2013 Tesla Model S P85 1000 km challenge
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
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Watching Tesla Bjørn channel since 2019 has no Influence on me...bought E-Golf in 2020, bought Model 3 in 2021, wears a Stormberg Jacket, made vacation in Norway this summer😄😄
Greetings from Stauland😉
Ha, I bought a P85 and have a model Y on order.. he has had not influence on me at all :)
Haha, no he hasn’t influenced any of us, buying my first Model S in 2014 after binge watching was purely coincidental.
I can't stop eating Thai food.
I keep telling my wife I am “on the move” and “hammering”
bought my MX 90D in 2016 after watching countless Bjorn's videos. Still, no influence on me 😅
Left Norway to go to Sweden for a double French Hotdog. Love it!!
Unknown in France 😀
I can relate.
I'm honestly looking forward to see how stuff like charging speed, range and maybe even acceleration is going to behave with other carmakers over the years.
You can already see it with some. Early Leafs are terrible. i3's not so bad. I think a lot of it depends on what it was designed to do in the first place.
Tesla takes a unique approach than other manufacturers, they give you 100% of the performance (charging, acceleration, etc) immediately, with no regard to how it effects the vehicle long term. All their figures are quoted at peak charge, brand new. Other manufactures over engineer other parts and nerf the performance so that it will keep the advertised charging speed / acceleration / etc for longer. It's just the nature of going flat out with everything versus being more traditional 'safe' approach and building buffers into everything.
@@omelvold Thing is thats not smart engineering or helping to move things forward - thats just gaming the system for easy marketing and now those of us who got the early cars are paying for that.
I've got a 2013 P85 and a 2016 Hyundai Ioniq. I also have a house at the Mediterranean, 800km from my home. It takes exactly the same time to get there with both cars, but the battery of the Tesla is three times bigger. The Ioniq has 200'000km on the clock with a high percentage of fast charging, the Tesla only 80'000km with a low percentage of fast charging, yet the Ioniq still performs exactly like new and also suffered much less battery degradation (almost none in fact). I love my P85 and I'll never sell it, but the Ioniq is a much more practical and much more sensible car. It's also better in most ways on long distance trips despite having less range, because it has better seats, smart cruise, auto steer, etc and uses considerably less electricity. However, I would buy a new Tesla in a heartbeat, if they were to make a somewhat sensible car.
I think that the Millennium Falcon can still make the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. - Harrison Ford.
Bought my P85D used two years ago, so i never missed the faster charging speed. And 30min extra on a 10h drive is not really something i worry about, that might happen once a year.
Wouldn't trade my P85D for a newer but smaller car that charges slightly faster, even though it's done 200k km!
Similar situation here and i fully agree. 900 km trip, 3 * 50kW charger: Late breakfast, lunch and afternoon tea, done. Never have to wait. Arrive relaxed and had a safe drive.
@@moestrei not if one's driving on the highway. E. G. When traveling in the summer, I drove >1200km in a day, in about 10 hours, with lots of stops and 1.5yo twins in a 8yo ICE vehicle that costs less than Tesla's battery pack.
EVs are not there yet in replacing ICE if one can't have long trips in 10yo cars
@@ionbarari7202 With these conditions (distance /kids) many people would plan it over 2 days. With overnight charging easily done. I find it interesting how many people waste their life watching TV/gaming/social media and then complain about arriving an hour later. EVs are replacing ICE sooner than later as many countries have relevant legislation plus many manufacturers will just stop making ice. Most sold car in Europe in September 2021: Tesla Model 3. For most ICE owners its about getting your head around change. The price will normalize with time, right now its a high demand and little supply issue. I always had cars around $2000-$5000 but bought a Model S P85+ for $40.000 two years ago. Have not regretted a cent.
@@Xanthopteryx Time will tell. I'd say it goes quicker than anybody thinks because of the overall economics and driving pleasure. Also as a big battery on wheels the perfect complement to renewable energy. Im in an area of frequent blackouts and soaring energy prices. But im on off-grid solar for 22 years now: Still on the 1st battery, never had a failure and charging my Tesla (has done 312.000km) it. 30.000km / year incl. 850km trips. Easier, way cheaper, no-brainer. I calculated if all 21million vehicles in my country would be Model Ss doing 15.000km / year power generation would need to be increased by 12%. Doable.
I bought my 2013 P85 last month with 76k in Toronto area, it's my first Tesla and an nice upgrade to my 24kwh Leaf. 99% of my trips are local and we have few supercharging stations near my home. The car is not as efficient as my leaf but I can understand that as it's much heavier car. I also notice the charging speed issue but it's not necessary a bad thing in my situation. I usually charge my car while waiting to pick up my kid. While charging, I usually do grocery shopping/eat/refund at the same time, or stop by a Mcdonald to work remotely with my laptop. I always have to adjust the charging range to give me enough time to avoid the idle fee. For long road trip, I still have my old mini van. Given that I paid only 37% of the original cost of the car, this is still a very good deal and useful for day to day. I'd rather to have it to charge slower to protect the battery health. I want to drive my car for at least 10 more years. We picked this over the model 3 because it's roomy interior and also a lot cheaper. Used model 3/Y cost more than new right now and a used Model S is a better buy. I don't feel like pay few thousands over MSRP to buy a used model 3 with 70,000km on it. And autopilot is not that essential for me.
