Armor pen items are not exactly getting a nerf tho. armor pen in tbc is a flat amount of armor, armor pen rating is a %, that's why the value is different. but overall its the same, and versus a tank it's actually a huge upgrade
you're 100% right and I made an error. I've updated the status of this video retracting that statement and providing clarification. Hopefully these armor pen comments will calm down!
@@Rugsz your not accounting for steady shot damage on the bow. Steady uses bow damage and not arrow damage. Difference in bows probably much closer than you think.
Armor pen rating stat is not the same as armor ignored that is used in tbc... its not an apples to apples comparison, and it should account for a lot of the difference you're seeing on the wrath gear.
To be more exact about the armorpen issue: Most tbc raid bosses have, after debuffs, 1715 or 3215 armor. Wotlk raid bosses have ~8000 armor, of which 7700 can be reduced by armorpen. Wrath armor pen at level 80 is 13.99 rating for 1%, capping at 1399 rating to ignore 100% of the ignorable armor. If you want to translate the values, then 14 armorpen rating from wrath is on level 80 equivalent to 77 armorpen in tbc numbers, so gloves of immortal dusk would have 121 flat armor pen on lvl 80 againbst a wrath raidboss. In prepatch on level 70, the 22 armorpen is 3.27%, so oyu only need 6.72 armorpen rating for 1% armorpen. Most tbc raidbosses with the wrath armor debuffs will have 5850 or 4712 armor. So, in the end the effective armor ignored by those glvoes is 183 or 148. So about the same or even a slight buff on level 70, but do keep in mind that the bosses have a lot more armor than before.
''Wotlk raid bosses have ~8000 armor, of which 7700 can be reduced by armorpen.'' That's not the case. WotLK raid bosses have a total of 10.643 armor points. Now, the formula for armor reduction coming from ArP goes like this> Armor reduction = (Armor + C) / 3 Armor> 10643. C is a constant given by the number 15.232,5. When you use the formula, the amount of armor that you can reduce (with arp) from a lvl 83 mob is 8.625,16 and here's the ''up to'' part shown on your ArP values on character spreadsheet. The remaining 2017,84 armor is still on the boss and can be reduced by effects that apply as a percentage over the initial armor value (AKA> sunder armor and FF). The exponential value of arp (which is extremely weird on wotlk stats since they tend to have linear values or decreasing even) is given by how armor reduces the physical damage taken and can be checked via any armor/ armor reduction spreadsheet that has verifiable math behind. If it was actually a thing that WoTLK raid bosses had 8k armor or so, the 90% arp would mean an effective 100% armor reduction rendering Sunder armor and FF useless for 90%+ arp geared chars and also pushing a lot of builds around the insane value of ArP even on early tiers (maybe T8 builds in which everyone knows on progression that gemming as much ArP as possible is just a dps loss). This doesn't mean that ArP is a bad stat, on the contrary it's amazing but only works on sort-of endgame gear and it's due to the 10.643 armor that level 83 targets have.
@@vezax8505 @Vezax 10643 is the value before armor reduction from sunder and ff. After it's about 8000. Arp is applied to the boss armor after the reduction. I have no idea why you think arp, a stat which allows you to ignore a percentage of armor, is applied before effects which directly affect a targets real armor value. So the roughly 8000 armor a boss has after the two armor debuffs is the basis of the arp calculation, not the bosses base armor.
