My dad's friend writes YA and dabbles in dystopia. One time, my dad sent her a text that said, "Hey, can you tell me the name of that one dystopian young adult book? You know, the one about a group of teenagers in a rotting society ruled by adults making laws they don't understand who are roped into complex politics they used to have no business in, in order to form an active resistance movement to overthrow the government and start a new order of unity?"
In my opinion, George Orwell's "1984" is the definitive dystopian novel. I get the feeling that, in a real life dystopia, people would end up less like Katniss Everdeen, and more like Winston Smith.
To be honest, I don't think 1984 is all that relevant nowadays. People love to bring 1984 up whenever any government does something they dislike, yet the scenario presented in the book is not at all what is happening here. We are not headed towards a totalitarian government with absolute control, but the exact opposite of that - a neoliberal corpocracy where the vast majority of people will end up unemployed and at the complete mercy of the "free market" in giant slums overrun by criminals, and a dying planet that only the extremely rich may comfortably live on. This is honestly a much worse dystopia than 1984, and also much more realistic, but nobody seems to even think about that. I guess saying "government bad" is easier...
IMO 1984 is literally North Korea (I honestly suspect they simply read it and decided to emulate it over there). Brave New World is way more pertinent to the Western society - the total downfall of morality, drugs everywhere, disposable children etc. Frankly, both prospects are equally horrible, just in different ways.
@@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus yeah hyper-capitalism seems to be the trend now in the US. But when talking about countries like north korea it's a little relevant.
1984 is important as a mean to understand fascism and fascism-tangent ideologies, but Brave New World is much more relevant to today's world; fear and enforcement has its limits, and a man is able to jump into the fire if it is to save his child, but he's just as able to throw the child into the bronze bull if he has enough faith. And faith is the key word here, because _the system_ is a cult and a religion, and it manipulates through the sustitution of the perceived reality. In Brave New World _the system_ is fordism, while in most of our world it is now the neoliberal ideology.
I think the hunger games was a great book that brought up a lot of real messages and symbolism that reflected our own current society, but since it was widely read by pre-teens and younger audiences, a lot of the important themes in the novel went kind of over their heads and the focus was pulled more towards the romance and love triangle in the novel. When it gained popularity there was a bunch of copycats who just took the idea of a corrupt society with rebels and romance and then ran with it.
I get your point, but I have yo disagree with people copying it. I feel like when people say that there are so many books that copied THG, people just tend to look at the tiniest similarities and just say they were copying. Like, what’s wrong with any other book having a female protagonist, or a post-apocalyptic world, or romance? THG isn’t the only book that’s allowed to have all of that.
The funny thins is, the author didn't really want to deep dive into the love triangle but her editor told her to because that was more relevant to some teens that read it instead of the fact that they were literally in the middle of a war lmao
Recent Distopia=The Maze Runner series. Completely nonsense authority figures? Check. No basis in real, actual problems? Check. The fate of the entire world somehow lies in the shoulders of a post-pubescent underdog for not even close to a believable reason? Check. For real, this is the first series (aside from James Bond) that has made me say "the movies are way better"
Naum Rusomarov With many modern dystopia novels, the author, in telling what's wrong, shows what s/he thinks is right. The issue is when I (the reader) disagree with the author. The extent of that disagreement influences what I think of the protagonist, other characters, and the story as a whole.
Not really. A utopia is a perfect world based on an individuals beliefs on how such a world would come to exist. A dystopia is not the opposite of a utopia. It is not an imperfect world. It's simply a not perfect world. A bad world. One person's utopia is not another's dystopia. Only that person can create their own dystopia. Someone's utopia would make me unhappy probably but it wouldn't always end up to be my dystopia.
I don't read a lot of dystopian, but The Giver was one of the books that struck me going through middle school. Comparing that to (at least the movie) Divergent... no competition, Divergent is garbage. It's childish and I kept thinking how the society as a whole was deeply flawed from the get go and all the characters needed to be as stupid as they were portrayed in order for the thing to even work. Not only that but how the ever-loving heck does a society work where the majority of your society is destitute that doesn't contribute and basically waits to die and serves as just a big scary the protag might be afraid of falling into?
nightinthetwilight I agree with you I loved The Giver(I didn't like the movie though) but when I read books like The Hunger Games, Divergent and The Maze Runner they lost the true meaning of the Dystopian genre they use it as a way to make the world/setting look cool and edgy when dystopia is not about that, this also shows in the movies.
One reason I feel the genre hasn't done well recently is the incredibly rigid formula they seem to follow. You suggest this, but I would like to add that dystopian does not have to be post-apocalyptic, or even futuristic. Take "Lord of the Flies", it's a dystopian at heart, designed by lost children. One thing "1984" (fabulous book by the way, read it now) gets right, is that it does not take on the burden of the whole planet. It realistically describes a single country/continent and its relationship with the rest of the world. The country focused on in "1984" feels a lot like modern day North Korea.
I remember when Divergent first came out and everyone was raving about it and it became the new obsession over The Hunger Games. And I really enjoyed The Hunger Games series. And when I read Divergent it was exactly like you said. Like humans are not just one trait. And it felt unrealistic. And the fact Tris was 'divergent' even though everyone acted basically like normal people. While some people may disagree, I feel like Tris paved the way for young female heroine fights big government and has either one or several guys interested.
I really need to read more dystopias, but of what I've read, Unwind is my personal favourite. It touches on too many issues to list that have actual relevance to current society, some key ones being organ donation and unwanted/problem children. It completely blew my mind when I first read it, and it made 13-year-old me think a hell of a lot more than the Hunger Games or Divergent ever did (as much as I still enjoyed them).
"Unwind" holds a special place in my heart. Try "Uglies" by Scott Westerfeld. I haven't read them in quite some time (they precede Unwind, Hunger Games, Divergent, etc...and came out around the same time as "Twilight") so they probably had flaws I didn't notice as a teen, but they also spoke to me on a deeper level. "Hunger Games", at least as a movie, admittedly felt to me like a knock-off compared to "Uglies".
Jordan Harvey "Unwind" is YA taking controversial to its peak in what I've seen from YA. It's delightful and VERY refreshing to read something not catered to the more timid members of society.
OMG fellow Unwind lover that book is so poignant and just amazing!I personally think that book is so underatted.I am eager for the movie or a tv show:)
It's not a novel, it's not even YA, but if you're into anime or might be interested in it, Psycho Pass is good dystopia series. Basically in the future, Japan developed a system called Psycho Pass that can measure people's psyche and determine their probability to commit violence based on it, called the Crime Coefficient. It works well, crime rate's down, but the downsides are people having to actually mind their stress level, being stressed about keeping their stress down, people being ostracized for having even a very slightly higher CC than normal, people with high CC would be confined in a psychiatric centre basically forever if it never goes down due to so many human factors. The main characters are a rookie Inspector, basically the detectives, and an Enforcer, anyone who has a high CC that refuses to go down but decided to be put into use as basically the K - 9, with Inspectors being their handler and they're not allowed to get out of the HQ without Inspector supervision. Warning though, it does contain gore and depictions of sexual assault.
@@Tamaki742 Theres also the secret immortal King who has been ruling the world from the shadows by convincing the world he doesn't exist. But here, this explains it better: ruclips.net/video/QokSqPHzZII/видео.html
My favorite recent example of a dystopian society came from a Netflix series called Black Mirror, a Twilight Zone-style anthology series that's basically, 'Technology is great, but people can be crap and keep finding the worst ways of implementing it.' The first episode of season 3 'Nosedive' showed a very unnerving kind of dystopia. The society in this episode use an all-encompassing social media app where people can rate each other from 1 to 5 stars for every little thing that they do. Life in this society is easier when you have a higher rating, which also seems to tie directly into class status. What you end up getting in this society are people that are trying to out-nice each other, not because it's the right thing to do, but because they are vainly trying to up their own ratings.
i adore black mirror, but i honestly don't get why people seem so fascinated by this episode. it felt very predictable and bland to me. definitely one of the weaker black mirror episodes. i also felt like it didn't make me ask any deeper inner questions of "i've never thought about this. what would i do in this situation?" the concept seemed like just anybody could've come up with it tbh and i hold black mirror to higher standards than that bc usually their ideas are things i could never dream up (or at least not to that extent/with that much detail)
One of THE best dystopian novels I've read is the Unwind series. Seriously it's brilliant and extremely thought provoking. If you're a fan of dystopia, give it a try!
The minute you said how far would one take to achieve a perfect world, I immediately thought of Light from Death Note. And man, he was willing to kill all criminals to remove evil in the world. After reading the story, I realized how much one would have to sacrifice to achieve perfection. Idk if you've ever read it or watched the show (not the movie it's horrible) I'd recommend it to you. Idk if manga/anime is your thing, but it's worth checking out. It's not dystopian but it does heavily touch upon justice and creating a perfect world. Loved the video btw. ^_^
Rhea Ayane in my opinion lights "perfect world" was never going to work because he only cared about getting rid of the effects of a bad society not the causes. He killed criminals but didn't do anything to make a society where there would be no need for crime. His solution for unemployment was to just murder the unemployed. That's not sustainable. All stick no carrot
+kpoplove Rhea was talking about the Japanese manga and anime, I was talking about the anime. The movies don't have enough time to include him killing poor people too, they just focus on killing criminals and killing the FBI trying to catch Kira.
For some weird reason I knew someone would comment something about Death Note lol. I'm surprised to see I was right. Light's plan from the beginning was flawed and would not have created a perfect society. The whole thing is just sad.
Horse Mann part of me supported Light at the beginning... And I know many as well. I know It's wrong but I also think that's why It's a masterpiece, It challenges What you really think If some things became possible. Most of the time when you ask people What would they do If they had an invisibility power they tell you ilegal stuff, from sth innocent like watching movies without paying, to cheating in exams and even worse stealing. It's funny how we humans work in societies
Basically, lack of pushing the bounderies of our thoughts and challenging what we know is what is wrong with dystopian literature nowadays. I agree with this.
I don't think a book has to be "deep" and "saying something about the human race" to be good. I'm just tired of these overused dystopia tropes of SPECIAL GIRL WITH POWERS!!! CUTE BOY IN LOVE WITH HER!!! ALSO ANOTHER BOY!! THEY R SIXTEEN AND SOMEHOW KNOW HOW TO START A REVOLUTION!!!
Winter Addict I love many books that aren't "deep" but I also think that the dystopian genre has to have some degree of commentary. As I said in my video, until the last couple of years it had to be a society that strove for perfection but failed, and unfortunately that definition of the genre has changed since the YA dystopian boom.
I have several social activists that I consider friends or at least acquaintances. Their age range from 15 to 25, and after interacting with them I knew that the "16 year old who overthrows the government" is bullshit, haha. It's not entirely _impossible_ esp since the 1998 revolution in Indonesia was made possible by young activists who were about 18-23, but it's also not that easy and, if I may assume, is very rare.
Thank you for this insight. I just started working on a story idea that is a blend of dystopia, sci-fi and fantasy, so having a message behind it is something I need to keep in mind. My idea is in two parts: Part 1/Book 1 shows a dystopian world where most of humanity has been wiped out and people now live in cities that are encased by domes which they call The Wall. My protagonist ends up outside the Wall, meets Outlanders, and learns about what has really happened to the world, what the Wall really is and who put it there - possibly alien/supernatural beings who caused the decline of humanity and now keep the survivors penned in like concentration/preservation camps. With the reduced human population, magic (I want to use another word for it) which is a life fore for these supernatural beings and was spread too thin to have any affect before is now returning. The Walls keep it out of the cities, but people and the environment exposed to it begin to change or develop power. This is the genesis of a new world and the people in it don't understand what is happening yet, so the reader would be learning just as they are. Part 2/Book 2 would be set a few hundred years later after the Wall around each city has been taken down and we see how the world, societies, cultures and religions have evolved. There are now Kings and Queens, schools of magic, conflicts between magic and technology, religious extremist groups, and creatures like the Phoenix, Basilisk, Griffons, Dragons, Raven Mockers and more who are actually people. The history of this world will tie into the story and characters of Book 1. (Think Harry Potter meets Game of Thrones) Book 1 might actually be a prequel for Book 2, showing how this fantasy world which used to be a world like ours came to be.
the real issue with dystopian fiction (especially YA) is that it's forgotten that dystopia is a political genre, and a radical one at that. a lot of modern dystopian fiction basically just reinforces weak liberal capitalist beliefs of "individuality". it's failing to challenge the norm in every way.
