Something they could do is have the villain still experience consequences of what happened earlier in the fight even as they go through different forms, or make the transformation itself come with a drawback that contributes to their downfall.
Yeah that'd be a lot better, instead of fully healing all the previous wounds. That way you can still wear the villains down but keep the transformations.
I don't think it's an issue inherently for the final boss to be getting stronger even if it's unrealistic it just often goes along with other problems. I think the bigger issue and you did present it is that there isn't a goal for other characters to be working towards which makes fights feel hollow and directionless. it could be the side characters need to 'stall for goku' or whatever so long as there's something meaningful and measurable it can be just as satisfying. for it to feel satisfying there just needs to be a goal and arc in the fight. a villain getting worn down is inherently a goal to work towards and does give characters some sense of progress and so it does fix some of the final fight issues but it's not the only way. Freeza is a meme for this trope but his fight is actually done very well even if it's just prophecy fulfilled at the end and goku just wins in the end there's a lot of rising and falling actions and goals for characters in the mean time.
Good insights. Yeah having a clear goal for characters to work towards is a really key part of making a successful fight. I really like your point about it could be something as simple as "stall villain for X amount of time". I see this as what makes a fight interesting is clear goal -> clear actions -> clear outcome/consequences, with the final being the most important. With the stall example, if the characters want to stall a villain, they do this, but then it doesn't amount to anything, that's what makes the fight feel unsatisfying and their actions pointless.
Even if side characters have nothing to do what you said about They're needing to be little goals in the fight is inherently very important too Final villain fights Look at Ichigo versus aizen where the main protagonist is not working towards anything the villain is not even working towards anything they're just having a brawl A mindless narratively empty brawl Heck literally all the hero is doing is making the enemy stronger and minor spoilers I won't say any names but if you've read the manga you'll know what I'm talking about Near the end of bleach Most of the side characters With the three most popular captains leading Go up against an opponent who has the ability to grow stronger the more damage she takes And throughout that fake they completely lack a narrative direction and go in the fight they just keep attacking an opponent that grows stronger as they attack so all of the heroes are accomplishing is continuously making him stronger and stronger and stronger and no matter how many times they make him stronger their answers just to attack again they never pursue an alternate measure to defeat this boat they never try to do anything like trap him or bind him or seal him away or even just getting him away from the critical battlefield of the final arc And the fight literally has to end with the author basically just giving up realizing that he has now created an opponent The heroes can never defeat because now he's way too freakishly strong So the author just kills off that character in some arbitrary unsatisfying way that didn't even involve a single hero and in a way that completely negates the entire purpose of the fight making it so that nothing narratively would have been lost if the fight had never even happened at all
this is a big problem in video games too, phase 2 and 3 of a boss getting progressively harder makes sense from a “this is a video game” perspective but narratively and emotionally are pretty frustrating. by contrast i think zelda botw and totk does it really well as completing the story makes the final boss easier like everyone is working towards a common goal and making meaningful contributions
I really agree with this, I think it's a pervasive problem throughout a lot of popular media. A lot of writers conflate bigger with better and lose sight of what makes a fight compelling. I haven't played legend of zelda since ocarina of time but I'll have to check it out.
Y'know, this is why Sukuna's fight has been working out well despite the stupid "Sukuna Cycle" meme. They're chipping him down like a goddamn Raid Boss battle, down to optimally forcing him to switch forms, negate his second mouth, destroying his arms, negating his reverse curse energy output, debuffing him to hell and back in any way they can to have a chance to win, just recently Yuji leveled up enough to unlock a new talent tree and it's doing his damnest to use the skills against Sukuna.
I completely agree. I actually am a massive fan of the current fight, despite what some fans think. I think JJK in general does fights really well, it reminds me a lot of HxH. I want to make a video on it but I'm waiting until the current fight is completely wrapped up.
