Tom King & The Alan Moore Effect
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- Опубликовано: 4 авг 2024
- let's talk about Tom King and what I like and hate about his writing.
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I think Tom King may be the best example of the biggest problem in comics now, lack of editing. Good editors would have King play to his strengths and we'd be having solid Batman issues every month
100% agreed. It doesn't seem like there's anyone keeping Tom King in check.
Was about to say the same thing, you can see the same problem with Bendis he does a good Superman but butchers the supporting cast. If a good editor kept him in line he might have done a really good job
Saggy Bones honestly, thats good insight
I disagree. While I thought his work on Batman was mixed his work on Grayson, Vision, Omega Men and Mister Miracle were easily some of the best comic stories written in the last 25 years.
King does best with less prolific characters where he's allowed to turn whatever status quo on its head and run with it.
“The comic book industry is full of people who want to be Alan Moore... but my question is, why doesn’t anyone want to be the next Stan Lee?” -TheRealComicBookGamer
Brilliant!
This video is chock full of great observation and superb criticism. Bravo!
PS> The best work I’ve read by Tom King is his first arc on Batman. It’s awesome! His worst is Heroes in Crisis. It’s a clinic on how not to write comics. It’s unbelievable that the same guy wrote both books.
Thanks man! I still need to check out his early Batman stuff, I didn't start reading his Batman run until War of Jokes and Riddles.
Stan Lee? Seriously? 95% of his reputation is based on lies and deception... he's literally the last one on the list to follow...
Mehrab Mehri jack Kirby is who I would’ve said
@@mehrider7041 burn!!!
@@mehrider7041 bro believes in conspiracy theories
For some reason, nearly every writer and even movie director thinks that making a character "dark" makes them "deep".
That’s literally what Stan Lee did when he created fantastic four. Make realistic superheroes.
@@gnarrcan108 A super hero family it's not necessarily a realistic super hero team not even a dark one
It's also sad to pigeonhole Alan Moore as a writer of depressed characters and deconstructed concepts. The guy is just plain good and his stories are well thought of and methodical.
Agreed, but I'm not doing that. I'm pointing out that a lot of people just see Alan Moore as the guy who wrote Watchmen and V For Vendetta. That's why I brought up Superman Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow, to show that there's a lot more to Alan Moore than those books.
Yeah that's a misconception. People need to read Promethea (mind blowing and hilarious, full of hope), Top Ten (hilarious and character driven) or Swamp Thing (a love story disguised as a horror story).
His Supreme run is an apology to his past takes on dark-grim supes
There's a difference between being "dark and deconstructing," and being "contrived as AF." Batgirl would not just stand back and let Harley Quinn kill Booster Gold. She'd try and stop Harley and render her unconscious, or at the very least try to reason with her, since she and Booster were persons of interests in this matter.
This felt like a way to force a fight scene in this series, when he could've escalated the conflict to a fight scene naturally.
Y'all sure this man can write?
I actually really appreciate tom King's writing, the problem he suffers with is what a lot of writers suffer from, sometimes these writers think they're better than they're.
He’s had his good comics here and there but I just cannot stand everything he’s doing now and to me heroes in crisis is just a middle finger to me as a fan of the characters and a comic book fan!
Alan Moore is one of the greats but I just want people at dc like Tom king & Dan didio to stop making every title like frank miller, Moore, comics of the 90s and the Nolan batman movies!
Yeah everyone tries to be the next Miller/Moore instead of just figuring out their own style and what works best for them.
@@TheRealComicBookGamer Which is exactly what Miller and Moore did. Why these guys haven't figured out that playing to their own unique strengths and styles is the way to go baffles me.
The quote “Bros before heroes”from heroes in crisis pretty much sums up everything I hate about about Tom Kings writing like you said it doesn’t sound anything like a human
How?
I hate heroes in Crisis, but "bros before hoes" wasn't even bad, it was said by 2 characters that are supposed to be close friends dudebros, w/e the fuck you want to call them.