@@dulkansilberaxt ''So the roughly 8000 armor a boss has after the two armor debuffs is the basis of the arp calculation, not the bosses base armor.'' No, the basis of calculation on ArP is the total amount of armor a boss has. From that you get a flat amount for a specific number of armor. Then make it explicit> ''after %armor reducing effects such as Sunder armor and FF''. If we go there saying ''bosses have 8k armor'' most people will actually believe it and will bring retarded stuff such as ''then with 90% arp we're fine''. ''I have no idea why you think arp, a stat which allows you to ignore a percentage of armor, is applied before effects which directly affect a targets real armor value.'' Mostly because ArP ignores a *flat* amount of armor (and not an actual percentage) once an amount is given as the formula that I've provided refers. Just in case you missed it> Armor reduction = (Armor + C) / 3 If you change ''armor'' value the amount that ArP will be able to by-pass will change (that's where most people gets messed up and call it a % reduction but it's specifically for every armor value).On the specific case of 10.643, the total amount of armor that ArP can ignore is 8625,15 which is a flat number and not an actual percentage of the remaining/total armor.
@@vezax8505 You are accusing me of being unclear, when in your first repsonse you brought the wrong statement, that ArP can reduce 8625 armor and sunder/ff then reduce the remaining 2k armor based on the bosses initial armor. It doesn't work like that. First sunder/ff reduce the bosses armor from 10643 to 8068. Then you apply your formula, which results in 7767. And that's the armor that's possible to penetrate. 1% arp, will penetrate 1% of that armor, so a flat value of 77.67.
The best AND worst thing about your videos is that it's WotLK content which i love, but it also builds more and more hype which is a negative thing atm with it being so so so far away, can't wait for the release, great content, keep it up!
The scarab broach from viscidus is still broken and his for alot of healers. If I remember correctly it was still being used on world first lich king because there was no limit to scaling until cata.
The armor pen information is wrong I think, its certainly not a 7x nerf, its just a change in how armor pen is calculated (from pure armor ignored to % armor ignored), likely to prevent armor pen directly harming low armor targets (such as warlocks and priests in pvp ) in a disproportionate way, a warrior in t6 could expect to ignore 100% of an enemy warlock's armor but only like 15% of an enemy warrior's armor. Armor pen in tbc is completely broken against low armor targets and gets weaker the higher the armor of your target which is counterintuitive. For example, the gloves of immortal dusk ignore 154 armor currently, but a raid boss has 6200-7700 armor and in wrath they ignore 3.27% armor, which is 202-251, I don't know if the armor reduced is applied before or after armor reductions such as sunder, cor, ff etc, but the gloves aren't changed from ignoring 154 armor to 22, unless your target has 600 armor in total
lmao. "sunwell gear is good and here's some shit about armor pen that I don't understand" sick vid man thanks for the side by side comparison of KJ loot and wrath blues. never would have figured that one out
@@Rugsz I’ll be Resto Druid in Wrath. I think I might just go Alchemy herbalism. So my flask costs will be much cheaper. Even though that isn’t the BiS setup.
@@Jive33 yeah if you’re fine with not min/maxing all the way it’s totally fine. Alchemy on rdruid is still good and it’s not as important for healers to giga min/max as it is for dps/tanks
@Rugs Just to be clear Thoridal DID NOT suck for the expansion it was designed for. It sucks in Wrath because that was when they changed Steady Shot to include the Projectile damage in it's calculations.
Great video, thansk for the time you invnested in this, just one comment, In the trinket session, you mentioned Mark of the War Prisioner has 73 haste, but it's hit.
Can you make a video on Prot Pally gear to aim for in TBC? I know due to the reworks prot paladins stop stacking sp, I'd like to see what gear I should end up grabbing and making a set early so I can tank Naxx week 1.
STOP SAYING THORODAL IS BAD BECAUSE IT DOESN"T USE ARROWS. While it is true in wrath, I feel the need to point this out: the dps value tied to what arrows you use does not apply to ABILITIES in TBC, i.e. what arrow you use with your bow (or don't use) HAS ZERO effect on the damage scaling of your steady shot. Thori'dal having waaaay higher base damage actually is a bis deal, even if bow dps + arrow dps might look like a low total. So yes in wrath its not great, but before then DO NOT BE TRICKED INTO THINKING THE ORANGE BOW IS BAD, and for the love of god do not give it to a warrior/rogue. This message brought to you by a classic Warrior/Rogue main who is now playing a warlock in TBC. If I catch any of my fellow warriors advocating for this to be looted to them over hunters, kindly piss off.
