In it`s defense,I must just say,that in 1975,my grandmother bought me a brand new post 64 Mod 70 in 308.With it I have shot everything from steenbuck to eland and not had a moments problem with it,using the nice issued Williams open sights.
One of the most comfortable stocks of all time - the post-64 Model 70 - the high iron sights are on instantly. I have the identical rifle in .308; excellent rifle.
Your videos are top notch. No obnoxious intros, no hoopla, just straight up information presented very well. I'll often find your videos when considering purchasing a rifle. Needless to say, you've given valuable perspective on a few, including the model 70. Thanks!
One thing people don't realize is a major reason Winchester had to cut costs in 1964 is because of the Defense Dept's. abrupt cancellation of all (including Winchester's), M-14 contracts the year before. As some people know, the M-14 program had a very bad start at both Winchester and Harrington & Richardson, but by 1963, almost all the problems had been solved and both Winchester and H & R were looking forward to many years of profitable production to recoup their big start-up costs. Obviously, that never happened.
I have a 1978 Winchester model 70 XTR 30-06. It shoots half inch groups at 100 yards with the old Redfield wide field see through scope set up. I bought it at a pawnshop for next to nothing. So I can tell you from experience that the post 64 rifles are not as bad as you’re making them out to be. Fit and finish is nice, it is a very accurate rifle and operates as it should with no hiccups ever. The pre 64’s were awesome don’t get me wrong but there is nothing wrong with the post 64’s from the late 70’s and early 80’s. From what I’ve read the XTR version came out in 1977. The extra was meant to improve quality control and fit and finish of the rifle. I love mine.
A friend of my dad's had the same rifle. I refinished the stock in 84 and dad glass bedded the barrel and did some trigger work on it. We had some 150gr silver tips laying around so we took it to the range to sight it in. We DID NOT want to give that sucker back. It was a shooter. Three rounds in the same hole damn near at a 100 yards and 5 shot groups 5/8ths or under. I had a pre 64 in 270 that I hunted with that would do the same thing but I never could bring myself to glass bed it,didn't want to ruin the value. That man hunted deer,elk and moose with it until he passed it on to his son who still does. He reloaded 150 and 180 nossler partitions for it and took a lot of game with it. You've got a great rifle and it's a blessing to go in the field with one you can have confidence in.
It’s a great video, no doubt. My only complaint is that there’s NO pot smoking like Hickok45 and his Model 70 review/shooting. Ha ha ha ha. Love my Push Feed Model 70 .22-250 Sporter for coyotes and groundhogs. Peace Be To Journey!
Excellent video and information, thank you so much! I have a pre 64 300 H&H that my grandfather gave me when I started hunting. He always told me it was a valuable rifle. its not pretty, the barrel has patches of worn bluing, the stock has scratches, dings and is losing its finish. However its function is flawless. Its filled countless tags for him as well as several for me. It wouldn't be worth much to someone else but its worth the world to me
Chris my son has two pre 64s 257 Robert's and a 25.06. Both 🍒. He got them from his great grandfather. They both have old scopes. They had to be drilled and taped for scopes. The 300 HH is worth more i think. So you have a gem. Looking to get his first buck this year with one of them.
Mike as always a great video I personally feel that the post 64 winchester got an unjust wrap.they weren't on par with the pre 64 but they were great riflesfully on par with the rem 700 Thanks for posting
This was an amazing video thank you! I wasn't aware of the relationship between the 1917, the rem 700 and how it influenced the Winchester design in 64. I am a Mauser nut and just picked up a Birmingham parker hale in .270 it seems to have a Santa Barbra commercial receiver with a beautiful rolled over stock, and iron sights with a Burris scope mounted. I would love for you to do a video on the Parker Hale's if you so desire. Your videos and knowledge on all of these great old guns should be preserved!
Thank you peanut3050 - your Parker Hale is best kept secret - one of the finest bolt guns out there - yet priced below what the market value should be - for who knows what reason. Good on you for picking one up!
I just acquired a custom pre 64 in 308 Norma mag, with no serial numbers, just 308 norma stamped on the barrel. It is slightly different than my 63 30 06. Looking for ways to identify manufacture date. Any ideas?
Thanks so much for this video. First time I saw a pre-64 Winchester against a post 64 I wondered why anyone would opt for the pre-64?? Until I got my hands on it to put rounds down range. Beauty on the pre-64 goes beyond skin deep. The Rifleman's rifle indeed.
Really enjoyed this video. Mine is a 1946, in .30-06, wearing a Weaver C-6 glass. One would be hard pressed to find a more beautiful and more perfect rifle than the pre-64’s.
My 70 was made in1948 in 300 H&H super grade long barrel. Excellent condition with scope and rings from same year. It has wide built in sling swivels. Raised cheek piece checkered walnut with black for-end tip.
My dad gave me my first rifle when I was 12, I came home, my gun rack was mounted and I had my Ithaca 20 Ga single shot and my Winchester Model 70 in 30.06. He told me it was an "original" model. Had no clue what that meant, but as I recently started researching, it turns out the SN puts it being built in 1961. I want to mount a scope on it (it had a vintage peep sight on it). I did not like shooting it because it is so light and the recoil is a beast, but even with peep sights at 100 yds, this rifle is so accurate.
Thank you for making this and many other very nice videos. Your knowledge of firearms is tremendous. Your personality also Shines through in your videos. You’re very likable person
One thing that struck me on my pre 64 model 70 was the knurling at the scope base mounts. That they would take the machining time and cost to do that on a production rifle. And so much hand fitting work that went into old firearms.
I have a 1947 pre 64 30-06 with a six power fixed weaver scope and tip over scope mounts . I hunt at least one day out of every deer season with it . Great rifle!
Hi Travis. That is a rifle to keep; they hold their value and if Winchester changes/discontinues the 70 again - the pre-64's go up again. Thanks for writing.
Ahhh. You bring up a sad episode in my gunning history. Dad had a Winchester bolt action that a local perfectionist gunsmith had matched a barrel out of several he tried to the action. A beautiful 30.06. When I turned 14 I was a dedicated deer hunter and my much older mentor had an in with the Winchester area rep. So hunting season was coming up, I had worked all summer and accumulated the grand total of $114. I had a model 94 lever action, a fine rifle but the action was too complicated to strip after a day out in the temperate rainforest. So I wanted a bolt Winchester no question. Hunting season was a month away and my friend could get one wholesale for my $114. My choice was to wait an indeterminate time for one of the old stock featherweight Model 70s or buy the right now 1964 version (and this was 1964). He could get either for the same price! Well my patience being what it is I opted for the 64 model. I still have it but every time I look at it I think that could have been a pre 64 featherweight. Since leaves, pineneedles etc got in the 'free floating' barrel I was introduced to Acra Glass that same year. I also have experienced the bolt when on full safe and sling carried in the brush dropping out of the action. Long odds but it still happened. I have also had a case jam in the chamber after firing that needed a gunsmith to remove. None of those things ever happened in a lifetime of shooting for Dad with the old Winchester and it continued on flawlessly with me and on to my son. So although I have a long long history with my .243 Winchester and wouldn't part with it it just isn't near the same quality. It will shoot I have to say. I handloaded for it and achieved easily 3/4" groups off the bench at 100 yds. But I still look over the fence at the pre 64 with longing! It was sad that the cheapening wasn't even passed on to the buyer at the time. I mounted a Herter's (that ages me!) 4x scope on the rifle back then. QC seemed an issue even then as the horizontal adjustment screw was marked "UP" just like the vertical crosshair adjustment. Take care. Doug
Such an excellent post - truly one of those moments : "the choice." I have to say the 64 model year you chose is still a great rifle and a fine choice. There are people looking for the earliest post-64 models know; their collectibility increases. I'm looking for a pot-64 early model .458 - not easy to find. Anyway, your dad's and your's go together and the scope - well, that's collectible as well. I had to look up Herter's - they sold so many fine things I had no idea about - including the scopes you mentioned. I learn every day. The scope adjustment things is funny - I've had several scopes where the markings are reversed - "Left" makes the point of impact move right etc... I usually buy these with the adjustment screw turned all the way to the max and stopped. The prior owner just kept turning and the point of impact just got worse and worse. They didn't think to go the other way no matter what the "sign" said. Just like life haha. Take care and stay safe!
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Herter's. Waseca, Minn. Mom waited for the Sears and my brother and I drooled waiting for the Herter's catalogs each year. First place I saw Sako and Husquevarna rifles. Died with the 68 gun law.
Outstanding presentation sir. It is sad to see craftsmanship sidelined by desire for more profit facilitated by design to cost production methodologies. While it can provide a lower cost to entry for a consumer it could become a competition to see who can produce the cheapest firearms. I must say that modern manufacturing methods have brought some surprisingly accurate and reliable rifles to market. Pre-64's are wonderful Winchesters.
In 1992, Winchester (actually the Belgian Herstal/FN Group at that point) re-introduced a controlled round feed/fixed ejector Model 70 Classic. It even has the coned breech face, with the cone only going forward to the edge of the extractor groove. It’s worth noting that the Model 70 wasn’t alone in the pre-64/modern production controversy. The Model ‘94 lever action rifles also got the bean counter treatment in 1964.
Model 70. One more thing, two hunting buddies have model 700 Remingtons and I have been present on two separate occasions when their rifles discharged upon releasing the safety. Other than that my model 70 comes up in perfect sight alignment every time, fits me perfectly.
Wow - not good Burt : ( As you know - triggers and safeties have been made for centuries - everyone should be able to get it right. Glad no one was hurt - I hope.
I have had some idiots, and that's being kind, argue that there is no difference in the pre and post. The scary thing is that their vote counts the same as mine.
Mike, I've had unlearned folks at gun shows here in Texas that try to sell post 64's claiming they are pre 64's and I have tried to convince them they are misleading customers by trying to explain to them the CRF vs the PF action. They just look at me like a calf looking at a new gate.
