I realized my late high school/early college years how much I sucked at Auditions. I made a goal of getting to 100 rejections before giving up entirely. I got to 29 before getting my first AFA union violin/viola gig. I wish I'd taken your approach. Honest assessments, recording yourself, and putting yourself out there are great tactics. I can tell you are already a competent DB player, and are on a fast track to becoming a GREAT one. Keep that material coming. Love it.
One of the comforts of live performances is that you won't have someone listening through over and over in order to find mistakes. It's one of the hardest parts of recording. I entered the NYACOP this year. Just got found out that I didn't make it into the second round. I would have been more than happy with any of my performances had they been live, but because the first round is recorded, every little mistake is going to get picked apart.
I've only been playing bass for a few years, was a woodwind in highschool (3 decades ago!). I noticed you are breathing the rests when they fall on accented beats (like first beat in a bar), that's a technique I've not brought into my bass playing but certainly will be now. Thanks for the great video, I'm definitely gunna watch all your other videos!
This is a really cool video! Thanks for sharing. You are pulling a great sound, and you're really good at getting separation in e.g. the marcato Brahms, or the G's in the Beethoven Trio. I think you can do even more with phrasing and contrasts. E.g. in the first Brahms excerpt, I think the accented notes at 127 can sound much more connected than what came before, because there's no dots above. In the second Brahms excerpt, I think the sf's 6 before M can sound a lot more explosive compared to what came before. I think a lot of this is hearing the full orchestral context in your mind's ear while you play. Find some recordings of these pieces that you like (recordings from the last two decades will probably be the best guides), and listen closely to what they do with contrast and phrasing to make the whole piece move forward.
They will judge quickly, and the very second note you played lasted 2 and a half beats (the bar was shortened), and the octaves didn't match well. So basically starting with a yellow flag
Percussionist here, love the video! My only point of disagreement would be that, if I were listening to this audition, I would probably consider the timing issues in the second movement to be the most egregious error even over the extra measure of rest (although you played well enough that in this case "egregious" means "not perfect" lol). Although this is obviously from a very biased perspective, I figured you might want to consider it in case there are percussionists listening in in the future. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the feedback! I’ll take a percussionist’s feedback on rhythm any day of the week! Quick clarity question, did you mean the second excerpt? Instead of 2nd mvt? Thanks again
Love this idea! I have an audition coming up later this month. If I record it, would you be willing to do a similar assessment of it for me? I know the idea is to do it yourself, and I will, but you could make a similar video to this one just as another tool/example for players out there!
Yes I would definitely be willing to do that, as long as you are okay with that. Send me an email if you would like to discuss further. Email is on the channel page. Thanks!
This is an awesome video. I’m a classical singer and I really wish that we did auditions like this, with excerpts or performing one piece. Was this done behind a curtain? I’m going to start asking if I can record my auditions!
@@jakethurston-doublebass they’re not fun, you sing in front of the panel and usually bring an aria package of 4-5 pieces. Most places allot you an eight minute time slot but sometimes they’ll cut you short if they’re running behind or if they just didn’t like you. Then you usually have to wait weeks to know if you’ve won the audition or not. It’s a very nerve wracking process 😅
@@notsogoodbassplayer it’s similar then in the fact that you can get cut short if they don’t like you. I’m curious why there isn’t a screen, it does seem to do a lot to eliminate biases. Also every audition I’ve been to, they’ve also let us know who advances and who doesn’t on that day, that’s pretty rough…. Good luck out there!
@@jakethurston-doublebass I assume the lack of screen is to get a taste of the singers acting ability, who knows! And good luck to you too, man! I really enjoyed your playing and thank you for helping me find another way to keep my self accountable as a musician!
Maybe the ff at 134 should be different from what comes before, and also from poco f at 136 ? Also no diff between the accents and the sf in general … I m just an ordinary orchestra cellist but I think those kind of details count (also the cresc at 147 maybe) … Just trying to guess … Anyway, keep up the good work ! So nice and interesting to listen. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Try playing with recordings if you don't do that often. The committee doesn't want to hear a bass player playing a particular bass excerpt. They want to hear a musician making music, if that makes sense. They can really tell who listens and plays with recordings and looks at the score, and who doesn't. You wouldn't think it'd be that noticeable, but it is. Gotta be able to play Mozart 40, B5 trio, and Brahms 4th movement off the string or it just won't be clear enough on most basses. The Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall has a video of Janne Saksala talking about his musical origins and there's some clips of him playing Beethoven 5, that's the level of clarity and the kind of stroke you want to aim for. Especially the Beethoven 5 and Mozart 40 have to be very energetic and athletic and the way you played them felt sluggish and overbearing, if that makes sense. Lots of good things though, best of luck in your future endeavors!