Are you still driving it? How’s the battery doing?
You are absolutely right Bjorn. The same happens to me. Tesla tries to avoid Battery warranty issues by reducing charge speed in order to have less impact on the battery. This is most likely SW induced. Started in 2019 with my car. And I have more than 95% AC charging. This makes me walk away from tesla, The car isn't really usable on long range like this. Degredation is very small, but reduction in charge speed is crazy. In my car it's even more (max 62 KW with preconditioned Battery). Tesla is not helpful at all....
Same here!
Hi Bjørn,
Do you still have millenium falcon? If so could you plan another 1000km trip after the latest upgrade from Tesla that presumably increases the charge speed on the 85 pack
Thank you for making this film, we appreciate it very much! This is a good statement for old tesla owners
Agreed, as an "old Tesla driver" !
What about adding a new column to the excel sheet to even out the range % differences between wide and skinny tyres + temp differences? Would be interesting to see I think!
Didn't expect to see You here! 😁
lmao, go catch some more cheaters for vids
@@popefrancis9756 rude :(
eyyy. I know you.
@@SniperSnake50BMG No I meant a stat modifier based on conditions recorded. Just to even out the times a bit.
Bjørn, I totally agree with you. As an early adopter with a Model S still in use Tesla made me a tester for their car. The actual charging speed is so slow, that I decided to sell the car. There is no compensation from Tesla, so the new car won’t be a Tesla.
Good luck with other manufacturers being more open to compensate you if their cars suffer from degradation and loss of charging speeds.
Another distrust customer, congratulations Tesla.
A bit compensation is the free charching.
If you did not realize that you might be an early adopter when buying an early sample of the first mass produced car from a new car manufacturer, this might be on you. A car that was revolutionary on so many levels that the Citroen DS seems like a boring addition to the car world. OBVIOUSLY you would be a tester. This was all new technology, as in not rivaled by anyone ever. Additionally, this was a US company in Silicon Valley. Honestly I find the hint that you feel entitled to compensation ridiculous.
With that said, I salute you for buying an early sample. Your sacrifice has, is, and will actually change the world for the better.
Bjorn. A car is like a human body, treat it well during its life and as it ages it can still do most of the things it did when it was young, not as often and not as FAST.
It has nothing to do with that.
@@bjornnyland Oh I thought it was. When anything ages you have to treat it more carefully !
I absolutely love my P85DL+ in every way, it's fast, huge storage, best safety, amazing handling, the best seats I been in and much more, but it's the charging speed which annoys me. Good thing to have the supercharger network, the other are just rubbish to use, not working, 50kW most of them, queue, 1000 different apps and just too complicated then it should be. But I'll rather recommend someone the TM3 performance instead, for time being.
Watching your channel since 2013. Bought 2014 model s. You are a great influencer. Still have it now and have noted the reduced charging speed. Elon took a chapter out of Tim Apples playbook. Onto the Y in September. Many thx.
Thank you for making this test again in order to raise awareness of how much Tesla limited the usability of those cars!
Really appreciate.
I am an owner of one of such cars (2014 P85), and it is a pain to actually arrive at the destination usually 1 (sometimes even 2 hours) later than what you would expect from the initial planning, for longer journeys. And this many times with a 3-year-old child, where every 10-20min extra time in each charging station seems an eternity after some hours of driving.
It is not feasible to stop every hour for charging (in order to not charge more than 50%), also not feasible to stay at a charger for 1h or more in order to have proper range, but many are stuck with this situation.
I was not aware of this when purchasing the car (second hand, not many knew about this yet), so now I am stuck with this situation, good luck in re-selling the car now when most of the community knows just how slow those models can be.
I just hope Tesla would do something about it apart from selling a 20k€-25k€ battery replacement.
I am aware that it can not get to the same charging speed (battery is 7y old, already passed 200.000km mark) but 30%-35% slower charging is ridiculous!
See, that's the problem I have with electric cars. The newer Teslas Will probably behave like yours down the line
Thailand announce the new plan to lower the EV import tax, so Tesla or many non-Chinese EVs are more affordable in Thailand. But still no plans to stop the ban of importing second-hand cars (EV included) that is more affordable than the brand-new EVs.
And that is one of the reasons why I traded my P85 a month ago in to a 2021 Model 3.
The charging speeds with my P85 was just getting sad compared to when I got the car at the start :/
Be prepared to make a trade in another 5 years. It will be same same but different.
Nope, it will most likely not happen with Model 3.
@@InternetDude Because the same will happen with any car manufacturer. It has nothing do do with manufacturers it is about battery limitations... If they dont do this something else will happen and the same people will complain again, why it wasnt sorted out the other way around.
@@bjornnyland yes, not the same specific battery issue. But, maybe something else fail with new tech, and resulting experience is same as long as tesla approach is the same.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 The new 4680 batteries will be million mile batteries because the warranty on the Tesla Semi truck will be for a million miles! These were very early models.
