Yep, range is critical. Literally takes a 3-1 advantage to overcome that distance. And on a real battlefield, fighters would be much more wary about throwing themselves to certain death.
One thing though, those mock muskets seem a bit light. At least from my experience with a percussion lock civil war rifle (I assume earlier flintlocks wouldn’t be much lighter). Idk if I could wield it around so nimbly.
The synthetic trainers are aprox half weight of a typical flintlock musket and bayonet. We find that a happy medium between realism and safety. Yes they are a little more nimble than the real thing, but only slightly. As most of that extra weight in the originals is near where you are gripping the weapon, and not at the bayonet end. So butt strikes for example are slower, but they weren't so commonly used as in modern bayonet training. So its a factor, but not as significant a one as it might first seem. I've done some light sparring with an antique plunger type bayonet trainer that I own for example. It's full weight, and in pointwork is only slightly slower.
This was a well played out match, l Ione seeing the long lines of blades pointing at each other, tho if they wanted the people with swords could have used their axes to get a grip on the bayonets and move them allowing their swords to reach their opponents, but all that aside this was great and I love this
I have handled original 18th century hangers. The blades thin down radically in the first third on many. I'm not sure I would trust one to stop the weight of a musket. Love the guy with the spontoon btw. It's amazing you found a way to safely train this, I'd have thought spears and bayonets were too hard hitting.
Thanks, it is tough to get spears/bayonets right for sparring, but we've got some good tools now. As far as swords go, they vary immensely. A lot of 18th century naval cutlass were quite light, infantry hangers were often a good bit heftier, and yet officers versions can be very light. Ultimately though it's about engaging and parrying correctly You can parry a musket/broadsword with a smallsword if you do it right, it's all about parrying at the strongest part of the blade and using body mechanics to support the strongest guard (usually hanging positions)
What sword do you think is best against a bayonet? I know it all comes down to the skill of the fighter at the end of the day but is there a sword in your mind that would be best?
We've generally found the best swords for opposing bayonets and spears is something fairly light and of a medium length. It needs to be study enough it doesn't get pushed aside, but agile enough to counter the really fast disengages. Some decent hand protection is also ideal. So a spadroon, sidesword, or a narrow bladed sabre. The leverage of the bayonet means it is surprisingly fast, so agility is key.
Academy of Historical Fencing, thanks for the response! I figured something more meaty would be better so shows what I know lol. Thanks for all the interesting content!
It is very one sided in favour of the bayonets, until the odds are massively stacked against them. You can see the other side significantly increase in number throughout the video. As the horde start to become dominant because they outnumber their opponents 3 to 1, we shifted the white jacketed fencer with sabre over to the bayonet side. That single change was enough to completely change the odds once more.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Thats what i meant. I wonder if there is a factor that made the sabres at least a bit viable, maybe Bajonets bending? But other then that the rifles outperform them in every way
Interesting, although in reality the combatants would probably have a lot less space to move in. For which side this would be the most advantageous for, I don't know.
Considering we didn't put any barriers or obstacles up as we have at times, this more represents a fight on land. The less space the harder it is for the swords to out flank, but the more compressed the action the harder it can be for the bayonets to support one another, so it can vary a fair bit.
Based on how they're used & weights on Black Fencer website, I assume these muskets + bayonets are much lighter than the real thing. Also note that thrusts often fail to stop a committed attacker. Skewering a person doesn't necessarily prevent them from splitting your skull with a cut. I suspect this exercise overestimates the effectiveness of bayonets because of the lightness & the lack of realistic wounding dynamics.
The BF bayonet trainers are about half the weight of originals. They are a happy medium between realism and safety. Thrusts do sometimes fail to immediately stop an opponent, and this was discussed in period. However, it has led some to underestimate the stopping power of thrusts. Many accounts by military surgeons of the time discuss this fact. They say for example that thrusts to the abdomen often go unnoticed at first. despite their frequent later fatal nature. But that when a man is thrust in the chest, they almost always drop immediately. Additionally, as this is friendly sparring with safe training weapons, there is a lack of fear of the thrust that so many felt historically, knowing how horrific the wounds were. So whilst there are some factors that can effect the result of the test, they exist on both sides. We do of course know from historical data just how widely used and effective spears and bayonets were.
