Your gain ( or trim) is set as a before the channel fader. PLF is used to set the mic input (making sure it doesn't overdrive the channel). Never set the faders to unity and use trim as a way of controlling the input ( that's the faders job)
I'm so glad you address the sound check musicians responsibility. So many times especially in churches I've had to deal with amateurs that although may play well, have no idea of why they're being asked to do a soundcheck. Most stand back and will play at a low level and then get up on the mic and the gain will clip, or vice versa. In a coffeehouse a big problem with this, some will get on a Mic that needs to be adjusted because it was set for someone else and they think if it worked for someone else it will work for them, refusing to do a proper sound check. When I work with most professional musicians thing just go smoothly with no arguments.
***** where is your video . i don't see it. Let me say it a again. It may not be perfect but he did something. What did you do to you disqualified to. You are all type.
Nice video! In my church, I give a workshop soon for this topic. The setup is digital (Soundcraft Si Series) and the most musicians or the leader have the aux control on the smartphone.. so the monitor is a little bit different (the setup is stored in the mixer anyway) so there are just little adjustments every week. However, to give an idea to build up a Show (that's how the setup is named on the Si) the video gives a good overview.
About acoustic guitar with piezo pick up, I get rid the piezo resonance by cutting between 3 and 4 kHz and boosting treble a little bit. Depending to the rest of the band, I cut below 100 Hz to below 500 Hz.
Nice video. Some observations: 1. Use a talk back mic. Yes! 2. Musicians: pay attention and don't noodle. Yes! 3. Would be nice to address, or mention here, execution of multiple monitor mixes. 4. Emphasize getting the line check done first. 5. Move through the musicians systematically. Yes! But in what order? Drums + bass + gt1 + gt2 + k + v2 + v1 or is it v1 + v2 + k + gt + gt + b + d? 6. Preacher/talker vs singers in the band? How to handle? 7. The musician cannot declare whether monitor mix and volume is okay until the band fires up a sound-check tune. So have a sound check tune. For establishing volume levels in monitors AFTER determining the mix in the monitors. This requires the musicians to be not noodling and paying attention and playing test levels when asked, and for all this to be done systematically.
6. Challenge accepted!!! Usually preachers, pastors, trend to control EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY, when the workship band stop singing. when re start, what instrument it's playing, the volume of it, control what's projecting in the screens, and so on. There is a "spiritual" justification for them: The Holy Spirit talks through the preacher and command what to do. Another question, in the most cases, a member of a workship band it's an amateur singer, guitar, drum player. His or her position in the band it's set by pastors, leaders of the church based not only in musical talent or a spirit of collaboration. Again, the "maturity" in spiritual businnes, the "revelations" of a pastor determines that "brother John or sister Sarah" is the right choice for sing in services...
Mike, point 5: I would love to start with the vocals, then guitars and drums last. But it often happens that the vocalists arrive last, while the band is already jamming away. You almost have to start over again.
Before I begin my comment(s) I would like to point out that I am currently using the Allen & Heath GL2400 (sells for under $1,000 used) and that the sound/mix I am achieving is of higher quality than other churches utilizing the Midas $4,000 mixer. I've tried to offer every detail that I believe to be important, and may add to this as individuals respond. Before you even begin! Run a CD through the system and make absolutely sure the CD sounds great. If you don't have a good ear for this, the results will be poor. You've got to know what good is, and adjust house EQ appropriately. I've done this CD check immediately following an experienced audio engineer's attempt to tune with a CD, and I had to make major corrections (he didn't understand?). If you don't listen to great sounding productions on a daily basis, how are you going to have a professional ear to know what good is? Don't rely on RTA, but only as a research tool, or second opinion. A more accurate (than RTA method) is to take one of the vocal mics, and set it up apx. 15 feet in front of the center of the stage, on a mic stand, and pointing toward the stage. Turn the volume up on this mic, and let it feedback/ring. Cut apx. 3-10 ringing frequencies out of your system. This will help the vocals to sound like the singer is standing right in front of you, a very natural sound/tone. This method tunes in the low mids, mids, high mids & high frequencies. The sub frequencies (below 100Hz) should be tuned with the kick & bass, or a Nashville recorded CD (something by producer Mutt Lange, Shania Twain is good). This method tunes the differences between 1) speaker; 2) room; 3) microphone. RTA only points out room peaks (if backed away far enough) and/or speaker system peaks... but does not address the combination vox mic used, room, & speakers. 1) I don't do a sound check by making all musicians/vocalists perform separately. I have them play a song together. Why? Musicians never play the same volume level when 'checking' as when rehearsing the song with others... so... don't waste your time setting gain structure with unrealistic performances. You will be correcting for the unrealistic performance once the song starts (you don't have time to do it twice). Additionally, with all musicians playing, and some instrument doesn't light up the LED on the board? 10 seconds into the first song and you want to visually scan all LED indicators per channel, making sure you've got a signal from everyone. Keep your channel testing/checking down to seconds, because you may need those 'extra' 3 minutes (you don't have) to replace a broken XLR cable. Set both monitors & input gain level during this monitor check. 