I would say Catalina is Deliberate Camp instead of Naive Camp. Naive Camp or Pure Camp usually is an audience reaction that can’t really be guessed. That’s why the most popular examples are things like Mommie Dearest and Valley of the Dolls. I honestly the the “Look at me! Look at me!” Has become camp because of the audience reaction to it
I feel like soyeon’s rap in TOMBOY is camp. Def not the whole song. But she was dead serious about the rap. And I feel like it’s arguably so bad it’s good lol. I kinda feel like Ice Cream by blackpink is kinda camp? Like I’m pretty sure they were dead serious about the release I mean they even featured SG on it. But it’s so silly. Maybe intentionally not serious. But I don’t think they intended for it to be as silly as it’s perceived. Edit: they also like never promote or perform ice cream and in that way I feel like it points to it being even more true camp because it’s like they don’t really want to acknowledge it because they know NOW how the audience reacted to it
Yeah definitely! I didn’t realize blackpink has never performed ice cream until now 😭 I thought it was because of the Selena Gomez feature, but they’ve performed Kiss and Make Up on tour, so it must be for another reason
I'm Gonna Be A Star knocked me out 💀 it is definitely camp. Kpop survival show songs are campy in that they ARE serious but it's super on purpose but TWICE's I'm Gonna Be A Star takes the cake oml
I think Shark by Oh My Girl is camp in the same mold as I’m Gonna be a Star. It has a lot of the same characteristics. Wolf by EXO is a good example too I think. It seems like it was meant to be received like their song Monster a few years later. But nowadays it’s remembered fondly for being a great representative of kpop at its silliness. When that song was 100% intended for to establish EXO as badass in their rookie era lol. It doesn’t help that we have that demo version where it’s rumored the members sing badly so the song won’t get picked lol
Yeah definitely Wolf 😭 with the howling sounds, it’s hard to believe they didn’t expect it to be received in a weird way, but kpop was kind of the wild wild west back then lol
Which is crazy because I downloaded one version of the song and fell in love immediately. It wasn't necessarily a demo, but it also wasn't the official release. Either way, Wolf is still one of my top favorite EXO songs 😅
Idk if this is true but I heard the members even cried because they hated the song? Lol the lyrics are so ridiculous that there's no way they didn't have some kind of bad memory with wolf. It seems like it can be categorized in pure camp since I don't think they intended it to sound that silly maybe the producers legit thought it was a good idea 😭
my submissions are aespa savage (particularly the first line) and red velvet's queendom (I think to a western audience the word 'queendom' itself reads as obviously campy, but would guess that this is true to a lesser extent for a Korean audience). I think snsd's the boys and shinee's ring ding dong are borderline 'pure camp' - I think their initial intent was far more serious than we give them credit for nowadays, especially since both have become memes
I think Ring Ding Dong is camp but maybe not a "pure" example, though it was definitely done without irony at least at first and it absolutely took off and made SHINee blow up in a big way
I always really appreciate the value you attribute to words themselves. I can always count on your videos to scratch the part of my brain that loves analysis for the sake of analysis. It's genuinely fun to follow your trains of thought.
Surely no one represents camp more than early NMIXX when they open with O.O, Tank and DICE. The Mixxpop concept is dead serious and although they've gotten better at it (Sonar is like O.O done right), the early days definitely were not received they way they intended.
