman military tradition. It might be that almost anything would have been an improvement for the servile classes dominated by the warrior elite who anonymously spilled blood in their own initiation rites?
@@ricardboscar1864 Thanks brother. History is best understood as transition from Pax Romana to Unum Sanctum to the New World Order by the same old bloodlines. The Jesuits guard all the exits and control the dialectic. They are the best of scientists and accountants and lawyers and religionists. The rivalry between Rome and Constantinople could be called the thousand year war for rights of vassalage and taxation. The religion of Caesar put Isis or Mother Nature on the cross of Roman capitalism. The sons of Nimrod have been hoodwinked in our own usury for thousands of years. There were many tribes who have chosen to resist the Roman interregnum of slavery and taxation pushed into the farthest reaches of Northern Europe before being absorbed.
@@ricardboscar1864 Can you explain how they were "savage and genocidal" given the context in which they lived in?
Great video. And thank you for informing me that the oldest Mycenean Greek texts were found in Bronze Age Sparta.
Damn! Didn't know there was so little left of such a pivotal Kingdom of antiquity! Well done as always!
doesnt make sense?
@@jothegreek i guess since the Spartans didn't spend as much on temples and other big building projects like Athens or Macedonia. So there was less to survive.
you and history with cy have become my favourite history channels. as much as I use you guys to fall asleep to, i also listen to you when not sleepy
Same two RUclips historians for me. Both are great.
22:25 I spent almost a decade in the US Army. Gates of Fire was recommended reading at a few units 75th Ranger Rgt, 4/17 IN, 2/16 IN, The junior leader development was called the Agoge at a couple and detachments, small units or temporary units took there motto and sometimes names from Spartan sayings or individuals. The Spartans are still seen as a mindset and way of living to aspire to in some circles.
Thermopylae and Plataea changed the course of history forever.
History doesn't change. History just unfolds.
@@josecipriano3048
Hegel's ghost nods.
Salamis was more important than platea
@@wankawanka3053 Right. Plataea may have had more significance to the Greeks at the time, but Salamis was the more important victory, and the most important battle in the Greco-Persian war.
Without Plataea and Mycale, Salamis would not have been enough, brilliant as it was.
So if you were a slave in Sparta and you worked in the field all day. And then when your walking home tired from laboring under the whip,you also had to look out for basically trained military recruits trying to kill you! Geez!
Well, there's been much discussion about how hard their slavery was. Some people think it was some sort of serfdom.
Morality didnt exist before 1945 🤣
@@jmiquelmb according to Plutarch, a common saying at the time was "in Sparta the free man is more free than anywhere else in the world, and the slave more a slave" which would seem to indicate that the helots were worse treated than slaves in the rest of greece.
@@Calintares That's not what most historians consider. Also, you should be wary of taking contemporary accounts at face value. Back then this was political discourse
Rome: Visit Sparta, ticket only 10 denarius. Or you can buy a season pass for only 99.9 denarius.
See young man beat the shit out of each other for YOUR entertainment!!!!!
Come, visit today!!
Reminds me of that renaissance era Florentine Rugby/Boxing event.
Better than watching overweight women cry on tiktok about some shit 🤷♂️🤷♂️
18:05 eugenics were common sense to a lot of premodern peoples, it's not something peculiar to the spartans. these are people who relied heavily with up close and personal animal breeding and correctly presumed the same concept applied to humans. plato and aristotle both reference eugenics more than once in their works. it's a really bizarre thing that this common sense aspect of biology is presumed to apply to all animals except humans in modern science.
Eugenics was kinda tainted by the racist pseudoscience it was used to justify, after ww2 it really, really fell out of public favor
@@lestershinglesnack9210 "racism" being pseudoscience is the idea that natural selection doesn't apply to humans, and is basically creationism and pseudoscience itself driven by nothing but politics and emotions.
In todays age, it’s scary to even bring this up. You are brave sir. Don’t try saying anything like that at a high school/college class…. You may be thrown out
Because its conflicts with the government/established orders ideology of egalitarianism.
Great to find a series that is not dumbed down and does not feel the need for crap music.
I think it is worth touching upon the careers of some of the later kings (of both houses) who tried to improve Sparta's fortunes. Some of these people were very significant: Agesilaos II; Areos I; Agis IV and especially Kleomenes III. The latter beat Makedon on several occasions and was really very unlucky at Sellasia. Another point perhaps worth exploring when it comes to Rome; the Spartans were one of the few cities on the winning side of the Roman Civil Wars (as they affected Greece); and gained special status because of it. I believe they sent troops to Pharsalos or Phillipi (or both). Some Romans believed they were the kin of ancient Spartans (wishful thinking) and certainly admired its martial culture and history. One later Roman emperor even insisted upon having a Spartan (and Makedonian) unit in his army.
Glad your back with this fantastic upload. Thank you
I get more knowledge than school from your videos. The content of your video is fantastic. I admire your deep research and hard work You are extremely worthy for admiration. It is an unforgettable memory for me. Thanks for the amazing knowledge. But I want to know who is the founder of this amazing channel?
Why no one ever talks about the west of Greece. Yeah, sometimes people talk about Olympia and the Olympic games, but what about the city states there? Weren't there any?
Epirus and a few others. They are similar to Macedon. Relationships with Illyrians, in Epirus case also Southern Italy. They would be bringing in exports to Athens, similar to Macedon. I'm not sure what central Greek city if any was in charge of meddling in their affairs though.
