Yeah, Lolth really is a difficult sell for me. They have deliberately created her to be both beautiful and repulsive at the same time but really, regardless of that, when you look at her actions, you need to be insane to voluntarily worship her. Great video!
I personally play male characters and usually some form of magic caster, so her 'men are slaves' and 'oh look a sorcerer, imma turn him into a drider' policies are a problem from a roleplaying perspective. Especially when the campaign is happening outside of Underdark - which it usually is. I mean, if you're on the surface, as a drow guy, somehow you don't get racismed into an early grave and manage to make a living there... There's literally no reason not to change faith. Literally any deity other than Lolth is just straight up better. Because no other god will punish you for becoming more powerful via a barrage of increasingly more difficult tasks, just so she can watch you fail eventually and broadcast your transformation into a spider boy to all her priestesses, to reinforce their faith in the matriarchy of the drow.
From the point of view of D&D lore (which is not supposed to have the Lolth drow as playable characters, but only as villains), the Lolth mythology is not the truth, but it's what is believed by people to whom the drow are villains, and so the drow's main goddess must of course be a ridiculously over-the-top embodiment of insanity and evil. I very much doubt that the drow believe the same myths about Lolth (people never see themselves, or their own gods, as evil), but unfortunately, a drow view of Lolth isn't something that is explored in D&D lore, since the drow are villains and the players are not supposed to see anything from their point of view, ever. In other words, anything that is ever said about Lolth in D&D lore can be viewed as one-sided Seldarine propaganda. If one wants to play as drow (going against the design of the game and the setting), then one must fill in the gaps as to how the "other side" may see this deity differently.
@@alexeyvlasenko6622 Isn't the distinction here that Seladrine has Good alignments, meaning that they actually are good vs Lolths evil alignments, it's not really propaganda if the cosmic space you come from is a plane of good
Lolth is fascinating. Cruel, self-serving and chaotic to the extreme, but that is what makes her much more complex that other gods. Lloth, due to her inherent unpredictability, is capable of causing more than pure evil while still remaining totally evil herself. Her ways of spreading chaos are varried and can be both subtle, and direct. The above-mentioned Drizzt is theorized to be one of her favorite champions despite his overt hatred of her. Lloth seems to enjoy the walking paradox that he is. Drizzt does his best to do good and to show everyone that drow can be good. He helped many and made numerous friends, but wherever he goes trouble soon follows. About half the time it has something to do with his kin from Menzoberanzzan, who go to extreme length to kill him for his heresy and in other times it's volcano eruptions, large-scale orc invasions, sentient and malicious artifacts attempting to take over. Chaos seems to follow him everywhere. He is also incredibly hard to kill. Drizzt survived being trapped in Abyss, he fought a Balor in single combat several times and won, he has fought and killed the majority of renowned duelists from his own home city, broke free and destroyed a Mind Flayer enclave and he also defeated Demogorgon, although with some help. He also had a dubious honor of receiving a smooch from the goddess herself. With the amount of trouble Drizzt been through he should have been dead long before he made it to the surface. One can see why Lloth priesthood in hushed whispers speak of him being one of Lloth's most favoured. It seems that to Lloth chaos matters more than evil. One can only wonder just how many Lloth's secret favoured there are in the world.
I suppose trying to do good in a society full of evil creates far more chaos in that society than going with the evil flow, same for the reverse. That's interesting to think she'd appreciate those who scorn her because they're still creating chaos in the world.
@@BIGESTblade cruel, self-serving and chaotic? no sorry, not all gods are like that, fortunately XD Tricksters gods are actually usually complex and unpredicatable characters XD. Sure, Lolth is very chaotic and hard to predict but the fact that whatever she do is to benefit herself and will never do anything selfless or good doesn't really make her a complex character. You might not know what her plot is about but you can be sure it's not good for anyone beside the Spider-Queen.
My own idea is Lloth is simply a "crazy ex", her biggest agenda to me, is causing as much pain as possible to Corellon. and because he loves all elves, specialy drow who he once created in the image he loved most (lloth herself) her strategy is to turn drow society into inherently sick and and horrible to live place so they themselves can suffer, and instill hatred that all their woes were because other elven bloodlines, so they would go out of their way to harm and bring suffering on them as well. i think the fact that she still exist is a testemant that corellon still harbors some miniscule amount of love her. and her continued existence is corellon's biggest mistake. and she knows it.
Hot take- Corelllon is a terrible deity. 1. Gets cucked by an ugly ass orc God. 2. Punishes his lieutenant for a small fuck up, resulting in him becoming one of the biggest threats to the elves and spawning the fey'ri. 3. Spares a lower tier elf God who actually did betray him. 4. Wants his race to return to being formless do nothings and will dunk them back in the mortal place over and over again, risking them to fall to the lower planes or just switching worship to some other God. 5. Terrible taste in women.
@@yvesorzel4518 uh when did Corellon get cucked by an ugly ass orc god? 2 what lieutnant? 3 well, he did also spared Gruumsh, a mortal ennemy because he was disarmed and wounded so, that might be a habit of his XD 4 i think that depend on the edition. 5 Do you think Angharradh is also a poor choice?
@@alexeyvlasenko6622 Yes, that's pretty much the point of view of the Drows about the Seldarine: They were betrayed and cast out by the surfaces elves and their weak gods. their society is so twisted that they don't see Lolth and what they do as really evil since they don't have any alternatives to take example from. they have no contacts with more benevolents species and everything in the Underdark is trying to kill you so it pretty much confort them in their belief that to survive in a harsh world, you have to be harsher.
I do believe there's one thing Lolth loves: Spiders. I mean, maybe it's because it's her religious symbol, but in her clergy it is punishible by death to harm a spider. Also she did choose the form of a spider before becoming a deity and aquiring the portfolio of spiders, so at the very least she must like the aesthetic of them.
She was banished into the abyss along with her children and cursed with the appearance of a spider demon. It was here that Araushnee took the name Lolth and made her home in the 66th layer of the abyss. She eventually ran into a demon prince called Zanassu who had dominion over spiders at the time. Due to her new appearance Lolth decided it was only right that she would have that dominion for herself, so she tricked the deity Selvetarm into destroying the demon prince - and soon after she regained her divinity which she used to turn her layer of the abyss into the Demonweb Pits, a massive spider web to match her new persona. Lolth also has complete control over all spiders and can use them to spy for her which is why killing a spider is instant death for a Drow.
I almost were surprised when playing bg3 that there is no punishment for attacking phase spiders, or at least an alternative method of exploring that cave and a Lolth-sworn.
Want to know how evil Lolth is, consider what she did to her Grandson. (This is 2nd and 3rd edition lore not sure he made it to fifth may have been killed off) The Champion of Lolth. First she tricked him into defeating and absorbing the strength and powers of a Spider Demon. Then she broke his will and mind making him into a puppet, literally of her will. He is incapable of any thoughts of his own, his every moment, is dedicated to her will, not because he wants to be that way but because he has been utterly broken. Her Grandson
I'm not particularly impressed. There are like a dozen books that claim to be written by survivors of real-life satan1c cults. You can decide for yourself if you believe them to be genuine, but they're full of anecdotes that are far more horrifying than what any D&D fiction writer can come up with. For example (only read on if you're okay with reading awful and horrific and mind-scarring stories): In one book I've read, a woman claimed that when she was a child, she was taught that when her handler said "kill this other child or we'll torture it to death in front of your eyes", the handler meant it. If she refused, the other child really would be tortured to death in front of her eyes if she refused. After refusing once and being forced to watch, she learned to obey. Two decades later, said woman had her own child and she did something that her handler didn't like. So her handler said "kill your own child or we'll torture it to death in front of you." So she did, knowing that if she refused, her child would literally be tortured to death in front of her. Then her handler gave her another look-alike child and told her to pretend that it was hers, to keep up appearances for the outside world. So then she had to pretend that another child, kidnapped from God knows where, was actually her child, after she was forced to kill her own. And this book claims that this happened in real life. ----- Or in another book, a rich satan1st wanted to show off to his buddies and please, well, the being he worshipped. So he found a miserable mother and her child who were living on the street. He had a wheelchair made for her, because she couldn't walk properly. He gave her a place to stay. The kid got new clothes. The mother and child were besides themselves with joy. Then he invited her to a meal with a couple of his friends. She accepted and his butler helped her get seated on the table. She asked where her child was, and was told he would be with her momentarily. While the meal was being prepared, she talked to her benefactor's friends. They were very polite and obviously rich, but there seemed to be some in-joke between them that she didn't understand. She somehow felt uncomfortable, even though these people had saved her from the street. Eventually dinner was about to be served, she asked again where her child was and was again told he'd be there very soon. She then definitely felt that something was wrong, but where else could she go? She ate dinner with the group. After the meal it was revealed that her child had been the meat served in the main course. The satan1sts enjoyed watching her lose her mind at the realization that she'd eaten her own child. Then they killed her. And again, this is written up in a book and the author claimed this really happened, in our world.
alternative history time: Lolth, acting as the goddess of destiny, see that she is destined to be the evil counter-part of her husband and simply acted as such. Her actions is very fitting for her portfolio. Destiny is chaotic, cruel and whimsical, uncaring and only favors those that survives. She's also the spider queen because she is a weaver of destiny and destiny traps all within it and none could escape, even herself.
