Evidence? | Hans Niemann vs Alireza Firouzja | Sinquefield Cup 2022
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Chess Grandmaster Daniel King examines the game Hans Niemann vs Alireza Firouzja from the Sinquefield Cup 2022. Support on Patreon: 🔥 / powerplaychess ►Support via PayPal (💲): www.paypal.com...
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#powerplaychess #hansniemann
I did some investigation into Carlsen vs Hans game. My findings:
1. Game checked parallely with both Stockfish & Lc0
2. First deviation or novel move is 9th move by Black 9...dxc4. It is also the first choice of the engines never played by a human before
3. All the Black (Hans) moves after 9 fall under top 3 choices of the engines
4. For some moves it looks like, Hans deliberately plays second rated or second choice moves which are still winning or strong plus moves.
5. Important Black moves such as 11...e5, 13...Be6, 19...Rc8, 24...Rc7, 28...Rc5, 30...Nd6, 32...e3, 46...Ke5 & 47...Nf1+ are played precisely and matches engines top choice.
6. If Hans has took the help of engines, he might have as well utilized multiple Engines to derail any investigations and pattern of any one Engine moves
7. Carlsen & his team might have done the same thing as me and would have come to the conclusion that Hans might have somehow taken the help of engines which he can't prove in any way!!
good comment! i have same theory. If done correctly you cannot prove that Hans plays with engine support. Possibilities to disguise it are endless and Magnus himself is known to have been playing engine moves too when his play is excellent. It is more about how Hans reacts that you can morally prove he is using engines. I am waiting for Hans to step up his level, win the candidates and then become world champion in a totally rigged. Will be interesting to see whether he can still do that without using too many engine moves
i think the best means to unravel this story will be time control. i have not seen him spending 30minutes+ on a move and then blitz out things. He tries to spend a little time on any move, but that is suspicious. One will find a pattern over all his games that will make it clear, that in critical situations top players do kind of like 20min+ think and Hans does only 5min. And Hans uses those 15min think time in average situations without a reason. we will see that and this will end the drama, cause computors cannot emulate human reaction to changing board situations and emotions
Agreed! Thanks Danny. And I said the same in my own video covering this. I also don’t like how Hans is now being treated disparagingly by certain players and commentators without any hard evidence like you say
Aside from the fact that Hans has a history of having been caught cheating online, he’s demonstrated somewhat of a smug disposition recently. He makes it easy *not* to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it’s just me, but the guy exudes “con man”.
@@GrandManor show us.
@@GrandManor thats not evidence of him cheating now
well said
Agreed. Ofc it looks suspicious, and you can see his duping delight microexpressions, but until there's something compelling he shouldn't be treated differently.
PPC viewers expected nothing less than balanced sound opinions from Danny, great vid as always, cmon u bees!
I think Daniel has the correct perspective: one can't drop broad hints like that and without providing proof, even if one's suspicion is right.
he is wrong -- Magnus had no other choice but withdraw -- he cannot play if he thinks opponent is cheating -- simple as that
@@IrregularPineapples Magnus could have simply tweeted he is withdrawing without attaching that mourinho video.
I was waiting for your thoughts on the whole situation. As ever, your assessment is completely fair and unbiased. Seems to me either
a) Carlsen possibly doesn't have a hard evidence and only 'feels' of a foul play (2006 Elista match comes to mind), or
b) He actually does and the organizers weren't buying his side to avoid a scandal.
In either case it isn't fair to cast a shadow on a young player without real evidence irrespective of whatever we think of his antics off the board.
I'm an outsider to the chess world, just stop in from time to time. I understand the computer solving and everything, but could we possibly be seeing a shake up in the chess world? A new young player with some unique strategy that counters multi level deep computer thinking? Not likely, but definitely possible. Magnus has been at the top for so long, eventually new theory will come through. it's the same for any sport, Poker, disc golf, Golf.. etc., and especially in the modern era with RUclips University and all the resources anyone could ever want at their fingertips.
Edit - I want to add my thoughts that maybe we'll start to discover that pure computer lines aren't always the best lines, where human intervention coupled with complex deep lines create a far superior strategy then that of a computer alone.? Wild theory here, but we have to be outward brainstorming in this new era.
I must say it's reaeally hard to not factor in Niemann's antics off the board. I watched a couple interviews with him, and he came off as arrogant and disrespectful 🤦🏽♀️. So yes, I appreciate an unbiased assessment. I'm on tenderhooks waiting for the rest of the evidence! I really hope that the young, upcoming player played fairly and didn't jeopardize his entire career. I am rooting for him despite his antics.
@@JMRSplatt It's extremely unlikely. The best computers are at 3500+ ELO and the best human is at 2850. I would say each 200 points is kind of a "next level" / "next league". So computers are 3 leagues above humans - compare that to soccer, basketball etc.
What kind of "secret strategy" would that be that does a jump of 3 leagues? And, even more, the best experts on the game wouldn't be able to recognize and explain what that "secret strategy" actually is in it's essence.
That factors in chess, that define the quality of a move, are well known. Winning material, attack the king, maximize the squares your pieces attack (board control) to name a few well known ones. There is no "secret" thing to be discovered. The winning strategies are well known - players have to apply them move by move and their alternatives and that's also what computers do. They just do it in more depth, at quicker speed and they never tire.
Exactly, there is a huge power imbalance between the two. Imagine Niemann leaving with a vague Tweet and Carlsen having to explain for hours why he is innocent and what is going on. You can't? Well, that is the point. Part of the situation is this power imbalance. That is why I really like that the Organizers let Niemann speak when he wanted to explain himself. I am sure they offered the same to Carlsen.
