World's Largest Batteries - (Pumped Storage)
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- Опубликовано: 30 окт 2019
- The vast majority of our grid-scale storage of electricity uses this clever method.
Electricity faces a fundamental problem that comes with pretty much any product that’s provided on-demand: our ability to generate large amounts of it doesn’t match up that closely with when we need it. The storage of electricity for later use, especially on a large scale, is quite challenging. That’s not to say that we don’t store energy at grid scale though, and there’s one type of storage that makes up the vast majority of our current capacity.
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Writing/Editing/Production: Grady Hillhouse
Director: Wesley Crump
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Oh, wow, you actually pulled the ad? I personally didn't care too much, but that shows a tonne of dedication to your fans. Massive respect to you, Grady
Well he still has patron support. So F the ads
@@randomdude9135 I'd go as far as saying Fuck the Ad model altogether. History has shown the Ad model gives advertisers the wrong incentives and they will eventually produce unethical, predatory advertising. Burninate the Ad model.
He did what?
Why did he pull the ad?
The ad in question was a baked in NordVPN advert. For more about the recent events surrounding NordVPN and the probable reasoning behind Grady pulling the ad (aside from community pressure) I'd suggest checking out what RUclipsr JayzTwoCents had to say on the matter.
My face always lights up when Grady says “...and I made a little model to demonstrate this.”
this gentleman engineer is pure heart: an angel few we have
I visited the nearest pumped hydro plant this year for my birthday because of this video. It was an awesome experience - thanks Grady!
What like I'm not even super into things like this.but that sounds pretty awesome .they are huge things .hope your birthday was good !!
3:49 “And i built a little mini-scale version of this as a demonstration”
-Immediately subscribed
Gawk gawk
You should be happy then. He does this all the time
2031: "And to show an example of this system, i've built a mini-scale nuclear reactor for this demonstration"
Great video Grady!
9:00 ~ Genius Boys, I am here for You! ~ Hello, from 800+5+5! {a better and older "order of operations" two hands of experience talking, hand +5 and hand +5}. None may pull more power than a "Tesla Bicycle Test", all USDOT #realiD drivers iD customers must take to have interstate reciprocal travel state iD exchange or to get on to interstates this test is required.
The preferred #newreligion is 32 words for creation and god, and 20 of them for man, in all things everywhere. Whatever you can do on the bike test, you are then allowed 5\8 of 48-minute test, for a constant 24 hours flow. You can use a local battery to supplement and local buffer peak usage. The default for a test not taken or failed (local money-grubbers, and elder 62 year old plus parents) test is 20watts per hour. (5\8, 3\8) (#0.625, #0.375) (20+12=#1OfGodsChosenChildren.)
(800+5*2 (#bartsimpson and #homer) is not 800+10 #halftruth, and not +20 a child or TV #witnesstalking.)
What i experienced was that 3 #deepcyclebatteries and a 1976 #stingraycorvette, was all the electricity any one person needed for all their life, in 1998 to #2000AD (commercially #2is2 i would make it 4 batteries, i used a reflector dish radiant heater in winter, and would turn on the stingray corvette for an hour in winter, because space heater and water heaters are pigs. (One) 1 #deepcyclebattery was enough for come home, and watch TV and VHS etc, with a smart trigger turning on the Dodge 1500 Truck from time to time, when the 100watt light bulb dimmed i would get up and start it. Battery was a straight gator clips into a construction grade extension cord, no #directcurrent to house #alternatingcurrent converter, no voltage or ampere converter, gator clip two wires of a cut off male plug power cord, into a female end with triplicate splitter, that splits again = 5: #TV25inch, #RVfridge, #VHS, #100wLight Bulb, #60wLightBulb, 1Battery; and then 2 or 3 #deepcycle battery #stingraycorvette any random #spaceheater, #reflectorheater preferred and many more light bulbs for multiple housing units.)
Next tool, decades later, the invention of #GameingRouters, Next Improvement WifiManagement Routers that limited the number of allowed connections, so that #QualityOfService could have a minimum expected bandwidth to each client at public eateries in 2007.
What we want, is #gofish or #uno #ombre!
Smart Meters,
Quality of Service,
Traffick Shaping,
AMD Intel sleep cores,
Basically the price you pay is the quality of service,
produce constant power,
clients have pre-agreed rankings,
of those clients some get their power switched off,
instead of brown outs, \zone dips still and option\, can do per customer.
we have smart meters, with data over lines, telegraphing #QoS data to customers, and #NEST meters (#smartthermostats), etc reporting their heuristic behaviours consumer patterns. Assuming everyone has a car connected to their house, and quality of service #smartmeters, #smartgrids exist, the local buffers, should allow a pleasant much closer to #stepladder power control model.
Sort of .... no definitely very surprised and impressed that automatics now surpass fixed ration gears for fuel-efficiency. Your video mentioned dynamic power output, while also stating a single power output exists as ideal, same logic from fixed ratio gear days (i know the gears are still fixed, and i do like continuous variable more, even if there is more slippage and wear, or torque limits, in power generation, is this an issue, or would consumables be too expensive=my answer is year yes, i prefer shaft drive to belt, even if belt is a more pleasurable experience).