I am taking a course on Utopia this year so this video came at the perfect time! More's "Utopia", while depicting a perfect society, is also critical of whether such a society is desirable. The people live in abundance and are not overworked, but they are also not free, they are within the boundaries of what is allowed. More himself is saying that it is impossible to have a perfect society, and later authors reflect that. I love this topic, I think I want to do my dissertation on it.
Sasha Bunakova Thank you! As I said in the video, I haven't read it (yet!) so that's good to know! I absolutely love dystopian novels though so it's definitely on my list. It's definitely an interesting topic to do a dissertation on so I wish you the best of luck!
Sasha Bunakova I strongly recommend the book Red Star by Alexander Bogdanov. It was written in the aftermath of the 1905 Russian revolution and describes an idealised communist society on Mars. The author was an early member of the bolsheviks and the book was popular at the time in Russia. It makes a good contrast to We by Yevgeny Zamyatin which was published twelve years later, in 1920, and was anti-collectivist, something of its antithesis, and which George Orwell used as a blueprint for Nineteen-Eighty-four.
I will definitely get on that! I've read 'We' for a Russian Literature course and really loved it. It's very interesting to see the contrasts and similarities between different authors.
Sasha Bunakova Glad to help. If you're looking at the subject of utopia it's difficult to get better than to look at the Russian revolution (especially because this year is the 100th anniversary), the art, the ideas within it. It's the ultimate example of utopian ideals being put into practice. Too bad it all went so wrong.
Sasha Bunakova Another work I'd recommend at least knowing about is 'Daedalus; or Science of the Future' by J B S Haldane (who was a relatively well known biologist in pre-war Britain). It's a pamphlet, written in 1923, predicting, among other things, a future of exogenesis - growing babies outside the womb - and was the root of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World - which, of course, is the other big dystopian novel beside Nineteen-Eighty-four.
*Dystopian book recommendation* I recommend the Uglies series, because it's bomb, and deals with lots of dubious morality and corruption in government. Along with questioning things like individuality, beauty standards in society, the effects of peer pressure, and a few other things I don't want to spoil for any potential readers. Yeah our protagonist is a young woman (who starts off as a teenager in book 1) who eventually leads to the overthrowing of the corrupt government, but the first book was published in 2005 so it actually predates the Hunger Games which flung that plot into mainstream media like a live grenade.
Yes! It does seem pretty shallow at first but the more you think about it the deeper it gets. And I love how Tally is much more an anti-hero than a hero who tries the best but just makes it worse and worse. But what I love the most about it is that there are moments where you wonder if that fictional world is not that bad at all actually, because they *are* all happy and there are no wars any more and no oppression and everybody is the same. You can sort of understand why Dr Cable acts the way she acts (and oh boy, she is so sarcastic and cold, she is an magnificent piece of shit, way better than the evil lady from Divergent). Yes, the love triangle is annoying, but then there also is the amazing frenemy ship with Tally and Shay. And [spoilers] I love how it actually subverts the "girl destroys evil system" bit a bit because even if Tally does that, she also becomes guardian of what was good about the system at the end?
I completely agree. I have been rereading some YA Dystopian and when I reread the Hunger Games I realized I had forgotten how great of a book it was. Then I reread Divergent and was majorly disappointed. I am working on outlining a dystopian novel I plan to write and I was struggling with what I wanted the plot to be. I have a utopia planned out but this video helped me pin down what I want the central conflict to be. Thank you!
Totally agree. I remember when I first read Divergent I first thought of how many directions the author could just run with , like the idea of all these groups believing that past civilizations fell because they were ultimately lying to themselves too much or weren't brave enough or selfless or smart enough to stop society from crumbling . Philosophically it would have been very interesting for character arcs ; and as someone who went from abnegation to dauntless, it would have been interesting to see Tris be affected by those different societies philosophies as she adjusted . And since she was "divergent" maybe that meant she understood that all factions had valid points and best worked when they were together....or the opposite , maybe she thinks one faction was ultimately right in POV or maybe she thought they were all complete and created a faction and whole culture of her own .... Lots of room for originality here
Thank goodness. I agree. The Hunger Games is the last great YA dystopia series in recent years. It's really a shame the the recent YA dystopias haven't been able to live up to its message.
Utopia isn't a novel, it's philosophical work. It's actually quite similar in style to Rousseau's state of nature. More simply describes life in utopia without concentrating on a person or group. It reads like a documentary. Utopia actually has a lot of communistic ideas and it's funny that Henry VIII actually founded Utopia and praised it. It's really easy to read and super interesting. You should give it a go !
Theonlydays I said "some consider it to be one of the first novels" because it's debated whether or not it is. It's an early fictional work without a doubt but historians and those who study classics and literature disagree on if it's a novel or not. Novels had a different meaning back then so it kind of depends on whether you qualify it during the time it was written or by current standards.
Henry VIII was very found of it because a Utopia is the very true goal of every tyrant. He thought he could manage his subjects as peons and even tried to change their religion to please his ambition. It is a very interesting book. Some suggested it was a veiled satire to humanists, priests and politicians.
I also feel that the romance in dystopia is mishandled. Rather than using it to show yet another flaw or say anything, its often either cheaply shoehorned in, or worse, becomes the whole story while the dystopia is just a backdrop for the same three characters to have a romance. And I don't think romance and dystopia have to be mutually exclusive (look at 1984), but when its just the three cardboard cutouts tangled in the same love triangle again whilst practically ignoring the world crumbling down, it's like, what's the point of this setting?
YES. I know, it's the worst. I think love plays a huge role in humanity and oftentimes it's not explored to it's fullest potential in dystopian novels.
Thank you for this. I've been wanting to write a dystopian novel lately, and now I know what not to do I agree, I love a book that gives me lingering thoughts. I read Fahrenheit 451 recently in my English class, and now I can't stop thinking how our society is turning to be like it
You are by far the most eloquent and analytical RUclipsrs I've ever watch. This video made me happy. A lot of booktubers could learn a thing or two from you.
Yessssss, this is what I've been saying! A dystopian novel that doesn't somewhat reflect the flaws of current society isn't worth much imo. 1984 was written as a response to the Soviet Union and a dangerously extreme sense of nationalism (which is why it tends to still be relevant today). The Handmaid's Tale attacked the way that society treats women by imagining the most extreme version of those patriarchal "values." The Hunger Games was a great commentary on voyeurism through media and the way tyrannical governments beat down on lower classes. But then, you have books where it's just "OH YEAH IT'S ILLEGAL TO FEEL ANY KIND OF AFFECTION." "WE'VE SPLIT THE ENTIRE WORLD INTO FOUR HOGWARTS HOUSE LIKE 'FACTIONS,'" and those don't...really feel relevant. (I mean the "It's illegal to love" thing could be a statement about marriage equality, I GUESS, but since the main couples are usually straight white average teenage couples, not really a very effective one?)
I agree; dystopia has a lot of meaning only because it is a preventative tale, and it should make us think about our own society--which it draws many parallels from--critically. When 1984 came out, it was calling out government surveillance and dictatorships during the war. The Handmaid's Tale was written during a time when the next president in office stripped away a lot of progress feminists made during the previous offices and the objectification of women. The Hunger Games is about rigid class systems, apathy to those whose problems we do not share, the glorification of violence in entertainment, etc. And you can even say a dystopian work has succeeded when the audience has realised it, and prevented the actuality from happening in the real world society. I literally just heard of one where people are born with two souls. And eventually, one soul would take over, killing the other. But the conflict is, our main character is coexisting with her other soul. So she must die, and the government is after her life. Uhm... Fuck? Just find another genre to label yourself as dude. It's completely unrealistic, totally technologically unattainable, and just...it isn't a THING. It just isn't a dystopia, by definition. There is no feasible issue here, man. Works like that are diluting the genre and its intentions. (I'm sure there were more layers to it than that, but the premise is too ridiculous already)
I did a bit of googling and I think I found the book you described (What's Left of Me by Kat Zhang), and judging by the reviews it's exactly as lacking in message as you say which I find really disappointing. The premise is actually pretty promising in terms of commentary on society, since nuance and duality often take a backseat to extremism in today's world and the double souls could have worked as an excellent allegory for this. Young adult dystopia novels have pretty decent premises most of the time, but then in execution they turn out really poor because the author doesn't seem to want to do the work of developing a real theme, perhaps because they underestimate the intellect of their audience. It's a real shame.
Moore never actually set out to say his book was an example of a "utopia." It was actually a satirical criticism on the way English society was trending at the time and he needed to be very, very careful about criticizing it at the time, thus his true point went over everyone's heads. It's actually a very funny book and not meant to be serious about humans setting up what he thinks is a utopia.
lumpyspacecadet Interesting. It's on my list so I'm hoping to read it soon! From what I had read online while researching this video, I thought it was what I had mentioned in the video, but thank you for clarifying! I guess I was misinformed.
I'm super late to the discussion, I discovered your channel very recently. I agree with everything you said. Recent YA dystopian novels are mostly focused on the romance or coming-of-age story of the main characters and the society is a cheap, watered down mix of other established, well-known dystopias. There is no message or social commentary, just Teenage Main Character and Hot Love Interest trying to overthrow Cartoon Villain Authority. The only reason some of these books are dystopian is because it was the most popular and easy to market genre at the time they were published. We're seeing it happen again and again in YA, the same formulaic story, the same overused tropes, and an underdeveloped dystopian/wizarding/fairy/etc. society used as a backdrop.
As I understand from Hunger Games, Panem wasn't meant to be a utopia. It started after some unknown series of events left the world in ruins, and Panem was established in the aftermath. Then the Districts rebelled against the Capitol, the Capitol won the war (but allowed District 13 to be independent because the were the only District with nukes) and established the games as a way of both keeping the districts in a state of humiliation, and by showering the winning district with favors for a year so that they'd see each other as competitors rather than allies. Within poorer districts, the Capitol encouraged class rivalries by making it so that receiving the equivalent of food stamps required you to submit extra copies of your name to be tribute, so that those who needed this would resent the people in their districts who didn't. Real world dictatorships usually prefer their populace to be united against a common external enemy (such as Eastasia, whom we've always been at war with), but in the world of the Hunger Games, no such enemy exists (other than possibly District 13, which was itself part of Panem), so setting them against each other is an interesting idea. I also like how Katniss's status as the "chosen hero" is deliberately used in universe as propaganda by the rebels, who meanwhile ignore that she's a kid suffering from PTSD which only gets worse as the series progresses. What killed the Hunger Games was the love triangle (shocker) and the fact that the villains were really stupid. Real world dictators present themselves to the common people as being simultaneously ubermensch and ordinary red blooded folk who are just like you. Blatantly flaunting their wealth and extravagance, especially to the poorer districts, is the kind of idiocy that gets your monarchs sent to the guillotine.
Isn't The Hunger Games also a ripoff? Plus, if we're looking for a "deep commentary on society's flaws", I highly doubt that YA novels are the place to look for. Sadly, the industry currently focuses on selling easy entertainment and if following the usual formula ("young "normal" girl who overthrows a corrupt government while being involved in some kind of love triangle") is what sells, then they'll use it. Sad but true.