2) Monitors first (although I will check to make sure my mains are working). I keep my main speakers turned off, and only have the band going through the monitors for the first 3 songs during practice. This solves about three problems: a) the musicians never play the same when doing the song, and when checking their amp/piano/guitar/vox, so don't make them play solo.. just have the entire band play a song; b) The band only running through the monitors allows you to hear how much the monitors are influencing your main mix, and you can keep it quiet accordingly. c) It is mandatory to walk up on stage and take a listen to what the musicians are hearing. Its always something I don't notice in the house, and this past week the lead vocalist was up on the mic (more than last week) and really loud, I turned her down a bit. Had I not gone up on stage, I would have overlooked this, she would have been backing off the mic, and the recording would have had all manner of background noise coming through her mic. 3) Once the monitors are set, and everyone agrees that they are good (give them an opportunity to respond you want them happy) you can then turn up the mains. 4) the first thing I do when I turn up the mains is to listen for anything that is unpleasing to the ear. I focus on the beauty of the tone, and EQ accordingly. Sometimes a vocalist will be closer to the mic than last week, and this can cause mic artifacts that are annoying to the listener, I go right in on these, and make EQ adjustments. 5) If an instrument either: out of tune, the acoustic player is using the wrong pick, or no pick at all.. or the performance is really bad.. I will keep that instrument lower in the mix, and not make it too noticeable. 6) I like to add reverb to the backing vocals, and keep the lead vocals dry. This is a general rule, and I do change it up from time to time. 7) Don't run your main outs at -10, or something way down the meter bridge. You will need to run your main L/R out through a compressor, and compressors like to be driven with adequate voltage/volume. It is better to keep the board at optimum gain structure (from 0 to +3dB) and cutting volume at the power amps, than to set the compressor's threshold to something like -30, in order for it to begin working. 8) you must understand how to use a compressor, and the attack is a vital component, If you set your main L/R compressor'a attack to 0, and are deep into the threshold ( -20 for example) you will kill all the high frequencies. If you set your attack at 30ms, you will be allowing the highs to pass. Adjust your compressor for how it makes the music FEEL, and not for any other reason. Whatever it takes to make the music FEEL wonderful/beautiful. Try everything until you get something that makes it FEEL wonderful/beautiful. All compressors are different, and some don't work at all when adjusting attack, so don't expect some ultimate setting. Pay attention to how the compressor makes the music feel, and try everything until you have the compressor interacting with the music in its most beneficial way. Tim Portland, Oregon USA
Before I watch the video, I will tell my views and experiences about this topic. Church can be anything between a historic room with a reverb time about 4 seconds to a modern church, where the acoustic is more like a cinema and all stages between. The old churches were built in times, where the reflections of wall, ceiling and floor were needed to make the preacher good audible and the organ sounds good. They are almost perfect, when the participants sings old hymns with organ accompaniment, but a challenge, when the music is more or less contemporary worship and praise, as Vineyard, Hillsongs. In the church, where I am member, we have our services in a cinema, that is nearly perfect for our sound. The church, where I was before, was built in the early 1980's, perfect for an acoustic choir, a challenge, when the band plays. I had a worship evening in an old church and used column speakers, but it wasn't easy to get a good sound. But one experience I made, the more reflections and reverb time, the more the need to use column speakers, in ear monitoring and electronic drums instead of acoustic ones. I did sound in a church with a cinema type acoustic but with traditional monitoring. And this influenced the sound in front of the stage, it was pretty hard to find the right sound, sometimes I got complaint about sound level and demonstrated, that it is from the monitor speakers. In the church, where I am now, we use in ear monitoring, this means, that the sound man will hear the speaker's sound only and the installed speakers is the normal cinema sound system, what ensures, that in the whole room may be almost the same level.
This helps me to understand things more simply. Shall be grateful if you could share how to cut air puffing sound into the mic from being produced into the speakers, apart from telling the speaker to change the mic placement. Thank you.
I might be doing it wrong but I would tend leave the mains on when setting a wedge monitor mix and also set them once gain structure is set and while everyone is playing together. My feeling is that the monitors should only supplement what the musicians are hearing directly from the instruments or cabs on stage, and what they hear spilling back from the mains. This give me the advantage of keeping the the monitor mixes at a lower volume as I'm only adding clarity to the instruments they need to hear. In my experience of doing it as suggested here I found that I end up fighting the monitors and ultimately turning them down anyway, often by request as once the mains come in the musicians are suddenly hearing too much and they hear their mix differently. Now this is likely only gonna make sense in a small to medium venue but that where I tend to be.
Do the TRS Monitor out jacks on the GL2400 "solo" a channel when the PFL button is engaged so that you could run studio monitor speakers from those monitor out jacks and check that one channel only. (For a recording studio type setup to isolate a channel through the control room speakers to check for problems, etc). Thanks...Gave you a sub. BTW: Well done video.
