Can't wait for next week or beyond when we see Tyrande gaslit even further into letting go of her home and people being burnt alive. I'll never not hate this story, Teldrassil is going to be swept under the rug I can feel it
As someone that was very big on Warcraft 3, i feel like Jaina (loved Arthas more than anyone else even after the whole stratholm issue) and Uther (who saw Arthas like a son) should have at the very least said good bye to the last remenants of Arthas. Even if they already mourned and came to terms with what happened, they shouldnt have just stood there like statues and at the very least said something.
For better or worse, both of them already "worked through" Arthas before. Jaina basically all the way since the end of Wrath up to BfA and Uther (obviously) mostly in SL. They really didn't have anything to say to him anymore. Sylvanas on the other hand was just given the chance to start "working through" Arthas and this cinematic is about her doing that just as much as it is about Anduin.
@@Avohaj >Sylvanas on the other hand was just given the chance to start "working through" Arthas Wtf do you mean. She was given the chance when she broke out of the Lich King's mindcontrol.She was there in ICC when we killed Arthas. She was given chance after chance to work on whatever issue she has. The reason why we get to see her direct scorn at an unfortunate character (much unfortunate than her, tbh) is because Danuser is a weirdo who thinkseveryone should worship his bodypillow waifu.
@@orkunakman1541 No she was not given the chance to work on anything like that after ICC because she was not written that way. You realize this is not a real person but a written character? She doesn't _actually_ have agency. What she got was the chance to go down the deep end (also literally). She only went deeper into the darkness, compounding her hatred and her obsession with revenge and her idea of justice for what has been done to her.
@@Avohaj "No she didn't get the chance because of shitty Storytelling." Who said something different? No one. wow is irredeemable for eternity. Set in stone.
I used to really like Sylvanas as a character. She was complicated; she had powerful motivations (preservation and personal trauma) to do some things that aren't easy to decide to do. She was meant to be the leader and protector of the Forsaken. That was all thrown out with BFA, and so we're left with all of the bad. Which is when I not only gave up with my enjoyment of Sylvanas, but also gave up WoW as a whole.
I never really liked her going bad. She should’ve stayed good and have someone else within the Horde turn bad instead. Gallywix was there, not as the main villain but a secondary villain ruining the Horde.
Danuser is the guy in Sylvanas' head making her say that, he should stop dominating - I mean - communicating(ask the Primus)through her. Leave Sylvanas alone.
I want Chromie to show up and say "everything is completely wrong, none of this was supposed to happen" and we complete a scenario and BAM, we're back at the end of Legion, the last 4 years of WoW unwritten from history.
@@Doomroar hardly seems fair how Garrosh's spirit was stronger than Arthas's. Arthas should have been similarly defiant to the unfair laws of reality that doomed him to the Lich King in the first place
That's what I said too. The Cinematic is awesome until Sylvanas opens her mouth. She had no right to be the one to send Arthas off, both Jaina and Uther has a bigger connection to him, but hey, the narrative designer is a Sylvanas simp and self-insert, so what's to expect.
@@JockenN I just think it's really great that Blizzard has used their amazing story to bring the entire WoW community together so we could all say "This would have been so much better if...". WC3:Reforged may have a score of 0.6, but that didn't stop Blizzard for continuing to strive for a perfect zero out of ten, and it's so heartening to see their lore team step up to the plate. All across Reddit, RUclips and Twitch, thousands upon thousands of people are creating alternative WoW stories, and it's really a testament to WoW's writers that we're all finding it so easy to come up with something better. It's moments like that which really define the WoW experience.
There was ONE pretty glaring issue with this cinematic. This is basically all we get of Varian and Saurfang... In this ENTIRE Afterlife-themed expansion. The same applies to a LOT of major characters who have died in WoW, and instead... We were supposed to care about all of those weird new Afterlife factions and their leaders and characters? It just made no sense to me why they wouldn't let us interact with Cairne, Grom, King Terenas or Medivh and instead focus on this garbage "Original Character, Do Not Steal" crap.
Lok'tar o'gar. For the horde. For the freedom denied us by the alliance. For the enslaved and the broken. For those damned by association and those thrown from their home. Victory or death, the only options we are given.
@@coryen3 I can't believe I even still care enough to have this argument, but seriously- an army of demon-powered dimensional invaders come flooding through a portal and start killing everyone and destroying everything. An entire kingdom is completely destroyed and its ruler assassinated. Through great effort and sacrifice, you cut off their demonic power and seal the portal allowing them to flood into your world, at which point they are forced to surrender. What, exactly, are you supposed to do with them? I see three options- 1. kill them all. 2. let them go to do whatever they want. 3. place them in internment camps. Option 3 is the only one that doesn't seem completely insane to me. The horde were absolutely the aggressors, from day one. The alliance didn't always make the most humane decisions in how to respond to unprovoked aggression, but it was almost never them that started shit.
@@CampaignerSC except if you are killed. We come back because of game mechanics, but it is established in the lore that being killed in the shadowlands turns you into pure anima and you cease to exist.
@@Caedus696 Spaceship driving Demons make sense if you set up the lore as it should. Dragonball Lore doesn't. Legion was bad too lore wise. It was mostly received well systems wise because of WoD scarring the fanbase.
I actually didn't pick up on this right away, because it's been nearly 7 years since I saw that cutscene. But damn, you're right, they totally ripped it off.
@@StormsparkPegasus No, they didn't. It's really kind of ridiculous to think that two different stories can't come up with similar ideas from time to time. The execution was different, the relationships between characters is different, etc.
FUCKING EXACTLY, The Lich King is a different being. THANK YOU. I always wanted Arthas in a state similar to Medivh, where he is dealing with shit "far beyond" anything we know of and kind of vaulted in the background but we knew he was there.
"FFXIV has made me cry man -- WoW has never done that." As a WoW player of 16 years, having played FFXIV this last year; you're completely right. FFXIV has made me straight up ugly cry several times now, WoW didn't once even get me choked up in the 16 years it had me.
Ysera's death is the only moment I ever got a lump in my throat during WoW. FFXIV has had me blubbing like an infant and unable to see through the blur of tears on multiple occasions, especially in Shadowbringers and Endwalker.
@@crazeh8 Same here, and a little bit in Ardenweald when she came back but I still can't get though the 5.3 end cinematics in FFXIV without a box of tissues.
Imagine if Uther suggested he could try and put what was left of Arthas back to the cycle? If Uther showed regret and wanted to make amends for the events which sprang from him dumping Arthas's soul into the maw. But at THAT moment, the final whisps of Arthas's soul faded away. Implying Arthas CHOSE to be forgotten, to give at least a slither of agency to what was left of him and show he wanted to simply pass on. And not have Sylvanas talk shit and remind us all she has to be the main character again. Such a bad story.
4:45 EXACTLY JESSE, this is a GOAL, not the MOTIVATION, not the WHY. Blizzard is just like painting him as a force of nature at this point, naturally meant to try and do this without any kind of reason behind it, and he's just not, he's part of the cosmic pantheon, specifically the realm of Death, and decided to BREAK that realm specifically and remake it how he wants. As far as this cinematic goes, I love it up 'til Sylvanas starts talking, Varian and Saurfang showing up to help him break free of Thanos- I mean the Jailer's grasp is MMPH. Arthas' shattered soul being used to forge Kingsmourne makes sense, but I slightly hate it because it effectively kills off Arthas permanently "offscreen," and lastly how Arthas talks about him like he was a Villain and not a cog in the machine of the Jailer JUST LIKE SHE WAS is annoying to listen to, when they were both APPARENTLY driven to the same horrible actions by the same force, the only difference is Blizzards unwillingness to let Sylvanas ever be knocked down, now she gets a redemption arc.
this is an underrated comment. Sylvanas and Arthas both driven down the same path by the same force but "we should forgive Sylvanas because she's sad about it now but that Arthas guy, what a jerk, let his legacy fade and be forgotten."
Blizzard hasn't ever been great at telling the why for anything. Usually it's because the bad guy is crazy and corrupted by power and the good guy does good things because he is brave and heroic.
@@Gamespud94 Previous cinematics have literally stated Sylvanas admitting her crimes are unforgivable. Her judgment hasn't happened yet, though voice lines for it were datamined. You are reading into something that is not there.
@@Wolfstorm701 Except not, because with their retconned soul harvesting lore (Mourneblades splitting the soul in two and harvesting I guess the better half?) technically Arthas should have had two halves of his soul, split since the day he was claimed by Frostmourne, just like Sylvanas. The difference is they don't want a story for an old character despite how much Warcraft fans love him and would rather run this marathon with their Mary Sue character, so he's just consigned to this basically off-screen perma-death, where the last words spoken of him by what basically became his successor are as if he's a villain with NO outside influence, despite how uncannily similar their roles were. They showed Garrosh more respect with the post-boss half-assed ingame cutscene. TL/DR: If Sylvanas sees Arthas as a villain, she's a Villain too, not a victim of circumstance, and thus is not worth the redemption arc she's getting.