After 200+ miles ... I'd be grateful I still can drive this car.
If I look at positive side , a 6-7 years old EV today is a huge time considering technologie development . So having that car still doing same or little more time than new ones is a good result especially in many cases people don’t drive 1000km every week. For me 30min or 1hour drive more on a total of 10-11hours drive is acceptable for such an « old » car
But in 2 years, Optimus Prime will be as old as Millennium Falcon is today. And he will most likely still hit 140 kW.
@@bjornnyland let's have a race between Optimus and the Millennium Falcon! but first fix the wheel stagger on MF. Optimus was always more thirsty too
Most Model S 85 owners don't drive 1000km every week, it's true, but when they do, *unlike Bjorn* they don't:
* stop every 100km or less
* record/edit videos while waiting
* don't use a passport
* use ScanMyTesla
* arrive with less than 1% SoC
* ignore Tesla navigation charging time and SoC at arrival estimates
* drive alone
If Bjørn tried it as most people doing 1000km in these cars, traveling with their families, he would probably
* drive at least 2hrs in a row,
* tried his best to keep the family entertained and their minds away from the charging speed
* drive within speed limits (+/- VAT)
* kept everybody reassured that the SoC is enough to arrive to the destination (despite "drive below ..." warnings on the screen)
Not only the 2019.16.1 update tanked the charging speed but it also messed up the SoC estimates. It would be interesting a challenge between different cars where the onboard gom/estimates would be followed religiously to compare how good they are.
If you drive one of these older Tesla's, you must know the car and when to start making your own estimates. It makes it usable. Otherwise, they're not much more than amazing XXL size city cars.
I raise this point every time someone mentions X car with X hundred mile range needs even more range. But then if you don't need such a high range, why get a Tesla?
@@benholroyd5221 most time you don’t need a Tesla …. But You want a Tesla :) In my case my model 3 is my only car so I needed a car that can do all type of trip and situations but for many friends that look for a second car ad EV I recommend them « smaller&cheaper » cars with lower range .
I would assume it is a design problem that caused them to lower the charging speed in order to keep them safe. Most likely that won't happen to the newer cars now.
It is sad for the owners but the cars back then was basically glorified betas.
I agree on the compensation though, there wasn't that many sold off these so give them 10.000 euros or a large discount on a new tesla.
They don't make the 85kW pack anymore, that's the biggest reason
@@mikaeloverby They could easily compensate the nerfed ones with 90kWh packs or with the existing 350V 85KWh pack. I have the feeling they dont care anymore about the early adopters.
Same problem with my S85 (2015) since more than 2 years. Last Software update was in January (10 month ago). Tesla is too big to see the people any more, they just want to sell new cars.
Not true. There're more recent sw updates. Check with your Service Center.
@@InternetDude duh how many car makers other than tesla even update their older cars at all? Just upgrading your navigation system with VW costs you like 1k these days.. It's insane. And one of the reasons the older Model S didn't see upgrades is likely that they have been remodeling the production thus they likely didn't work too much on the software when doing that, but idk.
@@LunnarisLP "what you pay, what you get" is norm with all car manufacturer.... for tesla, "pay so more, get not that much more". I think all costs including SW updates is included and promised in price tag, its not a cheap car buy the way to compare against.
If the nerf is done to protect the battery then I don’t mind. I just put in a bid for a 2014 p85 with refurbished battery and all the bells and whistles. We won’t be making that kind of trips at all. Maybe 400-500 km a couple of times a year.
I have followed your channel since you bought Millenium Falcon. You inspired me to buy our Model 2014 S85 (after finding a Model 3 too cramped and over-sprung for grown-ups). Degradation at 80k mles is only 7% but charging speeds are woeful, as we sit for over an hour and watch 3 Model 3's come and go. Best we've seen was 83kw for just a few minutes but by the time we get to 90% it's 21kw - pathetic Tesla. But what can we do? Nothing.
Oh my Lord 😢😢😢 I had no idea Tesla did this to older gens. Not bad compared to other EVs charging at 50-80kw but with a much smaller batt it's fine.
"No vegan shit, Greta's going to be so mad: How dare you?!" -- Highlight of the video for me!
At a guess I’d say like Bjorn, you’re one who follows your conditioning rather than your bodies signals, just a guess ! Numerous studies have shown that vegetarians and vegans are far healthier than the average person with less disease and maladies.
She flies all over the world, her carbon footprint is a million times worse than my lazy ass!
Didn't know they nurfed charging when it gets older! And I was afraid they'd just randomly cut off super charging if they felt like it like in america. ARGH, I hate they got so much control over something I bought and OWN. Is this a problem with new models as well?
I don't understand why so many car manufactories are using frameless windows nowadays. The older the car gets, the more issues you get with sealing / wind noice, freezing and stuck windows during winter etc.
That is not true, it 100% depends on the manufacturer, take any mercedes 300CE from 1987 (34 year old). No problems at all with the frameless windows.
@@buddy1155 Well Mercedes from the 1980s were probably exceptions from the rule. Built like a tank! ;-) I have experience with several other makes and models, and they all have issues.