Thank you for your feedback! I agree with your takes on the Beethoven 5, Moz 40 and Brahms 4th mvts. In my practice these strokes are always clearer, in an audition there tends to be a little tension in my right arm. I've eliminated most symptoms of nerves in auditions over the years, but this one is tricky. I think it just needs work and time to build that confidence in the off the string strokes. And yes, I've listened to and played with recordings but I need to do more in this area, enough is never enough. Thanks again and glad you enjoyed!
@@jakethurston-doublebass Might be able to fix a lot of it with more rosin and having your bow hair a little tighter. I tried everything and couldn't get a good off the string stroke until I slathered some more pops on the hair and tightened it a bit more. Now it's the only way I can play lol.
In general your slurred passages are missing the correct character for the pieces (misterioso feeling for beethoven pp slurred entrances, the smooth yet percolating espressivo in the brahms etc). I would really try to look at some recordings and really track down what character you want. Detail without character is going to be very limiting in a tough audition landscape. I know it sounds obvious but to me it trumps even the technical issues (bc I know you can get those with time). I think what you're doing of recording is really good. Are you playing lots of mocks for people? Sometimes you have to find a few people out of your comfort zone that can give you some directed ideas. Keep it up. It's such a tough circuit. Don't lose your love for music
Well I’ll say that this was definitely out of my comfort zone as you can imagine 😂. But I’ve gotten some excellent feedback, including yours, thank you! As far as mocks, I usually do some, but perhaps not enough. I really like what you have to say about character, I’ll keep that in mind going forward. Thanks again!
Premise: I am a violinist I don't really know you, where you work or where are you auditioning or anything... I got here by chance, and my two cents are that you are really not making music anymore. This is on an insane physical technical level, like thinking about rosin and one note being slightly too long or too short. But then the phrasing is completely absent, if the composer writes a progression you never make it clear, in the second Brahms excerpt the only thematical line you had was exactly split in half (and accented inside the legato) ruining the only example of legato you could have given. In the Mozart you have a pedale at the end and you play 4 bars of exactly the same note, every single one identical to the previous. It's only my two cents and you probably have more experience than me in the audition world. But I feel like thinking like a musician and less like an instrumentalist could help you
In the Mozart you accented EVERY down beat, again destroying any idea of phrasing. This can all come from me being a violinist, but I don't think auditions for bass don't take phrasing and musicality into account
Yes bass auditions take phrasing and musicality into account just as any other high level audition would. I agree with your criticism, being overly focused on technique can cause musicality to be left to the wayside, and I appreciate your specific feedback as well. The way I tend to think about this is, addressing the technical problems will help give the player more freedom to then express the music. I guess I view the technical problems as the low hanging fruit that needs the work first, once that is solved the higher levels of musical expression can become the focus. Thanks for the feedback!
Also a violinist, and please understand I have tons of respect for you putting this out there. You address the dynamic compression inherent in voice memos, I think there’s a little bit of that going on BUT I think in auditions they really want you to go for it dynamically. The crescendo in to fortissimo at the end of the first excerpt started out great and lost steam half way through, and the fortissimo wasn’t impactful; again it could be because of the compression factor, but the waveform would be much more filled out in the graphical representation, probably, if it was an appropriately loud fortissimo. I don’t know if DB players are taught the same way, but I find it helpful with dynamics on the violin to start from a place of using as much bow as possible all the time and varying pressure and speed to get dynamics. Again thank you for putting this out there, this is such a healthy and important practice.
I agree. The voice memos do compress the dynamic range, but there was plenty more I could have done myself. Regardless of what came out on the iPad it clearly wasn’t enough to sway the jury to give me the job so there is more work to be done. Thanks for your feedback!