Ofori Enock my suggestion is plug in a microphone normally have the gain up but the fader down and then have the volume up in the monitor, that way the congregation doesn't hear you but the band does
Gain= sensitivity input Fader= volume to your bus, mains, aux, etc. I totally disagree using the gain as a fader or volume. Yamaha engineers help me with this question time ago
Gain first is needed to ensure no stage ends up with insufficient headroom. Any stage can clip or suffer from poor signal to noise ratio if the gain is not distributed throughout the signal path. Setting the input gain as high as possible to maintain, say a 15db headroom that allows trimming on channels where a band of EQ is boosted. Avoid excessive boost in any one band of the eq by cutting the other bands to maintain at least 15 db headroom in the EQ section.
That method is called the "Unity Gain Method" and is often accepted by many well know, renowned FOH engineers. I use that method only for vocal mics....never on instruments....and NEVER attempt to mix using the head amp (gain) setting during a show because that also changes the way other processing components such as gate and compression function.
Get trained by a pro that knows how to talk to you understanding that you are a beginner, and doesn't use "I'm a super smart sound engineer" speak. I get paid to train people and they do very well with my sessions.
Benjamin Mwita the thing to remember is the most church setups are about sound reinforcement, i.e. Supplementing the sound already heard in the room. The key to this is knowing when something doesn't need reinforcing, basically if it's already loud enough keep the fader down. This is also where the art of mixing come in, in that scenario I would be riding the fader (or ready to ride the fader) as I watch them and anticipate they're fluctuation in volume as I'm sure half the problem will be when they get quiet and no one then hears them.
Taking out some bass might stop him from red-lining. You might also have to add more gain and turn down the fader. That's what worked when I did sound at my former church.
Also, give them more volume in their monitors and not the house main, that way he/she will hear themselves thoroughly through the speaker closest to them and everyone else listening on the mains will be spared
I used to only do the gain first approach all the time almost religiously. It is indeed the best way in terms of the gain structure. However, in reality a lot of times venues do not have the 31 channel EQ's connected to the mixer to tame the feedback. Also, in a lot of situations you do not get the luxury of labeling each channels. In these cases you have to do the fader first approach. It's not as bad as it seems to be. In fact, a lot of pro live sound engineers (eg. Dave Rat) uses the fader first approach for the gain structure.
What advantage is there to having the wrong preamp gain set? There is only one proper preamp setting: peaking around 0 (possibly more on a high head room board). Now, you mention feedback... turn down your aux send or channel fader. (and/or use eq) The mic gain is already set and doesnt, in itself, cause feedback.
There's no advantage in terms of the sound quality, that's for sure. The only 'advantages' for the fader first approach I would say are the speed and convenience, because you can eliminate the step where you set the fader to the right level. You set all the faders to zero then set the gain to the right volume. You lose some of the clarity in audio, yes, but like I mentioned above, in practice, very often you get half an hour to set up all your gears and instruments, don't have the time to rehearse, and have no access to the equipment that can tame the feedback or dynamics, such as 31-band EQ or compressors. In this scenario the only way you can do to make sure that the feedback won't be an issue is to conservatively set the input sensitivity so it won't pick up sound as much, and possibly pull down the bus and master fader. I'm not really fond of this method, either, since it does not offer the optimal gain structure, and it does a mediocre job at best, but it works, and the audience won't notice the difference. Having said that, If I was given 3 hours for the setup time and a couple of 31-band EQ's I would choose the gain first method any day of the week.....
Wul, regarding feedback: Lets say you set the trim, for a vocal, where the vox is hitting 0. Now, you set your fader to whatever sounds good, except now it's feeding back. Without eq, you'll have to pull down the fader or turn down the trim. I say that, in terms of feedback, these two options are exactly the same. I say that the trim has no more affect on feedback than the fader. I say that the trim doesnt really control the 'sensitivity' of the mic. What say you?
All of this is wrong. When mixing audio, first set the gain structure of the PA, EQ the PA and then start cleaning up your mix by plugging frequencies away from channels to get the sound to cut through.
+David Jaycox Yes, I'm on that page. It is really odd how many systems have never been set with a simple CD player, and some good music. Ran sound in a club within the past month, and it was improperly set. The owner used an RTA mic (those are useless) .. you've got to use music CDs, and get that kick to thump you in the chest. The RTA won't know about any of this, and it amazes me how the EQ of the RTA is a little here a little there, and when you put the CD in, there's no sub frequencies. I don't know what the TRA designers were/are thinking, but those things are useless. Additionally, I was at a different club set up, the guy setting up the system had 30+ years pro experience (just like me) he set the RTA, and I turned up the CD music... no thump in the chest. We went to the Drive Rack PA, and I had him delay the subs 2ms, and make sure the X-over was keeping things clean. The RTA doesn't alert you to any of this. When the RTA did its thing (whatever it does) I then made the system sound better. Again, you've got to use a CD, and a CD player, not some .mp3 nonsense. And for God's sake, don't rely on the RTA. My first experience with one of those things, the PA owner had a white noise going through the system. I EQed it completely flat. I then informed the PA owner that we were pushing way too much sub frequencies into the system to get the noise flat. I was against doing this (I was apx 21 years old at the time... 30 years ago).... anyway, the sub speakers blew, and he kind'a thought that was funny, I sure didn't think it was funny, I thought it was really stupid. It was this experience that taught me about room tuning, and that you've got to use intelligence, and rationality to make a system sound great. In conclusion, I know of one touring engineer that uses a CD player to get things in the ballpark quickly, and that's good enough supporting evidence for me.
