Yeah, this tier list is mostly based on 2p and 3p as that's what I play most of the time. The thing is: I don't think a lot changes when moving to 4p or 5p other than that I think Tharsis and Credicor become stronger. But: I don't have that much experience with higher player counts and I want to talk about what I know best.
6 дней назад+1
''A context I'd play Inventrix is if my hands sucks ass'' hahahahaha, you killed me with that one! funny but also true
you should 3D map out a tier list where each axis is 2player, 3player, 4-5player creating a tier list plane. then you can do the tier planes for the various expansions added. could be cool to see how the planes transform over all the corps to see potential trends
A big mistake in the judgement of ECOline - ecoline RUSHES herself and definitely not afraid of rushing by other corps as it gets weaker and weaker as game progresses (map is full and oxygen is full) and due to less production of resources compared to other hard tech corps
I think you misunderstood my point. I said Ecoline is too poor to set up a strong engine and therefore needs to go for a rush. Maybe I worded it a bit weirdly, but of course you're right. Ecoline needs to rush - it's super bad in a long game!
I think Phobolog is very strong when it works. I won all of my 3 TM games this year (I don't remember if I played TM more in 2023, before those 3) with this corp. But it might be very rare statistically.
It CAN work out really well. As I said, if you get strong early game space tags that also produce more titanium like Io Mining, Asteroid Mining or Vesta Shipyard and can combine this with card draw to draw more space tags for the mid and late game then it can definitely work out well. But we have to average out the performance of corps across all different starting hands and with Phobolog, you definitely run into unplayable starts more often than with other corps.
are there any rules to prevent a terrible start? lets say I draw phobolog and thorgate, and have a terrible starting hand. is there a rule to redraw my hand at least? or can I choose to redraw corps once?
There are no official written rules on this and I can imagine why. It's super hard to quantify when your start is actually really bad enough to require a reroll. You would have to implement some house rules on this I'm afraid.
@@marsexpert4276 thanks for the answer. we have the house rule when playing base game to not have phobolog and thorgate in the pile, and have them available as an option IF you have the hand for them or dont like the two you get.
You can forfeit the game immediately. Usually a loss is enough of a deterrent for players not to abuse mulligans but sometimes you just don't get anything in the starting hand. Better to give up immediately than suffer a couple hours and lose by 80 points.
Well, we will be in disagreement there. I think that Tharsis is quite average in 2p/3p which is what I mostly play. When picking your corp you also cannot know yet which corps your opponents will play, so you cannot actively pick it to counter Ecoline.
Do you play or recommend any house rules for the strongest or weakest corps? New viewer, thanks for your work on this series. [Edit: For any future viewers, he's already made a video on this, "How to BALANCE the Base Game and Prelude Corporations?!?"]
@@solarupdraft hahaha yeah, I made a video about this, but I have to admit, I have never used any house rules as I am sadly not playing the game on the board very often. I moved for work last year and left my board gaming buddies behind...
I did not intentionally leave it out...I just kinda forgot about it. But to be honest, I have never played with it or even played a game where someone else played with it. I just think it's kinda boring :D It would probably be B or C tier I guess. Depends a lot on the starting hand tho.
Yes, it is mostly based on 2p (and 3p). I don't play a lot of 4p/5p - in those formats, especially Tharsis is a lot better. I would disagree on Saturn Systems and Mining Guild tho. Yes, Saturn's ability will get triggered more often in theory, but Jovians are a long game strat, so playing them in 4p/5p where games are shorter is less fabourable, meaning you don't want to play them as much (and just don't get the time to) and your opponents wont play them as much, triggering your ability less than you think. Mining Guild get's much much worse with more players, again because the games are shorter. Mining Guild wants to go heavy engine and it just doesn't have the time to.
