105GB?! I'll pass until I actually have something to support all that! But all in all, you've covered this library with exceptional nuance and care. Even though you've shown a fondness for the Cinematic Studio Series, you aren't biased; that's one more on a list of reasons why every aspiring composer should give you a watch. :D
7:03 UGH YES, thank you, Cory. That was the first thing I noticed within seconds of noodling through my first patch load. Master Solo Woodwinds by Auddict also suffer tremendously from this, it's something that holds both of them back considerably. edit: I would really enjoy if these libraries had EW Hollywood-series-esque controls over individual layers used per patch, and being able to affect the attack and decay of said layers. This library is super good (as is MSW), but just this ability could make this library unstoppable.
Very constructive feedback. Great video, Cory! I also notice a bit of the bleeding between Legato notes that you mentioned, and ESPECIALLY the issue of reaching the Fast legato makes my fingers hurt haha. Still looking very much forward to using this library during my composer journey :)
Thank you for your another detailed spotlight. Could I ask.. I've been wanting to use real instruments for a long time but so far I have a low money (long-term since after graduated I worked for some time (where money covered mostly utility and transport costs) and halfway through corona I lost a job) and since most of them I have are not very good quality nor flexible (most are free) I'm kind of stuck. Would you recommend a library or sound processing (to learn) methods (teacher/course/playlist)? From what I've come across (looked up on net on collections or universal big-band/orchestra instrument packages) Sonokinetic's DaCapo seems to perform amazing overall with more than enough flexibility but I'd like to be more sure if I were to invest Thank you for your time and effort :)
Hmm, that's a difficult one. The more affordable all in one options usually have downsides - for example The Orchestra 2 from Sonuscore is great for sketching and composers starting out but you won't get any decent legatos. It's usually a case of having to buy separate smaller packages to cover different sections. You may like Nucleus from Audio Imperia, however. As far as all in one packages go it offers professional quality and covers enough instruments to create scores with on its own. Then to cover all the orchestral percussion you can grab True Strike from Project SAM at $150, which I've used happily for years.
@@CoryPelizzari Neat. By the way, I and some other users have pointed out the flute (and possibly some others too?) tend to go quite sharp. Have you noticed this causing any issues with other Instruments? The flute ff dynamic can be up to 25 cents sharp in my experience which makes layering with other flutes quite weird
@@Tremendouz I have noticed the players can really push the top dynamic. It's not uncommon, but it can be weird in cases where you're trying to match notes at full dynamic. I'll have to go through and see which instruments hit which notes a little harsher.
@@Tremendouz I've noticed the the tuning discrepancies between the dynamic layers as well and wondered about that-I think it's kind of realistic and with other libraries the dynamics feel dead because of this being evened out. It's to the point where I will use the pitchwheel to simulate this rather natural phenomenon. It's been a few days since I last played with CSW, but does the pitchwheel work with the instruments? Powerful tuning-on-the-fly tool if you need to correct the sharpness/flatness.
@@piercehacquard4747 Sadly pitch wheel doesn't work. The issue with the tuning differences is that they make the crossfades a bit weird sometimes, like the flute suddenly going down or up a few cents when the dynamic layer changes
The "bleeding effect" you mention is frustrating. I imagine it will be fixed, yes, but it's made the solo clarinet unusable in the first project for which I was hoping to use CSW. It sounds like a sloppy mess for my specific use.
I found I've had to use either just the close mic or the OH mic with a good dollop of reverb to wash that bleed away. Fingers crossed this video helps them zone in on the problem and patch it.
I own Berlin Woodwinds Revived including all expansion. Is it worth it to buy CSW as well? I am confused because I don’t know what to do. I would never replace BW but maybe complement. What is your opinion on that matter? (So long as you have BW to compare.)
I don't have Berlin Woodwinds so I can't really compare. I've heard a lot of examples though and I can say that CSW has a much more emotive or "cinematic" legato sound rather than a classical one and the transitions are longer and more pronounced.
That's not an equal comparison as they're both totally different styles of library. But either way I'm going to be choosing CSW because true legato and vibrato for woodwinds (when done well) is too good to pass up.
