That's actually my goal with my novel. My antagonists are not really evil, my protagonists have flaws. I want to let the reader sympathize with everyone and also disagree with everyone sometimes
+Hells Mirror I feel like that's gonna be a trope within the next decade or so. So many villains these days are sympathetic it's become almost standard, lol.
It already is a trope. It's boring. Anti-heroes are the trope now too. It's a lot harder to be good in the face of awful circumstances than it is to be "understandably bad."
Ian Connel I find it annoying how trope-ifying can ruin perfectly good concepts. The idea of good and evil is boring. I dislike the simplicity in it. If your story isn't fairytale-esque and it portrays morality in such childish ways, then it gets a few points off in my book. I greatly enjoy books with a grey morality! The sad thing is, ever since Game of Thrones got popular, everyone and their mother decided to utilize the concept. Now the tropes are flipped. Grey is becoming bland while black and white is becoming rare. I hate that.
The most disappointing thing about Twilight was its wasted premise. The whole conflict about Edward loving Bella but also desiring her blood falls flat, because Bella narrates and she is not afraid of him! If she was afraid of him, she’d genuinely fear for her life while spending time with him, but she’d still desire him and be helpless to resist. That would be awesome! Finally, someone else who was disappointed by The Mortal Instruments. I've heard that The Infernal Devices are better. I write about angel-human hybrids fighting demons myself, and I've tried to explore the dynamics between demi-angels, angels, demons, and humans.
Yes! Shadowbook and Those Who Fly by yours truly! www.shadowbook.pub www.thosewhofly.pub Okay, I apologize for the shameless self-advertising. TWF needs some serious revision anyway. I just finished reading "The Night Circus" by Erin Morgenstern and I was extremely impressed by it. It's not technically a YA book, but it takes every trope and does it RIGHT. It is so beautifully written. Technically, it has the same premise as The Hunger Games-- boy and girl are locked in a competition in which only one may survive, but they fall in love. None of the romance scenes felt contrived, though, and they weren't angsty in any way. The book really is about this ethereal circus, only open at night. I thought it was a masterpiece. I've become a big fan of Neil Gaiman lately. Stardust was my favorite book by him, but I also enjoyed Coraline, Sandman, and Good Omens (with Terry Prachett). I plan to read American Gods and Neverwhere next. An interesting and original series is the Fairyland series by Cathrynne M. Valente, beginning with The Girl who Circumnavigated Fairyland in a Ship of her Own Making. It's technically a children's series, but it has all the quirkiness of Alice in Wonderland and twists fairy tale tropes into knots.
Nyx Shadowhawk I personally think that if Twilight explored the concept of people with a dangerous impulse (vampires with blood) wanting to suppress that impulse in the name of morality and asked whether they should be accepted while confronting the inherent risk there would be to actually accepting them, it could've been much more interesting.
I remember lots of details from the Harry Potter series like the quidditch matches, the dursley family, etc. Yet I can't remember a single detail from the Twilight books other than Bella almost got hit by a car. Speaks volumes about the meaning of these books.
As an aspiring author, I'm hoping my work-in-progress novel will be able to tell a great story with great characters and themes for readers (Prejudice, existentialism, all that fun schtuff.). Granted, mine is new adult, though my greatest fear is it ending up as wasted potential such as Twilight.
Going into this, I thought you were coming from a place of hatred for YA in general, but I actually got the sense that you really like reading YA, but see flaws within certain pieces of writing. I enjoyed this type of video. ^^
I agree with you, however, I don't *want* to read stories with meaning ALL the time. Reading Twilight is relaxing when you take it for what it is: an unrealistic fluffy fantasy of a plain girl who likes control and magically finds a super hot rich guy who controls her in perfect ways she likes. I mean, sure, I cry rivers with novels like Les Miserables, and I think about them for ages, but sometimes I'm so done with reality I just want to read something silly and cute, so I'm thankful for these YA stories (and fanfic of course).
Good vid - I also really liked Hunger Games, mainly for the way it reflected both Ancient Roman and modern society, complete with ridicule of one of my own pet peeves - 'reality' TV! Good example of moral message.
As a middle school reading teacher, I can honestly say that you are spot on in your assessment of the average YA novel. I would say more, but you laid out everything perfectly. Thank you!
As a teacher, have you ever thought of using David Eddings in your classes? I was in grade school when my dad put those in my hands and it started a long and happy life of reading for me. I always wondered why teachers never used his work. They are perfectly appropriate for children. There is nothing vulgar or obscene in his Belgariad or Mallorean series.
I saw a picture of Harry Potter grouped together in the thumbnail and I came to defend my boy lol Although I'm a little bummed you didn't mention Dumbledore...
Lack of meaning is usually the appeal of mainstream media because people want to watch something fun and entertaining without much thought to it, which is perfectly fine, but since that's what sells that's what's marketed and force-fed to us the most. There's plenty of really eye-opening, thought-provoking stuff out there, but it seems like you have to dig through pile after pile of shallow movies/books/series to find them, which I guess is why pop culture and whatnot has such a bad rep to it, too. In a nutshell: 'tis a sad life.
Thats the struggle I face in my writing I try to be deep and insightful but through writing I wonder if that would even apply to pop culture If it's a book u really have to think about maybe it wouldn't make it that far.. it would become one of those books you really have to dig for So I've started to make it a bit more simple for the masses but I worry I might be oversimplifying for ppl who seek mental stimulation I've also decided that maybe I should keep a surface level meaning for who doesn't care to delve deeper.. Not make the ultimate plot a whole workout So u get a surface level understanding But still if one would want to pull it apart and delve into motivations and character drive, itz all there So as a result I've thought then maybe since my book has 17 yr protagonists, maybe it's a Ya But it requires alot more thought than avg Ya so I decided it's more in line with a Na.. there is nothing racey in there so I feel like adult readers would be disappointed if I call it adult
Even though I really enjoyed the Mortal Instruments, I'm with you in that they're not particularly deep or thoughtful books. They missed many interesting topics: the morality of child soldiers, post traumatic stress from fighting the literal armies of hell, religious subjectivity and how your lineage and ascendance define you. The last one was a particularly big missed opportunity, not only because many characters are direct descendants from demons and villains, but also because how big of a deal it was in the first three books. It was sort of talked about with Magnus Bane and his Great Demon father, but the only character really developed in this context was Sebastian (and even then about the kind of man who he could have been, and the fact that he never had any choice on the matter). He is amongst my favorite villains ever, but for his complexity or relatability, given that he's 100% pure evil
Jewel Sims They can be, for sure! I just think they'll have a lot harder time leaving an impression if they don't. I also think that most stories that make us feel strong emotions have at least subtle commentary on humanity or the human condition.
Well, I also think that the occasional book that is just plain fun is good too. However, I would put that at the bottom of the list of the most important purposes for a book. I also can’t see why it can’t sometimes do all three of these things.
I mean, maybe the story doesn’t have anything to do with humanity. Maybe it has to do with a person’s concept of what family is, or how they should treat other people, or how to see something more positively. Maybe it has to do with the extent someone should deal with people’e bs before they should put their foot down. Maybe it deals with why people act a certain way, and how a conversation they have or a sentence they say can mean so much more or have so much more history than the words said on the surface. But I guess incorporating the idea of what is humane and what isn’t could really enrich the plot. The point is to give insight and to offer a different outlook on things, isn’t it? As long as they succeed with that, they’ve sent their message. You have to know what kind of message you want to send to your readers when you write a book. The trick is actually being able to deliver it.
I loved this video! A fantastic example of a 'weak' character who still holds a strong set of beliefs is Winston Smith from George Orwell's 1984. The book, his character, and everything between are some of the best examples of dystopia done absolutely and almost terrifyingly right.
I have to disagree a little with the premise that a story has to have a moral or examine humanity to be good, have longevity, or be worthy of thought. My first example being that of Final Fantasy XIII. The video game world pretty much universally dubs this game one of the worst of its generation. However the story it tells does a lot to examine humanity and specifically its relationship to nature and religion. The problem that this story runs into is that there is a lack of focus. We barely know our own main cast, the world they live in, or the terminology of their universe by the time we are really supposed to care about them and what they are going through. I don't really care to think about the game and barely remember most of it despite this Nature vs Religion relationship that the narrative tries to tell. My second example being a title from your neck of the woods (YA Fiction) being the Darkest Minds. It might be able to be said that this books series looks at the human condition in the face of adversity and learning the importance of family and that it isn't only the people whose blood your share. But these aren't exactly hard hitting or even all that thought provoking of ideas. However this book series consumed my thoughts for months after I finished reading it for the fifth time. There really isn't much to think about besides the status of the in-story universe itself and the fate of the characters. Yet, I was also completely satisfied once it was done and could only say that I wanted more because I didn't want to be out of stuff to read from this universe and not because it felt incomplete or hollow. Thirdly I would point out the TV show Psych (and most comedies in general). The nature of comedy is that it entertains you. However, I became so immersed in the concept of Psych (a man pretending to be psychic and solving crimes as a consult for the Santa Barbara Police Department) that it too made me obsess over its existence for years. So here is my thing... I don't think that there is anything wrong with being without a moral or examination of humanity. I also don't think that every story HAS to make you think in order to be good or have longevity.This is primarily because I also don't believe that lacking these things removes the ability for them to have 'meaning.' Don't get me wrong, I think that there is a lot to be liked in stories that do have those things and that they absolutely have place in the world, but I just think that it is a bit short sighted to try to elevate them above anything else when they are just different category of entertainment.
I like watching your videos because this is really helping me in where I’m stuck with my book. I want it to have meaning, but I don’t just want to send it out into the world like a ship on fire
Love this! It's so hard to find a critical look at YA on youtube, since it's generally the focus of most booktubers' channels. But there's a lot lacking in the genre, especially recently. Though there's nothing wrong with adult YA readers, we have to acknowledge the genre in geared to and draws in a crowd of young people who's perspective on literature (and maybe even society) is shaped by these books. When you take away meaning from these novels, all the audience is left to take in is flat plot, and the raw characters dynamics. Kids don't tend to read with a critical lens, and often end up idolizing characters/relationships that they shouldn't be internalizing (and wouldn't have to if there were more substance). When those characters represent horrible lessons about society like the "not like other girls" trope, emotional destructive or codependent relationships, flawless protagonists, etc, those are pretty scary thing for young teens to be learning. Strangely, middle grade (like Harry Potter) doesn't seem to suffer from this as much. Some of the most meaningful novels I've ever read have been middle grade- probably because they don't feel the need to make everything dramatic, fast, and sexy to appeal to teenagers, and can take the time to create stories that will matter to their young audience. All in all, the genre seems to have become a race to write the next Hunger Games, Divergent, or MI that'll cultivate a huge, undying fanbase. In the process, authors lose sight of what their writing means and who it's for.