I mainly play 2p/3p so all I'm going to say needs to be taken with a grain of salt if you play 4p or 5p. Also, keep in mind that I will not list every small change, but these are some of the things that have changed since my last tier list: 1. Rushing is more prevalent. If you can close out the game fast, and your opponent is trying to set up an engine you're almost guaranteed to win. Of course this requires the right setup, some skill and also some luck to draw the right cards, but corps that can perform well in a rush are preferred. Teractor, Credicor and Ecoline are all excellent rush corps, so that's part of the reason they are so high up here. 2. Heat prod is king and it killed off oxygen bumbers. Why? Heat prod helps in a rush, but it also unlocks strong plant prod cards on the heat track. And since heat is so good, you don't want to play an expensive card that requires you to turn power into oxygen. 3. Cities are dead. In my older Videos you often hear me say that you need to protect your greeneries, since your opponents can place cities next to them and score points that way. That's still partially true. Don't set up 3- or 4-point city spots in the late game if you can avoid it. But especially in the early to mid game, cities are way too expensive to be placed next to 1 or 2 greeneries for some points and even if I already have a city down (maybe and early Research Outpost) I rather convert my greeneries next to oceans for good money rebates instead of next to the city. Points only matter at the end of the game, money is important throughout it.
Well, the tier list ranks the corporations based on their average strength. Every corp can be good in the right scenario, even Phobolog, but that's not the point. A corp that is only the right choice in the opening hand 5% of the time is clearly worse than a corp that is the right choice 75% of the time, even if the former is absolutely broken in those 5% of games.
I thought about the list a little bit more. I think Thorgate honestly should be C tier with all the expansions added. Unless of course you have a true F tier (then d tier). Thorgate doesn’t belong in the same tier is Phobolog imo. Otherwise agree.
Well, this ranking only considers how these corps perform with basegame, preludes and H&E. Their performance with Colonies, Venus and Turmoil doesn't influence their ratings. But you're right! As I said at the end of the Thorgate section, if you're playing with Colonies, Thorgate is much better, at least C tier, since it's guaranteed to get to 3 power prod easily (just two SPs) and can play the super useful power prod cards much more cheaply!
I hate that Thorgate is such a trap for new players. It breaks a sort of unwritten player-developer agreement that you shouldn't guide the player towards dead ends, that there should be some sort of strategic payoff when one is so heavily implied to exist and, in TM, Power Tags/Thorgate are exactly that, a huge dead end. This isn't to say that energy/prod is bad, just that the Tag itself points you in the wrong direction. Power Tags pretty consistently just pay out in... more energy, and often not really efficiently enough to justify going out of your way to obtain the tags to play them. There are, in the entirety of TM, only about 3 project cards that require Power Tags, and only one that explicitly cares about them. Less than 10% of cards have said Tags, over a third of which have requirements to play, meaning that said Tags are both uncommon and difficult to play, further making Thorgate just a little stinkier, but a new player doesn't have this perspective. When they pick up the game they expect the discount to be meaningful at the start of the game and often this leads them to pick up cards that are suboptimal to bad even when discounted, especially Power Grid. Most new players' first experience with Thorgate probably ends with 5-6 energy production, no real use for it other than maybe a bumper, and a heinously low score. Thorgate is, frankly, emblematic of one of TM's weakest elements. Rant over.
Yeah I completely agree. Like what does the power tag on your corp do for you? It only counts towards Power Supply Consortium or Power Grid. I just hate that corp 😅
Could do that definitely - especially Mining Guild since it requires quite a specific starting hand to work. But I think for now I'm happy with my ranking :)
Really? I've never heard of anyone who's games have gotten shorter. The main reasons for why I think they're getting longer are a) a lower percentage of terraforming cards in the deck (heat prod, plant prod, space events), b) more other stuff to do (you can terraform Venus, build colonies or invest into the politics system - all of this doesn't help end the game) and c) because engine play becomes a lot stronger with the introduction of colonies and more strong space and science tags.