Them saying Bros before hoes is definitely something that has been said by a human before.
Jesus Christ, you people...
@@NarutoStorm3Rocks it's 'bros before HEROES' unfortunately.
@@amarikwa888 yup its called a wordplay
@@asapsyx1507 it fell flat to most people unfortunately
@@amarikwa888 yeah I get it, but I dont think this particular dialogue was the problem, if it felt that way to most people thats more a problem of characterisation. I'm only talking about this criticism people have obviously a lot of various reasons to not like it
I think the ongoing series format doesn't suit him. His best works are often oneshots and mini series.
Watchmen was careful to balance the darkness with plenty of humor at the right spots. It's very fair to the reader in that respect. Alan Moore seems to have as a primary goal that the reader must have a satisfying journey when reading his stuff. The story was emotionally balanced with highs and lows like a symphony. I don't see some of Tom King's more recent stories really caring about the reader experience in that way. They seem too self-absorbed, and it causes many of them to feel unsatisfying for that reason.
Y'all gotta stop giving Stan Lee more merit than he deserves
Agreed. He's co-created some of the greatest characters of all time, but as far as his writing goes it tends to be pretty poor. Some of his writing is actually good (Amazing Spider-Man), while others is super dated and just bad overall (Daredevil)
@@connorcarruthers we all have our ups and downs not all writer is perfect
I totally agree with you, but my issue is no one wants to be Stan lee because Stan lee wasn’t a great writer. Don’t get me wrong, he was a fantastic creator, but if you are completely honest, his writing is on the polar opposite extreme of king’s writing. Stan Lee’s heroes don’t talk like people, and there is no depth, and his early writing is very sexist at times. I do smile sometimes, but if you look at the dialogue at all, you can see what I mean. Every other page of early avengers ant man berates wasp for being a “female”. Stan did break boundaries and his writing did have its moments, but again a lot more writers did what he did later so much better. I love Stan lee, but you have to recognize this.
That's what I'm saying though, Tom King can do what Stan Lee did but elevated to another level. He could do it better if he just tried instead of always trying to copy Alan Moore and Frank Miller.
@@TheRealComicBookGamer I honestly don't think Tom King is capable of anything
I'm glad DC did the DC Universe by Alan Moore because it shows more of Alan Moore as a story teller as opposed to his legacy due to Watchmen and the Killing Joke. In fact I would argue before Watchmen (not the actual series Before Watchmen) Alan Moore would write sometimes fun issues like when he created Rot Lop Fan the blind GL it was a heart warming story and its just as brilliant as his other stuff.
Alan Moore has a real appreciation for simple old fashioned fun comic stories. One of his best qualities is how intellectually honest and down to earth he is. He has a wide appreciation of comic books. He doesn't turn his nose up at certain styles like so many auteurs do. He's got nothing to prove so he doesn't act high and mighty. Wish more people were like him.
@@mphylo2296its sad hes just known as the dark comics guy. He doesnt even like the killing joke because of what it led to. Exactly this
Love this style of video. I've been absent from your channel recently due to lots of work etc. but seeing this vid, I wanna get back into your channel. I love your content and your views on comics/star wars etc. You're defo what made me somewhat interested in comics and the 'comic community'. Thx for this vid; the editing is excellent and your opinions are presented rly nicely and simply. Good to see ya again :P
Thanks man! I got caught up in work as well and that's why I haven't been posting as much lately, but comments like these are a big reason why I make videos.
You ask why people feel the need to like Alan Moore and not like Stan Lee, but I'm still wondering why any writer has to be like another when really a writer should be confident enough to be himself.