I'm pretty sure the Strath idol for bear is still bis in tbc for raw threat assuming you have enough rage gen and the wrath idol is just a super buffed version of that. A flat dmg Amp is very strong especially on abilities you can spam such as maul on almost every auto with enough rage and swipe on every gcd ur not using mangle due to cd
Is Darkmoon Card: Greatness not BiS for all physical DPS then? Whetstone and Mirror look like a pretty solid option for most, though double haste may be better for some.
I'm a little late to the party but i'm curious on your thoughts of the mage t5 2 piece bonus? Mage BC discord is having a bit of a battle of how strong arcane will be with the 2 piece being a free 20% damage.
I think the bow from eredar twins in swp (golden bow of quel'thalas) is better than the legendary bow for hunters, because of the quivers/arrows, correct me if im wrong
In tbc? no. Because steady isn't affected by ammo damage and t6 bonus 4 set, Thoridal is like 200+ dps over golden bow. Its not close. With wrath ammo it might be better, because of steady shot changes but pretty sure they are about the same.
Turned off video moment you made armor pen comment. The fact you both 1. Don't know how to read and 2. Obviously don't know what you're talking about, makes me disbelieve anything of value this video could have brought
Armor pen items are not exactly getting a nerf tho. armor pen in tbc is a flat amount of armor, armor pen rating is a %, that's why the value is different. but overall its the same, and versus a tank it's actually a huge upgrade
you're 100% right and I made an error. I've updated the status of this video retracting that statement and providing clarification. Hopefully these armor pen comments will calm down!
@@Rugsz tbh, honest mistake, might be worth a reupload though cuz ur gonna get a lot of armor pen comments
@@Rugsz smh my head - just reupload i came to comments after only 1 minute into the video about to see if anyone brought his up
@@blakethetank And 3 months later it’s still up. 1 minute in I knew to just avoid this guy’s videos
@@Rugsz your not accounting for steady shot damage on the bow. Steady uses bow damage and not arrow damage. Difference in bows probably much closer than you think.
Love your content homie. Keep it pumpin.
just discovered your channel.. is very helpful and gotten me super exited about wrath.. keep em coming!
thanks dude. I really appreciate it so much
Armor pen is not the same in Wrath as in TBC. Armor Penetration RATING is a new system
Armor pen rating stat is not the same as armor ignored that is used in tbc... its not an apples to apples comparison, and it should account for a lot of the difference you're seeing on the wrath gear.
To be more exact about the armorpen issue:
Most tbc raid bosses have, after debuffs, 1715 or 3215 armor. Wotlk raid bosses have ~8000 armor, of which 7700 can be reduced by armorpen. Wrath armor pen at level 80 is 13.99 rating for 1%, capping at 1399 rating to ignore 100% of the ignorable armor. If you want to translate the values, then 14 armorpen rating from wrath is on level 80 equivalent to 77 armorpen in tbc numbers, so gloves of immortal dusk would have 121 flat armor pen on lvl 80 againbst a wrath raidboss.
In prepatch on level 70, the 22 armorpen is 3.27%, so oyu only need 6.72 armorpen rating for 1% armorpen. Most tbc raidbosses with the wrath armor debuffs will have 5850 or 4712 armor. So, in the end the effective armor ignored by those glvoes is 183 or 148. So about the same or even a slight buff on level 70, but do keep in mind that the bosses have a lot more armor than before.
''Wotlk raid bosses have ~8000 armor, of which 7700 can be reduced by armorpen.''
That's not the case. WotLK raid bosses have a total of 10.643 armor points.
Now, the formula for armor reduction coming from ArP goes like this>
Armor reduction = (Armor + C) / 3
Armor> 10643. C is a constant given by the number 15.232,5.