Not so much. Circling in one on one against a bayonet/pike does nothing as they can disengage and change direction of the point far quicker than your body van. 1 on 1 sword vs some type of spear is always tough. Only large shields or armour can significantly tip the balance in favour of the swordsman. Increasing the number of attackers makes it a little easier.
Many try, and it is a legit tactic, but its very hard to do even in a one-on-one fight, let alone a melee where the bayonet users have friends. Bayonets move quickly because of the leverage of the wide two handed grip, and can often disengage and counter grabs, as well as their friends assisting as opponents try and close.
@@benjaminabbott4705 Whilst that is true, it's only a moderate difference. It's not like comparing say a sword of double the weight to another sword. This is largely because it is a two handed weapon wth a widely spaced grip giving a lot of leverage over the weapon. I do also use an original 1915 dated army bayonet training rifle for some drills. It is of the similar weight and size of Napoleonic muskets and bayonets. Though it is slower, that is marginal. Where you mostly notice the weight is when you try and use the stock for strike because of the mass there. But in thrust based actions, it is little different. This is all down to mass distribution.
1. Makes for a great sidearm. Zweihanders could be able to beat spear if the person wielding it knows how to use it. Heard they can break like formations 2. In the pirates case here, they were great for ship combat due to its Scottish length, its heft that can cut ropes, and how crowded it would get.
For close combat. Once you're inside a spearmans reach the spear becomes useless, and having a shorter sidearm comes in handy. Note that throughout history soldiers who mastered wielding a spear-like weapon (greek/macedon hoplites, roman legionaires, the Landsknecht, swiss pikemen etc.) carried a short(er) cut and thrust weapon in case of emergency (xiphos, gladius, arming sword, katzbalger and so on).
Mostly because of convenience and their multi purpose qualities. Swords are easier to wear and carry in a range of scenarios, which makes them well suited to civilian life, and as sidearms in a military one. Their compact side can also make them ideal for close range combat due to where you are fighting, or compact formations. Couple them with a good shield and they can also then counter spears much more effectively. The sword was not often a primary battlefield weapon, but it excelled as a secondary one, and one for use in civilian life.
@@CampeadorHUN Yes, people often forget how pikes stop working in the press of battle because of how close everyone is, forcing pikers to drop their pikes & fight with swords. In additiok to what you mention, based on artwork, some Swiss pikers & halberdiers wore longswords for this phase of combat. & sometimes things got so tight only daggers were serviceable.
@@benjaminabbott4705 That's true, I just didn't want to write too long of a post. Wanted to mention bastard swords and longswords aswell, there are depictions of them being used in close combat during battles, sieges etc.
Im thinking: "Throw the ****ing axe! You have two weapons!" Seriously, if you physically can't close the distance with footwork or counters and it's a fight to the death. Seems like they should be using the axe defensively. Hook the bayonet and redirect it, circle to their backfoot. Don't rush in immediately, gauge your distance and stay out of the stabby zone. I bet if two guys rushed a bayonet at once one is going to get in 9/10. You gotta break the formation. I feel that with the bayonets effectiveness, there has to be someone willing to rush in and break it up. A willing sacrifice so to say. Calculated recklessness. Is your gear rated to take a throw from one of your training axes btw? Just curious because then it's more understandable that they didn't exhaust that option. Also, wouldn't real bayonets have a liability to break at points of weakness? I'd imagine a good axe blow could break a bayonet from a gun, depending on the individual guns and their sturdiness. Not saying I know anything, these are just my firsthand speculations.