I feel like Tom King really did a good job on Omega Men and Mister Miracle which I think are some of the best recent comics ever. Omega men is about global world wide issues. Mister Miracle is personal. Its possible that maybe its harder to read Tom King in long form whereas Omega Men and Mister Miracle are great graphic novel type books. But that's what I think any. On writers being Alan Moore yeah its been a thing for a while since Watchmen and you're right I wish we can get away from Watchmen. But regardless you have some who do it well and others are not. But I think for writers I love like Grant Morrison he goes more for a Jack Kirby type who was very creative and very out there. Also what I love about Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns they try to appreciate all areas while simultaneously doing their own thing with the character. But not everyone is like that some just do their own take which is fine comic characters always have different versions as long as it works and is good I don't mind it.
ShadowofBatman Im a big fan of The New Gods, read all comics with them & King did a terrible job with them too. None of them was in character& he portrayed Darkseid as a total idiot, basically braindead. You can only excuse the story, that it was all just a dream, but still one of the worst New Gods stories I’ve read.
They want to be the next Alan Moore instead of making the next Spider-Man. Really good way of putting it.
It’s funny the one thing I like about Heroes in Crisis is that Harley wears her classic outfit. Everything else sucks
Yep but then it's ruined because every time she's on the page she's singing some dumb nursery rhyme, it's so annoying.
TheRealComicBookGamer the only way I can read it is via pretending it takes place in a universe where almost everyone is an idiot
TheRealComicBookGamer I just feel Tom King doesn’t understand what we want as fans. We don’t want to see our heroes killed pointlessly, we don’t wanna see Harley being all moody, we don’t want Batman and Superman to be jerks to each other, we don’t wanna see Nightwing shot in the head, and we certainly don’t wanna ever see our heroes the way he presents them. He writes Batman to be overly emotional and is always saying he works alone despite all his friends. I don’t mind a lot of what he did with Batman, but Batman #55 and Heroes in Crisis crossed the line. At least that’s what I think
King has solid plots and setups, BUT he undermines it with his writing. He is trying too hard to be clever. Everything dosnt need a deconstruction
There is NO way Babs would knock out Ted to help Harley. They were good friends pre-Flashpoint-even almost became a couple. As opposed to Harley, who-as I’ve been screaming since it was first announced was she was replacing Oracle in the Birds of Prey movie-IS THE LONGTIME GIRLFRIEND OF THE MAN WHO PARALYZED HER!
I have had a lot of ups and downs with Tom King. I love Gnarrk reciting Yeats in Heroes in Crisis #6. Mister Miracle gave me hope he could end stories well. Yet ever since Batman #51 he has been wilting down my good faith. He does interesting things but sometimes they feel more like experiments than fully fleshed out stories. I'm curious what you thought of King's story in Detective Comics #1,000?
The Omega Men is another good Tom King book.
Excellent points. Its insane how many characters Tom King ruined in Heroes in Crisis.
I agree with a lot of what you said the good and bad about Tom King. But I have to admit every time I read his comics I really enjoy myself. Still haven’t read Heroes In Crisis yet so idk about that.
Stay far away from Heroes in Crisis.
Will you do one on BMBendis?
I will eventually make a video on Bendis' Superman run, the only thing that's holding me back on that is the fact that I don't want to go back and re-read all of that garbage lol.
@@TheRealComicBookGamer agreed it has abandoned everything that made Superman & Action Comics good.
What are your thoughts on the joker trailer?
I loved it.
I'm still not totally sure how I feel about the actual stories he writes (only read his Batman stuff up until the end of Rebirth V5, The War of Jokes and Riddles), though I really hated his decision in that story to make Batman attempt to murder the Riddler, but all that aside, you know what Tom King can't do? Write dialogue. Like, good lord, characters just repeat everything all the time that it's almost as bad as ASBAR, and the "cat" "bat" thing just sounds fucking stupid. But, hey, even Scott Snyder (who's probably one of my favorite Batman writers ever) couldn't write dialogue that well. He didn't have characters needlessly repeat everything they said, but the main problem with his dialogue is a bit more vague. Like, I can't get Kevin Conroy's voice to come in for Batman's lines in either Snyder or King written stories. That's kind of how I judge good Batman dialogue: if I can't imagine Kevin Conroy saying it, it sucks.