Yeah.... The thing that bothered me is from what they mentioned on how Varian died and how Saurfang was reduced to just a trinket, that shot there is impossible to happen if it's them. I'm convinced they aren't memories since this is new dialogue, which leads me to believe that there's a retcon going on and that's them (though, how are they in the new zone if they were NEVER found in Shadowlands or Saurfang was sent to the Maw) or this is the Light's vision that gave Anduin to fight back. The latter would make the most sense, but... just wish it was nice as... I don't know... FF14. It wasn't bad though. The thing that gets me is the second half. I feel like there really isn't a lot of emotion being brought in the table and the only one talking for some reason is Sylvanas. I know she's the driving force, but... that doesn't mean the other characters should be excluded. Jaina loved Arthas and was finally able to move on after ICC.... only for Shadowlands to happen. Not only that, but Uther, Arthas' mentor... is the very same person that tossed into the Maw without giving any consent for a judgement. From his own hand and with the help of another Kyrian, they erased Arthas. Uther realized what he did but.. here... it's like the weight is suddenly gone. He just feels sad that he passed, but... Uther... YOU'RE the one that tossed him into the Maw. Shouldn't there be more emotion on it knowing the fact he's responsible for this? Side note, forgotten? I think people would still remember Arthas and the people back in Azeroth because that would show what he did and what went wrong. You learn from the past, not forget. Though, this is more of a character's opinion rather than a story flaw. Just wish some would have a hint of reaction on what Sylvanas is saying rather than just... look sad. It feels... dull
Having only played until Frozen Throne, It's kinda sad to see this as the final farewell to Arthas, a character that I've known for as long as I remember (did he turn to a wisp?). I honestly expected Jaina and Uther to have more things to say, regardless of whether or not Arthas can actually hear them (it kinda looked like Sylvanas was just talking to herself similar to how Kylo was "talking" to Han during Rise of Skywalker). Being highly skeptical and keeping my expectations rock-bottom, I just hope whoever is in charge of writing in Blizzard will manage to make a satisfying ending to all of this.
The "final farewell" to Arthas was the end of Wrath. This is a callback to Arthas (not even the first one since then and despite the wording, not necessarily the last). If the last Warcraft you played was TFT, you're missing a lot of Arthas-related story including things Jaina and Uther had to say about him as they worked through their Arthas-related trauma.
It was kind of a wisp yeah. Wisps are just spirits of nature, this was Arthas soul. And since a Wisp is basically a soul, you could call this wisp like. A wisp can move, and act on its own. This was the last remnants of his soul, not even able to exist. And yet the last remnants of his soul, were still potent enough to dominate Anduin, the strongest willed character ever.
Zovaal is just a very poorly thought out villain. When you look at the announcement cinematic from BlizzCon and the fact that even that far into development they hadn't decided what he really looked like, it's a sign that they needed to just not go forward with it on the timescale they did. Many of the issues with Shadowlands could have been resolved by pushing the launch of 9.0 back by another six months.
hell, my WoL didn't even like Estinien, they just saw how low Alphinaud had gotten, and how attached to Estinien he had become. They knew Alphi needed to save someone, to not have everything fall apart. He was close to his idealism being shattered, and that moment is what brought him back from the brink. It was amazing to me for there to be a moment that was so moving even if you didn't particularly like the person you were trying to save.
1: Replete....with the pauses....in dialogue. That we..have come....to expect. 2: You cannot slap in Arthas's music and expect to get the fanclaps without quality story behind it. An appeal to emotion in place of substance. 3: That is not resolution of mythic overarch, that is resolution of Sue's personal arc. These are not synonymous. A by-the-numbers Blizzard 'memberberry facade with all the appeal of a fresh dog turd.
I agree about the player character, they do it in many other games and I would've loved to see my character in the background of many cutscenes, standing shoulder to shoulder with the lore characters. But I guess that's the difference between pre-rendered and in game cutscenes.
The problem with that is even when they do that in WoW, you're nothing. You're not friends with any of them, none of them know shit about you, or care about you. You're just a tool to weaken the bosses so some self insert can land the final blow. Other games that have you there actually let you develop a bond with the characters. To be fair, I'd be off getting some food when all this happened. I don't care about these people. I used to about Sylvanas, but she's been so ruined, it's not even worth thinking about.
Idk, what normally happens in the other MMOs is that your player character sits there like Link and doesn't say a goddamn thing, they are just kind of awkwardly standing there and maybe have a few animations. I'd prefer WoW keep the palyer character out, as most of the stuff that happens in game is re-told in novels or other lore elsewhere where champions aren't really mentioned. I'm fine letting the characters drive the story.
@@kylescott2235 I just don't think the player character like running up and grabbing someone without saying anything is very interesting. They are in the cutscenes, but have no voice acting where everyone else does, it feels wrong.
What is so weird to me is that neither Uther, who was Arthas mentor and a father figure, and Jaina, who was Arthas friend and a love interest for the longest time don't even get to say their part much less good bye, that is what hurts me the most about this cinematic.
@@DerelictSong Also while it's 100% confirmed that Arthas had no real control of his actions post Frostmourne. It all was the Jailer. Meaning Arthas' choices where questionable good (Stratholm and burning the ships/merc betrayal), everything after he was just as much a victim as the people the Lich King slew. Meanwhile, Sylvanas was not, as far as we knew, really dominated. Influenced maybe, but he didn't force domination magic on her to do what he wanted, she did it on her own. It's not really even comparable.
@@Orrissan From my understanding of the current lore, Sylvannas was never REALLY herself post Frostmourne stabbing, she had her soul ripped in two. Everything good, pure, hopeful, empathetic was ripped out and locked away. Leaving her with only the darker side of herself, her pain, anguish, hatred and trauma. So yes she may have done everything with little nudging by the Jailor, herself, you can't really say that she REALLY made those choices herself since she WASN'T herself. In the same way that Arthas wasn't himself after taking up Frostmourne and Anduin wasn't himself after the Jailor mindjacking him. None of them were REALLY in their right minds, the Jailor manipulated them all just in differing ways.
For me the storyline of the lich king ended when we killed Arthas at the top of icecrown citadel, everything in regards to lich king lore after that means nothing to me.
I got off the WoW train at the end of Mists...but I still end up watching these cinematics. Maybe it was because I was in from the start as a loyal human of the Alliance and defended him from Onyxian guards again and again...then got to see him grow up and evolve as a character...but for all WoWs faults I still feel an attachment to Anduin. Seeing him with Varian and Thrall...yeah they got me. Tear shed. And I even felt a little bad for Arthas...WoW to me peaked at Icecrown. Sylvanas though can still get lost in a garden shed full of rakes...terrible. Can't stand her.
Yeah that was a bugger-up on my part...meant one name typed another. Still love the "Could kill you now" line from the prison cinematic. Anyway...my bad.
With the FF14 comment, I will mention that you did have a moment similar to this in patch 3.3. It's obviously not a 1:1 comparison, but it's a remarkably similar scene.
When you watch the react videos back to front and Jesse says "I hope the next two cinematic make me excited for 10.0 and beyond." Oh past Jesse, you sweet summer child.
Shadowlands had so much potential to alter the game state in a drastic way. Instead we got knock off walmart thanos >>; hopefully next expansion will do better
So they switched the faction villain from Sylvanas to Anduin? But now both are good again? And somehow Arthas' soul was merged with anduin by, I assume, the jailer?
Every major villain in WoW can be summarized as, "Big evil guy that wants to destroy/corrupt the world because 'insert vague unrelatable reason'." Garrosh is the only one that didn't fit this description and even he wasn't that far off from it. If you ask yourself why did Kel' Thuzad want to destroy the world? Why the Lich King? Why Deathwing? The why for them is just as vague and unexplained as it is for The Jailer. Every villain in WoW is just the same character in a new form.
About Zovaal's "why" @5:00, I think there was a last minute plot change. When Shadowlands was announced look at Zovaal in that trailer. He was using a model based on his concept arc that looks like a more Titan-esque Primus and he's chained. They changed him between announcement and release from a chained up Poseidon/Aman'thul looking figure to a hairless vampire who has been free in the Maw for thousands of years actively doing stuff. I suspect Zovaal, as we know him, was created last minute with plans to fix plot problems around that "later". Between Covid slowing things down, all the drama, etc. Blizzard never got around to that "later". So, we never got/get the beyond generic motives for Zovaal.
So first, thank you for the reaction, Jesse. I've been following your stuff since I was legit 13 years old and Cataclysm came out- found you through Totalbiscuit when you guys did Beta stuff for the game and I'll never not be thankful for the years and years of joy and entertainment you've given me. So again, thank you! As to Retail WoW of Today... it's just weird. Back then myself and both my mom & sister always seemed to come back to WoW. We'd take breaks, sure- but we always came back. Now though, well... they (my mom & sis) both play Final Fantasy while I play Elder Scrolls Online. And we've never once discussed going back to WoW- heck in your recent video about Guild Wars 2 I've for the first time in like two years, contemplated going back to another MMO... and it isn't WoW. In fact it's an MMO that when it originally came out, similar to ESO funnily enough; I thought wasn't good at the time. I've since come back to both after Battle for Azeroth and I just literally have basically nothing good to say about WoW. I barely even consider the art(s) side of the game to be a part of the game since it's polish vs. random stuff stuck to the wall. I used to love WoW's lore. I don't anymore, and it's not surprising as to why. All the characters I loved didn't "evolve" or "grow" they just became different characters with the same voice actors. WoW is just retcons and systems piled onto systems... and I can't get behind that. And the fanservice thing is one of the reasons we now have Sylvanas in the spotlight. Modern Blizzard just doesn't understand their player base. WoW's not a dead game, but it's also not a game that I think will ever come back onto my radar. And I think that's for the best.