We don't allow throwing of weapons unless it has been previously agreed and made safe. Primarily because there are always other people in the hall who are not part of the fight. You need a carefully controlled enviroment for it. Theotrically you could though yes. You can see lots of attempts to hook the bayonets and also rush here. It needs to be done, but its very risky, and many times they run to their death to no advantage gained. The bayonet users can also cover one another really well due to reach, so charging one can often get you skewered by another. The reality is that faced with this, you would have to try and mob the bayonets in large numbers very quickly, but it takes some serious diecipline and guts to do it. Which is why so many soldiers have run from bayonet charges. As for strength, no really. Obviously there are a lot of different bayonets in the world, but in this period, they were triangular section, like an estoc. Very stiff, and very strong, as was the collar connecting them to the musket. A hard hit could knock the weapon aside, but you'd be better off using more subtle actions to bind it, rather than swinging hard and opening yourself up to the disengages that suit the bayonet so well. Lastly, we're at the start of a naval boarding action block of training. So whilst there are many good swordsmen here, many have relatively little experience of bayonets/pikes, and especially of facing them in group combat. As the lessons progress they will learn and adapt and see where it goes. Of course a crew in real life may be very experienced, or have little to no experience at all.
Yep, range is critical. Literally takes a 3-1 advantage to overcome that distance. And on a real battlefield, fighters would be much more wary about throwing themselves to certain death.
Short spear that can go bang vs curvy slashy thing
Really enjoyed that! Liked the illustration of the importance of staying close to each other...
A bunch of brits with bayonets and red coats makes for a great day I should think.
Pirates were mostly Brits.
I really prefer these team on team fights. They may be a bit difficult to ref, but add complexity to the concept.
Yup, bayonets work
Wouldn't have been the mainstay of the battlefield for 200 years if they didn't work.
It's great to see the bayonet get some love!
The first battle made me think of the sand people from Star Wars when the bayonet fighters held their weapon up high.
Amazing, hopefully my club will have as many members soon, so we can do stuff like this.
Thanks for being an inspiration Nick.
Readyyyy begin !!!
Marines "Presenttttttt Fire!" 😉
It's spears vs. swords all over again. :D Very cool video!
One thing though, those mock muskets seem a bit light. At least from my experience with a percussion lock civil war rifle (I assume earlier flintlocks wouldn’t be much lighter). Idk if I could wield it around so nimbly.
The synthetic trainers are aprox half weight of a typical flintlock musket and bayonet. We find that a happy medium between realism and safety. Yes they are a little more nimble than the real thing, but only slightly. As most of that extra weight in the originals is near where you are gripping the weapon, and not at the bayonet end. So butt strikes for example are slower, but they weren't so commonly used as in modern bayonet training. So its a factor, but not as significant a one as it might first seem. I've done some light sparring with an antique plunger type bayonet trainer that I own for example. It's full weight, and in pointwork is only slightly slower.
Good lesson Lad, swords can be romantic however…
This was a well played out match, l Ione seeing the long lines of blades pointing at each other, tho if they wanted the people with swords could have used their axes to get a grip on the bayonets and move them allowing their swords to reach their opponents, but all that aside this was great and I love this
I have handled original 18th century hangers. The blades thin down radically in the first third on many. I'm not sure I would trust one to stop the weight of a musket. Love the guy with the spontoon btw.
It's amazing you found a way to safely train this, I'd have thought spears and bayonets were too hard hitting.
Thanks, it is tough to get spears/bayonets right for sparring, but we've got some good tools now. As far as swords go, they vary immensely. A lot of 18th century naval cutlass were quite light, infantry hangers were often a good bit heftier, and yet officers versions can be very light. Ultimately though it's about engaging and parrying correctly You can parry a musket/broadsword with a smallsword if you do it right, it's all about parrying at the strongest part of the blade and using body mechanics to support the strongest guard (usually hanging positions)
"Men: affix bayonets, charge!"
There are few things more terrifying in melee combat than facing a spear with a sword.
That was really fun to watch!
What sword do you think is best against a bayonet? I know it all comes down to the skill of the fighter at the end of the day but is there a sword in your mind that would be best?