The thing about deconstructing superheroes is that it gets tiresome. Even Moore get tired of it, he did Supreme in the 90s which was a love letter for Superman in the silver age after he quit DC
TheRealComicBookGamer:"Everyone wants to create the next Watchman, but no one wants to create the next Spiderman."
Me:"But I want to create the next Spiderman. Hell I've created two characters so far that fit that bill, and will be finishing the sequential artwork for a one-shot revolving around one of these characters soon. And hopefully Image will accept my submissions..."
You can fake your way around a deconstruction I think, characters not so much. In regards to Wally and Heroes and Crisis his work, and even his Batman to an extent I think it's worth noting that King knows how to show his characters broken but isn't so good at putting them back together and when it comes time to do that he stumbles through it. Heroes in Crisis should have been a bit more uplifting and positive at the end I think.
This man this monster. Deconstructs the superhero like all of stan lee fantastic four deconstructed the superhero genre but the stories were whimsical and fun. This man this monster is a sad almost depressing story yet somehow its still a fun read. Tom king should try something like that. Its also my favourite single issue ever made
I'd highly agree, King's real issue is trying too hard to try and be Alan Moore, that's not to say that King hasn't made great works, Mr. Miracle and The Vision are some truly fantastic work. But the main issue with his Batman is A. He's not good with more than 12 issue story arcs and B. He's trying too hard to be Alan Moore and change the medium.
King can be a brilliant writer, but he does have some flaws that can outweigh the good stuff of his work.
Batgirl saying "Har, honey!" is honestly insulting to read considering what she went through.
Tom King started his Batman run very well. I loved the start. Loved most of it running up to #49.
The wedding was really underwhelming. He left Thomas Wayne in a place that I don't think has done much for that character. Much of the story after #50 didn't feel deserved.
Some of my gripes. He did an issue with not much dialog, #67. I don't think it worked. Didn't have enough impact.
He also used song lyrics in many of this panels. This really didn't work. I didn't bother reading repetitive song lyrics that add nothing to the story.
Selina's relationship with Bruce started off interesting, but really felt forced later on.
People should leave 1986 for good. The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen have been severely ruined by hipsters.
because jack kirby did all the work for stan
Wow not a fan of the new Batgirl costume can't believe Harley Quinn and Batgirl became friends
Batgirl and harly are friends now cause they were victims of the joker. One was in abusive relationship the other was shot and....well you know the rest. Harley was not a victim she chose to stay for that mess. Now all of sudden they want to turn into a hero? And comic book writers need to stop acting like watchmen is the best comic book story ever written. Sure it was great for the time period it was made. If it was made today I doubt it would get the respect it did in the 80,s. Today comic book fans would consider it trash.
Heroes in crisis........what a mess, i agree, king's writing can sometimes work, but it's not for everyone.
I wanna be Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison..... Mark Waid too.
I guess maybe for heroes in crisis its a novel idea but should probably be set in a different universe or use totally original characters or something
off topic but scott snyder’s justice league is a chore to read. issues like 14-17 or something like that i don’t remember and even the beginning just was confusing. something about the totality and source wall and something
Mister Miracle was great because it was a 12 issue character study of Scott Free. It’s character driven and the dark tone feels appropriate because the series focuses on the psychological aftermath of what was a very messed up childhood. Heroes in Crisis on the other hand has small moments with characters that could work, but king doesn’t flesh them out. The series is driven by a murder mystery featuring versions of the characters i couldn’t care less about. That and the actual plot is going nowhere which makes for a dull read.
Regarding King’s dialogue, i like it when he’s working in a corner of the DCU. They talk like that in his corner and i’m fine with that. I think his style of dialogue worked really well in Mister Miracle. When he then has everyone talking like that from all these other corners of the universe... then it sounds bad.