4:18 Are we really sure that the jailer says this? This sounds JUST like arthas at the wrathgate (and that suits PERFECTLY, with all the wrathgathe stuff hidden in this gem)
Man, I remember the days of wrath. Not knowing the times to come, but being so pumped for the future of the game! I remember your videos covering cata man, was unreal! Cheers Jesse!
It feels weird that they are talking to anima, an energy source that is it. In Silvanus's own words said effectively there is nothing there. So there are saying good bye to nothing but a ball of energy.
Another thing FF14's story does differently is make the player care about and cry for it's villains. Unfortunately for Blizzard it's not possible to establish that sort of connection or much of anything at all in a 3 minute cutscene so they're still playing off the same old Warcraft 3 story beats after all these years from when they were actually allowed to have longer ones.
In response to Jesse's question on why the Jailer/Zovaal is doing his unmaking plan, here is what I recall. During the 9.1 Korthia campaign, we learn that the Jailer was the original Arbiter. Hence the hole in his chest and the orb in the Arbiter in Oribos. The Winter Queen and Kyrestia reveal that Zovaal saw the covenant sigils as keys to forbidden knowledge and tried to take them. It is this act that forces the Winter Queen, Archon, Primus and Denathrius to imprison him in the Maw as the Jailer. This is said during The First Move quest, The Battle of Ardenweald chapter. I recall during one of the Jailer cinematics that he says that he was once betrayed. But beyond that, nothing more was given. I doubt we will get much more from the two remaining cinematics coming (one at the end of the Raid and second when final chapter of 9.2 campaign story which was pulled from the patch before it went live. It was called Epilogue: Judgment. It may not come until 9.2.5 comes but that's speculation.)
I saw this cinematic and was... really upset, actually. I used to be a huge lore nut for WoW, and _Wrath_ was both when I started raiding in earnest and my favorite expansion. In comes _Shadowlands_ billing itself as the spiritual sequel to _Wrath_ -- it opens exactly where _Wrath_ concludes, at the top of Icecrown with the fates of Bolvar and the Helm of Domination. But everything about _Shadowlands_ ends up feeling so cheap, not only trying to piggyback off the aesthetic of _Wrath_ (which to me just cheapens _Wrath_ by making every enemy look like something from Icecrown, with Anduin and the Jailor even getting to wear Generic Death Knight Tierset) but tone-deafedly using buzzwords, like opening on this huge mystery of "What happened to Arthas' soul?" And the answer we get for that mystery? He got burned as fuel offscreen and forged into a sword. We never even got to _see_ him, in an expansion that's basically dedicated _to_ him. Not to mention that this entire scene with Anduin is a huge slap in the face to Arthas, basically saying "well if he was stronger, he could have broken free of Frostmourne's influence." And yes, I had these thoughts before I saw the side-by-side with Estinidhogg from FF14, so even the cameos of Varian and Saurfang ring hollow. As for Sylvanas, her whole arc is so sloppy. I'm all for her being morally grey, pragmatic, or even outright villainous -- that's her character since _Frozen Throne,_ even Vanilla had her cooking plague behind everyone's backs and made it clear she was in the Horde for the Forsaken's convenience. Since the only sympathetic thing about her was vengeance against Arthas, it made sense that she was at a big "and then what" after his death. In the hands of a competent writer, starting a descent into villainy herself before stopping short and finding a new purpose for being would be a natural conclusion. I'm _not_ okay with the fact that they had her follow Garrosh's arc beat-for-beat since _Legion,_ but then because they promised that they _wouldn't_ repeat Garrosh, they had her pull back at the last second and start a redemption he didn't get. An arc that was based on her taking massively out-of-character actions, like learning nothing from the plague being used against her or willfully submitting to a guy worse than Arthas. And that the sole reason for her redemption arc is not fueled by genuine remorse, but because _magic_ ("well, she didn't have half her soul that whole time" -- oh, cool, so not only did you make that up for this expansion WHICH I WILL GET TO but now you're retconning that the Sylvanas we've known for DECADES was never the "real" Sylvanas). And by this point, any character who has done what she pulled at the start of BfA doesn't _deserve_ a redemption arc. You can't dial it back after multiple counts of _actual genocide_ with an "ah, my b"; there's no coming back from that, period. The fact they even HAD one of their only Girlboss characters nose-dive off the deep-end and do things she can't take back out of spite is a case of character assassination. So now no matter what they do with her, nobody can be satisfied: if she dies or gets a punishment that writes her out, it's a disgrace to the original character, but if she remains in the story, her later actions are swept under the rug. AND THE JAILOR. THE FUCKING JAILOR. Like, the loreheads claim that the Jailor has been Sylvanas' motivation since Cataclysm with that short story about her killing herself and being torn apart in Warcraft Hell only for the Val'kyr to save her. I have no problem with this being retconned into being the Maw (it already fit the description we were given for the Shadowlands back in _Wrath,_ this is just more specific), though her secretly dealing with Zovaal this whole time is a stretch since she only spoke to the Val'kyr at the time. My issue is that they had all this time to set up the Jailor as an actual cosmic force like the Burning Legion and the Old Gods, but everything we know about this guy is coming out in the same expansion to formally introduce him. And not only is he getting a final battle next week (good riddance), but we still know nothing about him other than "I'm an evil overlord worse than Ner'zhul, Sargeras or the Old Gods."
As a long time FF14 player, i know exactly which scenes you were referring to when talking about the player character being in the position of getting help from past npcs, and yeah those scenes have made me cry a few times because of the power of the player character in the scene and not just npcs.
Gotta love seeing a 24min long video for a short cinematic.. You just know its gonna be good I find it really sad tho that they just never bring up Lo'gosh and varian more. Could've been some cool scenes throughout shadowlands with a wolf spirit randomly coming in, helping, and disappearing. Imagine at the end of 9.1 instead of Sylvanas being a dumbass,, a freaking giant white wolf just comes in and bites the jailer so he retreats. Sadly 90% of the interesting lore in wow is locked to old stories and books.
I feel like the writers completely threw Arthas under the bus and murdered Jaina and Uther's characters in this cinematic. By all accounts, Arthas got corrupted by the Jailer just like Sylvanas did. If Sylvanas's actions are now redeemed because of the Jailer being in control at the time, then, by the same token, Arthas should be redeemed as well. By all means, Sylvanas should recognize the torment that Arthas has gone through. She should recognize that Arthas was just another victim of the Jailer, just like herself. Yet she doesn't. She instead talks shit about him as if he was responsible for his actions. She's a hypocrite. And Jaina and Uther, who, beyond having had close personal relationships with Arthas, should also be smart enough to recognize that Sylvanas is being a dumbass, just sit in silence as their former friend and student - a victim of the Jailer - is being shit talked as the final fragment of his spirit dissipates. It's respectless. It is out of character. It makes my skin crawl, and it honestly feels like the writers just wanted to put an end to this story as fast as possible with as little effort as possible, hopefully resetting to a point where the next expansion can start a new arc. I'm tired of these character murders. Sylvanas should know to her very core what Arthas must've gone through, and Uther and Jaina would've been both relieved and miserable knowing that Arthas didn't commit evil out of his own volition, but because he was manipulated. They would've seen a dear, tormented friend forced to commit countless atrocities against his own will for so long, finally given rest. And they let Sylvanas speak ill of him in that moment. Honestly, the only thing that could possibly save WoW's story at this point is WoW 2.0 with a complete lore reset. I loved the story of Warcraft 3. Seeing my favorite characters acting in ways that are completely unrecognizable is terribly upsetting.
She isn't a hypocrite because she says she is taking responsibility for her actions, and thus would believe Arthas was responsibility for his own as well. You are right though, because it isn't clear that Arthas had any real knowledge about the jailor at all. Even though it comes across that way, I'm not sure they really intended for Sylvanas' words to be "talking shit" about Arthas.
@@toychristopher arthas is the only one who got any consequences tho, sylvanas didnt get jackshit in punishments. she just gets to go "woe is me, i have to live with my misdeeds!" "but fuck you arthas, off to the void with you now, everyone shall forget you!"
There are a lot of technical reasons why player characters aren't in these cutscenes. Because these are prerendered and not real time like in FFXIV. It allows them to get camera angles and effects not possible in FFXIV but at the cost of not having players present.
i feel it's worth pointing to FF14 and how this scene compares to the "save Estinien from Nidhogg" scene. Like maybe they didn't mean for it to be so close but MANNNNNN this is basically a reskin of that scene in a lot of ways. Also for anyone who plays FF14, how would you feel if it turns out the Jailer just pulls a Meteion? Like the whole reason he's doing all this was some twisted "i just wanted to help" BS.... God i don't even play WoW and i feel like i have such a more interesting story arc (or at least end) for this expansion. Like make the players really feel something for the villain, drop some legit story crumbs for future use. And i could do it with like an hour or less of in game story beats and some limited cut scenes....