@@easttexan2933 If they cannot tell the difference between a pre-64 and a post 64 Winchester they have no business trying to sell them period. Sounds like those unlearned folks need some serious education or they just don't know guns. I've never owned a Winchester model 70 and I can even tell the difference.
waterwave, I think it has more to do with just being dishonest when trying to sell the rifle to make more money. Someone probably sold it to them as a pre64 and once they realized their mistake, the cycle repeats itself. I'm sure this is not uncommon in the gun show business.
This brought back sad memories. In 1967, just out of high school, i purchased a pre-64 model 70 in .270 caliber for $100 (used). In 1968, first year in college, not knowing what i had, i sold it for $60 for beer money. I have cried ever since 😢
Winchester Pre 64 Model 70. Wow !! And in 270. Iam a fan of Jack . You have a great eye for quality craftsmanship. I really enjoy your videos . Thanks for sharing .
Thanks MQA - he was a fine writer and influenced a lot of people in the direction of quality, style and realistic performance - as you know. Thanks for writing.
I have a pre 64 Winchester model 70 30-06 when I bought it recently the stock looked like it was redone and super shiny and beautiful. and the action is like butter such a beautiful rifle. The older stuff is so much better made. It costed me $800 but worth every penny it has a old weaver but I’m planning on putting a vortex on it here soon can’t wait to get it out to the range 👍
Man this is a timely video. I've been hunting for a quality, well maintained old rifle for my first hunting rifle so I don't have to borrow from my dad. Couldn't afford a pre-64 Winchester but just today picked up a sporterized '17 Eddystone Enfield. I'm a history geek and this channel is the best.
I have owned both. All were accurate except the 30-06 only liked 165 grains in one pre 64. Own 3 pre guns, amazingly all 1955. The 300 H and H is .5 moa. So fun to shoot.
I hate to disappoint some pre 64 fans; and I am one of those, but I have to admit that the most accurate rifle I ever owned was a 1976 model 70mag in 300win mag. God I wish I had kept that rifle for it could put 3 shots in the size of your little finger nail at 100yrds all day; but family came first. God Bless to you all.
I had a 1964 model 70 in 300 win mag and it also was a great shooter and the only gun that had shot better was a Browning A bolt that shot 1:4” groups with factor ammo but it did have the Boss break on it which might explain why it did.
I love Mauser action rifles. I missed out on buying a Remington rifle that had actions made by Zastava back in the day and the Ruger M77 which came close to a real Mauser. I am really looking hard at the CZ 750 because the Czechs have made Mauser style actions for so long that the CZ 750 is thumping my Marksman Heart for a truly refined Mauser action rifle that will satisfy my soul and trigger finger for a fine 98 Mauser style marksman's rifle.
One time I was riding on a school bus heading to a jobsite on Alaska's north slope. Two Grizzley's crossed the road in front of us and then stopped about 50 yards from the road. They proceeded to bounce up and down while swinging their heads, Woofing. They were not happy. I told myself, "I'm glad I'm not out there."
Excellent video, excellent channel. I found it looking for this specific topic. I always had a general idea of the differences. You drove the nail home with the comment about it not being an evolution of firearms, but rather the evolution of manufacturing, machining, etc. I have my fathers post 64 in .30-06. Despite its issues, it will hold a place in my safe, and perhaps in my saddle scabbard on an elk hunt some time.
Hi James - I like the post 64 so much. If it wasn't the Winchester rifle that came after the pre 64 - it would have far better received. I find them to be excellent and the stock particularly well designed as Monte Carlos go. The early versions had sort of campy pressed -in checkering - which I like as well; gives those years a lot of character.
Winchester should have named the updated rifle with different name such as model 71 etc. With that, they could have produced premium model 70 in lesser numbers with premium price, and a cheaper 71 in mass.
Even though Winchester preferred making guns the “Old Way” modern gun manufacturing evolved and Winchester had to re-examine production methods to compete effectively and retain market share. The retooling necessary to accomplish this began in 1964 and the changes were drastic but thankfully short lived. From 1964~1967 Winchester went through many manufacturing transitions that the receivers were now cast hardened steel replacing a solid block of steel needing many hours of machining. The hand checkering on the wood stocks was gone, replaced by machine pressed designs resulting in more cost savings. The control feed bolts were replaced by a push feed design like the British Enfield model which remains one of the smoothest bolt actions of all time. Some people believe that these Post 64 rifles were second-rate compared to the Pre 64 Winchesters. It is true that the changes resulted in less hands-on craftsmanship, but the modern production methods were also used by Remington, Ruger and Savage arms at the time. The Winchester rifles remained the front runner in accuracy and looks than their competitors. Knocking the post 1964 model’s action and finish has been a popular sport for years, in fact it is a very well-made action, and for some purposes it is better than the pre 1964 design. Winchester did heed the complaints from its customers and in 1968 announced a redesigned rifle and what a superb rifle it was, for these improved Model 70’s had superior bolts and receivers in addition to a reshaped walnut stock with handsome checkering resulting in fine sporting rifles that are beautifully well balanced, accurate and retained the old-world craftsmanship that Winchesters were famous for, and their loyal customers expected. Winchesters have consistently escalated in value in the used gun market and are the most sought after at gun shows and estate sales. Sales of the pre 1964 rifles were never really that great, even in the boom years from 1945~1955 simply because Winchester could not produce these superb rifles fast enough at a competitive cost. Far from being a failure though, the post 1964 rifles outsold the previous model by a considerable margin. From a business standpoint, the only mistake Winchester made was modernizing their factories about twenty years too late.
My Pop had a Winchester Pre 64 Model 70 in 243 with stainless steel Bull Barrel. He regretted letting it go. So did I. It was real heavy is what I remember. 1989 was when he parted with it. Had a fixed 10 power scope on it. My uncle shot a Ground Hog with it at over a quarter mile. Would hold a dime size 3 shot group at 100 yards.
I didn't realize until I saw your all your videos that the history of bolt action rifles can pretty much be summed up as the history of the Mauser action! What a feat of engineering that more than a hundred years later it is still the model to copy for everyone. Really enjoy your discussion of these wood and metal beauties. There's something aesthetically pleasing about these sleek rifles that more modern counterparts lack. If you ever have the time, could you discuss the different styles of stocks-- wood ones of course!-- from your collection? Perhaps some of your favourites?
Can't talk bolt fun history, without mentioning the Lee Enfield rifles. Although the majority of bolt guns took a lot from Mauser action, not all did in fact.
functor1, a rifle that is going to be used to kill folks and protect your life at the same time better damn well be perfect when it functions. Hence, the 98 Mauser. I don't shoot PF actions because they invariably don't eject well.
I watch many different gun reviews on you tube. Your content is top notch and broken down so people like my self can easily understand it. Your kind and patient delivery sets you head and shoulders above many other gun content creators. You put a focus on history, craftsmanship, and outstanding quality. Thank you for being you. I recently inherited a 1947 Winchester model 70 in 30:06. The gun was originally purchased by a family member who was a returning P.O.W. As his deer rifle in Frankfort KY. I fired the gun once as a young man, but it looks as new. The quality of the gun speaks for its self. My gun has a Lyman Peep sight that was inleted in to the stock. Was the Lyman sight a factor option? And if so how common are they? I would let you borrow it if you like. God bless you. Jim
Hi Jim - Thank you for your so kind and inspiring words. I'll keep going! Your rifle is the kind everyone wants : a Model 70 of that vintage in such condition is a dream to own. Many owners installed the Lyman Peep - a superb sight. I'm not aware of the factory installing them. Your offer to let me use your rifle is truly touching. I hope to meet you in person one day; yet I feel we know one another already. God Bless you and your family. : )
Collections bring back fond memories. But we must also realize that some beautiful new rifles are just possibly going to eclipse the history and grandeur of these past. Nothing is so constant as change. There are some newly built rifles that have a story that practically tell themselves. I have worked on some prototype rifles. Go look at The Complete Rifle Book. By the third edition there are some photos of rifles that have a rich heritage that has been honored by new rifles that are incredibly accurate and lovely, and tough! FN and the current suppliers and Workman and Women are actually making a history that would make Jack O’Connor and many others delighted that now are off to the Happy Hunting Grounds. I knew enough of those old famous people to be certain they wanted their legacies to last far into the future! The Model 70 current Rifle is a real Tribute to lasting Quality. Brandon O Connor has allowed many to shoot the now famous Number Two .270. The recent Tribute and Custom Tribute would impress Jack and his wife Eleanor. That Number 2 Model 70 is worth a fortune! But I and others own the commerative Edition. Finally, I know young people that own very recently built Model 70 Featherweights that someday will be precious things stored in modern Treasure Chests. Let us pray that the Circle of Life continues to include wildlife, fine crafted items, and people who appreciate them.
thanks for the video, just found a pre-64 .270 and am very excited to shoot it (literally found it in a closet at my grandpa's place i just moved into. Place has barely been touched since he passed 23 years ago. Couple shotguns and a nice Beretta Brevet 418 1948 as well)
My goodness Joe - just about everyone dreams of something like that happening. Fantastic! A pre-64 and the Beretta is something as well. I reached in old closets as well and had tremendous good fortune : dusty mops and brooms and a couple shower bars. Not much shooting joy there. Ha! Anyway - good on you and enjoy the guns.
Nice video, a few corrections though, some to the comments already posted. The coned breech of the pre-64 M70 was borrowed from the springfield. The extractor on the pre- 64 WILL snap over a loose loaded round, the round doesn't have to come from the magazine.(almost strictly a Mauser feature) The trigger on pre and post 64 M70's were virtually identical. The large cut-out in the H&H magnums was for clearance, not stripper clips, stripper clips won't hold the larger head of the H&H cartridges. Pre-64s chambered in 30-06 and some .308s were equipped with a stripper clip slots to accept military stripper clips, but they were not the large cut-out the H&H's used. I have 3 M70's, 1 pre-64('55) and 2 post ('73 model and '92 model). Never had a failure of any of them. I don't have a late model ("classic") but would like to get one. The new classic, is really a marriage of the pre and post -64. It uses the forged and more accurately heat treated receiver of the post 64, the guide lug of the post 68, and the more accurately machined 2-piece bolt of the post 64, but went back to the big controlled round feed extractor and the coned springfield breech of pre-64 fame. Then they added the new MOA trigger, which I haven't tried yet.... Love my Winchesters.....