I never liked how aizen Is throwing a tantrum during his final fight because there's just no reason for him to be mad at all even though he's being knocked around his attacks and effective he is still at no point in that fight losing the fight because he's immortal And his opponent isn't So there's just no in universe reason why he should be getting all pouty throwing a tantrum like a little kid because he's guaranteed to win even the hidden trap that ends up sealing him away only works because he threw such a tantrum So really he should have just remained calm and just shrugged and laughed it off as the hero beats him up
Yeah I didn't really like this either. I guess in the story it's because his ego can't take it but I'm not a fan of the FGT at all it felt like a cheap and convenient way to take out Aizen.
6/10 video. Get batter audio equipment and try writing a more thorough script so there arent so many awkward pauses. Maybe get a channel mascot so you're recognizable. Ask an artist to better render it for you. But I can see where you were going and it's not bad
Thanks a lot man I really appreciate the feedback. I have 1 more video already coming but I definitely want to improve and I'll take your comments to heart. Agree my mic and editing isn't the best but I'll try and improve them as I get more comfortable making videos. Also yeah not having a script was a mistake I thought I could speak without one but I realised after this video that it's really needed... Hopefully my 3rd video will flow a bit better but I'm going to always write a script from now on.
@@Mixinnitup why does he need a mascot?? This is such a copy paste formular that I kinda get annoyed seeing everywhere. Not every video channel need one. May be channels for funny stuff and young audience need one, but certainly this kind of content doesn't need a stupid mascot. A better edditing would be ideal, but it also increase cost and effort, but I guess he is gonna improve over time.
Wow after doing the math I concluded that bleach has 24 consecutive fights nonstop no time to breathe no development of story Almost all of it in the same location
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt And I definitely feel like bleach was one of the worst with it As I can't think of any other anime that I've watched where that many fights happen in a row with nothing in between take yu yu hakusho Which would have Four to 6 fights in a row And then take a break do some story give everyone a breather before the next set of four to six fights dragon Ball Z usually get fairly good about spacing out its fights although the anime admittedly due to needing a bunch of failure to avoid catching up with the source material would stretch out fights far longer than they were originally intended to be with the fight against Frieza being legendarily long with four transformations and then his final form having three separate percentages he uses his fight ends up being so long that a literal season of the show that you buy at a store is just his fight there's literally a namic saga season and then the frieza fight season naruto used to be really good with spacing out its fights right up until the war ark at the end of the second show where the warrant just devolved into non-stop fight after fight after fight against opponents that the main cast already killed
I feel like Bleach is the biggest culprit here, I mean how many fights in bleach are actually really doing something for the plot, for character development. A huge part of Bleach fights are like this: A: My swords ability makes you blablabla, now you're done for B: Oh yeah? Maybe I should tell you MY swords ability! It's blablabla, so it has no affect on me, now YOU'RE done for! repeat 100 times until someone "dies" but acually doesn't and comes back later.
You said it perfectly lol. In the early seasons I preferred Bleach, but yeah later on it's just madness. Hacks abilities trumping hacks abilities, zero consistency to the power scaling, and endless deus ex machinas.
A big frustration to me is that shonen anime always put good fights before good writing. As such, the "various forms" trope is more about spectacle than substance.
I very much disagree with the bleach one you say that the side characters had no affect on him and for the most part that’s true but aizen would’ve won that fight but it’s actually kisuke who dealt the final blow by using the kido in his fight w isshin and yoruichi and it’s likely they were in on the plan and just trying to help kisuke put the kido into aizens body ichigo was literally just there to severely weaken aizen until the kido took effect so yeah idk bout that one
Hey you're right that Aizen was actually beaten by the kido, but I see this as a technicality because Kubo didn't want to straight up kill Aizen so he had to seal him away. But narratively it doesn't really change anything about the broader roles of the characters.
It's been a while but I think it's actually AI art. I used it in some of my earlier videos, but some viewers weren't fans of it so I've stopped using AI images now.
