I have learned SO MUCH from you and Mr. Carlson's Lab that wasn't covered in all the electronics courses in school ! Nitty-gritty nuts 'n' bolts stuff not in the textbooks. Thanks ever so.!
OK I play guitar, and have swapped out a lot of NOS tubes in the V1 position Of my tube amps, in order to change the tone. Absolutely makes a huge difference, but I am so glad to hear that perhaps somebody is making good tubes in the present, that will not continue to cost me an arm and a leg. So glad that there are people who are continuing to analyze tube technology. I subscribed!
You are the absolute KING of debunking snake oil . At 70 years of age and into high end audio since I was a kid, via my father, this snake oil never stops. EVERYTHING you said is correct. My other pet peeve is cables and interconnects. Been there, done that.
I tried high end cables costing (censored)- because the price was obscene. What did I get? Cables that simply rolled off treble. Like a very expensive filter.
The tube damper worked in my guitar amp. The problem was most likely that the metal retainer was vibrating against the glass and causing unwanted noise. They were like a dollar for 2 I think.
i got a cheap twin tube 50w with good quality tube upgrades. and yes they ring, but i dont like the flatness with the silicone bands. it definately makes a diffetence to my ears but then im sensitive to fine details.
Hi Mark, you hit the nail on the head! All snake oil. I've been an electronics technician since I was 13 and I've seen it all. Many newly manufactured tubes are as good if not better than NOS. There's a lot of factors involved with the actual applications that tubes are used in. I repair a lot of vintage electronics...not only hi-fi, but guitar amplifiers, both vintage and new. Newly manufactured tubes, from my experience over the years don't hold up as well in guitar amps. The tubes are put under severe stress as opposed to hi-fi applications. There are many tubes made today that aren't reliable for guitar amp use. Guitar amps made nowadays are biased very hot and as we both know shortens the life of a tube; mainly output tubes. As you said, vibration is one of the issues along with them being over-driven to the point where the plates buckle, or the glass envelope melts. I've had many EL-34's that had holes in the side, or top of the glass. I do agree with you that the Sovtek 12AX7's are a good pick. Also, there are times where I get a shipment of theses tubes where out of 2 dozen, I MIGHT get 3 that are quiet. When you can play a tune on the tops of the tubes, you're in trouble. From my experience, I've had very good luck with JAN tubes in a preamp section. They were made well and are made to rigid standards. I could go on for hours, but to keep it short, newly manufactured tubes are a dice roll when it comes to instrument amplifiers. I had a very bad run of new Tung-Sol tubes where I've sent back dozens at a time either because of them being duds right out of the box, or failed shortly after installing them. Excellent video, keep on keeping it real. PS: I will not do repairs for audiophools...oops, I mean philes :) You end up getting married to them, and they are never satisfied. it's not worth the problems, no matter how wealthy they may be.
Frank Ferraro, you have highlighted another tube problem: "recycled" brand names, bought up by some corporation that uses the name on Chinese or Russian tubes where it isn't readily apparent to the non-knowledgeable end user that there were once Tung-Sol tubes and now there are "Tung-Sol" tubes that may or may not bear much or any relation to the original engineering, materials and mechanical-construction aspects that made those original tubes so rugged and good sounding in the first place. Like say buying a modern repro "Supro" , I bet they all have printed circuit boards (and none have 6973 output tubes either) ; ditto for a " '65 reissue Deluxe Reverb, with PC boards....and now that somebody has "reissued" "Magnatone"- branded amps, I'd love to see a picture of the inside of those if anyone can take/post some , not to mention a schematic.....I expect to see PC boards and lots of channel switching and boost circuits and other stuff that doesn't really belong in there! I'd also bet that some of these modern tubes are getting rebranded by unscrupulous sellers who remove the "made in Russia" (or China) markings and attempt to pass them off as vintage. If a modern tube looks enough like the originals, you can bet somebody will pull scams with them. The manufacturers should *etch* all markings onto the glass with acid.
@@goodun6081 It's easy to tell that the new Tung-Sol tubes aren't US made. If you've ever seen the new 6550's, the glass bottle is shaped differently and is easy to tell, The new Tungs aren't even close to the appearance or performance of the originals. Yes, many of the new reissue amps use PCB's instead of P2P wiring. The traces are paper thin, burn easily and blow apart easily if a tube shorts. The tube sockets are mounted directly to the boards which I don't condone. I've had to replace entire circuit boards due to heat, and tubes shorting and creating an electronic charcoal haven. Many of the Fender Blues Jr amps come in with these issues and I've stripped them of these cheesy boards and done a P2P rewire. Biasing the EL-84's at 40+ mA doesn't help either. They don't make amps like they used to. When you compare a vintage Magnatone to a reissue, and see them side by side, Its nauseating.
@@djfrank59 , I fix vintage audio gear for a living, both solid state and Tube equipment, and I've worked on a bunch of unusual guitar amps as well including some of the oddballs like Magnatone, Premier , Danelectro, etc, and Fenders of course ( including a transitional 56-57 Bassman). I HATE the use of PC boards in tube amps, especially tube guitar amps. Yes, I've seen the same issues you have. Fender in particular should be ashamed at the PCB-based amps they've been building for years.
@@djfrank59 I am not a working tech. I work on my stuff, friends stuff and have built at least 6 amps. I repaired a Fender Excellsior. Great concept, shitty execution. The cheapest wire and pc board I have ever seen. For an extra $100 fender could have made hand wired boards. However, I built a 5E3 clone and used the Tubedepot pcb. A true piece of art. Sturdy and great traces. I had a Peavey Classic 30 and the pcb boards were made like a cage. JUNK!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@ericr5431 Fender has laid too many eggs with their newer line including the classic reissues. In fact a lot of those newer amps are on the DNR list (Do not repair) for authorized warranty centers. Peavey isn't making amps like they used to. China has taken over their manufacturing. Tube Depot amp kits are really well designed and are rugged. My friend Robert Hull designed those kits.
I built a Heathkit integrated amp in 1962. That was my last involvement with tubes until recently when I got a new amp that uses tubes in the pre-amp. I tend to be a doubter in much of the audiophile stuff. This was an excellent explanation of these ideas.
Please don't feel bashed and smashed over this one, Been fixing tube amps and everything else for 40 years and 100% agree with you and your comments , like your video very much , makes a lot of sense. Keep up the good work lol Bill
I agree with most of what you say other than the dampers.....they do in fact reduce vibrations the same way a harmonic balancer does on an engine, or touching something that vibrates stops or dampens the vibration.....it even works in a similar fashion to double glazed windows.........anything that can reduce to transfer of vibration/sound to the tube elements will have a positive effect.......not all vibration is started inside the tube itself or its mechanical connection to another vibrating part....if you can tap the tube and hear it in the output and then hold the tube with your hand and tap it again and its reduced you can reduce microphonics with some for of damping.......the more weight an object has also has a damping effect......the only this I will say though, is you have to have the problem for any damping to work to any degree.
I had a Blackstar HT Club 40. Turned up very loud, there was a rattle coming through the speaker. It turned out the springs on the power valve clamps (which had rubber rings where they touched the valves) were touching the glass and vibrating. I cut up some silicon sheet from a kitchen geegaw my wife had bought, and used it to space the springs away from the valves. This solved the problem, so I'm inclined to agree that removing unwanted valve vibration should prevent odd noises. Whether it improves 'tone' is moot though.
Under high stress vibration it may help but it cannot ever ever stop INTERNAL vibration of a tube. I'm friggin possible. Especially in hi fi applications. On a guitar amp its possible some vibration may be reduced, but never inside. The laws of physics will not be suspended for you just because your an audiophile with a tube "dampner" omfg. Lol
For any damper to work, you need a visco-elastic polymer, and a massive weight. The heavier the weight, the lower the harmonic. You stop the glass from moving, nothing inside moves. At lower harmonics, all the internal electrodes move together as one, solving the problem. If the resonant frequency of the tube in the socket is lower than the resonant frequency of any of the internal electrodes, the tube won't ring. Think of it like the springs and shock absorbers in your car. the springs help isolate irregularities of the road from the car, while the shock absorbers prevent oscillation. These work on the same principle. To me, they only make sense on the gain stages of the amplifier(The first tube that sees the signal from your guitar), where the gain is very high. I wouldn't bother with the tone block, the phase splitter, or the power tubes. There just isn't enough gain to make a difference. I especially wouldn't use them on the output tubes or the rectifier, just because of the heat!
I feel you are on the right track. I would say in almost all normal operating situations the tubes are designed well enough to function just fine. It would only be if the amp was in an unusual environment, such as near heavy equipment like a punch press which is not very likely. Also, the amplifier enclosure will dampen a lot of vibrations. Before even opening the cabinet, there are external choices such as an energy absorbing amp base. I read about audiophiles who add weights inside and outside of their gear. I don't care what people choose to do but when they insist I do it also we have a problem.
To prove your point Mark . The other week I went to see a band. Their guitar player had one of the best guitar sounds I have ever heard. Talking to him in the break, he said his 1970's Vox AC 30 amp had not had a valve change for about three years, (they do two gigs a week) , he didn't know what his connecting cable was as someone gave it to him . He buys the cheapest strings he can when he changes them every 3 months , and the only effect he used was a 1960's Watkins Copycat tape echo. (He knew it was 60's as his father gave it to him when he went to a Strymon tape echo). Hi guitar was a Fender Squire Stratocaster with no modifications at all. He spent his time getting to a high standard instead of trawling the internet for a load of snake oil fixes.
tube amps always sound their best right before the tubes die. If he was on three years at two gigs a week, then yeah... that amp was at its optimum. He'll probably have a breakdown in a few weeks. (speaking from experience)
You got it man, and the Watkins Copycat could just as easily be a Deluxe Memory Boy with a craigslist reel to reel in the send/return. As long as you don't have anything choking your signal, the only thing left is the player. You'll know when the gear is holding you back because you'll feel the limitations. If you can't it means that either nothing is wrong, or you aren't ready yet. The one exception I'd say, is when a more proficient musician tells you to try something. If a respected pro says, try this - take the hint.
Its all in the hands and heart. Some people have, most dont, all the money cant but you a great guitar tone. Like he said spend youy money at the source of the audio, in this case, its the player. Try and do the most you can to improve your abilty as a player to improve your sound.
So I like to hear and I agree with all the topics. And one aspect (in my personal perspective) seems to me to be much more important than all that have been mentioned: Perhaps one of the components of great impact in the quality of the transmission of the audio through vacuum tubes is the output transformer, something that is often overlooked by many of those dedicated to tube amplification. A good output transformer continues to make a big difference, at least to my ears. Keep it on, Blueglow!
I agree. The output transformer IS the voice of the amplifier. It makes a much bigger difference, than different tubes, coupling capacitors, or anything else, (other than the tone block, which is specifically tuned to voice the amplifier) That's especially true with instrument(guitar)amplifiers, which usually don't employ any kind of negative feedback.
Although I agree as to the importance of the OT, you are quite in error about negative feedback an guitar amplifiers, with the exception of Vox AC 30. From the Tweed 5C1 Champ onwards there’s a feedback in the circuit. The Tweed amps with a Presence control have negative feedback loops including the F8A Bassman which became the blueprint for the Marshall first amp and subsequent ones to follow, and their competitors have feedback. The Blackface Fenders that Mesa Engineering modified (and the Soldano Super Lead Overdrive that Mesa cloned as the Dual and Triple Rectifiers) have feedback loops. The amps that Alex Dumble modded have feedback. Possibly the DC 30 and the Fisher Trainwreck amps based on the AC 30 don’t have negative feedback, I haven’t been in either. It is simple find a schematic, look at the speaker side of the OT, if there’s a wire going from there into the preamp or power amp circuit on the other side of the OT usually with a resistor inline, then there’s negative feedback. Just a friendly FYI…
Re: tube dampers... Everything you say about them not improving audio quality is true. However, here's an experience I had. I have a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe IV combo amp. At a point, I kept hearing a high, glassy buzz from the back of the amp. The sound coming from the speaker was excellent, but there as a mechanical vibration emanating from the tube. I opened up the amp, and with a gloved hand, gripped the tubes as they were vibrating, causing a cessation of the noise. Popped on some dampers, and, boom... Back in business. That said, like you mention, guitar combos are VERY rough on tubes, and, if possible, is recommend to any guitarist that they choose a head/cab setup instead.
Mark, I have been playing live rock music as a weekend warrior for the last 50 years. I fix my own gear, have built six amps and fix stuff for my friends. Nothing sounds better than a re-tubed properly biased guitar amp. However!!!!! After one set your ears can't tell the diiference between preamp tubes. Once the drummer starts slapping the snare drum, kiss your ear sensitivity good by. LOL
@@namebrandmason You are correct. Every summer festival that I have played over the years, the sound guy dials the band in one time and that's it. I was watching a band last summer and the sound guy was napping!!
At last an expert, I was one of those people who was always reading conflicting views on NOS tubes, in glad I now feel I don't have to upgrade and spend a fortune, thank for this video keep up the good.work!.
Great videos. Keep up the great work and service to your fellow man. Thank you.. I think you are correct about no benefits of cryo treating tubes.. However, as the former owner of an aerospace company, cryo treatment does produce a change to the properties of metals that is maintained even after retuning to room temp.. Much the same way as heat treating produces changes even after the material returns to room temp.. Sometimes these treatments are used for stress relieving materials, often in aircraft parts..This process is used often at GE Aviation. Will it make a tube sound better? Doubt it... Could it damage you tubes, from glass and metal having different contraction levels at extreme cold, temps like Minus 300F? I don't know, but why subject a multi material assembly to those temps? Not me.. I let my tubes stay within the temps they were designed to operate within.
Simply put - you can put a tube or transistor into a freezer and nothing will change. You can put those in liquid nitrogen and some of materials will be affected. Will it change the sound? Yes it will. There will be no sound as those components will be damaged because at temperatures that low different materials will shrink at significantly different rates and for the tubes, they will probably crack, transistors will have contact issues or case will be separated.
Excellent. As an old radio tech who plays guitar through tubes it warms my heart to hear you call BS on these blatant sheep milking devices. I have spent hours debating audiophiles. Very frustrating. Great video. Cheers.