@@JMRSplatt "Not likely, but definitely possible. "
Neither likely nor possible.
" A new young player with some unique strategy that counters multi level deep computer thinking? .... Magnus has been at the top for so long, eventually new theory will come through. "
Um, you seem to be under the bizarre impression that "multi level deep computer thinking" and "Magnus" are the same thing. In any case, nothing that Niemann has done counters or is contrary to "multi level deep computer thinking".
"I want to add my thoughts that maybe we'll start to discover that pure computer lines aren't always the best lines"
We already know this. Perhaps you being "an outsider to the chess world" has some bearing on the relevance and value of your thoughts.
What do you think of the theory that someone within Carlsen's team was leaking his prep? Maybe Magnus decided to test this theory by preparing an obscure line he had never played before, and his suspicions were confirmed... Of course all of this is conjecture but it seems to be a real possibility to me!
Could it be Hans simply hacked Magnus's computer?
This, to me, seems about as likely as engine assistance, perhaps even more so.
noone in Magnus team would do that ever.
But why? I can't see the motivation in doing that and to Niemann of all people? Unless there was spread betting placed on Niemann before the match but surely that would've been flagged by now?
Hans is crushing everybody though, although he fails to put away some wins..
Is it likely that Niemann is the fastest riser in the history of the game? Who knows? Carlsen 2500 to 2700 takes 42 months, Erigiasi takes 51 months 2500 to 2700, Adbuttasarov takes 63 months 2500-2700, Firouzja takes 25 months 2500 to 2700, Same Shankland 64 months 2500 to 2700, Karjakin took at least 50 months--- Nieman takes 22 months from 2500 to 2700 and defeating the world champion. Seems to be possibly the Fastest rise in the history of the game??
Did you factor covid into your equation? Covid drastically impacted the over-the-board chess tournament scene, which directly affects a player's ability to gain rating while also giving a player ample time to improve online while their over-the-board rating stagnates.
@@harbhub Yep, Alireza same age as him and makes the 2500-2700 climb in almost the same. I think you might be right about Covid hitting at the same time these players reached maturity being a big factor.
@@JKenny44 You hit the nail on the head! Gukesh, Firouzja, and other juniors have all skyrocketed. The only real outlier for Hans is that he played an insane number of tournament games compared to everyone else, which shows that his growth was actually slower than others on a game-to-game basis.
It will be fastest fall - once they put delay on game he he dropped from 1st to 6th place - he’s a 💩 cheater and anyone who takes this in full context cannot honestly admit that Hans did not and is not a cheater. Hans is no GM and has used cheating to get to GM which he will be caught or ousted soon. You’ll all see.
@@scottsarfert That's highly speculative of you. Anyone would perform poorly after having the entire chess world turn against them. All of the top players require emotional equanimity in order to perform at the highest level.
Nice analysis of both the game and the controversy. Thanks.
Glad to see someone actually shine a bit of light on how Magnus has acted. Without very robust evidence of cheating presented very soon, this looks like both a temper tantrum and a vindictive power play by Magnus - sad times.
What it looks like. We don't know yet. There's more coming.
@@koho It takes much to much time to come. Imo hechas no evidence and is searching for a new explanation.I wouldn't be surprised if he will say something like: I couldn't play to my level, it was obvious in the gamexagainst Hans, so I couldn't continue the tournament. I was heartbroken and couldn't think about chess.
Just an example.
Imo he made ax wong assessment of the game, sincerely and wrongly thought that Hans cheated, has mo evidence, and doesn't know what to do anymore. Just speculation of course, but it seems likely. Why not talk otherwise?
What Magnus should do is apologize publicly to the organisers, the public and specially Hans Niemann, find a financial agreement with Hans: a big buck of $ as compensation for the reputation damage. The amount could be kept secret.
But I very much doubt he will do that because he has no class.
Magnus didn't make any accusations and didn't say anything at all, he kept quiet and left, you are being ridiculous and accusing Magnus of doing and saying things he didn't do or say.
@@tomatoisnotafruit5670 Seems like you didn't actually read my comment😣
@@stevedeall425 'both a temper tantrum and a vindictive power play by Magnus'
Please do explain how not saying anything, not making any accusations and just quietly leaving the tournament and going on with your life is a "temper tantrum"
When i watch your videos i feel like viewing Powerplay dvd series for free...its so fantastic and one of the best analysis so far 😍
Exactly, Danny! Evidence is the key! Yet a lot of people seem to be completely fine with making accusations without a care in the world regarding whether there's factual evidence or not. Hans' responses in his interview are very strange, to say the least, but that's a world apart from actually having evidence that he cheated in some form or another.
Easy to cheat in 2022 man
Some people just are not that comfortable speaking in public, Nepo being another example, of course.
Niemann's interview after round 5 convinced me that he's just an improving GM. I'm now a fan. On the other hand, I've lost a lot of respect for both Carlsen and Nakamura. Don't make accusations unless you have evidence.
@@jtdavis62 exactly my reaction too!!
@@jtdavis62 well said
Danny, as a GM, how probable do you think it is that Hans indeed had the position analyzed (to depth of ~20 moves, as he himself explained) the morning before the game? My understanding is that Carlsen only played 1 or 2 games in his career that went down a similar path, and it looks like a very rare line overall. Was it lottery type of luck? How did he know that investigating that position was the best use of his time
Such an excellent summary and take on the Hans vs Magnus situation. We need to be a lot more level headed as a community.
Nice game: these 19ers have guts, and they for sure play enterprising Chess.
Which is what I personally find the most interesting about this tournament.
On the other hand, nothing sensible to say about the Carlsen affair, for me...
Thanks for your videos!