Speaking as a violinist here so some of my comments might be a bit unfair as life is just less awkward on a violin compared to a bass but anyway: - Your tone needs some work imo. It might just be the iPad recording and I know the bass isn't the quickest instrument to speak, but sounds like you are getting a bit 'stuck' in the string which might also be the cause of some of the rythmic inaccuracies, especially when you are bouncing off rests. - The rythmns and basic sense of pulse is not always accurate, sometimes by quite a lot. Beethoven 3 3rd movement opening extract is a good example, your pulse wavers to a huge extent from bar to bar, the second phrase is significantly slower than the first phrase even though it is still the same tempo and you start the rits way before they are printed (I know it is a famous extract and conductors are going to do different things with their interpretations, but you need to be able to play what is on the printed page as a starting point). Conductors will give you death stares you for those kind of rhythmic/tempo errors. - The phrasing, or rather lack of it. It just isn't there at all a lot of the time, sorry if that sounds harsh. A lot of it just sounds like a 1-bar chunk followed by an unrelated 1-bar chunk without any real sense of the overall music (yes it is hard without the rest of the section and orchestra there with you, but you need to be able to hear the context of the extract in your head). You start to add a bit more phrasing in the last extract but by that point in the audition it is too late. - Your dynamic range is pretty much the same all the time, just a solid mf - f for 90% of the extracts. You occasionally play a bit quieter when it is obviously marked at the start of an extract but then creep back up to your 'comfortable mf - f' dynamic again. Brahms 2 4th movement is a good example, you acknowledge that you start too loud which is true but not only that, you crescendo noticeably through the passage even though it is not marked to where it says 'sempre pp' (implying that you should have still been at pp previously!). A string player not being able to play a proper pp or even quieter dynamics is massively frustrating because it only takes one player to ruin the overall dynamic. The easiest way to play pp is to just air-bow and let your desk partner do the work, the audience will still hear a sound (honestly a lot of string pros will be doing that in the super quiet passages, I did a concert recently where I was sat behind the leader had a ppp solo with no-one else playing and he literally did not make any sound for the whole of the first bar until it got up to pp). Ok it is harder to do that in an audition, but if you can master showing of the contrasts between the extremes of your dynamic range (without losing the sense of pulse/tempo) then you will instantly impress the panel. - I don't think you have a reliable sautille or 'off-ish' bow stroke for the fast quaver passages. Without wanting to sound harsh, you seem to play everything (apart from the last extract) detache which leads to it sounding messy. I guess it is harder on bass but that sautille/'off-ish' stroke is literally my go to stroke for anything fast unless the conductor specifically doesn't want it. It just makes life easier because the bow just plays the stroke itself and everything is relaxed and you start to worry less about the notes. - Maybe getting hyper-critical here, but there isn't really any difference with how you play Mozart compared to how you play Beethoven or Brahms. I don't think you really get the style of the more 'Classical' extracts. it is too thick/heavy and detache all the time. You need shorter staccato quavers and more sense of nervous energy/raised eyebrows/chattering teeth in the way you play the music. - For double bass playing, a lot of the difficult passagework in classical/romantic literature may not have specifically written for the bass. It was kind of expected that bassists would fudge things and miss out notes to simplify the passages. Berlioz was pretty scornful of the practice in his treatise on orchestration. The instrument wasn't particularly standardised either, Beethoven's orchestras probably had bass viols and double basses playing in a mix of tunings in 4ths and 5ths and with anything from 3-6 strings. While the audition panel is obviously going to expect some auditioning to be able to play all of the notes, I think you should worry less about the actual notes and focus a bit more on the dark arts of never letting yourself lose a sense of the pulse/tempo and rhythmic precision and persuading the audition panel that all the notes were played perfectly. - The double bass is one of those weird instruments where the audience doesn't really hear exactly what individual players are doing but it is very obvious if it isn't there. I think you need to think more about producing a sound that isn't going to stand out extraneously. - On a constructive note, I think the last extract (Beethoven 3 3rd movement trio section) was pretty good even though you seemed to be disappointed with it. You had a far better sense of overall phrasing, it was more stylistic and danced more, the stroke was much lighter and crisper, the pulse was solid for the most part, you acknowledged the dynamics (though still could do more). Try to play the other extracts a bit more like that is what I would suggest. - As more general comments, an orchestra isn't looking for soloists from tutti string players. What they want are (in rough priority order): 1. Players who are consistently accurate with ryhthms and dynamics and who will not need reminding about the basic things on the printed page. 2. A string sound that is pleasant (not necessarily virtuosic) and that is going to blend with the rest of the string players in the orchestra. 3. Someone with good enough technical skills to deal with whatever is thrown at them in a short timescale (but also have enough musicalitiy to never lose sight of points 1 and 2). 4. How the player is going to get on and work with the other players in the orchestra (though that can't really be judged at a blind audition). TLDR: Worry less about individual notes/technical challenges and think more about the overall musicality of the extracts.
Thanks for your feedback! Don't worry about sounding harsh, I think that honest, straitforward feedback, both positive and negative is the best way to learn. Especially when it comes in this much detail from a high level player. I appreciate you taking the time to wirte that much and will take it to heart.