I find it funny that folks will spend thousands on getting a tube amp, to get that tube sound, then spend more to get rid of the tube sound. People do strange things .. Cheers, - Eddy
Its worse with guitar amps. Some buy a $5K boutique tube amp for the elusive tube sound and put a chain of 20 effects pedals before the amp to make it sound different.
You really want to make a tube amp not sound like a tube. Just make it into a cathode follower. I see all those cheap Chinese headphone and phono preamp tube amplifiers and all they do is just run the tube in cathode follower mode. What's the point? You may as well bypass the damn thing.
@@joyange1 - Interesting. I would think the voltage at the cathode would mirror the plate voltage voltage. If there's any "enhancements" added by the tube it would apply to the cathode follower also. My favorite cathode follower amps are made by Fender and Marshall.
I built amps for Bob Carver, and he used Russian KT88s and KT120s, and they worked just fine. As far as the sound of tubes, it's mostly the circuit that makes the difference in sound, and the output transformers are critical to the sound of an amplifier. And dampers --- the only damper that actually works in my mind in a good EF86 audio pentode with a heavy disk at the top of the plate, such as in an Amperex.
I am an electronics engineer of some standing with Bsc Hons and in the early days all the qualifications I could take and you are correct. Freeze a metal, its resistance goes lower, let it warm up and it returns to where it was, so no change apart from empty pockets! Speaker leads is another myth. OFC and the like means nothing to the sound produced, that is down to your speakers and pickup. Snake oil is everywhere.
I agree with pretty much everything you’ve listed. As for damper rings. My experience is, their help is minimal. Personally, I think the metal covers. Like found on fender amps, actually help the most. Largely because it’s somewhat a barrier to the sounds coming off the back of the speaker.
I remember that in the old days the metal covers were made from mu metal, so blocking magnetic field of the power transformer, so minimizing hum. Only used on the preamp tubes
Agree with you 100%. On the tube wear in, you are correct that people are looking more for tube wear out. The problem is that tubes wear slowly so the sound changes and they don’t notice it. Then, when the tube is down to 20%, that is the sound they are used to when the amp fails. Putting in a new set of tubes sounds different, so they think it is bad. Another myth is that a tube with a mesh plate sounds more open, as if the physical holes in the plate make sounds, and open sound comes from physical holes.
From Leo Thanks for your video. There is lots of snake oil in any hobby. I am always up to learn. I have been repairing guitar amps since 1969, of course mostly tubes. The vast majority of tube amps wrap the preamp and phase tubes in metal shielding. the heat build up must not hurt. Some have slotted metal cages around the power tubes where heat is definitely pretty high. A pair of KT88 or a quad of EL34/6L6 output tubes make serious heat. Higher power guitar amps that hang the tubes upside down in the same cabinet with multiple speakers are poison to tubes for microphonics. The same basic design where the tubes are upright in a separate cabinet is way better on tube reliability. I'll bet I have 30 12ax7, 12at7, 12bh7 or 12au7 tube that test great on the tester , but rattle like a tin can full of broken glass in the amplifier. They are fine for many stationary amplifiers, but are junk in a guitar amp. The upside down tubes are even worse where they mount the tube sockets directly to a circuit board, so now the vibration hurts the tubes and the heat burns the circuit board, but that is another story. It is like the designers willfully take the reliability out. I have ham radios from the mid 1950's that still have some of the original tubes, including the high voltage rectifiers.
A+. I am not an audiophile, but have been repairing, designing, building guitar amps since the 70's. What you say translates over to that world 100% according to my opinion and what I have personally experienced. Entertaining!
Current production tubes like EH, Tung-Sol are favorites for me in my guitar amplifiers. They sound good, and they have good durability. Tube Burn-In is more about removing/revealing problematic tubes that will have early mortality.
I built my first amp using carefully selected NOS parts and expected to see Elvis appear in my living room when finished, but sadly he did not arrive. However, in all fairness it was probably my fault because I failed to use vintage solder and do a proper cryo-freeze of the power switch.
@@davidrussell8918 420? Oh yeah. Elvis, Buddy Holly and probably Hendrix right in the middle. Bet you didn't need any caffeine for the rest of the day.
I've been into high end audio and TUBE gear for 50 years. (I'm now 70 years of age), built my share of tube amps and have a CLOSET full of tubes. This is the BEST video on debunking all the bullshit that comes from all these tube stores. They are SO full of crap that it never ceases to amaze me. Thanks for a great video to BUST these BS artists. They've been ripping people off for decades with their BS.
Without repeatable instrumentation for sampling and testing performance. I'm skeptical about burn in performance differences unless you can show that using test signals or specific tracks that there is a actual difference. I'd assume that 20 hour burn ins that change the sound are either you getting used to the new sound or not hearing the old sound for 20 hours of time gives you time to adjust and forget what the old sound was like. The cryo stuff I'd have to see someone with lab equipment and sampling do a before and after on a few dozen -> 100 samples, to help weed out cheating and good batch performance.
I think there is more to gain by just hand picking the best ones out of a batch of many of them. I worry, that the thermal stress of that huge temperature swing could compromise the seal between the pins and the glass. Power tubes will change slightly, mainly bias voltage. After 25-50 hours, they stabilize, and will hold consistent for the next 500-1,000 hours. The differences are very slight. If the output stage is biased using cathode follower resistors, the change may be measurable, but not noticeable. If your amp has an adjustment for bias current, you might need to make slight adjustments at first, then, not much after that. As far as sound, I doubt you'll notice anything at all.
Mark I am not sure if I 100% agree with you on these points. At first I have to admit that I am no technician in any shape or form, I know as much about tubes as a car salesman about cars, so I might be in the land of Dunning&Kruger here but I worked for a hi-fi manufacturer back in the 90s and we were the distributors of a Chinese tube manufacturer in Germany. However we had a nice tube pre-amp with ecc82 ecc83 and my demo amp was equipped with proper Telefunken tubes, not the real old ones with a swastika printed on but reasonably old like 50s 60s that kind of thing. My amp at home was equipped with the Chinese counter fits and it worked ok too. But what I have noticed is that at home I had to change my tubes relatively often coz after like half a year or so they always started to make trouble and started to degrade noticeably. One of our technicians/developers was a real hi-fi nerd with Onken speakers and multi cell horns and that kind of thing and he always refused to build a 300b coz he said he is not willing to spend 1200 for a proper GE tube. For his own amps he only used these old Wehrmacht tubes. So I guess there must be something to it. Why do people say that Shindo stuff sounds so awesome? (And they are right it really does) It is not only because it looks cool and is exotic and expensive, I think that one secret is exactly using the right old components. It does not mean that all new stuff is crap, I am not claiming something like this at all, but for sure it sounds different.
I used to work in high end pro audio design, we had every piece of ultra high end test equipment available even some custom made. This topic would bring endless joy in the engineering lab, suckers willing to pay $25,000 for 3 feet of speaker wire when $0.25 of lamp cord was utterly indistinguishable on every level of physics and listen testing... I will say their is at least some value as artwork when it’s a pleasure to look at, so expense is justified there, in my view. We actually had customers in our lab choose the TLO74CN (23 cents) opamp over a $100 ultra fast ultra low noise scientific grade “audiophile” opamp in blind listen testing.
The only difference in Op amps, would be signal to noise ratio, and slew rates. A low input shot noise equivalence reduces "hiss". For line level or above, NE5532 or TLO74 are more than adequate. For a magnetic phono cartridge or tape head input stage, the ultra low noise op amps are a much better choice. Once it has brought those microphone level signals up to line level, the cheap, readily available op amps are fine.(Please, don't try to use an LM324!) Sometimes, a Mic-Line pre-amp chip, like an SSM2017, or a THAT1512 or 1510 will give the best signal to noise ratio on the front end, if the pick up impedance is low enough.
I worked in a high end audio lab for a few years myself. The company was embarrassed badly after they asked me to come up with some other quadraphonic systems to have blind tests against there own "superior" system. We had all the name brands representing as well as a chezzy gadget I whipped together in about an hour for less than $10 in passives only from RadioShack. The chezzy gadget was chosen best by 7 out of 10 listeners. Only one in ten chose the "superior" model.
robert w. Many years ago I worked in the Telecommunications industry. We had people with PhDs researching propagation of AC speech current down transmission lines. The best result was four wire. Four 0.6mm tinned copper insulated wires wrapped in PVC and twisted in a certain manner to prevent induction etc etc. They would piss their pants at these silly BS priced cables
I think it's Bob Heil who on Ham Nation quotes a Dolby blind test where fancy copper speaker wire was indistinguishable from galvanised iron fence wire.
Hi Mark, once in awhile I catch you on some random electrical thing, but I have to agree with you 110% about spending the money on the transducers in the audio system. You could have McIntosh Tube Amps with Bose speakers and get crap sound, or you can have JBL speakers with a good Ortofon cartridge and a Realistic amp and it will sound better than the tube amp. Best advice ever, spend the money on speakers and cartridge. PS, funny you hear you curse, I get the passion!
Refreshingly frank and to the point, with added humour. I like listening to music on my tube amps, and my s/s amps. Its all good, even without cryo treated 8mm2 jumbo cables and green glass tubes. Burn in??, that's 20 or 40 hours of lost listening, or whatever, from that new set of tubes. Love your POV on the snake oil.
"my fake used sold as NOS telefunkens ecc803s from the 50s super gold edition crytreated c-ck ringed tubes sound great and i only had to sell my non essential organs to get them." probably some audiophiles out there.
I'm with you 100% on this rant. The source and the speakers are the most important things to spend money on. Amplifiers are much and much the same really, especially solid state. Audiophile suckers will pay anything for gear that they think is better. They read these magazines and believe whatever they are told. Snake oil bollox. Hey, I replaced all the wiring in my house with silver cable. I then had silver wire installed from my house to the local sub station! I then put silver wire in my tube amps and placed rubber o rings on all the tubes. Then I replaced the copper wire speaker cable with silver. Finally, I even replaced the thin wires on my turntable arm with silver ones. LOL Absolute bullshit.
I like the old blue glass Arcturus tubes. The 27 is my favorite. I also like the 833-A for the final SET stage even if it is tricky to get the 10 Volt 10 Amp heater filtered 4.5 Farads in the final filter and using it with Magnepan speakers.
I love bursting the audiofool's bubble by pointing out to them that the electrons exiting through their multi hundred dollar power cord have to then pass through a tiny little wire inside the glass fuse sitting right on the other side of the cord's receptacle. It's fun to then watch them try to come up with a counter argument justifying their incredibly foolish purchase.
ned ... let’s not forget spending on super OFC cables for speakers that do not have crystals etc and costs hundreds each but the speaker cross over has got thinner gauge wires than the speaker cables 😬
ABaumstumpf ... I read a posting in a forum that states a particular brand n model of fuse will change the tone of a particular amp that I own. I am itching to get the fuse to see if it’s true. Will up date when I do it ok. Hehehe ...
About tube dampers: I saw once tubes with silicon rings, which stuck in some perforated metal tubes. The sockets where not on a pcb board but connected with shileded cabels. The device was some kind of radio equipment from a soviet military craft. Those perforated metal tubes where hung up with some kind of spring system. The owner told me, it was for shock absorbtion as I asked him, because the construction looked funny. Maybe that's how they came to the idea.
Yeah, that's a legit use of dampers. The giant Diesel engines of military craft producing 100's to 1,000's or horsepower, along with the vehicle's intense motion are going to produce vibrations and G-loads that are magnitudes greater than anything found in a relatively puny, what, 1/4 or way less horsepower amp(very roughly figuring watts to horsepower for the amp).
A mechanical problem I have seen with some modern 12ax7 and other preamp tubes: sometimes the pins are smaller diameter then the pins found on vintage seven and nine pin miniature tubes! Check them with a micrometer against vintage tubes and you might be surprised. Sometimes they don't want to stay in place in the sockets of vintage equipment (such as hanging upside down in a guitar amp!) or the tube won't make a good reliable electrical connection until you thoroughly clean and retension the tube sockets. Retensioning tube sockets is usually a good idea, but you might have to almost mangle them in order to get the contacts to close significantly to grab ahold of the pins on some modern tubes. I have also seen modern Chinese tube sockets that were way way too snug to easily accept vintage tubes.
The engineers at AUDIO RESEARCH state plainly that newly made tubes experience shifts in their operating parameters for some period of time after being manufactured. They put all their tubes through a 48 hour burn-in cycle so that their characteristics stabilize. I would tend to trust what the engineers at Audio Research say about that. They SHOULD be subject matter experts, and they are.
They're exactly right. I find that the bias voltage stabilizes after 25-50 hours. 48 hours is right in that window. After that, the tubes seem to hold their characteristics for another 500-1,000 hours.(power tubes)
literally the ONLY thing I could see in a "tube ring" would be potentially to nullify physical feedback. Say your doing bass-heavy content and the sound pressure from your speakers are physically rattling the tube and could cause a feedback oscillation, it would dampen that. However, I can contradict this thought by saying the dampener would vibrate with the tube! so, yea snake oil. Anyways, the efficiency and design of the speakers make or break the entire setup. Your right there. Just like a transmitter, your Antenna is everything! you could pump 10KW into a small wire and barely get down the block. Or 5 watts into a highly tuned high gain antenna at the top of the mountain and get around the world. (frequencies matter here too, but for the sake of argument I left that out).
In a guitar amp you need to damp oscillations of the preamp tubes sometimes, glass can resonate like the proverbial wine glass. However a tube screening can is probably as effective and useful in its own right.
what's the best way to protect the life of the components of your tube amp? Turn it on and off fully every time you take a break for 30 min or an hour... or leave it on, but put it in standby?
Wish I'd found this year's ago, absolutely spot on and entertaining as well. The most sense I've heard on these various subjects ever. Much enjoyed, cheers :-)
About 15 years ago I went to the Vacuum Tube Valley trade show. I amazed myself. Out of a building full of vacuum tube amplifiers I picked out by hearing alone the one solid state amplifier at the show. It reminded me why I bought my first solid state amplifier in 1968 and never looked back. There's something about the sound of tube amplifiers I don't like. I have a very fine turntable and cartridge but I prefer the sound of CDs. To each his own.