Hi Darryl, Thanks so much for writing! Glad you have 3 of those great rifles. I was offered a 257 Roberts recently and stupidly paused to think....gone.... people write me that the Classics are excellent; some of the accuracy reports for the WSM editions are astonishing. The pre and post 64s are all very fine rifles - I like them all. Thanks for writing!
Until I carried my model 70 to a gunsmith for a trigger job I didn't know they came from the factory with a trigger that was adjustable down from 7 pound pull to a 3 pound pull. I actually had mine set at 2 pounds which I think improved my own accuracy.
After seeing the post 64 model 70 and the Remington 700, I think the Bergara B14 bolt looks just like the Winchester and it’s recoil lug is like the Remington. Interesting combination. Thank you for all your insight, and your longer videos are definitely my favorite!
You're welcome. Thanks for the videos. I have 2 721's in 270 and 30/06. Very accurate rifles. I also have pre 64 model 70's as well. Very accurate and well made rifles for sure. The Browning Safari with it's FN Belgian action is also a fantastic rifle. I have a few of them also. I love the older classic rifles. As you stated a lot of the work on those rifle's was hand fitted.
I agree Gino; I have one in .308 and it is excellent. Only comparing to the pre-64 makes the post 64 seem like less. The Remington 700 is more or less the same as the post 64 Win. - and it is a legend.
I had a 1965 mod 70 in 7mm Rem caliber and it was junk, the wood to metal fit was horrible and it wouldn't shoot a 4" group. They also floated the barrel so they didn't have to fit the stock to the barrel. A couple years later they started building the mod 70 pretty good again but the early post 64 model 70's were not good guns.
Liked most of this. The Enfield of U.S. military use was the "P17" in .30-06 the "P14" being the rifles in .303 made for sale to the British. I would like to hear the designers of the trigger, and safety mentioned, they were the real genies at Winchester. I did very much enjoy your economics lesson. Many guys my age (old enough to remember the switch over, and some) wish that Winchester had kept the lux version alongside the new model, but it took one look at the numbers to show how silly that thought was.
On dangerous game cartridges that coned breach on the model 70 is very important for feeding. For example, 458 win mag with its round nose bullet can hit the rear of the barrel and not feed into the chamber, ie; the Ruger 77. You'll be glad you had a Winchester when facing a charging Grizzly or African buffalo.
That cut out on the Remington 700 is for stripper clips. You sometimes run into Win Model 70's with that as well. The competition high power shooters back in the day wanted to be able to rapidly reload in competition. This was back when Iron Sights were the norm even in 1000 yard matches.
A brief discussion of the Remington Model 721 thrown in before the Model 700 would have been very informative to your subscribers. Excellent video with really interesting facts. I am of the opinion that the "free floating" barrel rage of this day and time is a lot to do about nothing. I've owned several pre64's and I've never had a problem obtaining 1" groups at a 100yds.
You're right about the 721. I used to have them around and felt bad for not having one on the table. I like their spartan appearance and even the bolt is a very clean design. Glad you have a pre-64. Thanks for writing.
I’ve just put a deposit on a CRF mod 70 Classic Super Express in .375 Holland and Holland magnum. Made in New Haven only been zeroed from brand new. Was a hard find in England
My neighbor gave me a1964 model 70 chambered in 225 Win. Overall it’s in very good shape considering it’s 59 years old. The stock needs to be refinished, looks like someone tried to clear coat it. Even though the 225 Win ammo hasn’t been mass produced in years it can’t bring myself to rechamber to another 22cal or replace the barrel. So I’ll hand over $75+ for a box of ammo and invest in reloading dies.
As to the Enfield P14 action. It started as the P13 in 1913 with the intention of replacing the Enfield rifle in 303 British. When WW1 broke out experimentation og the new 284 Enfield cartridge was not completed, and the action was adapted to take the rimmed 303 British cartridge, and renamed the pattern 14.Long story short, production and supply were a problem and so manufacturers were contracted out side of Britain. Remington was one of the manufacturers of pattern 14 rifles. In 1917 when the USA entered the war, Remington built the P17 rifle chambered in 30 06. One of the main differences between the P14/17 action and the Mauser action, is the cocking mechanism. The Mauser cocks on opening the bolt while the Enfield design cocks on closing.
I have a model 70 300 Winchester Magnum with a 760... serial number. I’m pretty sure it’s post 64 but there is no bolt/pin holding the action to the shell on the side. There are screws for iron sights beneath a scope that was on it when we bought it. There is a bottom plate for the mag spring to be removed and/or replaced. The bottom of the grip is painted black, tied off by a pained ribbon. There is ribbon checkering with “saint” symbols left uningraved along the checkering. I have no idea what to think. The shell is also covering the left side of the gun so that all I see is Winchester and the faint outlines of the top of ingraved letters bellow, hidden by the wood. It might be a no-brained or obvious but I haven’t been able to find anything definite. Please help!
Hi Camden - If the bolt is clean on the right - round and nothing attached to it straight to the locking lugs at the front of the bolt - it is post 64. If there is a flatish part attached to the bolt - on the right - it is pre-64. Hope this helps. : )
Excellent video, I worked as a gunsmith assistant as a kid, you did a great job have own and shot pre 64 and post, yes there is a big difference, pros and cons...actually I like the newer FN Winchester 70...sorry but there not bad at all....like my 1944 Winchester M1 Garand the best....Shoe
I have owned a post 64 model 70 in 7mm magnum since 1974. I have taken everything from woodchucks to moose with it. I did shoot a lot of targets with it as well to the point of burning out the barrel. I had a Shiela barrell installed and accuracy is back to dead on. Other than the barrel I've had no problem. The controlled round feeding is silly hype in my opinion as my post 64 will cycle rounds without fail inverted 180 degrees. I admit I am a hunter not a collector.
Being a huge Winchester 70 fan, I've owned and used all sorts of 70's over the years. My experience with 70's has been that the Pre-'64's are great rifles but they're all way over priced these days. The initial Post-'64's were a bit of a drag because of corners that were cut to save money. I would argue that even though the Post-64 were not as nice as the Pre-64 rifles, they were still a better design than the 700's. One of the best hunting rifles I've ever used was a late '90's Black Shadow which was Winchester's utility rifle with a matte black finish and polymer stocks. The one I owned had the smoothest action I've ever felt, no matter what rifle I've compared it to. The 90's through '06 Black Shadows can be picked up for $300 and represent one of the best values on the hunting rifle market today. Currently, I own a pair of US made FN/Winchester 70's in 7x57 Featherweight and 375H&H Safari. Both rifles have the updated Pre-64 actions in blue with solid walnut stocks, exactly what one would expect from the 70. And, as you mentioned, they are exceptionally accurate. I've never found a Post-64 that didn't perform well but Winchester should have designated them with another model number and simply produced both. Charge more for the 70 and outsell the 700 with the bargain model...
Hi Paul, I agree with everything you wrote. I have a hunch that marketing for the plethora of rifles and actions from all over the world has obscured the current Model 70 : which, dollar for dollar, remains probably the best rifle on the market. We should all buy them before they discontinue them again. Your comments on the post 64 push feed are spot on as well - grossly undervalued. They always were and still are superb rifles and actions; they just were not pre-64's and the market unfairly recoiled from them. I have the .308 XTR you saw on the video and a .270 XTR as well - which shoots groups at 200 yards that look like 100 yard groups. The original pre-64 is a legend now and if they discontinue the re-introduced model - there will likely be value surges for the originals and the newer versions. I'm going to head out and buy a new Model 70.
Hi again Paul - I just checked the line up and I'm going to buy the Alaskan in 30-06 ; they even have the rear sight on a machined band - excellent. They should put iron sights on all of them; scopes are great of course but irons are as well.
USOG - Yeah, my 375H&H has factory irons as you'd expect but my 7x57 is a victim of the modern perspective that hunters must use scopes in order to hit their target... :( I grew up using irons and they're useful for keeping your feet grounded. I've helped a number of scope users track down deer that were 300+ yards Hail Mary's. My 7x57 is zeroed at 100yds and I know the trajectories out to 200 yds for the 139/140g bullets I use. Since I don't practice past 200yds, I range my field when I take the stand for landmarks. My deer drop when shot and the most I've ever had too track one is 60-75yds. Hope you enjoy your soon to be Alaskan with factory irons, a classic touch from a passing era. Fewer and fewer hunters use irons unless they're using their grandfather's '94, lol! Take care and good luck with your hunting trips this year!
Paul Simmons If my Model 70 Classic came with iron sights I would definitely use them. I grew up shooting rifles with open sights and have dropped deer dead in their tracks at 200 yards. Age is catching up with me now so I kinda need a scope.
I’m re-watching this. It seems to me that if they’d only made one change (the action) and not also made the stock cheaper at the same time, Winchester wouldn’t have experienced as much damage to their reputation.
I have heard from several people that the push feed M70 was a very accurate rifle. One gent suggested that Winchester should not have called the push feed a M70, because of the high regard the M70 name inspired. He thought that the push feed should have had its own designation and built in addition to the M70 rather than replace it. I guess hind sight is 20 20, and thanks to Browning, we have the option again to get the control round feed. I have one, made in Portugal and it is excellent!
I like the idea of a different model # designation. Your friend is right. They should have moved the 70 to the custom shop and played the new - and extremely accurate - model 701 or something on the main stage. We've come full circle though - and your M70 is a s good as any ever made.
i have the exact feather weight with the African express stock. XTR. I can tell also with the bolt plugs. They dont come like that anymore. I shoot mine often. 30-06. mine was 77' year.
Those are excellent rifles - and a fine vintage. I find the XTRs are undervalued in the market. You've got a keeper - but you know that. Thanks for the note.