When you use the formula, the amount of armor that you can reduce (with arp) from a lvl 83 mob is 8.625,16 and here's the ''up to'' part shown on your ArP values on character spreadsheet. The remaining 2017,84 armor is still on the boss and can be reduced by effects that apply as a percentage over the initial armor value (AKA> sunder armor and FF).
The exponential value of arp (which is extremely weird on wotlk stats since they tend to have linear values or decreasing even) is given by how armor reduces the physical damage taken and can be checked via any armor/ armor reduction spreadsheet that has verifiable math behind.
If it was actually a thing that WoTLK raid bosses had 8k armor or so, the 90% arp would mean an effective 100% armor reduction rendering Sunder armor and FF useless for 90%+ arp geared chars and also pushing a lot of builds around the insane value of ArP even on early tiers (maybe T8 builds in which everyone knows on progression that gemming as much ArP as possible is just a dps loss).
This doesn't mean that ArP is a bad stat, on the contrary it's amazing but only works on sort-of endgame gear and it's due to the 10.643 armor that level 83 targets have.
@@vezax8505 @Vezax 10643 is the value before armor reduction from sunder and ff. After it's about 8000. Arp is applied to the boss armor after the reduction.
I have no idea why you think arp, a stat which allows you to ignore a percentage of armor, is applied before effects which directly affect a targets real armor value.
So the roughly 8000 armor a boss has after the two armor debuffs is the basis of the arp calculation, not the bosses base armor.
@@dulkansilberaxt
''So the roughly 8000 armor a boss has after the two armor debuffs is the basis of the arp calculation, not the bosses base armor.''
No, the basis of calculation on ArP is the total amount of armor a boss has. From that you get a flat amount for a specific number of armor.
Then make it explicit> ''after %armor reducing effects such as Sunder armor and FF''.
If we go there saying ''bosses have 8k armor'' most people will actually believe it and will bring retarded stuff such as ''then with 90% arp we're fine''.
''I have no idea why you think arp, a stat which allows you to ignore a percentage of armor, is applied before effects which directly affect a targets real armor value.''
Mostly because ArP ignores a *flat* amount of armor (and not an actual percentage) once an amount is given as the formula that I've provided refers.
Just in case you missed it>
Armor reduction = (Armor + C) / 3
If you change ''armor'' value the amount that ArP will be able to by-pass will change (that's where most people gets messed up and call it a % reduction but it's specifically for every armor value).On the specific case of 10.643, the total amount of armor that ArP can ignore is 8625,15 which is a flat number and not an actual percentage of the remaining/total armor.
@@vezax8505 You are accusing me of being unclear, when in your first repsonse you brought the wrong statement, that ArP can reduce 8625 armor and sunder/ff then reduce the remaining 2k armor based on the bosses initial armor. It doesn't work like that. First sunder/ff reduce the bosses armor from 10643 to 8068. Then you apply your formula, which results in 7767. And that's the armor that's possible to penetrate. 1% arp, will penetrate 1% of that armor, so a flat value of 77.67.
The best AND worst thing about your videos is that it's WotLK content which i love, but it also builds more and more hype which is a negative thing atm with it being so so so far away, can't wait for the release, great content, keep it up!
its ok now im playing tbc because of him
The scarab broach from viscidus is still broken and his for alot of healers. If I remember correctly it was still being used on world first lich king because there was no limit to scaling until cata.
The armor pen information is wrong I think, its certainly not a 7x nerf, its just a change in how armor pen is calculated (from pure armor ignored to % armor ignored), likely to prevent armor pen directly harming low armor targets (such as warlocks and priests in pvp ) in a disproportionate way, a warrior in t6 could expect to ignore 100% of an enemy warlock's armor but only like 15% of an enemy warrior's armor. Armor pen in tbc is completely broken against low armor targets and gets weaker the higher the armor of your target which is counterintuitive.