@@dukelin5807 how about a first comment inside of a comment inside of a first comment hehe
Didn't know that you also watch his channel I love you guys both
Real engineering
@@keviloltsukru1278 I watch both channels, I love how Practical engineering focuses mostly on civic engineering, and real engineering is more about mechanical/aerospace engineering. They actually complement each other really well.
First time I’m realizing that these are two different channels.
Free energy when it rains.
Exactly my thought. 😂😂😂
Also lost energy due to evaporation when it is sunny...
@@stephenshumaker8444 Rain compensate evaporation and infiltration.
@@agustinruizmoreno524 Yep, in a rainy area it does! Probably won't with Hoover Dam in Nevada.
@@stephenshumaker8444 hopefully shadeballs will help
I want to note that your videos are almost standard college material for electrical engineers. I've been watching your channel for years and now have been sent back for a rewatch as homework for 2 different professors. You never fail to impress, and I hope to be back again soon!
4:18, I worked on the Taum Sauk reservoir rebuild design and construction. There is a fascinating story about the night the original reservoir failed and a family that had their house swept away. All four, including an infant...SURVIVED!
I backpacked in this park! The destruction it caused is crazy to hike up the valley it made
I noticed that the Tom Sauk reservoir was rebuilt very very quickly after a major disaster that would have ordinarily eliminated such an endeavor in public opinion.
@@joelshor5787 I suspect it might have had it been summertime. The park is well known locally as a SUPER popular State park. It's like a natural water park, thus attracting tourists from St. Louis. Prior to the failure of that dam, the RV and tent camping sites were within the path of this dams outflow as a result of the failure. As a part of the settlement Union Electric/Ameren had to pay, they were able to move the campsites out of the way of the floodpath, mitigating the possibility. Because it was in the middle of winter, only the park superintendent's family were at risk and they survived, thus making it less of a natural disaster and more of a cost of doing business.
I worked on that project as well and own property nearby. Did you know that although they don't actually MAKE any electricity there, as in turn coal or other fuel into electrical power, it is the most profitable plant that Ameren has by a very huge margin because they use power at the lowest rate to pump water up, and sometimes they actually get paid to take the power off the grid, then they turn around and generate at the very highest rates so the spread is huge.
@@christinacody5845 Not only that, but he only survived because it was cold out. As they say you aren't dead (and he had no pulse) until you are warm and dead.
Now that was good new knowledge I didn't have! Thanks.
hi mehdi
Sup mehdi
I almost feel bad about installing 9 solar panels this summer.
Ha ! I got you Mehdi ! I knew about this heheheh.
Hi mehdi
Credits for you to pulling the VPN ad. I've rarely seen people actually give up sponsor money :D
Seriously, you should get a lot more credit for this!
What was the problem with it?
@@Sander_Datema it was a baked in NordVPN advert. For more about the recent events and the probable reasoning behind Grady pulling the ad I'd suggest checking out what RUclipsr JayzTwoCents had to say on the matter.
@@Sander_Datema paying fearmongerers to take responsibility for your data?
@@Sander_Datema and also see Tom Scott and Louis Rossmann.
@@Sander_Datema There was a massive data breach several months ago, granting access to all customer data they had. They only told the public about this a few days ago.
Worked at a utility where we had wind turbines that drove the pumps to pump the water up. Then release the water through the turbines as needed. Seemed like a good way to use turbines that are lucky to get 30% or their rated power in normal conditions..
Good way to stabilize and store a power that does not always appear when you need it.
Where was that? Excellent idea
@@joelshor5787 Beck 2 plant Queenston Ontario has pumped storage. The pump is 750 Mwatt when used as generator.
@@joelshor5787 Google "Bath County Pumped Storage". Worked well because it didn't mess up the grid with transients the way solar and wind does...it was "regulatable"...
@@georgemartin1436 you mean the bath countystation did not use wind ?
I've worked at several pump storage facilities (consulting contractor/ engineer) and they are great in practice and theory. One downside is the amount of abuse the synchronizing main breakers and equipment takes. Unlike during generation where you can spin down the current load to a negligible amount before opening the brake, during pump these breakers interrupt full load and they operate several times a day. They require far more in depth maintenence at fewer intervals than a normal generation plant.
One of the most important additions to the modern electrical grid. Great to see a layman explanation of it. I hope the public is made more aware of these demand-supply issues.
Here in Québec, we do something kinda similar: since we produce the vast majority of our electricity with hydroelectric power plants, we can use this to "virtually" store water. When wind / solar is generating power, we lower the control gates of the dam to keep the water in the reservoir and open them up at night. No pumping needed.
So why would you need solar at all?
@Steve Severl reasons: Keep the water for winter time when peak power is needed; Sell our hydroelectricity to USA at a good price; diversify / stimulate our economy (we're building solar panel production capacities and innovative battery technologies for grid scale storage).