Perhaps at a time Araushnee, as a sometimes annoyed wife, was drawn by destiny to examine a strange spider foreign to the realms they lived in, a spider that was perhaps an Oberyth or demon which bit and poisoned Araushnee against her husband and his children slowly transforming her into the monster that is Lolth today?
same! I could take or leave the forgotten realms for what it is, but it has plenty of interesting concepts that make for good jump-off points for dms and players alike.
I think two of the best examples of Lolth's cruelty and insanity: one, her desire for the complete destruction of house oblodra, a powerful house that brought not only might to menzoberranzan, but something of a tentative truce with a colony of illithid, all bc she feared their power as something she couldnt directly control. Second was the near destruction of ched nassad, which she revelled in despite it costing her many worshippers
ahhhhhh crap it was the later end books however yes this guy is on the money and i had forgotten until now about ched land , personally utterly destroying those illithods was the best thing for mezo mmmm yes i still remember reading and seeing all the faryfire lights @@kreedsutherland4207
New to D&D here but I've become interested in drow lore since BG3 was released on PS5. I had no idea what a drider is until I played the game, and did not quite catch the importance of driders until I began to read up on drow lore. So whenever Kar'niss approaches the party in the Shadow Lands, the game does a subtle nod to how terrifying driders are with how some of the other characters react to it. Fascinating work by Larian to seamlessly integrate proper lore into the game. Great video on Lolth as well......not much is said about Lolth in BG3 (and I play as a Lolth-sworn female drow) other than some dialogue options in-game. So its good to hear more about Lolth.
The drow are not unintelligent. They know all of this. The majority of Lolth's priesthood do not venerate, revere, or even like her. They follow Lolth for two reasons: fear and power. They are terrified of what she's capable of if they don't follow her, and joining her priesthood is not only non-optional for female nobles, but the quickest and surest way to personal power. What's interesting is that Drizzt Do'Urden is going to go to the Demonweb Pits when he dies. He can worship Mielikki all day long, for his entire life, but his soul belongs to Lolth. Part of her portfolio is Drow, and unless Drizzt can somehow stop being Drow (theoretically not impossible in the Forgotten Realms), or he sells his soul to the Nine Hells, he's going to face Lolth when he dies.
This as completely incorrect. Meilikki is the god of rangers, and rangers regardless of race go to her when they die. This is evidenced by the fact that lolth herself admitted to not having Zaknafein's soul, even though he had been sacraficed to lolth, in her city, and without worshipping another god. Just being born a specific race does not determine your afterlife in the forgotten realms.
@@jerancantor8772 You're always going to have inconsistencies and contradictions where so many creative opinions contribute to the universe, and what prevails is the body of established lore. So, no, it's not incorrect. Lolth holds the drow portfolio. Their souls belong to her. You can cite an author who happened to write a book for WOTC or some splat that contradicts those facts, but that doesn't hold water against the body of work that comprises 50 years of this game which states very clearly the nature of the Gods and the nature of the afterlife in the D&D universe.
@@samuelcooper3664 Eilistraee also has 'drow' as part of her portfolio, so yes, drow who follow Lady Silverhair go to her divine realm when they die. But that stopped for a while after she became a dead power post War of the Spider Queen, and then for some reason returned because of a McGuffin the lore nerds cooked up.
@@jupiterrising887 That nature being that in Faerun, souls go to the realm of the god they worshipped in life? That's been established canon for...oh I don't know. 30+ years?
You can really thank Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore for most of why she's got such deep lore about her, and anything at all about the rest of the Drow pantheon. They _did do_ the 'War of the Spider Queen' series under multiple authors, but it was hit or miss between books by the end. I'm really surprised you didn't (or maybe you did and I missed it) mention which sacrifices she favors most, her own clergy and servants. Juniors undermine Seniors, just like Sith Masters and Apprentices in Star Wars; both keeping everyone involved twisted, evil, and paranoid af, but also stagnating the growth of her religion by cutting out all the older and wiser members. There are a lot of cool deities in FR and in D&D, Lolth is just the most written about, and now WotC is focused far less on novels, so you can expect that not to change for quite awhile. Some other interesting deities you might look into, if you decide to lean into lore videos are: All the deities involved in the 'Time of Troubles' books, wherein multiple deities die, get resurrected, and mortals ascend to godhood. Its a *Great* look into how FR's deities work. Moander is/was a God of rot and decay that featured in a lot of early novels too, you should absolutely look into him when you get a chance (assuming you haven't already). Helm is a God of guardians, but his church went to Maztica (FR's Amazon) and did the whole conquistador forced-conversion/mass genocide thing with the people they found there, which _did not_ go over well when word got out. Karsus was a powerful Netherse wizard, and the last to cast a 10th level spell in FR. He tried to become a God, and things did not go as planned. His story is touched on in the Time of Troubles books, but also the last adventure path that moved the game from 3.5 to 4th ed.
The irony is that many Drow doesnt even like her, but are afraid of her instead. Some even realised what kind of deity their kind worships and try to get away. To pick some names: Drizzt Do'Urden, his father Zaknafein Do'Urden, Kimmuriel Oblodra and Jarlaxle Baenre. Of course they are Drow males and have the shorter end of the stick in Drow society. Most are afraid of leaving, because they either fear being pursued by their kin or the people of the world above. Many admire or envy Drizzt Do'Urden for getting away and thriving on the surface, having a good life.
I hate Drizzt. Angsty, edgy, emo boi Gary Stu of a character. I've never liked him, and I hate that the rise in popularity of my beloved drow was on his shoulders. Give me the good old demon spider goddess worshipping evil obsidian skinned nightmare elves! Way more interesting than Drizzt.
@@iDEATH Well in terms of combat ability he is an absolute beast, but it was his character development, which made him grow on me. He grew up in on of the most cruel societies of the Forgotten Realms and he still dared to ask questions of morality. I suspect he came out this way due to his father Zaknafein and his sister Vierna.
@@iDEATH I have a feeling you don't actually hate Drizzt. I think what you hate is the "Drizzt effect" and what it had on Drow in D&D. He stopped being the exception a long time ago, and suddenly a million Drizzt clones were running everywhere, as well as the writing being infected to turn what was a badass monster race of evil elves into this mushy waffle they're coming out with in D&D Next. That's the real problem. Drizzt, on his own, is an interesting and dynamic character. But it's what everyone else did that sucks.
When Queen of the Demon Web Puits dungeon was first released it was a great eye opener to all sorts of aspects to D&D (AD&D) not really used correctly (plane travel impact on character and spell restoration etc). Loved it.
Great Goddess, Mother of the Dark, grant me the blood of my enemies for drink and their living hearts for meat. Grant me the screams of their young for song, grant me the helplessness of their males for my satisfaction, grant me the wealth of their houses for my bed. By this unworthy sacrifice I honor you, Queen of Spiders, and beseech of you the strength to destroy my foes.
Actually you made her extreamly interesting to follow 😅 a pure evil character that rampages through the world on borrowed time until the chaotic dread he worships kills him off? Sounds like hell of a fun time to play 😁
I try not to look down upon the Drow too much for being caught up in Lolth’s webs. How many years do they spend getting indoctrinated by their families and their academies? And then how many years being required to indoctrinate in turn the next generation of their family / etc.? It sounds as though Drizzt only ever had a chance to be “good” because of some fluke predisposition from the genetics / soul he inherited from Zaknafein. Can Drizzt really take credit for being born with something different in his heart? Can Drizzt take credit for being born to Zaknafein (whose lifelong mistake of sticking around in Menzo’ he could learn from?). Can Drizzt take credit for being born male, which afforded him opportunities to avoid the complete indoctrination that his sister Vierna never could avoid? /
This is why I don't like that implication in the books. I think it's far more interesting to consider how and why a drow might be exposed to other races/cultures and ultimately become good. "Morality is inherited" is just such a weird take.
For real. And then you add the other bad take (or part of the same weird take) where the Drow became bad because of being constantly exposed to the faerzress in the Underdark. it's like... where's the room for free will? it's like "oh it's not their fault" for their society or for the individuals who are currently in it. I'm always underwhelmed by novels or fiction generally where the characters have been possessed or corrupted somehow and are no longer themselves. And R.A. Salvatore did a lot of that throughout his 30+ novel Drizzt series @@lauraw2526
I agree. There always should be trio of gods to choose from when it comes to drow. Lolth and Vhaeraun for ambitious women and men and Elistree for weakings.
BTW, Drizzt is most likely chosen of both Melikki and Lloth :) Why Lloth would favour him? Well he does bring impossible amounts of chaos into the Drow society and overturns all what was thought to be unchangeable. He also escapes almost all bad predicaments when it comes to Drow and even Lloth own Priesthood. I think Lloth both loves him and hates him, which is why she gives him her favour. - just a theory though :)
She doesn't hate him at all she loves him. Like you said he brings chaos and that makes her wet beyond belief especially when it comes to throwing the drow into a chaotic frenzy.
Historically matriarchies were destroyed by the fact wars were fought to extinctions leading their enemies to do the same to them and historically female rulers of patriarchal societies were more likely to start wars, only makes sense to put it to a horrible extreme to make an interesting fantasy faction.
There are dozens of very good reasons human beings have never formed a matriarchy. We've had queens, of course, but always only as a sub-optimal circumstance of succession laws, and even then that didn't change the family unit.