For example, the gloves of immortal dusk ignore 154 armor currently, but a raid boss has 6200-7700 armor and in wrath they ignore 3.27% armor, which is 202-251, I don't know if the armor reduced is applied before or after armor reductions such as sunder, cor, ff etc, but the gloves aren't changed from ignoring 154 armor to 22, unless your target has 600 armor in total
That's actually really interesting and a great point. Thanks for commenting this man
The conversion rate is about 7 ArP = 1 ArP rating, madness with wrath calcuations would have like 297 armor penetration
Thoridal is BiS for farming. Hunters can dump the quiver and get another bag when doing mindless farming.
lmao. "sunwell gear is good and here's some shit about armor pen that I don't understand"
sick vid man thanks for the side by side comparison of KJ loot and wrath blues. never would have figured that one out
Kind of video I'm looking for, thank you Rugs
Another video. Sweet!
Love the side-by-side comparisons. Keep it up man.
thank so much. I was excited to put this one out
@@Rugsz I’ll be Resto Druid in Wrath. I think I might just go Alchemy herbalism. So my flask costs will be much cheaper. Even though that isn’t the BiS setup.
@@Jive33 yeah if you’re fine with not min/maxing all the way it’s totally fine. Alchemy on rdruid is still good and it’s not as important for healers to giga min/max as it is for dps/tanks
@@Rugsz I’d rather have enchanting and alchemy, but I need herbs so…gotta do herbalism
@Rugs Just to be clear Thoridal DID NOT suck for the expansion it was designed for. It sucks in Wrath because that was when they changed Steady Shot to include the Projectile damage in it's calculations.
Great video, thansk for the time you invnested in this, just one comment, In the trinket session, you mentioned Mark of the War Prisioner has 73 haste, but it's hit.
Thoridal gives you an extra bag slot which is great for a farming alt...
Stumbled across this channel. Its awesome dude. Would love to see a pre-raid BIS ret pally video and a dungeon leveling to 80! Keep up the good work!
Ret pali is ass until ICC. Please do the people you pug with a favor and just roll Prot/Holy
Just want to point out the “mark of the war partner” is 73 hit rating not 73 haste
thanks for looking out for us gamer rugs
essence of gossamer is Beast for any farming set for tank classes. helps you pull bigger pulls
Can you make a video on Prot Pally gear to aim for in TBC? I know due to the reworks prot paladins stop stacking sp, I'd like to see what gear I should end up grabbing and making a set early so I can tank Naxx week 1.
Yo. I made a video just for you. I hope this is what you were looking for:
ruclips.net/video/GA99693gMoc/видео.html&ab_channel=Rugs
@@Rugsz Ye dude that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for! :D
Nice content dude ,looking forward for the dual wield udk :)
STOP SAYING THORODAL IS BAD BECAUSE IT DOESN"T USE ARROWS.
While it is true in wrath, I feel the need to point this out: the dps value tied to what arrows you use does not apply to ABILITIES in TBC, i.e. what arrow you use with your bow (or don't use) HAS ZERO effect on the damage scaling of your steady shot. Thori'dal having waaaay higher base damage actually is a bis deal, even if bow dps + arrow dps might look like a low total. So yes in wrath its not great, but before then DO NOT BE TRICKED INTO THINKING THE ORANGE BOW IS BAD, and for the love of god do not give it to a warrior/rogue.
This message brought to you by a classic Warrior/Rogue main who is now playing a warlock in TBC. If I catch any of my fellow warriors advocating for this to be looted to them over hunters, kindly piss off.
I am pretty sure the Bear Idol would be a massive threat upgrade.
I'm pretty sure the Strath idol for bear is still bis in tbc for raw threat assuming you have enough rage gen and the wrath idol is just a super buffed version of that. A flat dmg Amp is very strong especially on abilities you can spam such as maul on almost every auto with enough rage and swipe on every gcd ur not using mangle due to cd
pre-raid bis? you can clear all of nax and os in sunwell gear
Good video but you confused armor pen and armor pen *rating*
Really enjoy ur videos!