Here in California I believe Edison etc... also pump the water back up to the upper lakes when there is excess power. Basically using existing hydroelectric investments for storage.
I liked the video but disagree with the ideia of adding more wind and solar into the grid. There's already enough proof that they'll never be able to power a modern society. Their low power density and being an intermittent source will never be overcome. So, they're useless. Instead of burning billions on useless crappy the countries should focus human and financial resources on nuclear energy. Getting molten-salt reactors up and running. Operating at high temperatures, they'll be able to do another things besides generating electricity. I ready and ran the numbers several times and the reality is that nuclear energy is our only way out fossil fuels.
@@bryanhiebert1 hahahaha Solar in canada sounds a really really dumb ideia.
I'm glad you mentioned the efficiency. That was one question I was going to ask if you didn't mention it :). Great video! 70% is still pretty good all things considered.
Dinorwig www.electricmountain.co.uk/Dinorwig-Power-Station is reported to manage 75%
@Claptrap Jesus Its usually used to stabilise the grid so i would say yes ineficcient, but very important and well worth it.
As the video says, if you can get money more than you lose with all things considered. It's feasible to build
Lithium ion is 80-90% efficiency, but it’s also terrible for grid level storage. Grid batteries like iron- or aluminum-air have much lower energy efficiencies, though also require much less space. Pros and cons.
Its horrible in an absolute sense but pretty good in a relative sense
Hearing about pumped storage in terms of arbitrage rather than “it’s like a battery” really made the whole thing click for me. Thanks for the fantastic video, Grady!
It's very inefficient compared to battery 🔋
The vibe of the first line of the description is like:
"How to store energy with this simple trick electricity companies don't want you to know."
Actually, it is a very well known practice. In fact, I learnt about that in college, more than 20 years ago. Power generation companies would gain nothing from hiding this.
@@antofa999 if anything, it is the opposite. It i much easier to build these storage facilities if you have public opinion backing you.
@@antofa999 He's not saying it's kept secret, he's not even talking about the power storage method. He's talking about the video description only. He's saying the wording of that line is strange for a video description. It sounds exactly like something an advertisement uses as a title/headline to make you click the link.
Foster the engineer: Pumped up Storage
Pumped up lips. I had to do it hehe
Aaaall the other engineers with the pumped up machines, better run better run, outrun my innovation.
I was raised near one of these things, here in Germany. The elevation was about 300m.
For my fellow americans, its around 984~ feet
I heard you need at least 300 m or 1000 ft to make pumped storage practical and of course a good reeervoir.
@@awhahoo lol
Hahaha , it’s a bit like filling yr car up to go on holidays, then returning to the same bowser when yr need to fill up again.
wait, where?
i thought we had none.
auserdem: hallo.
I can only quote my boss: "as long as we can't store electricity in bottles we won't be out of a job". we build powerlines ;)
Actually you can store electricity in bottles, it is called batteries and you can buy them in any stores ;)
@@a64738 AC. vs DC.
@@hairybass480 Inverter exist... The best ones have about 10% loss in the process of converting DC to AC from 12-24 or 48V. I have a small 150W in my car for charging laptop but plan on installing full 48V system with large battery bank, solar panels (as much that can fit on the roof of my box car van) and 2000 - 3000W inverter so I have 220V AC that can run anything up to 16A :)
@@a64738 but no welding...
@@a64738 It is a matter of scale. I Gigawatt at 500,000 volts is 2,000 amps the generating capacity in USA is in excess of 1,000 Gigawatts.
I wish University engineering lectures could always be as interesting as your videos. Keep up the great vids
Well university lecturers have to give you the details, which are not so fun no matter which way you spin them. He just goes over the basics which anyone could get
It's once a formula gets written down, is when the lecture always starts getting uninteresting.
@@electron2601 that is why you should study with people, and talk about interesting implementations on your "free time".
hello again! I have one question: you mentioned energy density of one Lithium Ion battery is equivalent to your bucket 200km above ground. I'm a bit confused here:
- AA Lithium ion at average 1.5V and 2.5Ah (you may have chosen a much larger battery), the energy is: 1.5 x 2.5 x 3600 = 13500 J
- A 10Kg bucket of water would have to be as high as h = 13500 / (10kg x g) = 138 meters, and not 200 km.
Did I do my calculations wrong here? Thanks.
I’m comparing equivalent energy density so you have to compare equivalent volumes of water vs. battery. Sorry that was confusing! I don’t have access to my calcs at work but I’ll double check when I get home.
@@PracticalEngineeringChannel Ah right! So basically you also assumed a water volume the same size as a AA battery. That makes sense. Thanks!
ElectroBOOM
Ooooofffff electroooboooom and all
Use a bathtub or large water trough and place it on a hill at least 200' elevation, then use hard plastic pipe...should be a better setup..
