The insane potential of Pumped Storage Hydropower.
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- Pumped Storage Hydro had, until recently, been all but written off as a fully exploited dead-end for energy storage expansion. According to new research though, it turns nothing could be further from the truth! It could literally be the lynch pin to get us to 100% renewable global electricity grids without having to pillage the earth (and deep seabed) of critical minerals.
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Research Links
Australian National University
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Interactive Map
NREL - Closed Loop Pumped storage Hydropower Resource Assessment for USA
www.nrel.gov/docs/fy22osti/81...
NREL - Examining Supply Side Options by 2035
www.hydropower.org/hydropower...
Queensland Supergrid Infrastructure blueprint
www.epw.qld.gov.au/__data/ass...
IHA - 2022 Hydropower Status Report
www.hydropower.org/publicatio...
Interactive Map
www.hydropower.org/hydropower...
Low-cost renewable electricity as the key driver of the global energy transition - Bogdanov et al
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Another interesting video.
Floating solar would fit nicely with most pumped hydro installations.
The panels could help reduce evaporation, while the cooling effect of the water would help increase the efficiency of the panels.
The close proximity would also help reduce transmission losses.
You could also add wind turbines in the same location to share the electrical connection or even pump water back up to the top, which would probably be cheaper than using conventional wind turbines.
Didn't Dave do a video on that recently (using floating solar on existing dams), or was it another channel? Lots of potential win here.
See recent Fully Charged video from Portugal
Interesting idea. It's new, creative, well thought out ideas, such as this, that are needed--and even more imporatant, need to be acted upon. Thanks.
Blocking sunlight over lakes would have a significant ecological impact.
An excellent video. However, the potential potential for pumped hydro is much bigger than presented here. As Richard Feynman said, there is plenty of room at the bottom. Namely, the lower reservoir does not need to be above ground. If it is excavated underground, the head can be optimized and potential sites multiplied. This is not even mere theory, as a demonstration plant is being constructed at the Pyhäsalmi mine in Finland. This is the deepest mine in Europe, 1400m.
Yes, old mines could be repurposed as the lower half of pumped hydro sites. Maybe not ones that are full of toxic tailings, but many mines should be clean enough. Wikipedia says Pyhäsalmi was a copper and zinc mine, and from the number of non-mining uses they're coming up with like using it as a movie set and data center it must be plenty clean.
Definitely not the deepest mine in EU. Deepest eg. in 'Ruhrgebiet, Germany' is 1640m.
I also strongly doubt that a mine can provide enough volume (compared to a lake).
If a denser fluid such as bentonite (1500kg/m^3) was used I assume that the required volume or mine depth would be less for the same energy storage.
@@andreasherzog2222yes, the head would be very variable. Worse, the (final) generator would be near lowest level. One flood & expensive cleanup. That’s a very niche application, distraction.
You're going to run clay through turbines? Let us know the mean time between failures!
Hmm . . . A solution that doesn't decimate our migrating salmon and birds, destroy our environment and might even create jobs! You just made my day! In the middle of this hellish summer, we all needed some optimistic news. Thank you, Dave!
Is it very hot by you?? I feel bad, it's so perfect by me. It's been a while since I've felt serious heat.
@@YourCapybaraAmigo_17yrsago We have been in the high 80's-low 90's and generally are doing well but we have family in New Orleans about whom we have daily concerns.
But it would slow the rotation of the Earth!
@@AlanUnis I bet. Humidity can be extreme in the SE and midwest. Dry heats are much easier for me to tolerate.
Dave ,
The thought of using mines set me off to the usage of a multi-ton weight used like a clock weight turning a turbine. Once the weight reaches bottom,renewable energy returns the weights to restart the process.
Also wave action could be used to pump seawater to reservoirs atop cliffs. Once the reservoirs reach capacity they wait to jump in instead of fossil fueled peaked plants. Just a thought
I love this guys style. It's like scientific discussions for the layman. The format of the videos is well thought out and the content is focused. I love it. Keep up the good work sir.
I like this channel because I feel I'm being informed, not indoctrinated. More of the same, please.
Unlike the bald glasses guy who claims every single PR announcement from a battery company is a "game changer"
@@slugbones I like Matt. He's cool. I don't mind hearing about any companies who are getting closer to making something come to fruition.
The nuclear energy video was quite challenging. But as you say it's done in s way which provokes thought. It's in the title. Whatever opinions we hold. It's good every now and again to, - Just have a think - about them.
@@slugbones He uses all the right weasel words: "claimed", "could be", "might become". David's enthusiasm is considered and informed, as well as delightful.
THIS
This is why engineers should be setting energy policy and not uninformed politicians.
because this system LOSSES net energy
Any energy conversion system loses energy.
@@iroulis so? This system loses twice is and is not needed as it is MORE expensive in cost and energy than the existing solutions.
@@protonneutron9046 And what existing solutions are you talking about?
@@iroulis solution to what problem?
I didn't expect that there were so many potential spaces to implement pumped storage hydropower. Gives me a lot of hope actually
Pumped storage is where we are technologically as far as being able to store energy at scale. We need to do more of it, and keep working on all the other things, too.