I
People act like Alan Moore didnt also write fun stories. He did. He loved them unlike The Killing Joke. He also called out stan lee for not really being as big of a player as he claims, which is true. He took credit a lot in a roundabout way. Not a bob kane way though. Still, he doesnt hate stan or anything obvs. Hes a good guy but also insane, alan moore.
I call him the David cage of comics
Stan Lee's specialty was taking credit for Kirby's work.
.... what?
Mister Miracle is gr8, tho...
It balances quirkyness with darkness
Tom 'i was in the C.I.A and tortured people who were restrained' King, did Tom tell you he was in the C.I.A? He tells everyone, absolutely everyone.
I want to be Grant Morrison or someone cool! 8D
Dwayne McDuffie?
Nice job kid
Are you ever gonna bring back nerd talk I'm pretty sure it would get more views with the amount of Subs you have. Also don't be disheartened and stop making these comic vids just because you are getting low amount of views, keep going you can do it!
Don't have any plans to bring it back but who knows, maybe one day. Thanks man! I'll continue to make random comic videos, it's just hard to find the time to consistently make them but I'm trying.
Also, I'm always way behind on comics, so I'm just wondering why all the Heroes in Crisis stuff shows Batman and Superman wearing costumes that look so basic, almost like the Pre-Flashpoint stuff. I don't like that. I much prefer the more practical, armored looking designs that started to be a trend in the New 52. Instead, this looks like they both walk around in only spandex or something, which I guess is okay for Superman, but Batman isn't bulletproof. I may have hated the initial Rebirth costume (only thing I didn't hate was the cape lining being purple), but it was still better than what Batman seems to be wearing in Heroes in Crisis.
He dons his pre-flashpoint suit since batman 50,because catwoman left him.
So someone outside me did like Identity Crisis, jeje. If you asked me Heroes in Crisis is Identity Crisis successor, it has the same energy with the "Comics have evolved thingie proceeds to slip in a banana". Just think about it
*Mistery Murder plot .
*Heavy sometimes forced Drama.
*"Psychology and "Adult Themes"" ;)
The only missing piece is that the ex-wife of the atom or another minor character did it and it would be the perfect spiritual succesor to Identity crisis. It was one of the first comic i read when i could buy comics on my own , so i do like that compilation non-ironically and this is pretty much it . I am engufing on it as a desperate lady watches a soap opera . blag blad! I can't believe they keep slipping on the same banana but they always do!!!
Loved the video, you got a subscriber! Please make a script and retry your lines when they don't go too well, though. Your flow is uneven and still feels hurried. Luck!
I liked Grayson I haven't read it in a while but I remember like the while sexy spy vibe but with dick grandson humor that I love and I also like the Batman superman double date also the fact that King, a Batman writer, a person who has barely touched Superman ever wrote superman and Louis better than Bendis which I think is hilarious.
My least favorite book is probably City of Bane I thought the whole thing was kinda unrealistic and I feel like at one point he was trying to write Batman as this lonely unfeely dark character which I didn't really like that muce
Alan Moore is god
I think he’s better with short term stories
Facts.
Identity Crisis 2.0 !!!!!
This is a typecast of both writers imo. The problem isn’t trying to do a deconstruction or dark story the problem is Heroes in Crisis just sucked. Man of tomorrow is full of the whole light vs dark meta conversation about comic writing and Geoff Johns has been beating that theme to death for years especially in doomsday clock lmao. Lots of writers write something bad MM and Vision are great just like Alan Moore wrote lost girls and that is trash.
Heroes In Crisis is the reason why I quit reading Tom King stories.
All respects to Stan Lee but Jack Kirby and Alan Moore are in a different league.
I'd say Frank Miller and Stan Lee are in the same league.