@@PracticalEngineeringChannel What if you use a barrel instead of a bucket to create greater generating power and use several Hydraulic Ram Pumps to pump the water back up to the barrel? Could you run that experiment? If you had enough Hydraulic Ram Pumps going you would constantly have the barrel full without using electricity or any power source to move the water back up to the barrel. Hence, near 100% efficiency. Even if you had the barrel (or water reservoir) much higher up to generate greater power, you could build several Hydraulic Ram Pumps at different heights (at a 1 to 7 lift ratio) with buckets in your case (or smaller reservoirs) to move the water uphill to whatever the desired height.
So in essence, you're moving water uphill without a power source and the power created from the main reservoir would run continuously; which equates to a battery that in being charged at the same time it's being discharged.
One of the best examples I've ever seen of a pumped storage facility is in northwestern South Carolina, the Lake Keowee/Lake Jocassee/Bad Creek system. Lake Keowee is the lowest, and largest lake fed by the Keowee and Little Rivers. Lake Jocassee is 300 feet higher and its 710 megawatt hydro turbines empty into lake Keowee, and can reverse flow to refill the lake. 1200 feet above Lake Jocassee is a third lake, Bad Creek Reservoir, which is fed by Upper and Lower Bad Creeks. Its 1065 megawatt turbines empty into Jocassee and can reverse flow to refill Bad Creek Reservoir.
Lake Keowee itself is a hydro power generator with a 157.5 megawatt capacity, but its main function is to provide sufficient cooling water for the Oconee Nuclear Station's 2538 megawatt reactors. Jocassee and Bad Creek water levels are constantly juggled to keep Lake Keowee at full pond. Lake Keowee's generators serve as the backup power source for Oconee Nuclear Station.
.the way you told the generation vs demand story pretty much sums it up...spot on. and effective use of infographics too...
I have always wondered about this but never looked it up really. Thanks for the video. Like it was tailor made for my curiosity!
Grady, just started watching your channel, love the videos!! You have a great way of explaining complex engineering to the average person in a fun and informative way..Keep up the good work!! Tom Buffalo, NY
Thank you! This video covers something I've been wondering about for a long time.
Awesome video, just found your channel and am really enjoying the work you put into it.
Thanks for the insight, Grady. My choice would be tidal generated power, My DIY solar system fills our needs quite well, and parts failure is backed up well.
Huge respect man, love your dedication
Just discovered this video (10/21). Great stuff.
I have been using a water powered pumped hydro since 2013 as part of an off grid domestic system.
It began using a ram pump and has developed from there. We have approx 800,000 litres in storage now, at approx 24metres head, driving a micro hydro turbine via a 90mm penstock to charge a 40kw 24v battery bank .
The turbine discharges into a storage which is also supplied by various water collection systems on the property. This storage then drives a water powered pump to return it to the upper reservoir. It is one of the most rewarding projects I have under taken at our place.
Congratulations my friend! Not only is it environmentally friendly, but it can be constructed out of materials, mostly from a hardware store. Don't think most people can build a lithium battery from scratch.
Massive respect all around.
You should make a video of it. Sounds cool
The Grande Dixence dam in Switzerland pumps also huge amounts of water from nearby valleys to prevent a loss of energy during low demands times
I'm gonna rewatch just to show support for your integrity.
California: “Man, these reservoirs can store LOTS of Water!”
Mr. Drought: “Oh why hellooooo there. Lots of water you have…would be a shame if someone came along and .. stole it.”
Hi, I'm a bait fish, I need water to exist for no reason, flush all your potable water out to sea...
@@Edwardmodos hi, I’m flint Michigan. What’s potable water again?
@@embers_falling ouch :D
PHES systems reuse the same water over and over again - depending on the upper and lower reservoir.
They require little make-up water - only for evaporation and leakage losses.
This is one off all the resources we need to be working quickly toward as we go forward!👍🏼🖖
I was just watching your spillways video and wondered if you'd talked about this topic before. Sure enough!
8:15 and mores the point if that energy is coming from solar that would otherwise be wasted then its still a net positive
A friend and I built a similar model and found that the (still very low) efficiency was quite a bit better after we took apart the little generator and cleaned up the flashing on the plastic parts to remove obstructions to flow. Ours was intended to demo the automation, so it was PLC controlled with ultrasonic reservoir level monitoring.
second video in a few minutes with you.. didnt really care for the subject, but YOU makes it interesting. Thank you for being such a good narrator. will follow you more
Great video! super informative! I love your channel. Keep making great stuff.
Reupload🤔
Going to watch again❤
well done pulling the ad mate, good decision!
Honestly I do love your work, thank you very much for your educational content
Ludington, Michigan has a large storage system that uses Lake Michigan as it's lower "reservoir" and a lined reservoir built on the shore for the upper one. They also have a viewing deck that overlooks the upper reservoir.
Wow, 70% efficiency is actually really high! Pumped water storage is pretty damned impressive!
Banks Lake is 76% efficient.