@@jakethurston-doublebass No worries. Going into more detail beyond the technical points I would also suggest (some points covered by other people as well): - I am sure that you know and have played the pieces that the extracts come from many times and have listened to recordings, but you really need to be listening to recordings (and a few different versions for each extract) constantly (and sometimes with a full score + bonus points for listening to the whole symphony for a general guide on musical style). You need to know not only everything there is to know about that section of music, but also the context of how it fits into the whole movement. Be careful to note where a recording might be pulling things around in a different way to the printed notes (sometimes things are done differently as 'standard conventions' but I would go with what is on the printed extract given to you to be on the safe side). You need to know whether your part is doing the same thing as the cellos/bassoons or if it is doing something different, know where the melody is (is it in the violins or a solo wind part or maybe in fact the tune is in your part), know what is happening in the inner parts (maybe the violas have some complicated rhythmic accompaniment that cant be pulled around) and where the brass punctuate cadences etc. - Practise playing a really short, punchy and dry staccato. I think it will really help a lot with making your sound clearer. The bass is so reverberent that you really need to exaggerate everything and cut notes off really short if it is marked to be played short. - Also practise your variety of articulations, there isn't always that much difference between a . staccato marking and a > accent or fp accent in your playing. Also consider the context of the articulation marking within the period/composer of the piece (a > accent marking means something different in a Mozart part compared to a Brahms part). For example, in the first Brahms extract, I think that the > markings from 127 actually means full and heavy, sustained notes with a bit of weight on the front of the note because it comes after that phrase where there is a . over every note and it says ben marcato. However, you play those accents with a bit of a gap between each note. Brahms is all about that constant feel of weight pulling you down imo. - Think about the period and style more. There is a difference between Beethoven (who was still classical really but being experimental and a bit 'unusual' in a lot of ways) and Brahms (where the orchestra was already getting bigger and you can hear the lines getting thicker and heavier, less monophonic and rhythmic complexity becoming more important, musical forms getting stretched etc. but really Brahms roots lie a lot closer to Beethoven than many of his romantic composer peers who were writing music at the same time). Mozart is a different kettle of fish though, the orchestra would have been much smaller so you need to be able to show that you can play lightly and delicately. - An example on phrasing, the Mozart has antecedent and consequent (question and answer) phrasing in the main theme of the movement. That extract is from the development section so the theme is chopped up as it modulates. If you know the piece inside out you will know that the 4-bar phrase at the start of the extract is the main theme which the cellos/basses get to play dramatically for the first time in the movement. You still do end up playing the consquent phrase in 132-135, just delayed by 4 bars and having modulated to a different key (while you play those awkward quavers the violins play a 'false' question phrase which doesn't get answered) so you need to phrase your answering phrase accordingly. - Add your own take on the atmosphere/mood/feeling for each extract and try to reflect that as you are playing each extract to make them have more character. It doesn't have to be anything particularly groundbreaking or original, just something simple and obvious is fine (e.g. the start of Beethoven 5 3rd movement being super quiet and mysterioso/ethereal or Mozart 40 having nervous energy/restlessness). - Find musical shortcuts for where the printed notes are a bit up to interpretation so you can play them the same way each time without having to think about it. For example, the start of Beethoven 5 with the poco rit in bar 17, just keep the tempo absolutely constant but play bar 17 as two minims instead of a minim followed by a crotchet (and the same thing in bar 7 but the basses dont have the moving line there so it is trickier). - Again, dynamic contrast is everything (especially quiet dynamics).
Keep up the work. I commend you sincerely on this.A wonderful idea. You were aware of many things but not enough. You never once mention musicality. I was missing a general flow of the music. Phrasing seemed non existant and everything seemed to be all on the same dynamic level. Dynamics need to be clear . Not to mean exagerated. Clean up your stroke. Moz was terrible I’m sorry to say. Sounded legato. Brahms 2 4th mvt is ALL about playing quiet as possible. The first mvt was ok for maybe someone who has never heard the piece before. There was absolutely no drive. This is all right-hand work. Rhythm is more than playing exact. Good luck in your pursuit and keep at it. Maybe we’ll be colleagues some day. Merry Christmas
Be careful publicly admitting to breaking an orchestras rules about recording your audition, someone could watch that’s potentially going to review your resume 👋
Wow this is a really great resource to show how we, as musicians, can productively reflect on our performances and auditions. Really nice job!
Thanks! I’m glad you found it useful.
I realized my late high school/early college years how much I sucked at Auditions. I made a goal of getting to 100 rejections before giving up entirely. I got to 29 before getting my first AFA union violin/viola gig. I wish I'd taken your approach. Honest assessments, recording yourself, and putting yourself out there are great tactics. I can tell you are already a competent DB player, and are on a fast track to becoming a GREAT one. Keep that material coming. Love it.
Thanks for your kind words! I’m glad you’re enjoying. 29 auditions is dedication I’m glad it worked out for you.
One of the comforts of live performances is that you won't have someone listening through over and over in order to find mistakes. It's one of the hardest parts of recording. I entered the NYACOP this year. Just got found out that I didn't make it into the second round. I would have been more than happy with any of my performances had they been live, but because the first round is recorded, every little mistake is going to get picked apart.
Very true. Sometimes the best way to grow is for it to get picked apart though. But it definitely can be nerve racking knowing something is recorded.
What a great idea for a video-this is awesome!!
Thanks Jason! Glad you enjoyed!
Im a violinist planning to audition for a music camp this summer, and this will help a ton! Thanks!
Good luck!
To me, your sound improved a lot in the second to last piece, and continued to the end.