Quick question I never played wrath ~ how long will P2 TBC gear last in wrath?
The armor pen isnt a nerf.. they just changed it from a set value to a rating.. have another look at it
Is Darkmoon Card: Greatness not BiS for all physical DPS then? Whetstone and Mirror look like a pretty solid option for most, though double haste may be better for some.
Love the lack of understanding that it goes from arm pen to arm pen rating it pens a % going into wotlk and it’s a buff for 70-74 roughly
how do you only have 700 subscribers lmao, keep up and you're gonna blow up my guy
damn ty so much bro
No problem, mark is a really good trinket overall if your luck is bad from getting the hit trinket from naxx 25
Can't wait to replace all this shit at level 78!
Nesingwary 4000 gun also a good option especially for dwarf.
I want to know if there is a badge of the swarmguard equivalent. *also wrong idol, the supremus one or the epic flight form one will still be better.
Cool video. Hate to burst your bubble, but y'all do know where "Classic" is headed right?
yo ima be penatrating some stuff but not exactly armor knawmsayin...hahahaha SEX
To be honest,Phase 1Naxx is a joke,there is no fcking Need in minmaxing this Face at all ,this will be cleared 2 Or 3h when its open 100%
My question is: is badge of the swarmguard finally dead? Or will it still at least be viable for trinket swapping
DEAD
its armor pen raiting not flat out armor reduction....
what about the healing trinketts from classic vanilla? i thought they were still really good?
I still want the bow for my hunter. Think of the gold saved when leveling. And for solo farming it removes the cost of farming on my hunter.
How do get those plate shoulders for DK form Sunwell? :P
Wondering about badge of the swarmguard now
Hey what about the healing trinket from visc in aq40 does it stack with the legendary from wrath?
What about glaives???
Any good weapons for DK ?
Mark of the War Prisoner is Hit not haste 11:10
He what about INT trinkets for holy paladins? doesnt seems to have a lot available in phase 1
you'll use the DMC int card for a long time. Plus the JC int trinket will be bis for p1. Those 2 are solid
Spirit doesn't work the same in wrath as it does in TBC.
My tbc guild has run grull every week ....not a single date has dropped lol.
Is any of this gonna matter since it’s gonna be fresh servers
What about Warglaives?
Liked and subbed my friend
Warglaives?
Do we need resist gear for wotlk
I don’t think so, most of the time frost resist gear was needed on private servers where they boosted bosses dmg & health.
Weird way to just say keep your sunwell gear + DST🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm a little late to the party but i'm curious on your thoughts of the mage t5 2 piece bonus? Mage BC discord is having a bit of a battle of how strong arcane will be with the 2 piece being a free 20% damage.
Ur armor pen comparison is bs becouse its % in wrath and in tbc its amount of armor
all i see except armor pen mistake: just get BiS gear tbc against wrath pre raid gear xD
aaye, this is nice
Hmm the green gem from wotlk better and this all item better sunwell good for lvling up and some Doungen heroic
Stopped watching as soon as you talked about ArP
I think the bow from eredar twins in swp (golden bow of quel'thalas) is better than the legendary bow for hunters, because of the quivers/arrows, correct me if im wrong
In tbc? no. Because steady isn't affected by ammo damage and t6 bonus 4 set, Thoridal is like 200+ dps over golden bow. Its not close. With wrath ammo it might be better, because of steady shot changes but pretty sure they are about the same.
Legendary bow's a wep for warriors+rogues :D
Turned off video moment you made armor pen comment. The fact you both 1. Don't know how to read and 2. Obviously don't know what you're talking about, makes me disbelieve anything of value this video could have brought
I can't believe you made such a huge blunder about armor pen lol. You should probably delete this video. How embarrassing.
Do u mind doing content about professions from TBC to Warth, like how usefull will be mantaining tailoring to warth any BIS items from it etc