Presumably the water above and below can be covered with floating solar panels for power and anti evaporation.
Maybe. But the regular large changes in water level in each reservoir will presumably make this more difficult than usual.
@@rodnorton2658 mounting panels on a pontoon is just as simple as on a rooftop or in an open field, with the advantage that pontoons can easily follow the sun during the day with just simple winches and cables.
@@rodnorton2658 When you start measuring in acre-feet, one can engineer around the difference of surface altitude as the system cycles.
@@rodnorton2658 not if they are floating, the actual vertical displacement is less than the infographics suggest.
Harnessing the tidal power to pump the water in N.F.= free power
I went round the pumped storage hydropower in North Wales went it first opened, followed by a trip round the centre for alternative technology in Mid wales when they opened in the early 1970s. They had a profound effect on my thinking especially as I was working for Shell at the Stanlow Oil Refinery at the time.
Went to both places also in the 90s then moved to NZ where we certainly know about hydro
Geology and Environmental Sci student visited Dinorwick under the mountain ...parked on the bottom lake bed before it was commissioned.
The only issue is the rapid cycle of changing water levels means edge habitat is a bit difficult. 😂 A bit like the inter tidal zone without salt..
4:22 - 'that assumption may not hold water' 😅. Dave is a comedic genius as well as providing highly informative and researched videos.
He was really proud of that one 😂
Information, education and entertainment. A winning combination.
It always struck me as weird that pump-hydro had disappeared
It never disappeared. The Fear mongers can't make $$$ on it.
Spoiler: pumped storage hydro has never disappeared - it is just overlooked (and not liked by environmentalists, or however they are called in English).
It hasn't disappeared there are several pumped hydro site in Missouri, the problem is you need geographical sites with large elevation changes and low cost of land to convert economically. These two things usually mean that you are far from large population centers which is where you need the power. Yes you can transmit the power over long transmission lines But the losses are higher at long distances and the cost of getting permits and building those transmission lines is very high. Like power generation, power storage works best when it's close to where it's needed.
@@WJV9 I didn't mean that the existing sites had stopped so much as that it had disappeared from the agenda.
Excellent video thank you! Having lived on a rural plot of land without municipal water supply for more than two decades, I quickly learned about the great value of a hydram pump about 400m from my water tank, at a gradual upslope of about 15 degrees. I'm now living in a city suburb and have been thinking that, in addition to solar power, it should work if I have a water tank about 5m high that can easily be filled using solar power (or a self-made ram pump), and connecting it to a little turbine at ground level, which in turn generated some electricity to charge the solar batteries, esp. at night. I do see examples of building a small closed-loop hydropower system for one's own home. Will follow it up! The reason why it is vital to consider such is simple: we cannot trust the government here or any corporation to provide consistent network power (I am from South Africa), where self-sufficiency is the key to future survival.
This video on pumped storage hydropower is a total eye-opener! 🤯💧 It's incredible to witness the untapped potential of this technology, and I'm convinced it's the key to a greener tomorrow. Let's share this knowledge and work together for a cleaner planet!
I've never heard of it either! This should have been implemented decades ago and we would hopefully have avoided the total mess we are now facing.
Let’s not forget Rockefeller, Ford, and Goodyear could not have screwed the world without the help of the corrupt politicians of the USofA. That to this day still protect murderous US corporation doing business around the world not as they have to here, but however they want spewing their shit as cheaply as possible! you know the christian way!
If you're in the UK, pop over to Llanberis in North Wales and go on a tour of the "Electric Mountain". See the Dinorwig power station in all its glory. And there are many more...
There’s been hydro storage at Niagara Falls for decades. They divert water at night into a reservoir. During the day it’s released and goes to the sir Adam Beck generating station
As an engineer I worked on two pumped storage stations including Dinorwic featured in your vid. The system of pumped storage works well, is fairly low tech and safe compared with the amount of energy that can be stored. Sadly I also know how difficult it was to find a site to build a new pump storage station. There is always a strong lobby, an area of SSI or a national park to be considered. You did not show the areas in the uk identified in the study, Thank you for your work on this topic.
Hello. I wanted to ask that what goes into investigating for potential pumped storage sites. What softwares, research and considerations are taken into account. And how to go about doing. Im asking because i have to do a project on this for uni and explore potential sites in my country for PSH. It’ll be really helpful to me to get an opinion of an experienced engineer🙂
I know this comment was a while ago but do you know what the efficiency/loss is on such a system?
Here in Sweden a company called Sustainable Energy Solutions is looking into old abandoned mines for PHS. The big upside of old mines is that the environment impact is minimal since its already “built”.
As an engineer who’s been working in this field, what are your thoughts about this approach?🇸🇪
We're already using pumped hydro effectively here in Colorado (home of NREL, pronounced "enrel", by the way). We could use more of it, however. All of the major utilities in the state are pushing for 80% renewables mix for customers in the state by 2030. It seems achievable, which is great. These closed loop hydro plants could be very useful, but my concern is the construction times. We will likely need other tech to help us get to a more resilient grid, but this was always going to be the case. It's good to know that we have more options, though. We're going to need them all!