The Jailer's motivations would have made sense if the told us about him being the original arbiter earlier. Like, him wanting to take back the afterlife after seemingly bring betrayed is a good enough motivation but for some reason he also had to have the motivation of changing all of reality too.
I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but did anyone notice Saurfang's "Let it be finished" was actually his son's last words at the wrathgate? I thought that was a neat callback.
Wasn't Saurfang's soul turned into a trinket and Varian's soul consumed by fel fire? Them showing up to Deus ex Machina and save Anduin (ala Heavensward 3.3) is such a cheap trick of fanservice, it doesn't even hold up narratively considering their presence during the expansion has been nonexistent up to this point. Blizzard never loaded Chekov's Gun for this reveal to pay off. It's all rule of cool with WoW cinematics, but given context, they just fall apart as usual.
It’s so crazy to me that exactly what Jesse was describing what he wanted to see at the end “ the Arthas” arc ending feeling was exactly how it felt for me ? But I stopped playing WoW after mists….no WoD or after. So this hit me so hard in the old school feels from vanilla until mists..obs esp from wrath. I think I’m still stuck in that timeline where this just seemed amazing and not a letdown.
the moment when varian and saurfang help anduin break the domination spell is cool and all but its weird bc they had a constellar try to break the spell and a bunch of other ppl who are way stronger and smarter, its weird when anduin just remembers words from varian and saurfang and is able to just break it out of no where after they made domination magic seem so unbreakable
That cinematic wouldn't have been unforgivable shit if Jaina or Uther or even Anduin had that last word, not fucking Sylvanas again, all over place, always as a trophy of Steve Danuser who is going to fade away in shame worse than poor Arthas. There is a reason if people are still leaving World Of Warcraft and part of it is because of the lack of respect for Warcraft's story, but no matter how much those current writing idiots will try, they are not better than previous colleagues and all they know is Hatred. Why? Ask The Gods.
wow Sylvanaas' words to Arthas, that was hurtful, you b- do you still not understand what was done to him, literally none of his actions were his own will except the act of keeping Jaina's locket(for those who think guys have no feelings)
When Anduin pulls apart the sword it should have pulled Arthas and Ner'zhul's souls apart and freed Arthas Menethil. Rather than tut tutting him on his way to a fate worse than death, they could have offered him a chance at, if not salvation, then respite here and given him a moment, freed from being the Lich King, to reflect. If anything, all this does is once again undermine his death both in WC3 and at the end of Icecrown. "At long last no king rules forever come and rest" becomes what? "Sorry son, you were trapped in a sword for a long time and now you're a mote of dust that will disappear for good."
@@Wolfstorm701 presumably, Arthas' soul is still "the lich king" at this point. Otherwise feels weird to spit on him so hard at the end. Feels like he already paid for all that in wrath.
@@ZombieApocalypse09 Bolvar succeeded him and now there is no Lich King. Arthas wasn't spat on, his soul was being used as a battery and now it's all used up and pathetic. There's nothing left of him to cast judgment on. Sylvanas is able to move on from him, ready to face her own judgment.
I honestly feel very different about our characters being in these big moments, I personally don't care about how my character fits into the lore, I want to see these characters that I've known and loved for years do the awesome shit and it's probably because it's an mmo, you're not the only "champion of Azeroth", there are millions, so I just don't care, but that's just how I feel, anyway, great video! :)
@@HandsomeBob1 That just proves Jesse's point. In a game like FF14 you care deeply about your character and you probably wouldn't want them to be Fistfok. :p In WoW, because the character is literally just a way for you to experience the story, there's no real reason to care.
So, remember in Cata when everyone was complaining about the main character of the xpac was Thrall not the players? I feel like instead of listening and not doing that, they just double downed on Anduin and people aren't nearly as pissed about it because they like him more than Thrall.
Hey Jesse! Did you ever get an answer about what that giant snake like creature is? It’s been so many years but the random memory hit while watching this.
If you mean the tail in the gundrak dungeon, they had answered that in a blizzcon Q&A panel, saying that probably it was planned to be something that was never realized and then just settled on "rule of cool"
@@dafire9634 yea I remember they gave him that answer after being caught off guard but I was asking for any update because really nobody actually knew for sure.
The point of the player character not being part of these prerendered cinematics is interesting since the only time they did something to include the player character was the demon hunter starting experience where it was filmed to be in first person. Compared to how many of these level of quality cinematics, it's kinda sad that they haven't found a work around to elude to the idea that the player character is there at these big moments and has an impact on the history of the story.
![NLE Choppa - Or What ft. 41 (Orchestra Mix) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/biOFASEgSOM/mqdefault.jpg)
Can't wait for next week or beyond when we see Tyrande gaslit even further into letting go of her home and people being burnt alive.
I'll never not hate this story, Teldrassil is going to be swept under the rug I can feel it
it wouldnt be hard all that remains is ashes :)
It's okay, nobody cares about racist purple elves anyway.
It’s a big tell of shit writers. Which WoW has plenty of:)
@@williamgadway9521 Underrated comment xD
I mean should be easy since it's ashes now
"Imagine if they earned this."
hahaha ....... xD good joke
As someone that was very big on Warcraft 3, i feel like Jaina (loved Arthas more than anyone else even after the whole stratholm issue) and Uther (who saw Arthas like a son) should have at the very least said good bye to the last remenants of Arthas. Even if they already mourned and came to terms with what happened, they shouldnt have just stood there like statues and at the very least said something.
For better or worse, both of them already "worked through" Arthas before. Jaina basically all the way since the end of Wrath up to BfA and Uther (obviously) mostly in SL. They really didn't have anything to say to him anymore. Sylvanas on the other hand was just given the chance to start "working through" Arthas and this cinematic is about her doing that just as much as it is about Anduin.
@@Avohaj >Sylvanas on the other hand was just given the chance to start "working through" Arthas
Wtf do you mean. She was given the chance when she broke out of the Lich King's mindcontrol.She was there in ICC when we killed Arthas. She was given chance after chance to work on whatever issue she has. The reason why we get to see her direct scorn at an unfortunate character (much unfortunate than her, tbh) is because Danuser is a weirdo who thinkseveryone should worship his bodypillow waifu.
@@orkunakman1541 No she was not given the chance to work on anything like that after ICC because she was not written that way. You realize this is not a real person but a written character? She doesn't _actually_ have agency. What she got was the chance to go down the deep end (also literally). She only went deeper into the darkness, compounding her hatred and her obsession with revenge and her idea of justice for what has been done to her.
@@Avohaj "No she didn't get the chance because of shitty Storytelling."
Who said something different? No one.
wow is irredeemable for eternity. Set in stone.
Why on earth should Jaina care about her ex that she dumped 20 years ago? She's moved on, dated literal dragons since him.
I used to really like Sylvanas as a character. She was complicated; she had powerful motivations (preservation and personal trauma) to do some things that aren't easy to decide to do. She was meant to be the leader and protector of the Forsaken. That was all thrown out with BFA, and so we're left with all of the bad. Which is when I not only gave up with my enjoyment of Sylvanas, but also gave up WoW as a whole.
Yea i lost my shit when i heard they where redeeming her. Story for WoW just needs to end imo.
@@TheMadSkeletons Yup. No need for redemption if they had just kept to her original characterization.
I never really liked her going bad. She should’ve stayed good and have someone else within the Horde turn bad instead. Gallywix was there, not as the main villain but a secondary villain ruining the Horde.
@@belalhaifa821 she was never really good at best she was an anti hero like the punisher
as a main forsaken im never returning to wow and all the better for it
I don't want Arthas to be forgotten, I want battle for azeroth to be forgotten.
It will be. And Shadowlands as well.
Word!
Danuser is the guy in Sylvanas' head making her say that, he should stop dominating - I mean - communicating(ask the Primus)through her. Leave Sylvanas alone.
I want Chromie to show up and say "everything is completely wrong, none of this was supposed to happen" and we complete a scenario and BAM, we're back at the end of Legion, the last 4 years of WoW unwritten from history.
I want WoW to be forgotten. Wipe the slate clean and give me Warcraft IV. Let it have been another one of Thrall's bad dreams.
Arthas and Garrosh are the luckiest characters: they get to leave WoW behind and never look back.
Except Garrosh went out with grace while Arthas have been destroyed into oblivion
At least Garrosh got to into oblivion with a final fuck you, Arthas on the other hand... oh man poor Arthas.
@@Doomroar man he should have draged slyvanas with him
@@Doomroar hardly seems fair how Garrosh's spirit was stronger than Arthas's. Arthas should have been similarly defiant to the unfair laws of reality that doomed him to the Lich King in the first place
I'm with him on this, with the lack of investment in current WoW. I haven't seen the cutscene until now, I'm only here because of Jesse.
The Anduin part of the cutscene was great and wholesome.