I've only been playing bass for a few years, was a woodwind in highschool (3 decades ago!). I noticed you are breathing the rests when they fall on accented beats (like first beat in a bar), that's a technique I've not brought into my bass playing but certainly will be now.
Thanks for the great video, I'm definitely gunna watch all your other videos!
Thanks! Breathing is really important, but I would avoid breathing as loud as i do. It’s kind of a bad habit 😂
This is a really cool video! Thanks for sharing.
You are pulling a great sound, and you're really good at getting separation in e.g. the marcato Brahms, or the G's in the Beethoven Trio.
I think you can do even more with phrasing and contrasts. E.g. in the first Brahms excerpt, I think the accented notes at 127 can sound much more connected than what came before, because there's no dots above. In the second Brahms excerpt, I think the sf's 6 before M can sound a lot more explosive compared to what came before.
I think a lot of this is hearing the full orchestral context in your mind's ear while you play. Find some recordings of these pieces that you like (recordings from the last two decades will probably be the best guides), and listen closely to what they do with contrast and phrasing to make the whole piece move forward.
Thanks for your feedback!
They will judge quickly, and the very second note you played lasted 2 and a half beats (the bar was shortened), and the octaves didn't match well. So basically starting with a yellow flag
Nice catch! I didn’t notice that. Thanks!
Percussionist here, love the video! My only point of disagreement would be that, if I were listening to this audition, I would probably consider the timing issues in the second movement to be the most egregious error even over the extra measure of rest (although you played well enough that in this case "egregious" means "not perfect" lol). Although this is obviously from a very biased perspective, I figured you might want to consider it in case there are percussionists listening in in the future. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the feedback! I’ll take a percussionist’s feedback on rhythm any day of the week! Quick clarity question, did you mean the second excerpt? Instead of 2nd mvt? Thanks again
@@jakethurston-doublebass I meant the second excerpt - Brahms 2 4th movement measure 268. Sorry for the typo!
Thanks!
Love this idea!
I have an audition coming up later this month. If I record it, would you be willing to do a similar assessment of it for me? I know the idea is to do it yourself, and I will, but you could make a similar video to this one just as another tool/example for players out there!
Yes I would definitely be willing to do that, as long as you are okay with that. Send me an email if you would like to discuss further. Email is on the channel page. Thanks!
Thanks for putting this out ... and good luck with the next audition!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed
Very instructive, thanks!
Glad you found it useful!
I got all region audits this Saturday, let's hope I make it 😄
Good luck!
This is so helpful, thank you!
Glad you found it useful!
This is an awesome video. I’m a classical singer and I really wish that we did auditions like this, with excerpts or performing one piece. Was this done behind a curtain? I’m going to start asking if I can record my auditions!
Yes it was done behind a curtain, most are, at least in the US. What’s the process for auditions you have taken?
@@jakethurston-doublebass they’re not fun, you sing in front of the panel and usually bring an aria package of 4-5 pieces. Most places allot you an eight minute time slot but sometimes they’ll cut you short if they’re running behind or if they just didn’t like you. Then you usually have to wait weeks to know if you’ve won the audition or not. It’s a very nerve wracking process 😅
@@notsogoodbassplayer it’s similar then in the fact that you can get cut short if they don’t like you. I’m curious why there isn’t a screen, it does seem to do a lot to eliminate biases. Also every audition I’ve been to, they’ve also let us know who advances and who doesn’t on that day, that’s pretty rough…. Good luck out there!
@@jakethurston-doublebass I assume the lack of screen is to get a taste of the singers acting ability, who knows! And good luck to you too, man! I really enjoyed your playing and thank you for helping me find another way to keep my self accountable as a musician!
@@notsogoodbassplayer yeah that makes sense. Thank god I don’t have to act. And thanks! I’m glad you found it useful.
Maybe the ff at 134 should be different from what comes before, and also from poco f at 136 ?
Also no diff between the accents and the sf in general … I m just an ordinary orchestra cellist but I think those kind of details count (also the cresc at 147 maybe) …
Just trying to guess …
Anyway, keep up the good work ! So nice and interesting to listen. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Those details definitely count. Thanks for the feedback! Glad you enjoyed
I believe that in Beethoven 5 bar 198-205, you accidentally played some f#, especially at 205.
Thanks for your feedback!
Try playing with recordings if you don't do that often. The committee doesn't want to hear a bass player playing a particular bass excerpt. They want to hear a musician making music, if that makes sense. They can really tell who listens and plays with recordings and looks at the score, and who doesn't. You wouldn't think it'd be that noticeable, but it is.
Gotta be able to play Mozart 40, B5 trio, and Brahms 4th movement off the string or it just won't be clear enough on most basses. The Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall has a video of Janne Saksala talking about his musical origins and there's some clips of him playing Beethoven 5, that's the level of clarity and the kind of stroke you want to aim for. Especially the Beethoven 5 and Mozart 40 have to be very energetic and athletic and the way you played them felt sluggish and overbearing, if that makes sense.