👏 precisely! Every feasible and cost effective storage method will be needed as different sites have different available benefits and detrimental aspects. Toronto for example has very little in the way of elevation variation to support pumped hydro, but is on the shores of a relatively deep and large lake. Toronto hydro has been using an underwater pumped air bladder system to charge during the night when rates are low and discharge during peak times, meaning less peak generating capacity is needed.
I've been onboard with adding more pumped hydro as a climate friendly solution for decades now and I'm 35. We can even use a few old mines in certain cases, it's really cool.
As always, a well researched and explained video. It underlines - again - that humanities main problem is not the lack of solutions.
The Dinorwig scheme in Wales is well worth a visit. You can climb up the side of the mountain above the power station, this involves climbing up the redundant slate mine, (very interesting) and feel the mountain hum as water is pumped up the mountain during the day ready to be used at peak times.
This gives a little hope. It becomes clearer and clearer that we can solve our problems on this planet,.... if we can get enough of the species in a similar mindset and pull in the right direction.
Thanks, Dave.
Love you, Man.
It's a weird comment to put here: of course there are nice plans like these pumped hydro stations, allowing for a green sustainable society. But you should just assume that schooled folks have had these in mind for a long time and even better and nicer plans too, but immediately thereafter should follow the realization that these plans are waylaid by lazy capitalism and the lazy profit-motive and it is your job to get your mindset and those of your brothers and sisters to overthrowing those institutions rather than uniting on something arbitrary and non-exhaustive like pumped hydro.
Not sure why you label pumped hydro as arbitrary; looks like one specific answer to a specific problem, and is proven to work.
I appreciate your comment about capitalism though. Just wondering- have you read "less Is More," by Jason Hickel or "Post Growth," by Tim Jackson? @@5th_decile
@@5th_decile Um, No. It is not "our job" to overthrow capitalism. It is humanity's job to solve the problem of climate change and heal the biosphere. Part of that job may well involve improving some of the problems inherent to capitalism, like unpriced externalities.
Keep in mind what the civilized world spends on militaries that are supposed to protect us! It is redicKulous the absurd amount of money spent in the USofA and forest fires, an immediate threat with deadly consequences, that are completely over the politicians heads, for decades, ok so the politicians obviously not the sharpest pencils in the box, but I would think even a broken pencil could figure out that 1,000 or 5, hell with the trillions of dollars spent the USofA should have a 10,000 fleet of all sizes of water planes that could put any forest fire out in a day! But no we have to protect the scumbag secrets of our past politicians. WTF
The two books are basically a reaction to one of the foundations of capitalism: Growth. On a planet of finite resources, the world's economies cannot continue to grow in the ways that they have been. We are presently extracting resources at twice the supposed sustainable rate, and that rate is ever-increasing. It simply cannot continue.@@incognitotorpedo42
The Pedreira installation shown in the IHA map (São Paulo, Brazil) is an example of the pitfalls of pumped hydro. As the city grew, people realized they needed THAT WATER for human consumption; nowadays that installation is just used as a flood control device rather than to store energy.
I am 42 years old and so far, I learned that if you have some logical and simple solution for a problem, it will never be chosen.
Being somewhat older than you, I have learned that most of what is being proposed is economically irrational.
It's good to see a video about solutions. I understand the need to ring the alarm bell, which you do very well, but it's good to also focus on practical solutions that can be done right now.
What are you alarmed about?
@@joemccarthy7120 Where I live in northern Europe, we are currently under alert for heavy rains and I live in an exposed region. We didn't use to have that and I live in anxiety at the moment and I expect it to last at least another week And it's been going for a while now.
You can see what happens in the summer now. The weather patterns tend to get stuck for a while in a region meaning either heavy rains or intense heat; either lasting for quite a while.
I heard somewhere that someone was looking at using old shaft mines for pumped hydro . Utilizing the height difference from the mine depth, and many are already grid connected
Finaly some good news. Thank you!
Nah,better things out there to top the "good news" list.
Here in NJ, the Yards Creek facility was built in 1965. It is currently used to help regulate energy generation from nuclear and fossil fuel plants. It has been in operation for more than half a century. Proven technology. Two years ago it was purchased by REV Renewables - a good sign!
When i was a kid they built the (then) largest Pumped Hydro facility in the world not far from my home in Ludington Michigan. They say it has 19.5 GWh of storage over a 9 hour discharge cycle. Its lower reservoir is Lake Michigan so only an upper basin needed to be built.
I have heard of many mines in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, which are closed, and with their large height difference between the bottom and the surface, the amount of water needed is less for the same storage. In many cases the mines are filling with water anyway. Additionally many mines still have electric lines run to them so that's another bonus. Using such sites means very little chance of the NIMBYs getting in the way as well!
The efficiency, scale potential, and lack of needing exotic materials for construction made me a fan of all hydro, including closed-loop pumped hydro. I was (pleasantly) surprised to see so many operational units of pumped hydro in the US.
The province of Quebec, in Canada, is 99% renewable, with 94% of its power from hydro. Theres a rivers with like a dozen dams chained every couple hundred miles along it too.