@@xiphias256 I agree that the 1980's Mercedes are probably the most durable cars build. And I agree that problems you summed up are indeed common at several cars.
The problem is always bad design, there is nothing inherent wrong with frameless windows.
We only disagree on the fact that it should be dropped or should be improved. If we dropped all technology that wasn't perfect on first try we would still be living in caves.
Weight.
Yep, its crap, for all the reasons you mentioned. Wish my car didnt have it.
50kW is state of the art ! This is what Hydro Quebec install here in 2021 ;-)
Same ridiculousness in BC with BC Hydro. They are hyping how they are going to double the amount of public Chargers in BC. No mention of speed, but almost certainly only 50kW since that is all they have currently installed...
Hmmm....my MS, which is EXACTLY same age (November 2013 an 260'000km by now on original battery pack), is still running at very good efficiency (average som 200Wh/km). Do you have a tire problem? However, let's not talk about charging speed....
Nice, what has been the degradation over that time?
@@davidshipp623 Degradation was never a problem. I recently had it checked out and it still has almost 90% of its capacity despite almost 50% SuC ratio and many high speed runs on the German Autobahn as well as many trips in the cold such as a trip to the north cape at -20°C.
@@heinzruffieux5817 That’s cool, I’m only at 136,000KM in my 2016 P90DL and am running at between 1 and 2% degradation but was slightly worried it might jump at 160,000 upwards. Nice to know this might not be the case!
@@davidshipp623 90s to my best knowledge got a slightly different battery technology. However, they as well are expected to loose most of the capacity at the beginning and then stabilize. But 1-2% seems VERY low for 136kkm Are you sure about? Did you have it analyze? The on board system may trick you out, if you never run it to 0% to "calibrate" the BMS.
I think he did say that he had less efficient tires on or something
I was thinking about a used MX. Now I'd think twice about it. Thanks for the heads up.
I run a Model S P85 from 2015 125,000 UK miles, I remember the update that nerfed the charging also my car toasted the battery (water leak over 3 years finally battery went futt) Tesla replaced the battery for free as car was at 75,000 miles it went quicker but charged slower so no big deal.......still love this car.....waiting......waiting........waiting for my Roadster.
That window is the OG coldgate 😂
The triangle window can be adjusted, takes 10 mins.
@@InternetDude I have done it myself, it is very easy to do. How hard is it to line up glass / metal with soft rubber? LMAO.
I found it nice to see the old binnacle screen, reminded me of my old 2014 MS, which I occasionally miss. I used to like to moment by moment power usage.
It makes economic sense to slow charging or they’ll have to pay for new batteries. After the 8 year warranty is up maybe they’ll allow faster charging thereby selling more replacement batteries?
No. Its not this reason. TB car is already out of warranty. Its 8 years or 160k kms. The car have probably driven more than 160k without nerf. Doesnt make sense to many 85. Cant be the reason.
Correct. Millennium Falcon has 8 year unlimited km battery and drivetrain warranty. What Balaji is talking about is Model 3 warranty which is completely different.
@@bjornnyland yes, as well for TMS and TMX, what i learnt is when tesla changed the warranty terms from unlimited to 240k kms, it immediatly applies for all year make. I think at first they put 160k limit and then changed to 260k. Whatever it maybe, it is not good to promise and sell a car with unlimited terms and suddenly broke the promise and put a km limit.
Considering its an 8 year old ev. not bad at all. just not in winter. Remember this was early adopter tech, tbh, its a surprise its still alive.
My question is, is this because there is an increment on internal resistance with the aging?, If not, my perception of Tesla will of course be changing. So, if it is because aging let's see LiFePO4 behaviour next upcoming years, very interesting. Thanks Björn
Solve an issue, another issue shows up, thats reality of new technology, however, the way tesla handled the 85 battery issue will as well similar for all new tesla products, thats a serious trust issue on the manufacturer-customer relstionship
That is the question. But they surely must have done a cost-benefit analysis with fancy graphs and everything, and conclude that they are coming out worse if old batteries are to rapidly lose capacity (with higher charging speed) vs. the other. It's hard to make a distinction between how much of it is based on the physical reality of batteries vs. PR, hence the trust issue. So it goes back to the basic message that Mr. Musk was telling from the start, that his mission is to accelerate sustainability. I'm nobody, but I'd say it's important to value the good intention, even when some realities creep in the picture and erode that trust.
It's his word, basically. How much of this trust would be there if the corporation didn't have him, though...
@@szaboaz i have colleagues with other EV car, dont remember manufacturer.
They as well get battery issues, but got battery packs upgraded to different model pack.
Ideally, all 85 pack should have received a recall, or proper fix, not a cheap bandaid fix by nerfing charging.
The fancy cost-beneift analysis that you are talking is irelevant for a customer point of view, my car is cripled, bottomline is trust and promise is lost.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 yep. They've already lost one new purchase from me so far. I have another car coming up for replacement and am not considering Tesla for this one either since this remains unresolved.