Fantastic content again. I very much enjoy the FN South Carolina produced winchester m70's, the super grade is fantastic. Not quite in the the leaque of that beautiful 1947 though.
I have a "modern" 70 in a classic pre-64 version and the weapon says that it is made in the USA by Winchester. It is one of the first batches that arrived in Spain. Maybe now FN makes them. I haven't had a chance to see one of those. Thanks again
You have 2 of the finest. That .308 is as good as it gets for handling - and the .284 cartridge is one of those haunting rounds; I've owned a couple - a Cooper and a Win. 88 - sold them both and the cartridge just kept coming back to my thinking. So I have an old Savage 99 in .284. Great round. And thank you. : )
They say the new Model 70s from Portugal are as good as or better than the Pre-64s. Technically, they may be correct. Some people wouldn't see any difference. Just like I can't tell the difference between fine wine and table wine. To me, the nuances of the wood, the wood finish, and the bluing are huge and I'll take the Pre-64!
Just found your site. Really enjoyed this video, your enthusiasm and knowledge,I found fascinating. I have subscribed and will be watching many more. Many thanks and well done.
I watched this with my Springer Spaniels. I just had to get out my pre 64 and my XTR, both in .270 Win and follow along. Now, the dogs are bouncing off the walls.
All my shooting life I've longed for a pre64 model70. Only problem is, I'm a lefty. Problem solved when USRA came along with a left hand CRF action. It may not be a pre64, but it's a very nice rifle in my estimation. And of course I had to order it in .270Win.👍
Hi Mike - wise choice and wise decision. One day, they will stop making these and then everyone will wonder how they could have let so much time go by - with what they wanted and needed right in front of them - but they did not reach out...and then it was gone. That, my friend, is a keeper. Mike
I didn’t search through all the comments to see if you had an answer but the square cut-out under the rear scope mount is for clip feeding or clip loading the rounds.
I have a 1957 M70 in 30-06, one of my birth year Winnies. Looks like the one you show here. Great shooter, especially after I put a limb saver on it. 180 gr packs more punch than I want to endure for more than a few rounds. ;) -The Pattern 14 was a .303 made under contract in the US for Great Britain because they couldn't meet demand with their limited Lee-Enfield mfg capacity. -The US Model of 1917 (aka P17) was the 30-06 version made by Remington, their subsidiary Eddystone & Winchester to augment US arms due to limited Springfield 03 production capacity. I have a sported 03 (a sweet moa shooter) and want an unmolested one as well as a M1917.
Very good orientation and illustration of the pre and post '64 Winchester Model 70's. The first example manufactured in 1948 appeared to have a 1903A3 military barrel, which is perfectly fine. If that's true it's just another intriguing detail of the evolution of that rifle. At least the '70's produced today are more similar in design to the original pre-64 rifles. I suppose the most significant minus would be cheap materials. One thing which comes to mind are various alloys for specific parts. Although, a Sauer 202 Highland I sold 4 years ago was just under 5 pounds and all alloy, with flawless performance. More interesting is the fact that the MSR of nearly $4000.00 indicated it was not only insanely over priced due to the name behind the quality, but the alloys do not seem to impede the function of the action, do not freeze like steel while hunting and consistently (for specific firearms) do not reduce values as indicated in the blue book of gun values. Finally, you have reminded me FN purchased Winchester, and I would be extremely enthusiastic about barreled actions or complete Model 70 rifles produced in Belgium! I've driven to that country somewhat frequently while on contract in the EU and regret not visiting the pre-War and current FN manufacturing facilities.
DefinItely the best hunting rifle I have owned...although the wood was very and a scratch on one if those equals dollars. Just wish I found other creative ways to cover financial obligations, tax among the more pressing issue.
I believe the new Model 70’s made and assembled by FN in Portugal are some of the finest rifles ever commercially made. I no longer miss the pre-64 versions.
I have a 1980 xtr (i bought brand new)in .270, I love it deer hate it. the 700 rem ruined the m70 BUT it still has the great M70 safety which I love same as my new m70 that was made in usa but put together in portugal w/crf that is in 7-08 and featherlight also a great gun. Thanks for putting out great vids
You need to cover the new model 70 that’s made by FN that is made like the old “Pre ‘64” but may have some differences. Very important to compare this version with the original Pre ‘64. Please make one. Thank you, Sir. I consider myself educated in firearms but you have many I’m. Or familiar with. I enjoy your videos and learn a bunch. “The more I learn, the more I realize I how ignorant I really am.”
Thank you for your kind words. I'm pretty sure we made such a video - but I'll check. I learn every day that I will run out of time long before I learn much about anything; but I try : )
*QUALITY FIREARMS SUCH AS THE MODEL 70 HAS ITS PLACE AND SHOULD NEVER BE CHANGED FOR ANY REASON...WE COULDN'T BE MORE DISGUSTED WITH WINCHESTER AS WE'VE MOVED AWAY FROM PURCHASING ANY OTHER FIREARMS FROM WINCHESTER!* *I WAS HOPING TO OBTAIN ONE, BUT WILL REFRAIN FROM THE NEWER ONES!!* *A GREAT RIFLE IN THE .270.* *IF ONLY YOU'D SELL THE ONE YOU'RE HOLDING...WHAT A CATCH, USOG!!*
If only you could reach the factories and multi-nationals - you are 100% correct. They don't seem to understand that we, the shooting public, have a good idea of what's what - more than the consumers of other products. Quality and character matters.
Sadly the guy just going deer hunting is not going to pay 4 X as much for a rifle that will accomplish very little more. Winchester was a mass production company and as the author said they simply could never have competed with the model 700. You just don't sell a lot of high end rifles
Charles Borrelli True, but I would much rather have something my son would be proud to own one day, an heirloom so to speak. Black plastic stocks just look cheap and do absolutely nothing aesthetically for me.
In it`s defense,I must just say,that in 1975,my grandmother bought me a brand new post 64 Mod 70 in 308.With it I have shot everything from steenbuck to eland and not had a moments problem with it,using the nice issued Williams open sights.
One of the most comfortable stocks of all time - the post-64 Model 70 - the high iron sights are on instantly. I have the identical rifle in .308; excellent rifle.
Exactly! You summed the rifle up perfectly,thanks.
I concur. See my long post on this subjedt.
Your videos are top notch. No obnoxious intros, no hoopla, just straight up information presented very well. I'll often find your videos when considering purchasing a rifle. Needless to say, you've given valuable perspective on a few, including the model 70. Thanks!
One thing people don't realize is a major reason Winchester had to cut costs in 1964 is because of the Defense Dept's. abrupt cancellation of all (including Winchester's), M-14 contracts the year before. As some people know, the M-14 program had a very bad start at both Winchester and Harrington & Richardson, but by 1963, almost all the problems had been solved and both Winchester and H & R were looking forward to many years of profitable production to recoup their big start-up costs. Obviously, that never happened.
@@CarlGerhardt1😢😮😮😮
I have a 1978 Winchester model 70 XTR 30-06. It shoots half inch groups at 100 yards with the old Redfield wide field see through scope set up. I bought it at a pawnshop for next to nothing. So I can tell you from experience that the post 64 rifles are not as bad as you’re making them out to be. Fit and finish is nice, it is a very accurate rifle and operates as it should with no hiccups ever. The pre 64’s were awesome don’t get me wrong but there is nothing wrong with the post 64’s from the late 70’s and early 80’s. From what I’ve read the XTR version came out in 1977. The extra was meant to improve quality control and fit and finish of the rifle. I love mine.
Excatly!
I’ve have a model 70 XTR featherweight 30 06 since 1982. I also have a pre 64 featherweight 308. They are both good!
A friend of my dad's had the same rifle. I refinished the stock in 84 and dad glass bedded the barrel and did some trigger work on it. We had some 150gr silver tips laying around so we took it to the range to sight it in. We DID NOT want to give that sucker back. It was a shooter. Three rounds in the same hole damn near at a 100 yards and 5 shot groups 5/8ths or under. I had a pre 64 in 270 that I hunted with that would do the same thing but I never could bring myself to glass bed it,didn't want to ruin the value. That man hunted deer,elk and moose with it until he passed it on to his son who still does. He reloaded 150 and 180 nossler partitions for it and took a lot of game with it. You've got a great rifle and it's a blessing to go in the field with one you can have confidence in.
Pre 64 is not produced no more, therefor its more valuable on collecting side, its to risky to bring to hunting if stock got scrached😂
@@TheThridwolf Thanks for stopping by and not adding anything intelligent, or beneficial!
You are the Antiques Roadshow of firearms. Excellent series of vids!
Thank you Fast Eddy!
Gotta agree.
Yeah Un Huh cept he looks too much like Tucker Carlson, the Moron of Fox Company. Gosh Fast Eddy, do you run on all fours?
Of all the Winchester Model 70 videos I have ever watched, this one is definitely the best. Great Job Sir.
Hi Rick, I look forward to your next video - such a fine location you have. Good words are like food - they sustain us no? All the best my friend.
USOG Yes Sir they do, Thank You for watching My Videos as well.
It’s a great video, no doubt. My only complaint is that there’s NO pot smoking like Hickok45 and his Model 70 review/shooting. Ha ha ha ha. Love my Push Feed Model 70 .22-250 Sporter for coyotes and groundhogs. Peace Be To Journey!
@@barneygo2010 🤣
Excellent video and information, thank you so much! I have a pre 64 300 H&H that my grandfather gave me when I started hunting. He always told me it was a valuable rifle. its not pretty, the barrel has patches of worn bluing, the stock has scratches, dings and is losing its finish. However its function is flawless. Its filled countless tags for him as well as several for me. It wouldn't be worth much to someone else but its worth the world to me
Chris my son has two pre 64s 257 Robert's and a 25.06. Both 🍒. He got them from his great grandfather. They both have old scopes. They had to be drilled and taped for scopes. The 300 HH is worth more i think. So you have a gem. Looking to get his first buck this year with one of them.