David Jaycox yes but this isn't about mixing, it's about sound check. To me running a cd and setting eq is room setup, then I sound check and mixing is what I do during the performance. Three separate tasks but all of equal importance.
vDosc UV7 I agree with you. For a beginner analog is better. Simple and straight to the point. I use an analog on my small scale gigs. I'd much rather still though use my Allen and Heath because I KNOW it and I can use it in my sleep. As time goes by it all comes down to personal preference man. I started out on a digital mixer. I think it was good in the sense that, you get to see what you're doing in WAY more detail. For example, on digital from the get go you know exactly how your ratios and thresholds are setup up..down to the digit, versus Having a vague idea of your settings on analog. A digital user will tell you for example the exact frequency needed to the boosted or cut because he has been exposed from the jump on how it should be. So sometimes the easiest way to learn something is not always the best. This stuff wasn't meant to be easy 😅, we simply just pick a struggle I disagree however when you say no one's going to hear the difference🤔. You can do a whole lot more that'll "make a difference" with digital mixers. That's just facts. Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion.
I just had to lol...."Effective Soundcheck in Church" do you have some wierd strange device that makes a church different to any other room??? Has there been some wierd blessing done on the acoustics of the church??? Really...i would like to know what the difference is in mixing in a "Church". Ive never seen any publication/video or evidence that mixing in a church has totally different rules of audio. Is there maybe some satanic frequencies that your tuning out??? Not a bad vid though....maybe the title just needs to be changed.
There's nothing special about the building etc. It would seem the instructor is a Christian? God forbid you learn sound engineering from someone who may or may not believe something different than you. Lol
I believe his audience is churches because a qualified sound engineer already knows all of the above. Churches mostly have volunteers who handle the sound responsibilities and are not professionally trained/taught this stuff. Even the musicians are most of time volunteers who don't possess this basic knowledge. I believe an effective sound check outside of a church environment like a gig or event is almost always done due to a professional background and experience of the sound engineer and the musicians.
@@AFCUjstrick I don't think "bother" is the proper description. It's an unneeded misrepresentation in an attempt to differentiate a "church" from a standard building or venue, when (ironically), non exists. Annoying or misleading would be a closer , more reasonable word choice don't ya think? How does the title "How to EQ a Synagogue" sound? I think you got it now. Cheers.
@@brandinlea7137 maybe a better title would be "How to run an effective soundcheck as a volunteer technician with amateur musicians such as may be found in a moderately-sized house of worship." The point isn't the building, the point is the (usually) non-professional environment where the technician often ends up frantically trying to run through all these settings while the musicians just plow through their setlist. If he's lucky, he might get to do some actual mixing as they're wrapping up the last song. (Ask me how I know.) At most other venues, the musicians already know all this.
Your gain ( or trim) is set as a before the channel fader. PLF is used to set the mic input (making sure it doesn't overdrive the channel). Never set the faders to unity and use trim as a way of controlling the input ( that's the faders job)
I'm so glad you address the sound check musicians responsibility. So many times especially in churches I've had to deal with amateurs that although may play well, have no idea of why they're being asked to do a soundcheck. Most stand back and will play at a low level and then get up on the mic and the gain will clip, or vice versa. In a coffeehouse a big problem with this, some will get on a Mic that needs to be adjusted because it was set for someone else and they think if it worked for someone else it will work for them, refusing to do a proper sound check. When I work with most professional musicians thing just go smoothly with no arguments.
thank you so much! I am learning to do the sound for my church using this very same sound board
Alot of churches need to watch this video.
LaJuan Hughes yes they do, then do absolutely nothing he says to do. Perfect example of what not to do when setting up a sound system.
David Jaycox maybe so but some churches don't have a clue. Some churches have a bunch of tweaker. This a least a start. Now. where is your video?
***** where is your video . i don't see it. Let me say it a again. It may not be perfect but he did something. What did you do to you disqualified to. You are all type.
LaJuan Hughes I'm learning how to run a sound system similar to this one for church services on Sundays wish me luck
I'm learning how to run the sound board at our church haven't really done anything yet just traniee right now
Thank you I gonna have to learn the sound board for youth group worship
This Helps out alot especially because where using the same board at our church, will use this as a reference when setting up next time.
Always love seeing the journey of other entrepreneurs, keep doing what you're doing! 🚀
Nice video! In my church, I give a workshop soon for this topic. The setup is digital (Soundcraft Si Series) and the most musicians or the leader have the aux control on the smartphone.. so the monitor is a little bit different (the setup is stored in the mixer anyway) so there are just little adjustments every week. However, to give an idea to build up a Show (that's how the setup is named on the Si) the video gives a good overview.