It has always frustrated me how anime continues to make the same major mistake over and over by allowing their villains to be so overpowered that none in the main cast can compete with them which is fine on its own because the heroes can grow and match that power but then the author decides to make the villain even stronger and then even stronger and then even stronger and critically this growth by the villain is done too quickly giving the heroes no chance to catch up until finally when it comes time for the villain to be defeated the author has nothing set up for it no epic bottle because the heroes can't compete so he has to do Deus ex Machina To give the main character suddenly some completely unearned power boost that somehow makes the main bill in weak in comparison Which leads into another problem I have with many anime is that too many fights become one sided it's not all that interesting watching someone be unable to even affect their opponent because their opponent has some hacks ability anime As a style is inherently a really good way to do great back and forth battles real fights were the two sides have to compete and deploy their arsenal of skills to try to get a leg up on one another but so few authors are willing to actually do that they have the villain dominate effortlessly than an unearned power up what's the hero dominate effortlessly and frankly I find that incredibly boring especially since the dominating side then just toys with their opponent and ultimately we never actually get a battle I also deeply despise hacks abilities that completely negate opponents tool set The final villain of bleach and his almighty It's a strong ability but it's an ability that makes any fight it's involved in it A snore fest because the opponent can't do anything any move they make just gets completely negated it would be like watching a boxing match but only one of the two boxers is allowed to throw punches it's not that fun where's the competition hacks abilities ruin competition and they ruin fights a power should never negate other powers and every power should have an inherent weakness
You hit the nail on the head 100% perfectly. I still love anime but my interest has definitely waned in recent years due to a lot of these frustrations, the recent isekai trend has made things even worse just in the opposite direction. I wish there were more action anime like Hunter x Hunter.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I definitely agree isekai Has basically ruined anime for me I haven't watched a new one in years specifically due to it an overpowered villain that needs a Deus ex Machina To defeat is boring But an overpowered hero who never needs to put in even a modicum of effort is so much worse I definitely feel it is aimed at a much younger audience than anime of the past used to be And I hate to say it but I feel like it's aimed at specifically losers the way it portrays the protagonist is just being an incredibly awesome guy who doesn't need to to put in any effort to beat the bad guy or win the girls I feel like something for those people who aren't doing very well in life to project themselves into and fantasize about them basically being perfect without actually having to put in the work with being perfect and not going to lie it kind of pisses me off because I feel like it's sending such a horrible message to these unpopular individuals whereas old anime at least showed that if you want to be the best you have to train you have to work at it now isekai almost seems to say hard work is a bad thing as the Uber Chad protagonist who never needs to put in anything but the Smallest of efforts is actively crushing individuals who do work their asses off
@@yami122 I really don't understand the appeal of isekai - it feels so boring and bland to me. How can there be an interesting story when the characters are so ridiculously overpowered? I read the mushoku tensei light novel because the main character in that is at least fairly balanced and I mainly just wanted to try a light novel. And I'm watching Solo Leveling purely for the dark souls aesthetic.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt From a narrative standpoint isekai The brake Merely if not every important rule to effective storytelling the main character is too important to the world and overpowered But without a reason to their importance Or a reason to their power in fact the main characters are always Undeserving of their power Almost all of them were inherently lazy And were for no reason handed their power on a silver platter that no one else in history has ever had they break the rules of their own stories Wielding powers and abilities that are usually impossible or inaccessible to anyone else they completely lack a hero's journey Or any meaningful story being told at all Nothing of importance happens from first to last chapter or episode except maybe a few more girls will Cling to them And that's another issue with that style is it so often combines the harem genre into it and extremely poorly those that do have unappealing incredibly shallow and incredibly cliche women that possess only one defining personality trait and yet they all obsess over a boy who's honestly not very interesting of a person with the only thing about the main character that might attract someone's attention being there overpoweredness but that's usually not why the girl is into them it's some poorly defined they just Are because it's the main character with an extremely shallow reason that just doesn't justify a little harem would form around one of that world's most boring and unambitious people And the story is also weirdly seemed to discourage hard work As those who work hard are constantly humiliated by the hero who hasn't worked a day in their life but just has some power whether an author intends to or not every piece of fiction is saying something it has some message and the message of that style of anime is clearly don't work hard to succeed god will intervene and make you a success no matter how little effort you put Into your life with the style being so popular With Japanese children makes me wonder if the next Generation of Japanese is gonna grow up to be incredibly lazy and incredibly bitter because no God did not intervene and give them magical success and a harem of women obsessed over them despite them being very unattractive men
I previously enjoyed the One Piece match ups with the crew each fighting different people, but I think there's a couple of key problems I've noticed recently: 1. It's becoming too formulaic now, and there's a real lack of suspense in some of the recent fights where they've become too predictable. 2. The crew dynamic has suffered as Luffy has become more prominent, to the point where a chunk of the crew are becoming increasingly sidelined as the gap between them and Luffy grows. 3. The haki system was a great idea initially, but I think Oda has gone down the wrong route with it as he's developed it further, especially advanced conquerors haki.