In the 1980's I worked with high end surveillance cameras. The imagers were vidicon and high end Ultricon tubes. A shipment came in of 200 RCA Ultricons. Low light 1 inch format tubes worth $400 apiece. It would take years for the shop to go through all those tubes. Upon advice from RCA Lancaster we built a rack to socket 20 tubes with a filament supply. We were told that the tubes required a burn-in of 2 hours to circulate any gas present so the getter could capture it. It seems that helium can slowly creep through the glass and kill the cathode.
I totally agree with you, I worked in Hi-Fi retail for years and although the products 'in the middle' was Transistor based and it always amazed me the amount of BS there is even in the Enthusiast publications. The critical factor is the delivery and that is upfront and speakers. The amplifiers I would suggest are of say 70% good to perfection and most speakers vary widely from 20% through at a push to 50%. Over the years I have built my own speakers and always modify the drivers. Even after running in period there is way too much resistance in the suspension and I cut away most of the spider and remove the dust cover. The enclosures I have made are 1/4 wavelength twin parallel pipes in a transmission folded horn and resonance damping and speaker chassis fixings are by magnet support while the chassis surround is held against the cabinet by foam. I glue a ceramic piezo onto the apex of the cone on light supports and rewire the pigtail wires and balance with Bi-Polar caps and resistors and a few millihenries air core inducers. This method enables the speaker to more accurately follow the signal path and the harmonics and imagery is second to none and single point source providing the amplifier is well balanced and also has good harmonic figures and good imagery and leaning toward a softer than harsh output. Now am retired am thinking about Tube amplifiers and so far my first bit of kit is a Capacitor discharge wand using a 10 Watt ceramic 470 Ohm resistor. Great videos and Seasonal Greetings from London UK
You are absolutely right. Speakers should be the best you can afford, as they are really the only thing that provides the sound information. My system is a Technics SU-V505 connected up to Kef 104/2 and the sound detail that comes from this setup is the best I have ever heard. And I use standard RCA cables and speaker cable.
I’ve been through the cork sniffing nos trip, guilty of spending WAY too much money on tubes until the day I experienced a moment of clarity. I just want gear that doesn’t fail on stage. Nobody in the audience can tell ( or care) what tubes I use, as long as the music doesn’t stop.
Heck yeah! These cryo treated tubes I'm sellin' are genuine! I stuck 'em in my freezer last week, and they're still in there, just next to my vodka, right now! You'll be cry-oing tears of joy when you here 'em!
They don't have dead air space, acting like an insulator to hold the heat in. Often times, you will see aluminum heat shields, that fit snugly onto the glass. That direct contact helps conduct heat away from the glass, so the tube really doesn't get that much hotter, than if the tube was just exposed. Faraday shields are usually only used on gain stage tubes, which don't usually produce much heat in the first place. you'll almost never see them on phase splitters, power tubes, or rectifier tubes, which are the ones that get the hottest.
With the talk of vibration to tubes-I can remember in some mic preamps-TT preamps the preamp chassis was mounted on rubber-and spring suspension mounts from the main chassis-this worked well-and NO snake oil-specifically Ampex Re/PB tubed amplifiers in their 350 series tape machines.
Put all this right along with the $125 duplex outlets with gold contacts, little telephone poles for the speaker wires, pointy pyramids to support the speaker cabinets and on and on . . .
@@robames1293 Few years ago I returned even to old DIN plugs and sockets and I am still happy with them - they provide better spring type contact than permanently oxidized bronze or dusty/dirty gold cinch which require more force, double connecting and care for channels mixing. . .
@@robames1293 : There is SOME justification for some form of Monster cables. If you need to send a lot of power to a speaker over a fair difference, low resistance key. That said, the only difference between generic 10 gauge stranded wire and Monster 10 gauge stranded wire is the extra money you spend. Now, once you include connectors, it becomes more complicated. Some premium connectors ARE better than others. You are also paying for the convenience of somebody else installing them.
Recently I discovered there is a speaker cable that has arrows on it. It's sold by a couple of 'high end' audio companies. They say the cable is 'directional' and for correct sound reproduction you must use their cable with their equipment, and you must connect it with the arrows pointing towards the speakers. Yes, it's just ordinary copper inside the plastic, and the price per foot is just ridiculous.
Sorry. Tube ringing and microphonics and feedback can be minimised with the help of dampers. I am having a 4P1L DHT preamp, Eurotubes dampers has completely eradicated those problems. It sounds fantastic.
Tube dampeners do help for "tube rattle" in a combo guitar amp. Not for microphonic tubes tho. I know first hand. I bought a whole pack of silicone ones for 9 bucks off Amazon and was super happy with the result.
Great great info! I'm not so sure on tube dampers in a guitar combo amp. If I hold a tube that audibly rattles when I shake it by the plug end, but then hold it by the glass and it doesnt ring anymore, or is more quiet I'd say they are doing something. Now I dont think its neccesarily through the audio signal. There's also a difference between tube rattle and microphonic tubes. I've had tubes that rattle that sound fine through the audio signal, but rattle loud enough to be picked up by the mic on the speaker at the gig. That's where attempts to quiet that rattle are warranted, especially when tubes can begin to rattle in a guitar combo amp in relatively short time.
way to get to the heart of things!! tube vibration & microphonic tubes are two entirely different phenomenona that may often make each other worse, but result from different root causes. i can see benefits of *certain* tube dampeners that do not significantly limit or will even improve heat dissipation.
This is the BEST channel on RUclips. Been into Tube Rolling for a LONG time at 70 years of age and so far, I agree with EVERYTHING you say. I just don't bother telling people these FACTS It's worse than politics or religion.
I totally agree with you. Only thing probably worth investing in to improve tube amp aside from better tubes which is obvious is ensuring they get proper cooling to ensure they ideal operating state. It won't make them sound better but certainly will extend their life expectations. I personally like hybrid tube pre amp designs (when done properly). Certainly the best way to improve the system is investigate in analogue listening device. Best regards.
I actually agree with just about everything you said. I've spent money on RUBY tubes, and they weren't nearly as good as a pair of 6L6's I bought from china for 1/4 the price. The RUBY tubes glowed around the screen grids, like Neon bulb electrodes, there was absolutely NO glow discharge, or fluorescence from the cheap Chinese tubes. In fact, they were the best 6L6 tubes I've ever tested. If the tubes are biased using cathode follower resistors, I agree, there is little to no change over time. I have found, that power tubes, that use a negative bias supply, with very low resistance between the cathodes and ground will change characteristics in the first 25-50 hours or so, meaning, you need to re-check the bias on new power tubes. After that, they seem to hold their characteristics pretty close, for the next 500-1,000 hours. Again, if the amplifier biases it's power tubes with cathode follower resistors, there will be little to no change over the entire life cycle of the tubes. For microphonic dampers to work, there has to be a visco-elastic polymer, with a large mass on the outside of the rings, to do anything at all. I would NEVER recommend these on power tubes, because of heat. They only make sense on the input gain stages of the amplifier, where signal to noise ratio of the tubes is most critical. At line level or above, there just isn't enough gain to make a noticeable difference. They make more sense for your pre-amplifier, on the tubes that amplify the signal from a tape head, or phono cartridge, but not for the tone block or the output to the power amplifier. Don't waste your money putting these things on your power amplifier. Not enough gain to matter. There are probably 2, maybe 3 tubes in your entire system, that MIGHT benefit from tube dampers.
Thanks for the your views, always interesting. I must say being a guitarist I do use the valve/tube rings in my guitar Amps which I find helps reduces the vibration going through the tubes/valves which I believe/think/hope! Make some last a little bit longer!?!?, maybe. For me it's a cheap and easy way of hopefully prolonging the life of something which is used in fairly hostile environments (loud volumes, being moved all the time, etc)
Mesa Boogie uses and sells some 12AX7s with "dampers", a small rubber band 1/2" wide. Dampers do help a cheap tube be less microphonic. The Mesa Boogie amp I used had tubes located 3 - 6 inches from the speaker in a very high-gain circuit. It is odd that people obsess over vacuum tube "magic". Audiophiles and guitar players seem to be the easiest to dupe when it comes to tube audio "magic" and snake oil. From what I have experienced, circuit design, component quality, and component layout have more effect on the "sound" of an amplifier than the tubes themselves. BUT, someone gave me a pair of old RCA "black-plate" 6L6s which made my Mesa Boogie Mk IV sound so sweet. They only lasted about 8 months. My tube experience is mostly from the perspective of audio/sound "creation" rather than reproduction, but there are still common issues when it comes to tubes. If you want to really go to the next level of audio "sweetness", acoustical treatment is one of the best investments you can make in home audio. Quality room treatment rarely malfunctions or becomes obsolete. ruclips.net/video/tKWAI21G0bc/видео.html ok, enough of my drunken rambling.
remember all mesa tubes are chinese junk(shuagang china 10$ each). after upgrading 2 lonestars with nos tubes i can tell you one thing. swap those shitty tubes! i recommend either nos mullards(marshall vox tone) or ge jan 12ax7wa or rca 7025 in v1 at least
My first amp build was a Fender 5c3 Deluxe guitar amp that I modified to accept glass 6SL7'S instead of the stock metal 6SC7'S. I cheaped out by installing used 6SL7'S. They were microphonic even when the amp was idling . Installing AutoZone O-rings, did (mostly) cure the microphony issues BUT swapping out those tired old preamp tubes for brand new Sovtec reissues performed 1000% better with no dappers required. So yes, sometimes you can polish a turd but it's almost always better to flush the toilet.
I'd like to learn more about the "burn in" philosophy because to my ears I hear a difference in power tubes after ~10-20 hours of "burn in." Most notably, I hear it on my Mullard 20W that I built with KT77 tubes. The highs mellow out and the bass/mids opens up in a more 3D way to my ears. I agree there's no reason to pay for "burn in time" though, since you'll get there after just a dozen or two records, but I'd be surprised if a brand new tube sounded the exact same as a 20 hour tube. (I'm an EE, but I do make my living using my ears).
There is a slight change in bias voltage and transconductance in the first 25-50 hours of run time, then, the tube settles in, and is quite stable for the bulk of its service life. If you have an amplifier with bias settings, you will be making slight adjustments for the first little while after replacing the output tubes. After that, it should need little attention for the next 500-1,000 hours. If the amplifier uses cathode followers to bias the tubes, there will be very little if any difference. You MIGHT notice something if the cathode followers are bypassed with capacitors to increase gain. If so, the change in transconductance, (or the voltage gain)of the tube could be noticeable in a A/B test. The thing is, it's so gradual, your ears will adjust faster than the tubes will change characteristic, and you probably won't notice a thing.
Right on! There are good and bad tubes, new and old. In preamps, especially it helps to select the best ones. Low microphonic designs had extra supports. Yes regarding speakers and cartridges. They are electromechanical transducers, with all kinds of issues. From an old tube engineer and audio fan; son of a transducer engineer.
I have been playing electric guitar for 60 years, so I got to play through NOS tubes when that's all there was. There are some pretty darn good sounding Russian made tubes out there (which we cannot get any longer as of this writing), and I will admit to coming out of an era when you just strapped on your guitar and plugged up and flipped the switch and just played. We took it for granted that it was all going to sound good. Today, we analyze every thing that vibrates or heats up! Whoever is designing today's tubes is doing a pretty good job of making them sound as warm as the old ones, in my humble opinion. I will agree with the writer below me that the combination of heat and vibration help to lessen tube life, and the overall build quality of the NOS tubes might have added to their life span. Overall, we were fortunate just to still have tubes to buy in this micro-circuit day and age. Who knows when that time will come back again, considering the state of this world ...
To debunk something,you are actually supposed to “prove” you are right! You’re just giving your opinion which I’m debunking by disagreeing with, so now what? People, trust your own ears! He wares glasses right? You think he can see as good as someone who doesn’t? No, but unfortunately there is no glasses for people with broken ears! Cheers! 😋
Finally someone with the guts to debunk this Voodoo nonsense. I build and repair tube guitar amps under the name Hurricane Tube Amplifier. I had a customer come in with a vintage Fender to replace the stock power cord "16 gauge" with a 12 gauge power cord, someone convinced him you can get better tone with the heavier cable. I can almost believe this nonsense if you where drawing near 20 amps, the Fender amplifier may draw 2 amps. Guitarist are into this Voodoo also!
Totally agree on new tubes. Lots of very good ones out there and old ones...you just never know without rolling them which ones will be good and which ones might be duds. Tube "burn in" is really just part of the QC testing phase. Tubes with problems from the factory can fail early and a "burn in" can identify tubes that should be culled from being used or sold. No opinion on cryotubes. I doubt it matters at all. And no way to validate it without doing it yourself. I disagree on tube dampers. I have had situations where a tube damper has cured a microphonic situation in a tube and allowed it to work in a system where it was noisy before. I think I have videos showing it. The dampers change the mass of the tube and the resonant frequency of the tube overall. I think your logical fallacy is forgetting that a standing wave can be set up in an object like a tube and the whole thing can resonate at certain notes. You will notice this with guitar very easily. I mean, you can hit a note on guitar and hear a microphonic tube, and then you can put ONE FINGER on the culprit tube (the OUTSIDE of the tube, mind you!) and the noise stops. A damper is just putting a finger on the tube, so to speak. I'll leave it at that for now. Fun topics.
I'm with you Brad the tube rings helped on my Dynaco tube amp as its close to speakers and would get "muddy' when cranked. Rings fixed it and was very noticeable. Z.K.
Agreed. Another good way to prevent microphonics is to isolate the tube socket with rubber grommets on the mounting screws. I would say dampers are almost mandatory if you're using ef86 preamp tubes in a guitar amp.
The best one I've heard is Monster Cable saying they had the best Speaker Cable because they used a special multi-sized stranded cable made from 3 different gauges of OFC (Oxygen Free Copper twisted together into one centre core. The Bass Frequencies would travel down the large gauge strands, the Midrange Frequencies would travel down the medium gauge strands and the Treble Frequencies would travel down the fine gauge strands of wire. Keep in mind these 3 different gauges of bare wire (OFC Copper) were twisted together into 1 multi-stranded centre core. I knew nothing about all this stuff back then and busted out laughing because even I knew that was Bullshit. Oh, wait a minute maybe they were using "Smart Frequencies" that has AI (Artificial Intelligence) and the AI Frequencies were smart enough to know which wire they are supposed to use. God Bless You and Your Family!! Jimmy in NC....