@@PiotrSurmacz Infinite Woodwinds is recorded bone dry and without vibrato or legato transitions, then the convolutions and vibrato are added in Kontakt and the transitions are mimicked. The result doesn't sound quite as genuine as a deep sampled woodwind instrument, but the playability is second to none. On the other hand Cinematic Studio Woodwinds has true recordings of multiple mic positions, vibrato and legato, which makes the instruments sound more like a live recording, but it's harder to play and program. So for example you might use a flute from Infinite Woodwinds to sketch out the performance you want on the keyboard, then replace that with a closely resembling performance using Cinematic Studio Woodwinds for the final product for complete realism.
Interesting. This has some of the same issues that EWQL HOW does with phasing and sloppy legato, issues which are still present so many years later. I remember one of the developers addressed the issue, mentioning that the nature of the woodwinds' tone makes different samples impossible to perfectly align from one given sample to potentially any other at any time. Twice is a pattern, so now I must wonder what insane wizardry Orchestral Tools did with Berlin WW to get it so perfect. It could have everything to do with the recordings, which would mean CSW could have these issues forever.
More or less the same problem as Hollywood WW but not as bad. The biggest caveat for me is this, they all sound too clean and too compressed less lively in dynamics and tonality. Berlin WW and BBC has darker and livelier feelings and less overly clean sound which makes it more realistic. Slight imperfection is perfect ! Hands down on the review.
I knew there was a way around this cookie... It does sound nice tbh but it does have flaws to fix his like any other winds library. If it isn't the micros then it's the lack of winds numbers in all honesty.
To me the fact that I can't blend in vibrato while playing is almost a deal breaker. I think especially for woodwinds, this is one of the most important tools of conveying emotion and phrasing. I'm a little surprised to see this in a 2020 library. Even my Spitfire studio woodwinds pro can do it. BTW thank you very much for your excellent videos, Cory!
@@apocryphal_man Yes it is a deal breaker especially for solos. Spitfire Studio Woodwinds Pro need to fix the brass lib though. The phasing issues are massive in the library. I love the sounds when I play with it but the phasing issues in the 4 horns sect and sometimes solo horn is scary when introducing the mod wheel.
@@Metalpazallteway Yeah that library is a mess. You have to play it like a survival horror game to get the most out of it. For the pro brass and pro woodwinds legatos I've developed a special routine just for getting them to sound up to par for a recording. It's nerve racking to be honest and requires split second timing on the modwheel.
@@CoryPelizzari Yes I wish Spitfire would revamp the library but that would require major fixes and be time consuming for almost an entire production since major alterations would be involved for a library that wouldn't need keyswitching involved too. But that would amazing if they did
I would understand it if Alex considered this unusually precise microsope review a little unfair, compared to other woodwinds library reviews :D Infinite Woodwinds has phasing issues too, but in this review, you go look for them and make a specific segment about the flaws. I love that, every one of your viewers love that, but I also think it's objectively unfair to criticise a library more because of the higher standard the rest of the CS series puts it in.
Exposing the flaws is a factual, evidence based thing and has nothing to do with my personal taste or attitude. I don't just point at something and say it's flawed - I explain why the flaw exists and what can be done to improve it. If you didn't notice, I also mention often that I think the library is better than most woodwinds libraries. Loving a library enough to want to help it to become the best it can be is not "objectively unfair". There are issues in the library that, if fixed in further updates, can make this library so much more pristine, rather than just sweeping it under the carpet and not caring. If I didn't care, I would have just made the first video and left it at that.
@@Nicdehouwer I honestly think they can. I believe the samples are high quality but it's the script and programming that's holding those release notes and legato cutoff's back, as well as the low dynamic volume boost. With a bit of elbow grease I think those could be minimised or fixed completely.
@@CoryPelizzari I know this review was made in perfectly good faith. I think what I meant was, you should highlight the problems more often with other libraries. It's good that you do it here.
@@Nicdehouwer The reason a lot of other libraries don't get my special attention is because I'm not as heavily invested in them or don't believe the issues will affect my workflow in a way that requires an update (for example, I highly doubt Cinematic Studio Percussion will be a difficult library to quality control). The main reason, however, is that companies like Spitfire, Orchestral Tools and other mainstream publishers don't care about their product much after it's hit the shelves. Their level of QA and their response to customers' feedback about their libraries are disheartening to say the least, so the flaws kind of come as an expected part of the package. However, if I were to make a video for Berlin Woodwinds, rest assured I'll be very critical indeed, considering its price and its marketing as the best thing since sliced bread... I've done it before with things like Hollywood Choirs, Symphony Series Strings and Spitfire's Studio Brass.