I like my books like my movies, entertaining. If it was all preachy and meaningful but boring or frustrating, I wouldn't like it, so I tend to like books that are, you know, entertaining first. Very good video though and I do enjoy when a work gives us something to think about. :)
This is such a well thought out and well put together video. I'm working on a novel right now, and I really got something valuable from this. I want my characters to exhibit how good and bad are very blended, and not exactly as black and white we as a society pretend it is. My two main characters do things that would be considered "bad", however they both are in horrible situations that could potentially make any "good" person do the same bad things that they do. I want to highlight human nature in its real form, not just good and bad, because we are so much more than that. Anyways, just wanted to share! The way this highlighted the pitfalls and also high points of YA really helped me to see where I want my own project to go!
I hope that, when I will publish my first book, you will already become a popular youtuber in the BookTube community. I like you voice and way of thinking. I'm not a fan of YA novels, but you kind of showed what I can add to my novel to make the message behind it more powerful. Thank you!! You have a new subscriber!
I totally agree. YA does lack aspects of connotations relating to our everyday society, moreover, I also read for the story and character. The story needs to have depth and needs to be intriguing. Many say characters need to be relatable, I disagree. There are more than 6 billion people on this earth, we cant always make characters relatable, but they need to be interesting. Books shouldn't be based on feelings but should be relatable to this society which is indoctrinated with so much, as you said with technology, for example. (btw this is not directly at you jordan, i was just expressing my views lol.)
Fantastic analysis video, I totally agree with you. I don’t enjoyed many YA novels but that’s not for lack of trying them. Ever since being totally shocked at how barebones, boring and unlikeable Twilight was, I’ve avoided YA + Vampires. Recently for Booktube-a-thon I was recommended by a friend to read; “The Immortal Rules” by Julie Kagawa, and I think this novel did everything right that Twilight did wrong. Morality and Humanity are major themes and because of that I was pleasantly surprised how much I ended up enjoying it.
It honestly makes me sad how popular Twilight is. There seems to be an absolute plethora of Twilight clones out there. I recently had some experience with many adult women raving about these superficial vampire novels. some of them are nothing more than softcore porn with vampires and a few other fantasy or supernatural characters. Some of these women actually thought the YA authors invented some of these characters. None of them have ever picked up a real fantasy novel and have no interest in. I never did the YA thing. My dad was always a huge fantasy fan and he had a huge collection waiting as soon as I could read. I consider myself fortunate. Some people consider David Eddings "YA" but it is nothing like the garbage considered "YA" now.
The funny thing is that Edward brought up a lot of occasions where he was like “yo, fuck off, we’re gonna kill you” and “we literally aren’t human or moral” and Bella goes “but you’re pretty so we’re gonna ignore that”. I just think Stephanie was almost too lazy to explore these ideas deeper. (Even though I kinda love Twilight bc it’s like reading somebody’s dream (which it is, Stephanie literally dreamt it)
I am convinced she had read Vampire Diaries before she made Twilight too. Vampire diaries were created in the early 90s -the covers were just revamped in the 2000s- by LJ Smith and there are a ton of similarities between Edward and Stefan
I so agree with you. The hunger games was what drew me into YA because I couldn't stop thinking about the messages after putting it down. I was left kind of disappointed when I read other series and books (with some exceptions). They were fun and occasionally well-written, but few of them managed to give me the feeling that I loved: of learning and growing as I read and changing my way of thinking for the rest of my life. Lately I have seen a trend of books with a political message (against homophobia or racism or you name it) and I appreciate that a lot, but they're often too surface-level to really light a spark for me.
Great vid Jordan, I really like the looking under the hood of story-telling. A message, or a theme seems integral to having a story that people will think about long afterwards. Hayley ^_^
this was very eye opening. dont worry. once u get the hang of it, u can do scripted videos and ppl wont be able to tell theyre scripted (MOST videos on youtube are scripted and as much as that annoys me, it makes those channels more money to have their videos seem naturalistic even though they're actually looking at a script.)
Yeah, I know it's a tad rough, but I think my more recent videos, which are a combination of scripted and non-scripted are a bit better. I just think that for analysis videos, it's important to have it thought-out and researched prior to me filming. I know that I'll be able to get my points across more efficiently if there's an outline beforehand!
KreativeKill I prefer the scripted videos. The unscripted ones tend to get long and rambling and I lose interest. Yes, you can tell that’s she’s reading from a script in this video but the points she’s making are so interesting that I don’t even care. She did a great job 👍🏾
I love listening to your videos while I do work around the house. They’re like video podcasts, and they really make me think. I’m currently listening to this while rearranging my bookshelf. Love your channel!
I enjoyed this video. I have also had a hard time with stories that do not really say anything. It is not because we want entertainment to be preachy but at its base, a good story has a message that causes readers to think. Thank you, you have a new subscriber.
I think that one of my favorite YA has a lot of theming on someone that rarely gets explored: Abusive family dynamics. Val is cold, controlling, and manipulative, but she's all Veronyka has had, as they've moved around a lot. Without spoiling it, she did something inexcusable to Veronyka and this ends up changing thejr relationships for the rest of the series.
One YA book series that I think dealt with morality and humanity really well was the Unwind series (technically this series falls under middle school fiction, but oh well). The book series really makes the reader question where life really begins and ends, what truly makes us human, and what the limitations of scientific advancement should be. Plus it's set in a terrifyingly realistic future.
I will never shut up about the *Spellslinger series by Sebastien De Castell* . The intricate wordlbuilding and constant action only help the reader further explore morality, authority, historical awareness, identity and ultimately human purpose. It is the best YA series I've read, and my heart will forever go out to it because at 16, it was exactly what I needed, and I really do believe it changed me as a person. A while ago I had my first-ever encounter with a wacky, sly landlord. Even in trying to find my way out of it, certain quotes and scenes from the books crossed my mind as a moral guide. So yeah. I'd say they are good.
I know this video is sorta old but yes this is one of the many goals for my series. I want to question what's good & what's bad & how perception plays a role in it. I fight that idea in my novel where I have my protagonist question this many times. Also, yes about the immortal instruments...My novel is also about Half-angels fighting demons (as well as hybrids). I want my series to look at the dynamics of what is good & what is bad & why it is. Because not everything is so black & white. There's always a middle. Thank you again for this video!
ive always had a problem with ya fiction and i could never quite pinpoint what it was but you just managed to hit the nail on the head so kudos to you :D
My biggest question is for you and other readers of YA. Why don't you explore adult novels since it doesn't suffer the lack of meaning and the simplicity of YA. Why don't people just read adult novels. Some young readers may think it's is boring, too complicated or the adult characters will not connect with them. It is not true, adult novels will surprise you of how good and exciting they are, so much that you don't need to waste your money on poorly written books for teens. Let's face it, the YA " genre" is just sea of bad books with some miracle novels here and there that have meaning, plot, characters good enough to discuss. We know why this is happening. It's because people still buy it. Same with movies if something sells then we got alot of it and quality goes down. Discussions and comments are fine but they won't change much. The only way you can change the market is by using your money wisely and only paying for quality books.
Not just adult books but children’s books too! Classic children’s books can be surprisingly deep ! Books like The Little Prince, Momo, A Wrinkle in Time, Anne of Green Gables, The Phantom Tollbooth, stories by CS Lewis, AA Milne, Neil Gaiman, Phillip Pullman,Lewis Carol etc. (bias here they’re all my favourites haha) contain pretty interesting topics and can be very beautiful. It feels like children’s lit has a lot of room to be beautiful while talking about some pretty deep and clever stuff. Some of the most heart wrenching and beautiful books I’ve read have been geared towards children. And that’s counting picture books! Picture books are their own form of art in both story and illustrations and it makes me sad that adults get scared away from reading them.... It’s incredible what some authors write for little ones! Why give teens crappy books when children’s and adult’s books are given so much space to be good! Gyaahhh! If I want some light but also beautiful books, I go for some comforting kids lit! ( and like with anything, there are some bad ones ...)
Yes, there is a sea of bad YA books out there. Of authors trying to ride the coattails of the successful, deeply thought out YA books we've seen. But the genre is far from needing to be abandoned all together. There is a type of YA novels that get pushed into the limelight, so people think that's all there is to the genre. In reality, there are quite a few great ones out there if you go beyond the scope of vampire romances and the like. The Chaos Walking series by Patrick Ness deals with the kinds of questions some adult fiction struggles to explore, like colonization and it's darker side, it's backlashes. The kind of horrors that human fear can accomplish, and the societal and psychological effect of everyone being able to hear everyone else's thoughts. Then you have Sabriel by Garth Nix. While this book is labeled as a fantasy novel, it still fits in YA. The MC has just barely turned 18 when the book starts (and the sequels follow even younger MCs), and this series deals with all kinds of deep stuff. With a very strong message that even the most evil monsters out there once started out as human. Then, through a series of bad choices, they became something utterly horrible. Something that couldn't even be considered human anymore. Couple that with the message that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and you've got a pretty fantastic set of books. I could keep listing more of these, one after the other, and never run out of examples. Point is, people assume YA means some form of teen romance and angst with some other fantastical setting or plot point thrown in. But that group is only a very tiny part of the whole genre. So people should stop buying this romantic trash they're pumping and dumping (hoping for another Twilight level success) and start looking at all the dozens of other sub-genres YA has to offer. If people go long enough without buying those types of books, they'll be forced to produce better romance YA. But yeah, it's not a problem with the entire genre. It's a problem with the sub-genre of romance.
? Adult novels *do* suffer from lack of meaning and can be extremely simplistic. The main thing I like about contemporary YA is the exploration of deep feelings that I don't get from contemporary adult novels. I'm reading The Girl on the Train ATM, which is an interesting character study of morally ambiguous people, but I'm missing the feelings I get from reading YA.
Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Harry Potter will never be matched with its complexity and character development and overall world building. I attempted Divergent and DNF. After I read 50 shades of shifty writing and was told it was a knock off of twilight my will to ever read a YA book ceased. I dont understand grown people reading these YA books. I'll stay will my Game of Thrones and Lord of the rings.
WrinkleinTime42 I agree. Children’s books I would highly recommend are Patrick Ness’ “The knife of never letting go” and “A monster calls”. The Giver is also great (Felt some Murakami vibes from it as it seems somewhat similar to some parts of hard boiled wonderland and the end of the world) As for books for older audiences, I recommend a book called “Burung-Burung Manyar” by YB Mangunwijaya (Translated to English as “The Weaverbirds”). Its a coming of age story set in colonial Indonesia and tells the tale of a boy and a girl as they take different paths through life and the struggles they go through.
I just recently read Rot and Ruin by Jonathan Maberry . It was amazing, it talked a lot about humanity and morality. Was something that I didn’t expect and your right it’s a lot easier to remember the story when it has a strong message. Great video!