If I may clear up some confusion about camp and it’s think pieces as someone who’s actively studied camp and likes camp as a conceptual thing in art and studies art mostly art media( TLDR defenition of Art media: beginner-intermediate level of most art concepts and techniques) starting out, Most think pieces about camp as an art concept are trying to divorce Camp from its roots particularly from its queer roots. While this isn’t a bad or good thing because usually you can uproot non cultural specific art (since Queerness is inherently everywhere weather you like it or not, means that it’s not culturally specific and instead a larger more global idea) you can still get that art form all though more diluted, however if you dilute the inherent queer root of camp you get two already existing art genres in the form of Pop art and Art Pop, that also are already genres of Film and media too, ok so obviously you have to go back to the drawing board but then do you dilute it even more and make it more applicable to other arts or do you try to remove both the queer roots and orginal artistic back bone of it and make it more into a school of intention and thought? And well given we’re having this conversation can you guess which one they went with? If you said make it a school of thought then you would be correct. And before you perk up like well how come we can have this and this example of camp that still recognizes it’s queer roots and not have it be the same thing. I would say we’re looking at Film and music, fashion where 9/10 times you’re going to pull that example from, society has traditionally dictated that it is appropriate for LGBTQ+ people and Women, to work in that field. Even in the age we’re living in now where it is more acceptable to work as a woman and or be openly LGBTQ+ and or disabled and all these things that Ballroom culture and the artistic roots of Camp are based on we’re seeing a lot more of the original “camp” style and art comeback and competing with its more watered down version. I’ll even sight Violet Chachki (famously tolerated Drag Queen and model) that when she went to the camp Met Gala that has said she didn’t want to do a completely camp outfit because a drag queen being there was going inherently be enough for main stream watered down Campiness. And so it’s with these last part of the comment I pose that we use Camp In its orginal definition “ The Art of exaggeration and personification to elevate stories, Irony,cultures, Concepts and ideas to the most they can be, made with intentions to be camp or not.” Edit: spelling
I feel like the rap parts in f(x)s songs are camp. I know they were supposed to be good and cool and whatnot, but some of them are weirdly inserted in the song and can sometimes be ridiculous in lyrics, and a lot of people hate it because of that, but others (including me) like them despite it sometimes sounding awkward.
a great example is Karlie Kloss “looking camp right in the eye” photo caption only for her to show up at the met gala looking in a regular short dress. that was unintentionally camp
2nd gen boy groups are pure camp to me, thinking of infinite, early big bang, be2st, 2pm heartbeat!! the overdramatic nature of the mv, song and lyrics, yearning for the one that got away in their skinny jeans and bowl cut hair dancing in front of a futuristic box style set..like it really was that serious to them and I miss it everyday
I disagree that sticker isn't pure camp. Because for the people who made the song and their team who chose the song were serious about it. And also if I'm not mistaken taeyong also loves the song. Well the members may have different opinions, but they are just "advertising" the song in a sense. They are not the creators so their opinion doesn't really matter. But that's just my opinion
I have always thought Exo’s “wolf” was campy because SM was pretty serious about this song and the concept. Now, idk if its pure camp because while it was never confirmed, it is rumored that the exo members disliked the song so much that they purposely sang the demo horribly. Regardless as far as i know, the exo members have always treated the song pretty serious, even though it became like a meme between the fandom 😅
Yeah I think breathe could be considered pure camp! Now that I’m thinking about it… there’s actually a lot of JYP-produced tracks throughout his career that could be considered pure camp, considering he’s (seemingly) very serious about even the most ridiculous things he does in music 😭
i'm gonna throw in la la la by bling bling as my example, i mean if you watch the video the members are def taking it so serious and it's literally perfect
would you belive me if i said that the 10h version af chaewons "lallalalla heundeulheundeul son heundeulgo ne mogsoriga swil ttaekkaji sori jilleo" (catallena cover) is my ring tone ? and jup i think i said in an past vid that my alarm sound is SSOTS by izone xD
Using this definition, would you argue that GANG by Rain would be pure camp? It was trashed and then people ironically started playing it saying “one GANG per day” and eventually looped around to Rain accepting to be in on the joke even though he intended for it to be cool.
I forgot about GANG 😭 I think the trajectory of people’s reception to that song would definitely make it a pure form of camp - a great example of “so bad/questionable that it eventually becomes remarkable in an unintended way”
I went back and listened to GANG after reading this and it definitely sounds better than what I originally remembered! Maybe all that was missing was viewing it with a camp lens
hear me out, soyeon tomboy rap, the music is good, production top tier, but Soyeon really think she was doing something serious with the rap but was received like a joke...