@@marsexpert4276 well it is how it is, maybe we just became better at the game and that explains it, I don't know. Before we played 8 generations on average with 5 players, now we play 6 or 7 generations on average.
Is terractor really that great ? I mean there is literaly a 1 cost card that has the same ability. It started to be a joke corporation in our group because of this card. I guess money is really valuable early.
Teractor really is that good - yes its ability is the same as Earth Office which only costs 1MC, but Earth Office is also a top tier card because of that. And for Teractor, you have to combine that effect with 60MC of starting capital. If you compare Teractor to other corps, it's not only the ability, but also the fact that you just start off the game with 10-20 MC more than them which really makes a difference early on.
I don't think so, but it definitely depends on player count. If you're player 4 or 5 player games it's stronger. In 2 and 3 player games cities are not worth the high investment most of the time.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
you should do a corporation tier list for different numbers of players
Yeah, this tier list is mostly based on 2p and 3p as that's what I play most of the time. The thing is: I don't think a lot changes when moving to 4p or 5p other than that I think Tharsis and Credicor become stronger.
But: I don't have that much experience with higher player counts and I want to talk about what I know best.
''A context I'd play Inventrix is if my hands sucks ass'' hahahahaha, you killed me with that one! funny but also true
you should 3D map out a tier list where each axis is 2player, 3player, 4-5player creating a tier list plane. then you can do the tier planes for the various expansions added. could be cool to see how the planes transform over all the corps to see potential trends
Intersting concept for sure, but I have no idea how to do a 3D tier list 😅
A big mistake in the judgement of ECOline - ecoline RUSHES herself and definitely not afraid of rushing by other corps as it gets weaker and weaker as game progresses (map is full and oxygen is full) and due to less production of resources compared to other hard tech corps
I think you misunderstood my point. I said Ecoline is too poor to set up a strong engine and therefore needs to go for a rush. Maybe I worded it a bit weirdly, but of course you're right. Ecoline needs to rush - it's super bad in a long game!
I think Phobolog is very strong when it works. I won all of my 3 TM games this year (I don't remember if I played TM more in 2023, before those 3) with this corp. But it might be very rare statistically.
It CAN work out really well. As I said, if you get strong early game space tags that also produce more titanium like Io Mining, Asteroid Mining or Vesta Shipyard and can combine this with card draw to draw more space tags for the mid and late game then it can definitely work out well. But we have to average out the performance of corps across all different starting hands and with Phobolog, you definitely run into unplayable starts more often than with other corps.
@@marsexpert4276 Probably bad hand for UNMI is not that tragical as it is with Phobolog. But I think it's not that strong with the best hands.
I've also won 2 games in a row with Phob Log
@@alexanderjuliano2548 Nice.
So what you're saying here is that you'll beat my buns in T-mars lol! I haven't played in years but your video was in my recommended today.
Very useful, thanks 👌
are there any rules to prevent a terrible start? lets say I draw phobolog and thorgate, and have a terrible starting hand. is there a rule to redraw my hand at least? or can I choose to redraw corps once?
There are no official written rules on this and I can imagine why. It's super hard to quantify when your start is actually really bad enough to require a reroll. You would have to implement some house rules on this I'm afraid.
@@marsexpert4276 thanks for the answer. we have the house rule when playing base game to not have phobolog and thorgate in the pile, and have them available as an option IF you have the hand for them or dont like the two you get.
There is also taking fewer cards - if you only buy two cards out of your opening set, then you have more cash for the draft.
You can forfeit the game immediately. Usually a loss is enough of a deterrent for players not to abuse mulligans but sometimes you just don't get anything in the starting hand. Better to give up immediately than suffer a couple hours and lose by 80 points.
Where would you put the Beginner Corporation card?
B or C tier, but it depends a lot on the starting hand. It's quite good if your starting is amazing, but absolutely trash if not.