I haven't read The Hunger Games in a while but I felt that the plot was reflective on the emotionlessness of capitalism and commodity fetishism. It's very easy to apply a Marxist perspective on it. Then again, haven't read it in years and am probably wrong.
The Hunger Games isn't a rip-off, despite the claims of salty Battle Royale fans. The concept of deadly games has existed long before either franchise and will exist long after them.
well YA is suited for YA. Do YAs _really_ care about anything too deep meaning or thoughtful? The majority? No. Why put effort into something for shallow minded people? Just use formulas that are proven to work and you get profit.
Just got done reading Neal Shusterman's "Scythe" and I've been dying for a video like this. COMPLETELY missed the mark in trying to be a dystopia. Not because it had a "mean-bad government;" because they're basically were no problems in this society. There were just a few assholes that then ended up making no difference whatsoever on the world at large.
Had been searching for intelligent, insightful (yet not too tiring XD) content on RUclips, and I'm so glad I stumbled upon this channel! It's perfect!😁 Thanks for making these and can't agree with you more!
Hunger Games is where it all started. I just REALLY BADLY want to read a dystopian story that focuses on world building heck even get political! And trash out the relationships, one of the huge flaws. Basically a dystopian story that is strictly No Romance coz its too overdone.
I would suggest to you, 1984. The characters are a reflection of the twisted world, not outliers who stand out among the sheep. There's a romance subplot, but there's something indescribable about how it's executed that sets it apart from YA trash.
Read the windup girl! It is a fairly recent dystopian novel (2012) , and talks a lot about climate change. Hell, you can even read Battle Royale too, hunger games is based off heavily from that book
Try the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. First book is Furies Of Calderon. His world building is quite good, there's a slight predictability to the book but I think it's easily forgiven. It's one of Jim Butcher's lesser known and shorter works; only 6 books.
I'm so happy you think like this! Glad there are other people that share my view! Great video! I'm currently writing my own novel in a dystopian setting and listening to your views shows me that I'm on the right track with the general theme of it!
I would like to read a book about a dystopian society, and the protagonist of this story is not a perfect human but he/she tries to chance the corrupt system but in the end fails ( but there is a little hope in the end). Are books like that exist?
1984 and my personal favorite is actually The Last Book In The Universe. It's less about overthrowing the government in TLBITU but more of a personal adventure and growth dealing with literature itself
the handmaids tail is like that its reveled in the epilogue that Gilead did fall becaue people are studing the text after the fact but we dont know when it did or if offred had anyting to do with it
In Divergent people aren't literally only one thing, their aptitude for factions is just what they have the most in. Like when you take those tests in middle school, in key stone, or social studies, to see if you're extrovert or introvert, most (emphases on most) people don't score a 100% on that test no matter which answer you get, the result is which answer got the highest percentage. Scoring an 80% on introvert on that test makes you an introvert (switch if you're extrovert), you aren't just 80% introvert and 20% extrovert, you're just an introvert. This doesn't mean you don't have extrovert tendencies, you obviously do, or that 20% wouldn't be there. In the Divergent universe test if you scored 50% amity, 5% erudite, 10% dauntless, 10% candor, and 15% abnegation, you wouldn't be divergent, you'd just be amity. Being divergent is like being an ambevert, a perfect 50-50 split of introvert and extrovert. Not impossible, but less common (especially if society were killing them whenever they found them). _It's just rant about the movie after this point, so feel free to stop reading._ Which is also part of the reason why I don't like the movies as much as the books, they make it were people are only one thing, and give divergent people degrees of divergentness, which is stupid and convoluted. Divergence is equal aptitude in more than one faction virtue, one divergent can't be more or less equal than another without one being unequal. Along with making Tris a perfectly balanced divergent with all five faction virtues, which would make her a perfect human being (which she isn't in movie, because she tries to hide the truth in her trial at Candor), while in the books she was only a perfect split between dauntless and abnegation, which is a lot more believable. Book Tris was flawed, she disliked telling the truth if it hurt her friends, she didn't value knowledge as much as bravery, didn't value it much at all, and she didn't believe in being nice or forgiving to someone who she didn't feel deserve it. Was she brave, yeah, was she willing to sacrifice for others, yeah, did her bravery and selflessness make her perfect, no.
A very interesting Dystopian/Utopian society is the Antarktis in the Legend trilogie, where you get Status points for good actions and so on. Sadly, we didn't see much of Antarktis in the books
An articulate argument! I agree that many ya dystopian books are lacking these days. another gripe of mine is romance tends to eclipse any sort of societal commentary in these books! Red Rising is a good trilogy that has a lot of political and societal commentary in its fictional caste system. I remember the Pretties series by Scott Westerfeld also had a lot to say about social media watching you. The party lifestyle of the pretties reminded me of soma in A Brave New World - people are controlled by making them oblivious and happy, but taking away thought. However I reread it this year and I have to say I liked it more when I was a tween! Still a compelling series, I would argue.
Claire Guthrie I read Uglies and Pretties back in junior high and I remember liking them, but I don't think I'd reach for them again. I can definitely see where you got that parallel from though. It totally has brave new world vibes!
Interesting that you brought up More's Utopia in your video. Personally, I'd argue that Plato's The Republic is probably the ur-example of Utopian literature. Indeed, Brave New World was a critique of it, as well as some of the Utopian fiction written by H.G. Wells.
I feel like you read my mind and made this video. This is my exact problem with recent YA dystopia. There is no logical reasoning as to how the dystopian societies in most series became the way they are.
This helped so much! I'm planning a dystopian and I've never looked so critically to this part of the genre about creating a strong meaning to the society of my book that will answer the question: "What price would you be willing to pay for perfection?" This question is what I need to start things right. I'll seriously write your name in my diary as one of the few persons that are helping me to make my dream come true. Thank you
I would love to read a satirical dystopian novel where the government is ruled by Tumblr and the people are punished for acts of political incorrectness
@ Dyce Averruncus * "I would love to read a satirical dystopian novel where the government is ruled by Tumblr and the people are punished for acts of political incorrectness" Ha! I would read that!
I had an idea like that once. It was called "Let Us Gaily Tread the Measure", and was about a society ruled by radical tumblr-feminist-types which marginalised men because of their supposed "male privilege", and where society was structured according to the "progressive stack" mentality.
I really enjoyed this discussion and appreciate your critical thinking about some of the problems with YA novels without just bashing them. I'll be looking out for more, subscribed!
Honestly, this video was so refreshing to watch. I was expecting more complaints about how much dystopian YA novels focused on love instead of war, and was pleasantly surprised by an actual literary criticism. I read Brave New World recently, and I really highly recommend it to you and all the other commenters. Adolus Huxley, the author, was WAYYYY ahead of his time (1930-something is the publication date). Warning though: he does use outdated language regarding people of color, but he does seem to have a progressive stance on them and how American society treats them. You can even search for parts of his world's culture that seems to be replicated in our modern society today (it's fascinating: plastic surgery, recreational drugs that are legal and in fact encouraged, 3D movies... This guy was writing during the Great Depression too!). I read it for English class at the beginning of the year and it gave me a lot of thought-provoking material to work with, so yeah! Highly recommended.
4:31 “It showed publishers that as long as you have a strong female protagonist and a big bad government for her to overcome, it would sell.” This accurately sums up the latest trio of Star Wars movies. We have a Mary Sue who can do no wrong taking on the galaxy with her magic powers. Yawn. Disney has run storytelling into the ground.
Regarding divergent, I think the idea of the factions is which trait is MOST prominent. In divergents, though, 2 or more traits show higher prominence. Tris, I believe, had equal values for each trait, making her a true divergent. Like, instead of 2%, 10%, 7%, 59%, and remaining, its more like, 20%,20%,20%...
You talking about Utopia reminded me alot of this one series called Death Note. It made me think alot about the stuff you touched on in this video. If you've heard of it, I guess you'll know what I'm talking about but either way, thanks so much for covering this stuff!!
Subscribed! This is probably one of the best discussions on this particular topic (i.e. YA dystopian) that I've seen in a while. The issues you raised really define why I personally cannot enjoy a lot of the YA dystopian novels out there. A lot of it struggles to make a compelling message about our society or to challenge many of the tropes of the genre. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
A great dystopian book is a Japanese novel From the New World (Shinsekai yori) that was adapted into one of the most thought provoking and deep anime series. It's definitely a breath of fresh air compared to most Western dystopias and I can't recommend it enough for fans of the genre
How I think Divergent could've been better: Make the factions all encompass one trait, yes, but ONLY that trait. Take Erudite, for example. Say that this Erudite has always been told that they were smart, and therefore thought that they were. They decide to go to Erudite. At Erudite, they find out that the percieved-by-others-as-smart people greatly exaggerated this trait. Often sounding pretentious, arrogant, and ignorant. What if the Dsytopia there could be that, yes, you are good at this thing. Let's make it be the only thing you do! Instead of realizing that there are many other facets as well.
A really good Dystopian novel you might enjoy is The Testing. It's about a world ravaged by a nuclear war, and humanity is living in colonies. In order to distinguish which children would make good leaders/ideal rebuilders of the world, the government has teachers submit which children should be put through the Testing. If he/she passes, the child goes on to a prestigious school where the world-building and leadership things are taught with the intention of sending said children into harsh parts of the wasteland for things like water purification, vegetable genetic testing and new colonies. But the children have to get through the Testing first... Edit: I know it's a trilogy, I've only read the first book, and honestly, I think the first book could stand alone if it wanted to, so yeah, haven't read the other two lol.
All this time I thought dystopia meant a story set in a futuristic world that had peaked then collapsed or dealing with the aftermath of a great despair, like war. I guess I thought so because in The Hunger Games (which was probably my first dystopian novel) there was a war and the society tried to do "better" but got probably everything wrong. So, thanks for actually informing me what a dystopia really is! I guess there mustn't really be a war beforehand to make dystopia happen.
Phelan K.C. Thank you!! And there definitely can be a war, but there doesn't have to be! A war is often used because it's a catalyst for change, but again, it could be something else.
That is only a small, rigid variation of "dystopian" genres. Often period pieces are quite dystopian. It really applies to anything describing an attempt to perfect society controlled by a select few. Governing forces, and their inherent flaws are usually a good sign of dystopia. Take the "Luxe" series, for example. Not at all futuristic, they take place in the early 1900s and have very realistic themes, concepts, and driving events. The "dystopian" aspect comes from high society, where everything you do is judged based on how much money you have down to whether or not you can publicly mourn the loss of a loved one. As you could probably tell, I don't consider "dystopian" a stand-alone genre, it's usually more of a theme.
Jordan, I'm currently writing a dystopian novel that will rock your world, lol. It fits all of your criteria, as well as mine. That's why I've decided to write it. I, too, believe dystopian fiction has had a negative shift from deeper, philosophical questions and answers to plot-heavy page-turners with their only intent being to entertain.
I think that a lot of young adult dystopians use dystopia as a technique to put the YA characters in dangerous situations in a "plausible" way, without interference from parents or responsible adults. This, in a way, puts a lot of agency on the main characters. I agree that the world-building seems poor or underdeveloped, especially in comparison to A Handmaid's Tale or The Road, but that isn't necessarily the selling point either. They want to tell the story of some young adult that falls in love, defies danger and possibly upsets the status quo in the dystopian society.