We've generally found the best swords for opposing bayonets and spears is something fairly light and of a medium length. It needs to be study enough it doesn't get pushed aside, but agile enough to counter the really fast disengages. Some decent hand protection is also ideal. So a spadroon, sidesword, or a narrow bladed sabre. The leverage of the bayonet means it is surprisingly fast, so agility is key.
Academy of Historical Fencing, thanks for the response! I figured something more meaty would be better so shows what I know lol. Thanks for all the interesting content!
I expected it to be onesided but not that much
It is very one sided in favour of the bayonets, until the odds are massively stacked against them. You can see the other side significantly increase in number throughout the video. As the horde start to become dominant because they outnumber their opponents 3 to 1, we shifted the white jacketed fencer with sabre over to the bayonet side. That single change was enough to completely change the odds once more.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Thats what i meant. I wonder if there is a factor that made the sabres at least a bit viable, maybe Bajonets bending? But other then that the rifles outperform them in every way
This is why spears were the main battlefield weapon for millennia people.
Interesting, although in reality the combatants would probably have a lot less space to move in. For which side this would be the most advantageous for, I don't know.
Considering we didn't put any barriers or obstacles up as we have at times, this more represents a fight on land. The less space the harder it is for the swords to out flank, but the more compressed the action the harder it can be for the bayonets to support one another, so it can vary a fair bit.
Brilliant!
Where are some spadroons?
Nice contest
Based on how they're used & weights on Black Fencer website, I assume these muskets + bayonets are much lighter than the real thing. Also note that thrusts often fail to stop a committed attacker. Skewering a person doesn't necessarily prevent them from splitting your skull with a cut. I suspect this exercise overestimates the effectiveness of bayonets because of the lightness & the lack of realistic wounding dynamics.
The BF bayonet trainers are about half the weight of originals. They are a happy medium between realism and safety. Thrusts do sometimes fail to immediately stop an opponent, and this was discussed in period. However, it has led some to underestimate the stopping power of thrusts. Many accounts by military surgeons of the time discuss this fact. They say for example that thrusts to the abdomen often go unnoticed at first. despite their frequent later fatal nature. But that when a man is thrust in the chest, they almost always drop immediately. Additionally, as this is friendly sparring with safe training weapons, there is a lack of fear of the thrust that so many felt historically, knowing how horrific the wounds were. So whilst there are some factors that can effect the result of the test, they exist on both sides. We do of course know from historical data just how widely used and effective spears and bayonets were.
I suspect having more freedom of movement (i.e. 1v1) and a less linear footwork (circle around the bayonet) will tip the favour back to the swordsman.
Not so much. Circling in one on one against a bayonet/pike does nothing as they can disengage and change direction of the point far quicker than your body van. 1 on 1 sword vs some type of spear is always tough. Only large shields or armour can significantly tip the balance in favour of the swordsman. Increasing the number of attackers makes it a little easier.
Why dont the pirates just grab the end if the muskets?
Many try, and it is a legit tactic, but its very hard to do even in a one-on-one fight, let alone a melee where the bayonet users have friends. Bayonets move quickly because of the leverage of the wide two handed grip, and can often disengage and counter grabs, as well as their friends assisting as opponents try and close.
They also move quickly because these simulators are half the weight of the real thing, as mentioned elsewhere.
@@benjaminabbott4705 Whilst that is true, it's only a moderate difference. It's not like comparing say a sword of double the weight to another sword. This is largely because it is a two handed weapon wth a widely spaced grip giving a lot of leverage over the weapon. I do also use an original 1915 dated army bayonet training rifle for some drills. It is of the similar weight and size of Napoleonic muskets and bayonets. Though it is slower, that is marginal. Where you mostly notice the weight is when you try and use the stock for strike because of the mass there. But in thrust based actions, it is little different. This is all down to mass distribution.
The title is a One Piece reference, isn't it?
Who was it who said "Size doesnt matter?"