The southern half of western Greece was used by the Spartans to furnish helots, so that that kind of threw things off to an extent.
@@MarkVrem
Korkyra (Corfu) was a major power, probably the third strongest naval power after Athens and Corinth.
It was a Corinthian colony but on bad terms with its mother city and an Athenian ally during The Peloponnesian War.
Many people assume Greece was all city-states. But it wasn't. They tended to be in the central regions and northern Peloponnese. Greece also has kingdoms (like Epeiros & Makedon); federations (like Akhaia, Aitolia; Arkadia; Khalkidiki etc.); and wild tribalised areas. Sparta had an unusual system - often called a Timocracy (but had elements of oligarchy; dyarchy; democracy mixed in too). Thessaly seems to have been controlled by feudal chiefs; and although Thebes was a city-state - it held sway over much of Boiotia (including other cities). The most famous other city-states are of course Athens; Corinth & Argos. And I am only talking about the original mainland Hellas.
LOVE THAT DEEP BASS
Well done.
My man, why would you miss out Agis IV and Cleomenes III and their vane tries to cure that rotten state of Sparta and restore it to former glory? In my opinion the stories of them are not just a perfect example of how dire the situation in Sparta and in general in Greece have become and but also great political essay so to speak.
I looooove the concept of turning the city of sparta into a tacky theme park atraction. Serves those clowns well, they are seriously overrated. Even Philip the second years before that laughed his ass off when they resisted and was like “oh no i shit my pants!😂 let them be they are not worth my time, what i am getting if i conquer them? Like 20 bucks? LMAO”
Never heard about the Spartan secret police killings, sounds pretty terrible. Surprising helots didn’t have more uprisings.
It wasn't just that they were killing Helots, but "who" among the Helots they were killing. Usually any Helot that displayed more charisma, intelligence, ambition, or any other characteristic of leadership that could make them a figurehead of a revolt.
Annual war on helots is where purge films took the idea 😂
That has got to be one of the worst movies EVER!!
I can imagine spartans living by Tony Montana words: All we have is our balls and our words. xD
Based!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ngl roman sparta sounds pretty metal
Yes. Naked yoga classes with Spartan girls. Hurray.
This is SPARTA! ( had to do it!)
The Romans had to feel a similar hubris when visiting Sparta
This...is..Sparta!...That'll be ten bucks for tickets please
WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT BETTANY HUGHES?
Spartans became historical reenactors of their past glorious history. I wonder if they might have reenacted Leonidas' stand against the Persians at Thermopolis for Roman aristocratic audiences LOL.
Some remarks. Sparta was a westpoint . It was not that they were the best warriors but the build excelent Officers. They are countless stories on spartans being mercenaries for other Great powers. Examples A Spartan defeats a Roman army in Africa . Spartans face illyrians in noumerous in excibitions. Syracuse and Tarentum were exspartan colonies. Economic Powerhouse in their areas if only spartan was a bit more openminded ehh. Tzakones a linguistic minority in Greece said to are related to the ancient Lacedomonians. Have you ever been in Sparta? The terrain fully explains why the did not needed for long walls. The same area was seat for Byzantine power in the fort of Mystra.
Actually, my impre3ssion has always been that Sparta produced remarkably few skilled commanders considering how narrowly their education system was focused on producing military men. Brasidas and Lysander were both great commanders, but most of their other commanders sucked. Gylippus had talent, but wasn't a full citizen due to Sparta's failing social order. Most of Sparta's generals were inept or mediocre. I have always struggled to wrap my head around how meh the Spartan commanders really were given how much more effort that they put into producing commanders than their neighbors.
@@ThersitestheHistorian they are many in history compared to most greek cities. Do not forget they were restrain from tradition but they constantly fought as merc from italy to egypt
@@ThersitestheHistorianThey were more brawn than brain.
So the Romans basically turned Sparta into the world's first theme park?
Having read through Brett Devereaux's blog series This.Isn't.Sparta I came away thinking that Sparta must've been the most evil and awful socciety in all of ancient history, only maybe challenged by North Korea in modern times.
His work is excellent. Both his series on Sparta and the Fremen Mirage.
Sparta pre-rome: Peak Performance Warriors
Sparta post-rome: Tourist Attraction
👍👍👍
Would you be interested in doing an interview on the lycurgan reforms? I have a small youtube channel where we talk about political philosophy. You can dm me on Twitter.
18:00 "Women practiced sports for the purpose of eugenics" ??
I suspect that the role of women in Sparta had more complicated motivations than that.
Spartan women did thousands of Kegels a day. Their husbands sometimes passed out. Sparta was a great place but just ran out of Spartans.
Spartans loved little boys
Like your dad
We're gonna need an ancient source for that claim.
@@soapmaker2263 I don't fight for lost history.many good lessons In just holding a spear
Most shoot and get hit in the head
Short sword in today's self defense
hewwo.
As a fan of perikles and the Athenians. I can't help but laugh at fate of Spartans becoming essentially tourist attractions living like it was their glory days just for the amusement of Romans.
tsrif
Boo
Ahhhhh
Tonight in my hands ahhhh
first
Indeed u are/are u fulfilled
@@oscarpalacios7964 Indeed u are/are u fulfilled
@@beepboop204 oh no I feel silly, auto correct