Tharsis is always my #1 corporation, especially when playing with Ecoline. In my opinion it is S
Well, we will be in disagreement there. I think that Tharsis is quite average in 2p/3p which is what I mostly play. When picking your corp you also cannot know yet which corps your opponents will play, so you cannot actively pick it to counter Ecoline.
Is S the best and D the worst?
Yes, S tier is the best and D tier is the worst.
Do you play or recommend any house rules for the strongest or weakest corps? New viewer, thanks for your work on this series. [Edit: For any future viewers, he's already made a video on this, "How to BALANCE the Base Game and Prelude Corporations?!?"]
@@solarupdraft hahaha yeah, I made a video about this, but I have to admit, I have never used any house rules as I am sadly not playing the game on the board very often. I moved for work last year and left my board gaming buddies behind...
Did you forget to rate the beginner corporation or just intentionally leave it out?
I did not intentionally leave it out...I just kinda forgot about it. But to be honest, I have never played with it or even played a game where someone else played with it. I just think it's kinda boring :D
It would probably be B or C tier I guess. Depends a lot on the starting hand tho.
are you planning to do tier lists on all the expos aswell?
Yes, I'll do Prelude corps next, but it'll take some time :)
Even disregarding cards being able to SP temp and getting 2 TR for 17 MC everyturn can net you some money real fast!
It's better than nothing for UNMI, but definitely not the best case scenario.
Is this tier list based on 2 player games? I imagine Tharsis, SS and Mining guild perform better in 4 player games than 2.
Yes, it is mostly based on 2p (and 3p). I don't play a lot of 4p/5p - in those formats, especially Tharsis is a lot better. I would disagree on Saturn Systems and Mining Guild tho.
Yes, Saturn's ability will get triggered more often in theory, but Jovians are a long game strat, so playing them in 4p/5p where games are shorter is less fabourable, meaning you don't want to play them as much (and just don't get the time to) and your opponents wont play them as much, triggering your ability less than you think.
Mining Guild get's much much worse with more players, again because the games are shorter. Mining Guild wants to go heavy engine and it just doesn't have the time to.
Credicor is the BEST!!
How has the competitive meta for the base game changed? Please back up your statements with some context 👍
I mainly play 2p/3p so all I'm going to say needs to be taken with a grain of salt if you play 4p or 5p. Also, keep in mind that I will not list every small change, but these are some of the things that have changed since my last tier list:
1. Rushing is more prevalent. If you can close out the game fast, and your opponent is trying to set up an engine you're almost guaranteed to win. Of course this requires the right setup, some skill and also some luck to draw the right cards, but corps that can perform well in a rush are preferred. Teractor, Credicor and Ecoline are all excellent rush corps, so that's part of the reason they are so high up here.
2. Heat prod is king and it killed off oxygen bumbers. Why? Heat prod helps in a rush, but it also unlocks strong plant prod cards on the heat track. And since heat is so good, you don't want to play an expensive card that requires you to turn power into oxygen.
3. Cities are dead. In my older Videos you often hear me say that you need to protect your greeneries, since your opponents can place cities next to them and score points that way. That's still partially true. Don't set up 3- or 4-point city spots in the late game if you can avoid it. But especially in the early to mid game, cities are way too expensive to be placed next to 1 or 2 greeneries for some points and even if I already have a city down (maybe and early Research Outpost) I rather convert my greeneries next to oceans for good money rebates instead of next to the city. Points only matter at the end of the game, money is important throughout it.
phobolog isn't that bad, it is just situational (very)
Well, the tier list ranks the corporations based on their average strength. Every corp can be good in the right scenario, even Phobolog, but that's not the point. A corp that is only the right choice in the opening hand 5% of the time is clearly worse than a corp that is the right choice 75% of the time, even if the former is absolutely broken in those 5% of games.
Bravo
I personally put Ecoline one down further but it's because I seem to be terrible with it, not due to anything logical. This list is great otherwise.
It's down to playstyle as well! If you like engine building and are better at that than rushing, then Ecoline is not for you.