@@GH-oi2jf Even better :)
Batteries 🔋 are far better
This battery is genius! It’ll never wear out or break like a chemical battery. We’ve got one in Wales and it uses the natural mountains and lakes.
Informative, thanks. I just saw a video suggesting this is better for the environment than gravity storage based on concrete blocks.
I live near the pumped storage facility in Michigan, and actually play disc golf in a park at the base of the upper reservoir. The lower reservoir is Lake Michigan itself, and when it was built it was the largest facility of it's type in the world. It also features the world's longest fish net as a barrier to keep wildlife out of the turbines.
2.24.23. Near 💁🏻♂️ Ludington Michigan🔃
It's great to hear such a practical explanation of this technology.
In the credits, I doubt the guy's name is actually Erik Språng. You've been bitten by double encoding!
Someone with the last name Gutierréz(sp) too,
grischard? from osm! fancy seeing you here
Erik Språng I recon.
Another great video, thanks for posting!
Wonderful series. Thank you.
HELL yeah for pulling the ad.
I mean I rewatch your videos all the time anyway, so I don't mind watching this again.
I worked for Ameren at a gas fired turbine power plant and Ameren had a pumped storage facility (Tam Sauk) in Missouri. It appears your photo was of it. Something went wrong with the water sensors in 2005. It was over filled and the walls collapsed which flooded the valley with a billion gallons of water that created massive amounts of damage. The facility was run remotely without anyone being on-site.
I work as an engineer at reversible fransis turbine plant.....I am impressed with how he explained the pumping
I would love to see your take on compressed air energy storage (CAES).
If I remember right, the last time I looked up typical efficiency of pneumatic systems it was down around 10%. That is for industrial systems though, not utility storage
It's pretty bad from the standpoint of efficiency.
Ms. D Fong might have to school him on that subject-ruclips.net/video/-QNwGuqh9O0/видео.html
There are two reasons to store energy (locally). Firstly, the obvious one - to be an energy source when needed but the other reason is to provide the quantity when needed - which might not be available from the supply at sufficient rate. CAES being used to start large IC engines. Air can be compressed say over 2 hours at a slow rate then released in 2 seconds at a very fast rate. Not only is this used for starting engines but also fitting tubeless tyres to wheels !
Your integrity is amazing.
If you are searching for video ideas:
Why not do a video on alternativ energy storage methods, like power to gas.
Even less efficient - pumpstorage has a roundtrip efficiency of roughly 70% (or higher), P2gas so far the best lab results where ~70% - ONE Way. There exists quit a few already out in the wild, but their roundtrip efficiency is often lower than 30% even.
It is one way, but one that, with the current technology, is only viable because of the extreme volatility of wind and solar as well as the unreasonable push of those technologies.
Yes - unreasonable as they are so volatile that the endanger the electric power grid of whole countries and in total even increase pollution - great case study for that is germany (where they have many p2Gas facilities because of that).
It is an interesting technology, but imo it should be use for energy storage but rather for energy conversion - there are applications where you do need those chemical fuels and on the long run it is a lot better for the environment to generate the gasses needed from air than pumping them out of the ground.
@@ABaumstumpf yeah
@@ABaumstumpf Wasn't Germany's emissions increase from shutting down nuclear and booting up the coal power again?
@@firstname405 Yes, significantly even so, because while wind and solar are renewable power sources, they are way too volatile and so they now have to run way more fossil-fuel-plants on standby.
Most of the time not even producing energy but they need to be kept running to be able to deliver the power when needed.
The nuclear power was great at providing the base-load very consistently and cheap (and still better for the environment funnily enough)
Better storage methods are needed, but the governments follow the blinded Eco-groups that are driven by outrage and not facts.
There is a nice article on the impact of different energy-sources done by greenpeace - despite their own numbers showing that even Chernobyl is better than Wind-power they say it is evil and should be banned...............
@@ABaumstumpf woah, that's crazy! Do you have a link for the coal plants running as back up but not providing energy? I'm aware of the benefits of nuclear energy but didn't realise they had to stoop THAT low
It's a facinating concept. We will see much more of that sort of thing. In Switzerland, they recently deployed an e-Dumper in collaboration with Komatsu. It is based in a stone pit in mountainous terrain. At the top, it loads 65 metric tons of stone. Whil bringing it downhill, the dumper generates so much energy that it can drive uphill again without any external energy source. The weight of the stones alone power this machine. Perfect efficiency. And the numbers are amazing as well. This machine alone saves us 50000 liters (over 13208 gallons) of Diesel and 130 tons of Co2 each year.
I started taking my scouts to the TVA Raccoon Mt pump storage facility on our trips to summer camp. On one trip prior to 2001, we took the elevator from the upper pool down to the generators. Over 40 floors 20' apart. Total height is near 1000'+. An education before its time.
lower reservoir: deep mine shafts. Upper reservoir: ground-level
Mine shafts are too small. We have one in a slate mine in Wales, UK. Well the pipes and turbines are in the mine, the two reservoirs are in the mountain above and the lake outside.