I'm curious, why is Magnus's tweet near-universally accepted to be an accusation of cheating? A direct interpretation of the Mourinho clip would indicate that Magnus is upset about a decision made by the organizers, since Mourinho was upset with the referees.
@@anewfuture Even "suspects foul play" isn't the same as an accusation of cheating, though. For instance, it's possible Magnus wanted the kind of security measures that were implemented after he left, but was denied. Then after the game, felt like Hans *could* have been cheating, and didn't want to continue unprotected due to the uncertainty. That's still being suspicious of Hans, but it's not the same as saying he cheated.
@@jackcristo1628 but he ended up staking the fire
+1 on your judgement about the "case". If Magnus doesn't explain more, this will backfire.
Daniel King I discovered your channel recently. I just love your explanations and perspective, and I fell in love with your smile! I'm looking forward to watching more videos. Thanks, and good luck with your in-laws 😉. 🍀🇮🇪🍀
The video we have been waiting for
Danny saying what everyone is thinking but there are a few permutations, for example there is a theory that Carlsen's prep was leaked.
Also it doesn't help that Niemann was banned from other sites and Eric Hansen also distanced himself from Niemann, so history is what clouds the whole issue.
Nicely summarized, Danny: Very unsatisfactory. I believe the champion should not have withdrawn like this leaving everyone in this limbo.
Thank you, GM King! A voice of reason.
Hope you are enjoying the Dublin rain...we live in County Dublin to the southwest of the capital city
i find the post games interviews with him way more suspicious than the games themselves.
Was so waiting for this one.. especially this one !! Welcome back Danny !!
Glad to hear your fair and balanced take on this, well said
Been waiting for your comment in this saga. Awesome review
Very well said! The comments on social media and on these pages can prove to be extremely detrimental to young players like Hans, if he is innocent. Where is the beef? Gut feelings don't count and neither does Hikaru's words.
What no one is saying about Magnus withdrawing is that it may not be about Niemann per say. Magnus might be concerned that his prep is compromised, maybe his wifi is hacked, which means that EVERY opponent might potentially have his prep. Niemann also didn’t help when he said he was super lucky to check out that line in the morning, just in the nick of time.
Thank you for this injection of sanity into the discussion.
Has there been any kind of explanation as to HOW Niemann was supposed to have cheated?
There hasn't even been an explanation as to why Magnus withdrew from the tournament. This whole thing has gotten out of hand.
@@RunOfTheTrill Hans is kind of like the Jake Paul of chess 👆
@@dylansaviationadventures loll xD
"No Accent" . . . ?
"No Engine On" . . .?
Well, of course "Circumcision speaks for itself"
And of course how could I possibly ever hold on to a draw with a gentile . . .
My website: treasontoday.com/
@@dylansaviationadventures no hans has talent
The problem with people requesting that Magnus Carlsen 'explains' himself is that he really can't just like he hinted on Twitter. He cannot really say much more, because he will actually get in trouble. If he really feels that Hans is cheating, then I actually feel that what he did in Twitter is probably the best thing he could actually do. He wants the world to know how he feels, and he doesn't want to get into trouble. So else could he do?
Dont know why magnus wants to be the next bobby fischer. In doubting people. In finding controversies where there is no dust. He is a player par excellence and holds a seat that is untouchable. By pure display of talent.
It’s understandable that he finds no equal opponent and distances himself away from world championship. But its unbecoming of him to shun away from a match with doubtful eyebrows.
Let chess prevail.
I couldn't agree more! Well said GM King.
Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will give Hans credit for working hard on his game and achieving something people didn't think was possible. That being, him arriving in the upper echelons of the chess world. I believe Levon Aronian said it best when he said his colleagues are all paranoid. Whenever they see someone new/young playing well, there must be something up. Not always. People like to dismiss Hans because he's not very likable. And I agree, I'm not a fan of his. I also realize he's a 19 year old kid who probably spends way too much time studying chess. I don't think that's healthy for ones mental health. Whether it's taken to an extreme a la Fischer, or in general, many of the elite players are a little "off" by societal standards. Hikaru, Magnus, you name it. Few are like Levon or Vishy.
I think Magnus made a big mistake leaving this tournament, even if he's convinced Hans cheated. Now, the onus is on him to show that Hans is indeed a cheater. Else, he looks like a sore loser with a fragile mind. He certainly negatively impacted the tournament and if I was running the Sinquefield cup, I would not be happy with MAGNUS. Unless, he can prove his allegations are true. The world champion has never been shy in front of the microphone, why now? Is he really afraid of legal trouble for calling Hans out? Don't hide behind a tweet and a YT video Magnus, SAY IT.
Magnus never been a good loser as Vishy.
Your disdain for Carlsen takes away from what would otherwise be a decent point. You forget Magnus did not say anything about engine cheating. He posted that he couldn’t say anything which means he’s suspicious. He could be suspicious of something besides engine cheating.
@@rxw5520 I don't have any disdain for Magnus. I've always appreciated how brutally honest and frank he can be in interviews. And what fan of chess could possibly not LOVE the fact that he plays out EVERY game??? He doesn't settle for quick draws...EVER!
This concept of there being cheating besides using a computer is laughable. You're repeating another one of those internet rumors that Hans stole his prep? Or do you think Hans is an Alien who can read his mind during the game? What's your theory, do tell.