So naturally, Blizz had to ruin it with what came right after.
That's what I said too. The Cinematic is awesome until Sylvanas opens her mouth. She had no right to be the one to send Arthas off, both Jaina and Uther has a bigger connection to him, but hey, the narrative designer is a Sylvanas simp and self-insert, so what's to expect.
@@JockenN I just think it's really great that Blizzard has used their amazing story to bring the entire WoW community together so we could all say "This would have been so much better if...". WC3:Reforged may have a score of 0.6, but that didn't stop Blizzard for continuing to strive for a perfect zero out of ten, and it's so heartening to see their lore team step up to the plate. All across Reddit, RUclips and Twitch, thousands upon thousands of people are creating alternative WoW stories, and it's really a testament to WoW's writers that we're all finding it so easy to come up with something better.
It's moments like that which really define the WoW experience.
@@JockenN Alliance players when they see everyone complaining about characters they don't care about getting all the story: "First Time?"
@@CatalepticHunter True and Real
There was ONE pretty glaring issue with this cinematic. This is basically all we get of Varian and Saurfang... In this ENTIRE Afterlife-themed expansion. The same applies to a LOT of major characters who have died in WoW, and instead... We were supposed to care about all of those weird new Afterlife factions and their leaders and characters? It just made no sense to me why they wouldn't let us interact with Cairne, Grom, King Terenas or Medivh and instead focus on this garbage "Original Character, Do Not Steal" crap.
Thanks for giving it a watch (even if you're Alliance :P )
You mean the superior faction? ;) that actually does all the work in the lore to protect Azeroth/the universe? :D :P
Your welcome! (even if your Horde)
Lok'tar o'gar. For the horde. For the freedom denied us by the alliance. For the enslaved and the broken. For those damned by association and those thrown from their home. Victory or death, the only options we are given.
@@coryen3 I can't believe I even still care enough to have this argument, but seriously- an army of demon-powered dimensional invaders come flooding through a portal and start killing everyone and destroying everything. An entire kingdom is completely destroyed and its ruler assassinated. Through great effort and sacrifice, you cut off their demonic power and seal the portal allowing them to flood into your world, at which point they are forced to surrender. What, exactly, are you supposed to do with them?
I see three options- 1. kill them all. 2. let them go to do whatever they want. 3. place them in internment camps. Option 3 is the only one that doesn't seem completely insane to me. The horde were absolutely the aggressors, from day one. The alliance didn't always make the most humane decisions in how to respond to unprovoked aggression, but it was almost never them that started shit.
As a proud member of the Eorzean Allianxe, you’re welcome
I can't wait for the Crendor reaction to this reaction
I miss the chicken sandwich review reaction saga
Jesse is that "this is good, but I love THIS," Jeremy Clarkson meme here
Honestly, the "Why" for Zovaal doesn't really go any deeper than "Make Death supreme over all other forces, with Zovaal in charge"
Yeah... w/e that means. Nothing in the realm of "death" is dead, in fact they all seem to live forever? lmao
@@CampaignerSC except if you are killed. We come back because of game mechanics, but it is established in the lore that being killed in the shadowlands turns you into pure anima and you cease to exist.
@@Caedus696 Basically Dragonball Lore.
This is what wow has become lmao.
@@gysahlfields7506 to be fair Legion was one of the best received expacs and it gave us spaceship driving demons.
@@Caedus696 Spaceship driving Demons make sense if you set up the lore as it should.
Dragonball Lore doesn't.
Legion was bad too lore wise.
It was mostly received well systems wise because of WoD scarring the fanbase.
Ysayle: “and by love”
Haurchefant: “and by friendship”
*grabs Anduin’s sword*
I actually didn't pick up on this right away, because it's been nearly 7 years since I saw that cutscene. But damn, you're right, they totally ripped it off.
Gimli: And my axe
@@ChrisMorray lol
Uther de Borel "Quickly! Throw the swords into the abyss!"
@@StormsparkPegasus No, they didn't. It's really kind of ridiculous to think that two different stories can't come up with similar ideas from time to time. The execution was different, the relationships between characters is different, etc.
FUCKING EXACTLY, The Lich King is a different being. THANK YOU. I always wanted Arthas in a state similar to Medivh, where he is dealing with shit "far beyond" anything we know of and kind of vaulted in the background but we knew he was there.
"FFXIV has made me cry man -- WoW has never done that." As a WoW player of 16 years, having played FFXIV this last year; you're completely right. FFXIV has made me straight up ugly cry several times now, WoW didn't once even get me choked up in the 16 years it had me.
Yeah WoW made me upset when Cairne died but I cried so may times in FFXIV it's not even funny.
Ysera's death is the only moment I ever got a lump in my throat during WoW. FFXIV has had me blubbing like an infant and unable to see through the blur of tears on multiple occasions, especially in Shadowbringers and Endwalker.
@@crazeh8 Same here, and a little bit in Ardenweald when she came back but I still can't get though the 5.3 end cinematics in FFXIV without a box of tissues.
idk why but pretty much anything Anduin has done has really done me in several times
@@crazeh8 Death of Ysera and death of Ursoc. I cried at both of those. To this day I refuse to finish Val'sharah, so she doesn't have to die again.
Imagine if Uther suggested he could try and put what was left of Arthas back to the cycle? If Uther showed regret and wanted to make amends for the events which sprang from him dumping Arthas's soul into the maw. But at THAT moment, the final whisps of Arthas's soul faded away. Implying Arthas CHOSE to be forgotten, to give at least a slither of agency to what was left of him and show he wanted to simply pass on. And not have Sylvanas talk shit and remind us all she has to be the main character again. Such a bad story.
4:45 EXACTLY JESSE, this is a GOAL, not the MOTIVATION, not the WHY.
Blizzard is just like painting him as a force of nature at this point, naturally meant to try and do this without any kind of reason behind it, and he's just not, he's part of the cosmic pantheon, specifically the realm of Death, and decided to BREAK that realm specifically and remake it how he wants.
As far as this cinematic goes, I love it up 'til Sylvanas starts talking, Varian and Saurfang showing up to help him break free of Thanos- I mean the Jailer's grasp is MMPH. Arthas' shattered soul being used to forge Kingsmourne makes sense, but I slightly hate it because it effectively kills off Arthas permanently "offscreen," and lastly how Arthas talks about him like he was a Villain and not a cog in the machine of the Jailer JUST LIKE SHE WAS is annoying to listen to, when they were both APPARENTLY driven to the same horrible actions by the same force, the only difference is Blizzards unwillingness to let Sylvanas ever be knocked down, now she gets a redemption arc.
this is an underrated comment. Sylvanas and Arthas both driven down the same path by the same force but "we should forgive Sylvanas because she's sad about it now but that Arthas guy, what a jerk, let his legacy fade and be forgotten."
Blizzard hasn't ever been great at telling the why for anything. Usually it's because the bad guy is crazy and corrupted by power and the good guy does good things because he is brave and heroic.
@@Gamespud94 Previous cinematics have literally stated Sylvanas admitting her crimes are unforgivable. Her judgment hasn't happened yet, though voice lines for it were datamined. You are reading into something that is not there.
@@Wolfstorm701 Except not, because with their retconned soul harvesting lore (Mourneblades splitting the soul in two and harvesting I guess the better half?) technically Arthas should have had two halves of his soul, split since the day he was claimed by Frostmourne, just like Sylvanas.
The difference is they don't want a story for an old character despite how much Warcraft fans love him and would rather run this marathon with their Mary Sue character, so he's just consigned to this basically off-screen perma-death, where the last words spoken of him by what basically became his successor are as if he's a villain with NO outside influence, despite how uncannily similar their roles were. They showed Garrosh more respect with the post-boss half-assed ingame cutscene.
TL/DR: If Sylvanas sees Arthas as a villain, she's a Villain too, not a victim of circumstance, and thus is not worth the redemption arc she's getting.
@@PQUNDCAKE Bruh. She is not getting a redemption, how is that lost on you?
Blizzard need to hire Jesse as a story consultant
Yeah.... The thing that bothered me is from what they mentioned on how Varian died and how Saurfang was reduced to just a trinket, that shot there is impossible to happen if it's them. I'm convinced they aren't memories since this is new dialogue, which leads me to believe that there's a retcon going on and that's them (though, how are they in the new zone if they were NEVER found in Shadowlands or Saurfang was sent to the Maw) or this is the Light's vision that gave Anduin to fight back. The latter would make the most sense, but... just wish it was nice as... I don't know... FF14. It wasn't bad though.
The thing that gets me is the second half. I feel like there really isn't a lot of emotion being brought in the table and the only one talking for some reason is Sylvanas. I know she's the driving force, but... that doesn't mean the other characters should be excluded. Jaina loved Arthas and was finally able to move on after ICC.... only for Shadowlands to happen. Not only that, but Uther, Arthas' mentor... is the very same person that tossed into the Maw without giving any consent for a judgement. From his own hand and with the help of another Kyrian, they erased Arthas. Uther realized what he did but.. here... it's like the weight is suddenly gone. He just feels sad that he passed, but... Uther... YOU'RE the one that tossed him into the Maw. Shouldn't there be more emotion on it knowing the fact he's responsible for this? Side note, forgotten? I think people would still remember Arthas and the people back in Azeroth because that would show what he did and what went wrong. You learn from the past, not forget. Though, this is more of a character's opinion rather than a story flaw. Just wish some would have a hint of reaction on what Sylvanas is saying rather than just... look sad. It feels... dull
"My Son..." is such a great callback to Arthas's cinematics
Having only played until Frozen Throne, It's kinda sad to see this as the final farewell to Arthas, a character that I've known for as long as I remember (did he turn to a wisp?).