@@jupiterrising887 Matriarchal societies have existed, and still do to this very day. You've just never heard of them because none of them ever pass the grass hut stage of technology without first being absorbed into a patriarchal society.
I’m running Lolth Sworn…there is something beautiful about knowing that my service ultimately ends in failure…but the brief joy of pleasing my goddess?!! Unrelenting euphoria for that short time. Yeah…that is the only way I was able to make it work and even then it’s so hard!!! Like how can you be that chaotic lol.
Many characters in the D&D universe follow evil deities, but they only do so to secretly gain power themselves. Demogorgon's lieutenant Belaphoss the Mad was a very loyal servant, but constantly plotted to overthrow his master.
Very good analysis and lore discussion, really appretiate it. Though, i would completely agree with everything about this position against Lolth in a tabletop scenario, but i don't really see the point of it regarding to actual BG3, because i very much doubt the developers would really penalize you from the get go at character creation without at least a good compensation.
Nice summary of the lore, though you might have mentioned there are other exceptions, like drow cities ruled by mages and other things like that. Just for completeness. I'm an OG drow fan, since the first Fiend Folio. I remember reading that entry when I was ten or so and thinking they sounded so cool, but I also really like spiders. I love Lolth because I love those true and proper villains; unsympathetic, irredeemably evil, "just want to see the world burn" type baddies. Lolth is like that, I think, when you get right down it. I'll almost certainly try to play Lolth-sworn at some point, but maybe not my first playthrough.
Those are topics that I might cover in other videos. Not everyone is heavily steeped in the lore so one risks lore overload so this video sought to cut a balance.
I made a point about what i personally think of Lloth, but this topic overall kept me thinking. And i little bit compared the Dnd (specialy the Realmscape- the 'cosmic' bubble around the Aber Troil or Fearun basically) to Pathfinder, since pathfinder itself owes it's existence to the Failure of 4e, and people wanting that classic pre 4e dnd format and so both setting and system carries alots of paralels... One exception to these paralels however, how at least SOME evil gods in the Pathfinder universe can be considered 'beneficial.' Twisted, selfish or even sometimes harmful to the societes they pop up, at least you could argue most of the Evil gods in pathfinder universe beneficial on individual level. Their philosophies have merit and they're genuen about their own dogma. They 'use' what they're 'selling' so to speak. Realmscape gods on the other hand hypocrites that are there to just further their own agenda at the expense of their gullible worshippers. They benefit from their pawns but that's it. So it's little bit hard to create an evil god worshipper/cultist that is not either a complate idiot or a very misguided person. I'm sort of thinking ever since i watched your Shar video actualy. Despite what she is (a primordial being who just wants everything to return what it was) Shar uses dishonest ways, sometimes even inducing pain, loss and suffering in her followers' lives to prove her own points. Her 'comforting mother' persona, by her deeds nothing but a front. You wouldn't say the same for Urgathoa for example in pathfinder, who genuenly rebels at the cosmic predetermination and wants to decide her own fate and mortality and uses negative energy and undeath for this purposes... Not that there are no evil gods that are doing what they're doing for themselves in pathfinder, biggest of them all i can think Pathfinder Asmodeus itself, who argues the Freewill is flawed and purpose of all creation should be serving him. (and even then we could perhaps argue he genuenly believes this crooked logic himself, but at the very least, point is he is upfront about what he is about) I can't seem to think an Evil god of Realmscape that, although her ideology is still evil and probably would harm the collective, at least beneficial to indiviaul and at least honest as a deity. I would be very intrested to hear your ideas about this Spell&Shield, and if you could argue there is such evil deity in realmscape that worshipping her is not... Well... plain stupid. Also i have to say one thing as someone who follows you some time now... Your voice... it's pretty wizard. Genuenly...
That was an awesome overview, great work! SPOILERS! Since at least one drider was datamined, do you think Llolth will play a notable part in the story? I have a feeling it's just some flavor content for the Underdark, but who knows really.
Having run the pre release, the Llolth background plays heavily, at least in the first act that is available. From spider dialogue, to recruitment, to unusual allies, that curse my inevitable but predictable betrayal! MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I've played a couple of Drow in BG3 and even my "evil" Drow is a Seldarine Drow. I just can't do a Lolth-sworn Drow, I hate that crazy b!#*h Spider Queen, Death to Lolth!
Not sure about Lolth but playing evil character with defined motivations, it would depend on how good BG3 is written. I've played BG1 & 2 countless times, but only after playing evil character for the first time I realized how great writing actually is, there was always a dialogue line that fits the motivations of those characters perfectly and for me it was most memorable playtrough of any games
The War of the Spider Queen series is one of the best glimpses into Drow society and also the machinations of Lolth. It's six books long, each written by a different author (including the incredible Paul S. Kemp) and all overseen by R.A. Salvatore. The bizarre metamorphosis Lolth undergoes and the wild plots she sets into action do a fantastic job of highlighting her wickedness, and also the strange alien nature of her very being compared to other deities who have not delved so deeply into chaos.
My conclusion was similar to yours, which is why I ended up picking a Seldarine Drow. Lloth Drow are interesting to read about, but the sycophantic worship your character would be expected to engage in is pretty off-putting to me.
Wonderful analysis, well done. Personally I find the least believable aspect of Llolth-sworn drow society is that it is stable to any degree whatsoever. Societies are held together beyond small groups by organizing and forming structures - an inherently lawful activity. A chaotic society might hold together beyond small groups if they are united in general morality - a willingness to look out for one another that would generally be defined as good. However both of these things are anathema to the cult of Llolth. It is therefore my assumption that Menzoberanzan would resemble little better than a collection of warring gangs all vying for power in its various forms. Any organized hierarchy would never last long as the inherent chaos and evil of every member of the society would tear it down; either directly or indirectly via seeking their own advancement over the best interests of said hierarchy.
To be fair that is kind of the Drow's issue. They are constantly at odds with one another - warring and scheming. Its that ability to unite that prevents them from becoming a legit threat to conquer the world.
I was waiting for this! You say bad and evil, I say the only God worthy of devotion! Also, playing a Lolth-Sworn Drow is kind of a dream come true moment for me as I live in a country that playing DnD wasn't a thing until I got my hands on Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate. So, my experience with DnD always came trough the limitations of video games, and playing evil characters have always been lackluster and unsatisfying experiences. With the exception of Obsidian's Tyranny. BG3 having backed devotion to Lolth into a subrace of Drow with impact on story has me excited beyond reason.
Im doing a male drow character in DnD right now who is too afraid of the potential consequences of not worshiping lolth to forsake her, despite making his way to the surface. He only hopes to avoid her gaze by remaining unimportant. This video was helpful.
There's a draw to Lolth for many who share her desire for wonton murder and deceit, for those who hold no illusions of lasting favor, and understand that everything eventually falls to decay and death. Evil characters who are most honest to themselves and aren't motivated by arrogance and station (which runs counter to most known Drow culture), who live more in the moment, would follow Lolth and truly understand what it means to do so. To hold the reigns of power to ingratiate themselves in the present, but be all too willing to give them up as they watch the world burn around them. Not for praise, not for clout, not for preservation; just to witness things come crashing down and to validate their own nihilism. Almost all Drow who worship Lolth don't do so for favor, they do so out of fear, to just be able to survive another day. A true devout of Lolth worships her because they want to suck up all the sickly pleasures they can before their cord is snapped, and preferably by harming and abusing as many as possible in doing so. Those are usually the Matron Mothers.
lolth sworn drow could work as the Dark urge though. Maybe something happened with that that let you get away from the underdark. And since you have almost no memories save the urge to maim and kill you could maybe use that as an excuse to try to resist and with meeting new party members and friends change to a good character.
Lolth-Sworn cleric (of Lolth, duh) is literally the first thing I am going to play once the game releases. Love the cleric, love drow and I really love the flavour. Though she is going to be realistically and smart evil, not just a chaotic murderhobo. Still contemplating whether I should sacrifice that filthy vampire spawn though...
@@TARMHeLL Eh, personally I don't really have a problem with him. My character might tho due to her religious and cultural bias. There are actually many people who dislike him.
As an AD&D veteran, my first campaign incorporated the Against the Giants series until the Queen of the Demonweb Pits, so I know that "lady" quite well. Still better than Zuggtmoy, though. :-)
Great Video as always. Thx. I was actually surprised that this was an option in BG3(Lolth or Seledine) and curius to see how this ties into the story. Drow as an actual race to choose and not as a Sub-race of Elves....Could play a larger part in things somehow. Guess I will have to go and blow the dust off books 1-6 in the Drizzt series...Still finishing-up "The Heroes" from Abercrombie:) . Peace
I played several playthrough and my All-evil female drow Loth playthrough was the most fun in terms of people's reaction tbh. its not what i would usually play as I'm more of a Neutral player but honestly everyone should try female drow evil playthrough it's hillarious
Honestly, it's actually refreshing to have some actual evil characters instead of all the moral grey that I run into nowadays. Same people who hate the classic alignment system because "everybody is there own hero" in their heads. Yeah no. Some people do evil to be evil and to get ahead, and if it screws you over EVEN BETTER! It's nice to have a classic evil character to play.
Yeah you are right, but I don't see how a lolth drow would be working with other species. I don't see it. But I will probably play a drow, but a seldarine drow because I think this makes more sense for the game.