Hans clearly cheat, his level is 2500 . He found all 20 moves top engine moves after carlsen novelty(never existed before) . Moreover has got 0 point last tournament, i saw the interview he just a mediocre (a cheater)
What are you talking about? Magnus had lost games in tournaments and never abandoned it,he had lost to teenagers before(Keymar, Abdotusorov, Pragg) and never suspect they cheated until now, to say MC quit just because he is a sore loser is a very weak argument, he for some reason really believes Hans made a thing and this have the roots inthe Crypto Cup in Miami
Magnus does not have to reveal the reason why he quit, but unless he eithers confirms or denies that it was because he suspects (or knows) that Niemann was cheating, I have lost all respect for Carlsen as a person! It is unfair and cowardly to do otherwise.
I agree. That said, I have, in the past, seen Carlsen behaving like a little boy when he loses - storming off without giving any interviews. To me, while I agree he is taking an unfair shot at Niemann, he could just be pissed that he lost a game to a 19-y.o. upstart and not know how to deal with the loss maturely.
Most athletes would pick themselves up after a bad loss. Carlsen might have just exploded, turned into a 3-y.o. and quit the tournament because he couldn't handle the overwhelming emotion of having lost a game he felt he should win. Just an alternative idea. I think he's definitely throwing shade and accusations at Niemann by his actions.
@@sherylbegby Maybe, but then he is casting a shadow, not just over Niemann, for cheating, but over himself for reacting immaturely to a loss.
@@dougforkes563 Absolutely true. Which is why I'm not sure whether Magnus has engaged his rational mind here.
Even knowing what opening/variation your opponent will play does not guarantee you will win , especially against such a player after all there's a reason why Carlsen decided to play it, if indeed he cheated there's more to it than just someone from Carlsen's team leaking info , whatever happened it will surface in due time
The thing is Magnus withdrew and technically only semi-stated talking would get himself in trouble so he wouldn’t talk. So regardless if whether cheating occurred or not Magnus doesn’t owe a further explanation. He felt strongly about withdrawing and did. In doing so he is certainly taking heavy criticism.
21:29 🤔: ♚♔
A belated concurrence with GM King; solid presentation of the game at hand as well 👍
Unsatisfactory. What a gentleman. Congratulations for the analysis, regarding chess and metachess. I could not agree more. The non scientifically correct sacrifice made against Firouzja, indeed looked dangerous without the satisfying confirmation of a module evaluation and defensive suggestions. However, this is only from my humble perspective, I cannot judge what a grandmaster would think of that position with the clock ticking. So, I am happy to hear your opinion. Looking forward to seeing this situation fairly resolved and make the talks more about the game these guys produce again.
I have yet to see evidence that Carlsen accused Niemann of cheating. Can someone link to that?
It seems to me that two huge assumptions are being made in this whole fiasco: 1. that Carlsen actually accused Hans of cheating; and 2. that Hans cheated.
The evidence does not support either of those assumptions, at least none that I've seen.
I watched Hikaru's video in which he seemed to present evidence of cheating, based mostly on Hans' post-match analysis, but it was not proof. And Carlsen's somewhat cryptic tweet was just that: Cryptic.
Excellent analysis of a very interesting game. I tend to agree with you Daniel re Carlsen. He has taken an emotive stance after his loss to Niemann, where he now has to produce something. We will see in due course.
You as ever Danny speak cool and collected language. I see Hans was actually banned from online chess twice I believe but there is not concrete evidence of any wrongdoing concerning this competition.
He got banned for an hour because he begged a diamond membership. Stop spreading this disinformation.
it was just casual games and some players use that online situation as a training situation where they might use software to evaluate how accurate their play but otb is another story
@@eminence_ nah they’ve confirmed he was banned from money tournaments for six months. Separate from the “joke” ban you’re referring to. Look it up.
Some stremers watch there streem while playing online and its not realy cheeting.
@@rxw5520 He was 12 years old tho
I cannot agree more with your comments regarding the whole Carlsen-Niemann situation Danny, and thank you for another quality video! It seems totally unfair to throw someone's victory reputation/career into the suspicious shadow of cheating without any credible evidence.
I think we have all seen how talented and competitive young players have been over the past year or two, and it is just not right to stir such gossip and scandal on a 19-year-old player in the absence of any proof or at least any sort of investigation. I am not taking a side here, but whatever the outcome might be, I think it will forever tarnish Niemann's reputation and confidence. What Magnus has done is simply disappointing.
Daniel. I like your take on the hans niemann controversy. As we say in the 'states' I'm from Missouri.....the 'show me state'.....
If Carlsen really suspected Niemann of cheating , he could have made an official complaint to the organizers and leave it to them to decide. He could then have chosen to play on.
We should wait for the SLCC organizers to inform us about what really is going on and not speculate. Hopefully we will learn more at 20:00 CET.
15:39 Suprisingly Re3 instead of Rg3 is the winning move ... Very weird stuff:)
"Why you not tell your father" - "My father appreciate facts" - "Yes, and I often find them a hinderance. That´s why you come to me for help"
a judicious opinion imo
i think carlsen if he's going to accuse someone of cheating, should present the evidence at the moment of accusation, this drama inducing vague tweet is childish and counterproductive to the resolution of the dispute between the two players
Carlsen has not accused him of cheating, though.
@@TessaTestarossa lets not be naive, he withdrew from the tournament the day after the game, changed his instagram to a shot at niemann and made that tweet
its an accusation without the words
@@sovietblobfish Its your opinion , there is no evidence that Magnus accused him of cheating. Why he should present evidence
@@vengurla1 its not my opinion, its the opinion of every single player at the sinquefield cup that there has been an implicit accusation
he should do one of three things:
a) claim he did not withdraw due to a cheating scandal, and apologise to niemann for these last few days of discomfort from the ambiguity
b) present evidence in support of an accusation
c) apologise to niemann
A lot of strong gms are suspicious of hans, for obvious reasons. none of them are accusing him because there is no evidence. magnus has not accused hans, so he need not provide any evidence.