Not from me, I'm an EE and I totally agree! My absolute favorite is the high priced stands to hold your wires off the floor. I asked the guy who makes them to prove to me they do absolutely anything whatsoever.
"People love to buy BS in the audiophile hobby. What it comes down to is, "I want the best. I want the absolute best and I'm willing to pay whatever it takes to get that." " Wise words. You summed it up in a nutshell. I will use that quote. People with more money than brains is a common theme no matter where you go.
Some people wish to have everything the best.But completing audio system by own concept seems like assembling excellent wardrobe with excellent parts from different makers on one condition that joints and sizes match, Very strong and durable. But colors of parts were impossible to state and very different
I recently tried a number of tubes in my RIAA amp. First. You are right. The one I enjoyed most was a new Genalex Gold Lion ECC83.Second. Although most of the tubes did not change, the set of GE JAN 12AX7WA sounded horrible the first 8-10 hours or so, then it suddenly just woke up and everything was there. Sonically (as in balanced registers, defined bass and so on) it became the best tube, but it crushed the soundstage compared to the Genalex for some reason. I actually have recorded sound-bits from before and after the change if anyone is interested. The difference is not subtle. At the same time, that very same type GE JAN 12AX7WA (another unused one) put into the preamp stage on my integrated Hybrid amp, it just immediately was there. My theory is that the hybrid amp has more current potential while the RIAA stage is weaker and needed a little time to fully engage the tube. I don't know enough of the real workings in a tube, so my guess is a really uneducated one. I would really want an educated explanation (guess) on why this happened? The tubes tested was the original Tung-Sol 12AX7, RCA (Heinz and Kaufman) 5751 WA (1957), Genalex Gold Lion ECC83 (2016), GE JAN 12AX7WA (1975). Only the GE tube had any hint of burn in difference, well maybe very short on the RCA but I am not certain about that.
Mr Carlson has also said in at least one video that current production tubes are good quality. I believe this, but I would like to see this proven out by some of you guys with the tools and knowledge to do so. You couldn't prove sound quality, but you could test conformance to spec, behavior in circuits that run them right up to electrical tolerance, etc...
You are absolutely right. Spend money on better speakers, it makes a huge difference. Also, consider improving the acoustics of your listening room. A heavy rug and/or drapes or curtains will take care of unwanted reflections.
Acoustics are very important, I've found that the Audyssey sound/room correction software employed in some receivers, Denon in particular, does a pretty good job of room correction as long as the room doesn't have too much reverberation.
Interesting video! I found most interesting the part about the "Tube Dampers" because although I agree with you about the devices being total BS, there is a bit of sense in doing something about the vibration. But as I began to rapidly think of how to keep the vibrations of a nearby speaker from affecting the tubes, no matter how I configured a "fix" to keep the vibration from the tube, the net result was to over heat the tube! It might be a bit of a hassle, but the best bet would be to keep the amp and the speakers separate from each other!
This is great! Very real, down to earth thoughts! I use copper wire and plain electrolytic caps and foil caps in my builds. Nothing fancy, no oil caps, definitely no "bumble bee" caps! The sound is fine too my ear. I do favor glass tubes purely for looks, but find metal tubes pick up less interference.
Oil caps have their place - in high voltage (I am talking kilovolts, here) electronics. The benefit is that the oiled paper dielectric is self healing. A HV spike will not ruin the cap.
Regarding tube "break-in," tube makers recommend that tubes be used for some period of time (i.e. X hours) before their performance is judged. Personally, I have heard this phenomenon many times. It is not subtle. Sometimes the changes are "punctuated." Using familiar recordings is the best way to discern these changes. (I am a nerd who takes notes on what I hear. Testing must be repeated at different times for confirmation). You are absolutely correct that other parts, especially capacitors, can take a long time to perform their best, so I am careful to do any evaluations only in amps that are "broken in." BTW, interconnect cables are capacitors. In my experience, the best ones typically have the lowest capacitance per meter and require break in. Exotic dielectric materials, such as nitrogen foamed polyethelene are being used to keep capacitance down. Air is the best dielectric. Personally, I use pure soft silver wire in loose cotton webbing - vitually no break in. While I appreciate sound skepticism, I don't understand your thinking about tube dampers. Have you never heard a wine glass ring? Do you believe that airborne vibrations picked up by the glass envelopes of tubes and the equipment in which they sit are not transmitted through the tube base to the internal elements? Sure the effect is small. Depending on the tube and the resolution of the system, it can be audible. Dampers, depending on their design, material, and mass, will reduce the moment of any such vibrations. Remember, too, that the transformers of vacuum tube gear also produce vibrations through the amp. Dampers add mass to the tubes. The effect of dampers naturally is greater on the small signal tubes. One does not need to be in an 18 wheeler to hear a difference on a sufficiently revealing system. If you want to prove to yourself that adding mass reduces unwanted vibrations put some significant weights atop your speakers. You may also be aware that tube amp manufacturers, some of them, use tube dampers, particularly in guitar amps.
I've never bought into the cryo fad. I have heard a slight difference from burn in thought from different components including tubes, I've proved it to myself by playing a song for my wife and we both could hear the sibilant voice and harsh treble, after I burned it in a few hours I noticed it already sounding better turned it off to verify it wasn't just because it was warmed up then an hour later turned it on again and it still sounded better so I had the wife listen again to the same song and she was surprised that the treble was now smoother and pleasant. I've done the same thing before with switching various brands of vacuum tubes, some brands just sound better and my wife never knows the brand yet she always ends up picking the same ones. Most of the time it is just a subtle difference but sometimes it can make or break the sound. I find this a more common among tube amps then solid state.
Audio Advisor, a magazine that for some reason has started showing up in my mail is full of snake oil like $100 power cords that are "guaranteed to improve sound", and super expensive USB cables for your digital audio that eliminate distortion. I've got news for you. In the digital world, a 0 is a 0 and a 1 is a 1. A distorted 01110011 is still 01110011, and will get processed exactly the same, because numbers are numbers! Oh, and there's also "magic" solder (Western Electric) that if you're not using it, your audio will suffer greatly! The sound improvement is so dramatic that it won't show up in any subjective test, but you know it's there because you can feel it!
i didn't believe it either but now i know a better usb cable(all metal no plastic) improves sound quality and also has more volume which isn't a subjective claim.
Another great video. Agree with you 100% on all the bs out there. I am far from an audiophile as I know I can't hear worth a darn any more and that comes to everyone the older they get. The start and end points are so important as you say in having a good sounding system. I love reading other forums where they have page after page of how their 400$ electrical input cable improves their system so much and they can tell when it is plugged in vice just a "common" ac cord and everyone there is like "Oh wow I need one" and "You are so right, I could tell immediately!" BS!!
I completely agree with most of what you're saying Mark. There are a couple of issues that I'd like to comment on. I use a lot of EF86 tubes in my guitar amp builds and microphonics is an issue with them. I use and recommend some sort of mechanical damping because it can make the difference between usable and unusable. The same is true with metal 6SC7 tubes in early 50's Fender amps. Having said that, I don't use fancy aftermarket devices. I use O-rings from a mechanics supply store and occasionally heat shrink. It doesn't make the tubes sound any better, it simply gets you past the defect inherent in the tube. As for burn-in of tubes, I agree that I've not seen them sound better after hours of use. What I do find is that power tubes take a few heating and cooling cycles before the bias current is truly stable. I've always attributed that to expansion and contraction of the internal components of the tube. It shows up really well if you compare tubes from a re-seller with tubes coming right off the boat prior to burn in and matching.
Worth noting that 1950s audio preamp/amp manufacturers and even a few guitar amp manufacturers (a few Magnatone models) put the preamp tubes and sockets on metal plates that were isolated from the main chassis with rubber grommets for the purposes of shock and vibration dampening. They must have had some real-world experience that this was helpful, otherwise why would the manufacturer is go through the extra time and cost of building things this way?
"I use a lot of EF86 tubes in my guitar amp builds and microphonics is an issue with them. " If microphonics are a consistent problem with EF86s, I'd change the design to use a different tube.
Electromechanical devices like cartridges and speakers do need a few hours of break-in in order to get to published spec. Electrolytic caps may need a few hours of forming to come up to best performance. Other caps and passive components do not. Tubes may need a few hours to fully activate the emissive coating on the carhode. And finally, I personally cannot tell the difference in the sound of good solid state amps and good tube amps - I do prefer solid state due to being easier and lower cost to build.
Dave Kazoroski Last time I got to such conclusion about ECO that with tubes we are much more ecological than with solid. Tubes are totally natural with glass and metal except only slight use of gas traps. Production requires mostly heat and mechanical work and main component is something as natural as vacuum :). . Production is simple comparing to ICS or transistors requiring high standards and plastic and chemistry. I am talking about audio amplifiers, not telephones or tablets anyway:).
Love your videos, I completely agree with your prognosis on audiophile snake oil. Speakers are the most important by far for sound, I've had Carver Amazing Loudspeakers, ESS AMT1A's, Acoustat 1+1's, Magneplaners and now use a homebuilt pair of towers with the ESS Air Motions Transformers reproducing the highs, extremely efficient and sound wonderful. Oh and by the way, still own all the speakers I've ever had except the Carver Amazing's.
That was great. I have so many audiophile people preaching to me that I need expensive 1960 NOS tubes. I’m really happy with just recently made tubes. I have tinnitus so I have changed some that sound bright to me. The new Mullard works good for me at 34 bucks.
You are correct IMO; input feed and output are the factors on sound quality. Learned that at an early age... I still love the sound of the my Magneplanar MG-III's. Six foot ribbon tweeters can't be beat.
Great video. Agree on Sovtek 12AX7, use them and the standard Sovtek EL84 in my guitar amp. Have tried many others... Not NOS admittedly... But always go back to the Sovteks. They sound great.
Great rant & amen brother. I’ve never spent more than @$10-12 per tube except to buy a GZ34 rectifier....sooo I’ve not tried a 12ax7xps yet. I do love the JJ ec803s. Usually, in most spots, I prefer a GOOD ol’ 12at7 over a 12ax7.....smooths out the sound......saves $.
Mark, I can see there being a physics basis for all these claims of "better sound". The audiophile industry has been specification obsessed since the transistor introduction. I'm a victim of this. Obsessions like this aren't unique to audio, same thing in golfing, jewelry, photography, automotive, etc industries. What I've learned over decades of research is that none of this matters because what sounds good to you, might sound like crap to me. Person-to-person perception of sound is highly variant. Here's the most fascinating part, take all this marketing hype and throw it out for tube guitar amps. Careful designers specifically want their amp characteristics to be theoretically horrible because that what's sounds good. When I started my tube amp work about 5 years ago, I had to ditch my analog EE PhD and look at non-linearity as a good thing. Completely counter-intuitive to everything I've learned. Thanks for the video, I love your passion.
agree with your remarks about personal choice of sound quality. Any magic tube sound is only a choice to "colour" the original sound, and is not an indication that the output is truly just a more powerful image of the input. It could be argued that if tube amps were superior in that respect there would be an insatiable demand for tubes in scientific and medical equipment I have even heard it said that tubes would be better in digital audio processing: a position that could not be supported by any scientific proof. Finally, I would say that if you enjoy spending money on audio and then challenging people to prove that you can`t hear any difference, I wish you many happy hours of listening
@@johnmeredith3368 Well, I didn't throw in age-based hearing degradation. Personally, my once 'good ears' both ring a little, left more than right. So the intermodulation that ringing produces is something that I consider now. At this point, playing music anywhere on anything is all good, well except those who listen on their phone's internal speaker. I'll pull some amp/speaker setup out of storage and give it away when I see or hear that. Happy new year!
Great video. One angle: Many of these might come from guitar players. The first one especially, since they're not listening to hifi or on paper performance, but the "performance" when heavily overdriven or fed near-square wave signals in a very odd application. Likewise, tube dampers. Tubes don't need to be in a truck to be shaken hard. Just be in a big combo amplifier with ear splitting guitar or bass speaker element rattling its case. Plus, musicians are weird and very prone to GAS (gear acquisition syndrome).
I have learned SO MUCH from you and Mr. Carlson's Lab that wasn't covered in all the electronics courses in school ! Nitty-gritty nuts 'n' bolts stuff not in the textbooks.
Thanks ever so.!
OK I play guitar, and have swapped out a lot of NOS tubes in the V1 position Of my tube amps, in order to change the tone. Absolutely makes a huge difference, but I am so glad to hear that perhaps somebody is making good tubes in the present, that will not continue to cost me an arm and a leg. So glad that there are people who are continuing to analyze tube technology. I subscribed!
Did you actually experiment with biasing the stage?
You are the absolute KING of debunking snake oil . At 70 years of age and into high end audio since I was a kid, via my father, this snake oil never stops. EVERYTHING you said is correct. My other pet peeve is cables and interconnects. Been there, done that.
…got the scars to prove it
I tried high end cables costing (censored)- because the price was obscene. What did I get? Cables that simply rolled off treble. Like a very expensive filter.
@@scottlowell493 Been there, done that. Just get yourself some Blue Jean cables. High quality, low priced and NO snake oil
The best video to date, lots of laughs. Keep up the good work
The tube damper worked in my guitar amp. The problem was most likely that the metal retainer was vibrating against the glass and causing unwanted noise. They were like a dollar for 2 I think.
i got a cheap twin tube 50w with good quality tube upgrades. and yes they ring, but i dont like the flatness with the silicone bands. it definately makes a diffetence to my ears but then im sensitive to fine details.
yup, dollar for two here also ... I don't think the guy has ever had a guitar amp prone to micro-phonics .... where if you do, you will try anything.