As someone in children’s publishing, I want everyone to keep in mind that writers are rarely the ones who place a genre on their book, once it will be traditionally published. It’s the editor’s, sakes & marketing teams, etc. who decide on how to brand the book. Not saying the writers weren’t heavily inspired by these books like THG and wanted to write their own version of that but they *may not* have been going for a larger/dystopian message. So these authors may not necessarily have had it in mind to write a dystopian novel. YA dystopian has become more formulaic so it’s like “does this story hit these marks? Yes? Then it’s dystopian”
I actually really enjoyed the Divergent series and I would argue against some of your criticisms such as the simplistic nature of the 5 castes and the fact that humans do not fall neatly into one category. I feel like the reasoning for the 5 classes based on one defining character trait was in order to highlight precisely this - to create an image of a society that, from the get-go, was built on principles fundamentally opposed to human nature and biology, which is a contentious theme nowadays with many competing ideologies vying for space on the world stage, some of which are in constant fighting opposition to the base human instincts. Furthermore, it was an exploration of the differences of people, through Roth's portrayal of the many vastly different people within the given factions, and showing that people can often be more similar to the members of other factions than of their own. As well as this, when you talked about how it would be boring for entire groups of characters to be based off one trait, that ignores all the other personality traits that aren't encompassed within the 5, such as ambition, temperance, loyalty and independence, which are all explored deeply by Roth throughout the series, particularly loyalty and independence due to the obvious overriding theme of the series being rebellion and self-actualization. A large part of the issue with not everybody having "at least some degree of Divergence" comes, if I remember correctly, from the construction of the environment and world in which the story takes place. The prime metric for determining Divergence was the test which relies on decisions and instinct, all of which are discrete, absolute and by no means a sliding scale. As a result of this, I would assume that yes, everybody has some degree of Divergence, but due to the way the test works only people above a certain threshold register as Divergent, which I think is displayed in the form of a percentage reading from Insurgent onwards. Another facet of the world-building coming into play would be in the backstory revealed in Allegiant - that the 5 castes and the Divergent system as a whole all originate from a genetic engineering programme in humans, which (if a little too conveniently) can function as a fall-back answer for some of the issued raised here like the overwhelming dominance of one trait and the degree of Divergence in different characters, as an aide to explanation and not as the sole Deus Ex Machina, catch-all answer which it may appear to be at first glance. I've not read these books in some time so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I did really love them when I read them and I'd recommend diving back in if you get the time. Regardless, great video all-round and I'll be sticking around to watch more in future :)
I feel you. I wouldn't mind the obsession with modern dystopian literature if I couldn't help but feel like it's more or less affecting how people actually view the world today.
A month ago I bought a brave new world and 1984. Now, a month later I encounter this channel .... I'm not sure if it's a coincidence, but it's at least interesting. I am quite new with this genre so I have no opinion yet, but what you say I will certainly keep in mind when reading 👍🏾👍🏾 + subcriber btw....
I watched only few of your videos but I absolutely love them. You seems to be a very intelligent person and a critical reader. I was searching for such a booktuber for such a long time and searching ended with a success! Keep up the good work.
I totally agree, it's really hard to find a dystopian book with an original plot nowadays, it's usually, as you mentioned, just: (Strong female protagonist + messed up government + hot boy + love triangle )- originality =😴😪😴
Hi, hello, hi, I'm a senior in high school and would love for you to be a beta reader for the book I'm writing !! It assumes filipino lore is "right" meaning that filipino creatures are the things that go bump in the night. (It's supposed to be education for the school project I'm doing it for so you should be able to learn quite a bit about filipino culture, creatures, and history). This is only one aspect of the book as it follows Bea, a Filipino American high school student, who gets wrapped up into the world after something very strange happens. I won't get too much into it here but if you're interested please let me know !! P.S. I love your videos !!
Rare Pepe Thanks so much! I really appreciate you reaching out!! Unfortunately because of my busy schedule I don't think I'll have the time to beta read for you. Good luck with your novel, it's such an interesting idea for a story!
(Here via the sidebar.) Thank you for this thought provoking commentary and discussion. This is the type of content I long for when I watch Book Tube! I look forward to catching up.
wow you totally deserve more subscribers!! i don't read much, i don't have the patience, but i loved listening to everything u had to say it was super interesting!
The Selection is a sad example of this- it had an interesting premise (what if you put the Bachelor, a reality TV show where a man looks for an ideal woman among many, in a dystopian setting) but the execution was extremely sloppy with clichéd characters and a love triangle so bad it made me cry. Is it bad that I want you to read it so I can watch you rip it to shreds?
I watched a video about dystopias and his take was that dystopias are warnings against utopias. Dystopias are utopias places in the real world. These idealistic ideas work well as ideas, but when placed in reality they turn into dystopias. (It’s thanks to dystopian novels actually that whenever someone or some organization offers a perfect society or a perfect fix to our society’s flaws that I back away slowly lol. Yes perfection is something good to strive for but ultimately humans are imperfect, so in order to have a perfect society you’d have to take out the human part of it. A perfect society would not have a place for us in it. I’ve always thought that was funny. It’s meant to be FOR us and yet in a perfect society there is no real place for us.) Back onto the topic. I really think it comes down to the fact that a lot of these newer ya dystopian writers don’t have anything to say. Like there’s a story, but they don’t have anything to say, it’s all empty. I think the best writers go into writing having something to say or a feeling they want to evoke, they write with PURPOSE. There are a lot of writers now, I think, who don’t write with purpose and so you get purposeless, empty, uninspired books from that.
This is a really good video. I love dystopian novels like The Darkest Minds but it isn't what a dystopian is meant to be like a society striving for perfection
More of Utopia fame drew on an earlier work, The Republic/Plato. The author who took perhaps the biggest objection to utopian thinking was Machiavelli, who in The Prince took a more realist approach. Ironically it was he who began making politics technical...how dystopian. )-: Some myths covered utopias & dystopias side by side: see myths of loss of paradise. :-)
This was a great video, thank you for lauching the discussion. I agree that dystopian can get very shallow, hopefully authors will take that into consideration before launching the next thing. :P
LeaTheHatless I hope so! Knowing the industry though, I doubt it. A lot of it comes down to the publishers and what's in right now is easy entertainment. Hopefully we start to see a change though!
Solid video, I think you make great points about the origins of dystopian literature that I wouldn't have thought of. If I could make a suggestion, I think less jump cuts would make things flow better. I find them a little jarring in a video with a serious/academic tone. Also pretty sure you meant "The Handmaid's Tale." Aaaanndd around the 5:30 mark you use "dystopian" as a noun. Ok done being a stickler don't hate me bye :3
I might get hate for saying this. Haha. The third book of Divergent explains why the were separated. Genetic modifying or something like that (it's been a while since I read it) The whole city was actually a testing area, the people who made the city were actually making an environment where they were hoping a Divergent person would develope, but as years went on, the people forgot what they were there for and mistakenly believed the Divergent were a flaw in the system. They even forgot the people outside that City existed. But, Divergent is a guilty pleasure for me, so. xD
No hate from me. I know that Veronica Roth did try to explain it in the end, but it felt flimsy. The fact that neither you, nor I, remember the details means that it wasn't an impactful revelation so much as a feeble justification. That being said, while I think the Divergent series is terrible at being dystopian, I enjoy the books in the same guilty pleasure way. I enjoy it for the characters and the action :)
Jordan Harvey I didn't mean hate from you specifically, more so from some commenters on RUclips in general for "defending" a book they hate. Happens a lot. Haha. I said I liked a show once in a comment and someone told to go die. xD
Just a little defense for Divergent - there is a reason given to the people being so one dimensional in the last book. I'm not saying it's quality literature, just that there is more to why the premise of the world is what it is. People often criticize the series for that without mentioning the twist that explains everything. The last book is still a huge disappointment though. I'm also sick of all the YA dystopias today and have read too many already simply because that seems to be all that's popular these days. I was even hesitant to read the Handmaid's Tale because I was sick of the dystopia fad but I'm glad I didn't let it stop me from reading a good classic.
I have read all the Divergent books and in the end you get to know the explanation behind why many characters are somewhat divergent and why many atleast older only have one trait
Haven't even watched the vid yet but, if you are tired of generic dystopian stuff id recommend: Folding Beijing by Hao Jingfang, The Acts of Caine by Matthew Stover, The Three Body Problem by Liu Cixin
I completely agree! Dystopian nowadays means bland protagonist and love triangle :/ it's a shame
Valerie C. So true! Why'd you have to go and do that YA???
what a strange cough, have you seen a dr? ;)
Valerie C. I just want a dystopian fiction book with a group full of boys and girls and they are all just friends.
+Gabi Walker unwind by Neil Shusterman, haven't read it but people have told me it's fantastic
Yet she likes twilight
My dad's friend writes YA and dabbles in dystopia. One time, my dad sent her a text that said, "Hey, can you tell me the name of that one dystopian young adult book? You know, the one about a group of teenagers in a rotting society ruled by adults making laws they don't understand who are roped into complex politics they used to have no business in, in order to form an active resistance movement to overthrow the government and start a new order of unity?"
😂😂😂
This needs to like have a hundred likes
That sounds like Divergent, but really have no idea.
@@marwaalkhalaf7784 Wish granted!
Mrytle Romilly I think that’s the point. No offense.
It really do be like that sometimes
In my opinion, George Orwell's "1984" is the definitive dystopian novel. I get the feeling that, in a real life dystopia, people would end up less like Katniss Everdeen, and more like Winston Smith.
No one would dare to stand up because if you do you'll be lined up along a wall with all your resistance friends and shot.
To be honest, I don't think 1984 is all that relevant nowadays. People love to bring 1984 up whenever any government does something they dislike, yet the scenario presented in the book is not at all what is happening here. We are not headed towards a totalitarian government with absolute control, but the exact opposite of that - a neoliberal corpocracy where the vast majority of people will end up unemployed and at the complete mercy of the "free market" in giant slums overrun by criminals, and a dying planet that only the extremely rich may comfortably live on.
This is honestly a much worse dystopia than 1984, and also much more realistic, but nobody seems to even think about that. I guess saying "government bad" is easier...
IMO 1984 is literally North Korea (I honestly suspect they simply read it and decided to emulate it over there). Brave New World is way more pertinent to the Western society - the total downfall of morality, drugs everywhere, disposable children etc. Frankly, both prospects are equally horrible, just in different ways.
@@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus yeah hyper-capitalism seems to be the trend now in the US. But when talking about countries like north korea it's a little relevant.
1984 is important as a mean to understand fascism and fascism-tangent ideologies, but Brave New World is much more relevant to today's world; fear and enforcement has its limits, and a man is able to jump into the fire if it is to save his child, but he's just as able to throw the child into the bronze bull if he has enough faith. And faith is the key word here, because _the system_ is a cult and a religion, and it manipulates through the sustitution of the perceived reality. In Brave New World _the system_ is fordism, while in most of our world it is now the neoliberal ideology.
I think the hunger games was a great book that brought up a lot of real messages and symbolism that reflected our own current society, but since it was widely read by pre-teens and younger audiences, a lot of the important themes in the novel went kind of over their heads and the focus was pulled more towards the romance and love triangle in the novel. When it gained popularity there was a bunch of copycats who just took the idea of a corrupt society with rebels and romance and then ran with it.
Agreed. But even The Hunger Games book (first realeased 2008) is a similiar story with Battle Royal by Koushun Takami (first realesed 1999).
Can people not read books for entertainment? She did write the books for pre-teens and normal sized teens, anyway.
I get your point, but I have yo disagree with people copying it. I feel like when people say that there are so many books that copied THG, people just tend to look at the tiniest similarities and just say they were copying. Like, what’s wrong with any other book having a female protagonist, or a post-apocalyptic world, or romance? THG isn’t the only book that’s allowed to have all of that.