We need to ask the hard questions here: Did anybody deliver a Blueberry Yogurt to Hans during his match with magnus?
Korchnoi - Karpov reference if I'm not mistaken?
Really random question, but did you happen to commentate a game with Maurice Ashley in 1994... I want to say it was Kasparov vs... Karpov or possibly even Deep Blue (I was young, sorry!). Either way, thanks for the awesome video!
Nice analysis. Not only of the game, that is not new, but also of the polemic. Nothing to add except for the fact that it would be great if people take into account that Hans is a human being before attacking him.
Thank God there is the slider to seek the end of the game to get the info before watching the game analysis
There is no possible evidence. Unless you catch hans with a device.
I am sure Magnus has only serious suspicion. Serious enough to withdraw. I mean in the interview after the game Niemann said he had analyzed an equal game that morning 'by miracle', and in the interview after this game he could not evaluate the positions of the game he just played, he just said 'i dont have to show variations'
of course that Niemann dude cheated. Are you blind?
I've heard on youtube -- and seen in the comments below -- that Niemann has a "history" of cheating online, but I tried to find hard evidence of that online and cannot find it. I know Hikaru alluded to something about it ... but anyway, if anyone can link me to "the evidence" of that sullied past, I'd be curious to see it, thank you.
And thank you as always, Danny King, for your wonderful analysis and thoughtful sensible commentary. It's a pleasure just to listen to you.
I have to say ... in his post-game interviews (after beating Carlsen and drawing with Firouzja) Niemann reminded me a lot of Bobby Fischer, with his brash, abrasive, frankly conceited attitude. Who knows -- maybe those qualities will help make him world champ some day?
Titled Tuesday 4th April 2017, same event that Dlugy got banned for...
@@GooglyBear1969 link please?
Hans gave a lengthy and seemingly honest and open interview on the St Louis Chess Club's RUclips channel after today's game. It covers his past transgressions and his views on the current (and so far) unsubstantiated suspicions that have been raised about his play in this tournament. Hopefully Magnus will soon give a similarly open and frank interview clarifying whether his tweet (issued shortly after his defeat by Hans) was indeed intended to accuse Hans of cheating when he beat Magnus.
@@btwilks yes I just saw. I agree with you completely. I'm kind of rooting for Hans to win the tournament now! It does seem he has been very unfairly treated ... and I have to say, what's with Hikaru Nakamura being so irresponsible and scurrilous? And kissing up to Magnus like he does these days ... what exactly is his game?
@@btwilks I think Magnus' lawyers will be telling him to stfu about any suspicions he has about Hans' honesty. Publicly saying he's a cheat without rock-solid evidence that he cheated would be inviting an expensive libel suit he would lose.
Thanks Mr King for the excellent analysis, and expounding on the interesting variants. Many of us agree with your comment on the controversy, thanks. I’ve never been to Ireland !
Mr Soulmate if you never been in Ireland I guess you have lost the most enjoyable experience a human (or animal) can ever had. Don’t miss it. Its a sin !! Be well, be safe …
To my (somewhat trained) eyes, Hans' evaluations seemed correct enough. He's received a lot of criticism such as "that's not 2700 level analysis" but I was far more shocked that Alireza didn't see Qg3. Checks, Captures, Threats, there are no checks, Bxh6 is a capture that leads you to Qg3 anyhow, Qg3 threatens checkmate and should be the first move that a 1500 explores. I thought Qg3 incredibly natural to at least see, and if it works, it works. As you said, he probably saw the concept before he played e5, or else e5 doesn't make as much sense. His analysis of this game, he initially terminated analysis in the position after g6 with basically an evaluation of "I have more than enough compensation," which was an accurate evaluation. In long term compensation positions, that is one thing I actually try to teach people how to do, safely terminate by exploring the forcing refutations, and then trust your position and play it. There are two things that can go wrong with that, but both can be addressed; Missing the forcing refutations can be fixed by training calculation, and misevaluating compensation can also be talked about, but it's much harder to explain what compensation actually is. f4 and the board is cut in half, that's correct, without exploration I can see that black will struggle to coordinate his pieces in defense of his king because of the f4-e5 pawn chain, anyone who plays the French with white should recognize the compensation for a piece.
I'm not a GM, but Hans' evaluations made sense to me. Especially his evaluation of the Carlsen endgame, he knew that the position was impossible for white to defend, which is a practical assessment, not an objective one. He was correct in trusting the practical evaluation over the objective one in that game, and just kept posing difficult questions and pressing his advantage.
He saw it, but was afraid.
a trainer for a short time of hans has been very disparaging of carlsens response in this case and in other losses he took really bad showing no respect to his opponents
Well Qg3 is ok, but his evaluations of some of the variation were atrocious, giving white a clear advantage when it was at least -3 for black and getting easily refuted by Alejandro without an engine. Obviously, it could be that he was too nervous after Carlsen's withdrawal, he was clearly not as relaxed as previous days. But I understand why people are getting suspicious, specially because this was a very unnusual behaviour by the WC.
Just a thought-while Alejandro’s engine was not on during the post mortem, it WAS on throughout the game, so the notion that Alejandro was refuting Hans’ lines “without an engine” is possibly not entirely correct.
@@ghostapostle7225 Yeah his variations weren't the best, but I mentioned the "early termination" thing because I think it's entirely possible to play sacrificial best moves such as Qg3, without seeing all of the variations to follow. At least one of those variations he was saying didn't work, so he was exploring around the ideas, and since the piece wasn't taken he didn't have to work them all out for real. If Firo had actually taken the piece, we would've been a lot more informed, but if one of my students said that they thought they had sufficient compensation and early terminated anywhere in those lines, I would probably ask about a couple potential refutations and if they could handle them, just move on.