@@hector-nu6gl well if you don't mind spoilers, I'll tell u what I've done so far in service of Lolth :) Found the yellow arrogant toad in the aireal trap and killed her to save the teiflings. Sided with the teiflings in the uprising against the druids. Sided with Minerva to let the goblins in. Lied to Halpin about saving the Grove. Got the absolutes blessing to use sweet gear. Killed gut and the chief to hand full power to Minerva. Wiped out the tie flings with Minerva. Wiped out Minerva and the goblins for betraying faith in lolth. Wiped out halsin the wizard and the warlock when they betrayed me. Took out shadow heart for the artifact. Its been a crazy whirlwind of a play thru :) "I like feeling E V I L!" MUHAHAHAHAHA Oh, and of course saved all the spiders!
you didnt mention those so called favored handmaidens of loth on death are rewarded with a new form of the Yochlols. How she learned the process from Ghaunadaur, also her second attempt she made a alliance with Ghaunadaur.
@@spellandshield I think exhaustively spelling it out for the non-DnD crowd is EXACTLY what you need/needed to do. The rest of us who have read the books or heard the details through the years can see this and extrapolate based on reference alone. The rest? They need those gory and extensive details. And better yet, contrast to Shar and to the Seldarine Drow so that the choice in the character creator is explained for what it really is. Otherwise just saying "she may even be more evil than like, Shar, I swear" isn't gonna deliver the point imo. I think the one interesting angle here is the Absolute, which can steal your Lolth-sworn Drow into their service and ironically making the world a better place.
Insanity would be rejecting the cursed blessings of the Spider-Mommy. Know your love will be unrequited and that your doom will be her design and embrace it! To not give Spider-Mommy your life, heart, and soul is to blaspheme against her and if she rewards your faithful service with torment and death then revel in it for your demise is her joy-if only for a briefest of instants until you are inevitably forgotten!
Hmm... I cannot agree with a lot of this. Look at how she rules the Drow and the rules she gives them. Look at the rigid hierarchy of their society. She does not rule them chaotically and only allows chaos to a certain extent. Lolth is cruel but also there is a method and I believe she is masquerading as a chaos goddess. Lolth brings more order to her worshipers than most non-chaotic entities. She uses chaos as a forge. She has been able to overcome her exile being this cunning.
"Why you shouldn't worship Lolth!" - said people often picking warlocks and travelling alongside Shar cleric, supersoldier in service of Zariel, another warlock, a vampire, a literal Shahed-belt wizard going to make Aloha Snackbar on a wannabe illitid god, a githyanki... I mean, not gonna lie, what's one more excess to add to the clusterfuck? :)
I accidentally took a Lolth-sworn drow and down the road I renounced her ways, now I am a drow in the path of redemption, I even got one of my eyes blue again as I vowed against the spider queen.
As someone who's been playing DnD since the 70s I don't disagree with anything you've presented. HOWEVER, I really want to try one for another play-through, no TT campaign or video game (that I've had a chance to play) has ever given me the opportunity to follow Lolth--well EQ1 made all dark elves drow by default but all that meant was running away from npcs that would kill on sight. I do remember encountering some hardcore drow role players in the early days, but even then the game mechanics made it pretty easy to pull it off. LOL we used to even speak the language to each other, some of those people were so impressive, I wonder where they are now, I'd love to game with them again. But I'm dying to see what the game throws in my way, I justify any acts of mercy as my arrogance in thinking my tadpole might either make me powerful enough to challenge any wrath from Lolth and that she'll see my value and bring me into her inner circle OR I'm delusional into thinking it's outright "protecting" me in a way that I can forge my own path instead of fully carrying out Lolth's will. I haven't decided yet, I'm still going through my initial run-through on a good character but I'm really curious how Larian would play this out--otherwise they wouldn't make it an option.
R.A. Salvatore and Ed Greenwood really helped build the world of Faerun for me. When I saw Elminster and Drizzt in Balder’s Gate 1, I had a fangasm. I was reading Forgotten Realms books before I could even find others my age in my small town to play the newly released 3e D&D with me. Someone here said the perception of the drow is based off of secondhand information and there isn’t much lore about Lolth. To them, I say, you obviously have never read R.A. Salvatore or Paul Kemp.
I love Lolth!!! I played through one game of early access as a Lolth Cleric and was awesome! I play DnD in the Forgotten Realms setting and Lolth is my fav diety by far! If you are into reading fantasy and enjoyed the Drizzt books, The Icewind Dale series, Dark Elf series, Legacy of the Drow series, etc (if you have not read them i would highly suggest them) then you should read The War of the Spider Queen series and Lisa Smedman's The Lady Penitent series. For the glory of Lolth!!!
once Corellon was a shapeshifter par non, and so were the elves. But Araushnee tricked the elves in giving up that power, and because Corellon is the quintessential elf he lost that power too, foreever locking him in one form. Corellon blamed this "imprissonment" into one form on the elves and banished them from Arvandor.
For a better perspective on Drow society the series “War of the Spider Queen” is a good read. The book “Hero”, Loth is actually in the book and speaks directly to Drizzt. And finally the last 6 books by R.A. Salvatore. Loth is more of a cancer to the Drow than a goddess and in truth it took years and years for her to fully corrupt the Drow.
I could see not wanting to play Lolth-Sworn on the FIRST playthrough, but, it's an RPG...sometimes it's fun to be evil. Picking Shadowheart as your character in the final release - a Shar worshiper - does not seem much better, even though it's not the first time a Baldur's Gate game has given you the choice to have a Shar faithful in your party.
Still, Shadowheart is easy to work with. She isn´t a "kick those puppies" type like Astarion. In fact, it has been hinted SH may not be an actual Shar priestess at all.
Drow survive despite lolth, not due. Which is insane
They don't need her, but she sure as hell needs them because her power will go down if she loses followers.
Yeah, Lolth really is a difficult sell for me. They have deliberately created her to be both beautiful and repulsive at the same time but really, regardless of that, when you look at her actions, you need to be insane to voluntarily worship her. Great video!
Good thing Drizzt got the heck out of there. 👀
I personally play male characters and usually some form of magic caster, so her 'men are slaves' and 'oh look a sorcerer, imma turn him into a drider' policies are a problem from a roleplaying perspective. Especially when the campaign is happening outside of Underdark - which it usually is.
I mean, if you're on the surface, as a drow guy, somehow you don't get racismed into an early grave and manage to make a living there... There's literally no reason not to change faith.
Literally any deity other than Lolth is just straight up better. Because no other god will punish you for becoming more powerful via a barrage of increasingly more difficult tasks, just so she can watch you fail eventually and broadcast your transformation into a spider boy to all her priestesses, to reinforce their faith in the matriarchy of the drow.
From the point of view of D&D lore (which is not supposed to have the Lolth drow as playable characters, but only as villains), the Lolth mythology is not the truth, but it's what is believed by people to whom the drow are villains, and so the drow's main goddess must of course be a ridiculously over-the-top embodiment of insanity and evil.
I very much doubt that the drow believe the same myths about Lolth (people never see themselves, or their own gods, as evil), but unfortunately, a drow view of Lolth isn't something that is explored in D&D lore, since the drow are villains and the players are not supposed to see anything from their point of view, ever.
In other words, anything that is ever said about Lolth in D&D lore can be viewed as one-sided Seldarine propaganda. If one wants to play as drow (going against the design of the game and the setting), then one must fill in the gaps as to how the "other side" may see this deity differently.
It would be interesting to play a character who did not become Lolth-sworn voluntarily.
@@alexeyvlasenko6622 Isn't the distinction here that Seladrine has Good alignments, meaning that they actually are good vs Lolths evil alignments, it's not really propaganda if the cosmic space you come from is a plane of good
Lolth is fascinating. Cruel, self-serving and chaotic to the extreme, but that is what makes her much more complex that other gods. Lloth, due to her inherent unpredictability, is capable of causing more than pure evil while still remaining totally evil herself. Her ways of spreading chaos are varried and can be both subtle, and direct. The above-mentioned Drizzt is theorized to be one of her favorite champions despite his overt hatred of her. Lloth seems to enjoy the walking paradox that he is. Drizzt does his best to do good and to show everyone that drow can be good. He helped many and made numerous friends, but wherever he goes trouble soon follows. About half the time it has something to do with his kin from Menzoberanzzan, who go to extreme length to kill him for his heresy and in other times it's volcano eruptions, large-scale orc invasions, sentient and malicious artifacts attempting to take over. Chaos seems to follow him everywhere.
He is also incredibly hard to kill. Drizzt survived being trapped in Abyss, he fought a Balor in single combat several times and won, he has fought and killed the majority of renowned duelists from his own home city, broke free and destroyed a Mind Flayer enclave and he also defeated Demogorgon, although with some help. He also had a dubious honor of receiving a smooch from the goddess herself. With the amount of trouble Drizzt been through he should have been dead long before he made it to the surface. One can see why Lloth priesthood in hushed whispers speak of him being one of Lloth's most favoured.
It seems that to Lloth chaos matters more than evil. One can only wonder just how many Lloth's secret favoured there are in the world.
I suppose trying to do good in a society full of evil creates far more chaos in that society than going with the evil flow, same for the reverse. That's interesting to think she'd appreciate those who scorn her because they're still creating chaos in the world.
cruel, self-serving and chaotic, yeah, sure, such a complex character...