Working on a pumped hydro storage in Australia and you would not get rhe efficiency you would get from a lower and upper reservoir.
reupload?....rewatched it 😊 just to support your channel 👍
I've been binge watching yer vids and they truly are great!!!!
Pro Tip: check your collar before recording. If it curls up, just spray some water on it and blow dry it hot to flatten the collar.
I grew up 5 miles from one of these facilities. Learned about this technology on a 4th grade field trip. Surprised we don’t utilize these more often but it guess it makes sense that they need to be located in locations with enough excess power for purchase and the potential demand to resell.
My favorite part about Grady is that even though his collar is wonky, he still goes on.
There is also one often ignored "short term" storage of electricity. All the rotating masses connected to the grid via a generator. All the generators and turbines spin synchronised with one and other and can cover large spikes in demand for a short time. This is also one often overlooked problem of wind and solar that they lack this self - auto stabilising effect that is important for a good stable grid.
Very short you need to bring new generation online very quickly to stop the kinetic energy of the turbines being converted into electricity at a faster rate than it is being replenished or the grid frequency will tank pretty sharpish. While you could probably get away with this you will find that grids typically run to rather tight guarantees on frequency (Typically within a 1% margin of error) in part due to the fact that many mains powered devices actually rely on it as a oscillator for synchronisation or timekeeping purposes.
@@seraphina985 Yes this is what I was trying to say. That the kinetic energy is what keeps the grid stable between the load power on and generation increase. My professor had an interesting ted talk about it (Kako zelena je zelena energija? | Rafael Mihalič | TEDxLjubljana) but its in Slovenian.
@@markoantesic4362 Yeah my point was just that this really isn't that big a contribution to storage and in fact a relatively small change to things like solar arrays that don't have rotating parts that could achieve the same effect is a simple flywheel. It wouldn't be that hard to construct a flywheel with the equivalent angular momentum of a steam generator of equivalent capacity. Wind turbines are probably less of an issue in this regard sure a 2MW wind turbine has a much lower RPM than any 2MW generator but this is also compensated by the much higher moment of inertia resulting from the fact the blades are way way longer than the turbine blades of a 2MW steam turbine. I bet the rotating mass is probably easily as large too they are giant machines after all not sure how heavy they are as sure the blades are probably hollow but they must have a lot of structural strength probably way more than needed for the forces they are intended to encounter if the videos I have seen of wind turbines failing due to a brake failure are anything to go by. Granted that's only anecdotal sure but the RPM they seem to get up to before the blades end up buckling snapping or otherwise failing is way above the RPM they are designed for suggesting a large margin of safety built in there.
@@seraphina985 There were flywheels proposed, for complementing renewable, but they are all but simple. Proposed flywheels would use magnetic superconductor bearings(for efficiency), run in vacuum, but as far as I know they have not build any. I was told that there were problems with what happens when the magnetic bearings fail :D Wind turbines are not suitable for storing kinetic energy because they are not directly coupled too the grid va a synchronous generator. Because of the fluctuating rotation speed of the rotor wind turbines need something between the generator and the grid. You have inverter solution that do AC-DC-AC and fancy double feed induction motors. Tho they can provide some storage, they rely on electronics to do so and it can have stability problems, when large amount of electronics each does it separate thing to try and balance the grid.
But yea, if pump storage are the "batteries" then the rotation masses are the "capacitors" for quick dP/dt.
@@markoantesic4362 Yeah sorry I guess I wasn't clear there when I said simple I was talking about a flywheel that would say give a 100MW solar array similar spinning reserve capacity as a 100MW coal plant for example ie seconds for rapid response plants to spin up if in the future there are not enough steam turbines left to perform that role.
There is a lot of untapped potential hydro storage sites and some are much bigger than current installed schemes but the energy mix is not ready for that scale yet they just wouldn't get enough daily volume to produce a profit in a realistic timeframe. A site in Scotland for example could apparently reach 6,800 GWh and 180 GW but that is a peak output that is around 1/3rd of the entire EU's peak recorded demand total and it could supply that for up to a day and a half the market for such doesn't exist yet and the UK grid has nowhere near enough installed export interconnects even if it did.
5:55
everytime I watch this I love this particular animation, so pretty
Great video...i used to think something like this about pumped storage......subscribed
Unlike everyone else in the comments, I don't remember this one. Anyone know approximately when this video was uploaded the first time? Days? Weeks? Months ago?
Regardless, it's one of my favorite topics. Pumping water sounds like a fantastic way to store energy and even out peek usage times. When structures exist to support it, then by all means, use the bejeezus out of it. Pity to those flat plains.
This was originally posted yesterday with a Nord VPN advertisement.
The UK has two in Wales and one in Scotland (I think). The oldest one in Wales, Ffestiniog Power Station, is small, dates from 1963
We demand a chipmunk edit for tomorrow's upload.