Were all of Hans' evaluations entirely accurate? Well no, but like Kramnik, I can excuse being a little overoptimistic. "I have the d6 pawn, how can I ever be worse?" wasn't accurate but from a human standpoint, I get it, and I think being just a little overconfident is probably okay.
Thank you for this video and sensible comments. I feel that "Unsatisfactory" is the least we can say...
I always love your videos, you are also a role model to me
Post game interview Round 3
‘Niemann: I looked at this today… some miracle… I checked this today…It’s such a ridiculous miracle… I don’t even know why I checked it… I checked this today by a miracle yeah?
Alejandro: You had this exact position?
Niemann: Even further, but…
Alejandro: I have to ask you.. What prompted you out of all the variations such as this one…I don’t think Magnus has ever played this before… (This statement is correct.)
Niemann: No he has… but it wasn’t this specific variation…He played er… He played er…It was with erm… He did not play with A3.’ (Immediate contradiction of his own statement.)
Niemann continues with a completely incoherent series of assertions and variations too garbled to quote. Alejandro then indicates to him the significant variations and the evaluations.
NIEMANN ASKS US TO BELIEVE IN MIRACLES. IN CHESS THERE ARE NO MIRACLES.
Okay, so how is this evidence of cheating? What would be the specific way he has cheated, as indicated by this interview?
Remember when Kramnik smashed Levon in the Italian game? Bet he didn't expect that to happen-He said as much; he was expecting to catch some lower rated GM in that line if he was lucky.
"Miracles" happen all the time. Any XCOM player will tell you that.
Magnus Carlsen vs Wesley So
GCT Kolkata Rapid & Blitz (2019) (blitz), Kolkata IND, rd 9, Nov-25
Nimzo-Indian Defense: Romanishin Variation. English Hybrid (E20) · 1/2-1/2
@@HunterBelkiran Good question. I make no accusation, but we only have Carlsen's silence and Niemann's words so I think it's worth listening to what Niemann actually says (which has changed significantly from round 3 to round 5). An obvious answer to your question would be that Niemann knew beforehand the opening that Carlsen would choose. He states that he prepared that very morning to the EXACT endgame that occurred ('even further' than move 20). Niemann repeatedly calls this fact 'a miracle', which is not only a bizarre acknowledgement but, as I point out, inimical to the very nature of chess, though it would appear that we have some 'believers' in divine intervention over the board.
@@micke7 This game departs after move 4. Also, contrary to what Niemann states, Carlsen does play A3 here.
you know why do you only look at Hans chess playing?? It was clear from a computer analysis of Magnus‘s play that he made some serious errors in defending his position and that’s basically why he lost you know.
As always :-) Love your commentary on the games!!!
You could have included the crazy Be5 - Qg5, Rg4 - Qc1+, Kh2 - Bxg4, Qxg4 - Qg5 line which is really entertaining (after Bf5 that was Hans's original plan, he missed the second Qg5).
That backdrop is so quintessential to that part of the world though :D Reminds me of my grandparents' house!
I'm just waiting for someone to drift into view to retrieve that tennis ball.
It's almost impossible to cheat in a live tournament such as Sanit Louise.
Thanks for the video. Good to see you back, take time off when you want it though. :)
About the game:
I think a move like Rd4 is very difficult move to resist, because it does several things at once (protect a4 pawn, activate the rook, on a good day it might swing to king-side and join the attack). You feel that the sum of these always make it a good move. It's difficult to realize a single-purpose move might be better than the 3 mini-purposes provided by the alt.
About the whole scandal thing:
I am with you Danny, innocent until proven otherwise.
I kinda feel there is still a possibility that Magnus was referring to some other unhappiness he didn't want to speak about. No clue what it could be though.
I completely agree with your assessment of the drama that's going on, GM King. You are as logical in life as you are in chess :). To cast a "shadow" like this, as you say, is not acceptable.
Thank you for this take. We need less confirmation bias and more sticking to our principles. Innocent until proven guilty.
Are we in a court of law here?
@@dash_r_media This is basic critical thinking, reasoning, and ethics. You don't need to be in a court of law to apply these principles.
Well said Danny
"Trust takes years to build. Seconds to break. And forever to repair".He cheated when he was 12. And he cheated when he was 16, as he stated on the enterview. And very likely alot more in between. Watching his enterviews, body language and personality, my personal interpretation is that no, he didnt learn his lesson. People dont change or mature this fast. I believe he stopped cheating, not because of remorse, but because he got caught a few times. Fear, and self preservation. But this is my personal take on human nature, from life experience. Having said this, its unlikely he could have cheated over the board. And hopeing to finally hear magnus react and come forward on why he withdrew. I choose to believe the theory that somehow some of his opening prep, might have leaked, somehow into Hans hands. And he capitalized on it. If that was the case.. would that be consider cheating anyway? Morality is a thin line sometimes.
A fair evaluation of the Magnus situation. I've witnessed some strange behavior in big money tournaments in the past so I'm a bit leery on these types of events. I guess this is why your reputation is one of the most valuable assets you can have. Hans sullied his with a couple of online suspensions. So now it is like the old "lady and the tiger" story and no one knows for sure what is behind the door.
More than his play, his interviews are the one that increases the speculation. He played Qg3 as if it were a standard move, and he said the position must be crushing when there wasn't any idea of attack or mating threat. That kind of sacrifice for long-term compensation is what engines have mastered. And after Qg3, the lines he saw were weird and made not much sense to many people. His evaluations were all over the place. It's interesting that without much knowledge, everyone in that tournament except Aronian believes there is a high chance of cheating. Interview reaction from nepo and fabi and wesly so comments in twitch kind of suggest that.