🤔🤔🤔 would you consider NCT 127 2 baddies camp ? (not pure camp but camp lol) and consider skz's s class camp? (This time I mean pure camp lol) I'm curious if anyone would like to answer this haha
I think it’s definitely campy haha 😭 the meaning of the song is genuinely insane when you think about it in a kpop context, but really… I would say most things NCT does are campy to some extent because of how experimental they are
I’ve never truly understood what people mean by “camp” when describing kpop songs.according to google,it means “exaggerated”,but people tend to call any kpop song “camp” and it rlly throws me off
i dont think its a perfect fit but perhaps love shake by minx? in that it was a completely serious release by minx, but stands in stark contrast to the music the members would release when reorganized as dreamcatcher. the absurdity of the song comes from dreamcatcher’s aura/general concept, which WASNT present during its composition. however it might be a bit of a stretch to call it bad? in a similar vein, Sky Sky by Mamamoo has the same general theme of “cutesy song that conflicts with the group that made it because they hardened their image” except Sky Sky’s MV is more traditionally considered to be “bad” by moomoos
Yeah I agree! Maybe not “bad,” but perhaps “questionable” due to how out of place it seems for the members in retrospect, and over time has been recognized for how unique it is And also, Red Moon is one of my favorite kpop albums and I never knew Sky! Sky! had a MV until you mentioned it 😭 I need to go watch it now!
I don't understand why Sticker is considered as a very controversial song. I get why people won't like it but if you just remove the flute.... it wouldn't have received the insane attention it got.
Yeah! I think I would consider it the same kind of camp that Catallena is - intentionally leaning in to its quirky concept via the production, the doctors outfits during live performances, etc.
Hmm that’s kind of a tough one 😭 most people I know in the kpop community regard it highly in terms of quality/performance, but knowing the conditions surrounding the work environment Crayon Pop went through… I suppose people’s attitudes have changed towards it over time with that context? It represents a lot of the darker sides to the entertainment industry, etc. I wanted to categorize it in the same “intentionally campy” category as Catellena, but in retrospect it seems like it could definitely be pure camp depending on your personal understanding of the song and what Crayon Pop was going through
I think when it comes to "natural" campiness, T-ara songs are the purest examples 😂
I love how the orange caramel members were doing the sticker choreo when you presented sticker lol
I didn’t notice that while I was editing haha 😭
I would say Catalina is Deliberate Camp instead of Naive Camp. Naive Camp or Pure Camp usually is an audience reaction that can’t really be guessed. That’s why the most popular examples are things like Mommie Dearest and Valley of the Dolls. I honestly the the “Look at me! Look at me!” Has become camp because of the audience reaction to it
İ think "pick me" by pd48 is pretty camp
Yeah definitely! I think songs made for competition shows make them somewhat serious by default, I think produce 101’s pick me is good example as well
I feel like soyeon’s rap in TOMBOY is camp. Def not the whole song. But she was dead serious about the rap. And I feel like it’s arguably so bad it’s good lol. I kinda feel like Ice Cream by blackpink is kinda camp? Like I’m pretty sure they were dead serious about the release I mean they even featured SG on it. But it’s so silly. Maybe intentionally not serious. But I don’t think they intended for it to be as silly as it’s perceived.
Edit: they also like never promote or perform ice cream and in that way I feel like it points to it being even more true camp because it’s like they don’t really want to acknowledge it because they know NOW how the audience reacted to it
Yeah definitely! I didn’t realize blackpink has never performed ice cream until now 😭 I thought it was because of the Selena Gomez feature, but they’ve performed Kiss and Make Up on tour, so it must be for another reason
@@choujimi yes that was my same thought process! But also kiss and make up was when they had like 7 songs 😭💀
I'm Gonna Be A Star knocked me out 💀 it is definitely camp. Kpop survival show songs are campy in that they ARE serious but it's super on purpose but TWICE's I'm Gonna Be A Star takes the cake oml
I think Shark by Oh My Girl is camp in the same mold as I’m Gonna be a Star. It has a lot of the same characteristics.