Your analysis of TMI is so on point. There's so much to explore with the shadowhunter vs downworlder dynamic. It's clear some shadowhunters are very prejudiced against downworlders, but the author doesn't really dive into that aspect of the story in detail. The TV show does a better job with it, even having characters that are good people have prejudices and grow to learn they were wrong. It still has all the plot twists, but there's a lot more substance with the prejudice of shadowhunters better explored.
I'd recommend a Japanese visual novel by the name, 'Umineko no naku koro ni' written by Ryukishi07. In my opinion, its an excellent novel that encapsulates different aspects of the human condition through a mystery/supernatural lens.
I love your videos. I've watched a dozen of them already, and I only just discovered your amazing content a couple days ago! You've given me some great ideas on things I know I need to fix in my books! Thanks! You are awesome!
They have all been helpful! I would say these are more useful than most (if not all) of the panels I’ve gone to at writer conventions. I have so many tabs of your videos open right now, I’ll be surprised if my computer doesn’t crash, haha! ’_’;
I started with one of your book review videos, and it’s so refreshing to finally hear reviews that mirror my own thoughts/impressions in so many ways. I don’t mean that in a, “I just want validation” way, but it’s great to see people who want or expect similar things out of books and characters. And you make so many great points, and articulate everything so masterfully! It’s so helpful to hear these things said out loud, and said so well!:-) Thank you for making these!
The Throne Of Glass doesn’t get better. Trust me. I’ve read the first three books and they are so slow progressing and even more about Romance. Now she does find herself more in the third book but the book itself is the slowest thing ever.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this video! These are exactly the same problems I had with books mentioned! I'm glad somebody has the same opinion and conveys it so eloquently and fearlessly. It seems like the most important thing in majority of these types of novels is the main character(s) being spoilt, arogant little badass :-(
I really liked this video and you hit the nail with a lot of these books. I do think that the Mortal Instruments could have gone more in depth than it did with its themes, but if you are looking for some more meaningful novels, Cassandra Clare's new series The Dark Artifices really fixes this problem. It comments on racism and politics while mirroring it with the state of the world today. Also, many of the main characters are morally ambiguous, extremely well developed, and the novels really make you question the complexity of morality in humans. Just recommending the series if you are looking for some more meaningful, thematic YA novels. They're much more advanced than The Mortal Instruments and one of my favorites!!!
this is much better than the usual stuff you do. but dont think that what you usualy do is bad i like it i simply think this is more interteining and intresting than the usual
I feel like a good example of well-told morality and humanity is Clarke from the 100, in which her decisions are very complicated, sometimes not entirely the right decision and often it's at odds with what other characters consider the 'right' or 'moral'. They then carry on the consequences of those decisions throughout the series and it effects the characters' perceptions of each other in a real way.
This video just earned a sub! Been watching you off and on for a while but this vid was wonderful. Thank you for giving us a glimpse into your beautiful analytical mind 👍
Two months ago I read Asking for it by Louise O'Neil and I still think about it. It's brutal in its exploration of how a community, family and friends react to rape. It's fantastic.
An example I can think of is "Unwind" by Neil Shusterman, especially the first book. It's a dystopian story that deals heavily with personal autonomy and what happens when people manipulate the definition of personhood, and I fully credit it for making me pro-choice among a few other things. Not a fan of the eventual love-triangle (rectangle?) that crops up in later books, but the characters themselves have kept me reading so far.
The Wee Free Men and A Hat Full of Sky are two YA fantasy novels that are FANTASTIC and have very strong messages. I'd recommend them to anyone, any age. They touch on feminism, responsibility, growing up, and other interesting, important stuff.
Just discovered your channel and I just want to say you make wonderful points and that as an author-in-progress (working on my first novel), I think these are all very helpful points.
Yes, you're right. Sarah J. Maas really did improve the morality of ToG series. I've noticed that Sarah likes giving a simple, non-gray morality for her first books. Even the ACOTAR series suffers from this kind of morality but oh boy, in the second book, turns out, the love interest really is abusive and the book acknowledges that. The protagonist keeps on doing questionable actions.
Sandra Hansson I think it's because Sarah uses a form of very gradual and elaborate world building, since it's such deep fantasy. In ToG, the morality is very simple because there's so much that she's setting up, but as the fantasy gets deeper and more complex, so does the morality and the messages. With each layer of world she gives us, there's a new layer of "good, bad, and in-between" to consider and that's why I love her writing so much, because she kind of introduces you piece by piece into this amazing, fantastical world, where you are constantly questioning if what the protagonists are doing is right, and they are asking each other the same questions. (Plus I'm a huge sucker for Celtic based fantasy series-es (and fantasy in general))
I guess basically I'm saying that since in the first books her world is shallow and not fully formed, her sense of morality is just as shallow, and you get to watch the two of them develop together
@@manbatluvr exactly, I don't think it would be fair to judge SJM novels based in the first few books because they're supposed to be looked at as a whole rather than individual books. But, I feel like she failed to do even that with ACOTAR
That is really insightful; it put into words why I've been having trouble finding YA books that I actually enjoy. Just a quibble: Shakespeare's plays that you mentioned were not romances, they were tragedies. But other than that, I agree with everything you said.
Your video is very interesting! I enjoyed it a lot! I agree that lots of books today don't delve deeper into topics they're heading in and you critiqued that really well. I would suggest you continue reading Throne of Glass though, Sarah J Mass later goes a lot into morality and humanity (I have to agree that sometimes her writing seems shallow but there's really good content underneath).
i art books Thanks so much! I don’t think I’m going to continue the throne of glass series though, I really didn’t like the first book and lifes too short.
Where have you learned this stuff about messages in media? I'm interested in it. Also any one who says morality is settled either has no idea about ethical philosophy or is trying to position their moral views as the answer and probably ignoring evidence to the contrary. I wouldn't say that morality is completely open, as there are certain ground rules, but there are also major debates. Very good point about how technology is changing so fast. The book Superintelligence by Nick Bostrom goes in depth on the possibility of creating a smarter then human AI and the problems that could result. It can get technical, but I think it gets to a problem that few people understand. Basically an AI would have completely alien thought processes and the slightest increase in intelligence could be compounded over time.
I think Harry Potter was the last YA series to really mean something. So many are just entertainment that pretend to have a deeper meaning. They can still be good if you just want a story don't get me wrong but it just gets old after awhile Ohh and the Hunger Games was a complete rip off of Battle Royale and for that reason I give it no credit
I'm currently working on a piece which is a bit of a satire on the "noble and rightous" rebellion. As mine takes place before and during the 2nd major revolution in the world. The 1st was a technically good revolution as it ended all the pointless wars the country was fighting and it did seclarise the country, but the leader of the revolution started because most of his family was killed due to the war and he wanted power for him and his family which couldn’t get by "normal" means. Meanwhile the second revolution was just some of the people were previously in power wanting it back, some others that were the dictators supporters which released he did some messed up things to keep power. And the leader is the dictators daughter who would of got into power about a year or 2 later as the dictator was dying of a diease who only allowed himself to be killed because he didn't want to waste away and that he really made her angry from the fact that he made her do a few messed up things(e.i. making her execute someone close to her that was the leader of the counter rebellion) so that she could have a simlar level of control as he does.
What you described is really what explains why I have always been so...I can’t explain it, but...underwhelmed by YA? The best ones are the best for a reason. The Hunger Games is probably the most mature YA book in my opinion, but even that one doesn’t quite “scar you for life” so to speak. It’s for these reasons why I’ve never wanted to write YA. I want to write “fantasy” (sort of) with mature, realistic themes. Not like GOT however. In my opinion, Martin kind of over-did the whole “realistic” fantasy thing to the point where I’m not sure what the overall moral is supposed to be except that humans suck. But honestly even that seems overdone to the point where the whole thing feels like a soap opera. I know he hasn’t finished the story yet, but so far it just seems like a big political drama with a lot of betrayal and murder. It’s not my favorite. I think Lord of the Rings was the most successful fantasy ever written simply because it dealt with the overall issue of good versus evil, but not much else that was unnecessary. Those sort of universal messages are what make the classics so good.
This is more "why a select few mainstream YA titles lack meaning." You'd be hard-pressed to read Libba Bray's "The Diviners" series, for example, and say it lacks meaning. Also, while I do not think I would like The Mortal Instruments if I read it for the first time today, to say that it does not examine humanity with regard to demonic blood is just straight up false. Upon becoming a vampire, Simon immediately considers himself a damned monster, to the point that he starves himself because he believes drinking blood makes him evil. He also struggles to reconcile his vampiric nature with his Jewish faith, and cries when he can't say the name of god. The main Shadowhunter cast are all also massively racist towards downworlders at the start of the series, until Clary and Simon introduce them to human morality, and they start to form meaningful relationships with downworlders. In book two Max, an eight year-old, says "warlocks are bad" as if he's stating a fact that everyone knows. None of his siblings bother to correct him. It is often questioned whether or not Sebastian could have become a good person despite his demonic nature, if he hadn't been raised by Valentine. There is also something to be said for the fact that Shadowhunters take their own humanity for granted, but do not believe the same applies to downworlders, despite the fact that they have just as much non-human blood as downworlders do. Cassandra Clare herself says that Shadowhunters are not human, so this is clearly a deliberate detail in the series. Magnus' whole story is about the affect that immortality has on a person (though most of that is in his own books, rather than TMI itself, I will grant). You specifically mentioned The Mortal Instruments, so I'm trying to avoid referring to the expanded material, but my main example for a point of contention is the short story "Saving Raphael Santiago," in which we learn how Raphael became a vampire. Upon being turned, Raphael immediately considers himself a damned creature of Satan, and tries to commit suicide by throwing himself into a patch of sunlight. Throughout the whole story, Magnus tries to convince Raphael he is still human. He fails. Raphael never stops considering himself damned. But he tortures himself into being able to withstand exposure to holy artefacts so that he can pretend to be human. And while he never again considers himself human, he manages to find a level of acceptance for being a creature of evil.
If sjm had a message later on I couldn't find it except "you should trust your friends unconditionally, even if it conflicts with your personal morals" or maybe "humans aren't interesting, let's get them out of the story as much as possible"
Indeed. I'm sick of books that masquerade as exploring dark and difficult themes but are really just there to peddle godawful teenage romance fantasies.