Its a 30.06 not 25
Mike as always a great video
I personally feel that the post 64 winchester got an unjust wrap.they weren't on par with the pre 64 but they were great riflesfully on par with the rem 700
Thanks for posting
This was an amazing video thank you! I wasn't aware of the relationship between the 1917, the rem 700 and how it influenced the Winchester design in 64. I am a Mauser nut and just picked up a Birmingham parker hale in .270 it seems to have a Santa Barbra commercial receiver with a beautiful rolled over stock, and iron sights with a Burris scope mounted. I would love for you to do a video on the Parker Hale's if you so desire. Your videos and knowledge on all of these great old guns should be preserved!
Thank you peanut3050 - your Parker Hale is best kept secret - one of the finest bolt guns out there - yet priced below what the market value should be - for who knows what reason. Good on you for picking one up!
I absolutely love the pre-64's because of its Mauser heritage.
I just acquired a custom pre 64 in 308 Norma mag, with no serial numbers, just 308 norma stamped on the barrel. It is slightly different than my 63 30 06. Looking for ways to identify manufacture date. Any ideas?
Thanks so much for this video. First time I saw a pre-64 Winchester against a post 64 I wondered why anyone would opt for the pre-64?? Until I got my hands on it to put rounds down range. Beauty on the pre-64 goes beyond skin deep. The Rifleman's rifle indeed.
Really enjoyed this video. Mine is a 1946, in .30-06, wearing a Weaver C-6 glass. One would be hard pressed to find a more beautiful and more perfect rifle than the pre-64’s.
I have a Winchester 70 in 222 and I love that rifle. Very most beloved one is still the old Husqvarna 1900 though!
My 70 was made in1948 in 300 H&H super grade long barrel. Excellent condition with scope and rings from same year. It has wide built in sling swivels. Raised cheek piece checkered walnut with black for-end tip.
Hi Bill - you've got a diamond there. I'm sure you know : )
My dad gave me my first rifle when I was 12, I came home, my gun rack was mounted and I had my Ithaca 20 Ga single shot and my Winchester Model 70 in 30.06. He told me it was an "original" model. Had no clue what that meant, but as I recently started researching, it turns out the SN puts it being built in 1961. I want to mount a scope on it (it had a vintage peep sight on it). I did not like shooting it because it is so light and the recoil is a beast, but even with peep sights at 100 yds, this rifle is so accurate.
That's one of the best James - good on you and your Dad.
Thank you for making this and many other very nice videos.
Your knowledge of firearms is tremendous. Your personality also Shines through in your videos. You’re very likable person
Thank you KY - your kind words are so meaningful to me. I appreciate that you are here.
One thing that struck me on my pre 64 model 70 was the knurling at the scope base mounts. That they would take the machining time and cost to do that on a production rifle. And so much hand fitting work that went into old firearms.
Not many people see those details. They made a truly great rifle.
I have a 1947 pre 64 30-06 with a six power fixed weaver scope and tip over scope mounts . I hunt at least one day out of every deer season with it . Great rifle!
Hi Travis. That is a rifle to keep; they hold their value and if Winchester changes/discontinues the 70 again - the pre-64's go up again. Thanks for writing.
Ahhh. You bring up a sad episode in my gunning history. Dad had a Winchester bolt action that a local perfectionist gunsmith had matched a barrel out of several he tried to the action. A beautiful 30.06. When I turned 14 I was a dedicated deer hunter and my much older mentor had an in with the Winchester area rep. So hunting season was coming up, I had worked all summer and accumulated the grand total of $114. I had a model 94 lever action, a fine rifle but the action was too complicated to strip after a day out in the temperate rainforest. So I wanted a bolt Winchester no question. Hunting season was a month away and my friend could get one wholesale for my $114. My choice was to wait an indeterminate time for one of the old stock featherweight Model 70s or buy the right now 1964 version (and this was 1964). He could get either for the same price! Well my patience being what it is I opted for the 64 model. I still have it but every time I look at it I think that could have been a pre 64 featherweight. Since leaves, pineneedles etc got in the 'free floating' barrel I was introduced to Acra Glass that same year. I also have experienced the bolt when on full safe and sling carried in the brush dropping out of the action. Long odds but it still happened. I have also had a case jam in the chamber after firing that needed a gunsmith to remove. None of those things ever happened in a lifetime of shooting for Dad with the old Winchester and it continued on flawlessly with me and on to my son. So although I have a long long history with my .243 Winchester and wouldn't part with it it just isn't near the same quality. It will shoot I have to say. I handloaded for it and achieved easily 3/4" groups off the bench at 100 yds. But I still look over the fence at the pre 64 with longing! It was sad that the cheapening wasn't even passed on to the buyer at the time. I mounted a Herter's (that ages me!) 4x scope on the rifle back then. QC seemed an issue even then as the horizontal adjustment screw was marked "UP" just like the vertical crosshair adjustment. Take care. Doug
Such an excellent post - truly one of those moments : "the choice." I have to say the 64 model year you chose is still a great rifle and a fine choice. There are people looking for the earliest post-64 models know; their collectibility increases. I'm looking for a pot-64 early model .458 - not easy to find. Anyway, your dad's and your's go together and the scope - well, that's collectible as well. I had to look up Herter's - they sold so many fine things I had no idea about - including the scopes you mentioned. I learn every day. The scope adjustment things is funny - I've had several scopes where the markings are reversed - "Left" makes the point of impact move right etc... I usually buy these with the adjustment screw turned all the way to the max and stopped. The prior owner just kept turning and the point of impact just got worse and worse. They didn't think to go the other way no matter what the "sign" said. Just like life haha.
Take care and stay safe!
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Herter's. Waseca, Minn. Mom waited for the Sears and my brother and I drooled waiting for the Herter's catalogs each year. First place I saw Sako and Husquevarna rifles. Died with the 68 gun law.
Outstanding presentation sir. It is sad to see craftsmanship sidelined by desire for more profit facilitated by design to cost production methodologies. While it can provide a lower cost to entry for a consumer it could become a competition to see who can produce the cheapest firearms. I must say that modern manufacturing methods have brought some surprisingly accurate and reliable rifles to market. Pre-64's are wonderful Winchesters.
In 1992, Winchester (actually the Belgian Herstal/FN Group at that point) re-introduced a controlled round feed/fixed ejector Model 70 Classic. It even has the coned breech face, with the cone only going forward to the edge of the extractor groove.
It’s worth noting that the Model 70 wasn’t alone in the pre-64/modern production controversy. The Model ‘94 lever action rifles also got the bean counter treatment in 1964.
Thank you!
very nice Pre 64 270. The original sling hardware was replaced as well. Fine rifle for sure. Thanks for the video.
Thanks Tom - I miss the details sometimes. Sorry.
Model 70. One more thing, two hunting buddies have model 700 Remingtons and I have been present on two separate occasions when their rifles discharged upon releasing the safety. Other than that my model 70 comes up in perfect sight alignment every time, fits me perfectly.
Wow - not good Burt : ( As you know - triggers and safeties have been made for centuries - everyone should be able to get it right. Glad no one was hurt - I hope.
Fine video thank you for you time and attention!!!!!!!!!
Thank you!
I have had some idiots, and that's being kind, argue that there is no difference in the pre and post. The scary thing is that their vote counts the same as mine.
Hahahaha Mike! That is so funny - both the rifle and the vote comment. Well, they have much to learn - but that is okay; things can only get better.
Mike, I've had unlearned folks at gun shows here in Texas that try to sell post 64's claiming they are pre 64's and I have tried to convince them they are misleading customers by trying to explain to them the CRF vs the PF action. They just look at me like a calf looking at a new gate.
Ignorance, some of it willful, abounds in the firearms world. Sad but what you say is totally true.
@@easttexan2933 If they cannot tell the difference between a pre-64 and a post 64 Winchester they have no business trying to sell them period. Sounds like those unlearned folks need some serious education or they just don't know guns. I've never owned a Winchester model 70 and I can even tell the difference.
waterwave, I think it has more to do with just being dishonest when trying to sell the rifle to make more money. Someone probably sold it to them as a pre64 and once they realized their mistake, the cycle repeats itself. I'm sure this is not uncommon in the gun show business.
Thanks for a great video, I own a pre 64 Winchester .300 H&H, for me its a treasure. No comparison to post.
Thanks you so much - great rifle to own!
I also have a pre 64 300 H&H that my grandfather gave me. It is by far my most prized possession! Wouldn't sell it for anything
This brought back sad memories. In 1967, just out of high school, i purchased a pre-64 model 70 in .270 caliber for $100 (used). In 1968, first year in college, not knowing what i had, i sold it for $60 for beer money. I have cried ever since 😢
Winchester Pre 64 Model 70. Wow !! And in 270. Iam a fan of Jack . You have a great eye for quality craftsmanship. I really enjoy your videos . Thanks for sharing .
Thanks MQA - he was a fine writer and influenced a lot of people in the direction of quality, style and realistic performance - as you know. Thanks for writing.
I have a pre 64 Winchester model 70 30-06 when I bought it recently the stock looked like it was redone and super shiny and beautiful. and the action is like butter such a beautiful rifle. The older stuff is so much better made. It costed me $800 but worth every penny it has a old weaver but I’m planning on putting a vortex on it here soon can’t wait to get it out to the range 👍
Man this is a timely video. I've been hunting for a quality, well maintained old rifle for my first hunting rifle so I don't have to borrow from my dad. Couldn't afford a pre-64 Winchester but just today picked up a sporterized '17 Eddystone Enfield. I'm a history geek and this channel is the best.
Greetings BM - that Enfield is a tank - great buy and they reload so quick and smooth. Appreciate that you watched and sent a note. Good shooting.
I have owned both. All were accurate except the 30-06 only liked 165 grains in one pre 64. Own 3 pre guns, amazingly all 1955. The 300 H and H is .5 moa.
So fun to shoot.
You're a lucky man Wallace. It's not easy to find the .300 H&H as you know - good on you.