@@efaristi9737 What complexity you expect from a character you never actually see? All gods are like that, not just her.
@@BIGESTblade cruel, self-serving and chaotic? no sorry, not all gods are like that, fortunately XD
Tricksters gods are actually usually complex and unpredicatable characters XD. Sure, Lolth is very chaotic and hard to predict but the fact that whatever she do is to benefit herself and will never do anything selfless or good doesn't really make her a complex character. You might not know what her plot is about but you can be sure it's not good for anyone beside the Spider-Queen.
@@efaristi9737 Missing the point entirely.
My own idea is Lloth is simply a "crazy ex", her biggest agenda to me, is causing as much pain as possible to Corellon. and because he loves all elves, specialy drow who he once created in the image he loved most (lloth herself) her strategy is to turn drow society into inherently sick and and horrible to live place so they themselves can suffer, and instill hatred that all their woes were because other elven bloodlines, so they would go out of their way to harm and bring suffering on them as well. i think the fact that she still exist is a testemant that corellon still harbors some miniscule amount of love her. and her continued existence is corellon's biggest mistake. and she knows it.
Hot take- Corelllon is a terrible deity. 1. Gets cucked by an ugly ass orc God.
2. Punishes his lieutenant for a small fuck up, resulting in him becoming one of the biggest threats to the elves and spawning the fey'ri.
3. Spares a lower tier elf God who actually did betray him.
4. Wants his race to return to being formless do nothings and will dunk them back in the mortal place over and over again, risking them to fall to the lower planes or just switching worship to some other God.
5. Terrible taste in women.
Also lolth is the reason elves have their shape in the first place, since she encouraged them to keep one shape so they could actually get shit done.
@@yvesorzel4518 uh when did Corellon get cucked by an ugly ass orc god?
2 what lieutnant?
3 well, he did also spared Gruumsh, a mortal ennemy because he was disarmed and wounded so, that might be a habit of his XD
4 i think that depend on the edition.
5 Do you think Angharradh is also a poor choice?
I-can-fix-her. Lol.
@@alexeyvlasenko6622 Yes, that's pretty much the point of view of the Drows about the Seldarine: They were betrayed and cast out by the surfaces elves and their weak gods. their society is so twisted that they don't see Lolth and what they do as really evil since they don't have any alternatives to take example from. they have no contacts with more benevolents species and everything in the Underdark is trying to kill you so it pretty much confort them in their belief that to survive in a harsh world, you have to be harsher.
Praise the Spider Queen!
Yes Praise the Spider Queen
You still praise the spider bitch?! Scoffs in Cleric of Bahamut Drow!
May the Lizard Queen or the Bird Queen take her!
PRAISE JOKO!!!!!
Death to Lolth!
I do believe there's one thing Lolth loves: Spiders. I mean, maybe it's because it's her religious symbol, but in her clergy it is punishible by death to harm a spider. Also she did choose the form of a spider before becoming a deity and aquiring the portfolio of spiders, so at the very least she must like the aesthetic of them.
She was banished into the abyss along with her children and cursed with the appearance of a spider demon. It was here that Araushnee took the name Lolth and made her home in the 66th layer of the abyss. She eventually ran into a demon prince called Zanassu who had dominion over spiders at the time. Due to her new appearance Lolth decided it was only right that she would have that dominion for herself, so she tricked the deity Selvetarm into destroying the demon prince - and soon after she regained her divinity which she used to turn her layer of the abyss into the Demonweb Pits, a massive spider web to match her new persona. Lolth also has complete control over all spiders and can use them to spy for her which is why killing a spider is instant death for a Drow.
I almost were surprised when playing bg3 that there is no punishment for attacking phase spiders, or at least an alternative method of exploring that cave and a Lolth-sworn.
Want to know how evil Lolth is, consider what she did to her Grandson. (This is 2nd and 3rd edition lore not sure he made it to fifth may have been killed off) The Champion of Lolth. First she tricked him into defeating and absorbing the strength and powers of a Spider Demon. Then she broke his will and mind making him into a puppet, literally of her will. He is incapable of any thoughts of his own, his every moment, is dedicated to her will, not because he wants to be that way but because he has been utterly broken.
Her Grandson
I'm not particularly impressed.
There are like a dozen books that claim to be written by survivors of real-life satan1c cults. You can decide for yourself if you believe them to be genuine, but they're full of anecdotes that are far more horrifying than what any D&D fiction writer can come up with. For example (only read on if you're okay with reading awful and horrific and mind-scarring stories):
In one book I've read, a woman claimed that when she was a child, she was taught that when her handler said "kill this other child or we'll torture it to death in front of your eyes", the handler meant it. If she refused, the other child really would be tortured to death in front of her eyes if she refused. After refusing once and being forced to watch, she learned to obey.
Two decades later, said woman had her own child and she did something that her handler didn't like. So her handler said "kill your own child or we'll torture it to death in front of you." So she did, knowing that if she refused, her child would literally be tortured to death in front of her.
Then her handler gave her another look-alike child and told her to pretend that it was hers, to keep up appearances for the outside world. So then she had to pretend that another child, kidnapped from God knows where, was actually her child, after she was forced to kill her own. And this book claims that this happened in real life.
-----
Or in another book, a rich satan1st wanted to show off to his buddies and please, well, the being he worshipped. So he found a miserable mother and her child who were living on the street. He had a wheelchair made for her, because she couldn't walk properly. He gave her a place to stay. The kid got new clothes. The mother and child were besides themselves with joy.
Then he invited her to a meal with a couple of his friends. She accepted and his butler helped her get seated on the table. She asked where her child was, and was told he would be with her momentarily. While the meal was being prepared, she talked to her benefactor's friends. They were very polite and obviously rich, but there seemed to be some in-joke between them that she didn't understand. She somehow felt uncomfortable, even though these people had saved her from the street. Eventually dinner was about to be served, she asked again where her child was and was again told he'd be there very soon. She then definitely felt that something was wrong, but where else could she go? She ate dinner with the group.
After the meal it was revealed that her child had been the meat served in the main course. The satan1sts enjoyed watching her lose her mind at the realization that she'd eaten her own child. Then they killed her.
And again, this is written up in a book and the author claimed this really happened, in our world.
My favorite Goddess is Eilistraee, it's a shame Wizards of the Coast has seemed to have abandoned her.
But you can play as a cleric of Elistraee in Baldur's Gate III.
@@jeremybosworth2275 I more so give credit to Larian Studios for that.
@@thebeanz7838 Fair enough. IMO, WotC has been changing established lore to fit a narrative.
@@jeremybosworth2275 that’s exactly what they’ve been and continue to do
Well, she is the drow goddess of exhibitionism. No way the WotC of today would know what to do with her.
alternative history time: Lolth, acting as the goddess of destiny, see that she is destined to be the evil counter-part of her husband and simply acted as such. Her actions is very fitting for her portfolio. Destiny is chaotic, cruel and whimsical, uncaring and only favors those that survives. She's also the spider queen because she is a weaver of destiny and destiny traps all within it and none could escape, even herself.
Right? I'm glad I'm not the only one with similar notions! I am vindicated!
Interesting idea ...
Interesting. My friend have you perhaps learned about the Raven Queen?
Destiny is not chaotic. Chance is chaotic. Those are the two forces that battle since the origins of sentience
Perhaps at a time Araushnee, as a sometimes annoyed wife, was drawn by destiny to examine a strange spider foreign to the realms they lived in, a spider that was perhaps an Oberyth or demon which bit and poisoned Araushnee against her husband and his children slowly transforming her into the monster that is Lolth today?
love the drow pantheon, particularly Llolth and Eilistraee, such interesting deities, I have played priestesses of both over the years.
Wizards of The Coast have done everything in their power to make the lore surrounding Lolth and the Drow less compelling
@@thomasrose2149 yeah I'm not a fan of the latest developments...
same! I could take or leave the forgotten realms for what it is, but it has plenty of interesting concepts that make for good jump-off points for dms and players alike.
I think two of the best examples of Lolth's cruelty and insanity: one, her desire for the complete destruction of house oblodra, a powerful house that brought not only might to menzoberranzan, but something of a tentative truce with a colony of illithid, all bc she feared their power as something she couldnt directly control. Second was the near destruction of ched nassad, which she revelled in despite it costing her many worshippers
What book was that where Ched Nassad was destroyed? I read it when i was a kid but cannot remember.
ahhhhhh crap it was the later end books however yes this guy is on the money and i had forgotten until now about ched land , personally utterly destroying those illithods was the best thing for mezo mmmm yes i still remember reading and seeing all the faryfire lights @@kreedsutherland4207
New to D&D here but I've become interested in drow lore since BG3 was released on PS5. I had no idea what a drider is until I played the game, and did not quite catch the importance of driders until I began to read up on drow lore. So whenever Kar'niss approaches the party in the Shadow Lands, the game does a subtle nod to how terrifying driders are with how some of the other characters react to it. Fascinating work by Larian to seamlessly integrate proper lore into the game. Great video on Lolth as well......not much is said about Lolth in BG3 (and I play as a Lolth-sworn female drow) other than some dialogue options in-game. So its good to hear more about Lolth.