I honestly expected Jaina and Uther to have more things to say, regardless of whether or not Arthas can actually hear them (it kinda looked like Sylvanas was just talking to herself similar to how Kylo was "talking" to Han during Rise of Skywalker).
Being highly skeptical and keeping my expectations rock-bottom, I just hope whoever is in charge of writing in Blizzard will manage to make a satisfying ending to all of this.
Arthas got done dirty by the writers.
The "final farewell" to Arthas was the end of Wrath. This is a callback to Arthas (not even the first one since then and despite the wording, not necessarily the last). If the last Warcraft you played was TFT, you're missing a lot of Arthas-related story including things Jaina and Uther had to say about him as they worked through their Arthas-related trauma.
Arthas had his final farewell at the end of WOTLK.
It was kind of a wisp yeah. Wisps are just spirits of nature, this was Arthas soul. And since a Wisp is basically a soul, you could call this wisp like. A wisp can move, and act on its own. This was the last remnants of his soul, not even able to exist.
And yet the last remnants of his soul, were still potent enough to dominate Anduin, the strongest willed character ever.
Zovaal is just a very poorly thought out villain. When you look at the announcement cinematic from BlizzCon and the fact that even that far into development they hadn't decided what he really looked like, it's a sign that they needed to just not go forward with it on the timescale they did. Many of the issues with Shadowlands could have been resolved by pushing the launch of 9.0 back by another six months.
Hell, they literally used the announcement model on Primus instead.
I'm glad Anduin gets the help of both of his dads, you love to see it
That was good for the cinematic! Then it got ruined with Sylvanas and Arthas…
For once I'm glad to know the writers are playing Final Fantasy XIV and taking notes from its story specially Heavensward ;)
Yeeeaaah, im not big on the whole “wow copies 14” train, but this one was waaaaaay to close for comfort.
12:42 even you just describing this moment brought tears to my eyes, after having gone thru Ultima Thule.
Arthas wisping away like that has to be the biggest case of blue balls that WoW has ever done to us.
Uther de Borel "Quickly! Throw the swords into the abyss!"
Sylvanas talking to Arthas's souls is a huge self insert of the todays devs talking to the old devs
We had that moment. We had that moment with Estinien. With Alphinaud and we had Ysayle and Haurchefant help us. It was much more moving this this
hell, my WoL didn't even like Estinien, they just saw how low Alphinaud had gotten, and how attached to Estinien he had become. They knew Alphi needed to save someone, to not have everything fall apart. He was close to his idealism being shattered, and that moment is what brought him back from the brink. It was amazing to me for there to be a moment that was so moving even if you didn't particularly like the person you were trying to save.
1: Replete....with the pauses....in dialogue. That we..have come....to expect.
2: You cannot slap in Arthas's music and expect to get the fanclaps without quality story behind it. An appeal to emotion in place of substance.
3: That is not resolution of mythic overarch, that is resolution of Sue's personal arc. These are not synonymous.
A by-the-numbers Blizzard 'memberberry facade with all the appeal of a fresh dog turd.
"Is it... over?"
"Yes. No company rules forever my son."
I agree about the player character, they do it in many other games and I would've loved to see my character in the background of many cutscenes, standing shoulder to shoulder with the lore characters. But I guess that's the difference between pre-rendered and in game cutscenes.
The problem with that is even when they do that in WoW, you're nothing. You're not friends with any of them, none of them know shit about you, or care about you. You're just a tool to weaken the bosses so some self insert can land the final blow.
Other games that have you there actually let you develop a bond with the characters.
To be fair, I'd be off getting some food when all this happened. I don't care about these people. I used to about Sylvanas, but she's been so ruined, it's not even worth thinking about.
Idk, what normally happens in the other MMOs is that your player character sits there like Link and doesn't say a goddamn thing, they are just kind of awkwardly standing there and maybe have a few animations. I'd prefer WoW keep the palyer character out, as most of the stuff that happens in game is re-told in novels or other lore elsewhere where champions aren't really mentioned. I'm fine letting the characters drive the story.
@@Toches if your into that kind of story why even play mmos or wow in general then?
@@kylescott2235 I just don't think the player character like running up and grabbing someone without saying anything is very interesting. They are in the cutscenes, but have no voice acting where everyone else does, it feels wrong.
12:40 - reminds me of something in XIV, maybe the scene after defeating Nidhogg in the Final Steps of Faith? :)
The Jailer's motivation is so shrouded that not even the devs know.
What is so weird to me is that neither Uther, who was Arthas mentor and a father figure, and Jaina, who was Arthas friend and a love interest for the longest time don't even get to say their part much less good bye, that is what hurts me the most about this cinematic.
Sylvanas is finally kind of learning the lessons/prices of the vengeance path she's been on. It just feels hollow.
Did I learned my lesson if at the end I tell you I became you and that is your legacy therefore blaming you at the end?
@@DerelictSong Also while it's 100% confirmed that Arthas had no real control of his actions post Frostmourne. It all was the Jailer. Meaning Arthas' choices where questionable good (Stratholm and burning the ships/merc betrayal), everything after he was just as much a victim as the people the Lich King slew.
Meanwhile, Sylvanas was not, as far as we knew, really dominated. Influenced maybe, but he didn't force domination magic on her to do what he wanted, she did it on her own. It's not really even comparable.
@@Orrissan From my understanding of the current lore, Sylvannas was never REALLY herself post Frostmourne stabbing, she had her soul ripped in two. Everything good, pure, hopeful, empathetic was ripped out and locked away. Leaving her with only the darker side of herself, her pain, anguish, hatred and trauma. So yes she may have done everything with little nudging by the Jailor, herself, you can't really say that she REALLY made those choices herself since she WASN'T herself. In the same way that Arthas wasn't himself after taking up Frostmourne and Anduin wasn't himself after the Jailor mindjacking him. None of them were REALLY in their right minds, the Jailor manipulated them all just in differing ways.
Anduin: a story of two dads.
Quickly! Cast the Arthas into the abys!
For me the storyline of the lich king ended when we killed Arthas at the top of icecrown citadel, everything in regards to lich king lore after that means nothing to me.
I got off the WoW train at the end of Mists...but I still end up watching these cinematics. Maybe it was because I was in from the start as a loyal human of the Alliance and defended him from Onyxian guards again and again...then got to see him grow up and evolve as a character...but for all WoWs faults I still feel an attachment to Anduin. Seeing him with Varian and Thrall...yeah they got me. Tear shed. And I even felt a little bad for Arthas...WoW to me peaked at Icecrown. Sylvanas though can still get lost in a garden shed full of rakes...terrible. Can't stand her.
Wasn't that Saurfang?
That was Saurfang. Thrall is still alive.
Yeah that was a bugger-up on my part...meant one name typed another. Still love the "Could kill you now" line from the prison cinematic. Anyway...my bad.
Man... listening to you ranting about WoW brings me back. I need more of this sort of content.
With the FF14 comment, I will mention that you did have a moment similar to this in patch 3.3. It's obviously not a 1:1 comparison, but it's a remarkably similar scene.
That’s what he’s referring to, he’s just not giving specifics because spoilers.
This instantly reminded me of 3.3 Heavensward cutscene with Nidhogg, Ysayle and Haucherfant. lol
When you watch the react videos back to front and Jesse says "I hope the next two cinematic make me excited for 10.0 and beyond." Oh past Jesse, you sweet summer child.
9:00 how are they there? Varian got disenchanted and Saurfang soul was a trinket.
Think they're just echoes of past wielders, like when Anduin first picked up Shalamayne and saw his dad.
Either the echoes theory or just physical representations of Anduins memory like in the broken shore cinematic
I've seen this "Anduin" scene in Heavensward...
EDIT: Also is it me or does Anduin sound like Jesse when he screams?
I was thinking it sounds close to a Goku scream
Yeah except you're not the Anduin, you and Alphinaud are the dad and Saurfang.
Also HW best expansion.
I find it funny how Jesse's frown grows the longer Sylvanas talks.
Shadowlands had so much potential to alter the game state in a drastic way. Instead we got knock off walmart thanos >>; hopefully next expansion will do better
Jesse. Why on Earth are you not at 1 mil subs yet my guy. Can't think of many more people that actually deserve to go further.
thats a blizzard staple at this point, you could sum up every choice from vanilla to shadowlands in two words : "Wasted Potential"
The one thing I really liked about the cinematic is Saurfang's appearance. It shows how much of an impact Saurfang had on Anduin during BFA.
WoW has made me cry many many time, or at least put tears in my eyes. Just as this cinematic did. With Varian.