Hello! Justin Marasigan, here. I'm an up and coming writer and I've written a Young Adult, half Adult Urban Fantasy series based on an almost all Asian American cast. Have you ever considered looking into the Persona series? They're Japanese Role Playing games but they have some of the most interesting cast of Teenagers I've seen xD and they can get meaningful as hell
I'm writing a dystopian story, even though I didn't have that in mind at first. I'm trying to high light some problems related to the corrupt leaders and inequality that creates, but I don't want the society to actually seem exactly that bad, even if it is. Even the protagonist will come to take place in some of the customs, without any disagreements. I don't want it to be black or white, I want it to be grey. And I believe that creates a special meaning on its own in stories I've read. I just don't believe in good or bad or wrong or right in some circumstances
Sounds good. There are stories with 'perfect' kind of societies, that work like clockwork, and although that it absolutely fascinating, it's also less realistic, leaning more to the fantastical side of fiction. Black and white characters can also be extremely compelling, but they are, again, not that true to reality. I'm guessing that if you want to make it easier for people to relate and understand, making a more realistic and believable environment is better. Also allot more interesting to learn about, as you need to add allot of detail and thought to the system.
In Twilight, Edward does say to Bella that he is the world's most dangerous predator and that everything about her draws him in. She doesn't care at all that he is dangerous.
One minute and 17 seconds in I had to pause for a bit. What you talk about--morality and modern age--reminds me of this debate (though it wasn't as intense as it sounds) I had yesterday. It seems like a "trend" now to record nearly everything then share it on social media. It's not just pranks or a couple of friends hanging out. No--we were talking in context of suicide and sexual harassment. Though I appreciate the awareness a lot of people put out after they witness (and record) a case of sexual harassment in public places, it's really weird for me that their first instinct was to pull their phone out and record it. I understand if they didn't dare to scream or do anything to try to stop the perpetrator; people freeze when they're presented with something they're not mentally prepared for. But to be conscious enough to record it? Really? That seems ... fucked up to me. Like you were exploiting the victim for your own desire to get viral and receive likes and shares.
People record the assault so there’s proof that the assault happened. If you’re not confident that you can stop the assaulter it’s sometimes really all you can do(or you can quickly set the camera and then rush to help, that’s also an option)
@@carlottathefriendlyperson7710 I read somewhere that the best way to do these kinds of scenes is through the eye of a character whose moral standard has already been established. So it would be like a character correcting or discussing with one other character about what happened, instead of the character attacking the whole crowd. The same with world building. Show thee world through the eyes of one character and how they interact with that part of the world. Easier said than done though.
One of the showrunners for Game of Thrones said that themes are for eighth grade book reports. Sadly that seems to be a somewhat popular opinion for both writers and readers. Themes are considered boring, pretentious and didactic--not, you know, a fundamental aspect of good storytelling. The dystopian/insurrectionist YA trend is particularly frustrating to me because that genre can be such a rich playground for asking and answering questions about who we are, where we're going, why we fight, etc. But so many of these series are just never really willing to /go there/ and you end up with a story that is vacuous and meaningless.
Great video. Unscripted is fine, but content rich is even better. I'm learning heaps about the YA genre and getting some great pointers through watching your videos (I'm writing YA scifi)
I personally don't think histories need to necesarily have a meaning, if by meaning we understand something like a closed sentence, an answer. Some very good books have no answers. Just the questions. Maybe some differents viewpoints. But not answers. Because a lot of the more interesting questions don't have answers at all. Take ''The portrait of Dorian Gray'' (I absolutely love Wilde) What's the moral learning? Well, none, really. But questions? Now that's another questions. But ultimately, Wilde was simply writing something beautiful (Read Wilde prologue of that book, it's just one page and it's definitely worth the read) Ultimately, what I personally want it's just to give the reader an experience, and have him change with it. But the how, it's up to him. So, I don't agree at that histories should convey a ''clear message''. I prefer to just give the history. The learning, if there's one, is up to the reader. Of course, this doesn't mean I think flat meaningless novels are great, quite the opposite. Also, if you are writing for teens, well, your characters ARE going to be taken as rolemodels. You are, at least partially, responsible about that. Histories whith violence desesitization, normalization of toxic relathionships, etc, are NOT novels for teens (and are also crappy novels generally) But I dont agree with the clear message stuff at all. If so, all of Unamuno's works would be shitty, and he's one of the best writers that have ever lived. Just my opinion, what do you guys think?
Shinwoo K Interesting. I agree. Giving a clear message is a somewhat juvenile expectation. (In the sense of youthful naivety, of course.) It's nice when a book provides that, but is that really challenging the reader in the end? Conveying messages and moral truths is often found in a lot of children's literature both classical and present. Which is great, but the point of that is to teach young children new concepts as well as introduce them to various complexities in life. As one gets older however the teaching style differs. It's sort of like the school experience in a way. In younger years the message is practically given to you by the teacher. As you get older, you are asked to glean the message for yourself, using various techniques to elicit problem solving. And literature is sort of like that. In younger reading levels everything is more black and white, the moral is more clear cut and the specific themes are practically spelled out for you. As the reading levels get higher, however, ambiguity starts to rear its head. You have to figure out what the book is either trying to tell you or interpret for yourself the message or whatever. But like art, books are often kind of like a Rorschach test. How you interpret certain books often says more about you than the book itself. Sometimes a book will leave you asking questions without giving any answers whatsoever. And that is usually a far more engaging and dare I say intellectual experience. Also I'm a big Wilde fan myself. Yay for finding a fellow Wildean!
I try to write seriously, I do. My story does have a dark message, but my writing style isn't like that. I'm naturally comedic and playful when it comes to writing. As I set scenes, it can be dark but as soon as I get into my groove, it lightens up and I don't know what to do about it. Well, I guess it depends on the scene. Some have to be playful and some must be dark but I feel like I'm a horrible writer when I can't be serious and poetic.
Yeah, Throne of Glass gets so much better as it goes on, but I respect your decision not to read on. It's actually one of my favorites, and it goes SO far in depth with that in the 2-5 books.
I definitely agree with the main points of this video, but HP is not YA, it's children's fantasy. I think that shifts my perspective on what YA is meant to do (aka entertain/provide escapism) whereas you are more likely to find meaning in children's books because they are meant to teach something.
You're one of the most critically thinking BookTubers out there. Chapterstackss and FrancinaSimone are also some BookTubers who make quality content. :)
This video was very well written. Just a heads up, from an editing perspective, keep your eyes forward and open when you finish the line, that way it doesn't cut as you're looking down or blinking. Even-though we all know there's a jump cut, the human brain has a funny of seeing the split second of seeing your eye positions change and getting irked by it for whatever reason. Lack of closure, or something. But yes, I definitely agree with a lot of the points made. One of the aspects of YA that draws in new readers is the exploration of identity, and I feel that subject is something that a lot of young people are increasingly struggling with, particularly white kids.
Also, I have been thinking of breaking the fourth wall in a book and having the reader go back to previous pages and having the MC talk directly to the reader. Is this a good idea in your head?
I do agree that a lot of YA lacks depth. I also agree that a lot of adult books lack depth. It depends on the author. Also, Twiligt was like 2003? It kind of was a different time, literature-wise, and it was more for entertainment than a huge message. I've always preferred adult books though, since I was pretty young (now 29)
I love YA books, but I feel like it is a good thing for me to see your point of view about this. I could probably debate some of these things you are saying, but I’m not going to disrespect your opinion, and your view over this.
You amaze some amazing points; I think books like beautiful creature and the ugliest series are good examples of an overly simplistic moral structure and one that is complex with beautiful creatures having a weak good vs bad dichotomy and uglies series exploring the moral ambiguity of humanity as a whole.
i am loving this content!! i don't know much about literature so when a character is flawed and gets hurt but also has some Great Development (and in some cases a Great Redemption arc) and makes me cry, i consider the book to be good. I would strongly recommend you read IN OTHER LANDS by Sarah Rees Brennan. The protagonist has strong beliefs (he's a pacifist in a magical land where humans, mermaids, trolls, harpies and elves are constantly at war (because the humans are sneaky and also cultural differences) but he just wants to solve it by talking! and making treaties!), and i feel that the book conveys the message WAR IS BAD!!!!! well. It also explores bisexuality (get that rep), romantic and sexual and platonic relationships in teenagers, gender roles, and a kid who have major problems due to his dad's fucked up parenting. It doesn't give you the surface like ~haha this boy has daddy issues enjoy this Great Backstory ~ , it addresses his problems. And it hurts so much but it's so good for my soul, I / k n o w / this boy now. Unless some protagonists who are just a blank slate for people to project their own personality onto.
Also could you do a video about the power of perspective in stories. First person, second person and third. The right way you have seen it done and the wrong way it has been done.
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That's actually my goal with my novel. My antagonists are not really evil, my protagonists have flaws. I want to let the reader sympathize with everyone and also disagree with everyone sometimes
Hells Mirror Same
+Hells Mirror I feel like that's gonna be a trope within the next decade or so. So many villains these days are sympathetic it's become almost standard, lol.
It already is a trope. It's boring. Anti-heroes are the trope now too. It's a lot harder to be good in the face of awful circumstances than it is to be "understandably bad."
Ian Connel I find it annoying how trope-ifying can ruin perfectly good concepts.
The idea of good and evil is boring. I dislike the simplicity in it. If your story isn't fairytale-esque and it portrays morality in such childish ways, then it gets a few points off in my book.
I greatly enjoy books with a grey morality! The sad thing is, ever since Game of Thrones got popular, everyone and their mother decided to utilize the concept.
Now the tropes are flipped. Grey is becoming bland while black and white is becoming rare. I hate that.
I think this is everyone's goal. Most writters just never accomplish it because they don't understand the nuances of what defines good vs evil.
The most disappointing thing about Twilight was its wasted premise. The whole conflict about Edward loving Bella but also desiring her blood falls flat, because Bella narrates and she is not afraid of him! If she was afraid of him, she’d genuinely fear for her life while spending time with him, but she’d still desire him and be helpless to resist. That would be awesome!
Finally, someone else who was disappointed by The Mortal Instruments. I've heard that The Infernal Devices are better. I write about angel-human hybrids fighting demons myself, and I've tried to explore the dynamics between demi-angels, angels, demons, and humans.
Yes!! So many of the novels I read have amazing premises that fall flat and it makes me so sad!
Do you have anything that I'd be able to read?
Yes! Shadowbook and Those Who Fly by yours truly! www.shadowbook.pub www.thosewhofly.pub
Okay, I apologize for the shameless self-advertising. TWF needs some serious revision anyway.
I just finished reading "The Night Circus" by Erin Morgenstern and I was extremely impressed by it. It's not technically a YA book, but it takes every trope and does it RIGHT. It is so beautifully written. Technically, it has the same premise as The Hunger Games-- boy and girl are locked in a competition in which only one may survive, but they fall in love. None of the romance scenes felt contrived, though, and they weren't angsty in any way. The book really is about this ethereal circus, only open at night. I thought it was a masterpiece.
I've become a big fan of Neil Gaiman lately. Stardust was my favorite book by him, but I also enjoyed Coraline, Sandman, and Good Omens (with Terry Prachett). I plan to read American Gods and Neverwhere next.