We need this 💯
About acoustic guitar with piezo pick up, I get rid the piezo resonance by cutting between 3 and 4 kHz and boosting treble a little bit. Depending to the rest of the band, I cut below 100 Hz to below 500 Hz.
shouldnt we be gsin staging first bfore bringing up the volume fader?
Thank you man , you are much helpful
Nice video. Some observations:
1. Use a talk back mic. Yes!
2. Musicians: pay attention and don't noodle. Yes!
3. Would be nice to address, or mention here, execution of multiple monitor mixes.
4. Emphasize getting the line check done first.
5. Move through the musicians systematically. Yes! But in what order? Drums + bass + gt1 + gt2 + k + v2 + v1 or is it v1 + v2 + k + gt + gt + b + d?
6. Preacher/talker vs singers in the band? How to handle?
7. The musician cannot declare whether monitor mix and volume is okay until the band fires up a sound-check tune. So have a sound check tune. For establishing volume levels in monitors AFTER determining the mix in the monitors. This requires the musicians to be not noodling and paying attention and playing test levels when asked, and for all this to be done systematically.
Thank you so much
6. Challenge accepted!!! Usually preachers, pastors, trend to control EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY, when the workship band stop singing. when re start, what instrument it's playing, the volume of it, control what's projecting in the screens, and so on. There is a "spiritual" justification for them: The Holy Spirit talks through the preacher and command what to do. Another question, in the most cases, a member of a workship band it's an amateur singer, guitar, drum player. His or her position in the band it's set by pastors, leaders of the church based not only in musical talent or a spirit of collaboration. Again, the "maturity" in spiritual businnes, the "revelations" of a pastor determines that "brother John or sister Sarah" is the right choice for sing in services...
Mike, point 5: I would love to start with the vocals, then guitars and drums last. But it often happens that the vocalists arrive last, while the band is already jamming away. You almost have to start over again.
About monitors, I make not the monitor louder, when one musician complains, I set the other ones lower.
Before I begin my comment(s) I would like to point out that I am currently using the Allen & Heath GL2400 (sells for under $1,000 used) and that the sound/mix I am achieving is of higher quality than other churches utilizing the Midas $4,000 mixer. I've tried to offer every detail that I believe to be important, and may add to this as individuals respond.
Before you even begin! Run a CD through the system and make absolutely sure the CD sounds great. If you don't have a good ear for this, the results will be poor. You've got to know what good is, and adjust house EQ appropriately. I've done this CD check immediately following an experienced audio engineer's attempt to tune with a CD, and I had to make major corrections (he didn't understand?). If you don't listen to great sounding productions on a daily basis, how are you going to have a professional ear to know what good is? Don't rely on RTA, but only as a research tool, or second opinion. A more accurate (than RTA method) is to take one of the vocal mics, and set it up apx. 15 feet in front of the center of the stage, on a mic stand, and pointing toward the stage. Turn the volume up on this mic, and let it feedback/ring. Cut apx. 3-10 ringing frequencies out of your system. This will help the vocals to sound like the singer is standing right in front of you, a very natural sound/tone. This method tunes in the low mids, mids, high mids & high frequencies. The sub frequencies (below 100Hz) should be tuned with the kick & bass, or a Nashville recorded CD (something by producer Mutt Lange, Shania Twain is good). This method tunes the differences between 1) speaker; 2) room; 3) microphone. RTA only points out room peaks (if backed away far enough) and/or speaker system peaks... but does not address the combination vox mic used, room, & speakers.
1) I don't do a sound check by making all musicians/vocalists perform separately. I have them play a song together. Why? Musicians never play the same volume level when 'checking' as when rehearsing the song with others... so... don't waste your time setting gain structure with unrealistic performances. You will be correcting for the unrealistic performance once the song starts (you don't have time to do it twice). Additionally, with all musicians playing, and some instrument doesn't light up the LED on the board? 10 seconds into the first song and you want to visually scan all LED indicators per channel, making sure you've got a signal from everyone. Keep your channel testing/checking down to seconds, because you may need those 'extra' 3 minutes (you don't have) to replace a broken XLR cable. Set both monitors & input gain level during this monitor check.
2) Monitors first (although I will check to make sure my mains are working). I keep my main speakers turned off, and only have the band going through the monitors for the first 3 songs during practice. This solves about three problems: a) the musicians never play the same when doing the song, and when checking their amp/piano/guitar/vox, so don't make them play solo.. just have the entire band play a song; b) The band only running through the monitors allows you to hear how much the monitors are influencing your main mix, and you can keep it quiet accordingly. c) It is mandatory to walk up on stage and take a listen to what the musicians are hearing. Its always something I don't notice in the house, and this past week the lead vocalist was up on the mic (more than last week) and really loud, I turned her down a bit. Had I not gone up on stage, I would have overlooked this, she would have been backing off the mic, and the recording would have had all manner of background noise coming through her mic.
3) Once the monitors are set, and everyone agrees that they are good (give them an opportunity to respond you want them happy) you can then turn up the mains.