to add to your point about the bleach characters being so worthless Not only were they worthless and contributed nothing to the battle but they took two years of being worthless a full year was wasted on the low tier fighters fighting over four pillars that made reading the material week to week agonizingly boring watching fight after fight after fight of nobody's and then after the nobody's were all swept aside the top 4 took nearly another year about six months only for the top three spite to be Utterly pointless when the main villain just One shots everybody completely negating their victories and making it as if the top three might as well not even have existed Then another several months of the main Antagonist towing with some Fights that he barely puts effort into And that only ever served to make him stronger And then another month or two of the main villain just walking around chasing some school children only for the main hero to roll in and then curb stomp his opponent in a few chapters no epic fight just occurred stomp a boring curb stomp whereas you stated the main villain didn't even have the ability to fight back so two years of hype for the final battle just for it to be a boring curb Stomp Also of note is that it was two years of nothing but fight No time in between the fights no real story development no world building no new locations no time to build tension It is a common rule in any form of storytelling that high peaks of excitement must be met with low valleys of calm there needs to be time in between the hype In order for hype and anticipation to build if you try to have hype nonstop just one fight after another it stops being hyper it just becomes repetitive and people get burnt out at that peak And when you really think about it that two years for us was probably like two hours in Bleach's universe's time since it shows over a dozen fights one after another each taking several weeks Which leads to months of our time only progressing the story's time probably about half an hour since most of these fights are going to be happening at the same time there's only five sets of fights first there's 10 fights with the Nobodies then 4 fights involving the top four Then a point where the fight is the top four ends and then another round with the same top four occurs we're all four fights involved the opponent who was believed to be defeated but they come back after that there's the main antagonist versus almost everybody Then the head captain has a skirmish Followed by a 3 on 1 fight against the main antagonist while the main protagonist fights a separate opponent at the same time then finally the main hero has his final fight I counted 23 fights nonstop And that's just if you consider the battle starting in the fake town But it's even worse if you include the main antagonist base as most of the 10 espada have fights back to back with no real rest though at least the first six have some room to breathe in between fights no not much oh and I forgot about the unfinished fight against number zero so I guess it's 24 so after defeating the top 6 with only short moments to breathe story wise then immediately leaping into 24 consecutive non-stop fights
It's not a problem. Especially with the Aizen fight. Narratively, Aizen is supposed to evolve into a greater being. That was his goal in the first place, and that's what the hogyoku does, it makes him evolve. Gin's sacrifice wasn't for nothing. Gin gave Ichigo the opportunity to go and learn the final getugatensho. The reason Aizen evolves is precisely because his life is in danger. That proves that the side characters were actually pushing Aizen to his limits. Each time he's pushed to his limit, he evolves because the hogyoku is compelled to protect his master through it's master's wishes. The final getugatensho wasn't what defeated Aizen. After getting hit with it, he clearly heals and begins to evolve. He lost because he deep down wanted to be like everyone else. That's why the hogyoku made him lose. All the actions of the side characters in that fight were important to the narrative. The final getugatensho itself is one that people have issue with and I have an issue with it as well due to it not being properly foreshadowed, however, the way characters get stronger in bleach is not the same as typical stories. Characters become stronger by understanding themselves and training in their mental/spiritual space which Ichigo did for three months. Prior to getting that power. The Dangai is already established since the beginning of the show to exist outside the regular flow of space and time having it's own different flow of time. It's how it works in bleach. The Madara one is more accurate to the topic because of obvious reasons. An extremely weak Character defeated the godlike Madara out of nowhere and it served a terrible narrative purpose. If it serves a the narrative in a good way, it's absolutely not a problem. You can't tell people how to write their stories and you also can't tell people what sort of writing to enjoy. If a writer wants his villain to have several final forms then that's what they should do and if his audience loves it, then they love it.