An interesting and original series is the Fairyland series by Cathrynne M. Valente, beginning with The Girl who Circumnavigated Fairyland in a Ship of her Own Making. It's technically a children's series, but it has all the quirkiness of Alice in Wonderland and twists fairy tale tropes into knots.
thanks for sharing, I'll check them out if I have a chance! :) And thanks for those recommendations!!
Nyx Shadowhawk I personally think that if Twilight explored the concept of people with a dangerous impulse (vampires with blood) wanting to suppress that impulse in the name of morality and asked whether they should be accepted while confronting the inherent risk there would be to actually accepting them, it could've been much more interesting.
Nyx Shadowhawk Dude Neil Gaiman is amazing.
I remember lots of details from the Harry Potter series like the quidditch matches, the dursley family, etc. Yet I can't remember a single detail from the Twilight books other than Bella almost got hit by a car. Speaks volumes about the meaning of these books.
As an aspiring author, I'm hoping my work-in-progress novel will be able to tell a great story with great characters and themes for readers (Prejudice, existentialism, all that fun schtuff.). Granted, mine is new adult, though my greatest fear is it ending up as wasted potential such as Twilight.
Unicorn of War I sincerely hope that it works out for you! Just keep doing research and striving for quality and I'm sure it'll be great.
did you finish your book? :)
I want deep and meaningful stories, I also want stories that are just fluff and fun to spend my time, but above all, I want well written stories.
Going into this, I thought you were coming from a place of hatred for YA in general, but I actually got the sense that you really like reading YA, but see flaws within certain pieces of writing. I enjoyed this type of video. ^^
I agree with you, however, I don't *want* to read stories with meaning ALL the time. Reading Twilight is relaxing when you take it for what it is: an unrealistic fluffy fantasy of a plain girl who likes control and magically finds a super hot rich guy who controls her in perfect ways she likes. I mean, sure, I cry rivers with novels like Les Miserables, and I think about them for ages, but sometimes I'm so done with reality I just want to read something silly and cute, so I'm thankful for these YA stories (and fanfic of course).
Good vid - I also really liked Hunger Games, mainly for the way it reflected both Ancient Roman and modern society, complete with ridicule of one of my own pet peeves - 'reality' TV! Good example of moral message.
For sure, the Hunger Games did a lot of things right!
i got into the books first, love The Hunger Games too,
As a middle school reading teacher, I can honestly say that you are spot on in your assessment of the average YA novel. I would say more, but you laid out everything perfectly. Thank you!
Thank you! I'm so glad you enjoyed the video.
As a teacher, have you ever thought of using David Eddings in your classes? I was in grade school when my dad put those in my hands and it started a long and happy life of reading for me. I always wondered why teachers never used his work. They are perfectly appropriate for children. There is nothing vulgar or obscene in his Belgariad or Mallorean series.
I have never heard of David Eddings. I'll have to look him up. Thanks.
I saw a picture of Harry Potter grouped together in the thumbnail and I came to defend my boy lol
Although I'm a little bummed you didn't mention Dumbledore...
Lack of meaning is usually the appeal of mainstream media because people want to watch something fun and entertaining without much thought to it, which is perfectly fine, but since that's what sells that's what's marketed and force-fed to us the most. There's plenty of really eye-opening, thought-provoking stuff out there, but it seems like you have to dig through pile after pile of shallow movies/books/series to find them, which I guess is why pop culture and whatnot has such a bad rep to it, too.
In a nutshell: 'tis a sad life.
Thats the struggle I face in my writing
I try to be deep and insightful but through writing I wonder if that would even apply to pop culture
If it's a book u really have to think about maybe it wouldn't make it that far.. it would become one of those books you really have to dig for
So I've started to make it a bit more simple for the masses but I worry I might be oversimplifying for ppl who seek mental stimulation
I've also decided that maybe I should keep a surface level meaning for who doesn't care to delve deeper.. Not make the ultimate plot a whole workout
So u get a surface level understanding
But still if one would want to pull it apart and delve into motivations and character drive, itz all there
So as a result I've thought then maybe since my book has 17 yr protagonists, maybe it's a Ya
But it requires alot more thought than avg Ya so I decided it's more in line with a Na.. there is nothing racey in there so I feel like adult readers would be disappointed if I call it adult
Even though I really enjoyed the Mortal Instruments, I'm with you in that they're not particularly deep or thoughtful books. They missed many interesting topics: the morality of child soldiers, post traumatic stress from fighting the literal armies of hell, religious subjectivity and how your lineage and ascendance define you. The last one was a particularly big missed opportunity, not only because many characters are direct descendants from demons and villains, but also because how big of a deal it was in the first three books. It was sort of talked about with Magnus Bane and his Great Demon father, but the only character really developed in this context was Sebastian (and even then about the kind of man who he could have been, and the fact that he never had any choice on the matter). He is amongst my favorite villains ever, but for his complexity or relatability, given that he's 100% pure evil
I think books can be memorable without making statements about humanity, I think it's more important to convey feelings
Jewel Sims They can be, for sure! I just think they'll have a lot harder time leaving an impression if they don't. I also think that most stories that make us feel strong emotions have at least subtle commentary on humanity or the human condition.
Well, I also think that the occasional book that is just plain fun is good too. However, I would put that at the bottom of the list of the most important purposes for a book. I also can’t see why it can’t sometimes do all three of these things.
I mean, maybe the story doesn’t have anything to do with humanity. Maybe it has to do with a person’s concept of what family is, or how they should treat other people, or how to see something more positively. Maybe it has to do with the extent someone should deal with people’e bs before they should put their foot down. Maybe it deals with why people act a certain way, and how a conversation they have or a sentence they say can mean so much more or have so much more history than the words said on the surface. But I guess incorporating the idea of what is humane and what isn’t could really enrich the plot. The point is to give insight and to offer a different outlook on things, isn’t it? As long as they succeed with that, they’ve sent their message. You have to know what kind of message you want to send to your readers when you write a book. The trick is actually being able to deliver it.
Savannah Knutson You are still defining humanity.
Wow! This is your best video! Thank you for sharing!
Rebecca Vaughn Thank you so much!! I'm so glad you enjoyed it!
Also, some YA novels that deal with humanity and morality very well are The Dark Days Club books, The Grisha Trilogy, and The Winner's Trilogy.
Dani L. Thanks! I love getting recommendations so I'll definitely look into those :)
I'd also say Turtles All The Way Down, it's not fantasy but it's one of the most hard hitting novels
I'm reading a curse so dark and lonely rn and I think it's good for a YA in going into the drive for characters
I loved this video! A fantastic example of a 'weak' character who still holds a strong set of beliefs is Winston Smith from George Orwell's 1984. The book, his character, and everything between are some of the best examples of dystopia done absolutely and almost terrifyingly right.
YES
I have to disagree a little with the premise that a story has to have a moral or examine humanity to be good, have longevity, or be worthy of thought. My first example being that of Final Fantasy XIII. The video game world pretty much universally dubs this game one of the worst of its generation. However the story it tells does a lot to examine humanity and specifically its relationship to nature and religion. The problem that this story runs into is that there is a lack of focus. We barely know our own main cast, the world they live in, or the terminology of their universe by the time we are really supposed to care about them and what they are going through. I don't really care to think about the game and barely remember most of it despite this Nature vs Religion relationship that the narrative tries to tell.
My second example being a title from your neck of the woods (YA Fiction) being the Darkest Minds. It might be able to be said that this books series looks at the human condition in the face of adversity and learning the importance of family and that it isn't only the people whose blood your share. But these aren't exactly hard hitting or even all that thought provoking of ideas. However this book series consumed my thoughts for months after I finished reading it for the fifth time. There really isn't much to think about besides the status of the in-story universe itself and the fate of the characters. Yet, I was also completely satisfied once it was done and could only say that I wanted more because I didn't want to be out of stuff to read from this universe and not because it felt incomplete or hollow.
Thirdly I would point out the TV show Psych (and most comedies in general). The nature of comedy is that it entertains you. However, I became so immersed in the concept of Psych (a man pretending to be psychic and solving crimes as a consult for the Santa Barbara Police Department) that it too made me obsess over its existence for years.
So here is my thing... I don't think that there is anything wrong with being without a moral or examination of humanity. I also don't think that every story HAS to make you think in order to be good or have longevity.This is primarily because I also don't believe that lacking these things removes the ability for them to have 'meaning.' Don't get me wrong, I think that there is a lot to be liked in stories that do have those things and that they absolutely have place in the world, but I just think that it is a bit short sighted to try to elevate them above anything else when they are just different category of entertainment.
well said, I was always so frustrated with ff8, bevause i felt so much potentioal was lost, and focus was put in the wrong places
I like watching your videos because this is really helping me in where I’m stuck with my book. I want it to have meaning, but I don’t just want to send it out into the world like a ship on fire
I've been binge watching your videos because you make the content I want to see on booktube!
Claire Guthrie Thank you!!!
Love this! It's so hard to find a critical look at YA on youtube, since it's generally the focus of most booktubers' channels. But there's a lot lacking in the genre, especially recently. Though there's nothing wrong with adult YA readers, we have to acknowledge the genre in geared to and draws in a crowd of young people who's perspective on literature (and maybe even society) is shaped by these books. When you take away meaning from these novels, all the audience is left to take in is flat plot, and the raw characters dynamics. Kids don't tend to read with a critical lens, and often end up idolizing characters/relationships that they shouldn't be internalizing (and wouldn't have to if there were more substance). When those characters represent horrible lessons about society like the "not like other girls" trope, emotional destructive or codependent relationships, flawless protagonists, etc, those are pretty scary thing for young teens to be learning. Strangely, middle grade (like Harry Potter) doesn't seem to suffer from this as much. Some of the most meaningful novels I've ever read have been middle grade- probably because they don't feel the need to make everything dramatic, fast, and sexy to appeal to teenagers, and can take the time to create stories that will matter to their young audience. All in all, the genre seems to have become a race to write the next Hunger Games, Divergent, or MI that'll cultivate a huge, undying fanbase. In the process, authors lose sight of what their writing means and who it's for.
I like my books like my movies, entertaining. If it was all preachy and meaningful but boring or frustrating, I wouldn't like it, so I tend to like books that are, you know, entertaining first. Very good video though and I do enjoy when a work gives us something to think about. :)
WarLord Era Oh definitely, but the best works are both!
This is such a well thought out and well put together video. I'm working on a novel right now, and I really got something valuable from this. I want my characters to exhibit how good and bad are very blended, and not exactly as black and white we as a society pretend it is. My two main characters do things that would be considered "bad", however they both are in horrible situations that could potentially make any "good" person do the same bad things that they do. I want to highlight human nature in its real form, not just good and bad, because we are so much more than that. Anyways, just wanted to share! The way this highlighted the pitfalls and also high points of YA really helped me to see where I want my own project to go!