Hydroelectricity is not limited to one dam per river. As long as the river has a lower elevation downstream, you can add another dam, and another, and another…
Yay!! I've always thought "gravity battery" is our best, simplest energy storage. The "water tower" concept is widely used already as a way to increase water pressure in small towns. It would be no different to have the same or similar system with an over/under set up where there are an above and below ground reservoirs pass/pump water between them. It's simple, easy, and exists today.
We have one of these set up where I live in upstate NY. It works great. Another one was planned but received pushback from the public because of the disruption to the cliff face that would be disturbed to run the pipes and cables. Maybe the Boring Co could play a part here so the entire construction could be unseen.
Really nice video! And I have to say we need these positive news and ideas, what one could lobby for to avoid catastrophe! 😊 Two thoughts came up with me: one, you could use lightly “contaminated” water, so no competition with drinking water; two: put solar panels on top of the reservoirs! The you reduce evaporation and increase energy production, too!
I'm very pleased that you mentioned how disastrous the scheme of deep sea mining will be. Perhaps you could make a video dedicated to that subject because those who will profit the most from it are currently attempting to rush the permitting process along without allowing the essential studies to be carried out properly.
Check three weeks back.
@@mariuszfurman4767 Thanks, I had a feeling that I could have missed a video that covered the subject. I'll definitely be watching it.
Brilliant as always 💚
This appears to be a clear win on our journey to a clean, sustainable grid!
The executive summary from the IFPSH in September 2021 states ‘While PSH is a mature technology, there are emerging innovations: -- installing PSH at disused deep mines (combined with heating systems), non-powered dams (and their reservoirs), off-river PSH and seawater (as the low-level reservoir), PSH represents vast untapped potential’.
These proposals do not include damming rivers for new reservoirs or inundating habitation as the Australian study does. PSH schemes can include off-river bunded reservoirs usually on hill tops that do not interfere with water courses, can augment existing water supply schemes and provide additional facilities such as strategic high-level reservoirs to fight forest fires and augment summer water supply. Schemes can include disused quarries and closed opencast coal pits and deep coal mines.
The UK has some 440 large dams (>15m in height) with many in series up valleys or at sites close in horizontal distance but with considerable differences in elevation. There are a similar number of lakes and high-level tarns as well as many abandoned quarries that can be developed for storage. Many existing reservoirs are in Pennine valleys often 200m below flat-topped hills where bunded reservoirs could be built and connected by pipes rather than tunnels making them quicker to build yet still economically viable. In summer, when less power is needed, the reservoirs can provide additional storage during drought and strategic firefighting water in case of forest or grass fires.
There are also some 1,500 deep mine shafts in the UK with many filling with water from 12ᵒC up to 21°C that could be developed as combined thermal and PSH systems.
The recent BEIS study on energy storage identifies batteries as being the most suitable form of short-duration storage (SDS). According to several studies, PSH has the lowest levelized cost for long-duration storage (LDS), and, as the most mature technology, it has the most predictable costs for both implementation and management.
By adopting the innovations recommended by the IFPSH, I carried out a desk study for England and Wales that identified some 110 possible economic schemes.
I'm glad to see the Pacific Northwest in the US has two sites in the planning stages given the complete lack of facilities in a portion of it, probably due to the large amount of hydroelectric dams (though we're starting to decommission those!). I'm curious about the knock-on ecologic benefits, like if they're helpful for migratory birds and what kind of wildlife they're able to support without risking damage to turbines, etc. It would be neat to see something like solar pv canopies used in tandem to help reduce evaporation and cool the pv panels.
I also wonder how much could be done with hazardous water from mining run-off, etc. that never gets properly cleaned up. If it's closed loop then theoretically if it doesn't damage the equipment it could be reused. Also what kind of potential there is for repurposing abandoned mines, for the elevation difference alone if nothing else
There are currently 2 separate trials in Scotland using mines. 1 of which if deemed suitable Bay be able to be used in conjunction with a nearby opencast for Upper storage...
Those are really good ideas!
Good thinking on re-using abandoned mines for this purpose! As long as the particular leachate from the mining process isn't too chemically reactive, that seems like a good way to reuse land that's pretty much otherwise just hazardous.
How on earth could you consider demolishing hydroelectric dams as good????? Especially when it is being replaced with gas or coal fired generation further east!!!??
@@gregorymalchuk272 If they are being replaced with renewables, that would be good. Hydro dams have negative ecological effects, unfortunately.
This is a great subject! I've been reading about it and actually learned about a neat subset of this: the pumped seawater hydro plant. It takes ocean water and pumps it up a shoreside mountain. No need to involve fresh water reserves, nor river ecosystems. This is good if you are in a dry region, or on an island like the Azores.
The idea is simple but has some dangers. Salt water is not realy friendly to technical instalations and it must stay within the loop at all costs. Salt water tends to push away fresh water so the basins need to be sealed off from ground water. Also wildlife is atracted to basins, with salt water it will become a fauna killer.
The water does not have to be suitable for human consumption, still a form of desalinisation is desired.