4) the first thing I do when I turn up the mains is to listen for anything that is unpleasing to the ear. I focus on the beauty of the tone, and EQ accordingly. Sometimes a vocalist will be closer to the mic than last week, and this can cause mic artifacts that are annoying to the listener, I go right in on these, and make EQ adjustments.
5) If an instrument either: out of tune, the acoustic player is using the wrong pick, or no pick at all.. or the performance is really bad.. I will keep that instrument lower in the mix, and not make it too noticeable.
6) I like to add reverb to the backing vocals, and keep the lead vocals dry. This is a general rule, and I do change it up from time to time.
7) Don't run your main outs at -10, or something way down the meter bridge. You will need to run your main L/R out through a compressor, and compressors like to be driven with adequate voltage/volume. It is better to keep the board at optimum gain structure (from 0 to +3dB) and cutting volume at the power amps, than to set the compressor's threshold to something like -30, in order for it to begin working.
8) you must understand how to use a compressor, and the attack is a vital component, If you set your main L/R compressor'a attack to 0, and are deep into the threshold ( -20 for example) you will kill all the high frequencies. If you set your attack at 30ms, you will be allowing the highs to pass. Adjust your compressor for how it makes the music FEEL, and not for any other reason. Whatever it takes to make the music FEEL wonderful/beautiful. Try everything until you get something that makes it FEEL wonderful/beautiful. All compressors are different, and some don't work at all when adjusting attack, so don't expect some ultimate setting. Pay attention to how the compressor makes the music feel, and try everything until you have the compressor interacting with the music in its most beneficial way.
Tim
Portland, Oregon USA
All dem replies
I use white noise instead of a CD. Waayyy more accurate for FOH. Then use a GEQ to pick out the frequencies you don't like
What a load of complete bullshit
@@farmtech8976 Envy much?
@@TimKaseyMythHealer Envy what exactly?
Excellent. Very useful. I will be using this with my sound team at church. Thanks!
Before I watch the video, I will tell my views and experiences about this topic.
Church can be anything between a historic room with a reverb time about 4 seconds to a modern church, where the acoustic is more like a cinema and all stages between.
The old churches were built in times, where the reflections of wall, ceiling and floor were needed to make the preacher good audible and the organ sounds good. They are almost perfect, when the participants sings old hymns with organ accompaniment, but a challenge, when the music is more or less contemporary worship and praise, as Vineyard, Hillsongs.
In the church, where I am member, we have our services in a cinema, that is nearly perfect for our sound. The church, where I was before, was built in the early 1980's, perfect for an acoustic choir, a challenge, when the band plays. I had a worship evening in an old church and used column speakers, but it wasn't easy to get a good sound.
But one experience I made, the more reflections and reverb time, the more the need to use column speakers, in ear monitoring and electronic drums instead of acoustic ones.
I did sound in a church with a cinema type acoustic but with traditional monitoring. And this influenced the sound in front of the stage, it was pretty hard to find the right sound, sometimes I got complaint about sound level and demonstrated, that it is from the monitor speakers.
In the church, where I am now, we use in ear monitoring, this means, that the sound man will hear the speaker's sound only and the installed speakers is the normal cinema sound system, what ensures, that in the whole room may be almost the same level.
i love the teaching
Thanks you for your explanation
Do more videos
Thankx for experimentation i will do it
This helps me to understand things more simply. Shall be grateful if you could share how to cut air puffing sound into the mic from being produced into the speakers, apart from telling the speaker to change the mic placement.
Thank you.
I wanna be a sound technician when I grow up
I have ran that board and a big pro 9 sound board
I might be doing it wrong but I would tend leave the mains on when setting a wedge monitor mix and also set them once gain structure is set and while everyone is playing together. My feeling is that the monitors should only supplement what the musicians are hearing directly from the instruments or cabs on stage, and what they hear spilling back from the mains. This give me the advantage of keeping the the monitor mixes at a lower volume as I'm only adding clarity to the instruments they need to hear.
In my experience of doing it as suggested here I found that I end up fighting the monitors and ultimately turning them down anyway, often by request as once the mains come in the musicians are suddenly hearing too much and they hear their mix differently. Now this is likely only gonna make sense in a small to medium venue but that where I tend to be.
You are correct, in fact no Professional engineer would ever mix mons before FOH.
Do the TRS Monitor out jacks on the GL2400 "solo" a channel when the PFL button is engaged so that you could run studio monitor speakers from those monitor out jacks and check that one channel only. (For a recording studio type setup to isolate a channel through the control room speakers to check for problems, etc). Thanks...Gave you a sub. BTW: Well done video.
Great video mate ! Thanks
How to connect Effect processor to monitors in analog consol ?
How to mix effect for vocal
I've learnt a lot thanks very much
My next question is : how to set a TalkBack Mic
Ofori Enock my suggestion is plug in a microphone normally have the gain up but the fader down and then have the volume up in the monitor, that way the congregation doesn't hear you but the band does
Lt Army thanks
Nice one boss
Gain= sensitivity input
Fader= volume to your bus, mains, aux, etc.