I hope that, when I will publish my first book, you will already become a popular youtuber in the BookTube community. I like you voice and way of thinking. I'm not a fan of YA novels, but you kind of showed what I can add to my novel to make the message behind it more powerful. Thank you!! You have a new subscriber!
I totally agree. YA does lack aspects of connotations relating to our everyday society, moreover, I also read for the story and character. The story needs to have depth and needs to be intriguing. Many say characters need to be relatable, I disagree. There are more than 6 billion people on this earth, we cant always make characters relatable, but they need to be interesting. Books shouldn't be based on feelings but should be relatable to this society which is indoctrinated with so much, as you said with technology, for example.
(btw this is not directly at you jordan, i was just expressing my views lol.)
Fantastic analysis video, I totally agree with you. I don’t enjoyed many YA novels but that’s not for lack of trying them. Ever since being totally shocked at how barebones, boring and unlikeable Twilight was, I’ve avoided YA + Vampires. Recently for Booktube-a-thon I was recommended by a friend to read; “The Immortal Rules” by Julie Kagawa, and I think this novel did everything right that Twilight did wrong. Morality and Humanity are major themes and because of that I was pleasantly surprised how much I ended up enjoying it.
It honestly makes me sad how popular Twilight is. There seems to be an absolute plethora of Twilight clones out there. I recently had some experience with many adult women raving about these superficial vampire novels. some of them are nothing more than softcore porn with vampires and a few other fantasy or supernatural characters. Some of these women actually thought the YA authors invented some of these characters. None of them have ever picked up a real fantasy novel and have no interest in. I never did the YA thing. My dad was always a huge fantasy fan and he had a huge collection waiting as soon as I could read. I consider myself fortunate. Some people consider David Eddings "YA" but it is nothing like the garbage considered "YA" now.
The funny thing is that Edward brought up a lot of occasions where he was like “yo, fuck off, we’re gonna kill you” and “we literally aren’t human or moral” and Bella goes “but you’re pretty so we’re gonna ignore that”. I just think Stephanie was almost too lazy to explore these ideas deeper. (Even though I kinda love Twilight bc it’s like reading somebody’s dream (which it is, Stephanie literally dreamt it)
I am convinced she had read Vampire Diaries before she made Twilight too. Vampire diaries were created in the early 90s -the covers were just revamped in the 2000s- by LJ Smith and there are a ton of similarities between Edward and Stefan
I so agree with you. The hunger games was what drew me into YA because I couldn't stop thinking about the messages after putting it down. I was left kind of disappointed when I read other series and books (with some exceptions). They were fun and occasionally well-written, but few of them managed to give me the feeling that I loved: of learning and growing as I read and changing my way of thinking for the rest of my life. Lately I have seen a trend of books with a political message (against homophobia or racism or you name it) and I appreciate that a lot, but they're often too surface-level to really light a spark for me.
Hey! You’re my favorite book reviewer (if that’s a term!) I just love how intelligent your analysis is! Thanks a ton!
Thank you! That's very kind of you to say :)
Wow literally has been my struggle with YA but I haven't been able to put it into words like this.
Great vid Jordan, I really like the looking under the hood of story-telling. A message, or a theme seems integral to having a story that people will think about long afterwards.
Hayley ^_^
This video was great! I think you managed to point out the reason I haven't read many YA books recently.
this was very eye opening. dont worry. once u get the hang of it, u can do scripted videos and ppl wont be able to tell theyre scripted (MOST videos on youtube are scripted and as much as that annoys me, it makes those channels more money to have their videos seem naturalistic even though they're actually looking at a script.)
Yeah, I know it's a tad rough, but I think my more recent videos, which are a combination of scripted and non-scripted are a bit better. I just think that for analysis videos, it's important to have it thought-out and researched prior to me filming. I know that I'll be able to get my points across more efficiently if there's an outline beforehand!
yeah thats how it is for me. i would script then not read it cuz that can be robotic. but now i dont even script lol so my vids are terrible.
KreativeKill I prefer the scripted videos. The unscripted ones tend to get long and rambling and I lose interest. Yes, you can tell that’s she’s reading from a script in this video but the points she’s making are so interesting that I don’t even care. She did a great job 👍🏾
I love listening to your videos while I do work around the house. They’re like video podcasts, and they really make me think. I’m currently listening to this while rearranging my bookshelf. Love your channel!
captain afghanistan Thank you SO MUCH!! That’s so sweet.
I enjoyed this video. I have also had a hard time with stories that do not really say anything. It is not because we want entertainment to be preachy but at its base, a good story has a message that causes readers to think.
Thank you, you have a new subscriber.
I think that one of my favorite YA has a lot of theming on someone that rarely gets explored: Abusive family dynamics. Val is cold, controlling, and manipulative, but she's all Veronyka has had, as they've moved around a lot. Without spoiling it, she did something inexcusable to Veronyka and this ends up changing thejr relationships for the rest of the series.
I have no Problem with a clear good and bad in books. Sometimes people are really just evil. Even in Real life. And other people are good.
One YA book series that I think dealt with morality and humanity really well was the Unwind series (technically this series falls under middle school fiction, but oh well). The book series really makes the reader question where life really begins and ends, what truly makes us human, and what the limitations of scientific advancement should be. Plus it's set in a terrifyingly realistic future.
Chilea Kashé huh, it sounds really interesting! I’ll look into it for sure :)
That was a great video
TheQndi Thank you! I definitely will :)
I will never shut up about the *Spellslinger series by Sebastien De Castell* . The intricate wordlbuilding and constant action only help the reader further explore morality, authority, historical awareness, identity and ultimately human purpose. It is the best YA series I've read, and my heart will forever go out to it because at 16, it was exactly what I needed, and I really do believe it changed me as a person.
A while ago I had my first-ever encounter with a wacky, sly landlord. Even in trying to find my way out of it, certain quotes and scenes from the books crossed my mind as a moral guide. So yeah. I'd say they are good.
I know this video is sorta old but yes this is one of the many goals for my series. I want to question what's good & what's bad & how perception plays a role in it.
I fight that idea in my novel where I have my protagonist question this many times.
Also, yes about the immortal instruments...My novel is also about Half-angels fighting demons (as well as hybrids). I want my series to look at the dynamics of what is good & what is bad & why it is. Because not everything is so black & white. There's always a middle. Thank you again for this video!
ive always had a problem with ya fiction and i could never quite pinpoint what it was but you just managed to hit the nail on the head so kudos to you :D
This scripted version shows great analysis rather than just basic commentary that we see in a lot of RUclips videos. Great job, please keep it up !!!!
I love your videos. So well thought through and true. Thank you
Thank you!!
My biggest question is for you and other readers of YA. Why don't you explore adult novels since it doesn't suffer the lack of meaning and the simplicity of YA. Why don't people just read adult novels. Some young readers may think it's is boring, too complicated or the adult characters will not connect with them. It is not true, adult novels will surprise you of how good and exciting they are, so much that you don't need to waste your money on poorly written books for teens. Let's face it, the YA " genre" is just sea of bad books with some miracle novels here and there that have meaning, plot, characters good enough to discuss. We know why this is happening. It's because people still buy it. Same with movies if something sells then we got alot of it and quality goes down. Discussions and comments are fine but they won't change much. The only way you can change the market is by using your money wisely and only paying for quality books.
Not just adult books but children’s books too! Classic children’s books can be surprisingly deep ! Books like The Little Prince, Momo, A Wrinkle in Time, Anne of Green Gables, The Phantom Tollbooth, stories by CS Lewis, AA Milne, Neil Gaiman, Phillip Pullman,Lewis Carol etc. (bias here they’re all my favourites haha) contain pretty interesting topics and can be very beautiful. It feels like children’s lit has a lot of room to be beautiful while talking about some pretty deep and clever stuff. Some of the most heart wrenching and beautiful books I’ve read have been geared towards children. And that’s counting picture books! Picture books are their own form of art in both story and illustrations and it makes me sad that adults get scared away from reading them.... It’s incredible what some authors write for little ones!
Why give teens crappy books when children’s and adult’s books are given so much space to be good! Gyaahhh! If I want some light but also beautiful books, I go for some comforting kids lit! ( and like with anything, there are some bad ones ...)
Yes, there is a sea of bad YA books out there. Of authors trying to ride the coattails of the successful, deeply thought out YA books we've seen. But the genre is far from needing to be abandoned all together. There is a type of YA novels that get pushed into the limelight, so people think that's all there is to the genre. In reality, there are quite a few great ones out there if you go beyond the scope of vampire romances and the like.
The Chaos Walking series by Patrick Ness deals with the kinds of questions some adult fiction struggles to explore, like colonization and it's darker side, it's backlashes. The kind of horrors that human fear can accomplish, and the societal and psychological effect of everyone being able to hear everyone else's thoughts. Then you have Sabriel by Garth Nix. While this book is labeled as a fantasy novel, it still fits in YA. The MC has just barely turned 18 when the book starts (and the sequels follow even younger MCs), and this series deals with all kinds of deep stuff. With a very strong message that even the most evil monsters out there once started out as human. Then, through a series of bad choices, they became something utterly horrible. Something that couldn't even be considered human anymore. Couple that with the message that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and you've got a pretty fantastic set of books. I could keep listing more of these, one after the other, and never run out of examples.
Point is, people assume YA means some form of teen romance and angst with some other fantastical setting or plot point thrown in. But that group is only a very tiny part of the whole genre. So people should stop buying this romantic trash they're pumping and dumping (hoping for another Twilight level success) and start looking at all the dozens of other sub-genres YA has to offer. If people go long enough without buying those types of books, they'll be forced to produce better romance YA. But yeah, it's not a problem with the entire genre. It's a problem with the sub-genre of romance.
? Adult novels *do* suffer from lack of meaning and can be extremely simplistic. The main thing I like about contemporary YA is the exploration of deep feelings that I don't get from contemporary adult novels. I'm reading The Girl on the Train ATM, which is an interesting character study of morally ambiguous people, but I'm missing the feelings I get from reading YA.
Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Harry Potter will never be matched with its complexity and character development and overall world building. I attempted Divergent and DNF. After I read 50 shades of shifty writing and was told it was a knock off of twilight my will to ever read a YA book ceased. I dont understand grown people reading these YA books. I'll stay will my Game of Thrones and Lord of the rings.
WrinkleinTime42 I agree. Children’s books I would highly recommend are Patrick Ness’ “The knife of never letting go” and “A monster calls”. The Giver is also great (Felt some Murakami vibes from it as it seems somewhat similar to some parts of hard boiled wonderland and the end of the world)
As for books for older audiences, I recommend a book called “Burung-Burung Manyar” by YB Mangunwijaya (Translated to English as “The Weaverbirds”). Its a coming of age story set in colonial Indonesia and tells the tale of a boy and a girl as they take different paths through life and the struggles they go through.