Saltwater is a huge problem as aleak into the surrounding freshwater table would destroy agriculture and freshwater supply. Large reservoirs can be cheaply built by damming up the mouth of high level valleys facing seaward in Western Ireland. Sea level stays constant so inlet stays covered at all times. Salt also damages equipment.
@@hotdognl70 the tidal power station at La Rance does see somewhat worse corrosion effects than freshwater hydroelectric facilities but it is not so bad that it's inoperable; rather the facility is still going strong beyond 50 years of age.
A salty reservoir close to the sea coast isn't going to do any significant harm to fauna adapted to living alongside the ocean and estuaries. Positions should be chosen where all seepage and runoff joins other salty water nearby rather than running inland to contaminate fresh ground water. Choosing suitable sites should really not be difficult.
Sure if you wish to turn something into an unhospitable desert utterly unfit for anything to grow as you just salted the earth and its water table with SALT...
@@blugreen99 I think I wasn't clear, this isn't something that would be placed where there are lots of fresh water sources. Heck, it probably won't even be near agricultural regions. Billions of people live near coastlines and inland areas with very little fresh water. This could also be an option.
The intro is pure gold. 😊
I’m quite fascinated by this subject because we live on a site where there was a potential to install a micro pumped storage hydro system. Living next to a massive lake and on the slope down to the lake offers the potential to build a pond further up from our property and then using excess solar in the day to pump up to it and then it drains in the night to provide trickle feed power. It’s slightly theoretical and we have hurdles to overcome but I just see a massive battery every morning when I look out the window!
"Insane profit-driven antics" is practically the mission statement of our modern world. THAT is the true problem to be solved.
Thanks for that neede fresh breath of air! It's just cringy out of touch to shout things like "humanity should unite behind pumped hydro"! This will just make the big ties smirk, knowing they still have many more tricks to deflect responsability up their sleeves.
You can't divorce our activities from economics. Profits are just a measure of whether a project is worthwhile. Too much of this alleged energy transition is an effort to defy rational economics.
Capitalism is poison to everything. The number one failure of nuclear power.
@@joemccarthy7120economics is dismal pseudo science. 100 economists 101 solutions, literally the definition of pseudo science.
@@joemccarthy7120 "The war in Ukraine is a very worthwhile project" - Lockheed Martin
Great video Dave! I'm glad there are people trying to make a difference now
Great video, Dave! Good news, I'm glad to see!
finally someone talks about it . I only tried to convince friends of this idea before without having heard anyone else supporting. the biggest caviar might be the financial return. the water origin to fill it at least the first time is an essential question. otherwise every politician and investor should know about this.
might be the best solution to a whole lot of issues. great thanks.
As I expressed in the Patreon preview, I am so happy you've posted this report! Thank you, Dave! And… this time I'll refrain from saying more.
I wonder if the fossil fuel industry will find some way to hamstring this. Like using their friends in power to reduce and governmental help and increasing the difficulty in getting them built.
They already are, like all alternatives to fossil fuels. The the same money and energy was invested in renewables as fossil, we'd already be almost fully supplied.
They spend in excess of 22 times what the green lobby spend on perverting opinion.
They buy politicians for a reason… and this would be that reason.
Its not the fossil industry sabotaging Pumped Storage Hydro. It is government regulation and the fact nearly ALL places viable for said energy solutions have people living there or owned land by the government which will not allow it. Californian Farmers for at least 40 years have been screaming at their reps to get a Giant lower pool built in SanJuaquin valley to use as a lower pool from Hech Heddy and for the giant reservoir above San Francisco... No such luck. We are literally talking a pressure head of 1500m -->2000m in both instances and a GIANT water flow between these destinations with EXISTING piping infrastructure... Easy 50GW installation is possible... Yet nothing from the damned regulators and all the flood water go merrily out to sea utterly being wasted.
The NIMBY effect will be exploited here, but is easy to counter:
How glad will you be in the future if the temperature isn't going well above body temperature for extended times in the summer?
Makes sense to me. I come from Norway with 90+% hydro power. Of course the vast majority of water just spill out into the fjords. Pumping it back up makes sense when power prices on the spot market is zero or even negative. Of course having the Norwegian grid connected through Acer and crazy EU auction scheme meant to screw customer by having highest power prices possible is just simply stupid. That throws away the only significant competitive advantage this small country has.
Another angle for pumped storage that’s now being pursued is the conversion of existing one-way hydro schemes to pumped storage - where the lower level has a lake rather than just a river for run-off. The large hydro scheme in Scotland connecting Loch Sloy with Loch Lomond is planning an upgrade to pumped storage, as it was originally conceived in the 1930s. There’s a good Wikipedia article on Sloy Dam, well worth a read!
To me, pumped hydro is a prime example of the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid), and definitely needs to be more widely implemented. I also see the great potential of combining with floating solar as commented by @1964mcqueen earlier. I really appreciate all your videos! Thank you.
This makes more sense to me than building a bazillion "disposable" batteries. How efficient is the charge/discharge cycle of pumped storage hydro compared to LiPo's ? Certainly worth giving a try. Thanks for the video!
I love the positive energy you fluidly present here. I wish the world would absorb this idea.