@@abraxastulammo9940 can you downgrade easily or is it a tricky thing? Thanks
Can't wait for the 1000 km challenge once you get the Tesla Semi :D
I don't think you discussed why it might be nerfed.
Don't forget: this car is only 8 years old. That's not much at all, loads of people want to keep their cars at least that amount of time.
According to IHS, the average length of ownership was a record 79.3 months, or nearly seven years.
It's more than average.
@@avirbd Yes, a bit more than average. Which means it is still in the high part of the bell curve.
the cars estimation of 15min to 50% was correct, maybe 1min off or so. just check your time. I always said, the KW is fairly lower, but the time is the same. Or maybe 3-5min off compared to before. I think they changed the KW value, what it means on the old cars. I know how long I had from 10% to 70% on old versions. If I meassure the time now, its like 4min more then before. but the KW is way lower...
I switched tires from Pirelli to Michelin and got between 30-40wh/km higher consumption on average. Significantly more in higher speeds and rain. Will be going back to Pirelli.
Double check your tire pressure. I’d get 15-20% higher conaumption at 41 psi than t 45+ psi. Massive difference.
@@Frygisk Have done it several times, but it makes no difference. Michelin Pilot Sport 4 has a different rubber compound, which makes them more sticky and thus has a worse rolling resistance. But on the plus side, they get an incredibly good grip on dry asphalt.
With my Pirelli P Zero I was able to get down to just over 140Wh/km on 70-80km/h roads. Now I hardly get below 200Wh/km on the same roads.
@@eastcoastdashcamsweden2483 Similar tires dont have that difference, by far. Something else is amiss/different. I guarantee it.
I like the look of these French stereo hot dogs. I like Bjørn's German words and pronunciation. I like it all 😎
This is really frustrating, they even leave battery cooling running on 85packs when you leave them with SOC over 78% which makes it impossible to prepare for larger trips when having no Wallbox.
Did you actually speak to Tesla about the nerfed speed? If they are so scared abt. those 85packs why they dont offer at least a discounted upgrade to 90 packs or smth?!?! Someone with some influence needs to speak up to Tesla abt this, as you said: leaves no good feeling for early supporters
And the bat pumps are still running after 6 hours after a 100% long distance run. This car is nerfed to death. What a joke.
Could do an update for the XC40 with the latest 1.7 firmware and range optimizer enabled? The consumption is way off for it in your datasheet :)
That sucks. I thought an older S would be a great "All-American road trip" vehicle. Did they nerf all markets?
Do they un-nerf it if you buy a new battery, or do you just be happy it's not a Leaf and charge on AC?
@@RandyTWester happy that it’s a non-leaf leaking in air. Maybe I’d rather have a leaf in that case.
@@RandyTWester The OG LEAF is a great car.
It's only the 85 and 70kwh packs that they throttled. Get a 90 or 100 pack and your good to go Transamerica ;)
it still is
240,000 miles on the pack , 8 years old and it still charges quicker than a mk2 leaf
164K miles... You got to imagine there are Model 3s with more miles then that on a batt pack... also will be interesting to see LFP with high mileage and how it does.
You're comparing apples with bananas ...
Hi Bjorn my m s is a 70d it’s charging curve is similar to your p85 but i still live it
Mine's also a 70. It's worse than this unfortunately. I also live with it, but any trip which requires more than 1 charging stop becomes a nightmare
Great video as always, Bjørn!
Watching these videos kinda make me doubt my purchase on a tm3 Lr 🥺 got delivery some time in desember though, still some time to decide 🤷 great video though, by the way the right lane in the start of the video are primarily for speed locked vehicles, heavy vehicles or vehicles that is turning off the highway, so correct placement would be middle lane
This will most likely not happen with Model 3. Watch tomorrow's video.
Hmm, interesting. People worry about degradation, but it seems with Teslas the bigger worry is the nerf in charging speeds. Which is good news in a way (still great usable range), but of course for those that do drive long distance it is bad news.
Show me another electric car from 2013 that can do this in under 12 hours... :)
Exactly, Bjørn is comparing a 8 year old car with 260,000 km with new cars... let's see in 8 years when we compare an E-Tron or EQC with a Model 3 or Newer S with 260,000km...
ABP. Always Bring Passport. 👍
Really entertaining 🤭 Cold air leaking 😤
I have the same Tesla with 170k. Two months ago battery was replaced within the warranty, but charging speed was not changed. Looks like it’s the limitation is not in the battery, but in the car itself. I think with older software release it will charge faster.
All 85Kwh batteries of this chemistry are limited. You just got a refurbished battery of the same type, it will slow charge. The limitation is not the car. As soon as you install a 90Kwh battery in there (or maybe a completely unexistent new 85Kwh one, but no longer produced) the charging limit is no longer there.
It would be so interesting to get MF to Autoteile Zimmermann (a very good Tesla specialised Workshop in southern Germany with own YT channel) to see what's the condition.
The battery nerf? That's because a small number of those old 85kW Packs started to burn, they found out it's because the chemistry can't handle the fairly optimistic charging speed with high cycle counts. That's why they reduced it with a firmware update. At least that's the story I know, not 100% sure.