Hi Mark, you hit the nail on the head! All snake oil. I've been an electronics technician since I was 13 and I've seen it all. Many newly manufactured tubes are as good if not better than NOS. There's a lot of factors involved with the actual applications that tubes are used in. I repair a lot of vintage electronics...not only hi-fi, but guitar amplifiers, both vintage and new. Newly manufactured tubes, from my experience over the years don't hold up as well in guitar amps. The tubes are put under severe stress as opposed to hi-fi applications. There are many tubes made today that aren't reliable for guitar amp use. Guitar amps made nowadays are biased very hot and as we both know shortens the life of a tube; mainly output tubes. As you said, vibration is one of the issues along with them being over-driven to the point where the plates buckle, or the glass envelope melts. I've had many EL-34's that had holes in the side, or top of the glass. I do agree with you that the Sovtek 12AX7's are a good pick. Also, there are times where I get a shipment of theses tubes where out of 2 dozen, I MIGHT get 3 that are quiet. When you can play a tune on the tops of the tubes, you're in trouble. From my experience, I've had very good luck with JAN tubes in a preamp section. They were made well and are made to rigid standards. I could go on for hours, but to keep it short, newly manufactured tubes are a dice roll when it comes to instrument amplifiers. I had a very bad run of new Tung-Sol tubes where I've sent back dozens at a time either because of them being duds right out of the box, or failed shortly after installing them. Excellent video, keep on keeping it real. PS: I will not do repairs for audiophools...oops, I mean philes :) You end up getting married to them, and they are never satisfied. it's not worth the problems, no matter how wealthy they may be.
Frank Ferraro, you have highlighted another tube problem: "recycled" brand names, bought up by some corporation that uses the name on Chinese or Russian tubes where it isn't readily apparent to the non-knowledgeable end user that there were once Tung-Sol tubes and now there are "Tung-Sol" tubes that may or may not bear much or any relation to the original engineering, materials and mechanical-construction aspects that made those original tubes so rugged and good sounding in the first place. Like say buying a
modern repro "Supro" , I bet they all have printed circuit boards (and none have 6973 output tubes either) ; ditto for a " '65 reissue Deluxe Reverb, with PC boards....and now that somebody has "reissued" "Magnatone"- branded amps, I'd love to see a picture of the inside of those if anyone can take/post some , not to mention a schematic.....I expect to see PC boards and lots of channel switching and boost circuits and other stuff that doesn't really belong in there!
I'd also bet that some of these modern tubes are getting rebranded by unscrupulous sellers who remove the "made in Russia" (or China) markings and attempt to pass them off as vintage. If a modern tube looks enough like the originals, you can bet somebody will pull scams with them. The manufacturers should *etch* all markings onto the glass with acid.
@@goodun6081 It's easy to tell that the new Tung-Sol tubes aren't US made. If you've ever seen the new 6550's, the glass bottle is shaped differently and is easy to tell, The new Tungs aren't even close to the appearance or performance of the originals. Yes, many of the new reissue amps use PCB's instead of P2P wiring. The traces are paper thin, burn easily and blow apart easily if a tube shorts. The tube sockets are mounted directly to the boards which I don't condone. I've had to replace entire circuit boards due to heat, and tubes shorting and creating an electronic charcoal haven. Many of the Fender Blues Jr amps come in with these issues and I've stripped them of these cheesy boards and done a P2P rewire. Biasing the EL-84's at 40+ mA doesn't help either. They don't make amps like they used to. When you compare a vintage Magnatone to a reissue, and see them side by side, Its nauseating.
@@djfrank59 , I fix vintage audio gear for a living, both solid state and Tube equipment, and I've worked on a bunch of unusual guitar amps as well including some of the oddballs like Magnatone, Premier , Danelectro, etc, and Fenders of course ( including a transitional 56-57 Bassman). I HATE the use of PC boards in tube amps, especially tube guitar amps. Yes, I've seen the same issues you have. Fender in particular should be ashamed at the PCB-based amps they've been building for years.
@@djfrank59 I am not a working tech. I work on my stuff, friends stuff and have built at least 6 amps. I repaired a Fender Excellsior. Great concept, shitty execution. The cheapest wire and pc board I have ever seen. For an extra $100 fender could have made hand wired boards. However, I built a 5E3 clone and used the Tubedepot pcb. A true piece of art. Sturdy and great traces. I had a Peavey Classic 30 and the pcb boards were made like a cage. JUNK!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@ericr5431 Fender has laid too many eggs with their newer line including the classic reissues. In fact a lot of those newer amps are on the DNR list (Do not repair) for authorized warranty centers. Peavey isn't making amps like they used to. China has taken over their manufacturing. Tube Depot amp kits are really well designed and are rugged. My friend Robert Hull designed those kits.
I built a Heathkit integrated amp in 1962. That was my last involvement with tubes until recently when I got a new amp that uses tubes in the pre-amp. I tend to be a doubter in much of the audiophile stuff. This was an excellent explanation of these ideas.
Please don't feel bashed and smashed over this one, Been fixing tube amps and everything else for 40 years and 100% agree with you and your comments , like your video very much , makes a lot of sense. Keep up the good work lol Bill
I agree with most of what you say other than the dampers.....they do in fact reduce vibrations the same way a harmonic balancer does on an engine, or touching something that vibrates stops or dampens the vibration.....it even works in a similar fashion to double glazed windows.........anything that can reduce to transfer of vibration/sound to the tube elements will have a positive effect.......not all vibration is started inside the tube itself or its mechanical connection to another vibrating part....if you can tap the tube and hear it in the output and then hold the tube with your hand and tap it again and its reduced you can reduce microphonics with some for of damping.......the more weight an object has also has a damping effect......the only this I will say though, is you have to have the problem for any damping to work to any degree.
I had a Blackstar HT Club 40. Turned up very loud, there was a rattle coming through the speaker. It turned out the springs on the power valve clamps (which had rubber rings where they touched the valves) were touching the glass and vibrating. I cut up some silicon sheet from a kitchen geegaw my wife had bought, and used it to space the springs away from the valves. This solved the problem, so I'm inclined to agree that removing unwanted valve vibration should prevent odd noises. Whether it improves 'tone' is moot though.
Hey the dampers work great in guitar amps! It,s a high heat , hard working high vibration environment.
Under high stress vibration it may help but it cannot ever ever stop INTERNAL vibration of a tube. I'm friggin possible. Especially in hi fi applications. On a guitar amp its possible some vibration may be reduced, but never inside. The laws of physics will not be suspended for you just because your an audiophile with a tube "dampner" omfg. Lol
For any damper to work, you need a visco-elastic polymer, and a massive weight. The heavier the weight, the lower the harmonic. You stop the glass from moving, nothing inside moves. At lower harmonics, all the internal electrodes move together as one, solving the problem. If the resonant frequency of the tube in the socket is lower than the resonant frequency of any of the internal electrodes, the tube won't ring. Think of it like the springs and shock absorbers in your car. the springs help isolate irregularities of the road from the car, while the shock absorbers prevent oscillation. These work on the same principle. To me, they only make sense on the gain stages of the amplifier(The first tube that sees the signal from your guitar), where the gain is very high. I wouldn't bother with the tone block, the phase splitter, or the power tubes. There just isn't enough gain to make a difference. I especially wouldn't use them on the output tubes or the rectifier, just because of the heat!
I feel you are on the right track. I would say in almost all normal operating situations the tubes are designed well enough to function just fine. It would only be if the amp was in an unusual environment, such as near heavy equipment like a punch press which is not very likely. Also, the amplifier enclosure will dampen a lot of vibrations. Before even opening the cabinet, there are external choices such as an energy absorbing amp base. I read about audiophiles who add weights inside and outside of their gear. I don't care what people choose to do but when they insist I do it also we have a problem.
To prove your point Mark . The other week I went to see a band. Their guitar player had one of the best guitar sounds I have ever heard. Talking to him in the break, he said his 1970's Vox AC 30 amp had not had a valve change for about three years, (they do two gigs a week) , he didn't know what his connecting cable was as someone gave it to him . He buys the cheapest strings he can when he changes them every 3 months , and the only effect he used was a 1960's Watkins Copycat tape echo. (He knew it was 60's as his father gave it to him when he went to a Strymon tape echo). Hi guitar was a Fender Squire Stratocaster with no modifications at all. He spent his time getting to a high standard instead of trawling the internet for a load of snake oil fixes.
tube amps always sound their best right before the tubes die. If he was on three years at two gigs a week, then yeah... that amp was at its optimum. He'll probably have a breakdown in a few weeks. (speaking from experience)
Using a tape echo preamp to boost a tube amp is a tried and true method of getting great tone.
You got it man, and the Watkins Copycat could just as easily be a Deluxe Memory Boy with a craigslist reel to reel in the send/return. As long as you don't have anything choking your signal, the only thing left is the player. You'll know when the gear is holding you back because you'll feel the limitations. If you can't it means that either nothing is wrong, or you aren't ready yet. The one exception I'd say, is when a more proficient musician tells you to try something. If a respected pro says, try this - take the hint.
Its all in the hands and heart. Some people have, most dont, all the money cant but you a great guitar tone. Like he said spend youy money at the source of the audio, in this case, its the player. Try and do the most you can to improve your abilty as a player to improve your sound.
@@davidrussell8918 , Amen to that , you got it man !!
So I like to hear and I agree with all the topics. And one aspect (in my personal perspective) seems to me to be much more important than all that have been mentioned:
Perhaps one of the components of great impact in the quality of the transmission of the audio through vacuum tubes is the output transformer, something that is often overlooked by many of those dedicated to tube amplification.
A good output transformer continues to make a big difference, at least to my ears.
Keep it on, Blueglow!
I agree. The output transformer IS the voice of the amplifier. It makes a much bigger difference, than different tubes, coupling capacitors, or anything else, (other than the tone block, which is specifically tuned to voice the amplifier) That's especially true with instrument(guitar)amplifiers, which usually don't employ any kind of negative feedback.
Although I agree as to the importance of the OT, you are quite in error about negative feedback an guitar amplifiers, with the exception of Vox AC 30. From the Tweed 5C1 Champ onwards there’s a feedback in the circuit. The Tweed amps with a Presence control have negative feedback loops including the F8A Bassman which became the blueprint for the Marshall first amp and subsequent ones to follow, and their competitors have feedback. The Blackface Fenders that Mesa Engineering modified (and the Soldano Super Lead Overdrive that Mesa cloned as the Dual and Triple Rectifiers) have feedback loops. The amps that Alex Dumble modded have feedback. Possibly the DC 30 and the Fisher Trainwreck amps based on the AC 30 don’t have negative feedback, I haven’t been in either. It is simple find a schematic, look at the speaker side of the OT, if there’s a wire going from there into the preamp or power amp circuit on the other side of the OT usually with a resistor inline, then there’s negative feedback. Just a friendly FYI…
Re: tube dampers... Everything you say about them not improving audio quality is true. However, here's an experience I had. I have a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe IV combo amp. At a point, I kept hearing a high, glassy buzz from the back of the amp. The sound coming from the speaker was excellent, but there as a mechanical vibration emanating from the tube. I opened up the amp, and with a gloved hand, gripped the tubes as they were vibrating, causing a cessation of the noise. Popped on some dampers, and, boom... Back in business. That said, like you mention, guitar combos are VERY rough on tubes, and, if possible, is recommend to any guitarist that they choose a head/cab setup instead.
Mark, I have been playing live rock music as a weekend warrior for the last 50 years. I fix my own gear, have built six amps and fix stuff for my friends. Nothing sounds better than a re-tubed properly biased guitar amp. However!!!!! After one set your ears can't tell the diiference between preamp tubes. Once the drummer starts slapping the snare drum, kiss your ear sensitivity good by. LOL
Fellow guitarist, don't forget you're only doing it for yourself. The sound guy is going to wreck your tonal nuances.
@@namebrandmason You are correct. Every summer festival that I have played over the years, the sound guy dials the band in one time and that's it. I was watching a band last summer and the sound guy was napping!!
@@ericr5431 he was tired!
LOL! That's why my ears have been ringing loudly since 1981.
At last an expert, I was one of those people who was always reading conflicting views on NOS tubes, in glad I now feel I don't have to upgrade and spend a fortune, thank for this video keep up the good.work!.
Great videos. Keep up the great work and service to your fellow man. Thank you.. I think you are correct about no benefits of cryo treating tubes.. However, as the former owner of an aerospace company, cryo treatment does produce a change to the properties of metals that is maintained even after retuning to room temp.. Much the same way as heat treating produces changes even after the material returns to room temp.. Sometimes these treatments are used for stress relieving materials, often in aircraft parts..This process is used often at GE Aviation. Will it make a tube sound better? Doubt it... Could it damage you tubes, from glass and metal having different contraction levels at extreme cold, temps like Minus 300F? I don't know, but why subject a multi material assembly to those temps? Not me.. I let my tubes stay within the temps they were designed to operate within.
Room temperature is one thing that not matter. But the tubes get hot in their first use after the cryo process... so all benefits disappear.
Simply put - you can put a tube or transistor into a freezer and nothing will change. You can put those in liquid nitrogen and some of materials will be affected. Will it change the sound? Yes it will. There will be no sound as those components will be damaged because at temperatures that low different materials will shrink at significantly different rates and for the tubes, they will probably crack, transistors will have contact issues or case will be separated.
😀
Excellent. As an old radio tech who plays guitar through tubes it warms my heart to hear you call BS on these blatant sheep milking devices. I have spent hours debating audiophiles. Very frustrating. Great video. Cheers.
No matter how hard you try, you just can not teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I find it funny that folks will spend thousands on getting a tube amp, to get that tube sound, then spend more to get rid of the tube sound.
People do strange things ..
Cheers,
- Eddy
@Phil Weatherley - lol
Its worse with guitar amps. Some buy a $5K boutique tube amp for the elusive tube sound and put a chain of 20 effects pedals before the amp to make it sound different.
You really want to make a tube amp not sound like a tube. Just make it into a cathode follower. I see all those cheap Chinese headphone and phono preamp tube amplifiers and all they do is just run the tube in cathode follower mode. What's the point? You may as well bypass the damn thing.
@@joyange1 - Interesting. I would think the voltage at the cathode would mirror the plate voltage voltage. If there's any "enhancements" added by the tube it would apply to the cathode follower also.
My favorite cathode follower amps are made by Fender and Marshall.
@@joyange1 otl are also retarded in that matter
I built amps for Bob Carver, and he used Russian KT88s and KT120s, and they worked just fine. As far as the sound of tubes, it's mostly the circuit that makes the difference in sound, and the output transformers are critical to the sound of an amplifier. And dampers --- the only damper that actually works in my mind in a good EF86 audio pentode with a heavy disk at the top of the plate, such as in an Amperex.