I'm a big fan of pumped hydro, so I am glad to see this video and glad to see that there IS some activity in this area.
Another enlightening, informative and well-presented podcast Dave! Thanks!
Does pumped hydro actually need fresh water? Well, obviously if it's going to interact a fair amount with the surrounding natural ecosystem, you would want fresh water, but there should still be plenty of sites near the sea that could use sea water, as well as using the ocean as a bottom-level reservoir (as long as there's limited risk of contamination). You could also potentially use underground cavities as the lower reservoir, in the appropriate context.
Plus plenty of micro sites at abandoned mines where vertical displacement will offset the lower volume.
Yes, for long term viability you need fresh water. Same reason the breakthrough of distilling water for steam locomotives etc in the 19th century was such a big breakthrough
I love the "not holding water" joke.
Keep those in.
the subtle sarcastic humour makes ur highly educational videos unique on the field. 👍
It seems to me there is a synergy with pumped hydro and wind.
Both tend to want to be at height ...... but the pumped hydro would need a suitable nearby low spot as well.
It may well be a good idea to look at, if not micro, then at least smaller pond sized hydro if it is to be used for balancing the unpredictable wind farms. This would extend the useful time an instillation could produce for and make controlling the Grid an easier task! This is often overlooked by planners!
I do have to wonder about the carbon footprint of all the concrete needed for this though ;o)
SUggest math before posting moronacy
A lot less than for a nuclear plant for sure.
And one vaporation surpression system are?
Vapor cooled Solarcells;)
Floating solar has already been tested for this kind of thing to which is awesome!
In Switzerland we have some of them.
Up to 1.0 GW-power-capacity.
Nantes de Drance: 900 MW power, capacity 20 hours = 18 GWh energy
PSW Limmern: 1000 MW power, capacity 33 hours = 33 GWh energy
The profitability depends strong on the market prices and the rules of the market.
With one of the latest projects, the investors nearly bancrupted, because of changing rules.
But now with the war, the prices are high and they made a lot of money.
When he stated that 2 olympic sized swimming pools of water could produce a significant amount of power my thoughts turned to High Rises. One pool on the roof and one pool in a sub basement. Combine that with the Wind and solar modules that he had talked about earlier. You could have an electricity exporting building.
Good dose of optimism, thanks Dave! These systems would be so low-tech and cheap compared to equivalent capacity battery-based systems. How about putting the reservoirs underground, or using underground capacity that's already there?
Severely geologically constrained is the reason. Almost nowhere can you do this. A few very rare instances is not reality. Also a severe volume problem as well. Then throw in inability for maintenance. Viable in tiny circumstances...
Grid scale batteries best purpose is to provide short term smoothing of demand so the pumped hydro can be optimized against it. Hydro can be adjusted on an hourly basis while batteries are a fraction of a second. Together they can be more effective than one of them on their own.
Hydroelectric units can come online in 1-2 minutes.
@@sharkheadism Thanks for your comment. By come on line in 1 to 2 minutes, do you mean from shut down to fully operational? What about load matching minute by minute?
@@colingenge9999 Yeah that's what I mean... they can go from stopped and offline to fully running and under load in a minute or two. That's one advantage hydroelectric has over over generating mechanisms and why they're often used as load-following and peaker plants rather than baseload. The generating units run at a constant RPM to match the frequency of whatever grid they're on.
Unfortunately there's level of scepticism in Australia in pumped hydro for a few reasons, one of which was caused by a proposal for pumped hydro a few years ago, but instead of using renewable energy to pump the water up, it was instead proposed using traditional fossil fuel power generation to do so, but still somehow being sold as a green form of power. Secondly was the threat of droughts and water shortage which could undermine available water which people feel would be better used for farming and consumption.
Thanks for this - I've always been a fan of pumped storage ever since I first climbed in the slate quarries above Dinorwig - good to see that there is more capacity than had been thought.
Would it make any sense (have no idea how the numbers would work out) for creating small scale pumped hydro for private use vs using batteries.
No, small scale for this won't work. Find an example of someone tapping a stream to produce electricity with a hydropower turbine. The throughput of water in one hour would require costly, gigantic reservoirs at both ends. Then multiply by five or ten hours.
It would be interesting what kind of carbon footprint the construction of such hydro plants are. I would expect a lot of rock needs to be crushed and moved and a lot of concrete poured.
But as someone living kind of near the Alps I hope the numbers work out! The European grid could use it!
I can guarantee you the carbon footprint for the construction would be less than the carbon footprint for the equivalent energy generation by fossil fuels.
Perfect is the enemy of good and done, so it's about time we start working on some less than perfect solutions and get something done.
@@jon1913 have you considered the volume of concrete and its associated emission and pressure on resources? What about competition for land use that will be flooded? These are obvious questions to answer before choosing between alternatives. Otherwise the solution may not even develop at scale and it is a waste of our resources. It is unclear why and how you would compare to energy generation for fossile fuel, the question is about storage, so that involves comparing with alternative storage solutions, dispatchable low carbon energy (e.g. nuclear), or simply collectively agreeing on a reduction of our energy consumption, notably when there is no wind and sun...
Seems like a great solution to energy storage...