18 minutes of USOG? Sign me up!
: ) I thought maybe I talk too much but then there is so much to tell. Glad you're here.
I hate to disappoint some pre 64 fans; and I am one of those, but I have to admit that the most accurate rifle I ever owned was a 1976 model 70mag in 300win mag. God I wish I had kept that rifle for it could put 3 shots in the size of your little finger nail at 100yrds all day; but family came first. God Bless to you all.
Hi Gary - I think a lot of people had and have great experiences with the post 64 - I hope you get one again; or maybe you have already. God Bless.
I had a 1964 model 70 in 300 win mag and it also was a great shooter and the only gun that had shot better was a Browning A bolt that shot 1:4” groups with factor ammo but it did have the Boss break on it which might explain why it did.
Looking for a Model 70 in 30-06 and you did a fantastic job of explaining why I should purchase the pre 64 model. Well done and Thank you!
Mark Anderson it took me 8yrs to find one from my birth year 1952, $600, its 95%, they are out there so go get one.
That 300 H&H is probably still the best magnum hunting round ever designed. Very efficient.
I like it too.
Still using mine. Chronograph 165 at 3250.
I love Mauser action rifles. I missed out on buying a Remington rifle that had actions made by Zastava back in the day and the Ruger M77 which came close to a real Mauser. I am really looking hard at the CZ 750 because the Czechs have made Mauser style actions for so long that the CZ 750 is thumping my Marksman Heart for a truly refined Mauser action rifle that will satisfy my soul and trigger finger for a fine 98 Mauser style marksman's rifle.
One time I was riding on a school bus heading to a jobsite on Alaska's north slope. Two Grizzley's crossed the road in front of us and then stopped about 50 yards from the road. They proceeded to bounce up and down while swinging their heads, Woofing. They were not happy. I told myself, "I'm glad I'm not out there."
I can visualize that! Good bus.
Excellent video, excellent channel. I found it looking for this specific topic. I always had a general idea of the differences. You drove the nail home with the comment about it not being an evolution of firearms, but rather the evolution of manufacturing, machining, etc. I have my fathers post 64 in .30-06. Despite its issues, it will hold a place in my safe, and perhaps in my saddle scabbard on an elk hunt some time.
Hi James - I like the post 64 so much. If it wasn't the Winchester rifle that came after the pre 64 - it would have far better received. I find them to be excellent and the stock particularly well designed as Monte Carlos go. The early versions had sort of campy pressed -in checkering - which I like as well; gives those years a lot of character.
Yes, they came drilled and tapped for a scope. Some very early models didn't come drilled.
Winchester should have named the updated rifle with different name such as model 71 etc. With that, they could have produced premium model 70 in lesser numbers with premium price, and a cheaper 71 in mass.
Good idea
Even though Winchester preferred making guns the “Old Way” modern gun manufacturing evolved and Winchester had to re-examine production methods to compete effectively and retain market share. The retooling necessary to accomplish this began in 1964 and the changes were drastic but thankfully short lived. From 1964~1967 Winchester went through many manufacturing transitions that the receivers were now cast hardened steel replacing a solid block of steel needing many hours of machining. The hand checkering on the wood stocks was gone, replaced by machine pressed designs resulting in more cost savings. The control feed bolts were replaced by a push feed design like the British Enfield model which remains one of the smoothest bolt actions of all time.
Some people believe that these Post 64 rifles were second-rate compared to the Pre 64 Winchesters. It is true that the changes resulted in less hands-on craftsmanship, but the modern production methods were also used by Remington, Ruger and Savage arms at the time. The Winchester rifles remained the front runner in accuracy and looks than their competitors.
Knocking the post 1964 model’s action and finish has been a popular sport for years, in fact it is a very well-made action, and for some purposes it is better than the pre 1964 design. Winchester did heed the complaints from its customers and in 1968 announced a redesigned rifle and what a superb rifle it was, for these improved Model 70’s had superior bolts and receivers in addition to a reshaped walnut stock with handsome checkering resulting in fine sporting rifles that are beautifully well balanced, accurate and retained the old-world craftsmanship that Winchesters were famous for, and their loyal customers expected. Winchesters have consistently escalated in value in the used gun market and are the most sought after at gun shows and estate sales.
Sales of the pre 1964 rifles were never really that great, even in the boom years from 1945~1955 simply because Winchester could not produce these superb rifles fast enough at a competitive cost. Far from being a failure though, the post 1964 rifles outsold the previous model by a considerable margin. From a business standpoint, the only mistake Winchester made was modernizing their factories about twenty years too late.
Great post!
My Pop had a Winchester Pre 64 Model 70 in 243 with stainless steel Bull Barrel. He regretted letting it go. So did I. It was real heavy is what I remember. 1989 was when he parted with it. Had a fixed 10 power scope on it. My uncle shot a Ground Hog with it at over a quarter mile. Would hold a dime size 3 shot group at 100 yards.
One of your best videos yet! Thanks.
More great information. Thanks!
Rick - you're as constant as the sun; thanks as always.
I didn't realize until I saw your all your videos that the history of bolt action rifles can pretty much be summed up as the history of the Mauser action! What a feat of engineering that more than a hundred years later it is still the model to copy for everyone. Really enjoy your discussion of these wood and metal beauties. There's something aesthetically pleasing about these sleek rifles that more modern counterparts lack. If you ever have the time, could you discuss the different styles of stocks-- wood ones of course!-- from your collection? Perhaps some of your favourites?
You're right about the Mauser - a towering achievement ; your idea about stocks is excellent! Will do. Thanks!
Can't talk bolt fun history, without mentioning the Lee Enfield rifles. Although the majority of bolt guns took a lot from Mauser action, not all did in fact.
functor1, a rifle that is going to be used to kill folks and protect your life at the same time better damn well be perfect when it functions. Hence, the 98 Mauser. I don't shoot PF actions because they invariably don't eject well.
does the vetterli not count? or the odd post US civil war experimental 58 cal bolt actions?
I have a 1984 model 70 in 257 roberts. Absolutely love it
Rare and valuable...as you know👍
I watch many different gun reviews on you tube. Your content is top notch and broken down so people like my self can easily understand it. Your kind and patient delivery sets you head and shoulders above many other gun content creators. You put a focus on history, craftsmanship, and outstanding quality. Thank you for being you.
I recently inherited a 1947 Winchester model 70 in 30:06. The gun was originally purchased by a family member who was a returning P.O.W. As his deer rifle in Frankfort KY. I fired the gun once as a young man, but it looks as new. The quality of the gun speaks for its self. My gun has a Lyman Peep sight that was inleted in to the stock. Was the Lyman sight a factor option? And if so how common are they?
I would let you borrow it if you like.
God bless you.
Jim
Hi Jim - Thank you for your so kind and inspiring words. I'll keep going!
Your rifle is the kind everyone wants : a Model 70 of that vintage in such condition is a dream to own. Many owners installed the Lyman Peep - a superb sight. I'm not aware of the factory installing them. Your offer to let me use your rifle is truly touching. I hope to meet you in person one day; yet I feel we know one another already. God Bless you and your family. : )
They did come with a factory Lyman peep sight I have one on my 1955 pre64 in 30-06 and it was an option you could get at that time.
The Master's Peace. Truth in your perspective and presentation. Thank You.
Belted Brass
Thank you 🙏
Collections bring back fond memories. But we must also realize that some beautiful new rifles are just possibly going to eclipse the history and grandeur of these past. Nothing is so constant as change. There are some newly built rifles that have a story that practically tell themselves. I have worked on some prototype rifles. Go look at The Complete Rifle Book. By the third edition there are some photos of rifles that have a rich heritage that has been honored by new rifles that are incredibly accurate and lovely, and tough! FN and the current suppliers and Workman and Women are actually making a history that would make Jack O’Connor and many others delighted that now are off to the Happy Hunting Grounds. I knew enough of those old famous people to be certain they wanted their legacies to last far into the future! The Model 70 current Rifle is a real Tribute to lasting Quality. Brandon O Connor has allowed many to shoot the now famous Number Two .270. The recent Tribute and Custom Tribute would impress Jack and his wife Eleanor. That Number 2 Model 70 is worth a fortune! But
I and others own the commerative Edition. Finally, I know young people that own very recently built Model 70 Featherweights that someday will be precious things stored in modern Treasure Chests. Let us pray that the Circle of Life continues to include wildlife, fine crafted items, and people who appreciate them.
Hi David - poetic and wise, experienced and true - you write well my friend. The circle never ends.
thanks for the video, just found a pre-64 .270 and am very excited to shoot it (literally found it in a closet at my grandpa's place i just moved into. Place has barely been touched since he passed 23 years ago. Couple shotguns and a nice Beretta Brevet 418 1948 as well)
My goodness Joe - just about everyone dreams of something like that happening. Fantastic! A pre-64 and the Beretta is something as well. I reached in old closets as well and had tremendous good fortune : dusty mops and brooms and a couple shower bars. Not much shooting joy there. Ha! Anyway - good on you and enjoy the guns.
Thank you for your quick response you are a gentleman.
Nice video, a few corrections though, some to the comments already posted. The coned breech of the pre-64 M70 was borrowed from the springfield. The extractor on the pre- 64 WILL snap over a loose loaded round, the round doesn't have to come from the magazine.(almost strictly a Mauser feature) The trigger on pre and post 64 M70's were virtually identical. The large cut-out in the H&H magnums was for clearance, not stripper clips, stripper clips won't hold the larger head of the H&H cartridges. Pre-64s chambered in 30-06 and some .308s were equipped with a stripper clip slots to accept military stripper clips, but they were not the large cut-out the H&H's used. I have 3 M70's, 1 pre-64('55) and 2 post ('73 model and '92 model). Never had a failure of any of them. I don't have a late model ("classic") but would like to get one. The new classic, is really a marriage of the pre and post -64. It uses the forged and more accurately heat treated receiver of the post 64, the guide lug of the post 68, and the more accurately machined 2-piece bolt of the post 64, but went back to the big controlled round feed extractor and the coned springfield breech of pre-64 fame. Then they added the new MOA trigger, which I haven't tried yet.... Love my Winchesters.....