Sylvanas just had to make Arthas' final moments about herself, huh.
Defeat... Anduin? In a raid?? What the hell has happened since 9.0
The blizzard classic, he was corrupted.
So they switched the faction villain from Sylvanas to Anduin? But now both are good again? And somehow Arthas' soul was merged with anduin by, I assume, the jailer?
@@Tajih Jailer put what remained of Arthas’ soul in the sword and used dommy mommy magic on Anduin with the collar that falls off.
Every major villain in WoW can be summarized as, "Big evil guy that wants to destroy/corrupt the world because 'insert vague unrelatable reason'." Garrosh is the only one that didn't fit this description and even he wasn't that far off from it.
If you ask yourself why did Kel' Thuzad want to destroy the world? Why the Lich King? Why Deathwing? The why for them is just as vague and unexplained as it is for The Jailer.
Every villain in WoW is just the same character in a new form.
About Zovaal's "why" @5:00, I think there was a last minute plot change. When Shadowlands was announced look at Zovaal in that trailer. He was using a model based on his concept arc that looks like a more Titan-esque Primus and he's chained. They changed him between announcement and release from a chained up Poseidon/Aman'thul looking figure to a hairless vampire who has been free in the Maw for thousands of years actively doing stuff.
I suspect Zovaal, as we know him, was created last minute with plans to fix plot problems around that "later". Between Covid slowing things down, all the drama, etc. Blizzard never got around to that "later". So, we never got/get the beyond generic motives for Zovaal.
So first, thank you for the reaction, Jesse. I've been following your stuff since I was legit 13 years old and Cataclysm came out- found you through Totalbiscuit when you guys did Beta stuff for the game and I'll never not be thankful for the years and years of joy and entertainment you've given me. So again, thank you!
As to Retail WoW of Today... it's just weird. Back then myself and both my mom & sister always seemed to come back to WoW. We'd take breaks, sure- but we always came back. Now though, well... they (my mom & sis) both play Final Fantasy while I play Elder Scrolls Online. And we've never once discussed going back to WoW- heck in your recent video about Guild Wars 2 I've for the first time in like two years, contemplated going back to another MMO... and it isn't WoW. In fact it's an MMO that when it originally came out, similar to ESO funnily enough; I thought wasn't good at the time. I've since come back to both after Battle for Azeroth and I just literally have basically nothing good to say about WoW. I barely even consider the art(s) side of the game to be a part of the game since it's polish vs. random stuff stuck to the wall.
I used to love WoW's lore. I don't anymore, and it's not surprising as to why. All the characters I loved didn't "evolve" or "grow" they just became different characters with the same voice actors. WoW is just retcons and systems piled onto systems... and I can't get behind that. And the fanservice thing is one of the reasons we now have Sylvanas in the spotlight. Modern Blizzard just doesn't understand their player base.
WoW's not a dead game, but it's also not a game that I think will ever come back onto my radar. And I think that's for the best.
4:18 Are we really sure that the jailer says this? This sounds JUST like arthas at the wrathgate
(and that suits PERFECTLY, with all the wrathgathe stuff hidden in this gem)
Man, I remember the days of wrath. Not knowing the times to come, but being so pumped for the future of the game! I remember your videos covering cata man, was unreal! Cheers Jesse!
Don't worry. They'll flesh everything out in the next books. Yay!
This is why I think that Warcraft would be a great story based single player game series, RTS or anything else but an MMO
It feels weird that they are talking to anima, an energy source that is it. In Silvanus's own words said effectively there is nothing there. So there are saying good bye to nothing but a ball of energy.
Another thing FF14's story does differently is make the player care about and cry for it's villains. Unfortunately for Blizzard it's not possible to establish that sort of connection or much of anything at all in a 3 minute cutscene so they're still playing off the same old Warcraft 3 story beats after all these years from when they were actually allowed to have longer ones.
I miss Arthas. You were dead on with that insight.
Saurfang and Varian bit is straight up Anime-flashback scene and I love it.
That Saurfang line always hypes me up...."LET IT BE FINISHED!"
Same line his son said before being killed by Arthas. KEK
Thank you for the Ner'Zhul shout out, HE put in the work, Arthas was just a pawn
8:34 It's the Father-Son Kamehameha. Always will be, every time they use the trope.
Varian was the one thing I wanted to see this expansion.
In response to Jesse's question on why the Jailer/Zovaal is doing his unmaking plan, here is what I recall.
During the 9.1 Korthia campaign, we learn that the Jailer was the original Arbiter. Hence the hole in his chest and the orb in the Arbiter in Oribos. The Winter Queen and Kyrestia reveal that Zovaal saw the covenant sigils as keys to forbidden knowledge and tried to take them. It is this act that forces the Winter Queen, Archon, Primus and Denathrius to imprison him in the Maw as the Jailer. This is said during The First Move quest, The Battle of Ardenweald chapter.
I recall during one of the Jailer cinematics that he says that he was once betrayed. But beyond that, nothing more was given. I doubt we will get much more from the two remaining cinematics coming (one at the end of the Raid and second when final chapter of 9.2 campaign story which was pulled from the patch before it went live. It was called Epilogue: Judgment. It may not come until 9.2.5 comes but that's speculation.)
I saw this cinematic and was... really upset, actually. I used to be a huge lore nut for WoW, and _Wrath_ was both when I started raiding in earnest and my favorite expansion.
In comes _Shadowlands_ billing itself as the spiritual sequel to _Wrath_ -- it opens exactly where _Wrath_ concludes, at the top of Icecrown with the fates of Bolvar and the Helm of Domination.
But everything about _Shadowlands_ ends up feeling so cheap, not only trying to piggyback off the aesthetic of _Wrath_ (which to me just cheapens _Wrath_ by making every enemy look like something from Icecrown, with Anduin and the Jailor even getting to wear Generic Death Knight Tierset) but tone-deafedly using buzzwords, like opening on this huge mystery of "What happened to Arthas' soul?"
And the answer we get for that mystery? He got burned as fuel offscreen and forged into a sword. We never even got to _see_ him, in an expansion that's basically dedicated _to_ him.
Not to mention that this entire scene with Anduin is a huge slap in the face to Arthas, basically saying "well if he was stronger, he could have broken free of Frostmourne's influence."
And yes, I had these thoughts before I saw the side-by-side with Estinidhogg from FF14, so even the cameos of Varian and Saurfang ring hollow.
As for Sylvanas, her whole arc is so sloppy. I'm all for her being morally grey, pragmatic, or even outright villainous -- that's her character since _Frozen Throne,_ even Vanilla had her cooking plague behind everyone's backs and made it clear she was in the Horde for the Forsaken's convenience. Since the only sympathetic thing about her was vengeance against Arthas, it made sense that she was at a big "and then what" after his death.
In the hands of a competent writer, starting a descent into villainy herself before stopping short and finding a new purpose for being would be a natural conclusion.
I'm _not_ okay with the fact that they had her follow Garrosh's arc beat-for-beat since _Legion,_ but then because they promised that they _wouldn't_ repeat Garrosh, they had her pull back at the last second and start a redemption he didn't get. An arc that was based on her taking massively out-of-character actions, like learning nothing from the plague being used against her or willfully submitting to a guy worse than Arthas. And that the sole reason for her redemption arc is not fueled by genuine remorse, but because _magic_ ("well, she didn't have half her soul that whole time" -- oh, cool, so not only did you make that up for this expansion WHICH I WILL GET TO but now you're retconning that the Sylvanas we've known for DECADES was never the "real" Sylvanas).
And by this point, any character who has done what she pulled at the start of BfA doesn't _deserve_ a redemption arc. You can't dial it back after multiple counts of _actual genocide_ with an "ah, my b"; there's no coming back from that, period. The fact they even HAD one of their only Girlboss characters nose-dive off the deep-end and do things she can't take back out of spite is a case of character assassination. So now no matter what they do with her, nobody can be satisfied: if she dies or gets a punishment that writes her out, it's a disgrace to the original character, but if she remains in the story, her later actions are swept under the rug.
AND THE JAILOR. THE FUCKING JAILOR.
Like, the loreheads claim that the Jailor has been Sylvanas' motivation since Cataclysm with that short story about her killing herself and being torn apart in Warcraft Hell only for the Val'kyr to save her. I have no problem with this being retconned into being the Maw (it already fit the description we were given for the Shadowlands back in _Wrath,_ this is just more specific), though her secretly dealing with Zovaal this whole time is a stretch since she only spoke to the Val'kyr at the time.
My issue is that they had all this time to set up the Jailor as an actual cosmic force like the Burning Legion and the Old Gods, but everything we know about this guy is coming out in the same expansion to formally introduce him. And not only is he getting a final battle next week (good riddance), but we still know nothing about him other than "I'm an evil overlord worse than Ner'zhul, Sargeras or the Old Gods."
funny thing about this moment is its directly ripped from FFXIV too. remember ripping the eyes from Estinien's armor?
As a long time FF14 player, i know exactly which scenes you were referring to when talking about the player character being in the position of getting help from past npcs, and yeah those scenes have made me cry a few times because of the power of the player character in the scene and not just npcs.