Wolf by EXO is a good example too I think. It seems like it was meant to be received like their song Monster a few years later. But nowadays it’s remembered fondly for being a great representative of kpop at its silliness. When that song was 100% intended for to establish EXO as badass in their rookie era lol. It doesn’t help that we have that demo version where it’s rumored the members sing badly so the song won’t get picked lol
Yeah definitely Wolf 😭 with the howling sounds, it’s hard to believe they didn’t expect it to be received in a weird way, but kpop was kind of the wild wild west back then lol
Which is crazy because I downloaded one version of the song and fell in love immediately. It wasn't necessarily a demo, but it also wasn't the official release. Either way, Wolf is still one of my top favorite EXO songs 😅
Idk if this is true but I heard the members even cried because they hated the song? Lol the lyrics are so ridiculous that there's no way they didn't have some kind of bad memory with wolf. It seems like it can be categorized in pure camp since I don't think they intended it to sound that silly maybe the producers legit thought it was a good idea 😭
I think sneakers by itzy is a good example
Clicked as soon as i got the notification! Love your commentary!
Thank you so much! 😭
my submissions are aespa savage (particularly the first line) and red velvet's queendom (I think to a western audience the word 'queendom' itself reads as obviously campy, but would guess that this is true to a lesser extent for a Korean audience). I think snsd's the boys and shinee's ring ding dong are borderline 'pure camp' - I think their initial intent was far more serious than we give them credit for nowadays, especially since both have become memes
I think Ring Ding Dong is camp but maybe not a "pure" example, though it was definitely done without irony at least at first and it absolutely took off and made SHINee blow up in a big way
I always really appreciate the value you attribute to words themselves. I can always count on your videos to scratch the part of my brain that loves analysis for the sake of analysis. It's genuinely fun to follow your trains of thought.
Thank you so much 😭 sometimes it’s hard to know when I’m going too far off the rails lol
Surely no one represents camp more than early NMIXX when they open with O.O, Tank and DICE.
The Mixxpop concept is dead serious and although they've gotten better at it (Sonar is like O.O done right), the early days definitely were not received they way they intended.
If I may clear up some confusion about camp and it’s think pieces as someone who’s actively studied camp and likes camp as a conceptual thing in art and studies art mostly art media( TLDR defenition of Art media: beginner-intermediate level of most art concepts and techniques) starting out, Most think pieces about camp as an art concept are trying to divorce Camp from its roots particularly from its queer roots. While this isn’t a bad or good thing because usually you can uproot non cultural specific art (since Queerness is inherently everywhere weather you like it or not, means that it’s not culturally specific and instead a larger more global idea) you can still get that art form all though more diluted, however if you dilute the inherent queer root of camp you get two already existing art genres in the form of Pop art and Art Pop, that also are already genres of Film and media too, ok so obviously you have to go back to the drawing board but then do you dilute it even more and make it more applicable to other arts or do you try to remove both the queer roots and orginal artistic back bone of it and make it more into a school of intention and thought? And well given we’re having this conversation can you guess which one they went with? If you said make it a school of thought then you would be correct. And before you perk up like well how come we can have this and this example of camp that still recognizes it’s queer roots and not have it be the same thing. I would say we’re looking at Film and music, fashion where 9/10 times you’re going to pull that example from, society has traditionally dictated that it is appropriate for LGBTQ+ people and Women, to work in that field. Even in the age we’re living in now where it is more acceptable to work as a woman and or be openly LGBTQ+ and or disabled and all these things that Ballroom culture and the artistic roots of Camp are based on we’re seeing a lot more of the original “camp” style and art comeback and competing with its more watered down version. I’ll even sight Violet Chachki (famously tolerated Drag Queen and model) that when she went to the camp Met Gala that has said she didn’t want to do a completely camp outfit because a drag queen being there was going inherently be enough for main stream watered down Campiness. And so it’s with these last part of the comment I pose that we use Camp In its orginal definition “ The Art of exaggeration and personification to elevate stories, Irony,cultures, Concepts and ideas to the most they can be, made with intentions to be camp or not.”