I personally never used banjo in my music but I understand why people would buy it. People buy things that they like to use, like woodwinds. Or banjo. Or kazoo.
'Cause those instruments are so rich in colours and a lot of people love it. I'm one of them and woodwinds are all over my compositions if not the central interest. ...Tastes... (I might use banjo...)
It might not be very obvious always but even when an orchestra is playing big block chords, the woodwinds are an important part of the sound. They just add a lovely layer to it, especially the flutes
It is difficult to orchestrate for them, but once you understand the possibilities of this section of the orchestra you will actually realize that 100 gb is perhaps the bare minimum. They can do anything from soloing to blending with other particular sections, reinforce brass, giving light to strings, you name it! Looking to some interesting classical piece score and how it develops the woodwinds section part could be extremely helpful. One major example could be Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker suite. If you don't use them you're really missing out IMHO!
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
105GB?! I'll pass until I actually have something to support all that!
But all in all, you've covered this library with exceptional nuance and care. Even though you've shown a fondness for the Cinematic Studio Series, you aren't biased; that's one more on a list of reasons why every aspiring composer should give you a watch. :D
Thanks Cory for addressing the non vib issue as well as the other issues. Instruments sound so beautiful, I can live with these imperfections.
7:03 UGH YES, thank you, Cory. That was the first thing I noticed within seconds of noodling through my first patch load. Master Solo Woodwinds by Auddict also suffer tremendously from this, it's something that holds both of them back considerably.
edit: I would really enjoy if these libraries had EW Hollywood-series-esque controls over individual layers used per patch, and being able to affect the attack and decay of said layers. This library is super good (as is MSW), but just this ability could make this library unstoppable.
Great review. Finally a reviewer with lots of technical knowledge!
Another great review. Honest and fair, no BS. Thanks for your hard work!
Very constructive feedback. Great video, Cory! I also notice a bit of the bleeding between Legato notes that you mentioned, and ESPECIALLY the issue of reaching the Fast legato makes my fingers hurt haha. Still looking very much forward to using this library during my composer journey :)
Thanks For another honest review
You know how many of those issues have been address in v.1.3? Anyone?
I hope Alex W. sees this video!
Hi Cory - a couple months on I was wondering if CSW had received updates to address some of the issue you talk about here? Thanks :)
Cinematic studio woodwinds and infinite woodwinds，which one should I buy ?
Thank you for your another detailed spotlight. Could I ask.. I've been wanting to use real instruments for a long time but so far I have a low money (long-term since after graduated I worked for some time (where money covered mostly utility and transport costs) and halfway through corona I lost a job) and since most of them I have are not very good quality nor flexible (most are free) I'm kind of stuck.
Would you recommend a library or sound processing (to learn) methods (teacher/course/playlist)?
From what I've come across (looked up on net on collections or universal big-band/orchestra instrument packages) Sonokinetic's DaCapo seems to perform amazing overall with more than enough flexibility but I'd like to be more sure if I were to invest
Thank you for your time and effort :)
Hmm, that's a difficult one. The more affordable all in one options usually have downsides - for example The Orchestra 2 from Sonuscore is great for sketching and composers starting out but you won't get any decent legatos. It's usually a case of having to buy separate smaller packages to cover different sections. You may like Nucleus from Audio Imperia, however. As far as all in one packages go it offers professional quality and covers enough instruments to create scores with on its own. Then to cover all the orchestral percussion you can grab True Strike from Project SAM at $150, which I've used happily for years.
Thank you for this superb review Cory ! What do you think about CSW in front of Synchronized woodwinds from VSL ?
I haven't used those so I can't really compare. Maybe some users of both on VI Control forums could tell you what they think?
@@CoryPelizzari
Thank you for your quick feedback I hope that some subscribers to the channel will be able to respond
I totally agree about everything you said here, almost tempted to email this video to Alex haha
Don't worry, I already did.