I am an electronics engineer of some standing with Bsc Hons and in the early days all the qualifications I could take and you are correct. Freeze a metal, its resistance goes lower, let it warm up and it returns to where it was, so no change apart from empty pockets! Speaker leads is another myth. OFC and the like means nothing to the sound produced, that is down to your speakers and pickup. Snake oil is everywhere.
I agree with pretty much everything you’ve listed.
As for damper rings. My experience is, their help is minimal.
Personally, I think the metal covers. Like found on fender amps, actually help the most.
Largely because it’s somewhat a barrier to the sounds coming off the back of the speaker.
I remember that in the old days the metal covers were made from mu metal, so blocking magnetic field of the power transformer, so minimizing hum. Only used on the preamp tubes
Agree with you 100%.
On the tube wear in, you are correct that people are looking more for tube wear out. The problem is that tubes wear slowly so the sound changes and they don’t notice it. Then, when the tube is down to 20%, that is the sound they are used to when the amp fails. Putting in a new set of tubes sounds different, so they think it is bad.
Another myth is that a tube with a mesh plate sounds more open, as if the physical holes in the plate make sounds, and open sound comes from physical holes.
From Leo Thanks for your video. There is lots of snake oil in any hobby. I am always up to learn. I have been repairing guitar amps since 1969, of course mostly tubes. The vast majority of tube amps wrap the preamp and phase tubes in metal shielding. the heat build up must not hurt. Some have slotted metal cages around the power tubes where heat is definitely pretty high. A pair of KT88 or a quad of EL34/6L6 output tubes make serious heat.
Higher power guitar amps that hang the tubes upside down in the same cabinet with multiple speakers are poison to tubes for microphonics. The same basic design where the tubes are upright in a separate cabinet is way better on tube reliability. I'll bet I have 30 12ax7, 12at7, 12bh7 or 12au7 tube that test great on the tester , but rattle like a tin can full of broken glass in the amplifier. They are fine for many stationary amplifiers, but are junk in a guitar amp. The upside down tubes are even worse where they mount the tube sockets directly to a circuit board, so now the vibration hurts the tubes and the heat burns the circuit board, but that is another story. It is like the designers willfully take the reliability out. I have ham radios from the mid 1950's that still have some of the original tubes, including the high voltage rectifiers.
A+. I am not an audiophile, but have been repairing, designing, building guitar amps since the 70's. What you say translates over to that world 100% according to my opinion and what I have personally experienced. Entertaining!
Current production tubes like EH, Tung-Sol are favorites for me in my guitar amplifiers. They sound good, and they have good durability. Tube Burn-In is more about removing/revealing problematic tubes that will have early mortality.
Tung-Sol goes far back.
I built my first amp using carefully selected NOS parts and expected to see Elvis appear in my living room when finished, but sadly he did not arrive. However, in all fairness it was probably my fault because I failed to use vintage solder and do a proper cryo-freeze of the power switch.
No, you need to use silver solder, because all the connections on the parts are of course made of pure silver :-)
Vintage solder!!
On a vintage style amp build, I did see Elvis. When I hit the 420b+ and sent my needle nose plyers flying accoss the room!
@@davidrussell8918 420? Oh yeah. Elvis, Buddy Holly and probably Hendrix right in the middle. Bet you didn't need any caffeine for the rest of the day.
I've been into high end audio and TUBE gear for 50 years. (I'm now 70 years of age), built my share of tube amps and have a CLOSET full of tubes. This is the BEST video on debunking all the bullshit that comes from all these tube stores. They are SO full of crap that it never ceases to amaze me. Thanks for a great video to BUST these BS artists. They've been ripping people off for decades with their BS.
Without repeatable instrumentation for sampling and testing performance. I'm skeptical about burn in performance differences unless you can show that using test signals or specific tracks that there is a actual difference.
I'd assume that 20 hour burn ins that change the sound are either you getting used to the new sound or not hearing the old sound for 20 hours of time gives you time to adjust and forget what the old sound was like.
The cryo stuff I'd have to see someone with lab equipment and sampling do a before and after on a few dozen -> 100 samples, to help weed out cheating and good batch performance.
I think there is more to gain by just hand picking the best ones out of a batch of many of them. I worry, that the thermal stress of that huge temperature swing could compromise the seal between the pins and the glass. Power tubes will change slightly, mainly bias voltage. After 25-50 hours, they stabilize, and will hold consistent for the next 500-1,000 hours. The differences are very slight. If the output stage is biased using cathode follower resistors, the change may be measurable, but not noticeable. If your amp has an adjustment for bias current, you might need to make slight adjustments at first, then, not much after that. As far as sound, I doubt you'll notice anything at all.
Mark I am not sure if I 100% agree with you on these points. At first I have to admit that I am no technician in any shape or form, I know as much about tubes as a car salesman about cars, so I might be in the land of Dunning&Kruger here but I worked for a hi-fi manufacturer back in the 90s and we were the distributors of a Chinese tube manufacturer in Germany. However we had a nice tube pre-amp with ecc82 ecc83 and my demo amp was equipped with proper Telefunken tubes, not the real old ones with a swastika printed on but reasonably old like 50s 60s that kind of thing. My amp at home was equipped with the Chinese counter fits and it worked ok too. But what I have noticed is that at home I had to change my tubes relatively often coz after like half a year or so they always started to make trouble and started to degrade noticeably. One of our technicians/developers was a real hi-fi nerd with Onken speakers and multi cell horns and that kind of thing and he always refused to build a 300b coz he said he is not willing to spend 1200 for a proper GE tube. For his own amps he only used these old Wehrmacht tubes. So I guess there must be something to it. Why do people say that Shindo stuff sounds so awesome? (And they are right it really does) It is not only because it looks cool and is exotic and expensive, I think that one secret is exactly using the right old components. It does not mean that all new stuff is crap, I am not claiming something like this at all, but for sure it sounds different.
I used to work in high end pro audio design, we had every piece of ultra high end test equipment available even some custom made. This topic would bring endless joy in the engineering lab, suckers willing to pay $25,000 for 3 feet of speaker wire when $0.25 of lamp cord was utterly indistinguishable on every level of physics and listen testing... I will say their is at least some value as artwork when it’s a pleasure to look at, so expense is justified there, in my view. We actually had customers in our lab choose the TLO74CN (23 cents) opamp over a $100 ultra fast ultra low noise scientific grade “audiophile” opamp in blind listen testing.
The only difference in Op amps, would be signal to noise ratio, and slew rates. A low input shot noise equivalence reduces "hiss". For line level or above, NE5532 or TLO74 are more than adequate. For a magnetic phono cartridge or tape head input stage, the ultra low noise op amps are a much better choice. Once it has brought those microphone level signals up to line level, the cheap, readily available op amps are fine.(Please, don't try to use an LM324!) Sometimes, a Mic-Line pre-amp chip, like an SSM2017, or a THAT1512 or 1510 will give the best signal to noise ratio on the front end, if the pick up impedance is low enough.
I worked in a high end audio lab for a few years myself. The company was embarrassed badly after they asked me to come up with some other quadraphonic systems to have blind tests against there own "superior" system. We had all the name brands representing as well as a chezzy gadget I whipped together in about an hour for less than $10 in passives only from RadioShack. The chezzy gadget was chosen best by 7 out of 10 listeners. Only one in ten chose the "superior" model.
robert w. Many years ago I worked in the Telecommunications industry. We had people with PhDs researching propagation of AC speech current down transmission lines. The best result was four wire. Four 0.6mm tinned copper insulated wires wrapped in PVC and twisted in a certain manner to prevent induction etc etc. They would piss their pants at these silly BS priced cables
I think it's Bob Heil who on Ham Nation quotes a Dolby blind test where fancy copper speaker wire was indistinguishable from galvanised iron fence wire.
Hi Mark, once in awhile I catch you on some random electrical thing, but I have to agree with you 110% about spending the money on the transducers in the audio system. You could have McIntosh Tube Amps with Bose speakers and get crap sound, or you can have JBL speakers with a good Ortofon cartridge and a Realistic amp and it will sound better than the tube amp. Best advice ever, spend the money on speakers and cartridge. PS, funny you hear you curse, I get the passion!
Totally agree. Best advice for anyone interested in audio systems.
Refreshingly frank and to the point, with added humour. I like listening to music on my tube amps, and my s/s amps. Its all good, even without cryo treated 8mm2 jumbo cables and green glass tubes. Burn in??, that's 20 or 40 hours of lost listening, or whatever, from that new set of tubes. Love your POV on the snake oil.
"my fake used sold as NOS telefunkens ecc803s from the 50s super gold edition crytreated c-ck ringed tubes sound great and i only had to sell my non essential organs to get them." probably some audiophiles out there.
I'm with you 100% on this rant. The source and the speakers are the most important things to spend money on. Amplifiers are much and much the same really, especially solid state.
Audiophile suckers will pay anything for gear that they think is better. They read these magazines and believe whatever they are told. Snake oil bollox.
Hey, I replaced all the wiring in my house with silver cable. I then had silver wire installed from my house to the local sub station! I then put silver wire in my tube amps and placed rubber o rings on all the tubes. Then I replaced the copper wire speaker cable with silver. Finally, I even replaced the thin wires on my turntable arm with silver ones. LOL
Absolute bullshit.
you are 100% right the cartage & stylus is the key to a good turn table not a '' special '' power cord
If you are going to install a "special" power cord, you need to install "special" wiring in your house.
@@johnc8910 I will stick with my #8-3 NMD 40 amp 120/240 circuit
I like the old blue glass Arcturus tubes. The 27 is my favorite. I also like the 833-A for the final SET stage even if it is tricky to get the 10 Volt 10 Amp heater filtered 4.5 Farads in the final filter and using it with Magnepan speakers.
I read that as 'blue grass' lol. It would be cool if you could get valves/tubes that make anything you play through them sound like bluegrass
@@bigbasil1908 Guffaw!
That was a beautiful rant! All true. Just saw a monoblock for $125k too!
I love bursting the audiofool's bubble by pointing out to them that the electrons exiting through their multi hundred dollar power cord have to then pass through a tiny little wire inside the glass fuse sitting right on the other side of the cord's receptacle. It's fun to then watch them try to come up with a counter argument justifying their incredibly foolish purchase.
ned ... let’s not forget spending on super OFC cables for speakers that do not have crystals etc and costs hundreds each but the speaker cross over has got thinner gauge wires than the speaker cables 😬
And the speakers themselves have over 15% distortion.
I've actually seen "audiophile" grade fuses that address that issue. Whether or not they actually make a difference I could not tell you.
@@matthewhall6288 Simple - they don't.
ABaumstumpf ... I read a posting in a forum that states a particular brand n model of fuse will change the tone of a particular amp that I own.
I am itching to get the fuse to see if it’s true. Will up date when I do it ok. Hehehe ...
I made some tube dampers out of hummingbird taints and it made “ tiny little” differences in mine.
You didn't use enough taints.
@@rb032682 taint enough?
@@zulumax1 - LOL! 🤣🤣🤣👍🖖😎😷
How do you get them to sit still?
Here in Brazil we call it E.T.C ....... El Toro Crapo !!! Great vid..... lol need more like this on Sunday.......
Hahaha!
No, in Brazil we speak Portuguese.
About tube dampers: I saw once tubes with silicon rings, which stuck in some perforated metal tubes. The sockets where not on a pcb board but connected with shileded cabels. The device was some kind of radio equipment from a soviet military craft. Those perforated metal tubes where hung up with some kind of spring system. The owner told me, it was for shock absorbtion as I asked him, because the construction looked funny. Maybe that's how they came to the idea.
Yeah, that's a legit use of dampers. The giant Diesel engines of military craft producing 100's to 1,000's or horsepower, along with the vehicle's intense motion are going to produce vibrations and G-loads that are magnitudes greater than anything found in a relatively puny, what, 1/4 or way less horsepower amp(very roughly figuring watts to horsepower for the amp).
A mechanical problem I have seen with some modern 12ax7 and other preamp tubes: sometimes the pins are smaller diameter then the pins found on vintage seven and nine pin miniature tubes! Check them with a micrometer against vintage tubes and you might be surprised. Sometimes they don't want to stay in place in the sockets of vintage equipment (such as hanging upside down in a guitar amp!) or the tube won't make a good reliable electrical connection until you thoroughly clean and retension the tube sockets. Retensioning tube sockets is usually a good idea, but you might have to almost mangle them in order to get the contacts to close significantly to grab ahold of the pins on some modern tubes. I have also seen modern Chinese tube sockets that were way way too snug to easily accept vintage tubes.
i've found new manufacture 12AX7-type sockets have an accompanying slightly tighter tension to suit the thinner pins, try replacing the socket!
On a serious side, I totally agree with all you said. An excellent video my friend,
Phil.
The engineers at AUDIO RESEARCH state plainly that newly made tubes experience shifts in their operating parameters for some period of time after being manufactured. They put all their tubes through a 48 hour burn-in cycle so that their characteristics stabilize. I would tend to trust what the engineers at Audio Research say about that. They SHOULD be subject matter experts, and they are.
They're exactly right. I find that the bias voltage stabilizes after 25-50 hours. 48 hours is right in that window. After that, the tubes seem to hold their characteristics for another 500-1,000 hours.(power tubes)
literally the ONLY thing I could see in a "tube ring" would be potentially to nullify physical feedback. Say your doing bass-heavy content and the sound pressure from your speakers are physically rattling the tube and could cause a feedback oscillation, it would dampen that. However, I can contradict this thought by saying the dampener would vibrate with the tube! so, yea snake oil. Anyways, the efficiency and design of the speakers make or break the entire setup. Your right there. Just like a transmitter, your Antenna is everything! you could pump 10KW into a small wire and barely get down the block. Or 5 watts into a highly tuned high gain antenna at the top of the mountain and get around the world. (frequencies matter here too, but for the sake of argument I left that out).
Is it the same principle as a penis ring?
@@chrisdavies73 HaHA prolong ring for tubes!!!!!! i thought i heard of them some other place.....
In a guitar amp you need to damp oscillations of the preamp tubes sometimes, glass can resonate like the proverbial wine glass. However a tube screening can is probably as effective and useful in its own right.
what's the best way to protect the life of the components of your tube amp? Turn it on and off fully every time you take a break for 30 min or an hour... or leave it on, but put it in standby?