Gotta love seeing a 24min long video for a short cinematic.. You just know its gonna be good
I find it really sad tho that they just never bring up Lo'gosh and varian more. Could've been some cool scenes throughout shadowlands with a wolf spirit randomly coming in, helping, and disappearing. Imagine at the end of 9.1 instead of Sylvanas being a dumbass,, a freaking giant white wolf just comes in and bites the jailer so he retreats. Sadly 90% of the interesting lore in wow is locked to old stories and books.
Waiting for the day that Blizz pulls a Disney and says anything before Legion never happened, or happened *this way only*.
I feel like the writers completely threw Arthas under the bus and murdered Jaina and Uther's characters in this cinematic.
By all accounts, Arthas got corrupted by the Jailer just like Sylvanas did. If Sylvanas's actions are now redeemed because of the Jailer being in control at the time, then, by the same token, Arthas should be redeemed as well. By all means, Sylvanas should recognize the torment that Arthas has gone through. She should recognize that Arthas was just another victim of the Jailer, just like herself. Yet she doesn't. She instead talks shit about him as if he was responsible for his actions. She's a hypocrite. And Jaina and Uther, who, beyond having had close personal relationships with Arthas, should also be smart enough to recognize that Sylvanas is being a dumbass, just sit in silence as their former friend and student - a victim of the Jailer - is being shit talked as the final fragment of his spirit dissipates.
It's respectless. It is out of character. It makes my skin crawl, and it honestly feels like the writers just wanted to put an end to this story as fast as possible with as little effort as possible, hopefully resetting to a point where the next expansion can start a new arc.
I'm tired of these character murders. Sylvanas should know to her very core what Arthas must've gone through, and Uther and Jaina would've been both relieved and miserable knowing that Arthas didn't commit evil out of his own volition, but because he was manipulated. They would've seen a dear, tormented friend forced to commit countless atrocities against his own will for so long, finally given rest. And they let Sylvanas speak ill of him in that moment.
Honestly, the only thing that could possibly save WoW's story at this point is WoW 2.0 with a complete lore reset.
I loved the story of Warcraft 3. Seeing my favorite characters acting in ways that are completely unrecognizable is terribly upsetting.
She isn't a hypocrite because she says she is taking responsibility for her actions, and thus would believe Arthas was responsibility for his own as well. You are right though, because it isn't clear that Arthas had any real knowledge about the jailor at all. Even though it comes across that way, I'm not sure they really intended for Sylvanas' words to be "talking shit" about Arthas.
@@toychristopher arthas is the only one who got any consequences tho, sylvanas didnt get jackshit in punishments. she just gets to go "woe is me, i have to live with my misdeeds!" "but fuck you arthas, off to the void with you now, everyone shall forget you!"
There are a lot of technical reasons why player characters aren't in these cutscenes. Because these are prerendered and not real time like in FFXIV. It allows them to get camera angles and effects not possible in FFXIV but at the cost of not having players present.
Uh. No.
@@edtazrael I mean, yes. This scene is pre-rendered, it's not in real time.
Arthas is proud of you Anduin....Like Father Like Son....Even if Varian is his Father....
I just want to point out that Sylvanas went through the same arc twice.
i feel it's worth pointing to FF14 and how this scene compares to the "save Estinien from Nidhogg" scene. Like maybe they didn't mean for it to be so close but MANNNNNN this is basically a reskin of that scene in a lot of ways.
Also for anyone who plays FF14, how would you feel if it turns out the Jailer just pulls a Meteion? Like the whole reason he's doing all this was some twisted "i just wanted to help" BS.... God i don't even play WoW and i feel like i have such a more interesting story arc (or at least end) for this expansion. Like make the players really feel something for the villain, drop some legit story crumbs for future use. And i could do it with like an hour or less of in game story beats and some limited cut scenes....
The Jailer's motivations would have made sense if the told us about him being the original arbiter earlier. Like, him wanting to take back the afterlife after seemingly bring betrayed is a good enough motivation but for some reason he also had to have the motivation of changing all of reality too.
I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but did anyone notice Saurfang's "Let it be finished" was actually his son's last words at the wrathgate? I thought that was a neat callback.
Wasn't Saurfang's soul turned into a trinket and Varian's soul consumed by fel fire? Them showing up to Deus ex Machina and save Anduin (ala Heavensward 3.3) is such a cheap trick of fanservice, it doesn't even hold up narratively considering their presence during the expansion has been nonexistent up to this point. Blizzard never loaded Chekov's Gun for this reveal to pay off. It's all rule of cool with WoW cinematics, but given context, they just fall apart as usual.
high moments in FF14 where the player is off on their own and about to go into a story related raid, are usually my favorites.
It’s so crazy to me that exactly what Jesse was describing what he wanted to see at the end “ the Arthas” arc ending feeling was exactly how it felt for me ? But I stopped playing WoW after mists….no WoD or after. So this hit me so hard in the old school feels from vanilla until mists..obs esp from wrath. I think I’m still stuck in that timeline where this just seemed amazing and not a letdown.
Why the fk does Uther look like he came straight out of family guy. 😂
Jesse I love these kinds of videos, also loved your Taliesen react video. Keep them coming
15:40 Preach it Jesse! Completely agree about Arthas - that was the whole point of TFT's ending to my mind.
I still don't understand how Anduin is not a Death Knight now
maybe a video with all your WoW ramblings and theories and all the stuff you would have liked to see in the story
the moment when varian and saurfang help anduin break the domination spell is cool and all but its weird bc they had a constellar try to break the spell and a bunch of other ppl who are way stronger and smarter, its weird when anduin just remembers words from varian and saurfang and is able to just break it out of no where after they made domination magic seem so unbreakable
i would love to have alternate reality Jesse being wow leading story dev and youtuber ofc :)
That cinematic wouldn't have been unforgivable shit if Jaina or Uther or even Anduin had that last word, not fucking Sylvanas again, all over place, always as a trophy of Steve Danuser who is going to fade away in shame worse than poor Arthas. There is a reason if people are still leaving World Of Warcraft and part of it is because of the lack of respect for Warcraft's story, but no matter how much those current writing idiots will try, they are not better than previous colleagues and all they know is Hatred. Why? Ask The Gods.
wow Sylvanaas' words to Arthas, that was hurtful, you b- do you still not understand what was done to him, literally none of his actions were his own will except the act of keeping Jaina's locket(for those who think guys have no feelings)
When Anduin pulls apart the sword it should have pulled Arthas and Ner'zhul's souls apart and freed Arthas Menethil. Rather than tut tutting him on his way to a fate worse than death, they could have offered him a chance at, if not salvation, then respite here and given him a moment, freed from being the Lich King, to reflect.
If anything, all this does is once again undermine his death both in WC3 and at the end of Icecrown. "At long last no king rules forever come and rest" becomes what? "Sorry son, you were trapped in a sword for a long time and now you're a mote of dust that will disappear for good."
Why would that happen? This is Shalamayne my guy, only Arthas's weakened soul was used. Ner'zhul nowhere to be found.
@@Wolfstorm701 presumably, Arthas' soul is still "the lich king" at this point. Otherwise feels weird to spit on him so hard at the end. Feels like he already paid for all that in wrath.
@@ZombieApocalypse09 Bolvar succeeded him and now there is no Lich King. Arthas wasn't spat on, his soul was being used as a battery and now it's all used up and pathetic. There's nothing left of him to cast judgment on. Sylvanas is able to move on from him, ready to face her own judgment.
I honestly feel very different about our characters being in these big moments, I personally don't care about how my character fits into the lore, I want to see these characters that I've known and loved for years do the awesome shit and it's probably because it's an mmo, you're not the only "champion of Azeroth", there are millions, so I just don't care, but that's just how I feel, anyway, great video! :)
Yeah, I’m the type to make the ugliest characters for lols and I don’t really want to see (Fistfok) a part of the story.
@@HandsomeBob1 That just proves Jesse's point. In a game like FF14 you care deeply about your character and you probably wouldn't want them to be Fistfok. :p In WoW, because the character is literally just a way for you to experience the story, there's no real reason to care.
So, remember in Cata when everyone was complaining about the main character of the xpac was Thrall not the players? I feel like instead of listening and not doing that, they just double downed on Anduin and people aren't nearly as pissed about it because they like him more than Thrall.
Hey Jesse! Did you ever get an answer about what that giant snake like creature is? It’s been so many years but the random memory hit while watching this.
If you mean the tail in the gundrak dungeon, they had answered that in a blizzcon Q&A panel, saying that probably it was planned to be something that was never realized and then just settled on "rule of cool"
@@dafire9634 yea I remember they gave him that answer after being caught off guard but I was asking for any update because really nobody actually knew for sure.
The point of the player character not being part of these prerendered cinematics is interesting since the only time they did something to include the player character was the demon hunter starting experience where it was filmed to be in first person. Compared to how many of these level of quality cinematics, it's kinda sad that they haven't found a work around to elude to the idea that the player character is there at these big moments and has an impact on the history of the story.
Anduin screaming when he rips the sword sounds like Jesse's Cyberpunk character screaming
"Undone by mortal souls... Wither now ?"
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