@@CoryPelizzari Neat. By the way, I and some other users have pointed out the flute (and possibly some others too?) tend to go quite sharp. Have you noticed this causing any issues with other Instruments? The flute ff dynamic can be up to 25 cents sharp in my experience which makes layering with other flutes quite weird
@@Tremendouz I have noticed the players can really push the top dynamic. It's not uncommon, but it can be weird in cases where you're trying to match notes at full dynamic. I'll have to go through and see which instruments hit which notes a little harsher.
@@Tremendouz I've noticed the the tuning discrepancies between the dynamic layers as well and wondered about that-I think it's kind of realistic and with other libraries the dynamics feel dead because of this being evened out. It's to the point where I will use the pitchwheel to simulate this rather natural phenomenon. It's been a few days since I last played with CSW, but does the pitchwheel work with the instruments? Powerful tuning-on-the-fly tool if you need to correct the sharpness/flatness.
@@piercehacquard4747 Sadly pitch wheel doesn't work. The issue with the tuning differences is that they make the crossfades a bit weird sometimes, like the flute suddenly going down or up a few cents when the dynamic layer changes
Great job, Cory.
The "bleeding effect" you mention is frustrating. I imagine it will be fixed, yes, but it's made the solo clarinet unusable in the first project for which I was hoping to use CSW. It sounds like a sloppy mess for my specific use.
I found I've had to use either just the close mic or the OH mic with a good dollop of reverb to wash that bleed away. Fingers crossed this video helps them zone in on the problem and patch it.
I love your reviews :) .. one question please wich librarys you prefer studio woodwinds from spitfire audio or this one, cinematic studio woodwinds?
Cinematic Studio Woodwinds definitely. I've been relying on it for all my tracks lately.
@@CoryPelizzari thank you. I think same.
Amazing Work ✌️
I own Berlin Woodwinds Revived including all expansion. Is it worth it to buy CSW as well? I am confused because I don’t know what to do. I would never replace BW but maybe complement.
What is your opinion on that matter? (So long as you have BW to compare.)
I don't have Berlin Woodwinds so I can't really compare. I've heard a lot of examples though and I can say that CSW has a much more emotive or "cinematic" legato sound rather than a classical one and the transitions are longer and more pronounced.
@@CoryPelizzari Okay, thank you anyway!
By the way, I love your content!
nice! I have found a purpose to achieve.
Cinematic Studio Woodwinds or Infinite Woodwinds? Choose one.
That's not an equal comparison as they're both totally different styles of library. But either way I'm going to be choosing CSW because true legato and vibrato for woodwinds (when done well) is too good to pass up.
@@CoryPelizzari could you give short hint why & how they are "totally" different? I'm still thinking of getting one if them.
@@PiotrSurmacz Infinite Woodwinds is recorded bone dry and without vibrato or legato transitions, then the convolutions and vibrato are added in Kontakt and the transitions are mimicked. The result doesn't sound quite as genuine as a deep sampled woodwind instrument, but the playability is second to none. On the other hand Cinematic Studio Woodwinds has true recordings of multiple mic positions, vibrato and legato, which makes the instruments sound more like a live recording, but it's harder to play and program. So for example you might use a flute from Infinite Woodwinds to sketch out the performance you want on the keyboard, then replace that with a closely resembling performance using Cinematic Studio Woodwinds for the final product for complete realism.
Interesting. This has some of the same issues that EWQL HOW does with phasing and sloppy legato, issues which are still present so many years later. I remember one of the developers addressed the issue, mentioning that the nature of the woodwinds' tone makes different samples impossible to perfectly align from one given sample to potentially any other at any time.
Twice is a pattern, so now I must wonder what insane wizardry Orchestral Tools did with Berlin WW to get it so perfect. It could have everything to do with the recordings, which would mean CSW could have these issues forever.
More or less the same problem as Hollywood WW but not as bad. The biggest caveat for me is this, they all sound too clean and too compressed less lively in dynamics and tonality. Berlin WW and BBC has darker and livelier feelings and less overly clean sound which makes it more realistic. Slight imperfection is perfect !
Hands down on the review.
Some high notes are really hard for listening, having too much high end.
I knew there was a way around this cookie... It does sound nice tbh but it does have flaws to fix his like any other winds library. If it isn't the micros then it's the lack of winds numbers in all honesty.