Lots of good things though, best of luck in your future endeavors!
Thank you for your feedback! I agree with your takes on the Beethoven 5, Moz 40 and Brahms 4th mvts. In my practice these strokes are always clearer, in an audition there tends to be a little tension in my right arm. I've eliminated most symptoms of nerves in auditions over the years, but this one is tricky. I think it just needs work and time to build that confidence in the off the string strokes. And yes, I've listened to and played with recordings but I need to do more in this area, enough is never enough. Thanks again and glad you enjoyed!
@@jakethurston-doublebass Might be able to fix a lot of it with more rosin and having your bow hair a little tighter. I tried everything and couldn't get a good off the string stroke until I slathered some more pops on the hair and tightened it a bit more. Now it's the only way I can play lol.
@@leifdering3600 I’ll try some extra swipes next time. Thanks!
In general your slurred passages are missing the correct character for the pieces (misterioso feeling for beethoven pp slurred entrances, the smooth yet percolating espressivo in the brahms etc). I would really try to look at some recordings and really track down what character you want.
Detail without character is going to be very limiting in a tough audition landscape. I know it sounds obvious but to me it trumps even the technical issues (bc I know you can get those with time). I think what you're doing of recording is really good.
Are you playing lots of mocks for people? Sometimes you have to find a few people out of your comfort zone that can give you some directed ideas.
Keep it up. It's such a tough circuit. Don't lose your love for music
Well I’ll say that this was definitely out of my comfort zone as you can imagine 😂. But I’ve gotten some excellent feedback, including yours, thank you! As far as mocks, I usually do some, but perhaps not enough. I really like what you have to say about character, I’ll keep that in mind going forward. Thanks again!
Premise: I am a violinist
I don't really know you, where you work or where are you auditioning or anything...
I got here by chance, and my two cents are that you are really not making music anymore. This is on an insane physical technical level, like thinking about rosin and one note being slightly too long or too short.
But then the phrasing is completely absent, if the composer writes a progression you never make it clear, in the second Brahms excerpt the only thematical line you had was exactly split in half (and accented inside the legato) ruining the only example of legato you could have given.
In the Mozart you have a pedale at the end and you play 4 bars of exactly the same note, every single one identical to the previous.
It's only my two cents and you probably have more experience than me in the audition world. But I feel like thinking like a musician and less like an instrumentalist could help you
In the Mozart you accented EVERY down beat, again destroying any idea of phrasing. This can all come from me being a violinist, but I don't think auditions for bass don't take phrasing and musicality into account
Yes bass auditions take phrasing and musicality into account just as any other high level audition would. I agree with your criticism, being overly focused on technique can cause musicality to be left to the wayside, and I appreciate your specific feedback as well. The way I tend to think about this is, addressing the technical problems will help give the player more freedom to then express the music. I guess I view the technical problems as the low hanging fruit that needs the work first, once that is solved the higher levels of musical expression can become the focus. Thanks for the feedback!
Also a violinist, and please understand I have tons of respect for you putting this out there. You address the dynamic compression inherent in voice memos, I think there’s a little bit of that going on BUT I think in auditions they really want you to go for it dynamically. The crescendo in to fortissimo at the end of the first excerpt started out great and lost steam half way through, and the fortissimo wasn’t impactful; again it could be because of the compression factor, but the waveform would be much more filled out in the graphical representation, probably, if it was an appropriately loud fortissimo. I don’t know if DB players are taught the same way, but I find it helpful with dynamics on the violin to start from a place of using as much bow as possible all the time and varying pressure and speed to get dynamics.
Again thank you for putting this out there, this is such a healthy and important practice.
I agree. The voice memos do compress the dynamic range, but there was plenty more I could have done myself. Regardless of what came out on the iPad it clearly wasn’t enough to sway the jury to give me the job so there is more work to be done. Thanks for your feedback!
I wish TMEA All-State process auditions let us record. Great video and idea!
I'm surprised they wouldn't let you. It's a good educational tool to be able to review
@@jakethurston-doublebass it is but they don’t want us to record other people
That makes sense… but still. Wish you could record.
contest that doesn't mean anything lol
@@jakethurston-doublebass yeah it sucks but it’s texas so
was your mozart 40 intentionally on the string?
Not intentionally no. My Mozart stroke definitely needs improvement.
I'm so bad at hearing these things! Maybe it's because I don't know what to listen for, but to me they all sounded fine.
As you continue to improve and record yourself, you’ll hear more. I’ve gotten comments on things that I didn’t even notice from people as well.
I think you played a B natural in bar 130 of the Mozart
I think I pushed the Bb fairly sharp coming off the A natural. But I hadn’t noticed this. Nice catch! Thanks!