The funny thins is, the author didn't really want to deep dive into the love triangle but her editor told her to because that was more relevant to some teens that read it instead of the fact that they were literally in the middle of a war lmao
Recent Distopia=The Maze Runner series. Completely nonsense authority figures? Check. No basis in real, actual problems? Check. The fate of the entire world somehow lies in the shoulders of a post-pubescent underdog for not even close to a believable reason? Check. For real, this is the first series (aside from James Bond) that has made me say "the movies are way better"
Agreed
Now that you mention it, maze runner really is that tbh. Hunger games still is my favourite dystopian novel
They should’ve revealed that Newt and Sonya are siblings in the sequels not prequels
This is a really good video, well done. I love to see someone here on booktube who can think critically
Chapter Barbara thanks so much!!
one man's utopia is another man's dystopia.
Naum Rusomarov With many modern dystopia novels, the author, in telling what's wrong, shows what s/he thinks is right. The issue is when I (the reader) disagree with the author. The extent of that disagreement influences what I think of the protagonist, other characters, and the story as a whole.
Not really. A utopia is a perfect world based on an individuals beliefs on how such a world would come to exist. A dystopia is not the opposite of a utopia. It is not an imperfect world. It's simply a not perfect world. A bad world. One person's utopia is not another's dystopia. Only that person can create their own dystopia. Someone's utopia would make me unhappy probably but it wouldn't always end up to be my dystopia.
Deep
So deep brah
This brings me back to my freshman year.
I don't read a lot of dystopian, but The Giver was one of the books that struck me going through middle school. Comparing that to (at least the movie) Divergent... no competition, Divergent is garbage. It's childish and I kept thinking how the society as a whole was deeply flawed from the get go and all the characters needed to be as stupid as they were portrayed in order for the thing to even work. Not only that but how the ever-loving heck does a society work where the majority of your society is destitute that doesn't contribute and basically waits to die and serves as just a big scary the protag might be afraid of falling into?
nightinthetwilight True! I read the giver pretty late to the game, but even then I liked it more than Divergent!!
I wondered, while watching "Divergent", "How did the revolution not happen, y'know, immediately?"
The giver made me super upset when I read it.
The movie was also good and really showed how wrong later titles got the dystopian genre wrong.
nightinthetwilight I agree with you I loved The Giver(I didn't like the movie though) but when I read books like The Hunger Games, Divergent and The Maze Runner they lost the true meaning of the Dystopian genre they use it as a way to make the world/setting look cool and edgy when dystopia is not about that, this also shows in the movies.
One reason I feel the genre hasn't done well recently is the incredibly rigid formula they seem to follow. You suggest this, but I would like to add that dystopian does not have to be post-apocalyptic, or even futuristic. Take "Lord of the Flies", it's a dystopian at heart, designed by lost children. One thing "1984" (fabulous book by the way, read it now) gets right, is that it does not take on the burden of the whole planet. It realistically describes a single country/continent and its relationship with the rest of the world. The country focused on in "1984" feels a lot like modern day North Korea.
Dackson Flux I've read 1984 and I loved it, such a great read!
Dackson Flux I would say Animal Farm is the perfect Dystopian, and everyone needs to read it.
1984 is extremely overrated.
YA in general is great at taking interesting genres and dumbing them down until they reach their shittiest extremes.
Lisa Zoria agreed, though I still think there are some great YA novels out there!
Orwell didn't write 1984 for edgy teens. Maybe that's why the book is one of the best in history...?
@@JordanHarveybooks name one truly fantastic YA novel. I've never seen a YA becoming a literary classic
@@spartanghost_17
What about C.S Lewis's books or Catcher in the Rye
@@viperblitz11 1984 is NOT the best book in history, far from it.
I remember when Divergent first came out and everyone was raving about it and it became the new obsession over The Hunger Games. And I really enjoyed The Hunger Games series. And when I read Divergent it was exactly like you said. Like humans are not just one trait. And it felt unrealistic. And the fact Tris was 'divergent' even though everyone acted basically like normal people. While some people may disagree, I feel like Tris paved the way for young female heroine fights big government and has either one or several guys interested.
I really need to read more dystopias, but of what I've read, Unwind is my personal favourite. It touches on too many issues to list that have actual relevance to current society, some key ones being organ donation and unwanted/problem children. It completely blew my mind when I first read it, and it made 13-year-old me think a hell of a lot more than the Hunger Games or Divergent ever did (as much as I still enjoyed them).
jennisfalling thanks! I think you're the second one that's recommended it so now I really want to give it a read! Cheers!
"Unwind" holds a special place in my heart. Try "Uglies" by Scott Westerfeld. I haven't read them in quite some time (they precede Unwind, Hunger Games, Divergent, etc...and came out around the same time as "Twilight") so they probably had flaws I didn't notice as a teen, but they also spoke to me on a deeper level. "Hunger Games", at least as a movie, admittedly felt to me like a knock-off compared to "Uglies".
Jordan Harvey "Unwind" is YA taking controversial to its peak in what I've seen from YA. It's delightful and VERY refreshing to read something not catered to the more timid members of society.
OMG fellow Unwind lover that book is so poignant and just amazing!I personally think that book is so underatted.I am eager for the movie or a tv show:)
I love that book series to bits. It's so great, the plot and characters are amazing and it's thought provoking
It's not a novel, it's not even YA, but if you're into anime or might be interested in it, Psycho Pass is good dystopia series. Basically in the future, Japan developed a system called Psycho Pass that can measure people's psyche and determine their probability to commit violence based on it, called the Crime Coefficient. It works well, crime rate's down, but the downsides are people having to actually mind their stress level, being stressed about keeping their stress down, people being ostracized for having even a very slightly higher CC than normal, people with high CC would be confined in a psychiatric centre basically forever if it never goes down due to so many human factors. The main characters are a rookie Inspector, basically the detectives, and an Enforcer, anyone who has a high CC that refuses to go down but decided to be put into use as basically the K - 9, with Inspectors being their handler and they're not allowed to get out of the HQ without Inspector supervision.
Warning though, it does contain gore and depictions of sexual assault.
Theres also One Piece. Which most people don't realize is actually a well written Dystopia.
@@heyarnold7256 Oh yea, that makes sense. The world is literally ruled by a government of marines.
@@Tamaki742 Theres also the secret immortal King who has been ruling the world from the shadows by convincing the world he doesn't exist. But here, this explains it better: ruclips.net/video/QokSqPHzZII/видео.html
Basically like the Minority Report movie
@@Altered_dj Pretty much, yeah, but the worldbuilding is better, I think.
My favorite recent example of a dystopian society came from a Netflix series called Black Mirror, a Twilight Zone-style anthology series that's basically, 'Technology is great, but people can be crap and keep finding the worst ways of implementing it.' The first episode of season 3 'Nosedive' showed a very unnerving kind of dystopia. The society in this episode use an all-encompassing social media app where people can rate each other from 1 to 5 stars for every little thing that they do. Life in this society is easier when you have a higher rating, which also seems to tie directly into class status. What you end up getting in this society are people that are trying to out-nice each other, not because it's the right thing to do, but because they are vainly trying to up their own ratings.
Suteivun Oh my gosh, I LOVE black mirror!!
i adore black mirror, but i honestly don't get why people seem so fascinated by this episode. it felt very predictable and bland to me. definitely one of the weaker black mirror episodes. i also felt like it didn't make me ask any deeper inner questions of "i've never thought about this. what would i do in this situation?" the concept seemed like just anybody could've come up with it tbh and i hold black mirror to higher standards than that bc usually their ideas are things i could never dream up (or at least not to that extent/with that much detail)
@@JordanHarveybooks I love Black Mirror
One of THE best dystopian novels I've read is the Unwind series. Seriously it's brilliant and extremely thought provoking.
If you're a fan of dystopia, give it a try!
Orphan Magenta I will! You're not the first person to recommend it to me
Jordan Harvey Great! I hope you enjoy it :)
Yesssss
I'm about to read Undivided soon. I have to wait to get it at the library
Orphan Magenta hmm cheers. I'll recommend the Chaos Walking trilogy. So GOOD!!!!
I loved the Unwind series; it was so well done! And a great idea!
The minute you said how far would one take to achieve a perfect world, I immediately thought of Light from Death Note. And man, he was willing to kill all criminals to remove evil in the world. After reading the story, I realized how much one would have to sacrifice to achieve perfection. Idk if you've ever read it or watched the show (not the movie it's horrible) I'd recommend it to you. Idk if manga/anime is your thing, but it's worth checking out. It's not dystopian but it does heavily touch upon justice and creating a perfect world. Loved the video btw. ^_^
Rhea Ayane in my opinion lights "perfect world" was never going to work because he only cared about getting rid of the effects of a bad society not the causes. He killed criminals but didn't do anything to make a society where there would be no need for crime. His solution for unemployment was to just murder the unemployed. That's not sustainable. All stick no carrot
Which movie the Japanese one or the American one?
+kpoplove
Rhea was talking about the Japanese manga and anime, I was talking about the anime. The movies don't have enough time to include him killing poor people too, they just focus on killing criminals and killing the FBI trying to catch Kira.
For some weird reason I knew someone would comment something about Death Note lol. I'm surprised to see I was right. Light's plan from the beginning was flawed and would not have created a perfect society. The whole thing is just sad.
Horse Mann part of me supported Light at the beginning... And I know many as well. I know It's wrong but I also think that's why It's a masterpiece, It challenges What you really think If some things became possible. Most of the time when you ask people What would they do If they had an invisibility power they tell you ilegal stuff, from sth innocent like watching movies without paying, to cheating in exams and even worse stealing. It's funny how we humans work in societies
Basically, lack of pushing the bounderies of our thoughts and challenging what we know is what is wrong with dystopian literature nowadays.
I agree with this.
I don't think a book has to be "deep" and "saying something about the human race" to be good. I'm just tired of these overused dystopia tropes of SPECIAL GIRL WITH POWERS!!! CUTE BOY IN LOVE WITH HER!!! ALSO ANOTHER BOY!! THEY R SIXTEEN AND SOMEHOW KNOW HOW TO START A REVOLUTION!!!
Winter Addict I love many books that aren't "deep" but I also think that the dystopian genre has to have some degree of commentary. As I said in my video, until the last couple of years it had to be a society that strove for perfection but failed, and unfortunately that definition of the genre has changed since the YA dystopian boom.
I have several social activists that I consider friends or at least acquaintances. Their age range from 15 to 25, and after interacting with them I knew that the "16 year old who overthrows the government" is bullshit, haha. It's not entirely _impossible_ esp since the 1998 revolution in Indonesia was made possible by young activists who were about 18-23, but it's also not that easy and, if I may assume, is very rare.
+Katie Martin SSSSSSSSTTTOOOOOPPP RRRROOOOOAAAASSSSTTTTIIIINNNNGGGG MMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Thank you for this insight. I just started working on a story idea that is a blend of dystopia, sci-fi and fantasy, so having a message behind it is something I need to keep in mind. My idea is in two parts:
Part 1/Book 1 shows a dystopian world where most of humanity has been wiped out and people now live in cities that are encased by domes which they call The Wall. My protagonist ends up outside the Wall, meets Outlanders, and learns about what has really happened to the world, what the Wall really is and who put it there - possibly alien/supernatural beings who caused the decline of humanity and now keep the survivors penned in like concentration/preservation camps. With the reduced human population, magic (I want to use another word for it) which is a life fore for these supernatural beings and was spread too thin to have any affect before is now returning. The Walls keep it out of the cities, but people and the environment exposed to it begin to change or develop power. This is the genesis of a new world and the people in it don't understand what is happening yet, so the reader would be learning just as they are.
Part 2/Book 2 would be set a few hundred years later after the Wall around each city has been taken down and we see how the world, societies, cultures and religions have evolved. There are now Kings and Queens, schools of magic, conflicts between magic and technology, religious extremist groups, and creatures like the Phoenix, Basilisk, Griffons, Dragons, Raven Mockers and more who are actually people. The history of this world will tie into the story and characters of Book 1.