To me the fact that I can't blend in vibrato while playing is almost a deal breaker. I think especially for woodwinds, this is one of the most important tools of conveying emotion and phrasing. I'm a little surprised to see this in a 2020 library. Even my Spitfire studio woodwinds pro can do it. BTW thank you very much for your excellent videos, Cory!
@@apocryphal_man Yes it is a deal breaker especially for solos. Spitfire Studio Woodwinds Pro need to fix the brass lib though. The phasing issues are massive in the library. I love the sounds when I play with it but the phasing issues in the 4 horns sect and sometimes solo horn is scary when introducing the mod wheel.
@@Metalpazallteway Yeah that library is a mess. You have to play it like a survival horror game to get the most out of it. For the pro brass and pro woodwinds legatos I've developed a special routine just for getting them to sound up to par for a recording. It's nerve racking to be honest and requires split second timing on the modwheel.
@@CoryPelizzari Yes I wish Spitfire would revamp the library but that would require major fixes and be time consuming for almost an entire production since major alterations would be involved for a library that wouldn't need keyswitching involved too. But that would amazing if they did
@@CoryPelizzari Yes, the brass is ...
I would understand it if Alex considered this unusually precise microsope review a little unfair, compared to other woodwinds library reviews :D
Infinite Woodwinds has phasing issues too, but in this review, you go look for them and make a specific segment about the flaws.
I love that, every one of your viewers love that, but I also think it's objectively unfair to criticise a library more because of the higher standard the rest of the CS series puts it in.
Exposing the flaws is a factual, evidence based thing and has nothing to do with my personal taste or attitude. I don't just point at something and say it's flawed - I explain why the flaw exists and what can be done to improve it. If you didn't notice, I also mention often that I think the library is better than most woodwinds libraries. Loving a library enough to want to help it to become the best it can be is not "objectively unfair". There are issues in the library that, if fixed in further updates, can make this library so much more pristine, rather than just sweeping it under the carpet and not caring. If I didn't care, I would have just made the first video and left it at that.
@@CoryPelizzari that's very true, IF these flaws can be patched out :)
@@Nicdehouwer I honestly think they can. I believe the samples are high quality but it's the script and programming that's holding those release notes and legato cutoff's back, as well as the low dynamic volume boost. With a bit of elbow grease I think those could be minimised or fixed completely.
@@CoryPelizzari I know this review was made in perfectly good faith. I think what I meant was, you should highlight the problems more often with other libraries. It's good that you do it here.
@@Nicdehouwer The reason a lot of other libraries don't get my special attention is because I'm not as heavily invested in them or don't believe the issues will affect my workflow in a way that requires an update (for example, I highly doubt Cinematic Studio Percussion will be a difficult library to quality control). The main reason, however, is that companies like Spitfire, Orchestral Tools and other mainstream publishers don't care about their product much after it's hit the shelves. Their level of QA and their response to customers' feedback about their libraries are disheartening to say the least, so the flaws kind of come as an expected part of the package. However, if I were to make a video for Berlin Woodwinds, rest assured I'll be very critical indeed, considering its price and its marketing as the best thing since sliced bread... I've done it before with things like Hollywood Choirs, Symphony Series Strings and Spitfire's Studio Brass.
Good review but 105 GB for woodwinds? Dunno why u guys would buy it but I personally never ever used woodwinds in my tracks
I personally never used banjo in my music but I understand why people would buy it. People buy things that they like to use, like woodwinds. Or banjo. Or kazoo.
'Cause those instruments are so rich in colours and a lot of people love it. I'm one of them and woodwinds are all over my compositions if not the central interest. ...Tastes... (I might use banjo...)
It might not be very obvious always but even when an orchestra is playing big block chords, the woodwinds are an important part of the sound. They just add a lovely layer to it, especially the flutes
You should at least give using woodwinds a try, they really can give arrangements new colors :P
It is difficult to orchestrate for them, but once you understand the possibilities of this section of the orchestra you will actually realize that 100 gb is perhaps the bare minimum. They can do anything from soloing to blending with other particular sections, reinforce brass, giving light to strings, you name it! Looking to some interesting classical piece score and how it develops the woodwinds section part could be extremely helpful. One major example could be Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker suite. If you don't use them you're really missing out IMHO!