Speaking as a violinist here so some of my comments might be a bit unfair as life is just less awkward on a violin compared to a bass but anyway:
- Your tone needs some work imo. It might just be the iPad recording and I know the bass isn't the quickest instrument to speak, but sounds like you are getting a bit 'stuck' in the string which might also be the cause of some of the rythmic inaccuracies, especially when you are bouncing off rests.
- The rythmns and basic sense of pulse is not always accurate, sometimes by quite a lot. Beethoven 3 3rd movement opening extract is a good example, your pulse wavers to a huge extent from bar to bar, the second phrase is significantly slower than the first phrase even though it is still the same tempo and you start the rits way before they are printed (I know it is a famous extract and conductors are going to do different things with their interpretations, but you need to be able to play what is on the printed page as a starting point). Conductors will give you death stares you for those kind of rhythmic/tempo errors.
- The phrasing, or rather lack of it. It just isn't there at all a lot of the time, sorry if that sounds harsh. A lot of it just sounds like a 1-bar chunk followed by an unrelated 1-bar chunk without any real sense of the overall music (yes it is hard without the rest of the section and orchestra there with you, but you need to be able to hear the context of the extract in your head). You start to add a bit more phrasing in the last extract but by that point in the audition it is too late.
- Your dynamic range is pretty much the same all the time, just a solid mf - f for 90% of the extracts. You occasionally play a bit quieter when it is obviously marked at the start of an extract but then creep back up to your 'comfortable mf - f' dynamic again. Brahms 2 4th movement is a good example, you acknowledge that you start too loud which is true but not only that, you crescendo noticeably through the passage even though it is not marked to where it says 'sempre pp' (implying that you should have still been at pp previously!). A string player not being able to play a proper pp or even quieter dynamics is massively frustrating because it only takes one player to ruin the overall dynamic. The easiest way to play pp is to just air-bow and let your desk partner do the work, the audience will still hear a sound (honestly a lot of string pros will be doing that in the super quiet passages, I did a concert recently where I was sat behind the leader had a ppp solo with no-one else playing and he literally did not make any sound for the whole of the first bar until it got up to pp). Ok it is harder to do that in an audition, but if you can master showing of the contrasts between the extremes of your dynamic range (without losing the sense of pulse/tempo) then you will instantly impress the panel.
- I don't think you have a reliable sautille or 'off-ish' bow stroke for the fast quaver passages. Without wanting to sound harsh, you seem to play everything (apart from the last extract) detache which leads to it sounding messy. I guess it is harder on bass but that sautille/'off-ish' stroke is literally my go to stroke for anything fast unless the conductor specifically doesn't want it. It just makes life easier because the bow just plays the stroke itself and everything is relaxed and you start to worry less about the notes.
- Maybe getting hyper-critical here, but there isn't really any difference with how you play Mozart compared to how you play Beethoven or Brahms. I don't think you really get the style of the more 'Classical' extracts. it is too thick/heavy and detache all the time. You need shorter staccato quavers and more sense of nervous energy/raised eyebrows/chattering teeth in the way you play the music.
- For double bass playing, a lot of the difficult passagework in classical/romantic literature may not have specifically written for the bass. It was kind of expected that bassists would fudge things and miss out notes to simplify the passages. Berlioz was pretty scornful of the practice in his treatise on orchestration. The instrument wasn't particularly standardised either, Beethoven's orchestras probably had bass viols and double basses playing in a mix of tunings in 4ths and 5ths and with anything from 3-6 strings. While the audition panel is obviously going to expect some auditioning to be able to play all of the notes, I think you should worry less about the actual notes and focus a bit more on the dark arts of never letting yourself lose a sense of the pulse/tempo and rhythmic precision and persuading the audition panel that all the notes were played perfectly.
- The double bass is one of those weird instruments where the audience doesn't really hear exactly what individual players are doing but it is very obvious if it isn't there. I think you need to think more about producing a sound that isn't going to stand out extraneously.
- On a constructive note, I think the last extract (Beethoven 3 3rd movement trio section) was pretty good even though you seemed to be disappointed with it. You had a far better sense of overall phrasing, it was more stylistic and danced more, the stroke was much lighter and crisper, the pulse was solid for the most part, you acknowledged the dynamics (though still could do more). Try to play the other extracts a bit more like that is what I would suggest.
- As more general comments, an orchestra isn't looking for soloists from tutti string players. What they want are (in rough priority order):
1. Players who are consistently accurate with ryhthms and dynamics and who will not need reminding about the basic things on the printed page.
2. A string sound that is pleasant (not necessarily virtuosic) and that is going to blend with the rest of the string players in the orchestra.
3. Someone with good enough technical skills to deal with whatever is thrown at them in a short timescale (but also have enough musicalitiy to never lose sight of points 1 and 2).
4. How the player is going to get on and work with the other players in the orchestra (though that can't really be judged at a blind audition).