Hans is an intuitive player like Tal. Magician Hans even if he cheated he is still The Magician
I was blown away by him not being able to follow his own gameplan with Alejandro. Bizarre af. This is what made Hikaru speculate, not the moves themselves.
I believe Qg3 wad definitely a candidate move for most titled players, because of the threat of Bxh6, the pin, etc. After being thoroughly searched before his game that day, it looks like Niemann was feeling scrutinized and right at the beginning of that post-game interview with the guy from the St-Louis chess club, you can see that Niemann already feels attacked and the interviewer is on a mission (you could say he did a good job, that I have a problem is how people interpret the interview). I have never seen a post chess interview where a GM would play something like that Qg3 move saying it's clear there's good compensation for that move and the interviewer would show doubts and ask the player to show his line, not in an interested way but like a detective. I find it weird that people would expect someone clearly hot headed like Niemann to have a normal chill post-game analysis in such conditions. There's just no way he cheated against Firouzja, while the organizers were looking at him so closely after the accusations. Stress, fatigue, mental health, etc would explain the weird analysis way better in my opinion. Don't know what happened against Magnus though.
I believe Hans precisely because of his interviews. There are so many attacking ideas in the position you are mentioning: Bh6-g5 directly or after f2-f4, Bxf8, h2-h4 and maybe h4-h5 or Bg5. All those ideas, plus weak dark squares around the king, plus the white queen on the K-side, the right side for the attack, plus the possibility of involving 1 or 2 pawns in the attack (pawns count as attacking units according to great attacker Garry Kasparov). That's frightening and Alireza certainly believed so, have you checked his interview?
How would that idea of Re4-g4!!? and answering...Bxg4 by f4!!, an idea Alireza didn't see at all, could be transmitted by cheating when those moves were NOT played. This is nonsense. The guy just has many creative ideas.
Players of the age of Carlsen and Caruana are 100% in the brute-force computer era. But younger players like Hans and Fourjia are children of the intuitive chess engines like Leela and Alpha zero. By virtue of this their play is more intuitive than their predecessors and more likely to play "great-looking" moves without needing concrete lines, but rather trusting that the complications will be in their favor. Tal did this 60 years ago, all by himself. ("I like to lead my opponent into a dark, dense forest, where the path out of the forest is only wide enough for one of us.")
Yasser and Peter said during the game that Magnus did not mobilze all of his resources to defend the game - which they said was not typical for magnus. Maybe Hans had some extra motivation to defeat the world's best player and Magnus did not exprect him to play so well and fearless. In any case i am very disappointed Magnus has withdrawn and also the way he did it was very bad. He could easily damage Niemann's career without having any evidence yet.
Oh this was wonderful. Thank you, Danny. Excellent words on the whole fiasco. This whole guilty until proven innocent situation is rough and entirely unnecessary. And may well have a big impact on a young player, which is, to repeat your words, unsatisfactory.
I do agree with your take.. let's see how this develops.. it will be more and more of an issue in the future, i imagine. or maybe there will be some ai that can determine if a game is played by a human or computer, or a mix of both. Some algorithms exist already, but those are only reliable over great amounts of games i imagine
Exactly right! Innuendo is just that, .
On the one hand, it's up to the accusers to provide evidence. On the other hand, it's up to Hans to build back trust after being caught cheating online just 3 years ago...
I think proven cheaters should just not be invited to prestigious tournaments until they have built back trust (if such a thing is possible)
On the contrary, I think this is a good thing for years to come, since otherwise more and more cheaters (really tricky ones that are not burdened with multiple online chess bans) will take the place of the best players in the rating list. The chess will become better, but the players will not be able to explain their moves. And all this to make some $.
Can somebody explain to me why everyone's scurrying in to be as opinionated as possible in as many internet places as possible when we know nothing about what's going on?
I believe that Carlsen perhaps has too much power in the chess world. He has been a bit disrespectful towards Nepomniatchi (saying he won his first candidate because of Covid, saying he needs to play chess like a shark, refusing to face him or other guys from the old generation for the WC, etc) and since then the chess world has been really rough on Nepo, in my opinion. Not a lot of congratulations after winning his 2nd candidate in a row. Same with Niemann here, he sends that tweet to retire from the tournament and suddenly Niemann gets thoroughly searched before his match and gets a FBI-like post-game interview. Is it that surprising he looked weird in that interview in those circumstances ?
Nepo supported Carlsen in an interview subtly replying that the game was more than extraordinary or remarkable. Reading between the lines here
I used to ignore Hans because of his weird interviews but now I like him. It's so easy to sully reputations and career without evidence. Not saying I'm certain he ain't cheating but until then, don't crucify him. What's Hikaru's beef against him anyway?
I believe that we should wait in time for the evidence, just like Epic Chess, Nigel Short, Levon have stated.
He’s very prideful, angry, and strange, not sure how you like him
@@Leumas34676 Maybe just a bit socially inept, which is no crime.
@@roqsteady5290 socially inept because you saw him do strange interviews? Public opinion is like pubic hair, every one has an opinion (African proverb). Have you lived or spent time with him to say that. If someone is socially inept is Nakamura a devious, sadistic, narcissistic demon who puts on a great act publicly. Don't judge so cheaply.
@@roqsteady5290 Socially a touch unconventional is a better description I feel rather than inept.