Tom King and Alan Moore should never be named in the same sentence. King writes awful unreadable dialogues& writes characters out of character. He turned Batman into a crybaby, who can’t get over his ex. Moore created epic stories like Watchmen. But Yeah King tries to be Moore, but can’t keep up with him. However King wrote Dick as a total idiot in 55. It was awful. Worse than HIC.
My favorite batman arc from TK is The Gift with Booster Gold. And I pick that up because BG was in Action Comics
Great video but you're talking really fast so yeah work on that
Tom King completely destroyed the character of Wally West and clearly has no idea how to write for super speedsters. Wally has been a speedster since he was a preteen, his brain and his body works at the zeptosecond. I don't care how distraught he is, he would not have lashed out like that. And that isn't even how the Speedforce works or every speedster villain would be using it that way. And if he had, he would have been quick enough to get the people out of the way. And if he hadn't, Clark, Diana, and Bruce would have found him on his knees crying because he is a god damn hero, not a psychopath! He would not have staged a murder. And as you pointed out, Barbar Gordon would not be hugging the girlfriend of the man who crippled and probably raped her. She just wouldn't Barbara is supposed to be a genius. hell, Ted is supposed to be a near-genius and they both come across as idiots here. And for a supposed former CIA guy, this wasn't even a decent murder mystery. And lastly, what was his philosophical fascination with Gnark? This book could have been an issue shorter if he'd cut all that stuff out.
Stan Lee never created anything He co-created with Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko After they stopped working with Lee, WHAT CHARACTER DID LEE CREATE (She Hulk & Stan Lee presents... we're created by committee). None wants to be Stan Lee because he's of the past, as in the 1960s
No disputing Alan Moore, but Watchmen on such a high pedestal isn’t his best work . From Hell and Miracle Man are far better . Also, the best graphic novel of all time is Möbius and Joworsky’s The Incal- it’s not even close. I’m tired of the herd like admiration of the Watchmen when every mormon dives into the mediocre and predictable volcano’s mouth of societal “expectations “ and class based pre determined outcomes . 🤮
Superman Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow is my personal favorite of Alan Moore's work. What he did with Mister Mxyzptlk was fascinating and For The Man Who Has Everything was amazing.
I feel like King's stuff has all been done. I liked Mr. Miracle but didn't love it. Omega Men was well done but not really innovative to me.
Tom Kong’s Vision and Mr.Miracle are the best books he has ever written. The Batman books are trash compared to these two books.
My friend lent me Heroes in Crisis and I had no idea who Tom King was. I got halfway through it and put it down. Now I can't stop watching vids on him! He is a terrible writer and I will never read his books again.
lets be honest, the writing is terrible but the art is beautiful
wow. completely disagree with everything you said.
you seem to hold stan lee up on a pedastal and not realize the guy wrote terrible dialogue. and aslo being stan lee means screwing over kirby and ditko
you talk about fun stories but seem to forget that stan lees main goto for superhero books was writing about heroes feeling bad and hating being superheroes. like literally every ff story involved their marriage falling apart.
Personally, I'm loving Heroes in Crisis. I think it's a great concept, great writing, and great art. There's a lot of truth in those pages.
LOL!!!!
Well you can’t please everyone. Personally I love heroes in crisis. Everything is captured very well in both the art and the writing.
i liked mister miracle but hoic is just a bit much
Too much focus on Alan Moore, Frank Miller's DKR was an equal influence, probably greater if we're talking about Batman. And yeah, THIS is another Tom King disappointment.
While Miller arguably had just as big of an impact on the comic book industry as Moore I focused on Alan Moore because when reading King's work it's very clear that he is much more influenced by Moore than Miller.
@@TheRealComicBookGamer Fair enough, thank you for the response.
2nd
It's not artistic. It's not realistic. It's just awkward. Stop.
Tom King is a hack and has had a reign of terror on Batman his Vision and Miracle Man are his only good comics
Stan Lee cant write, didnt write nada.
1st
Stan lee is a con man
All these books are ugly and terrible all over, nothing of value.