Sounds plausible that a 5 year old battery pack would be speed capped. Tesla has always been pessimistic about superchargers.
One solution is probably to “rotate the tyres” to even out the wear, to “rotate” the battery modules in the pack after 5 years, replacing cells in the modules that are unbalanced to refurbish the battery pack.
However, you would also need parts that aren’t easy to obtain, working or new/refurb battery modules with refurbished, or new cells of a different chemistry/age that is modified to work with the same BMS parameters.
It’s not like swapping the tyres, it’s swapping the “fuel tank”. And possibly the motors and axles. And the charging circuit / side panel for CCS charger support. Etc. extensive modifications, outside of warranty or safety.
However, the problem is that failed super-charging, dropping back to 50kw or lower isn’t obvious to the driver unless they can access the BMS directly to look at the pack diagnostics which shows thermals and voltage levels that might have weak cells in a module, which brings down the whole module. And it’s not a good idea to allow that, because then people would want (and probably now armed with some justification) to replace the packs under warranty.
Maybe there’s a way to rebalance the pack or assay the “problematic cells” that are reducing the DC float to a “safe” current to balance the aging cells more gradually. I have seen that some workshops have pulled the older packs apart to replace/repair the modules that have excess heat, by rebalancing and watching with thermal cameras for cells that heat up and refurbishing the module over time, sic.
But it’s not something you could do with an insured/warranty car.
Not yet anyway.
@@Toliman. so many "could be", "may be", this and that reasoning by experts and 3rd party workshops.
but no proper communication from tesla to owners. I am not a lawyer, but, i can feel that this is not legally correct, cheating the customer.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 the problem is that you're looking at chemistry reactions that occur when you charge, and discharge.
The Battery in an EV, is not a homogenous "ocean" or single object, but a population of individual cells in a "city".
There is no communication from Tesla, because there's no way to actually know if the battery pack is "bad" or "good" unless it has an observed problem. And that fault may not show up unless someone spends dozens of hours to pull the battery apart and check rigorously, or there's a catastrophic event, which also may not show up.
If Tesla just sent out information to owners that they could pay to swap their old packs with 2022 Model S LFP and an upgrade for BMS, EPU/UI upgrades and charging, as an option... this would solve the wishy-washy silence from Tesla where they won't even talk about their problems, because it opens up very public liability for their past mistakes.
The silence does create a problem, as it has also led to opportunities, i.e. Rich Rebuilds wouldn't be the powerhouse he is, without salvaging and savaging Tesla mercilessly. He's right to be aggrieved, but the argument that it should be up to Tesla, is supposing that Tesla can fix their own cars. Which sounds ridiculous, but it probably has a kernel of truth, they may not be able to fix their own cars, or offer upgrades without getting into legal problems of liability or misrepresentation, because some people will miss out if they offer an upgrade path.
Much the same as you can't know if there's a potential criminal in an entire Country or City unless there's some indication, or, you just lock the entire city down to find a potential problem ... which is a terrible method that inverts safety for anxiety.
And just like a city, when there's a problem, you don't empty the entire country and replace the people and homes. You just find the problem and fix it when you find the problem.
The issue is that Tesla, being first in a lot of ways, can't pioneer laws or Customer Service. It's always been obnoxiously mediocre with CS and Repair, to a critical point where it has been a major weakness for their early adopters left with broken cars for months or years in some cases. This has improved, but it's a problem that they should be legally forced to face, especially the unacknowledged defects that they won't list, because it would slow down production lines of new cars, to focus on meeting obligations or expectations of service.
The problem isn't the black and white "replace", it's the grey of "meets expected performance", because, there is no agreement or condition to benchmark what the battery should be like at the end of the warranty period. or beyond the warranty period in the case of some of the P85Ds and P90 series, and older. There is no customer law or lemon law that guarantors or protects consumers with a 10 year old car needing replacement or repair.
The cardinal idea is that the Battery just exists, so it should work as if it were a 9v battery that you just slide in and out. And, for insurance, they would prefer to have the battery as a single unit in the event of lease terms, collision or defect, recall or repairs.
If the Car Manufacturer's were forced to replace cell packs, by insurance concern or safety concern, we would be having a vastly different level of discussion.
Instead, the problem exists where the degradation of one, many, all or any cell out of the Possible Billions inside Powerwalls or Tesla's is a factor that cannot be predicted, and it can't be insured or detected in advance either.
The odds are fantastic, but it only takes that one fatigued cell or manufacturing defect to destroy a car, or a power station, or a garage, etc. If you treat the battery as if it's a 9V "single unit", then it seems insane not to replace it and deal with the refurbishment market. And, some people do deal with pack swaps when there's problems.
Instead, just like a city, you can have trouble monitoring the behavior of thousands of people, especially if you only have 3 or 4 sensors, the "police" of that city. If there's thousands of small individual cells, and one AA sized cell (roughly) out of 1000 have a minor defect, or they shift or move over time due to environment or vibration, or there's an imbalance of charge potential, there's a safety system that has to kick in to prevent the module and also notify the car "somehow" that there's going to be a loss in capacity.