Time to pump the extra seawater uphill for some new saltwater lakes. What I love about these systems is they convert sporadic power based on Wind/Solar into consistent baseload power that can truly replace coal and gas plants. It is also technically possible to use DC direct drive pumps that would spin faster as the angle of the sun improved. I do not know whether that is realistic in all applications, I only know about that for small systems. If it did work, you could avoid the efficiency losses from the power inversion from DC to AC.
Salt water penetrating the ground would be a flora killer, any wildlife atracted to basins would be in serious trouble as well.
Absolutely fascinating! 🤓 Pumped storage hydropower is the hidden gem in the world of renewable energy. We need to shout from the rooftops about its potential and make sure our leaders invest in this incredible technology. Let's create a cleaner and greener future together! 🌱🌎
Hi Simon 😀
Instead of having "our leaders" invest in this alleged gem, let's have rational investors decide whether it is worthwhile.
Huh? This was a GPT generated comment optimised for likes just to say hi to Simon, my cousin who watches this channel.
@@injest1928 It was still a silly comment. I am curious, though, how you used GPT to generate a comment.
@@injest1928 Don’t do it again, bro. 🙄
@jrrarglblarg9241 Oh, dear stranger, your unsolicited advice has left me quite bewildered. It seems you've taken it upon yourself to be the "comment police" on this platform, but fear not, for I shall not be deterred by your stern words. You see, my seemingly innocent "Huh?" comment was not just an arbitrary gesture, but a cleverly crafted masterpiece of digital artistry designed to pique the curiosity of those who, like my cousin Simon, frequent this channel.
Alas, your apparent disdain for my well-thought-out comment makes me wonder if you possess the intellectual capacity to appreciate the subtle nuances of GPT-generated banter. But fret not, my friend, for the likes I receive are not a mere measure of validation, but a reflection of my ability to strike a chord with the community through wit and ingenuity.
So, as you continue your noble quest to safeguard the sanctity of online interactions, let it be known that I shall remain an unrivaled master of generating content optimized for appreciation and laughter, all the while maintaining the utmost respect for the platform's guidelines. And if, perchance, you find yourself in need of a dose of wit and amusement, feel free to marvel at my future comment endeavors, which are sure to dazzle even the most stoic of online bystanders.
In conclusion, dear stranger, I bid you farewell on your journey to uphold the sacred laws of internet commenting, while I embark on mine, exploring the vast realms of creativity and humor. May we meet again someday, in a virtual arena where our words shall dance like gladiators in a poetic battle of likes and shares, and may the wittiest prevail! Until then, au revoir! 🎩🕺
Hi Dave - Hope all is well with you. I rewatched the end to make sure that you really did say 'see you next week'. Your sermons are one of the highlights of my Sunday evenings (Who am I kidding? My Sunday evenings rarely have any other highlights) so I was a bit discombobulated when there was no new upload. I even wondered if it was really Sunday. Looking forward to the next video, whenever it comes out. Be well.
Please take a look at 'Pumped Seawater Hydro'. The potential is, also gargantuan. You only need one reservoir, as the other is the ocean. Sites were identified in the west of Ireland, with up to 500GWh capacity, across eleven small valleys.
It is interesting how many different ways and purposes that this can be implemented. Essentially capacity on demand.
Thanks for this - I needed a dose of positivity to counteract my current eco-depression!
Insane profit-driven antics never did hold water. How true! Thanks Dave, great
This could go anywhere, just have one reservoir at the surface and another underground. It would raise the cost, but in a resource based economy, it's totally worth the investment.
We will need many forms of electricity generation and storage
I love this idea. Haven’t seen this in person. A company did propose this in my area. Unfortunately they wanted to flood a main road between two mountain villages that serves as the only access for all the residents. It didn’t happen.
Thanks for this useful discussion.However there can be plenty of ideas for storing hydropower,like using a large empty vessel inside a large water resorvoir,the bottom of the empty vessel fixed to the bottom of the resirvoir where water can rush from resorvoir to empty vessel through a power generator and can be manipulated as per requirements.
A provocative (in the right sort of way) video. My imediate thought (reinforced by your showing of the great Dinorwig quarry scheme) was using old coal mines as the lower resevoir. I've seen talk of falling weight energy storage systems in the shafts, but water makes a wonderful weight and allows the use of the addits as "weight" storage. Make the upper storage as large or small as you have space for.
Pumped storage schemes need to be as efficient as possible. As to floating solar, the warmth from the panels may help to warm the water and reduce frictional losses. Tin or stainless stell wires may help to spread the heat.
Love this channel, always so comprehensively backed up, no hype, just a rational presentation with a very nice modulated voice ! Thank you.
Why is the potential of Pumped Storage ' insane'? It is the height of sanity! Good content like this doesn't need illiterate clickbait.
It’s an English figure of speech, in this context ‘insane’ means vast or extreme
Pumped hydro is very good short term energy storage ! The big issue of storage is rather the long term storage for which there are very few "solution"
For long term storage (a few weeks, inter-season and inter-annual reserves) very low cost energy storage is necessary. Classical hydro can do a small part of it, storage of H2 is still not posssible. Bio-methane is very small regarding the amount needed. It is possible to convert some of the existing system to burn wood (very easy to keep for long term) but is remains very expensive if this is used very occasionaly !