(Think Harry Potter meets Game of Thrones)
Book 1 might actually be a prequel for Book 2, showing how this fantasy world which used to be a world like ours came to be.
the real issue with dystopian fiction (especially YA) is that it's forgotten that dystopia is a political genre, and a radical one at that. a lot of modern dystopian fiction basically just reinforces weak liberal capitalist beliefs of "individuality". it's failing to challenge the norm in every way.
Nena Yes, well said!
I am taking a course on Utopia this year so this video came at the perfect time! More's "Utopia", while depicting a perfect society, is also critical of whether such a society is desirable. The people live in abundance and are not overworked, but they are also not free, they are within the boundaries of what is allowed. More himself is saying that it is impossible to have a perfect society, and later authors reflect that. I love this topic, I think I want to do my dissertation on it.
Sasha Bunakova Thank you! As I said in the video, I haven't read it (yet!) so that's good to know! I absolutely love dystopian novels though so it's definitely on my list. It's definitely an interesting topic to do a dissertation on so I wish you the best of luck!
Sasha Bunakova I strongly recommend the book Red Star by Alexander Bogdanov. It was written in the aftermath of the 1905 Russian revolution and describes an idealised communist society on Mars. The author was an early member of the bolsheviks and the book was popular at the time in Russia. It makes a good contrast to We by Yevgeny Zamyatin which was published twelve years later, in 1920, and was anti-collectivist, something of its antithesis, and which George Orwell used as a blueprint for Nineteen-Eighty-four.
I will definitely get on that! I've read 'We' for a Russian Literature course and really loved it. It's very interesting to see the contrasts and similarities between different authors.
Sasha Bunakova Glad to help. If you're looking at the subject of utopia it's difficult to get better than to look at the Russian revolution (especially because this year is the 100th anniversary), the art, the ideas within it. It's the ultimate example of utopian ideals being put into practice. Too bad it all went so wrong.
Sasha Bunakova Another work I'd recommend at least knowing about is 'Daedalus; or Science of the Future' by J B S Haldane (who was a relatively well known biologist in pre-war Britain). It's a pamphlet, written in 1923, predicting, among other things, a future of exogenesis - growing babies outside the womb - and was the root of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World - which, of course, is the other big dystopian novel beside Nineteen-Eighty-four.
*Dystopian book recommendation*
I recommend the Uglies series, because it's bomb, and deals with lots of dubious morality and corruption in government. Along with questioning things like individuality, beauty standards in society, the effects of peer pressure, and a few other things I don't want to spoil for any potential readers. Yeah our protagonist is a young woman (who starts off as a teenager in book 1) who eventually leads to the overthrowing of the corrupt government, but the first book was published in 2005 so it actually predates the Hunger Games which flung that plot into mainstream media like a live grenade.
Yes! It does seem pretty shallow at first but the more you think about it the deeper it gets. And I love how Tally is much more an anti-hero than a hero who tries the best but just makes it worse and worse. But what I love the most about it is that there are moments where you wonder if that fictional world is not that bad at all actually, because they *are* all happy and there are no wars any more and no oppression and everybody is the same. You can sort of understand why Dr Cable acts the way she acts (and oh boy, she is so sarcastic and cold, she is an magnificent piece of shit, way better than the evil lady from Divergent).
Yes, the love triangle is annoying, but then there also is the amazing frenemy ship with Tally and Shay.
And [spoilers] I love how it actually subverts the "girl destroys evil system" bit a bit because even if Tally does that, she also becomes guardian of what was good about the system at the end?
I completely agree. I have been rereading some YA Dystopian and when I reread the Hunger Games I realized I had forgotten how great of a book it was. Then I reread Divergent and was majorly disappointed. I am working on outlining a dystopian novel I plan to write and I was struggling with what I wanted the plot to be. I have a utopia planned out but this video helped me pin down what I want the central conflict to be. Thank you!
Totally agree.
I remember when I first read Divergent I first thought of how many directions the author could just run with , like the idea of all these groups believing that past civilizations fell because they were ultimately lying to themselves too much or weren't brave enough or selfless or smart enough to stop society from crumbling . Philosophically it would have been very interesting for character arcs ; and as someone who went from abnegation to dauntless, it would have been interesting to see Tris be affected by those different societies philosophies as she adjusted . And since she was "divergent" maybe that meant she understood that all factions had valid points and best worked when they were together....or the opposite , maybe she thinks one faction was ultimately right in POV or maybe she thought they were all complete and created a faction and whole culture of her own ....
Lots of room for originality here
Thank goodness. I agree. The Hunger Games is the last great YA dystopia series in recent years. It's really a shame the the recent YA dystopias haven't been able to live up to its message.
Utopia isn't a novel, it's philosophical work. It's actually quite similar in style to Rousseau's state of nature. More simply describes life in utopia without concentrating on a person or group. It reads like a documentary. Utopia actually has a lot of communistic ideas and it's funny that Henry VIII actually founded Utopia and praised it. It's really easy to read and super interesting. You should give it a go !
Theonlydays There is a novel called Utopia by Sir Thomas More and that what she was referencing
Theonlydays I said "some consider it to be one of the first novels" because it's debated whether or not it is. It's an early fictional work without a doubt but historians and those who study classics and literature disagree on if it's a novel or not. Novels had a different meaning back then so it kind of depends on whether you qualify it during the time it was written or by current standards.
Henry VIII was very found of it because a Utopia is the very true goal of every tyrant. He thought he could manage his subjects as peons and even tried to change their religion to please his ambition.
It is a very interesting book. Some suggested it was a veiled satire to humanists, priests and politicians.
I am talking about that exact book, which isn't a novel 😄
Fun tidbit: “Utopia,” in the original Greek, literally means “nowhere” or “no place.”
Dude i'm greek and hadn't noticed the etymology lol
I also feel that the romance in dystopia is mishandled. Rather than using it to show yet another flaw or say anything, its often either cheaply shoehorned in, or worse, becomes the whole story while the dystopia is just a backdrop for the same three characters to have a romance. And I don't think romance and dystopia have to be mutually exclusive (look at 1984), but when its just the three cardboard cutouts tangled in the same love triangle again whilst practically ignoring the world crumbling down, it's like, what's the point of this setting?
YES. I know, it's the worst. I think love plays a huge role in humanity and oftentimes it's not explored to it's fullest potential in dystopian novels.
"A ClockWork Orange" is a great dystopian novel.
How is it dystopian?
Thank you for this. I've been wanting to write a dystopian novel lately, and now I know what not to do
I agree, I love a book that gives me lingering thoughts. I read Fahrenheit 451 recently in my English class, and now I can't stop thinking how our society is turning to be like it
You are by far the most eloquent and analytical RUclipsrs I've ever watch. This video made me happy. A lot of booktubers could learn a thing or two from you.
DoraLee Mercurio Thank you so much, that's so sweet!
Yessssss, this is what I've been saying! A dystopian novel that doesn't somewhat reflect the flaws of current society isn't worth much imo. 1984 was written as a response to the Soviet Union and a dangerously extreme sense of nationalism (which is why it tends to still be relevant today). The Handmaid's Tale attacked the way that society treats women by imagining the most extreme version of those patriarchal "values." The Hunger Games was a great commentary on voyeurism through media and the way tyrannical governments beat down on lower classes. But then, you have books where it's just "OH YEAH IT'S ILLEGAL TO FEEL ANY KIND OF AFFECTION." "WE'VE SPLIT THE ENTIRE WORLD INTO FOUR HOGWARTS HOUSE LIKE 'FACTIONS,'" and those don't...really feel relevant. (I mean the "It's illegal to love" thing could be a statement about marriage equality, I GUESS, but since the main couples are usually straight white average teenage couples, not really a very effective one?)
I agree; dystopia has a lot of meaning only because it is a preventative tale, and it should make us think about our own society--which it draws many parallels from--critically. When 1984 came out, it was calling out government surveillance and dictatorships during the war. The Handmaid's Tale was written during a time when the next president in office stripped away a lot of progress feminists made during the previous offices and the objectification of women. The Hunger Games is about rigid class systems, apathy to those whose problems we do not share, the glorification of violence in entertainment, etc. And you can even say a dystopian work has succeeded when the audience has realised it, and prevented the actuality from happening in the real world society.
I literally just heard of one where people are born with two souls. And eventually, one soul would take over, killing the other. But the conflict is, our main character is coexisting with her other soul. So she must die, and the government is after her life.
Uhm...
Fuck? Just find another genre to label yourself as dude. It's completely unrealistic, totally technologically unattainable, and just...it isn't a THING. It just isn't a dystopia, by definition. There is no feasible issue here, man. Works like that are diluting the genre and its intentions. (I'm sure there were more layers to it than that, but the premise is too ridiculous already)
I did a bit of googling and I think I found the book you described (What's Left of Me by Kat Zhang), and judging by the reviews it's exactly as lacking in message as you say which I find really disappointing. The premise is actually pretty promising in terms of commentary on society, since nuance and duality often take a backseat to extremism in today's world and the double souls could have worked as an excellent allegory for this. Young adult dystopia novels have pretty decent premises most of the time, but then in execution they turn out really poor because the author doesn't seem to want to do the work of developing a real theme, perhaps because they underestimate the intellect of their audience. It's a real shame.
Moore never actually set out to say his book was an example of a "utopia." It was actually a satirical criticism on the way English society was trending at the time and he needed to be very, very careful about criticizing it at the time, thus his true point went over everyone's heads. It's actually a very funny book and not meant to be serious about humans setting up what he thinks is a utopia.
lumpyspacecadet Interesting. It's on my list so I'm hoping to read it soon! From what I had read online while researching this video, I thought it was what I had mentioned in the video, but thank you for clarifying! I guess I was misinformed.
I'm super late to the discussion, I discovered your channel very recently.
I agree with everything you said. Recent YA dystopian novels are mostly focused on the romance or coming-of-age story of the main characters and the society is a cheap, watered down mix of other established, well-known dystopias. There is no message or social commentary, just Teenage Main Character and Hot Love Interest trying to overthrow Cartoon Villain Authority. The only reason some of these books are dystopian is because it was the most popular and easy to market genre at the time they were published. We're seeing it happen again and again in YA, the same formulaic story, the same overused tropes, and an underdeveloped dystopian/wizarding/fairy/etc. society used as a backdrop.
Yup, that pretty much sums it up!
As I understand from Hunger Games, Panem wasn't meant to be a utopia. It started after some unknown series of events left the world in ruins, and Panem was established in the aftermath. Then the Districts rebelled against the Capitol, the Capitol won the war (but allowed District 13 to be independent because the were the only District with nukes) and established the games as a way of both keeping the districts in a state of humiliation, and by showering the winning district with favors for a year so that they'd see each other as competitors rather than allies. Within poorer districts, the Capitol encouraged class rivalries by making it so that receiving the equivalent of food stamps required you to submit extra copies of your name to be tribute, so that those who needed this would resent the people in their districts who didn't. Real world dictatorships usually prefer their populace to be united against a common external enemy (such as Eastasia, whom we've always been at war with), but in the world of the Hunger Games, no such enemy exists (other than possibly District 13, which was itself part of Panem), so setting them against each other is an interesting idea. I also like how Katniss's status as the "chosen hero" is deliberately used in universe as propaganda by the rebels, who meanwhile ignore that she's a kid suffering from PTSD which only gets worse as the series progresses.
What killed the Hunger Games was the love triangle (shocker) and the fact that the villains were really stupid. Real world dictators present themselves to the common people as being simultaneously ubermensch and ordinary red blooded folk who are just like you. Blatantly flaunting their wealth and extravagance, especially to the poorer districts, is the kind of idiocy that gets your monarchs sent to the guillotine.
Brave New World is so amazing! A true master piece that's hard to understand tbh
Isn't The Hunger Games also a ripoff?