I just recently read Rot and Ruin by Jonathan Maberry . It was amazing, it talked a lot about humanity and morality. Was something that I didn’t expect and your right it’s a lot easier to remember the story when it has a strong message. Great video!
Your analysis of TMI is so on point. There's so much to explore with the shadowhunter vs downworlder dynamic. It's clear some shadowhunters are very prejudiced against downworlders, but the author doesn't really dive into that aspect of the story in detail. The TV show does a better job with it, even having characters that are good people have prejudices and grow to learn they were wrong. It still has all the plot twists, but there's a lot more substance with the prejudice of shadowhunters better explored.
You're making a better BookTube. And, probably, future authors will create better fantasy/YA novels. Thank you for your work!!
You're so sweet. Thank you!
I'd recommend a Japanese visual novel by the name, 'Umineko no naku koro ni' written by Ryukishi07. In my opinion, its an excellent novel that encapsulates different aspects of the human condition through a mystery/supernatural lens.
I love your videos. I've watched a dozen of them already, and I only just discovered your amazing content a couple days ago! You've given me some great ideas on things I know I need to fix in my books! Thanks! You are awesome!
DancesWithMonkeys Thanks so much!! I’m so glad you’ve found some of them helpful! :) That’s honestly so nice to hear.
They have all been helpful! I would say these are more useful than most (if not all) of the panels I’ve gone to at writer conventions.
I have so many tabs of your videos open right now, I’ll be surprised if my computer doesn’t crash, haha! ’_’;
I started with one of your book review videos, and it’s so refreshing to finally hear reviews that mirror my own thoughts/impressions in so many ways. I don’t mean that in a, “I just want validation” way, but it’s great to see people who want or expect similar things out of books and characters. And you make so many great points, and articulate everything so masterfully! It’s so helpful to hear these things said out loud, and said so well!:-)
Thank you for making these!
DancesWithMonkeys Ahh you’re so sweet! This made my day :)
Again another very well spoken and thought out video. I love it
Thank you!
The Throne Of Glass doesn’t get better. Trust me. I’ve read the first three books and they are so slow progressing and even more about Romance. Now she does find herself more in the third book but the book itself is the slowest thing ever.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this video! These are exactly the same problems I had with books mentioned! I'm glad somebody has the same opinion and conveys it so eloquently and fearlessly. It seems like the most important thing in majority of these types of novels is the main character(s) being spoilt, arogant little badass :-(
I really liked this video and you hit the nail with a lot of these books. I do think that the Mortal Instruments could have gone more in depth than it did with its themes, but if you are looking for some more meaningful novels, Cassandra Clare's new series The Dark Artifices really fixes this problem. It comments on racism and politics while mirroring it with the state of the world today. Also, many of the main characters are morally ambiguous, extremely well developed, and the novels really make you question the complexity of morality in humans. Just recommending the series if you are looking for some more meaningful, thematic YA novels. They're much more advanced than The Mortal Instruments and one of my favorites!!!
Natascha Holenstein Thanks so much for the recommendation and for checking out the video! :D
this is much better than the usual stuff you do. but dont think that what you usualy do is bad i like it i simply think this is more interteining and intresting than the usual
I feel like a good example of well-told morality and humanity is Clarke from the 100, in which her decisions are very complicated, sometimes not entirely the right decision and often it's at odds with what other characters consider the 'right' or 'moral'. They then carry on the consequences of those decisions throughout the series and it effects the characters' perceptions of each other in a real way.
This video just earned a sub! Been watching you off and on for a while but this vid was wonderful. Thank you for giving us a glimpse into your beautiful analytical mind 👍
This is an awesome video! And I totally agree. Well done, you have a new subscriber!
Katie TheNInja thanks so much!
Two months ago I read Asking for it by Louise O'Neil and I still think about it. It's brutal in its exploration of how a community, family and friends react to rape. It's fantastic.
An example I can think of is "Unwind" by Neil Shusterman, especially the first book. It's a dystopian story that deals heavily with personal autonomy and what happens when people manipulate the definition of personhood, and I fully credit it for making me pro-choice among a few other things. Not a fan of the eventual love-triangle (rectangle?) that crops up in later books, but the characters themselves have kept me reading so far.
The Wee Free Men and A Hat Full of Sky are two YA fantasy novels that are FANTASTIC and have very strong messages. I'd recommend them to anyone, any age.
They touch on feminism, responsibility, growing up, and other interesting, important stuff.
Just discovered your channel and I just want to say you make wonderful points and that as an author-in-progress (working on my first novel), I think these are all very helpful points.
Amethyst Lee I’m so glad! Thank you :)
Yes, you're right. Sarah J. Maas really did improve the morality of ToG series.
I've noticed that Sarah likes giving a simple, non-gray morality for her first books. Even the ACOTAR series suffers from this kind of morality but oh boy, in the second book, turns out, the love interest really is abusive and the book acknowledges that. The protagonist keeps on doing questionable actions.
Sandra Hansson I think it's because Sarah uses a form of very gradual and elaborate world building, since it's such deep fantasy. In ToG, the morality is very simple because there's so much that she's setting up, but as the fantasy gets deeper and more complex, so does the morality and the messages. With each layer of world she gives us, there's a new layer of "good, bad, and in-between" to consider and that's why I love her writing so much, because she kind of introduces you piece by piece into this amazing, fantastical world, where you are constantly questioning if what the protagonists are doing is right, and they are asking each other the same questions. (Plus I'm a huge sucker for Celtic based fantasy series-es (and fantasy in general))
I guess basically I'm saying that since in the first books her world is shallow and not fully formed, her sense of morality is just as shallow, and you get to watch the two of them develop together
@@manbatluvr exactly, I don't think it would be fair to judge SJM novels based in the first few books because they're supposed to be looked at as a whole rather than individual books. But, I feel like she failed to do even that with ACOTAR
That is really insightful; it put into words why I've been having trouble finding YA books that I actually enjoy. Just a quibble: Shakespeare's plays that you mentioned were not romances, they were tragedies. But other than that, I agree with everything you said.
I know, I'm sorry! I just associate Romeo and Juliet with romance and the other two just popped out.
I follow you because you help me grow mentally. Do more videos like this. Please.
For sure! Thank you!!
Your video is very interesting! I enjoyed it a lot! I agree that lots of books today don't delve deeper into topics they're heading in and you critiqued that really well. I would suggest you continue reading Throne of Glass though, Sarah J Mass later goes a lot into morality and humanity (I have to agree that sometimes her writing seems shallow but there's really good content underneath).
i art books Thanks so much! I don’t think I’m going to continue the throne of glass series though, I really didn’t like the first book and lifes too short.
This was awesome I’m subscribing!
Where have you learned this stuff about messages in media? I'm interested in it. Also any one who says morality is settled either has no idea about ethical philosophy or is trying to position their moral views as the answer and probably ignoring evidence to the contrary. I wouldn't say that morality is completely open, as there are certain ground rules, but there are also major debates. Very good point about how technology is changing so fast. The book Superintelligence by Nick Bostrom goes in depth on the possibility of creating a smarter then human AI and the problems that could result. It can get technical, but I think it gets to a problem that few people understand. Basically an AI would have completely alien thought processes and the slightest increase in intelligence could be compounded over time.
I think Harry Potter was the last YA series to really mean something. So many are just entertainment that pretend to have a deeper meaning. They can still be good if you just want a story don't get me wrong but it just gets old after awhile
Ohh and the Hunger Games was a complete rip off of Battle Royale and for that reason I give it no credit
I liked how you explained how “Twilight” could have been better.
I'm currently working on a piece which is a bit of a satire on the "noble and rightous" rebellion. As mine takes place before and during the 2nd major revolution in the world. The 1st was a technically good revolution as it ended all the pointless wars the country was fighting and it did seclarise the country, but the leader of the revolution started because most of his family was killed due to the war and he wanted power for him and his family which couldn’t get by "normal" means. Meanwhile the second revolution was just some of the people were previously in power wanting it back, some others that were the dictators supporters which released he did some messed up things to keep power. And the leader is the dictators daughter who would of got into power about a year or 2 later as the dictator was dying of a diease who only allowed himself to be killed because he didn't want to waste away and that he really made her angry from the fact that he made her do a few messed up things(e.i. making her execute someone close to her that was the leader of the counter rebellion) so that she could have a simlar level of control as he does.
What you described is really what explains why I have always been so...I can’t explain it, but...underwhelmed by YA? The best ones are the best for a reason. The Hunger Games is probably the most mature YA book in my opinion, but even that one doesn’t quite “scar you for life” so to speak. It’s for these reasons why I’ve never wanted to write YA. I want to write “fantasy” (sort of) with mature, realistic themes. Not like GOT however. In my opinion, Martin kind of over-did the whole “realistic” fantasy thing to the point where I’m not sure what the overall moral is supposed to be except that humans suck. But honestly even that seems overdone to the point where the whole thing feels like a soap opera. I know he hasn’t finished the story yet, but so far it just seems like a big political drama with a lot of betrayal and murder. It’s not my favorite. I think Lord of the Rings was the most successful fantasy ever written simply because it dealt with the overall issue of good versus evil, but not much else that was unnecessary. Those sort of universal messages are what make the classics so good.
This is more "why a select few mainstream YA titles lack meaning." You'd be hard-pressed to read Libba Bray's "The Diviners" series, for example, and say it lacks meaning.
Also, while I do not think I would like The Mortal Instruments if I read it for the first time today, to say that it does not examine humanity with regard to demonic blood is just straight up false. Upon becoming a vampire, Simon immediately considers himself a damned monster, to the point that he starves himself because he believes drinking blood makes him evil. He also struggles to reconcile his vampiric nature with his Jewish faith, and cries when he can't say the name of god. The main Shadowhunter cast are all also massively racist towards downworlders at the start of the series, until Clary and Simon introduce them to human morality, and they start to form meaningful relationships with downworlders. In book two Max, an eight year-old, says "warlocks are bad" as if he's stating a fact that everyone knows. None of his siblings bother to correct him. It is often questioned whether or not Sebastian could have become a good person despite his demonic nature, if he hadn't been raised by Valentine. There is also something to be said for the fact that Shadowhunters take their own humanity for granted, but do not believe the same applies to downworlders, despite the fact that they have just as much non-human blood as downworlders do. Cassandra Clare herself says that Shadowhunters are not human, so this is clearly a deliberate detail in the series. Magnus' whole story is about the affect that immortality has on a person (though most of that is in his own books, rather than TMI itself, I will grant).