Just play it at 2x speed
We had one of those pumped storage facilities fail In the missouri ozarks. It was located in Johnson shut ins state park. The park was nearly destroyed. Thankfully no one was killed
One advantage of a pumped storage scheme is that you can potentially combine it with water transfer from a water rich area to a drier area on the other side of a mountain range (such as the Great Dividing Range in Australia). It however becomes difficult to make decisions on water releases when there are conflicting agricultural and power demands.
its humble request pls provide subtitles, its slightly tough to fully understand your words.sir your all videos are very informative
They are available now (at least to me).
Your inability to not fully understand this video's English without Subtitles has nothing to do with you being an Indian. Just making it clear. Why create unnecessary stereotypes.
in the box sub titles there is a page of 180 languages choose one i do when its in Taiwanese.
A good reminder that electricity ain't magic. there are complex compromises to all things
Pumped hydro is proven technology, but you end up losing 20% to 30% of the energy you store.
@@jessstuart7495 still better than 100% , don't you think ? ;)
@@MakisHMMY,
That's a bad comparison (100% loss). You can't lose energy you don't generate.
@@jessstuart7495 But you may just as well (e.g. solar)
This is one of THE BEST applications of Human engineering.....it is pure benefit, at minimal cost and environmental impact. It is 'renewable' over thousands of cycles, THIS is what engineering is all about: Improving the world without impacting the world!
Nice one Brady! Please focus on 'renewables', they ARE the new CIVIL, MECHANICAL, ELECTRICAL, MECHATRONIC, CHEMICAL , engineering endeavours... many challenges, hopefully many responsible solutions . ENGINEER EVERYTHING!!
Your thumbnail and 4:21 is the Taum Sauk reservoir (part of a pumped storage facility) in Missouri. It failed in 2005, and all of the water spilled out and washed away hundreds of acres of forest, also destroying a good portion of Johnson Shut-Ins State Park. The utility has since re-built and modernized the reservoir and power plant, and it continues to operate today.
All great until the storage lake fails. The failure in Missouri destroyed the Johnson Shut-Ins. Cant believe you didnt mention it, hate to say it but engineers do fail sometimes.
It wasn't the engineering that failed at Taum Sauk, it was choosing to disregard instrumentation that caused the failure.
0:12
"Wind and solar are becoming more cost effective, but they'll always be unreliable and intermittent sources of energy."
Subbed.
What if we use space solar. The only prob I can think of is transmission then.
@@mohammedraheem6288 Just that pesky lil transmission kerfluffle...
Haha, that's kind of a massive issue particularly considering the Earth rotates while orbiting our star, while tilted.
I mean I'd be all for it, but... We aren't close to an applicable technological solution.
@Claptrap Jesus well if we can find all the materials to produce the photovoltaic panels in outer space, then we would not need to send every panel from Earth's surface.
You might wanna have a look at Norway's case - I believe they have numerous Pump storage facilities, with turbines in the valleys, normally running on melting water from the mountains. They usually buy surplus wind energy from Denmark at a very low price, and sell back hydroelectric energy to the danes during peak periods... Smart way to make a lot of money
I spent a week at Bath County pumped storage when it was being built inspecting switchgear. Totally awesome. I’ve been in nuc, oil, gas and coal plants but this was staggering.
Yes I walked the tunnels briefly on a visit to Bath when it was under construction. An 18 wheeler could have been rolled into one.
Would love to see some future content on renewables, viability of nuclear energy in the future, hydrogen fuel etc. As an engineer i love learning about this stuff and other engineering disciplines. It's always interesting to see what other people get up to. Cheers
Wonder what the conversion efficiency would look like to electrolyze water and then burn the hydrogen again... hmm
DFPercush I don’t have numbers, but its about equally if not less efficient than this.
DFPercush Would be better for small scale though just due to the space requirements and infrastructure.
@@DFPercush Watch the video on hydrogen on the channel Real Engineering, there he goes about the values...
@@DFPercush Hydrogen is a bad idea, it's very difficult to store and to handle. Much better to use carbohydrates, much denser and usually liquid at room temperature. You can get the CO2 to make them from air or water, there's plenty.
Try find "Dlouhe strane" in mountain of Czech Republic, there is beautiful gravity battery of two lakes in mountains. It cost $0.27 bil., done 1996, after 6 years make clear profit.
Or "Chaira" in Bulgaria. It has an enormous 700 meters difference between the upper and the lower reservoirs.
Your channel is great , im a electric engineer, and that simple and on the point i see for the first time 😉
Racoon mountain is the pump storage place near me. I've went on tour for my pipe fitters class a few years ago. It's built inside a mountain and uses the Tennessee River at the bottom and a lake at the top of the mountain. It's really cool.
A hydro dam stores the rivers energy till the grid need it. So storage without the pumping.
Works great if you're on a reliably-flowing river. Can't always count on that, though.
Yay for getting rid of the VPN ads! At long last!
I'm pumped about this video!