Hey man. Appreciate the thought out response. Definitely don't want to come across as though a story can only be written in one way because of course we want a lot of different stories and characters. I see where you're coming from with Aizen, but I still find the narrative around his evolution disappointing. Let me list out a few reasons: 1. Aizen in his base form is already broken in comparison to the rest of the cast. His zanpakto ability is so absurdly powerful that even setting aside his stats, he can flawlessly handle everyone and even manipulate them to fight each other. 2. Because he's so absurdly powerful, it's a problem when he starts evolving into "transcendent" levels, which ruins the power scale in Bleach in my opinion. It's a typical shonen DBZ-esque power system, without a sense of scale or proportion. 3. Completely agree with the FGT not being foreshadowed, and it speaks to that point I was making that when you introduce characters with such godlike abilities, it requires a deus ex machina to deafeat them, which is unsatisfying. Instead of overpowering an already overpowered character, it would have been better to take the whittling down approach. Or have the characters come up with creative ways to deal with the antagonist. 4. Conceptually I agree with what you said about how characters in Bleach get stronger, but Bleach in general has very poor power scaling, especially characters relative to each other. 5. Aizen being lonely and secretly wanting to lose is a bit of a plot hole for me. It's never hinted at before and is never featured again after. It's just a throwaway comment from Ichigo.
Madara's conclusion is the Best character conclusion for him. He was a human who to be a God, viewed himself as Messiah, The saviour of Shinobi World, but a human playing God, got killed with the Hands of "GOD" (BZ is weak by the way, he is literally the part of Kaguya. The strongest character at that time) It's many time shown how Madara is insecure of his back(also symbolises him trying to do everything rather than leaving it to next Gen/passing The Torch) by Him not able to pee when someone is behind him to His susanoo have no backs but rather 2 faces. Madara isn't someone to get Talk no Jutsu'd and just defeating the enemy isn't a conclusion specially in Naruto where enemies have their strong and seemingly good Ideology. Madara realizing his mistakes when BZ reveal the truth and him finally accepting that he should have "Pass the Torch" like Hashirama is Fitting and Great conclusion.