The drow are not unintelligent. They know all of this. The majority of Lolth's priesthood do not venerate, revere, or even like her. They follow Lolth for two reasons: fear and power. They are terrified of what she's capable of if they don't follow her, and joining her priesthood is not only non-optional for female nobles, but the quickest and surest way to personal power. What's interesting is that Drizzt Do'Urden is going to go to the Demonweb Pits when he dies. He can worship Mielikki all day long, for his entire life, but his soul belongs to Lolth. Part of her portfolio is Drow, and unless Drizzt can somehow stop being Drow (theoretically not impossible in the Forgotten Realms), or he sells his soul to the Nine Hells, he's going to face Lolth when he dies.
This as completely incorrect. Meilikki is the god of rangers, and rangers regardless of race go to her when they die. This is evidenced by the fact that lolth herself admitted to not having Zaknafein's soul, even though he had been sacraficed to lolth, in her city, and without worshipping another god. Just being born a specific race does not determine your afterlife in the forgotten realms.
@@jerancantor8772 You're always going to have inconsistencies and contradictions where so many creative opinions contribute to the universe, and what prevails is the body of established lore. So, no, it's not incorrect. Lolth holds the drow portfolio. Their souls belong to her. You can cite an author who happened to write a book for WOTC or some splat that contradicts those facts, but that doesn't hold water against the body of work that comprises 50 years of this game which states very clearly the nature of the Gods and the nature of the afterlife in the D&D universe.
Don't Drow who follow Eilistraee get claimed by her instead of Lolth?
@@samuelcooper3664 Eilistraee also has 'drow' as part of her portfolio, so yes, drow who follow Lady Silverhair go to her divine realm when they die. But that stopped for a while after she became a dead power post War of the Spider Queen, and then for some reason returned because of a McGuffin the lore nerds cooked up.
@@jupiterrising887 That nature being that in Faerun, souls go to the realm of the god they worshipped in life? That's been established canon for...oh I don't know. 30+ years?
You can really thank Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore for most of why she's got such deep lore about her, and anything at all about the rest of the Drow pantheon. They _did do_ the 'War of the Spider Queen' series under multiple authors, but it was hit or miss between books by the end. I'm really surprised you didn't (or maybe you did and I missed it) mention which sacrifices she favors most, her own clergy and servants. Juniors undermine Seniors, just like Sith Masters and Apprentices in Star Wars; both keeping everyone involved twisted, evil, and paranoid af, but also stagnating the growth of her religion by cutting out all the older and wiser members.
There are a lot of cool deities in FR and in D&D, Lolth is just the most written about, and now WotC is focused far less on novels, so you can expect that not to change for quite awhile. Some other interesting deities you might look into, if you decide to lean into lore videos are:
All the deities involved in the 'Time of Troubles' books, wherein multiple deities die, get resurrected, and mortals ascend to godhood. Its a *Great* look into how FR's deities work.
Moander is/was a God of rot and decay that featured in a lot of early novels too, you should absolutely look into him when you get a chance (assuming you haven't already).
Helm is a God of guardians, but his church went to Maztica (FR's Amazon) and did the whole conquistador forced-conversion/mass genocide thing with the people they found there, which _did not_ go over well when word got out.
Karsus was a powerful Netherse wizard, and the last to cast a 10th level spell in FR. He tried to become a God, and things did not go as planned. His story is touched on in the Time of Troubles books, but also the last adventure path that moved the game from 3.5 to 4th ed.
Lolth lore is actually much older than that but they rewrote it for the Faerun world setting.
The irony is that many Drow doesnt even like her, but are afraid of her instead. Some even realised what kind of deity their kind worships and try to get away. To pick some names: Drizzt Do'Urden, his father Zaknafein Do'Urden, Kimmuriel Oblodra and Jarlaxle Baenre. Of course they are Drow males and have the shorter end of the stick in Drow society. Most are afraid of leaving, because they either fear being pursued by their kin or the people of the world above. Many admire or envy Drizzt Do'Urden for getting away and thriving on the surface, having a good life.
She's a tyrant Goddess. She rules through fear and power. Not respect and love.
I hate Drizzt. Angsty, edgy, emo boi Gary Stu of a character. I've never liked him, and I hate that the rise in popularity of my beloved drow was on his shoulders. Give me the good old demon spider goddess worshipping evil obsidian skinned nightmare elves! Way more interesting than Drizzt.
@@iDEATH Well in terms of combat ability he is an absolute beast, but it was his character development, which made him grow on me. He grew up in on of the most cruel societies of the Forgotten Realms and he still dared to ask questions of morality. I suspect he came out this way due to his father Zaknafein and his sister Vierna.
There is also a notable female drow that you should add to your list: Liriel Baenre. Check out Elaine Cunningham's drow trilogy.
@@iDEATH I have a feeling you don't actually hate Drizzt. I think what you hate is the "Drizzt effect" and what it had on Drow in D&D. He stopped being the exception a long time ago, and suddenly a million Drizzt clones were running everywhere, as well as the writing being infected to turn what was a badass monster race of evil elves into this mushy waffle they're coming out with in D&D Next. That's the real problem. Drizzt, on his own, is an interesting and dynamic character. But it's what everyone else did that sucks.
When Queen of the Demon Web Puits dungeon was first released it was a great eye opener to all sorts of aspects to D&D (AD&D) not really used correctly (plane travel impact on character and spell restoration etc). Loved it.
Lolth is the one true goddess!
Great Goddess, Mother of the Dark, grant me the blood of my enemies for drink and their living hearts for meat. Grant me the screams of their young for song, grant me the helplessness of their males for my satisfaction, grant me the wealth of their houses for my bed. By this unworthy sacrifice I honor you, Queen of Spiders, and beseech of you the strength to destroy my foes.
Yup, that sums up the problem.
Oh, and can I have a bike? Thanks.
Actually you made her extreamly interesting to follow 😅 a pure evil character that rampages through the world on borrowed time until the chaotic dread he worships kills him off? Sounds like hell of a fun time to play 😁
I try not to look down upon the Drow too much for being caught up in Lolth’s webs.
How many years do they spend getting indoctrinated by their families and their academies? And then how many years being required to indoctrinate in turn the next generation of their family / etc.?
It sounds as though Drizzt only ever had a chance to be “good” because of some fluke predisposition from the genetics / soul he inherited from Zaknafein. Can Drizzt really take credit for being born with something different in his heart? Can Drizzt take credit for being born to Zaknafein (whose lifelong mistake of sticking around in Menzo’ he could learn from?). Can Drizzt take credit for being born male, which afforded him opportunities to avoid the complete indoctrination that his sister Vierna never could avoid? /
ahh the good old "Is it better to be born good, or overcome an evil nature through effort"
This is why I don't like that implication in the books. I think it's far more interesting to consider how and why a drow might be exposed to other races/cultures and ultimately become good. "Morality is inherited" is just such a weird take.
For real. And then you add the other bad take (or part of the same weird take) where the Drow became bad because of being constantly exposed to the faerzress in the Underdark. it's like... where's the room for free will? it's like "oh it's not their fault" for their society or for the individuals who are currently in it. I'm always underwhelmed by novels or fiction generally where the characters have been possessed or corrupted somehow and are no longer themselves. And R.A. Salvatore did a lot of that throughout his 30+ novel Drizzt series @@lauraw2526
A shame they didn't choose Vhaeraun as a possible choice of worship for the players.
I agree. There always should be trio of gods to choose from when it comes to drow. Lolth and Vhaeraun for ambitious women and men and Elistree for weakings.
Why you shouldn't worship Lolth. Reason 1: she's a spider. Need I say more?
She can turn into the hottest drow ever.
That implies 8 thighs. ALL HAIL THE SPIDER QUEEN
@@Not_QwakeHAIL!
@@Not_QwakeHAIL!
BTW, Drizzt is most likely chosen of both Melikki and Lloth :) Why Lloth would favour him? Well he does bring impossible amounts of chaos into the Drow society and overturns all what was thought to be unchangeable. He also escapes almost all bad predicaments when it comes to Drow and even Lloth own Priesthood. I think Lloth both loves him and hates him, which is why she gives him her favour. - just a theory though :)
She doesn't hate him at all she loves him. Like you said he brings chaos and that makes her wet beyond belief especially when it comes to throwing the drow into a chaotic frenzy.
Drizzt your propaganda will cease, FOR THE SPIDER QUEEN, ALL HAIL LOLTH!
I kinda like how in most media a matriarchal society is portrayed as a utopia. While for drow its a horrific place to live. Neat little inverse
Historically matriarchies were destroyed by the fact wars were fought to extinctions leading their enemies to do the same to them and historically female rulers of patriarchal societies were more likely to start wars, only makes sense to put it to a horrible extreme to make an interesting fantasy faction.
Pretty much exactly like real spiders
There are dozens of very good reasons human beings have never formed a matriarchy. We've had queens, of course, but always only as a sub-optimal circumstance of succession laws, and even then that didn't change the family unit.
@@jupiterrising887 Matriarchal societies have existed, and still do to this very day. You've just never heard of them because none of them ever pass the grass hut stage of technology without first being absorbed into a patriarchal society.
@@allamericanslacker2378 Ah, I stand corrected. They definitely sound like a sub-optimal society.
This video is Drizzt propaganda
I’m running Lolth Sworn…there is something beautiful about knowing that my service ultimately ends in failure…but the brief joy of pleasing my goddess?!! Unrelenting euphoria for that short time.
Yeah…that is the only way I was able to make it work and even then it’s so hard!!! Like how can you be that chaotic lol.