I totally disagree using the gain as a fader or volume.
Yamaha engineers help me with this question time ago
Gain first is needed to ensure no stage ends up with insufficient headroom. Any stage can clip or suffer from poor signal to noise ratio if the gain is not distributed throughout the signal path. Setting the input gain as high as possible to maintain, say a 15db headroom that allows trimming on channels where a band of EQ is boosted. Avoid excessive boost in any one band of the eq by cutting the other bands to maintain at least 15 db headroom in the EQ section.
That method is called the "Unity Gain Method" and is often accepted by many well know, renowned FOH engineers. I use that method only for vocal mics....never on instruments....and NEVER attempt to mix using the head amp (gain) setting during a show because that also changes the way other processing components such as gate and compression function.
can we connect Bass Guitar directly in the Mixer Board?
You can, If you use a DI ( Direct-In Box)
Useful tutor video..
i'm using a yamaha MGP32X
I got a question apart from sound check, which is the better way to connect the instrument to the mixer?
@vDosc UV7 you better make a video of yourself and do exactly what you was saying!!! If you can't do it SHUT YOUR BIG MOUTH!!□□□
Thanx bro
good
The guys in my church use a Allen& heath pa20 mixer. Fader always set to -5 and then they use the gain as a volume knob.
Am I the only eleven year old that does this
I like the idea of a step process, Great video. Any first timer can do this???
Assuming you know what you are doing beyond the framework here then yes. And if you need help it is all there in our Sound Tech course!
What is top 10 best 24 channel analog mixer for church use? pls help
sonic systems idk that there's a best I'd just get one that you can use I'd go analog
what would you recommend a beginner that knows literally nothing about sound boards?
Hi Andy
The DVD set (you can get it as downloads as well) is designed for both beginners and more experienced sound techs.
Get trained by a pro that knows how to talk to you understanding that you are a beginner, and doesn't use "I'm a super smart sound engineer" speak. I get paid to train people and they do very well with my sessions.
and lastly maybe take off the PFL
nice video
Thank you for your lesson but help me to EQ a shouting pastor
You can't, you can only turn them down. I've had people where I've turned their mic off and no one noticed.
Benjamin Mwita the thing to remember is the most church setups are about sound reinforcement, i.e. Supplementing the sound already heard in the room. The key to this is knowing when something doesn't need reinforcing, basically if it's already loud enough keep the fader down. This is also where the art of mixing come in, in that scenario I would be riding the fader (or ready to ride the fader) as I watch them and anticipate they're fluctuation in volume as I'm sure half the problem will be when they get quiet and no one then hears them.
Taking out some bass might stop him from red-lining. You might also have to add more gain and turn down the fader. That's what worked when I did sound at my former church.
Compressor?
Also, give them more volume in their monitors and not the house main, that way he/she will hear themselves thoroughly through the speaker closest to them and everyone else listening on the mains will be spared
Set gain first then fader, Not fader then gain. Why do so many (so called) engineers do this
+Thomas Poole Because you can't hear the gain change when you have the fader turned off.
I used to only do the gain first approach all the time almost religiously. It is indeed the best way in terms of the gain structure. However, in reality a lot of times venues do not have the 31 channel EQ's connected to the mixer to tame the feedback. Also, in a lot of situations you do not get the luxury of labeling each channels. In these cases you have to do the fader first approach. It's not as bad as it seems to be. In fact, a lot of pro live sound engineers (eg. Dave Rat) uses the fader first approach for the gain structure.
What advantage is there to having the wrong preamp gain set? There is only one proper preamp setting: peaking around 0 (possibly more on a high head room board). Now, you mention feedback... turn down your aux send or channel fader. (and/or use eq) The mic gain is already set and doesnt, in itself, cause feedback.
There's no advantage in terms of the sound quality, that's for sure. The only 'advantages' for the fader first approach I would say are the speed and convenience, because you can eliminate the step where you set the fader to the right level. You set all the faders to zero then set the gain to the right volume. You lose some of the clarity in audio, yes, but like I mentioned above, in practice, very often you get half an hour to set up all your gears and instruments, don't have the time to rehearse, and have no access to the equipment that can tame the feedback or dynamics, such as 31-band EQ or compressors. In this scenario the only way you can do to make sure that the feedback won't be an issue is to conservatively set the input sensitivity so it won't pick up sound as much, and possibly pull down the bus and master fader. I'm not really fond of this method, either, since it does not offer the optimal gain structure, and it does a mediocre job at best, but it works, and the audience won't notice the difference.
Having said that, If I was given 3 hours for the setup time and a couple of 31-band EQ's I would choose the gain first method any day of the week.....
Wul, regarding feedback: Lets say you set the trim, for a vocal, where the vox is hitting 0. Now, you set your fader to whatever sounds good, except now it's feeding back. Without eq, you'll have to pull down the fader or turn down the trim. I say that, in terms of feedback, these two options are exactly the same. I say that the trim has no more affect on feedback than the fader. I say that the trim doesnt really control the 'sensitivity' of the mic. What say you?