I’m still chuckling, you’re a brave man burning down myths using snake oil as a accelerator.
Wish I'd found this year's ago, absolutely spot on and entertaining as well. The most sense I've heard on these various subjects ever. Much enjoyed, cheers :-)
About 15 years ago I went to the Vacuum Tube Valley trade show. I amazed myself. Out of a building full of vacuum tube amplifiers I picked out by hearing alone the one solid state amplifier at the show. It reminded me why I bought my first solid state amplifier in 1968 and never looked back. There's something about the sound of tube amplifiers I don't like. I have a very fine turntable and cartridge but I prefer the sound of CDs. To each his own.
In the 1980's I worked with high end surveillance cameras. The imagers were vidicon and high end Ultricon tubes. A shipment came in of 200 RCA Ultricons. Low light 1 inch format tubes worth $400 apiece. It would take years for the shop to go through all those tubes. Upon advice from RCA Lancaster we built a rack to socket 20 tubes with a filament supply. We were told that the tubes required a burn-in of 2 hours to circulate any gas present so the getter could capture it. It seems that helium can slowly creep through the glass and kill the cathode.
I totally agree with you, I worked in Hi-Fi retail for years and although the products 'in the middle' was Transistor based and it always amazed me the amount of BS there is even in the Enthusiast publications. The critical factor is the delivery and that is upfront and speakers. The amplifiers I would suggest are of say 70% good to perfection and most speakers vary widely from 20% through at a push to 50%. Over the years I have built my own speakers and always modify the drivers. Even after running in period there is way too much resistance in the suspension and I cut away most of the spider and remove the dust cover. The enclosures I have made are 1/4 wavelength twin parallel pipes in a transmission folded horn and resonance damping and speaker chassis fixings are by magnet support while the chassis surround is held against the cabinet by foam. I glue a ceramic piezo onto the apex of the cone on light supports and rewire the pigtail wires and balance with Bi-Polar caps and resistors and a few millihenries air core inducers. This method enables the speaker to more accurately follow the signal path and the harmonics and imagery is second to none and single point source providing the amplifier is well balanced and also has good harmonic figures and good imagery and leaning toward a softer than harsh output. Now am retired am thinking about Tube amplifiers and so far my first bit of kit is a Capacitor discharge wand using a 10 Watt ceramic 470 Ohm resistor. Great videos and Seasonal Greetings from London UK
You are absolutely right. Speakers should be the best you can afford, as they are really the only thing that provides the sound information. My system is a Technics SU-V505 connected up to Kef 104/2 and the sound detail that comes from this setup is the best I have ever heard. And I use standard RCA cables and speaker cable.
I’ve been through the cork sniffing nos trip, guilty of spending WAY too much money on tubes until the day I experienced a moment of clarity. I just want gear that doesn’t fail on stage. Nobody in the audience can tell ( or care) what tubes I use, as long as the music doesn’t stop.
That's what it is right there
Heck yeah! These cryo treated tubes I'm sellin' are genuine! I stuck 'em in my freezer last week, and they're still in there, just next to my vodka, right now! You'll be cry-oing tears of joy when you here 'em!
Many preamp tubes have metal covers/sleeves to prevent RF interference so how does is the heat dissipation argument valid?
They don't have dead air space, acting like an insulator to hold the heat in. Often times, you will see aluminum heat shields, that fit snugly onto the glass. That direct contact helps conduct heat away from the glass, so the tube really doesn't get that much hotter, than if the tube was just exposed. Faraday shields are usually only used on gain stage tubes, which don't usually produce much heat in the first place. you'll almost never see them on phase splitters, power tubes, or rectifier tubes, which are the ones that get the hottest.
With the talk of vibration to tubes-I can remember in some mic preamps-TT preamps the preamp chassis was mounted on rubber-and spring suspension mounts from the main chassis-this worked well-and NO snake oil-specifically Ampex Re/PB tubed amplifiers in their 350 series tape machines.
Put all this right along with the $125 duplex outlets with gold contacts, little telephone poles for the speaker wires, pointy pyramids to support the speaker cabinets and on and on . . .
dont forget the monster cables to the speakers
@@robames1293 and of course they have to be oxygen free or some such . . .
@@robames1293 Few years ago I returned even to old DIN plugs and sockets and I am still happy with them - they provide better spring type contact than permanently oxidized bronze or dusty/dirty gold cinch which require more force, double connecting and care for channels mixing. . .
@@robames1293 : There is SOME justification for some form of Monster cables. If you need to send a lot of power to a speaker over a fair difference, low resistance key. That said, the only difference between generic 10 gauge stranded wire and Monster 10 gauge stranded wire is the extra money you spend.
Now, once you include connectors, it becomes more complicated.
Some premium connectors ARE better than others. You are also paying for the convenience of somebody else installing them.
Recently I discovered there is a speaker cable that has arrows on it. It's sold by a couple of 'high end' audio companies. They say the cable is 'directional' and for correct sound reproduction you must use their cable with their equipment, and you must connect it with the arrows pointing towards the speakers. Yes, it's just ordinary copper inside the plastic, and the price per foot is just ridiculous.
Sorry. Tube ringing and microphonics and feedback can be minimised with the help of dampers. I am having a 4P1L DHT preamp, Eurotubes dampers has completely eradicated those problems. It sounds fantastic.
Tube dampeners do help for "tube rattle" in a combo guitar amp. Not for microphonic tubes tho. I know first hand. I bought a whole pack of silicone ones for 9 bucks off Amazon and was super happy with the result.
Hey mate. Did they last? I’m having the same problem.
Great great info! I'm not so sure on tube dampers in a guitar combo amp. If I hold a tube that audibly rattles when I shake it by the plug end, but then hold it by the glass and it doesnt ring anymore, or is more quiet I'd say they are doing something. Now I dont think its neccesarily through the audio signal. There's also a difference between tube rattle and microphonic tubes. I've had tubes that rattle that sound fine through the audio signal, but rattle loud enough to be picked up by the mic on the speaker at the gig. That's where attempts to quiet that rattle are warranted, especially when tubes can begin to rattle in a guitar combo amp in relatively short time.
way to get to the heart of things!! tube vibration & microphonic tubes are two entirely different phenomenona that may often make each other worse, but result from different root causes. i can see benefits of *certain* tube dampeners that do not significantly limit or will even improve heat dissipation.
This is the BEST channel on RUclips. Been into Tube Rolling for a LONG time at 70 years of age and so far, I agree with EVERYTHING you say. I just don't bother telling people these FACTS It's worse than politics or religion.
I totally agree with you. Only thing probably worth investing in to improve tube amp aside from better tubes which is obvious is ensuring they get proper cooling to ensure they ideal operating state. It won't make them sound better but certainly will extend their life expectations. I personally like hybrid tube pre amp designs (when done properly). Certainly the best way to improve the system is investigate in analogue listening device. Best regards.
I actually agree with just about everything you said. I've spent money on RUBY tubes, and they weren't nearly as good as a pair of 6L6's I bought from china for 1/4 the price. The RUBY tubes glowed around the screen grids, like Neon bulb electrodes, there was absolutely NO glow discharge, or fluorescence from the cheap Chinese tubes. In fact, they were the best 6L6 tubes I've ever tested. If the tubes are biased using cathode follower resistors, I agree, there is little to no change over time. I have found, that power tubes, that use a negative bias supply, with very low resistance between the cathodes and ground will change characteristics in the first 25-50 hours or so, meaning, you need to re-check the bias on new power tubes. After that, they seem to hold their characteristics pretty close, for the next 500-1,000 hours. Again, if the amplifier biases it's power tubes with cathode follower resistors, there will be little to no change over the entire life cycle of the tubes. For microphonic dampers to work, there has to be a visco-elastic polymer, with a large mass on the outside of the rings, to do anything at all. I would NEVER recommend these on power tubes, because of heat. They only make sense on the input gain stages of the amplifier, where signal to noise ratio of the tubes is most critical. At line level or above, there just isn't enough gain to make a noticeable difference. They make more sense for your pre-amplifier, on the tubes that amplify the signal from a tape head, or phono cartridge, but not for the tone block or the output to the power amplifier. Don't waste your money putting these things on your power amplifier. Not enough gain to matter. There are probably 2, maybe 3 tubes in your entire system, that MIGHT benefit from tube dampers.
Thanks for the your views, always interesting. I must say being a guitarist I do use the valve/tube rings in my guitar Amps which I find helps reduces the vibration going through the tubes/valves which I believe/think/hope! Make some last a little bit longer!?!?, maybe. For me it's a cheap and easy way of hopefully prolonging the life of something which is used in fairly hostile environments (loud volumes, being moved all the time, etc)
Mesa Boogie uses and sells some 12AX7s with "dampers", a small rubber band 1/2" wide. Dampers do help a cheap tube be less microphonic. The Mesa Boogie amp I used had tubes located 3 - 6 inches from the speaker in a very high-gain circuit.
It is odd that people obsess over vacuum tube "magic". Audiophiles and guitar players seem to be the easiest to dupe when it comes to tube audio "magic" and snake oil.
From what I have experienced, circuit design, component quality, and component layout have more effect on the "sound" of an amplifier than the tubes themselves.
BUT, someone gave me a pair of old RCA "black-plate" 6L6s which made my Mesa Boogie Mk IV sound so sweet. They only lasted about 8 months.
My tube experience is mostly from the perspective of audio/sound "creation" rather than reproduction, but there are still common issues when it comes to tubes.
If you want to really go to the next level of audio "sweetness", acoustical treatment is one of the best investments you can make in home audio. Quality room treatment rarely malfunctions or becomes obsolete. ruclips.net/video/tKWAI21G0bc/видео.html
ok, enough of my drunken rambling.
remember all mesa tubes are chinese junk(shuagang china 10$ each). after upgrading 2 lonestars with nos tubes i can tell you one thing. swap those shitty tubes! i recommend either nos mullards(marshall vox tone) or ge jan 12ax7wa or rca 7025 in v1 at least
Those rubber tube damps could be a cure for premature ejaculation 👀
JJ are supposed to be made to vintage standards.
My first amp build was a Fender 5c3 Deluxe guitar amp that I modified to accept glass 6SL7'S instead of the stock metal 6SC7'S. I cheaped out by installing used 6SL7'S. They were microphonic even when the amp was idling . Installing AutoZone O-rings, did (mostly) cure the microphony issues BUT swapping out those tired old preamp tubes for brand new Sovtec reissues performed 1000% better with no dappers required. So yes, sometimes you can polish a turd but it's almost always better to flush the toilet.
Your advise to optimize the end points of the system is spot on.
I'd like to learn more about the "burn in" philosophy because to my ears I hear a difference in power tubes after ~10-20 hours of "burn in." Most notably, I hear it on my Mullard 20W that I built with KT77 tubes. The highs mellow out and the bass/mids opens up in a more 3D way to my ears. I agree there's no reason to pay for "burn in time" though, since you'll get there after just a dozen or two records, but I'd be surprised if a brand new tube sounded the exact same as a 20 hour tube. (I'm an EE, but I do make my living using my ears).
There is a slight change in bias voltage and transconductance in the first 25-50 hours of run time, then, the tube settles in, and is quite stable for the bulk of its service life. If you have an amplifier with bias settings, you will be making slight adjustments for the first little while after replacing the output tubes. After that, it should need little attention for the next 500-1,000 hours. If the amplifier uses cathode followers to bias the tubes, there will be very little if any difference. You MIGHT notice something if the cathode followers are bypassed with capacitors to increase gain. If so, the change in transconductance, (or the voltage gain)of the tube could be noticeable in a A/B test. The thing is, it's so gradual, your ears will adjust faster than the tubes will change characteristic, and you probably won't notice a thing.
Right on! There are good and bad tubes, new and old. In preamps, especially it helps to select the best ones. Low microphonic designs had extra supports. Yes regarding speakers and cartridges. They are electromechanical transducers, with all kinds of issues. From an old tube engineer and audio fan; son of a transducer engineer.
I have been playing electric guitar for 60 years, so I got to play through NOS tubes when that's all there was. There are some pretty darn good sounding Russian made tubes out there (which we cannot get any longer as of this writing), and I will admit to coming out of an era when you just strapped on your guitar and plugged up and flipped the switch and just played. We took it for granted that it was all going to sound good.
Today, we analyze every thing that vibrates or heats up! Whoever is designing today's tubes is doing a pretty good job of making them sound as warm as the old ones, in my humble opinion. I will agree with the writer below me that the combination of heat and vibration help to lessen tube life, and the overall build quality of the NOS tubes might have added to their life span. Overall, we were fortunate just to still have tubes to buy in this micro-circuit day and age. Who knows when that time will come back again, considering the state of this world ...
To debunk something,you are actually supposed to “prove” you are right! You’re just giving your opinion which I’m debunking by disagreeing with, so now what? People, trust your own ears! He wares glasses right? You think he can see as good as someone who doesn’t? No, but unfortunately there is no glasses for people with broken ears! Cheers! 😋
Finally someone with the guts to debunk this Voodoo nonsense. I build and repair tube guitar amps under the name Hurricane Tube Amplifier. I had a customer come in with a vintage Fender to replace the stock power cord "16 gauge" with a 12 gauge power cord, someone convinced him you can get better tone with the heavier cable. I can almost believe this nonsense if you where drawing near 20 amps, the Fender amplifier may draw 2 amps. Guitarist are into this Voodoo also!
Totally agree on new tubes. Lots of very good ones out there and old ones...you just never know without rolling them which ones will be good and which ones might be duds.
Tube "burn in" is really just part of the QC testing phase. Tubes with problems from the factory can fail early and a "burn in" can identify tubes that should be culled from being used or sold.
No opinion on cryotubes. I doubt it matters at all. And no way to validate it without doing it yourself.
I disagree on tube dampers. I have had situations where a tube damper has cured a microphonic situation in a tube and allowed it to work in a system where it was noisy before. I think I have videos showing it. The dampers change the mass of the tube and the resonant frequency of the tube overall. I think your logical fallacy is forgetting that a standing wave can be set up in an object like a tube and the whole thing can resonate at certain notes. You will notice this with guitar very easily. I mean, you can hit a note on guitar and hear a microphonic tube, and then you can put ONE FINGER on the culprit tube (the OUTSIDE of the tube, mind you!) and the noise stops. A damper is just putting a finger on the tube, so to speak.