You specifically mentioned The Mortal Instruments, so I'm trying to avoid referring to the expanded material, but my main example for a point of contention is the short story "Saving Raphael Santiago," in which we learn how Raphael became a vampire. Upon being turned, Raphael immediately considers himself a damned creature of Satan, and tries to commit suicide by throwing himself into a patch of sunlight. Throughout the whole story, Magnus tries to convince Raphael he is still human. He fails. Raphael never stops considering himself damned. But he tortures himself into being able to withstand exposure to holy artefacts so that he can pretend to be human. And while he never again considers himself human, he manages to find a level of acceptance for being a creature of evil.
If sjm had a message later on I couldn't find it except "you should trust your friends unconditionally, even if it conflicts with your personal morals" or maybe "humans aren't interesting, let's get them out of the story as much as possible"
Indeed. I'm sick of books that masquerade as exploring dark and difficult themes but are really just there to peddle godawful teenage romance fantasies.
Yes! That's honestly so annoying.
Hello! Justin Marasigan, here.
I'm an up and coming writer and I've written a Young Adult, half Adult Urban Fantasy series based on an almost all Asian American cast. Have you ever considered looking into the Persona series? They're Japanese Role Playing games but they have some of the most interesting cast of Teenagers I've seen xD and they can get meaningful as hell
I'm writing a dystopian story, even though I didn't have that in mind at first. I'm trying to high light some problems related to the corrupt leaders and inequality that creates, but I don't want the society to actually seem exactly that bad, even if it is. Even the protagonist will come to take place in some of the customs, without any disagreements. I don't want it to be black or white, I want it to be grey.
And I believe that creates a special meaning on its own in stories I've read. I just don't believe in good or bad or wrong or right in some circumstances
Sounds good. There are stories with 'perfect' kind of societies, that work like clockwork, and although that it absolutely fascinating, it's also less realistic, leaning more to the fantastical side of fiction. Black and white characters can also be extremely compelling, but they are, again, not that true to reality. I'm guessing that if you want to make it easier for people to relate and understand, making a more realistic and believable environment is better. Also allot more interesting to learn about, as you need to add allot of detail and thought to the system.
In Twilight,
Edward does say to Bella that he is the world's most dangerous predator and that everything about her draws him in. She doesn't care at all that he is dangerous.
An amazing example of morality and humanity in YA is the Unwind series by Neil Shusterman.
Amelia EverythingBabyNames That’s what I’ve heard!
Jordan, read the first one! I think you would really enjoy it!
One minute and 17 seconds in I had to pause for a bit. What you talk about--morality and modern age--reminds me of this debate (though it wasn't as intense as it sounds) I had yesterday. It seems like a "trend" now to record nearly everything then share it on social media. It's not just pranks or a couple of friends hanging out. No--we were talking in context of suicide and sexual harassment. Though I appreciate the awareness a lot of people put out after they witness (and record) a case of sexual harassment in public places, it's really weird for me that their first instinct was to pull their phone out and record it. I understand if they didn't dare to scream or do anything to try to stop the perpetrator; people freeze when they're presented with something they're not mentally prepared for. But to be conscious enough to record it? Really? That seems ... fucked up to me. Like you were exploiting the victim for your own desire to get viral and receive likes and shares.
Carlotta TheFriendlyPerson you mean The Hunger Games?
People record the assault so there’s proof that the assault happened. If you’re not confident that you can stop the assaulter it’s sometimes really all you can do(or you can quickly set the camera and then rush to help, that’s also an option)
@@carlottathefriendlyperson7710 I read somewhere that the best way to do these kinds of scenes is through the eye of a character whose moral standard has already been established. So it would be like a character correcting or discussing with one other character about what happened, instead of the character attacking the whole crowd.
The same with world building. Show thee world through the eyes of one character and how they interact with that part of the world.
Easier said than done though.
Preach it! So called art without meaning is not art at all.
One of the showrunners for Game of Thrones said that themes are for eighth grade book reports. Sadly that seems to be a somewhat popular opinion for both writers and readers. Themes are considered boring, pretentious and didactic--not, you know, a fundamental aspect of good storytelling.
The dystopian/insurrectionist YA trend is particularly frustrating to me because that genre can be such a rich playground for asking and answering questions about who we are, where we're going, why we fight, etc. But so many of these series are just never really willing to /go there/ and you end up with a story that is vacuous and meaningless.
True about TMI. Jon was wasted potencial
We always want more meaningful stories
Great video. Unscripted is fine, but content rich is even better. I'm learning heaps about the YA genre and getting some great pointers through watching your videos (I'm writing YA scifi)
That's great to hear :)
I personally don't think histories need to necesarily have a meaning, if by meaning we understand something like a closed sentence, an answer. Some very good books have no answers. Just the questions. Maybe some differents viewpoints. But not answers. Because a lot of the more interesting questions don't have answers at all. Take ''The portrait of Dorian Gray'' (I absolutely love Wilde) What's the moral learning? Well, none, really. But questions? Now that's another questions. But ultimately, Wilde was simply writing something beautiful (Read Wilde prologue of that book, it's just one page and it's definitely worth the read) Ultimately, what I personally want it's just to give the reader an experience, and have him change with it. But the how, it's up to him. So, I don't agree at that histories should convey a ''clear message''. I prefer to just give the history. The learning, if there's one, is up to the reader. Of course, this doesn't mean I think flat meaningless novels are great, quite the opposite. Also, if you are writing for teens, well, your characters ARE going to be taken as rolemodels. You are, at least partially, responsible about that. Histories whith violence desesitization, normalization of toxic relathionships, etc, are NOT novels for teens (and are also crappy novels generally) But I dont agree with the clear message stuff at all. If so, all of Unamuno's works would be shitty, and he's one of the best writers that have ever lived. Just my opinion, what do you guys think?
Shinwoo K Interesting. I agree. Giving a clear message is a somewhat juvenile expectation. (In the sense of youthful naivety, of course.) It's nice when a book provides that, but is that really challenging the reader in the end? Conveying messages and moral truths is often found in a lot of children's literature both classical and present. Which is great, but the point of that is to teach young children new concepts as well as introduce them to various complexities in life. As one gets older however the teaching style differs. It's sort of like the school experience in a way.
In younger years the message is practically given to you by the teacher. As you get older, you are asked to glean the message for yourself, using various techniques to elicit problem solving. And literature is sort of like that. In younger reading levels everything is more black and white, the moral is more clear cut and the specific themes are practically spelled out for you. As the reading levels get higher, however, ambiguity starts to rear its head. You have to figure out what the book is either trying to tell you or interpret for yourself the message or whatever.
But like art, books are often kind of like a Rorschach test. How you interpret certain books often says more about you than the book itself. Sometimes a book will leave you asking questions without giving any answers whatsoever. And that is usually a far more engaging and dare I say intellectual experience.
Also I'm a big Wilde fan myself. Yay for finding a fellow Wildean!
I try to write seriously, I do. My story does have a dark message, but my writing style isn't like that. I'm naturally comedic and playful when it comes to writing. As I set scenes, it can be dark but as soon as I get into my groove, it lightens up and I don't know what to do about it. Well, I guess it depends on the scene. Some have to be playful and some must be dark but I feel like I'm a horrible writer when I can't be serious and poetic.
Yeah, Throne of Glass gets so much better as it goes on, but I respect your decision not to read on. It's actually one of my favorites, and it goes SO far in depth with that in the 2-5 books.
i feel like sarah's writing and stories have really improved (not that she was bad to begin with, she is just better now!)
I definitely agree with the main points of this video, but HP is not YA, it's children's fantasy. I think that shifts my perspective on what YA is meant to do (aka entertain/provide escapism) whereas you are more likely to find meaning in children's books because they are meant to teach something.
You're one of the most critically thinking BookTubers out there. Chapterstackss and FrancinaSimone are also some BookTubers who make quality content. :)
Dani L. I love FrancinaSimone!!
Amazing video!!
Thanks!
It makes me sad knowing so many trees are cut and turned into paper only to be used for printing things like twilight
This video was very well written. Just a heads up, from an editing perspective, keep your eyes forward and open when you finish the line, that way it doesn't cut as you're looking down or blinking. Even-though we all know there's a jump cut, the human brain has a funny of seeing the split second of seeing your eye positions change and getting irked by it for whatever reason. Lack of closure, or something.
But yes, I definitely agree with a lot of the points made. One of the aspects of YA that draws in new readers is the exploration of identity, and I feel that subject is something that a lot of young people are increasingly struggling with, particularly white kids.
Also, I have been thinking of breaking the fourth wall in a book and having the reader go back to previous pages and having the MC talk directly to the reader. Is this a good idea in your head?
Any thoughts on this?
It'd be hard to pull off, and since I haven't really seen anything like this, I'm not sure how well it'd work, but it may be worth a try!
It’s annoying that the only conflict borne of the murderous impulses of vampires in twilight is whether Bella and Edward can be together
I do agree that a lot of YA lacks depth. I also agree that a lot of adult books lack depth. It depends on the author. Also, Twiligt was like 2003? It kind of was a different time, literature-wise, and it was more for entertainment than a huge message. I've always preferred adult books though, since I was pretty young (now 29)
I love YA books, but I feel like it is a good thing for me to see your point of view about this. I could probably debate some of these things you are saying, but I’m not going to disrespect your opinion, and your view over this.
Honestly, I haven't rewatched it, but this video is ancient so I probably could debate some of these as well haha
You amaze some amazing points; I think books like beautiful creature and the ugliest series are good examples of an overly simplistic moral structure and one that is complex with beautiful creatures having a weak good vs bad dichotomy and uglies series exploring the moral ambiguity of humanity as a whole.
Types in 'what was the point of the ballad of song birds and snakes' gets this video recommended …….. concludes yep there wasn't one
i am loving this content!! i don't know much about literature so when a character is flawed and gets hurt but also has some Great Development (and in some cases a Great Redemption arc) and makes me cry, i consider the book to be good.
I would strongly recommend you read IN OTHER LANDS by Sarah Rees Brennan. The protagonist has strong beliefs (he's a pacifist in a magical land where humans, mermaids, trolls, harpies and elves are constantly at war (because the humans are sneaky and also cultural differences) but he just wants to solve it by talking! and making treaties!), and i feel that the book conveys the message WAR IS BAD!!!!! well.
It also explores bisexuality (get that rep), romantic and sexual and platonic relationships in teenagers, gender roles, and a kid who have major problems due to his dad's fucked up parenting. It doesn't give you the surface like ~haha this boy has daddy issues enjoy this Great Backstory ~ , it addresses his problems. And it hurts so much but it's so good for my soul, I / k n o w / this boy now. Unless some protagonists who are just a blank slate for people to project their own personality onto.
Also could you do a video about the power of perspective in stories. First person, second person and third. The right way you have seen it done and the wrong way it has been done.
Great idea!!