The hydro electric gravity damn built on taum sauk in missouri is pretty big and it had a big spill back in the day and left a scar on the side of the hill leading down to the nearby town by uprooting a bunch of trees, pretty grazy
I'm here to like the video again :D
I really like the research into other ways to store energy than batteries
your videos are always top notch. i have to laugh though when you build a model for every topic- you love engineering!
Thank you. Awesome work
I thought I came up with this idea in 10th grade! Then my science teacher let me know it was already a thing. Still not used in enough areas though.
Also I don’t mind the ads, usually just skip em. Go out and get that money
Pumped Storage-cum-generation systems function as extremely inefficient "batteries" because they involve two inefficient conversions (a) pumping water uphill and (b) regeneration by hydel. When you combine this two stage conversion, the overall inefficiency is the product of the two inefficiencies. As a strategy this is therefore less likely to succeed.
Instead, particularly in monsoon lands like South Asia, if water is pumped up and drained out only for irrigation, then you double the system efficiency making it viable.
Next, COMPLETELY dedicate all existing solar and wind generation ONLY to uphill pumping of monsoon rainwater from flood plains, into storage lakes at different altitudes, and intermittence of operation becomes inconsequential. And you do not need batteries any more!
With reference to the Indian situation, there are additional facilitating conditions and benefits. Central India is a plateau - will allow artificial lakes at different altitudes, strategically located over roughly 30% of the Country's area and networked with metre dia or larger pipelines. Lakes with unlined bottom will also allow slow recharging of severely depleted aquifers.
In most other countries, where the seasonality of monsoon or need for large irrigation demands do not crucial factors in water system design use this intermittent power source to raise level of drinking water supply, industrial use, etc into massive overhead water tanks.
Other gravity based storage coming online:
- ARES
- Energy Vault
One of your example pics is right by my house. Irl the upper reservoir is kind of terrifying. It's a little mortifying to see a perfectly circular man made pit a hundred feet deep but it really gives you a sense of scale.
Enter TVA in 1970 began building Raccoon Mountain Pump Storage Project, long before this idea had been discussed. Completed in 1978, it has been providing peak power since then. Every other year or so, we take the boy scouts by there on our camping trips. It provides a lot more electricity than some of TVA's dam's. The great advantage is that unlike a dam, that collects sediment over time, pump storage doesn't. And it doesn't take away a river for recreational opportunities.
What about lifting something more dense than water for small-scale - like lead, iron, concrete - like the weights in old clocks
Gears and winches and weights cost more than water and dams and you can use water for other things Electric trains on an incline are being used with disused equipment and the carriages can be loaded with rocks
For hydroplant and river management, we have large and dvevelopped ways to drive water down (and up) in large scale. We don't really have anything in that scale for regular lifting and lowering of other, solid masses. Also, the density would be just a bit more in most realistic type, stone or concrete may be about twice as dense, and using iron or other metal are not realistic, the cost would be too much. Also, water need little to no maintenance and cheap, even concrete would need some maintenance and replacement, and way more costly.
Energy Vault, a Swiss startup that’s using cranes and concrete to store energy.
Look it up
Sometimes called gravel trains. Use energy to drive train cars full of rock up a hill, then use regenerative braking when power is needed.
Water is free. Lead, iron and concrete isn't.
Wow, I went on that energy map then google earth. There's a huge pumped storage plant in Ludington Michigan (2 GW).
Yup... beautiful summer vacation area... great hunting and fishing and lots of Lake Michigan beaches. Hope to retire there some day.
I'm glad I found someone in the comments talking about the Ludington Pumped Storage Facility! I was disappointed when it wasn't mentioned in the video.
My dad and I spent some vacation weekends about an hour east of there when I was younger, and one day when we were out on the beach near the Ludington pier, he pointed south along the shore at some strange structure in the distance. It looked like a giant four-legged creature standing on the shoreline. I made a lot of very wrong guesses, and he wouldn't tell me what it was. Then we got in the car and drove south, parked, and then climbed a hill for a bit. When we got to the top, I was awestruck. Nearly 3.5-square-kilometers of water, on a hill. The weird structure he had pointed out in the distance was the crane that sits on top of the outflow gantry, so that water can be drained from various depths.
If you ever happen to be in the area, it is an awesome place to visit. Seeing it in person, its sheer size is almost incomprehensible.
China Japan and the US have the most PHES capacity for above 1GW sized installations.
Excellent demonstration of the value of engineering. The tanks were small, the connecting pipe way to small and the turbo pump very inefficient. That the demo worked at all is amazing.
Actual pumped storage plants operate with an overall efficiency of 70 to 80%.
@@JorgTheElder so what? Land is cheap and water even cheaper. The concrete and the machinery are an up front cost. Fortunately we do not have to build these things in cities although that could be done.
Really interesting subject re-found this not to long ago and in grand scale its about each household being able to store/create power to meet its needs efficiently. Its the whole LED vs Fluro light debate
Interesting addition to this in small scale i managed to use the gravity siphon technique to refill the top area so there was less loss overall when creating power but doesn't scale up very well (i was trying for a low maintenance fish pond with water feature)