I'll leave it at that for now. Fun topics.
I'm with you Brad the tube rings helped on my Dynaco tube amp as its close to speakers and would get "muddy' when cranked. Rings fixed it and was very noticeable. Z.K.
Agreed. Another good way to prevent microphonics is to isolate the tube socket with rubber grommets on the mounting screws. I would say dampers are almost mandatory if you're using ef86 preamp tubes in a guitar amp.
@@drew945101 same for EF184/EF183. They're pretty microphonic
The best one I've heard is Monster Cable saying they had the best Speaker Cable because they used a special multi-sized stranded cable made from 3 different gauges of OFC (Oxygen Free Copper twisted together into one centre core. The Bass Frequencies would travel down the large gauge strands, the Midrange Frequencies would travel down the medium gauge strands and the Treble Frequencies would travel down the fine gauge strands of wire. Keep in mind these 3 different gauges of bare wire (OFC Copper) were twisted together into 1 multi-stranded centre core. I knew nothing about all this stuff back then and busted out laughing because even I knew that was Bullshit. Oh, wait a minute maybe they were using "Smart Frequencies" that has AI (Artificial Intelligence) and the AI Frequencies were smart enough to know which wire they are supposed to use.
God Bless You and Your Family!!
Jimmy in NC....
Not from me, I'm an EE and I totally agree! My absolute favorite is the high priced stands to hold your wires off the floor. I asked the guy who makes them to prove to me they do absolutely anything whatsoever.
"People love to buy BS in the audiophile hobby. What it comes down to is, "I want the best. I want the absolute best and I'm willing to pay whatever it takes to get that." " Wise words. You summed it up in a nutshell. I will use that quote. People with more money than brains is a common theme no matter where you go.
Some people wish to have everything the best.But completing audio system by own concept seems like assembling excellent wardrobe with excellent parts from different makers on one condition that joints and sizes match, Very strong and durable. But colors of parts were impossible to state and very different
I recently tried a number of tubes in my RIAA amp. First. You are right. The one I enjoyed most was a new Genalex Gold Lion ECC83.Second. Although most of the tubes did not change, the set of GE JAN 12AX7WA sounded horrible the first 8-10 hours or so, then it suddenly just woke up and everything was there. Sonically (as in balanced registers, defined bass and so on) it became the best tube, but it crushed the soundstage compared to the Genalex for some reason. I actually have recorded sound-bits from before and after the change if anyone is interested. The difference is not subtle.
At the same time, that very same type GE JAN 12AX7WA (another unused one) put into the preamp stage on my integrated Hybrid amp, it just immediately was there. My theory is that the hybrid amp has more current potential while the RIAA stage is weaker and needed a little time to fully engage the tube. I don't know enough of the real workings in a tube, so my guess is a really uneducated one.
I would really want an educated explanation (guess) on why this happened? The tubes tested was the original Tung-Sol 12AX7, RCA (Heinz and Kaufman) 5751 WA (1957), Genalex Gold Lion ECC83 (2016), GE JAN 12AX7WA (1975). Only the GE tube had any hint of burn in difference, well maybe very short on the RCA but I am not certain about that.
As a reference: as of April 4th 2022, ONE Sovtek AX7LPS is going for $85.00! Bad times for tube enthusiasts.
Mr Carlson has also said in at least one video that current production tubes are good quality. I believe this, but I would like to see this proven out by some of you guys with the tools and knowledge to do so. You couldn't prove sound quality, but you could test conformance to spec, behavior in circuits that run them right up to electrical tolerance, etc...
they will never do it! they will say it's subjective and not worth it but collect all the nos they can get .
You are absolutely right. Spend money on better speakers, it makes a huge difference. Also, consider improving the acoustics of your listening room. A heavy rug and/or drapes or curtains will take care of unwanted reflections.
Acoustics are very important, I've found that the Audyssey sound/room correction software employed in some receivers, Denon in particular, does a pretty good job of room correction as long as the room doesn't have too much reverberation.
Interesting video! I found most interesting the part about the "Tube Dampers" because although I agree with you about the devices being total BS, there is a bit of sense in doing something about the vibration. But as I began to rapidly think of how to keep the vibrations of a nearby speaker from affecting the tubes, no matter how I configured a "fix" to keep the vibration from the tube, the net result was to over heat the tube! It might be a bit of a hassle, but the best bet would be to keep the amp and the speakers separate from each other!
That tube damper ad even as you read it was so hypnotic I almost thought " I need those!" I think I'm going to invest time playing instead of money.
This is great! Very real, down to earth thoughts! I use copper wire and plain electrolytic caps and foil caps in my builds. Nothing fancy, no oil caps, definitely no "bumble bee" caps! The sound is fine too my ear. I do favor glass tubes purely for looks, but find metal tubes pick up less interference.
Oil caps have their place - in high voltage (I am talking kilovolts, here) electronics. The benefit is that the oiled paper dielectric is self healing. A HV spike will not ruin the cap.
Regarding tube "break-in," tube makers recommend that tubes be used for some period of time (i.e. X hours) before their performance is judged. Personally, I have heard this phenomenon many times. It is not subtle. Sometimes the changes are "punctuated." Using familiar recordings is the best way to discern these changes. (I am a nerd who takes notes on what I hear. Testing must be repeated at different times for confirmation). You are absolutely correct that other parts, especially capacitors, can take a long time to perform their best, so I am careful to do any evaluations only in amps that are "broken in."
BTW, interconnect cables are capacitors. In my experience, the best ones typically have the lowest capacitance per meter and require break in. Exotic dielectric materials, such as nitrogen foamed polyethelene are being used to keep capacitance down. Air is the best dielectric. Personally, I use pure soft silver wire in loose cotton webbing - vitually no break in.
While I appreciate sound skepticism, I don't understand your thinking about tube dampers. Have you never heard a wine glass ring? Do you believe that airborne vibrations picked up by the glass envelopes of tubes and the equipment in which they sit are not transmitted through the tube base to the internal elements? Sure the effect is small. Depending on the tube and the resolution of the system, it can be audible. Dampers, depending on their design, material, and mass, will reduce the moment of any such vibrations. Remember, too, that the transformers of vacuum tube gear also produce vibrations through the amp. Dampers add mass to the tubes.
The effect of dampers naturally is greater on the small signal tubes. One does not need to be in an 18 wheeler to hear a difference on a sufficiently revealing system. If you want to prove to yourself that adding mass reduces unwanted vibrations put some significant weights atop your speakers.
You may also be aware that tube amp manufacturers, some of them, use tube dampers, particularly in guitar amps.
I've never bought into the cryo fad. I have heard a slight difference from burn in thought from different components including tubes, I've proved it to myself by playing a song for my wife and we both could hear the sibilant voice and harsh treble, after I burned it in a few hours I noticed it already sounding better turned it off to verify it wasn't just because it was warmed up then an hour later turned it on again and it still sounded better so I had the wife listen again to the same song and she was surprised that the treble was now smoother and pleasant. I've done the same thing before with switching various brands of vacuum tubes, some brands just sound better and my wife never knows the brand yet she always ends up picking the same ones. Most of the time it is just a subtle difference but sometimes it can make or break the sound. I find this a more common among tube amps then solid state.
ruclips.net/video/mpUhlHMxSuI/видео.html
Audio Advisor, a magazine that for some reason has started showing up in my mail is full of snake oil like $100 power cords that are "guaranteed to improve sound", and super expensive USB cables for your digital audio that eliminate distortion. I've got news for you. In the digital world, a 0 is a 0 and a 1 is a 1. A distorted 01110011 is still 01110011, and will get processed exactly the same, because numbers are numbers! Oh, and there's also "magic" solder (Western Electric) that if you're not using it, your audio will suffer greatly! The sound improvement is so dramatic that it won't show up in any subjective test, but you know it's there because you can feel it!
i didn't believe it either but now i know a better usb cable(all metal no plastic) improves sound quality and also has more volume which isn't a subjective
claim.
“Love to buy bull.” That says it all. Great video and you made us laugh👍👍
Another great video. Agree with you 100% on all the bs out there. I am far from an audiophile as I know I can't hear worth a darn any more and that comes to everyone the older they get. The start and end points are so important as you say in having a good sounding system. I love reading other forums where they have page after page of how their 400$ electrical input cable improves their system so much and they can tell when it is plugged in vice just a "common" ac cord and everyone there is like "Oh wow I need one" and "You are so right, I could tell immediately!" BS!!
I completely agree with most of what you're saying Mark. There are a couple of issues that I'd like to comment on. I use a lot of EF86 tubes in my guitar amp builds and microphonics is an issue with them. I use and recommend some sort of mechanical damping because it can make the difference between usable and unusable. The same is true with metal 6SC7 tubes in early 50's Fender amps. Having said that, I don't use fancy aftermarket devices. I use O-rings from a mechanics supply store and occasionally heat shrink. It doesn't make the tubes sound any better, it simply gets you past the defect inherent in the tube.
As for burn-in of tubes, I agree that I've not seen them sound better after hours of use. What I do find is that power tubes take a few heating and cooling cycles before the bias current is truly stable. I've always attributed that to expansion and contraction of the internal components of the tube. It shows up really well if you compare tubes from a re-seller with tubes coming right off the boat prior to burn in and matching.
Worth noting that 1950s audio preamp/amp manufacturers and even a few guitar amp manufacturers (a few Magnatone models) put the preamp tubes and sockets on metal plates that were isolated from the main chassis with rubber grommets for the purposes of shock and vibration dampening. They must have had some real-world experience that this was helpful, otherwise why would the manufacturer is go through the extra time and cost of building things this way?
"I use a lot of EF86 tubes in my guitar amp builds and microphonics is an issue with them. "
If microphonics are a consistent problem with EF86s, I'd change the design to use a different tube.
Electromechanical devices like cartridges and speakers do need a few hours of break-in in order to get to published spec.
Electrolytic caps may need a few hours of forming to come up to best performance. Other caps and passive components do not. Tubes may need a few hours to fully activate the emissive coating on the carhode.
And finally, I personally cannot tell the difference in the sound of good solid state amps and good tube amps - I do prefer solid state due to being easier and lower cost to build.
Dave Kazoroski Last time I got to such conclusion about ECO that with tubes we are much more ecological than with solid. Tubes are totally natural with glass and metal except only slight use of gas traps. Production requires mostly heat and mechanical work and main component is something as natural as vacuum :). . Production is simple comparing to ICS or transistors requiring high standards and plastic and chemistry. I am talking about audio amplifiers, not telephones or tablets anyway:).
Re; Burn-in of tubes. Aren't they already burned in before they leave the factory?
Love your videos, I completely agree with your prognosis on audiophile snake oil. Speakers are the most important by far for sound, I've had Carver Amazing Loudspeakers, ESS AMT1A's, Acoustat 1+1's, Magneplaners and now use a homebuilt pair of towers with the ESS Air Motions Transformers reproducing the highs, extremely efficient and sound wonderful. Oh and by the way, still own all the speakers I've ever had except the Carver Amazing's.
That was great. I have so many audiophile people preaching to me that I need expensive 1960 NOS tubes. I’m really happy with just recently made tubes. I have tinnitus so I have changed some that sound bright to me. The new Mullard works good for me at 34 bucks.
You are correct IMO; input feed and output are the factors on sound quality. Learned that at an early age... I still love the sound of the my Magneplanar MG-III's. Six foot ribbon tweeters can't be beat.
Great video. Agree on Sovtek 12AX7, use them and the standard Sovtek EL84 in my guitar amp. Have tried many others... Not NOS admittedly... But always go back to the Sovteks. They sound great.
Great rant & amen brother. I’ve never spent more than @$10-12 per tube except to buy a GZ34 rectifier....sooo I’ve not tried a 12ax7xps yet. I do love the JJ ec803s. Usually, in most spots, I prefer a GOOD ol’ 12at7 over a 12ax7.....smooths out the sound......saves $.
Mark, I can see there being a physics basis for all these claims of "better sound". The audiophile industry has been specification obsessed since the transistor introduction. I'm a victim of this. Obsessions like this aren't unique to audio, same thing in golfing, jewelry, photography, automotive, etc industries. What I've learned over decades of research is that none of this matters because what sounds good to you, might sound like crap to me. Person-to-person perception of sound is highly variant. Here's the most fascinating part, take all this marketing hype and throw it out for tube guitar amps. Careful designers specifically want their amp characteristics to be theoretically horrible because that what's sounds good. When I started my tube amp work about 5 years ago, I had to ditch my analog EE PhD and look at non-linearity as a good thing. Completely counter-intuitive to everything I've learned. Thanks for the video, I love your passion.
agree with your remarks about personal choice of sound quality. Any magic tube sound is only a choice to "colour" the original sound, and is not an indication that the output is truly just a more powerful image of the input.
It could be argued that if tube amps were superior in that respect there would be an insatiable demand for tubes in scientific and medical equipment
I have even heard it said that tubes would be better in digital audio processing: a position that could not be supported by any scientific proof.
Finally, I would say that if you enjoy spending money on audio and then challenging people to prove that you can`t hear any difference, I wish you many happy hours of listening
@@johnmeredith3368 Well, I didn't throw in age-based hearing degradation. Personally, my once 'good ears' both ring a little, left more than right. So the intermodulation that ringing produces is something that I consider now. At this point, playing music anywhere on anything is all good, well except those who listen on their phone's internal speaker. I'll pull some amp/speaker setup out of storage and give it away when I see or hear that. Happy new year!
Great video. One angle: Many of these might come from guitar players. The first one especially, since they're not listening to hifi or on paper performance, but the "performance" when heavily overdriven or fed near-square wave signals in a very odd application. Likewise, tube dampers. Tubes don't need to be in a truck to be shaken hard. Just be in a big combo amplifier with ear splitting guitar or bass speaker element rattling its case. Plus, musicians are weird and very prone to GAS (gear acquisition syndrome).
Can I interest you in some MUFFLER BEARINGS?
Doppler fluid for the high freqs; eddy currents to clean your gear?
Got any brake oil?
Only chrome reverse muffler bearings. I want the best!
Only if their made of OFC
Don't forget under head drag arms!