Many characters in the D&D universe follow evil deities, but they only do so to secretly gain power themselves. Demogorgon's lieutenant Belaphoss the Mad was a very loyal servant, but constantly plotted to overthrow his master.
Very good analysis and lore discussion, really appretiate it. Though, i would completely agree with everything about this position against Lolth in a tabletop scenario, but i don't really see the point of it regarding to actual BG3, because i very much doubt the developers would really penalize you from the get go at character creation without at least a good compensation.
I dunno, you just made her sound cool as hell to me.
Nice summary of the lore, though you might have mentioned there are other exceptions, like drow cities ruled by mages and other things like that. Just for completeness. I'm an OG drow fan, since the first Fiend Folio. I remember reading that entry when I was ten or so and thinking they sounded so cool, but I also really like spiders. I love Lolth because I love those true and proper villains; unsympathetic, irredeemably evil, "just want to see the world burn" type baddies. Lolth is like that, I think, when you get right down it. I'll almost certainly try to play Lolth-sworn at some point, but maybe not my first playthrough.
Those are topics that I might cover in other videos. Not everyone is heavily steeped in the lore so one risks lore overload so this video sought to cut a balance.
I made a point about what i personally think of Lloth, but this topic overall kept me thinking. And i little bit compared the Dnd (specialy the Realmscape- the 'cosmic' bubble around the Aber Troil or Fearun basically) to Pathfinder, since pathfinder itself owes it's existence to the Failure of 4e, and people wanting that classic pre 4e dnd format and so both setting and system carries alots of paralels... One exception to these paralels however, how at least SOME evil gods in the Pathfinder universe can be considered 'beneficial.' Twisted, selfish or even sometimes harmful to the societes they pop up, at least you could argue most of the Evil gods in pathfinder universe beneficial on individual level. Their philosophies have merit and they're genuen about their own dogma. They 'use' what they're 'selling' so to speak.
Realmscape gods on the other hand hypocrites that are there to just further their own agenda at the expense of their gullible worshippers. They benefit from their pawns but that's it. So it's little bit hard to create an evil god worshipper/cultist that is not either a complate idiot or a very misguided person.
I'm sort of thinking ever since i watched your Shar video actualy. Despite what she is (a primordial being who just wants everything to return what it was) Shar uses dishonest ways, sometimes even inducing pain, loss and suffering in her followers' lives to prove her own points. Her 'comforting mother' persona, by her deeds nothing but a front. You wouldn't say the same for Urgathoa for example in pathfinder, who genuenly rebels at the cosmic predetermination and wants to decide her own fate and mortality and uses negative energy and undeath for this purposes...
Not that there are no evil gods that are doing what they're doing for themselves in pathfinder, biggest of them all i can think Pathfinder Asmodeus itself, who argues the Freewill is flawed and purpose of all creation should be serving him. (and even then we could perhaps argue he genuenly believes this crooked logic himself, but at the very least, point is he is upfront about what he is about)
I can't seem to think an Evil god of Realmscape that, although her ideology is still evil and probably would harm the collective, at least beneficial to indiviaul and at least honest as a deity.
I would be very intrested to hear your ideas about this Spell&Shield, and if you could argue there is such evil deity in realmscape that worshipping her is not... Well... plain stupid.
Also i have to say one thing as someone who follows you some time now... Your voice... it's pretty wizard. Genuenly...
That was an awesome overview, great work!
SPOILERS!
Since at least one drider was datamined, do you think Llolth will play a notable part in the story? I have a feeling it's just some flavor content for the Underdark, but who knows really.
Having run the pre release, the Llolth background plays heavily, at least in the first act that is available. From spider dialogue, to recruitment, to unusual allies, that curse my inevitable but predictable betrayal! MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I've played a couple of Drow in BG3 and even my "evil" Drow is a Seldarine Drow. I just can't do a Lolth-sworn Drow, I hate that crazy b!#*h Spider Queen, Death to Lolth!
Not sure about Lolth but playing evil character with defined motivations, it would depend on how good BG3 is written. I've played BG1 & 2 countless times, but only after playing evil character for the first time I realized how great writing actually is, there was always a dialogue line that fits the motivations of those characters perfectly and for me it was most memorable playtrough of any games
Hell yeah, I do and i'm simping the whole way !! 😂
The War of the Spider Queen series is one of the best glimpses into Drow society and also the machinations of Lolth. It's six books long, each written by a different author (including the incredible Paul S. Kemp) and all overseen by R.A. Salvatore. The bizarre metamorphosis Lolth undergoes and the wild plots she sets into action do a fantastic job of highlighting her wickedness, and also the strange alien nature of her very being compared to other deities who have not delved so deeply into chaos.
I am aware but talking about that would be a video on its own and well beyond giving the uninformed an overview.
@@spellandshield Oh I was just offering some recommended reading for anyone interested in learning more. Your video is great!
What about shar? Sorry I’m kinda late asking this question but I just finished playing BG3
Absolutely love the content bro, thanks for your hard work. You've definitely done work on your title art and banners. It's impressive.
Lolth stared into the abyss, and as it stared back, it shuttered and allowed her passage
Lolth is more evil than a lot of demons in The Abyss. That say's something about her.
My conclusion was similar to yours, which is why I ended up picking a Seldarine Drow. Lloth Drow are interesting to read about, but the sycophantic worship your character would be expected to engage in is pretty off-putting to me.
Wonderful analysis, well done. Personally I find the least believable aspect of Llolth-sworn drow society is that it is stable to any degree whatsoever. Societies are held together beyond small groups by organizing and forming structures - an inherently lawful activity. A chaotic society might hold together beyond small groups if they are united in general morality - a willingness to look out for one another that would generally be defined as good. However both of these things are anathema to the cult of Llolth. It is therefore my assumption that Menzoberanzan would resemble little better than a collection of warring gangs all vying for power in its various forms. Any organized hierarchy would never last long as the inherent chaos and evil of every member of the society would tear it down; either directly or indirectly via seeking their own advancement over the best interests of said hierarchy.
To be fair that is kind of the Drow's issue. They are constantly at odds with one another - warring and scheming. Its that ability to unite that prevents them from becoming a legit threat to conquer the world.
I was waiting for this! You say bad and evil, I say the only God worthy of devotion! Also, playing a Lolth-Sworn Drow is kind of a dream come true moment for me as I live in a country that playing DnD wasn't a thing until I got my hands on Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate. So, my experience with DnD always came trough the limitations of video games, and playing evil characters have always been lackluster and unsatisfying experiences. With the exception of Obsidian's Tyranny. BG3 having backed devotion to Lolth into a subrace of Drow with impact on story has me excited beyond reason.
Lolth be praised!! 😂
Im doing a male drow character in DnD right now who is too afraid of the potential consequences of not worshiping lolth to forsake her, despite making his way to the surface. He only hopes to avoid her gaze by remaining unimportant. This video was helpful.
" War of the spiderqueen" is a must if your thing is lolth drow.
Honestly I know she's a Evil But it's a good Pick for a Evil character playthrough and or Role play for your villain builds
That voice is amazing
Really enjoying your lore videos. Keep it up.
Thanks
I chose to be a Lolth-Sworn Drow specifically because of this. My intent was to have a fully evil campaign there.
It's not my main campaign, I play based on theming and in this theme, my character and Astarion are both using each other to achieve power.
I have a counter offer .....
Spider mommy
I mean, it's just good life advice in general, like not running with scissors.
There's a draw to Lolth for many who share her desire for wonton murder and deceit, for those who hold no illusions of lasting favor, and understand that everything eventually falls to decay and death. Evil characters who are most honest to themselves and aren't motivated by arrogance and station (which runs counter to most known Drow culture), who live more in the moment, would follow Lolth and truly understand what it means to do so. To hold the reigns of power to ingratiate themselves in the present, but be all too willing to give them up as they watch the world burn around them. Not for praise, not for clout, not for preservation; just to witness things come crashing down and to validate their own nihilism.
Almost all Drow who worship Lolth don't do so for favor, they do so out of fear, to just be able to survive another day. A true devout of Lolth worships her because they want to suck up all the sickly pleasures they can before their cord is snapped, and preferably by harming and abusing as many as possible in doing so. Those are usually the Matron Mothers.
Creating a lolth-sworn drow to then just forsake her entirely is sure a good motivation to create drows.
Loved that the drizzt books i read as a child were accurate to the lore
Interesting point. Counterpoint: tig biddy spider mommy.
lolth sworn drow could work as the Dark urge though. Maybe something happened with that that let you get away from the underdark. And since you have almost no memories save the urge to maim and kill you could maybe use that as an excuse to try to resist and with meeting new party members and friends change to a good character.
Lolth-Sworn cleric (of Lolth, duh) is literally the first thing I am going to play once the game releases. Love the cleric, love drow and I really love the flavour. Though she is going to be realistically and smart evil, not just a chaotic murderhobo. Still contemplating whether I should sacrifice that filthy vampire spawn though...
Lolth Rules!
I played an Lolth sworn claric in pre-release...I burned down the Druid Grove
@@pabranva xD
Wait, there are more people that don't like Astarion, I thought it was only me.
@@TARMHeLL Eh, personally I don't really have a problem with him. My character might tho due to her religious and cultural bias. There are actually many people who dislike him.
Imagine being worse than shar, that's a legit achievement.
Shar is, was, and shall always be.