Wait for the evidence is kind of silly. Meaning if there is no evidence he didn’t do it. That’s not how the world works
as always, you are so pertinent in your analysis. Magnus did not say cheating took place this is why the situation is so ambiguous. I share your opinion, the proof has yet to be provided. and the FIDE rule "The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute." is already acted and confirms cheating in that sense because there is disrepute about the game...
Magnus is a clever guy. He has probably set a trap to confirm his suspicions (around prep probably, not engine cheating). I just don’t get why Hans was so incoherent after the game with Alireza. He didn’t seem to understand his own moves.
probably affected by the allegations and the feeling he was being tested
It was nothing like Alireza’s.
Wise words Daniel.
Totally agree with you.
Totally agree with you on the Carlsen drama. Thank you sir.
Thanks someone who uses logic and waits for evidence
Isn’t it the role of the Arbiter to oversee the laws of the game and the conduct of players? If any player has evidence of cheating or even suspects cheating during the game then there is a mechanism in place to deal with it during and post game.
I can’t imagine what evidence Carlsen could have found after the game that would have supported Nielsen in outplaying him during the endgame.
I suspect this incident reflects both Carlsen’s malaise towards the game of chess, but also his lack of respect towards Nielsen himself. If he’s worried about getting into trouble, then he wouldn’t try and sully the reputation of a fellow GM.
Dan, the man still: txs 4 your few words!
15:37 what happens after Kg8 Rg3+ Kf8?
Very rational take. However, is Magnus suspects cheating Magnus can not say anything without violating fair play regulations. And, arguably, any evidence isn't for the public to digest and come to their own conclusions but for the regulatory authorities.
Maybe Hans can take advantage of the "shadow" and gain even more ELO while everyone wonders and fears a Hans pairing. Alireza was glad to give the almost 100 elo lower opponent the draw. I bet Ian, MVL, and Wesley would be nervous too.
Seems to me that Carlsen's objective of reaching an incredible 2900 is becoming a bit of a millstone round his neck. It may also be clouding his judgement.
Thing is, Neimann is clearly a top level player, so cheating for him will be easier since he will know when to and when not to use the computer moves. He doesn't need to pick the computer move each time, he can do it selectively, making his own moves on the way otherwise it would be too obvious. He also doesn't need to cheat in all games either which I think makes it very difficult to prove unless you have some strong evidence.
When you watch it live and you see the evaluation bar jump, that is sometimes enough to tell you there is a critical move you can play, this prompts you to look harder, or find moves you might not have considered - like when you see a headline 'white plays an insane move' you go looking for crazy sacrifices, but over the board without that prior knowledge you would have little hope finding it.
I think Magnus does need to explain himself othersie where will it end, he can't keep doing this because its not fair on other players.
I wonder what Radjabov's take is on Carlsen's behaviour. He faced similar wrath in 2003 when he ended Kasparov's streak as a 15 year old and beat him with the black pieces. Kasparov went all berserk about it and Radjabov even claimed that Kasparov subsequently used his influence to stop Radjabov from being invited to top tournaments as a result. Yes the issue with Radjabov/Kasparov wasn't about cheating back then, but the psychology is the same: a World Champion can't handle a loss against an upstart and blames everybody but himself... Very bad sportsmanship really.
Espienko beat him . He was fine with it that time . Pragg beats him multiple times in chess24 events . But he gets invited again and again , even though he has influence on chess24. Magnus Is a sore loser , but he won’t play with someone’s career like Garry .
@@adityavv96 well I would agree with your statement if he hadn't behaved this way towards Niemann. Now he has shown that he is actually willing to "play with someone's career" as you say. A cloud will always hang on Niemann's career due to Carlsen's insinuations and his subsequent silence.
No doubt top players play the computer's best move a lot of the time, because often the computer's best move is also the most natural move to make for good human players.
I am inclined to favour the Ms. Rooney Gambit deployed in a recent match against Ms Vardy.
Wow.. I didn't even realize you had a channel Danny. I remember you from Kasparov vs the World which I was involved in (although a very weak player at the time...wait a minute...I'm still a very weak player! :D).
51...Ka1 And DRAW! :)
Wish you all the best.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” - Carl Sagan. Magnus won't look good after this unless he came out with clear proofs. Remember the ignoble false accusations against the Romanian player Mihaela Sandu in the 2015 European Women's Championship? Shame!!!
That's a famous flawed argument by Sagan. Extraordinarily claims just require evidence. There's no such thing as extraordinary evidence.
How could Magnus speak out if he knows he will be in big trouble then? "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen"
It seems like Mr Carlssen has some kind of internal crises. I hope he soon gets back on track. But I think he needs a holliday from chess for a while and just relax.
But Carlsen hasn't blamed Hans at all in his statement, as far as I know it is us, the rest who just assumes it's about Hans cheating.
Since "the rest of us" assume that Magnus' withdrawal is about Hans cheating, and it is reasonable for the rest of us to assume that Magnus believes Hans cheated, it is reasonable to think Magnus would issue a statement that he is NOT accusing Hans of cheating. Magnus hasn't done so. I don't think Magnus is so lacking in integrity that he would let Hans live under this cloud of suspicion unless he thought Hans cheated. So Carlsen has blamed Hans or he lacks integrity.
I'm glad you think that Magnus' behaviour is not justifiable here, It seems to me that this is the right position to have with the information we have got so far. Hans not guilty yet, Magnus not professional enough in behaviour.
If he had evidence or at least strong arguments, he should have named them and named the person. AND announce the organisers and the participants beforehand that he is withdrawing, not let things just be found from twitter during the match, still waiting those 10 minutes to se whether he was going to show up.
And the fact that he did not name the problem and the person brings only dirt to the organisers and disrespect to the participants and the viewers. Plus the fact that one player always has no opponent per match.