Edit: spelling
Sticker, Catalina and I’m going to be to be a star fit into this description if your wondering
calling violet famously tolerated 😭😭 ijbol
@@ilymahi the scandals she’s been in, it feels that way 😭
I feel like the rap parts in f(x)s songs are camp. I know they were supposed to be good and cool and whatnot, but some of them are weirdly inserted in the song and can sometimes be ridiculous in lyrics, and a lot of people hate it because of that, but others (including me) like them despite it sometimes sounding awkward.
Amber's rap on Pinocchio especially, even the way Krystal ushers her into is hilarious
rainbow
that'd made every other K-pop rap camp - mostly.
I agree 😭 I have a weird relationship with a couple of f(x)’s rap verses, but over time I’ve grown to appreciate them
@@choujimi that what made kpop fun was the lyrics I miss corny kpop what happened
a great example is Karlie Kloss “looking camp right in the eye” photo caption only for her to show up at the met gala looking in a regular short dress. that was unintentionally camp
2nd gen boy groups are pure camp to me, thinking of infinite, early big bang, be2st, 2pm heartbeat!! the overdramatic nature of the mv, song and lyrics, yearning for the one that got away in their skinny jeans and bowl cut hair dancing in front of a futuristic box style set..like it really was that serious to them and I miss it everyday
I disagree that sticker isn't pure camp. Because for the people who made the song and their team who chose the song were serious about it. And also if I'm not mistaken taeyong also loves the song. Well the members may have different opinions, but they are just "advertising" the song in a sense. They are not the creators so their opinion doesn't really matter. But that's just my opinion
I have always thought Exo’s “wolf” was campy because SM was pretty serious about this song and the concept. Now, idk if its pure camp because while it was never confirmed, it is rumored that the exo members disliked the song so much that they purposely sang the demo horribly.
Regardless as far as i know, the exo members have always treated the song pretty serious, even though it became like a meme between the fandom 😅
imagine you are competing in a survival show and your rival is given the 1/3 of the lines on the show's promo song, hahaha
miss A's breathe?? i was also thinking lie by exid but that hits sometimes unironically.. breathe really throws me for a loop though
Yeah I think breathe could be considered pure camp! Now that I’m thinking about it… there’s actually a lot of JYP-produced tracks throughout his career that could be considered pure camp, considering he’s (seemingly) very serious about even the most ridiculous things he does in music 😭
@@choujimi i think it's safe to say almost everything jyp does is pretty camp
Alexa, play I'm Gonna Be a Star
I wish it was streamable so bad 😭
BAHAHA I did not realize ALL of Nayeon's lines are the I'm gonna be a star part😭
dice by nmixx is perfectly camp
i definitely think o.o too, especially with the coke ad lol
Tank is far more camp than Dice or O.O
"bo peep by tara" end of conversation
i'm gonna throw in la la la by bling bling as my example, i mean if you watch the video the members are def taking it so serious and it's literally perfect
This was perfect
I think that tomboy and queencard are pure camp, but I'm not a huge neverland so I don't know if soyeon intended them to be camp or not.
There cannot be an aesthetic decision to be camp, as camp cannot be self-aware. So this is really more camp-core.
savage by aespa is quite camp ngl if we think about it
would you belive me if i said that the 10h version af chaewons "lallalalla heundeulheundeul son heundeulgo ne mogsoriga swil ttaekkaji sori jilleo" (catallena cover) is my ring tone ?
and jup i think i said in an past vid that my alarm sound is SSOTS by izone xD
Dare I say sneakers by ritzy
Definitely, unfortunately 😭 #JusticeforSneakers
Using this definition, would you argue that GANG by Rain would be pure camp? It was trashed and then people ironically started playing it saying “one GANG per day” and eventually looped around to Rain accepting to be in on the joke even though he intended for it to be cool.