All of this is wrong. When mixing audio, first set the gain structure of the PA, EQ the PA and then start cleaning up your mix by plugging frequencies away from channels to get the sound to cut through.
+David Jaycox Yes, I'm on that page. It is really odd how many systems have never been set with a simple CD player, and some good music. Ran sound in a club within the past month, and it was improperly set. The owner used an RTA mic (those are useless) .. you've got to use music CDs, and get that kick to thump you in the chest. The RTA won't know about any of this, and it amazes me how the EQ of the RTA is a little here a little there, and when you put the CD in, there's no sub frequencies. I don't know what the TRA designers were/are thinking, but those things are useless. Additionally, I was at a different club set up, the guy setting up the system had 30+ years pro experience (just like me) he set the RTA, and I turned up the CD music... no thump in the chest. We went to the Drive Rack PA, and I had him delay the subs 2ms, and make sure the X-over was keeping things clean. The RTA doesn't alert you to any of this. When the RTA did its thing (whatever it does) I then made the system sound better. Again, you've got to use a CD, and a CD player, not some .mp3 nonsense. And for God's sake, don't rely on the RTA. My first experience with one of those things, the PA owner had a white noise going through the system. I EQed it completely flat. I then informed the PA owner that we were pushing way too much sub frequencies into the system to get the noise flat. I was against doing this (I was apx 21 years old at the time... 30 years ago).... anyway, the sub speakers blew, and he kind'a thought that was funny, I sure didn't think it was funny, I thought it was really stupid. It was this experience that taught me about room tuning, and that you've got to use intelligence, and rationality to make a system sound great. In conclusion, I know of one touring engineer that uses a CD player to get things in the ballpark quickly, and that's good enough supporting evidence for me.
David Jaycox yes but this isn't about mixing, it's about sound check. To me running a cd and setting eq is room setup, then I sound check and mixing is what I do during the performance. Three separate tasks but all of equal importance.
Im nine and im inchage of sone check.
Step one : get a digital mixer
vDosc UV7 why not?😂🤔...it's just better. And yes I started with analog
vDosc UV7 I agree with you. For a beginner analog is better. Simple and straight to the point. I use an analog on my small scale gigs. I'd much rather still though use my Allen and Heath because I KNOW it and I can use it in my sleep. As time goes by it all comes down to personal preference man. I started out on a digital mixer. I think it was good in the sense that, you get to see what you're doing in WAY more detail. For example, on digital from the get go you know exactly how your ratios and thresholds are setup up..down to the digit, versus Having a vague idea of your settings on analog. A digital user will tell you for example the exact frequency needed to the boosted or cut because he has been exposed from the jump on how it should be. So sometimes the easiest way to learn something is not always the best. This stuff wasn't meant to be easy 😅, we simply just pick a struggle
I disagree however when you say no one's going to hear the difference🤔. You can do a whole lot more that'll "make a difference" with digital mixers. That's just facts.
Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion.
vDosc UV7 cheers 👊🏾🙏🏾, all the best for today's service
I just had to lol...."Effective Soundcheck in Church" do you have some wierd strange device that makes a church different to any other room??? Has there been some wierd blessing done on the acoustics of the church??? Really...i would like to know what the difference is in mixing in a "Church". Ive never seen any publication/video or evidence that mixing in a church has totally different rules of audio. Is there maybe some satanic frequencies that your tuning out??? Not a bad vid though....maybe the title just needs to be changed.
There's nothing special about the building etc. It would seem the instructor is a Christian? God forbid you learn sound engineering from someone who may or may not believe something different than you. Lol
I believe his audience is churches because a qualified sound engineer already knows all of the above. Churches mostly have volunteers who handle the sound responsibilities and are not professionally trained/taught this stuff. Even the musicians are most of time volunteers who don't possess this basic knowledge. I believe an effective sound check outside of a church environment like a gig or event is almost always done due to a professional background and experience of the sound engineer and the musicians.
This really bothers you?
@@AFCUjstrick I don't think "bother" is the proper description. It's an unneeded misrepresentation in an attempt to differentiate a "church" from a standard building or venue, when (ironically), non exists. Annoying or misleading would be a closer , more reasonable word choice don't ya think? How does the title "How to EQ a Synagogue" sound? I think you got it now. Cheers.
@@brandinlea7137 maybe a better title would be "How to run an effective soundcheck as a volunteer technician with amateur musicians such as may be found in a moderately-sized house of worship." The point isn't the building, the point is the (usually) non-professional environment where the technician often ends up frantically trying to run through all these settings while the musicians just plow through their setlist. If he's lucky, he might get to do some actual mixing as they're wrapping up the last song. (Ask me how I know.) At most other venues, the musicians already know all this.
That’s NOT how to properly set the Gain: “until it sounds right”. Bad, bad, bad.
If god is so powerful, why can't he hear without a fucking sound system ??
The sound system isn't so God can hear. It's so the congregation can hear.
Gotta laugh at church "techs"
Why? They are for the most part volunteers (without a technical background) that step up to fill the role when no one else does.