How or when this happens, is not public, and that algorithm could change, and apparently has in the past decade.
Conversely, Tesla isn't going to check this across a fleet of millions of cars unless they have to perform an incredibly detailed assay of their global fleet, or they have a method to survey and self-diagnose the modules.
There are alternatives, but if you are in the position of having a liability like an aged battery pack on an aged car, it's going to be a problem that Tesla or the 3rd party markets are going to solve, with or without Tesla.
I hope that the other brands will still have a running car in 9 years.😃
I miev and Leaf are older than this. Seems to work better(?) Mechanically, but battery less so. Things have changed though, I dont forsee many problems.
Great video - love the commentary and view of EV life in N EU.
But… not sure your criticisms of the Model S are valid. Your tests are great; but I don’t believe that’s the normal use case. I suspect most people will charge a) overnight; b) while I’m at work. And batteries - at least their current tech - do degrade. 315 000 is a LOT of driving and charging.
Is slowing done to prolong battery life, avoid fires and protect Tesla image ? I think that they tought well at this before doing it.
The new Model S Plaid has 255 in the front and 285 in the rear. Massive tires!
Summer tires with the temps between 1C and 13C?? Pirelli says their P Zero summer tires can crack if the temp goes below 7.2 C.
Sorry if someone else has asked already... what wheels are on the car? They're not the stock wheels
So if I have a trailer, Do I just make the trailer stick out that way A car can still use the front charger? Bjorn those pigs are so intelligent, vegan alternatives can be good too. I love your vids and humor.
I see the same problems in my Model S 100 D from 2017. The Charging Speed is higher than yours. But lower than in history (Softwareupdates !)
I need from 10% to 80 % 55 min in optimal Condition.
This was the last Tesla.
Tesla still has a long way to go. I'm not even talking about quality issues. in new models too
You think the 85 is bad! My classic Feb 2013 model s 60 doesn't go over ~50kw hahah. It takes 2x as long to supercharge as the computer predicts.
This is why many people cant stand to hear about how great tesla is over and over again. Tesla doesnt care about you at all, the beang in the window alone is unacceptable for a 100k car… I love my model 3 but im glad im getting rid of it in 3 years and dont have to own it when its older
Incorrect. Tesla makes great cars and they have outstanding tech and app. But in this case, they made the 85 kWh packs suck.
@@bjornnyland I get your point, but this is a 100k eur/usd car. You shouldnt have to put a beany in your window and you shouldnt have this kind of performance after this time. Its not acceptable for a 50k car let alone a 100k one
9:02 absolute madman
Bjorn you haver to do a trip internet Portugal you won't complaint about the food, it's the best
And drive your Millenium Falcon over here!!!
So old battery charge slower?
I'm looking forward to an LFP model 3 with maybe 300 mile range in the future. Long term will have less degradation and probably won't be nerfed due to less fire risk.
If not nerfing, some other issue might showup and end up in similar situation 5 years after.
Quite certain they have gone through most of the baby problems now. The first cars sold was more like concept cars still under development.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 As with any other car. Look at Leafs or Bolts.
Consumption is really high damn. I saw a video of a tesla model s plaid doing around 188wh/km at 70mph with the 21" wheels.
My takeaway of this video is TB and wifey going Thailand. Uploads will make my winter. Hope pregnancy carv real thai food, southern. E.g. Pak Phayun
Brother of another mother, north thai food tasteless. Would love to se a video renting EV roadtrip down south. TB drooling proper food
Does this mean that used EVs (Tesla's) will soon drop price dramatically?
But what is your normal long distance consumption, because here in the Netherlands my 85 from 2014 does 220 for 120 km/h. Nevertheless, the charging speed is similar and not Tesla worthy.
Netherlands is flat. Norway has hills.
There is always a much higher consumption right after supercharging for about 15 km on highway is my experience and then it falls to about 220-230 this time of year with winter tires.
Is Toyota going to compensate that phone app for Proace EV does not exist? Although it was showed in the brochure and claimed ‘ 'coming soon’ in the owners manual.
Hei Bjørn. Thank you for this video . I'm planning to buy s85 2014 . When you plan to drive 1000km TEST with NIO ES8 using swap stations (one just opened). Very excited to see it. Thanks.
Bjorn are you going to test the new KIA EV6 soon? :)
This will be a funny comparison to the Plaid :D Electric car evolution of 8 years
The numbers of original owners affected by nerfing should be small enough for Tesla to compensate in some way relatively inexpensively. Or how about giving them the option not to protect the battery and remove nerfing. i wonder if anyone has tried jail breaking their Model S.
Yes, this has been done. But it's pretty bad pr to add a button in software that might start a battery fire lol.
i think an important aspect to keep in mind here is that this is an older model S, not a brand new of the line car (with the price to match)
in my country these models swap owners for about 28.000 - 35.000 euro's, in that pricerance the model s with the 85 battery currently remains unbeaten in both range, charging speed and performance untill you get to go above around the €42000 mark, and even then you don't tick all the boxes.
all in all, i think this model S has aged very well, and remains very usable for both daily driving, sporty driving and longer trips while remaining affordable enough to become a serious contender to an ICE vehicle.