I forgot about GANG 😭 I think the trajectory of people’s reception to that song would definitely make it a pure form of camp - a great example of “so bad/questionable that it eventually becomes remarkable in an unintended way”
I went back and listened to GANG after reading this and it definitely sounds better than what I originally remembered! Maybe all that was missing was viewing it with a camp lens
I think nmixx - dice, jinjin & rocky - just breath, itzy - sneakers and crayon pop - jumpin fit into this camp style, I think.
the interpretation of im gonna be a star!
hear me out, soyeon tomboy rap, the music is good, production top tier, but Soyeon really think she was doing something serious with the rap but was received like a joke...
The irony of that is only international fans think that way kfans love it international fans don't know how to have fun
@@norabeckwith6893 real, I'm suspicious to talk about soyeon bcz I'm a fan since unpretty rapstar, also you need DELIVERY to make a fun rap like that.
🤔🤔🤔 would you consider NCT 127 2 baddies camp ? (not pure camp but camp lol) and consider skz's s class camp? (This time I mean pure camp lol) I'm curious if anyone would like to answer this haha
I think it’s definitely campy haha 😭 the meaning of the song is genuinely insane when you think about it in a kpop context, but really… I would say most things NCT does are campy to some extent because of how experimental they are
almost every survival show song is camp tbh from pick me to here i am
I’ve never truly understood what people mean by “camp” when describing kpop songs.according to google,it means “exaggerated”,but people tend to call any kpop song “camp” and it rlly throws me off
The whole norazo discography, It's 100% pure camp.
Just ask members of Dreamcatcher if they think Love Shake by Minx feels like camp 😂
i dont think its a perfect fit but perhaps love shake by minx? in that it was a completely serious release by minx, but stands in stark contrast to the music the members would release when reorganized as dreamcatcher. the absurdity of the song comes from dreamcatcher’s aura/general concept, which WASNT present during its composition. however it might be a bit of a stretch to call it bad? in a similar vein, Sky Sky by Mamamoo has the same general theme of “cutesy song that conflicts with the group that made it because they hardened their image” except Sky Sky’s MV is more traditionally considered to be “bad” by moomoos
Yeah I agree! Maybe not “bad,” but perhaps “questionable” due to how out of place it seems for the members in retrospect, and over time has been recognized for how unique it is
And also, Red Moon is one of my favorite kpop albums and I never knew Sky! Sky! had a MV until you mentioned it 😭 I need to go watch it now!
I think My Idol by X:IN is a similar kind of camp to I'm Gonna Be A Star.
camp is the SM culture universe aespa episodes
I don't understand why Sticker is considered as a very controversial song. I get why people won't like it but if you just remove the flute.... it wouldn't have received the insane attention it got.
could aya by lovelyz be considered camp?
Yeah! I think I would consider it the same kind of camp that Catallena is - intentionally leaning in to its quirky concept via the production, the doctors outfits during live performances, etc.
dare i say here i am from boys planet
I would love to hear your opinion on Pew Pew Pew by TMC. I *cannot tell* whether they are serious about that or not lol
Where do you think BarBarBar by Crayon Pop would stand on the camp-iness scale?
Hmm that’s kind of a tough one 😭 most people I know in the kpop community regard it highly in terms of quality/performance, but knowing the conditions surrounding the work environment Crayon Pop went through… I suppose people’s attitudes have changed towards it over time with that context? It represents a lot of the darker sides to the entertainment industry, etc.
I wanted to categorize it in the same “intentionally campy” category as Catellena, but in retrospect it seems like it could definitely be pure camp depending on your personal understanding of the song and what Crayon Pop was going through
@@choujimi true true
What is camp is all the different polka dot sizes
i think all and any PSY songs are “camp”
Most of these examples of camp miss the mark. If you want camp, go back to 2nd gen. UKISS' Manmanhani? Rainism? 2PM's I'll Be Back? Pure camp lol.