It also depends on the context🤣
this may seem odd but why were swords ever used? spear always beats sword.
1. Makes for a great sidearm. Zweihanders could be able to beat spear if the person wielding it knows how to use it. Heard they can break like formations
2. In the pirates case here, they were great for ship combat due to its Scottish length, its heft that can cut ropes, and how crowded it would get.
For close combat. Once you're inside a spearmans reach the spear becomes useless, and having a shorter sidearm comes in handy. Note that throughout history soldiers who mastered wielding a spear-like weapon (greek/macedon hoplites, roman legionaires, the Landsknecht, swiss pikemen etc.) carried a short(er) cut and thrust weapon in case of emergency (xiphos, gladius, arming sword, katzbalger and so on).
Mostly because of convenience and their multi purpose qualities. Swords are easier to wear and carry in a range of scenarios, which makes them well suited to civilian life, and as sidearms in a military one. Their compact side can also make them ideal for close range combat due to where you are fighting, or compact formations. Couple them with a good shield and they can also then counter spears much more effectively. The sword was not often a primary battlefield weapon, but it excelled as a secondary one, and one for use in civilian life.
@@CampeadorHUN Yes, people often forget how pikes stop working in the press of battle because of how close everyone is, forcing pikers to drop their pikes & fight with swords. In additiok to what you mention, based on artwork, some Swiss pikers & halberdiers wore longswords for this phase of combat. & sometimes things got so tight only daggers were serviceable.
@@benjaminabbott4705 That's true, I just didn't want to write too long of a post. Wanted to mention bastard swords and longswords aswell, there are depictions of them being used in close combat during battles, sieges etc.
Im thinking: "Throw the ****ing axe! You have two weapons!"
Seriously, if you physically can't close the distance with footwork or counters and it's a fight to the death. Seems like they should be using the axe defensively. Hook the bayonet and redirect it, circle to their backfoot. Don't rush in immediately, gauge your distance and stay out of the stabby zone. I bet if two guys rushed a bayonet at once one is going to get in 9/10. You gotta break the formation. I feel that with the bayonets effectiveness, there has to be someone willing to rush in and break it up. A willing sacrifice so to say. Calculated recklessness. Is your gear rated to take a throw from one of your training axes btw? Just curious because then it's more understandable that they didn't exhaust that option. Also, wouldn't real bayonets have a liability to break at points of weakness? I'd imagine a good axe blow could break a bayonet from a gun, depending on the individual guns and their sturdiness. Not saying I know anything, these are just my firsthand speculations.
We don't allow throwing of weapons unless it has been previously agreed and made safe. Primarily because there are always other people in the hall who are not part of the fight. You need a carefully controlled enviroment for it. Theotrically you could though yes.
You can see lots of attempts to hook the bayonets and also rush here. It needs to be done, but its very risky, and many times they run to their death to no advantage gained. The bayonet users can also cover one another really well due to reach, so charging one can often get you skewered by another. The reality is that faced with this, you would have to try and mob the bayonets in large numbers very quickly, but it takes some serious diecipline and guts to do it. Which is why so many soldiers have run from bayonet charges.
As for strength, no really. Obviously there are a lot of different bayonets in the world, but in this period, they were triangular section, like an estoc. Very stiff, and very strong, as was the collar connecting them to the musket. A hard hit could knock the weapon aside, but you'd be better off using more subtle actions to bind it, rather than swinging hard and opening yourself up to the disengages that suit the bayonet so well.
Lastly, we're at the start of a naval boarding action block of training. So whilst there are many good swordsmen here, many have relatively little experience of bayonets/pikes, and especially of facing them in group combat. As the lessons progress they will learn and adapt and see where it goes. Of course a crew in real life may be very experienced, or have little to no experience at all.
nice
RRRRRRR
Sure bayonets have better range, but a slash to the face has more knock out power than a stab to the chest.
Then you realize they're not holding spears, those are guns.
Yeah but what if the gun is out of ammo
And the enemy is close to you?