I thought about the list a little bit more. I think Thorgate honestly should be C tier with all the expansions added. Unless of course you have a true F tier (then d tier). Thorgate doesn’t belong in the same tier is Phobolog imo. Otherwise agree.
Well, this ranking only considers how these corps perform with basegame, preludes and H&E. Their performance with Colonies, Venus and Turmoil doesn't influence their ratings. But you're right! As I said at the end of the Thorgate section, if you're playing with Colonies, Thorgate is much better, at least C tier, since it's guaranteed to get to 3 power prod easily (just two SPs) and can play the super useful power prod cards much more cheaply!
Sorry man. I must have missed that part. Totally agree in that case.
I hate that Thorgate is such a trap for new players. It breaks a sort of unwritten player-developer agreement that you shouldn't guide the player towards dead ends, that there should be some sort of strategic payoff when one is so heavily implied to exist and, in TM, Power Tags/Thorgate are exactly that, a huge dead end.
This isn't to say that energy/prod is bad, just that the Tag itself points you in the wrong direction. Power Tags pretty consistently just pay out in... more energy, and often not really efficiently enough to justify going out of your way to obtain the tags to play them.
There are, in the entirety of TM, only about 3 project cards that require Power Tags, and only one that explicitly cares about them. Less than 10% of cards have said Tags, over a third of which have requirements to play, meaning that said Tags are both uncommon and difficult to play, further making Thorgate just a little stinkier, but a new player doesn't have this perspective. When they pick up the game they expect the discount to be meaningful at the start of the game and often this leads them to pick up cards that are suboptimal to bad even when discounted, especially Power Grid.
Most new players' first experience with Thorgate probably ends with 5-6 energy production, no real use for it other than maybe a bumper, and a heinously low score.
Thorgate is, frankly, emblematic of one of TM's weakest elements.
Rant over.
Yeah I completely agree. Like what does the power tag on your corp do for you? It only counts towards Power Supply Consortium or Power Grid. I just hate that corp 😅
I would knock down mining guild and saturn systems to C tier, otherwise I think it's pretty solid rankings
Could do that definitely - especially Mining Guild since it requires quite a specific starting hand to work. But I think for now I'm happy with my ranking :)
1st time I ever play I had Phobolog no drafting I never got a space tag card entire game it was not fun
Yeah that's basically the Phobolog experience 😅
our games became shorter (number of generations) since we included colonies and turmoil, not longer
Really? I've never heard of anyone who's games have gotten shorter. The main reasons for why I think they're getting longer are a) a lower percentage of terraforming cards in the deck (heat prod, plant prod, space events), b) more other stuff to do (you can terraform Venus, build colonies or invest into the politics system - all of this doesn't help end the game) and c) because engine play becomes a lot stronger with the introduction of colonies and more strong space and science tags.
@@marsexpert4276 well it is how it is, maybe we just became better at the game and that explains it, I don't know. Before we played 8 generations on average with 5 players, now we play 6 or 7 generations on average.
Is terractor really that great ? I mean there is literaly a 1 cost card that has the same ability. It started to be a joke corporation in our group because of this card. I guess money is really valuable early.
Teractor really is that good - yes its ability is the same as Earth Office which only costs 1MC, but Earth Office is also a top tier card because of that. And for Teractor, you have to combine that effect with 60MC of starting capital. If you compare Teractor to other corps, it's not only the ability, but also the fact that you just start off the game with 10-20 MC more than them which really makes a difference early on.
Tharsis Republic is S tier, especially if you're playing with preludes.
Tharsis is really strong if your group favors ground games, but online, cities are less meta online. Still a good corp though
I don't think so, but it definitely depends on player count. If you're player 4 or 5 player games it's stronger. In 2 and 3 player games cities are not worth the high investment most of the time.
inventrix should be A
It's good and fun to play, but I don't think it quite reaches S tier.