Hi Darryl, Thanks so much for writing! Glad you have 3 of those great rifles. I was offered a 257 Roberts recently and stupidly paused to think....gone.... people write me that the Classics are excellent; some of the accuracy reports for the WSM editions are astonishing. The pre and post 64s are all very fine rifles - I like them all. Thanks for writing!
Until I carried my model 70 to a gunsmith for a trigger job I didn't know they came from the factory with a trigger that was adjustable down from 7 pound pull to a 3 pound pull. I actually had mine set at 2 pounds which I think improved my own accuracy.
Wonderful information once again , we all appreciate you and your knowledge very much 👍👍👍👍👍
Love my Post-64 model 70s. ± 6 or 7 counting my sears 53 30-06s.
After seeing the post 64 model 70 and the Remington 700, I think the Bergara B14 bolt looks just like the Winchester and it’s recoil lug is like the Remington. Interesting combination. Thank you for all your insight, and your longer videos are definitely my favorite!
Always a good feeling reading from you Joe!
The Remington 721 came out before the 700 and competed directly with the Winchester 70. The 721 came out after the model 30 in 1948.
Thanks for writing Jason. I like the 721 - just came across one the other day in fine condition. Very clean design and stock.
You're welcome. Thanks for the videos. I have 2 721's in 270 and 30/06. Very accurate rifles. I also have pre 64 model 70's as well. Very accurate and well made rifles for sure. The Browning Safari with it's FN Belgian action is also a fantastic rifle. I have a few of them also. I love the older classic rifles. As you stated a lot of the work on those rifle's was hand fitted.
I have a 70’s model 70 that has the Monte Carlo stock. Chambered in 7mm mag. I love it
You bet - can't go wrong with those.
The pre 64s are great but the post 64s are not that bad, my first model 70 was a post 64 and I have never had a problem.
I agree Gino; I have one in .308 and it is excellent. Only comparing to the pre-64 makes the post 64 seem like less. The Remington 700 is more or less the same as the post 64 Win. - and it is a legend.
I had a 1965 mod 70 in 7mm Rem caliber and it was junk, the wood to metal fit was horrible and it wouldn't shoot a 4" group. They also floated the barrel so they didn't have to fit the stock to the barrel. A couple years later they started building the mod 70 pretty good again but the early post 64 model 70's were not good guns.
Liked most of this. The Enfield of U.S. military use was the "P17" in .30-06 the "P14" being the rifles in .303 made for sale to the British. I would like to hear the designers of the trigger, and safety mentioned, they were the real genies at Winchester.
I did very much enjoy your economics lesson. Many guys my age (old enough to remember the switch over, and some) wish that Winchester had kept the lux version alongside the new model, but it took one look at the numbers to show how silly that thought was.
The cutout under the scope ring on the Enfield is for striper clips. A fast way to load the mag.
Thanks Steve! Now...to find the clips. I'm sure they are around somewhere.
On dangerous game cartridges that coned breach on the model 70 is very important for feeding. For example, 458 win mag with its round nose bullet can hit the rear of the barrel and not feed into the chamber, ie; the Ruger 77. You'll be glad you had a Winchester when facing a charging Grizzly or African buffalo.
I agree - that no-so-obvious advantage can save lives.
That cut out on the Remington 700 is for stripper clips. You sometimes run into Win Model 70's with that as well. The competition high power shooters back in the day wanted to be able to rapidly reload in competition. This was back when Iron Sights were the norm even in 1000 yard matches.
Excellent information! Thank you!
Fine and informative video.
Your love for firearms is so evident, and your unassuming demeanor is very pleasant.
Thank you John.
A brief discussion of the Remington Model 721 thrown in before the Model 700 would have been very informative to your subscribers. Excellent video with really interesting facts. I am of the opinion that the "free floating" barrel rage of this day and time is a lot to do about nothing. I've owned several pre64's and I've never had a problem obtaining 1" groups at a 100yds.
You're right about the 721. I used to have them around and felt bad for not having one on the table. I like their spartan appearance and even the bolt is a very clean design. Glad you have a pre-64. Thanks for writing.
I’ve just put a deposit on a CRF mod 70 Classic Super Express in .375 Holland and Holland magnum. Made in New Haven only been zeroed from brand new. Was a hard find in England
My neighbor gave me a1964 model 70 chambered in 225 Win. Overall it’s in very good shape considering it’s 59 years old. The stock needs to be refinished, looks like someone tried to clear coat it. Even though the 225 Win ammo hasn’t been mass produced in years it can’t bring myself to rechamber to another 22cal or replace the barrel. So I’ll hand over $75+ for a box of ammo and invest in reloading dies.
Good decision - that's a valuable rifle - sought by collectors. I find the ammo here and there from time to time : )
The cut out on the Rem 700 you references to, was so that you could load the rifle with a stripper clips.
Thanks Eric!
As to the Enfield P14 action. It started as the P13 in 1913 with the intention of replacing the Enfield rifle in 303 British. When WW1 broke out experimentation og the new 284 Enfield cartridge was not completed, and the action was adapted to take the rimmed 303 British cartridge, and renamed the pattern 14.Long story short, production and supply were a problem and so manufacturers were contracted out side of Britain. Remington was one of the manufacturers of pattern 14 rifles. In 1917 when the USA entered the war, Remington built the P17 rifle chambered in 30 06.
One of the main differences between the P14/17 action and the Mauser action, is the cocking mechanism. The Mauser cocks on opening the bolt while the Enfield design cocks on closing.
I have a model 70 300 Winchester Magnum with a 760... serial number. I’m pretty sure it’s post 64 but there is no bolt/pin holding the action to the shell on the side. There are screws for iron sights beneath a scope that was on it when we bought it. There is a bottom plate for the mag spring to be removed and/or replaced. The bottom of the grip is painted black, tied off by a pained ribbon. There is ribbon checkering with “saint” symbols left uningraved along the checkering. I have no idea what to think. The shell is also covering the left side of the gun so that all I see is Winchester and the faint outlines of the top of ingraved letters bellow, hidden by the wood. It might be a no-brained or obvious but I haven’t been able to find anything definite. Please help!
Hi Camden - If the bolt is clean on the right - round and nothing attached to it straight to the locking lugs at the front of the bolt - it is post 64. If there is a flatish part attached to the bolt - on the right - it is pre-64. Hope this helps. : )
@@UnitedStatesOfGunsthat does help a lot. Thank you very much!
Excellent video, I worked as a gunsmith assistant as a kid, you did a great job have own and shot pre 64 and post, yes there is a big difference, pros and cons...actually I like the newer FN Winchester 70...sorry but there not bad at all....like my 1944 Winchester M1 Garand the best....Shoe
Hi Robert - I agree - the FN Winchester is excellent. Thanks for thew note.
I have owned a post 64 model 70 in 7mm magnum since 1974. I have taken everything from woodchucks to moose with it. I did shoot a lot of targets with it as well to the point of burning out the barrel. I had a Shiela barrell installed and accuracy is back to dead on. Other than the barrel I've had no problem. The controlled round feeding is silly hype in my opinion as my post 64 will cycle rounds without fail inverted 180 degrees. I admit I am a hunter not a collector.
Hi Burt - You're right - CRF is more of a theoretical consideration; I've found the post 64 rifles to be superb.
Being a huge Winchester 70 fan, I've owned and used all sorts of 70's over the years. My experience with 70's has been that the Pre-'64's are great rifles but they're all way over priced these days. The initial Post-'64's were a bit of a drag because of corners that were cut to save money. I would argue that even though the Post-64 were not as nice as the Pre-64 rifles, they were still a better design than the 700's. One of the best hunting rifles I've ever used was a late '90's Black Shadow which was Winchester's utility rifle with a matte black finish and polymer stocks. The one I owned had the smoothest action I've ever felt, no matter what rifle I've compared it to. The 90's through '06 Black Shadows can be picked up for $300 and represent one of the best values on the hunting rifle market today. Currently, I own a pair of US made FN/Winchester 70's in 7x57 Featherweight and 375H&H Safari. Both rifles have the updated Pre-64 actions in blue with solid walnut stocks, exactly what one would expect from the 70. And, as you mentioned, they are exceptionally accurate. I've never found a Post-64 that didn't perform well but Winchester should have designated them with another model number and simply produced both. Charge more for the 70 and outsell the 700 with the bargain model...
Hi Paul, I agree with everything you wrote. I have a hunch that marketing for the plethora of rifles and actions from all over the world has obscured the current Model 70 : which, dollar for dollar, remains probably the best rifle on the market. We should all buy them before they discontinue them again. Your comments on the post 64 push feed are spot on as well - grossly undervalued. They always were and still are superb rifles and actions; they just were not pre-64's and the market unfairly recoiled from them. I have the .308 XTR you saw on the video and a .270 XTR as well - which shoots groups at 200 yards that look like 100 yard groups. The original pre-64 is a legend now and if they discontinue the re-introduced model - there will likely be value surges for the originals and the newer versions. I'm going to head out and buy a new Model 70.
Hi again Paul - I just checked the line up and I'm going to buy the Alaskan in 30-06 ; they even have the rear sight on a machined band - excellent. They should put iron sights on all of them; scopes are great of course but irons are as well.
USOG - Yeah, my 375H&H has factory irons as you'd expect but my 7x57 is a victim of the modern perspective that hunters must use scopes in order to hit their target... :(
I grew up using irons and they're useful for keeping your feet grounded. I've helped a number of scope users track down deer that were 300+ yards Hail Mary's. My 7x57 is zeroed at 100yds and I know the trajectories out to 200 yds for the 139/140g bullets I use. Since I don't practice past 200yds, I range my field when I take the stand for landmarks. My deer drop when shot and the most I've ever had too track one is 60-75yds.