If the price of these old models S cars was higher, i would not consider getting an electric car, as the other cars in this price catagory simply do not meet my expectations or demands when it comes to range and usability / comfort.
Somewhere, in a dark Fremont office: A lawyer, an MBA, and an actuary discussed the risks of legacy battery pack fires, and decided that it's better to nerf than to accept 0.000000001% probability of failure.
Buy a Tesla they say. OK! /BuysNewModel3/ It'll be awesome they say! /OMG it is awesome. Yes, yes it is/ Thanks for all the great videos Bjorn!
How does the nerfed Tesla charge at non Tesla ccs2 chargers?
German Bratwurstwagen will never restricted the charging speed. That's not German Style.
myselfe I got also an old P85, I noticed if you drive the car "slow" by 120 km/h the consumtion is higher than if you drive around 140 km/h. if you are staying in the car and use the heating while charging it needs longer than calculated by the computer, I receive at the V3 Superchargers a higher charge that of the V2 or V1 Superchargers. I prefer the old look of the display
@@jazdan223 I love to drive of my own, tested Ap 1 to 3 so far in model S, X and 3 I would not want to have one. Especially in Germany the highway needs your attention. I would not let take the AP take control of my car. It would be some rare situations if I would use the AP, but for me not worth the enhanced price. Only my opinion. Many of course think otherwise.
If Tesla nerfed the 85Kwh battery pack there must be a safety reason involved. I bet fire risk/cell failure more likely on the pack with fast charging/high currents with aging . Better charge slower than burning the car...
Better to recall and fix it instead of crippling a long range cars that are meant and designed and bought for road trips. Thats the point. They are not cheap cars to be putting a bandaid.
Sounds like a warranty replacement should be done for such a serious defect, not a software patch top hide the problem. Horrifically bad precedent that they're getting away with this.
I think it's not /just/ the charging speed. How much does the 17% increase in Wh/km have on the number of charging stops?
My guess it increases the number of charges required! So not only is the P85 MF suffering from slow charging, it needs to carry out an extra charge too! What I'm thinking is that it's not just the one variable (slow charging) which slowed the 1000k to 11h50.
As a side-note, it would be interesting to see the "number of charges" and/or "energy used" in this sheeiiit too!
(I just realised that multiplying Wh/km by 1000 gives the energy used, so still 17% more then)
Did tesla slow down the charge speed of this car because of free supercharging?
No
A Fair comparison would be to compare the 2013 Model S with other 2013 EV's,for example the 2013 Nissan Leaf.
Comparing a 100k car vs a 30k car wasn't a fair comparison then and isn't one now... Unless you meant to compare degradation and change in charging speed for the new vs the old car.
@@BilldalSWE Yes, that's what I meant. And there weren't many EV models around back then..
The question is why did tesla do this ? Because the car charges for free ? Or because the battery is old and used and must charge slowly ?
A legendary Car in many respects
Can’t wait till the model s refresh and x and cyber truck
Kind of cold. Temperature 1 degrees. Just Norway things.
tbh i dont think thats that big of a drawback, in our gas car we drive to switzerland in like 10-11hours and thats around 930km, the stops dont matter, theres always someone who has to pee or theres a moment when we need to have lunch or breakfast
The compensation they are getting is free charging. That is what early tesla owners have. 🙂
Why was he supercharging at 32amps instead of 40amps?
That amp setting is for AC charging.
Well I think a degradation in charging speed isn't that bad, If it keeps the battery alive. VW payed compensation to their customers as they advertised an range improvement of 20% but it actually used up more power than the normal version. Tesla never advertised the charging speed. What would have been a better solution? Let the packs die or degrade? What's worse slower charging speed or higher degradation? I mean they could have replaced all batteries but looking at how batterie constrained their production is this would have cost close to a year of production (Probably somwhere around 200'000 packs I would guess).
In the end those cars were the first proper EV's and held many perks like free SC for life, but we can't expect them to keep up with cars produced 8 years later, with much higher budgets and all the knowledge gained from those old vehicles.
As a mechanic I rarely see a car that is over 8 years/ 300'000km and is working as good as a new one. They use up more oil and fuel, power is down etc.
I'm curios to see how other cars will age like the ioniq 5 that charges really fast. Hope the battery won't just degrade into oblivion.
We have come quite a long way in 8 years it seems.
This car has been made much worse as an EV.
Considering how old the car is that is actually really impreossive. And the car is actually not 6 but 8 years old if it's a 2013 Model S, isn't it? (notes in the sheet)
It does say 8 years in the sheet🤔
@@santerixdxd The battery is not the first, it was replaced.
@@santerixdxd Well I was stupid and looked at the upper result when making my comment :D To my defense, I was semi distracted with work while watching the video.
It indeed does say 8 year old car and I guess the result isn't as impressive as the one achieved 2019, but given the cold temperature it's still decent I guess.
Just for some perspective, how does the MF compare to any other 8 year old EV with over 240K km on its battery?
Oldest Nissan Leafs with same km go 30km on a single charge.
Legend car!