Definitely holds water Dave!
Locality matters a lot for energy storage. For example the map of potential sites in Australia points to it being a good solution in the eastern states, but not Perth or Adelaide.
I was about 8 years old in the early 1970's when I was brought on a school trip to Turlough Hill in Wicklow, Ireland, one of the first pumped storage system. It still functions perfectly, coming up to half a century after its construction. I regularly hike up around it. Its a little unsightly, as are the 220KV lines running up to it, but its an invaluable source of storage for the Irish grid. There can be no doubting that they can be a problem in our mountains - they involve serious heavy engineering and lots of new power lines, but there are plenty of possible sites available over most of Europe.
Unfortunately power lines are going to be part of these types of facilities.
Great solution and great video, Dave. Drought threatens traditional river hydro and evaporation and water scarcity could create challenges but not enough to dismiss PHS. Another untapped process could also be to use this with coastal saltwater which could assuage water scarcity concerns.
Of course any time you manipulate water at massive scale, there are environmental impacts. But it seems more likely that pumped hydro storage could be more sustainably managed than any chemical battery. Lazzard's LCOS has unfairly put the finger on the scale for lithium grid storage for a long time, ignoring the impacts, sustainability, and competition for EVs. It's time for responsible stakeholders to deprioritize short term profitability (and unscrupulous energy arbitrage, Hornsdale!!) and instead make choices that aren't long term losers on sustainability. Please build pumped hydro quickly and sustainably and use it for daily time shifting of solar instead of saving the potential energy for peak events as we often do now.
I'm not a nuclear supporter at all, but Muddy Run PHS that is mated with Peach Bottom nuclear plant has demonstrated how pumped hydro can bank excess and provide its use later. That system allows the nuclear plant to run continously but provide more than its rate nameplate by discharging PHS during normal load times, and charging while people sleep.
Once again, thank you for an uplifting video. I too got the memo that the pumped hydro solution had run dry. It seemed unlikely to me so I'm glad to hear there is still room for development.
Thanks for highlighting the Helms Pump Storage project by PG&E. I was fortunate enough to be attending Fresno State University when PG&E offered a field trip for engineering students to see the site during construction, an incredible bit of tunneling. Later, as a surveyor for PG&E, I did a topographic survey in the same area. Back when it was originally conceived, the idea was they could use excess power at night from the Diablo Canyon Nuclear power station to pump the water uphill. I'm happy to see it featured on your channel. Thanks for all your thoughtful videos. All the best from California!
I never really thought of pumped hydro as a small scale battery solution. I always associated it with large scale projects. But if one thinks small scale you could see a system of ground-level storage tanks similar to the large water tanks used on commercial farms. These could be connected to boreholes which would pump water from below ground into the tanks using solar panels mounted on top of the tanks. Then this water could be allowed to fall back underground through a turbine when power is needed.
The beauty of this system would be its modular nature and its easy scalability. All the components are readily available and if you need more capacity you just drill more boreholes and install more tanks.
West Virgina - Dominion Bath County Pumped Storage. Designed in the late 70s. Wish we did more like this.
there should also be sites that can transfer water between a surface reservoir and a subterranean one, making use of old mines or tunnels. or pumping water from lower to upper chambers underground, avoiding a surface reservoir entirely.
Excellent video, and on a completely different note, I love the background. The wall color is gorgeous, books are lovely and lighting is very soothing. Thank you for making it easy to watch.
A few years back I read an article about a similar technology that used water as a hydraulic fluid that lifted weights to store energy. The pump and generator were the same, but with weights the height could be much less and since it was a closed system, there wouldn't be an evaporation issue .
Decades ago it occurred to me that an option for a very small scale operation (say, for example a small homestead) and given access to flowing water and the appropriate elevation difference, a hydraulic ram, which uses water power to move water in small quantities, could be workable. The system would pump water to a tank on a hill and allowed to flow back down to the stream from which it came, powering a small electric generator in the process. I never tried that out, and no doubt there are numerous issues, but the principle is more or less the same as in the video. This speculation was in the days before solar electric panels were even heard of outside laboratories. The old fashioned water pumping windmill, such as dotted the the landscape where I grew up - a short walk from the Southern Rockies - was another option that crossed my mind. Somewhat larger systems for providing electricity for villages, especially remote ones, I think could be feasible - and now we have solar and wind generated electricity to assist.
What a great yet simple idea. Genius! Solving a grave problem with gravity!
This approach is a no brainer for eastern Australia.
Plus puts fire fighting water at the right location to assist in hillslope wildfires.
In Scotland we have been busy building Storage hydro, but with no support its becoming more difficult, currently to build pumped hydro its financially impossible, unless we get some support via cap and floor or FIT. Dave, we would Love to see you here in Scotland, if you fancy seeing real machines spinning.
Another benefit is it would also provide additional fresh water storage, something that is becoming especially important in various areas of the US AND elsewhere around the world.
the "hold water" pun was top notch