Plus, if we're looking for a "deep commentary on society's flaws", I highly doubt that YA novels are the place to look for. Sadly, the industry currently focuses on selling easy entertainment and if following the usual formula ("young "normal" girl who overthrows a corrupt government while being involved in some kind of love triangle") is what sells, then they'll use it. Sad but true.
Connie Unfortunately you're right. It's definitely not impossible to make YA meaningful, but nobody seems to care to.
I haven't read The Hunger Games in a while but I felt that the plot was reflective on the emotionlessness of capitalism and commodity fetishism. It's very easy to apply a Marxist perspective on it. Then again, haven't read it in years and am probably wrong.
The Hunger Games isn't a rip-off, despite the claims of salty Battle Royale fans. The concept of deadly games has existed long before either franchise and will exist long after them.
well YA is suited for YA.
Do YAs _really_ care about anything too deep meaning or thoughtful? The majority? No.
Why put effort into something for shallow minded people? Just use formulas that are proven to work and you get profit.
Just asking, I'd hear that claim for some time but I haven't read those books, so... can't compare. Plus, no book owns a concept; you're right.
Just got done reading Neal Shusterman's "Scythe" and I've been dying for a video like this. COMPLETELY missed the mark in trying to be a dystopia. Not because it had a "mean-bad government;" because they're basically were no problems in this society. There were just a few assholes that then ended up making no difference whatsoever on the world at large.
*standing ovation*
Thank you
Had been searching for intelligent, insightful (yet not too tiring XD) content on RUclips, and I'm so glad I stumbled upon this channel! It's perfect!😁
Thanks for making these and can't agree with you more!
michelle21617 Thanks! I'm glad you like it!!
Hunger Games is where it all started. I just REALLY BADLY want to read a dystopian story that focuses on world building heck even get political! And trash out the relationships, one of the huge flaws. Basically a dystopian story that is strictly No Romance coz its too overdone.
_ ShockJin If that's the case, read pre-hunger games dystopian! Lots of good books out there!!
I would suggest to you, 1984. The characters are a reflection of the twisted world, not outliers who stand out among the sheep. There's a romance subplot, but there's something indescribable about how it's executed that sets it apart from YA trash.
Read the windup girl! It is a fairly recent dystopian novel (2012) , and talks a lot about climate change. Hell, you can even read Battle Royale too, hunger games is based off heavily from that book
_ ShockJin Read Animal Farm.
Try the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. First book is Furies Of Calderon. His world building is quite good, there's a slight predictability to the book but I think it's easily forgiven. It's one of Jim Butcher's lesser known and shorter works; only 6 books.
Congrats on growing from 100 to 4,000 subscribers in a few months! Keep it up!
Thanks so much!
I'm so happy you think like this! Glad there are other people that share my view! Great video! I'm currently writing my own novel in a dystopian setting and listening to your views shows me that I'm on the right track with the general theme of it!
I would like to read a book about a dystopian society, and the protagonist of this story is not a perfect human but he/she tries to chance the corrupt system but in the end fails ( but there is a little hope in the end). Are books like that exist?
Sakura Yuki Try 1984!
1984 and my personal favorite is actually The Last Book In The Universe. It's less about overthrowing the government in TLBITU but more of a personal adventure and growth dealing with literature itself
the handmaids tail is like that its reveled in the epilogue that Gilead did fall becaue people are studing the text after the fact but we dont know when it did or if offred had anyting to do with it
Sakura Yuki All of George Orwell Dystopian novels.
Try the short story Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. You basically described the story in one sentence. It's my favorite short story.
In Divergent people aren't literally only one thing, their aptitude for factions is just what they have the most in. Like when you take those tests in middle school, in key stone, or social studies, to see if you're extrovert or introvert, most (emphases on most) people don't score a 100% on that test no matter which answer you get, the result is which answer got the highest percentage. Scoring an 80% on introvert on that test makes you an introvert (switch if you're extrovert), you aren't just 80% introvert and 20% extrovert, you're just an introvert. This doesn't mean you don't have extrovert tendencies, you obviously do, or that 20% wouldn't be there.
In the Divergent universe test if you scored 50% amity, 5% erudite, 10% dauntless, 10% candor, and 15% abnegation, you wouldn't be divergent, you'd just be amity. Being divergent is like being an ambevert, a perfect 50-50 split of introvert and extrovert. Not impossible, but less common (especially if society were killing them whenever they found them).
_It's just rant about the movie after this point, so feel free to stop reading._
Which is also part of the reason why I don't like the movies as much as the books, they make it were people are only one thing, and give divergent people degrees of divergentness, which is stupid and convoluted. Divergence is equal aptitude in more than one faction virtue, one divergent can't be more or less equal than another without one being unequal.
Along with making Tris a perfectly balanced divergent with all five faction virtues, which would make her a perfect human being (which she isn't in movie, because she tries to hide the truth in her trial at Candor), while in the books she was only a perfect split between dauntless and abnegation, which is a lot more believable. Book Tris was flawed, she disliked telling the truth if it hurt her friends, she didn't value knowledge as much as bravery, didn't value it much at all, and she didn't believe in being nice or forgiving to someone who she didn't feel deserve it. Was she brave, yeah, was she willing to sacrifice for others, yeah, did her bravery and selflessness make her perfect, no.
A very interesting Dystopian/Utopian society is the Antarktis in the Legend trilogie, where you get Status points for good actions and so on. Sadly, we didn't see much of Antarktis in the books
An articulate argument! I agree that many ya dystopian books are lacking these days. another gripe of mine is romance tends to eclipse any sort of societal commentary in these books! Red Rising is a good trilogy that has a lot of political and societal commentary in its fictional caste system. I remember the Pretties series by Scott Westerfeld also had a lot to say about social media watching you. The party lifestyle of the pretties reminded me of soma in A Brave New World - people are controlled by making them oblivious and happy, but taking away thought. However I reread it this year and I have to say I liked it more when I was a tween! Still a compelling series, I would argue.
Claire Guthrie I read Uglies and Pretties back in junior high and I remember liking them, but I don't think I'd reach for them again. I can definitely see where you got that parallel from though. It totally has brave new world vibes!
Interesting that you brought up More's Utopia in your video. Personally, I'd argue that Plato's The Republic is probably the ur-example of Utopian literature. Indeed, Brave New World was a critique of it, as well as some of the Utopian fiction written by H.G. Wells.
I feel like you read my mind and made this video. This is my exact problem with recent YA dystopia. There is no logical reasoning as to how the dystopian societies in most series became the way they are.
This helped so much! I'm planning a dystopian and I've never looked so critically to this part of the genre about creating a strong meaning to the society of my book that will answer the question: "What price would you be willing to pay for perfection?" This question is what I need to start things right. I'll seriously write your name in my diary as one of the few persons that are helping me to make my dream come true. Thank you
You're so sweet! Glad this was helpful!!
I would love to read a satirical dystopian novel where the government is ruled by Tumblr and the people are punished for acts of political incorrectness
@ Dyce Averruncus *
"I would love to read a satirical dystopian novel where the government is ruled by Tumblr and the people are punished for acts of political incorrectness"
Ha! I would read that!
I had an idea like that once. It was called "Let Us Gaily Tread the Measure", and was about a society ruled by radical tumblr-feminist-types which marginalised men because of their supposed "male privilege", and where society was structured according to the "progressive stack" mentality.
Careful friends, that's quite the beehive you're kicking.
"The red Queer"
Hahahhahah that would be hilarious!
I love how you don't ramble and get right to the point while being very well organised. You've just gained a new subscriber.
Tamanna Nishee thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed :)
I really enjoyed this discussion and appreciate your critical thinking about some of the problems with YA novels without just bashing them. I'll be looking out for more, subscribed!
Honestly, this video was so refreshing to watch. I was expecting more complaints about how much dystopian YA novels focused on love instead of war, and was pleasantly surprised by an actual literary criticism. I read Brave New World recently, and I really highly recommend it to you and all the other commenters. Adolus Huxley, the author, was WAYYYY ahead of his time (1930-something is the publication date). Warning though: he does use outdated language regarding people of color, but he does seem to have a progressive stance on them and how American society treats them. You can even search for parts of his world's culture that seems to be replicated in our modern society today (it's fascinating: plastic surgery, recreational drugs that are legal and in fact encouraged, 3D movies... This guy was writing during the Great Depression too!). I read it for English class at the beginning of the year and it gave me a lot of thought-provoking material to work with, so yeah! Highly recommended.
Also, you're SO right about new YA dystopians
4:31 “It showed publishers that as long as you have a strong female protagonist and a big bad government for her to overcome, it would sell.” This accurately sums up the latest trio of Star Wars movies. We have a Mary Sue who can do no wrong taking on the galaxy with her magic powers. Yawn. Disney has run storytelling into the ground.
Regarding divergent, I think the idea of the factions is which trait is MOST prominent. In divergents, though, 2 or more traits show higher prominence. Tris, I believe, had equal values for each trait, making her a true divergent. Like, instead of 2%, 10%, 7%, 59%, and remaining, its more like, 20%,20%,20%...
TheDoctorOfThrills That still seems very far off to me. And the characters still contradict that with their personalities I think.
Jordan Harvey Oh its definitely piss poor, i was just clearing the premise up
You talking about Utopia reminded me alot of this one series called Death Note. It made me think alot about the stuff you touched on in this video. If you've heard of it, I guess you'll know what I'm talking about but either way, thanks so much for covering this stuff!!
I'm watching it right now! So good!!
Jordan Harvey omg SERIOUSLY?!?! YESSS YOU ARE OFFICIALLY MY FAVOURITE BOOKTUBER!!!! A book nerd who into anime😢😍 FINALLY.
Also, so glad you like it!!❤
Subscribed! This is probably one of the best discussions on this particular topic (i.e. YA dystopian) that I've seen in a while. The issues you raised really define why I personally cannot enjoy a lot of the YA dystopian novels out there. A lot of it struggles to make a compelling message about our society or to challenge many of the tropes of the genre. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
benji q Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video :)
A great dystopian book is a Japanese novel From the New World (Shinsekai yori) that was adapted into one of the most thought provoking and deep anime series. It's definitely a breath of fresh air compared to most Western dystopias and I can't recommend it enough for fans of the genre
Thank you so much! I'll definitely check it out!!
How I think Divergent could've been better:
Make the factions all encompass one trait, yes, but ONLY that trait. Take Erudite, for example. Say that this Erudite has always been told that they were smart, and therefore thought that they were. They decide to go to Erudite.
At Erudite, they find out that the percieved-by-others-as-smart people greatly exaggerated this trait. Often sounding pretentious, arrogant, and ignorant.
What if the Dsytopia there could be that, yes, you are good at this thing. Let's make it be the only thing you do! Instead of realizing that there are many other facets as well.
Yeeeessss I've been feeling this for years and you put my thoughts into words.
A really good Dystopian novel you might enjoy is The Testing. It's about a world ravaged by a nuclear war, and humanity is living in colonies. In order to distinguish which children would make good leaders/ideal rebuilders of the world, the government has teachers submit which children should be put through the Testing. If he/she passes, the child goes on to a prestigious school where the world-building and leadership things are taught with the intention of sending said children into harsh parts of the wasteland for things like water purification, vegetable genetic testing and new colonies. But the children have to get through the Testing first... Edit: I know it's a trilogy, I've only read the first book, and honestly, I think the first book could stand alone if it wanted to, so yeah, haven't read the other two lol.
All this time I thought dystopia meant a story set in a futuristic world that had peaked then collapsed or dealing with the aftermath of a great despair, like war. I guess I thought so because in The Hunger Games (which was probably my first dystopian novel) there was a war and the society tried to do "better" but got probably everything wrong. So, thanks for actually informing me what a dystopia really is! I guess there mustn't really be a war beforehand to make dystopia happen.