TLDR: Worry less about individual notes/technical challenges and think more about the overall musicality of the extracts.
Thanks for your feedback! Don't worry about sounding harsh, I think that honest, straitforward feedback, both positive and negative is the best way to learn. Especially when it comes in this much detail from a high level player. I appreciate you taking the time to wirte that much and will take it to heart.
@@jakethurston-doublebass No worries. Going into more detail beyond the technical points I would also suggest (some points covered by other people as well):
- I am sure that you know and have played the pieces that the extracts come from many times and have listened to recordings, but you really need to be listening to recordings (and a few different versions for each extract) constantly (and sometimes with a full score + bonus points for listening to the whole symphony for a general guide on musical style). You need to know not only everything there is to know about that section of music, but also the context of how it fits into the whole movement. Be careful to note where a recording might be pulling things around in a different way to the printed notes (sometimes things are done differently as 'standard conventions' but I would go with what is on the printed extract given to you to be on the safe side). You need to know whether your part is doing the same thing as the cellos/bassoons or if it is doing something different, know where the melody is (is it in the violins or a solo wind part or maybe in fact the tune is in your part), know what is happening in the inner parts (maybe the violas have some complicated rhythmic accompaniment that cant be pulled around) and where the brass punctuate cadences etc.
- Practise playing a really short, punchy and dry staccato. I think it will really help a lot with making your sound clearer. The bass is so reverberent that you really need to exaggerate everything and cut notes off really short if it is marked to be played short.
- Also practise your variety of articulations, there isn't always that much difference between a . staccato marking and a > accent or fp accent in your playing. Also consider the context of the articulation marking within the period/composer of the piece (a > accent marking means something different in a Mozart part compared to a Brahms part). For example, in the first Brahms extract, I think that the > markings from 127 actually means full and heavy, sustained notes with a bit of weight on the front of the note because it comes after that phrase where there is a . over every note and it says ben marcato. However, you play those accents with a bit of a gap between each note. Brahms is all about that constant feel of weight pulling you down imo.
- Think about the period and style more. There is a difference between Beethoven (who was still classical really but being experimental and a bit 'unusual' in a lot of ways) and Brahms (where the orchestra was already getting bigger and you can hear the lines getting thicker and heavier, less monophonic and rhythmic complexity becoming more important, musical forms getting stretched etc. but really Brahms roots lie a lot closer to Beethoven than many of his romantic composer peers who were writing music at the same time). Mozart is a different kettle of fish though, the orchestra would have been much smaller so you need to be able to show that you can play lightly and delicately.
- An example on phrasing, the Mozart has antecedent and consequent (question and answer) phrasing in the main theme of the movement. That extract is from the development section so the theme is chopped up as it modulates. If you know the piece inside out you will know that the 4-bar phrase at the start of the extract is the main theme which the cellos/basses get to play dramatically for the first time in the movement. You still do end up playing the consquent phrase in 132-135, just delayed by 4 bars and having modulated to a different key (while you play those awkward quavers the violins play a 'false' question phrase which doesn't get answered) so you need to phrase your answering phrase accordingly.
- Add your own take on the atmosphere/mood/feeling for each extract and try to reflect that as you are playing each extract to make them have more character. It doesn't have to be anything particularly groundbreaking or original, just something simple and obvious is fine (e.g. the start of Beethoven 5 3rd movement being super quiet and mysterioso/ethereal or Mozart 40 having nervous energy/restlessness).
- Find musical shortcuts for where the printed notes are a bit up to interpretation so you can play them the same way each time without having to think about it. For example, the start of Beethoven 5 with the poco rit in bar 17, just keep the tempo absolutely constant but play bar 17 as two minims instead of a minim followed by a crotchet (and the same thing in bar 7 but the basses dont have the moving line there so it is trickier).
- Again, dynamic contrast is everything (especially quiet dynamics).
Keep up the work. I commend you sincerely on this.A wonderful idea. You were aware of many things but not enough. You never once mention musicality. I was missing a general flow of the music. Phrasing seemed non existant and everything seemed to be all on the same dynamic level. Dynamics need to be clear . Not to mean exagerated.
Clean up your stroke. Moz was terrible I’m sorry to say. Sounded legato. Brahms 2 4th mvt is ALL about playing quiet as possible. The first mvt was ok for maybe someone who has never heard the piece before. There was absolutely no drive. This is all right-hand work. Rhythm is more than playing exact.
Good luck in your pursuit and keep at it. Maybe we’ll be colleagues some day. Merry Christmas
Thanks for your feedback! Merry Christmas!
Pitchy
😮😮😮
Be careful publicly admitting to breaking an orchestras rules about recording your audition, someone could watch that’s potentially going to review your resume 👋
Yeahhhhhh, wasn’t quite expecting this video to get this much attention. I’ll have to be a little more discreet in the future.