Hope you enjoy your soon to be Alaskan with factory irons, a classic touch from a passing era. Fewer and fewer hunters use irons unless they're using their grandfather's '94, lol!
Take care and good luck with your hunting trips this year!
Paul Simmons If my Model 70 Classic came with iron sights I would definitely use them. I grew up shooting rifles with open sights and have dropped deer dead in their tracks at 200 yards. Age is catching up with me now so I kinda need a scope.
I was lucky enough to.knherit my grandfathers Model 70 243. Purch as set new in 1968... its a post 64.
Its a beautiful rifle.
That is a beautiful rifle - and a great cal.
I’m re-watching this. It seems to me that if they’d only made one change (the action) and not also made the stock cheaper at the same time, Winchester wouldn’t have experienced as much damage to their reputation.
I don’t know who this guy is but I love this channel!
Hello HammerK99 - Thank you so much for your kind words. I'm glad you're here. I wish you all the best, Mike
Subscribed. Very good show. Glad i found this channel. Just bought a model 70 today and was doing some research. This helped. Thank you
Great rifle Dude - you'll like it; can't go wrong with a Model 70 and always a market for them if you decide to switch horses.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns like you i collect rifles lol. Ive wanted the carlos hathcock rifle for quite awhile now and for 375 bucks it was a steal.
I like a floor plate on my gun's. it makes it nice to unload the gun.
The square cutout is for loading with a stripper clip.
❤very informative and well said many thanks for your knowledge ❤
Good video Sir. Thanks for the video and sharing your knowledge and your rifles .
Glad to be of service.
I have heard from several people that the push feed M70 was a very accurate rifle. One gent suggested that Winchester should not have called the push feed a M70, because of the high regard the M70 name inspired. He thought that the push feed should have had its own designation and built in addition to the M70 rather than replace it. I guess hind sight is 20 20, and thanks to Browning, we have the option again to get the control round feed. I have one, made in Portugal and it is excellent!
I like the idea of a different model # designation. Your friend is right. They should have moved the 70 to the custom shop and played the new - and extremely accurate - model 701 or something on the main stage. We've come full circle though - and your M70 is a s good as any ever made.
i have the exact feather weight with the African express stock. XTR. I can tell also with the bolt plugs. They dont come like that anymore. I shoot mine often. 30-06. mine was 77' year.
Those are excellent rifles - and a fine vintage. I find the XTRs are undervalued in the market. You've got a keeper - but you know that. Thanks for the note.
Fantastic content again. I very much enjoy the FN South Carolina produced winchester m70's, the super grade is fantastic. Not quite in the the leaque of that beautiful 1947 though.
You're so right - a friend has a super grade in 25-06 - the wood looks exhibition to me and out of that rifle the bullets have eyes.
Sorry, I think the Model 70 classic is a better designed rifle than the pre-64, for a number of reasons.
I have a "modern" 70 in a classic pre-64 version and the weapon says that it is made in the USA by Winchester. It is one of the first batches that arrived in Spain. Maybe now FN makes them. I haven't had a chance to see one of those.
Thanks again
Excellent rifle by any measure.
Thanks for another outstanding video! Love a pre 64 model 70. Have a lightweight in .308 and a standard in .284 win. Two of my favorites! Thanks again
You have 2 of the finest. That .308 is as good as it gets for handling - and the .284 cartridge is one of those haunting rounds; I've owned a couple - a Cooper and a Win. 88 - sold them both and the cartridge just kept coming back to my thinking. So I have an old Savage 99 in .284. Great round. And thank you. : )
Also have a 1965 model 100 in .284 Win. Hard to find
They say the new Model 70s from Portugal are as good as or better than the Pre-64s. Technically, they may be correct. Some people wouldn't see any difference. Just like I can't tell the difference between fine wine and table wine. To me, the nuances of the wood, the wood finish, and the bluing are huge and I'll take the Pre-64!
The square cut out is for clip feed rounds
Just found your site. Really enjoyed this video, your enthusiasm and knowledge,I found fascinating. I have subscribed and will be watching many more. Many thanks and well done.
Thank you Paul!
I watched this with my Springer Spaniels. I just had to get out my pre 64 and my XTR, both in .270 Win and follow along. Now, the dogs are bouncing off the walls.
The "cut-out" at the rear of the receiver is for a military stripper clip.
I need the clips : )
Same ones used on the Springfield 1903....5 round stripper. Good for when the zombies attack! @@UnitedStatesOfGuns
I had a Remington 700 SS 7mm mag the trigger issue was not good in fact it would fire when you touched the safety.
All my shooting life I've longed for a pre64 model70. Only problem is, I'm a lefty. Problem solved when USRA came along with a left hand CRF action. It may not be a pre64, but it's a very nice rifle in my estimation. And of course I had to order it in .270Win.👍
Hi Mike - wise choice and wise decision. One day, they will stop making these and then everyone will wonder how they could have let so much time go by - with what they wanted and needed right in front of them - but they did not reach out...and then it was gone. That, my friend, is a keeper. Mike
I didn’t search through all the comments to see if you had an answer but the square cut-out under the rear scope mount is for clip feeding or clip loading the rounds.
Thanks Matt!
I have a 1957 M70 in 30-06, one of my birth year Winnies. Looks like the one you show here. Great shooter, especially after I put a limb saver on it. 180 gr packs more punch than I want to endure for more than a few rounds. ;)
-The Pattern 14 was a .303 made under contract in the US for Great Britain because they couldn't meet demand with their limited Lee-Enfield mfg capacity.
-The US Model of 1917 (aka P17) was the 30-06 version made by Remington, their subsidiary Eddystone & Winchester to augment US arms due to limited Springfield 03 production capacity.
I have a sported 03 (a sweet moa shooter) and want an unmolested one as well as a M1917.
Great vintage Model 70 Hayseed - they don't get any better.
Very good orientation and illustration of the pre and post '64 Winchester Model 70's. The first example manufactured in 1948 appeared to have a 1903A3 military barrel, which is perfectly fine. If that's true it's just another intriguing detail of the evolution of that rifle. At least the '70's produced today are more similar in design to the original pre-64 rifles. I suppose the most significant minus would be cheap materials. One thing which comes to mind are various alloys for specific parts. Although, a Sauer 202 Highland I sold 4 years ago was just under 5 pounds and all alloy, with flawless performance. More interesting is the fact that the MSR of nearly $4000.00 indicated it was not only insanely over priced due to the name behind the quality, but the alloys do not seem to impede the function of the action, do not freeze like steel while hunting and consistently (for specific firearms) do not reduce values as indicated in the blue book of gun values. Finally, you have reminded me FN purchased Winchester, and I would be extremely enthusiastic about barreled actions or complete Model 70 rifles produced in Belgium! I've driven to that country somewhat frequently while on contract in the EU and regret not visiting the pre-War and current FN manufacturing facilities.
Thanks Russell - I didn't know there was a Highland model - that, to me, is the one to own. The chassis in aluminum is ideal.
DefinItely the best hunting rifle I have owned...although the wood was very and a scratch on one if those equals dollars. Just wish I found other creative ways to cover financial obligations, tax among the more pressing issue.
Ah yes....tax...my favorite. I hope you get another 202 soon.
I believe the new Model 70’s made and assembled by FN in Portugal are some of the finest rifles ever commercially made. I no longer miss the pre-64 versions.
That is great news Van. I'll keep a watch for one on the used racks.
Thanks for putting together another excellent comparison video!
I have a 1980 xtr (i bought brand new)in .270, I love it deer hate it. the 700 rem ruined the m70 BUT it still has the great M70 safety which I love same as my new m70 that was made in usa but put together in portugal w/crf that is in 7-08 and featherlight also a great gun. Thanks for putting out great vids
Hi Jon - I like your M70 a lot. Actually I have 2! Such great rifles - and you're right - that safety - superb. Glad the vids are okay.
You need to cover the new model 70 that’s made by FN that is made like the old “Pre ‘64” but may have some differences. Very important to compare this version with the original Pre ‘64. Please make one. Thank you, Sir. I consider myself educated in firearms but you have many I’m. Or familiar with. I enjoy your videos and learn a bunch. “The more I learn, the more I realize I how ignorant I really am.”
Thank you for your kind words. I'm pretty sure we made such a video - but I'll check. I learn every day that I will run out of time long before I learn much about anything; but I try : )
*QUALITY FIREARMS SUCH AS THE MODEL 70 HAS ITS PLACE AND SHOULD NEVER BE CHANGED FOR ANY REASON...WE COULDN'T BE MORE DISGUSTED WITH WINCHESTER AS WE'VE MOVED AWAY FROM PURCHASING ANY OTHER FIREARMS FROM WINCHESTER!* *I WAS HOPING TO OBTAIN ONE, BUT WILL REFRAIN FROM THE NEWER ONES!!* *A GREAT RIFLE IN THE .270.* *IF ONLY YOU'D SELL THE ONE YOU'RE HOLDING...WHAT A CATCH, USOG!!*
If only you could reach the factories and multi-nationals - you are 100% correct. They don't seem to understand that we, the shooting public, have a good idea of what's what - more than the consumers of other products. Quality and character matters.
Sadly the guy just going deer hunting is not going to pay 4 X as much for a rifle that will accomplish very little more. Winchester was a mass production company and as the author said they simply could never have competed with the model 700. You just don't sell a lot of high end rifles
Charles Borrelli True, but I would much rather have something my son would be proud to own one day, an heirloom so to speak. Black plastic stocks just look cheap and do absolutely nothing aesthetically for me.
WizardofAhhhs 75 I agree completely. I love my Weatherby hunting rifle. But you and I are the few that buy the higher end guns
I have a 1949 that is tapped and has flat blade set screws in the holes. I just installed Burris scope mount and rings on with no machining.
A better rifle doesn't exist. Different yes - but better : no.
My Mauser fn 30-06 was built by my friend. Hand made walnut stock. Extremely accurate and very powerful of course.
Wish I could see it.
About as powerful as every other 30-06 in existence. No more, no less.