Yeah, Lolth is considered one of the most evil beings in DnD. She's horrible.
Nice lore video! You got yourself a new subscriber!
I'm gonna play a Lolth sworn drow with the dark urge origin character and go full on Murderhobo psycho drow mod
Wow, great story! I have things to say, but I’m not sure what.
As an AD&D veteran, my first campaign incorporated the Against the Giants series until the Queen of the Demonweb Pits, so I know that "lady" quite well.
Still better than Zuggtmoy, though. :-)
Should have touched on the war of the spider queen. Illustrates the chaos and fickleness perfectly.
Great Video as always. Thx. I was actually surprised that this was an option in BG3(Lolth or Seledine) and curius to see how this ties into the story. Drow as an actual race to choose and not as a Sub-race of Elves....Could play a larger part in things somehow. Guess I will have to go and blow the dust off books 1-6 in the Drizzt series...Still finishing-up "The Heroes" from Abercrombie:) . Peace
Reject Lolth every time. My boy Drizzt walked so my drow could run 😭🙌
I played several playthrough and my All-evil female drow Loth playthrough was the most fun in terms of people's reaction tbh. its not what i would usually play as I'm more of a Neutral player but honestly everyone should try female drow evil playthrough it's hillarious
Honestly, it's actually refreshing to have some actual evil characters instead of all the moral grey that I run into nowadays.
Same people who hate the classic alignment system because "everybody is there own hero" in their heads. Yeah no. Some people do evil to be evil and to get ahead, and if it screws you over EVEN BETTER! It's nice to have a classic evil character to play.
Yeah you are right, but I don't see how a lolth drow would be working with other species. I don't see it. But I will probably play a drow, but a seldarine drow because I think this makes more sense for the game.
@@hector-nu6gl well if you don't mind spoilers, I'll tell u what I've done so far in service of Lolth :)
Found the yellow arrogant toad in the aireal trap and killed her to save the teiflings.
Sided with the teiflings in the uprising against the druids.
Sided with Minerva to let the goblins in.
Lied to Halpin about saving the Grove.
Got the absolutes blessing to use sweet gear.
Killed gut and the chief to hand full power to Minerva.
Wiped out the tie flings with Minerva.
Wiped out Minerva and the goblins for betraying faith in lolth.
Wiped out halsin the wizard and the warlock when they betrayed me.
Took out shadow heart for the artifact.
Its been a crazy whirlwind of a play thru :)
"I like feeling E V I L!" MUHAHAHAHAHA
Oh, and of course saved all the spiders!
Well, in a giant chess game of gods, you kinda need some unhinged evil ones in there ready to pull some shit if the moment presents itself.
you didnt mention those so called favored handmaidens of loth on death are rewarded with a new form of the Yochlols. How she learned the process from Ghaunadaur, also her second attempt she made a alliance with Ghaunadaur.
Sure but I did not to overwhelm a non-DnD audience with too much evidence.
@@spellandshield I think exhaustively spelling it out for the non-DnD crowd is EXACTLY what you need/needed to do. The rest of us who have read the books or heard the details through the years can see this and extrapolate based on reference alone. The rest? They need those gory and extensive details. And better yet, contrast to Shar and to the Seldarine Drow so that the choice in the character creator is explained for what it really is. Otherwise just saying "she may even be more evil than like, Shar, I swear" isn't gonna deliver the point imo.
I think the one interesting angle here is the Absolute, which can steal your Lolth-sworn Drow into their service and ironically making the world a better place.
Insanity would be rejecting the cursed blessings of the Spider-Mommy. Know your love will be unrequited and that your doom will be her design and embrace it! To not give Spider-Mommy your life, heart, and soul is to blaspheme against her and if she rewards your faithful service with torment and death then revel in it for your demise is her joy-if only for a briefest of instants until you are inevitably forgotten!
sounds like a fun time to roleplay
Hmm... I cannot agree with a lot of this. Look at how she rules the Drow and the rules she gives them. Look at the rigid hierarchy of their society. She does not rule them chaotically and only allows chaos to a certain extent. Lolth is cruel but also there is a method and I believe she is masquerading as a chaos goddess. Lolth brings more order to her worshipers than most non-chaotic entities. She uses chaos as a forge. She has been able to overcome her exile being this cunning.
Heresy, how dare you defy the Dark Mother!
Instructions unclear, sacrificed 2 sons to the spiderqueen
"Why you shouldn't worship Lolth!" - said people often picking warlocks and travelling alongside Shar cleric, supersoldier in service of Zariel, another warlock, a vampire, a literal Shahed-belt wizard going to make Aloha Snackbar on a wannabe illitid god, a githyanki...
I mean, not gonna lie, what's one more excess to add to the clusterfuck? :)
Praise her! She makes sure all the goblins fear me 😂
Suddenly I want to make a Lolth-sword Drow. Sounds fun.
I accidentally took a Lolth-sworn drow and down the road I renounced her ways, now I am a drow in the path of redemption, I even got one of my eyes blue again as I vowed against the spider queen.
the hwims and the hwens of the narrator made this enjoyable.
All I hear in this Video is Herasy! Vin'ult Lolth l'Orbb Valsharess!
As someone who's been playing DnD since the 70s I don't disagree with anything you've presented. HOWEVER, I really want to try one for another play-through, no TT campaign or video game (that I've had a chance to play) has ever given me the opportunity to follow Lolth--well EQ1 made all dark elves drow by default but all that meant was running away from npcs that would kill on sight. I do remember encountering some hardcore drow role players in the early days, but even then the game mechanics made it pretty easy to pull it off. LOL we used to even speak the language to each other, some of those people were so impressive, I wonder where they are now, I'd love to game with them again.
But I'm dying to see what the game throws in my way, I justify any acts of mercy as my arrogance in thinking my tadpole might either make me powerful enough to challenge any wrath from Lolth and that she'll see my value and bring me into her inner circle OR I'm delusional into thinking it's outright "protecting" me in a way that I can forge my own path instead of fully carrying out Lolth's will. I haven't decided yet, I'm still going through my initial run-through on a good character but I'm really curious how Larian would play this out--otherwise they wouldn't make it an option.
Making good drow is the worse thing they ever did in the game
MY QUEEN!
Spot on! Thank you for sharing :)
The thing is as a drow...you DON'T get a choice...you are born into it and if you buck the system..well...we see what happens then.
R.A. Salvatore and Ed Greenwood really helped build the world of Faerun for me. When I saw Elminster and Drizzt in Balder’s Gate
1, I had a fangasm. I was reading Forgotten Realms books before I could even find others my age in my small town to play the newly released 3e D&D with me. Someone here said the perception of the drow is based off of secondhand information and there isn’t much lore about Lolth. To them, I say, you obviously have never read R.A. Salvatore or Paul Kemp.
mandatory "i worship her for the lolths" joke is mandatory.
I love Lolth!!! I played through one game of early access as a Lolth Cleric and was awesome! I play DnD in the Forgotten Realms setting and Lolth is my fav diety by far! If you are into reading fantasy and enjoyed the Drizzt books, The Icewind Dale series, Dark Elf series, Legacy of the Drow series, etc (if you have not read them i would highly suggest them) then you should read The War of the Spider Queen series and Lisa Smedman's The Lady Penitent series. For the glory of Lolth!!!
I've read them all and they tell just how bad Lolth is.
@@spellandshield Oh yes Lolth is terrible lol but love her!! lol
@@nataliestclair6176 LoL th
But I love playing a Drow Cleric of Lolth who's a total bitch to everyone in her playthrough. It's so entertaining. 👍🏻
I wonder, if you are a Lolth sworn drow, will she get mad when you fight the spiders……since you aren’t supposed to harm any spider
the "i can fix her" goddess
She's a spider, that why you shouldn't. Oh that's not a big enough reason ok, she's a fucking huge ass spider. I feel my logic is undeniable.
once Corellon was a shapeshifter par non, and so were the elves. But Araushnee tricked the elves in giving up that power, and because Corellon is the quintessential elf he lost that power too, foreever locking him in one form. Corellon blamed this "imprissonment" into one form on the elves and banished them from Arvandor.
I’m going to play do a dark urge as Lolth sworn drow.
Long live to Eilistraee
For a better perspective on Drow society the series “War of the Spider Queen” is a good read. The book “Hero”, Loth is actually in the book and speaks directly to Drizzt. And finally the last 6 books by R.A. Salvatore. Loth is more of a cancer to the Drow than a goddess and in truth it took years and years for her to fully corrupt the Drow.
"This is HERESY! May her venom find you in your sleep!"
I could see not wanting to play Lolth-Sworn on the FIRST playthrough, but, it's an RPG...sometimes it's fun to be evil.
Picking Shadowheart as your character in the final release - a Shar worshiper - does not seem much better, even though it's not the first time a Baldur's Gate game has given you the choice to have a Shar faithful in your party.
Still, Shadowheart is easy to work with. She isn´t a "kick those puppies" type like Astarion.
In fact, it has been hinted SH may not be an actual Shar priestess at all.
Also, I've seen a fan theory that Shadowheart may see a change of heart as the campaign goes on past Act 1.
1:00 ma man sneaked a screenshot of his lineage 2 to the vid
what if the lolth sworn drow i make would have wanted to escape the underdark?
Lolth would never let go of you.
@@spellandshield like she didnt let go of drizzt there are ways to escape a god xD