Also this video was posted in August and you said you gained a 100 subs then. Now you have more than 500. Congrats!
Phelan K.C. Thank you!! And there definitely can be a war, but there doesn't have to be! A war is often used because it's a catalyst for change, but again, it could be something else.
That would be Post-Apocalyptic
Salam Almahi Yeah I kinda always thought they go hand-in-hand, kinda like peanut butter and jelly lol
That is only a small, rigid variation of "dystopian" genres. Often period pieces are quite dystopian. It really applies to anything describing an attempt to perfect society controlled by a select few. Governing forces, and their inherent flaws are usually a good sign of dystopia.
Take the "Luxe" series, for example. Not at all futuristic, they take place in the early 1900s and have very realistic themes, concepts, and driving events. The "dystopian" aspect comes from high society, where everything you do is judged based on how much money you have down to whether or not you can publicly mourn the loss of a loved one.
As you could probably tell, I don't consider "dystopian" a stand-alone genre, it's usually more of a theme.
Subscribed! You're amazing. I'm gonna binge-watch all your videos after my exams ♥
Johnny's Angel bc TY won't like me Oh my gosh, you're so sweet! Thank you!!
This is a very interesting discussion video! Thanks more making it!
Jordan, I'm currently writing a dystopian novel that will rock your world, lol. It fits all of your criteria, as well as mine. That's why I've decided to write it. I, too, believe dystopian fiction has had a negative shift from deeper, philosophical questions and answers to plot-heavy page-turners with their only intent being to entertain.
I think that a lot of young adult dystopians use dystopia as a technique to put the YA characters in dangerous situations in a "plausible" way, without interference from parents or responsible adults. This, in a way, puts a lot of agency on the main characters. I agree that the world-building seems poor or underdeveloped, especially in comparison to A Handmaid's Tale or The Road, but that isn't necessarily the selling point either. They want to tell the story of some young adult that falls in love, defies danger and possibly upsets the status quo in the dystopian society.
As someone in children’s publishing, I want everyone to keep in mind that writers are rarely the ones who place a genre on their book, once it will be traditionally published. It’s the editor’s, sakes & marketing teams, etc. who decide on how to brand the book. Not saying the writers weren’t heavily inspired by these books like THG and wanted to write their own version of that but they *may not* have been going for a larger/dystopian message.
So these authors may not necessarily have had it in mind to write a dystopian novel. YA dystopian has become more formulaic so it’s like “does this story hit these marks? Yes? Then it’s dystopian”
I actually really enjoyed the Divergent series and I would argue against some of your criticisms such as the simplistic nature of the 5 castes and the fact that humans do not fall neatly into one category. I feel like the reasoning for the 5 classes based on one defining character trait was in order to highlight precisely this - to create an image of a society that, from the get-go, was built on principles fundamentally opposed to human nature and biology, which is a contentious theme nowadays with many competing ideologies vying for space on the world stage, some of which are in constant fighting opposition to the base human instincts. Furthermore, it was an exploration of the differences of people, through Roth's portrayal of the many vastly different people within the given factions, and showing that people can often be more similar to the members of other factions than of their own.
As well as this, when you talked about how it would be boring for entire groups of characters to be based off one trait, that ignores all the other personality traits that aren't encompassed within the 5, such as ambition, temperance, loyalty and independence, which are all explored deeply by Roth throughout the series, particularly loyalty and independence due to the obvious overriding theme of the series being rebellion and self-actualization.
A large part of the issue with not everybody having "at least some degree of Divergence" comes, if I remember correctly, from the construction of the environment and world in which the story takes place. The prime metric for determining Divergence was the test which relies on decisions and instinct, all of which are discrete, absolute and by no means a sliding scale. As a result of this, I would assume that yes, everybody has some degree of Divergence, but due to the way the test works only people above a certain threshold register as Divergent, which I think is displayed in the form of a percentage reading from Insurgent onwards.
Another facet of the world-building coming into play would be in the backstory revealed in Allegiant - that the 5 castes and the Divergent system as a whole all originate from a genetic engineering programme in humans, which (if a little too conveniently) can function as a fall-back answer for some of the issued raised here like the overwhelming dominance of one trait and the degree of Divergence in different characters, as an aide to explanation and not as the sole Deus Ex Machina, catch-all answer which it may appear to be at first glance.
I've not read these books in some time so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I did really love them when I read them and I'd recommend diving back in if you get the time.
Regardless, great video all-round and I'll be sticking around to watch more in future :)
I feel you. I wouldn't mind the obsession with modern dystopian literature if I couldn't help but feel like it's more or less affecting how people actually view the world today.
Amazing video! This is exactly what I've been looking for!
Gustavo Villegas thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!! :)
What a joy to see a young person talking about books, and so well said. Liked and subscribed! Keep making these videos!
A month ago I bought a brave new world and 1984. Now, a month later I encounter this channel .... I'm not sure if it's a coincidence, but it's at least interesting. I am quite new with this genre so I have no opinion yet, but what you say I will certainly keep in mind when reading 👍🏾👍🏾 + subcriber btw....
I loooove how much went into this video. Great job 😊
TotallyAwkward Bookworm Thanks!
You have become one of my favorite booktubers. I cannot agree with you more and what you have to say
Thank you so much!
I watched only few of your videos but I absolutely love them. You seems to be a very intelligent person and a critical reader. I was searching for such a booktuber for such a long time and searching ended with a success! Keep up the good work.
Beata Jackowska Thanks so much! That’s very kind of you to say :)
@@JordanHarveybooks That's just truth, so no need to!
I totally agree, it's really hard to find a dystopian book with an original plot nowadays, it's usually, as you mentioned, just:
(Strong female protagonist + messed up government + hot boy + love triangle )- originality =😴😪😴
Hi, hello, hi, I'm a senior in high school and would love for you to be a beta reader for the book I'm writing !! It assumes filipino lore is "right" meaning that filipino creatures are the things that go bump in the night. (It's supposed to be education for the school project I'm doing it for so you should be able to learn quite a bit about filipino culture, creatures, and history). This is only one aspect of the book as it follows Bea, a Filipino American high school student, who gets wrapped up into the world after something very strange happens. I won't get too much into it here but if you're interested please let me know !!
P.S. I love your videos !!
Rare Pepe Thanks so much! I really appreciate you reaching out!! Unfortunately because of my busy schedule I don't think I'll have the time to beta read for you. Good luck with your novel, it's such an interesting idea for a story!
Rare Pepe that sounds very interesting.
Rare Pepe Nice! Filipino mythos doesn't get enough love, if you have a Wattpad or social media account related to the project I'll be glad to follow.
Send it to me instead. I'll read it.
(Here via the sidebar.)
Thank you for this thought provoking commentary and discussion. This is the type of content I long for when I watch Book Tube! I look forward to catching up.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!!
wow you totally deserve more subscribers!! i don't read much, i don't have the patience, but i loved listening to everything u had to say it was super interesting!
dry cereal Thank you!
The Selection is a sad example of this- it had an interesting premise (what if you put the Bachelor, a reality TV show where a man looks for an ideal woman among many, in a dystopian setting) but the execution was extremely sloppy with clichéd characters and a love triangle so bad it made me cry. Is it bad that I want you to read it so I can watch you rip it to shreds?
I think that the reality show premise of the book is interesting and cute, but the world building pisses me off.
I watched a video about dystopias and his take was that dystopias are warnings against utopias. Dystopias are utopias places in the real world. These idealistic ideas work well as ideas, but when placed in reality they turn into dystopias.
(It’s thanks to dystopian novels actually that whenever someone or some organization offers a perfect society or a perfect fix to our society’s flaws that I back away slowly lol. Yes perfection is something good to strive for but ultimately humans are imperfect, so in order to have a perfect society you’d have to take out the human part of it. A perfect society would not have a place for us in it. I’ve always thought that was funny. It’s meant to be FOR us and yet in a perfect society there is no real place for us.)
Back onto the topic. I really think it comes down to the fact that a lot of these newer ya dystopian writers don’t have anything to say. Like there’s a story, but they don’t have anything to say, it’s all empty. I think the best writers go into writing having something to say or a feeling they want to evoke, they write with PURPOSE. There are a lot of writers now, I think, who don’t write with purpose and so you get purposeless, empty, uninspired books from that.
*_PREACH GIRL PREACH_*
Also, you have gained a new subscriber *+1*
This is a really good video. I love dystopian novels like The Darkest Minds but it isn't what a dystopian is meant to be like a society striving for perfection
This is a very well done video! I feel repelled from YA novels for many reasons, and you captured a few of them.
Carly W thank you!
More of Utopia fame drew on an earlier work, The Republic/Plato. The author who took perhaps the biggest objection to utopian thinking was Machiavelli, who in The Prince took a more realist approach. Ironically it was he who began making politics technical...how dystopian. )-:
Some myths covered utopias & dystopias side by side: see myths of loss of paradise. :-)
As an aspiring writer, this was incredibly helpful. Thank you.
I just spend all my life storyboarding and planning everything out and never writing it
Haha, I totally get that!
This was a great video, thank you for lauching the discussion. I agree that dystopian can get very shallow, hopefully authors will take that into consideration before launching the next thing. :P
LeaTheHatless I hope so! Knowing the industry though, I doubt it. A lot of it comes down to the publishers and what's in right now is easy entertainment. Hopefully we start to see a change though!
Solid video, I think you make great points about the origins of dystopian literature that I wouldn't have thought of. If I could make a suggestion, I think less jump cuts would make things flow better. I find them a little jarring in a video with a serious/academic tone. Also pretty sure you meant "The Handmaid's Tale." Aaaanndd around the 5:30 mark you use "dystopian" as a noun. Ok done being a stickler don't hate me bye :3
Loved this video. going to use it as a counterpoint in my research. Thanks very much
I'm so glad I just found this channel!
OrdinaryLady Oh my gosh, thank you!!
Love your videos keep up the great content
leen rizk thank you!! :)
Great video, well put together with great observations and arguments! :)
Thank you!!
congrats on jumping from 100 to 2.5k subscribers btw :)
I might get hate for saying this. Haha. The third book of Divergent explains why the were separated. Genetic modifying or something like that (it's been a while since I read it) The whole city was actually a testing area, the people who made the city were actually making an environment where they were hoping a Divergent person would develope, but as years went on, the people forgot what they were there for and mistakenly believed the Divergent were a flaw in the system.
They even forgot the people outside that City existed.
But, Divergent is a guilty pleasure for me, so. xD
No hate from me. I know that Veronica Roth did try to explain it in the end, but it felt flimsy. The fact that neither you, nor I, remember the details means that it wasn't an impactful revelation so much as a feeble justification.
That being said, while I think the Divergent series is terrible at being dystopian, I enjoy the books in the same guilty pleasure way. I enjoy it for the characters and the action :)
Jordan Harvey I didn't mean hate from you specifically, more so from some commenters on RUclips in general for "defending" a book they hate. Happens a lot. Haha. I said I liked a show once in a comment and someone told to go die. xD
Just a little defense for Divergent - there is a reason given to the people being so one dimensional in the last book. I'm not saying it's quality literature, just that there is more to why the premise of the world is what it is. People often criticize the series for that without mentioning the twist that explains everything. The last book is still a huge disappointment though.
I'm also sick of all the YA dystopias today and have read too many already simply because that seems to be all that's popular these days. I was even hesitant to read the Handmaid's Tale because I was sick of the dystopia fad but I'm glad I didn't let it stop me from reading a good classic.
I have read all the Divergent books and in the end you get to know the explanation behind why many characters are somewhat divergent and why many atleast older only have one trait
Haven't even watched the vid yet but, if you are tired of generic dystopian stuff id recommend: Folding Beijing by Hao Jingfang, The Acts of Caine by Matthew Stover, The Three Body Problem by Liu Cixin