the problem that the final dangai just comes out of nowhere never gets explored again And provides a power boost that's too ridiculously powerful And it raises quite a few block holes That Y is the main character the only one who can do it Then more importantly why doesn't he just do it again in the final arc That's another thing in the final arc we discover that the main protagonist has been using a fake power all along There's just no way around it is a Deus ex Machina And severely hurts the lore of the story Due to its unexplained details and its lack of exploration and explanation
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Another two problems with Aizen Is that in order to be defeated the author has to completely change his personality He is a schemer and an incredibly intelligent person Being either the first or the second most intelligent person but for basically no reason at all he decides to stop being intelligent He openly admits to it that he's not even going to try to think And that just goes completely against the character's whole personality and point While also making him completely dumb by removing the one thing that made him so interesting to the audience And I'm sorry but intelligence is not something you just Decide not to use I can't all of a sudden be less intelligent than I am I guess I could decide to start making bad decisions but I'm still going to be intelligent enough to be knowing my decisions are bad And why am I doing them And he clearly so greatly enjoys lording his intelligence over others he constantly goes on evil monologs about how he's played people so why would he stop He doesn't gain anything from stopping In fact he's going to enjoy his victory less And he also for no reason at all abandoned his ability to create illusions and becomes a purely brute force fighter which again goes against his whole character his personality and very being his sword creates illusions because he is so inherently deceptive and manipulative that his sword reflected that but he just decides to stop trying with any of it even when he's getting enraged that he's getting punched in the face he never decides to quickly activate his sword well the main heroes looking at him then illusion stabbing him in the back And it was a huge mistake by the author because it made the main billing uninteresting to the point where by the time he loses I didn't even care about the character anymore he was just a dumb angry brute barely different than espada 0 in terms of personality and fighting style and like you said he was already so overpowered that his transformations broke the power scaling of the series even later on in the stories in the Arctic's after this his powers never surpassed except perhaps by the almighty And even then the final biller never hits a point where his energy Can't be sensed and it's a level of power that Is never addressed again characters return to being more or less equal to captains even the characters that are stronger than captains are still in that lead their energies can still be sensed by your average captain and also the day of sex that allowed the main hero to win is just never addressed again it's not going to get used in the final art sorry if that's a spoiler but don't expect to see that again in fact a flashback is going to make it even more confusing because it was always assumed that his dad lost his own power due to using that final form that drains your power but no in the final mark we found out the main heroes dad lost his power over something completely different
@@yami122 All spot on - it's the classic problem of writing a seriously overpowered villain and realising there's no real way of beating them so you have to invent something random to do it. Exactly as you said, it doesn't make sense why Aizen would stop using his illusions when it's his most broken ability. It doesn't make sense why he would never use his bankai, which he definitely would have. And the whole transcendent being thing put the nail in the coffin of the power scaling.
Nah, Madara's conclusion is fitting for him(I ain't going over it how as this video isn't about that) but It's stupid argument that Madara was strong that's he got plot... why would author kill a strong enemy to revive a stronger enemy if they were struggling to kill the 1st one, It's very stupid argument many ppl agreeing doesn't make stuff inheriently RIGHT or WRONG as per Final villain, it was Sasuke and as you said ppl get fatigued and tierd as fight goes on and that's literally what happened.
one of the biggest problems with madaras conclusion Is that the heroes had no part in it they had no agency in his defeat This Villain who was hyped up during the entire war and who This story has been leading to gets offed by someone completely different and not just someone who's different A character who has himself had very little to do with the storyline and has been very irrelevant and has by all evidence appeared to be only a good spy and a very weak character And what's worse is this ending to the fight would have happened even if the heroes had offered no resistance to him so the entire war arc became instantly pointless every hero could have simply decided not to challenge the main villains and the exact same result would have occurred he would have gotten the godly powers and then stabbed in the back
@@yami122 What exactly made you think that Madara is going to be dealt by heros IN NARUTO were majority of time characters get defeated by their hypocrisy I.e. Pain, Obito some by their own hands I.e. kimimaro, Itachi... And yeah Black zetsu was irrelevant and that what should have your alert that why someone like him still in story, why someone who claims to be Madara' will has very different personality, who was the one that Hashirama sense'd in final valley, Why so6p the Saint the creater of Ninshu and preacher of PEACE as said by Jiraiya and others would left stone table which has description of killing, enslavement... Bro we know sage energy works against Juubi jinchuriki as even Gamabunta's attack worked and as now we know Black zetsu was part of Kaguya so ofc he would have sage energy thus... Sorry but what makes you think Madara was ever meant to be Final villain?! Did you forget we got like 50 hints and Great elder sage out right told us Naruto had to fight Sasuke. Sasuke was the final antagonists from the beginning
@@FangLeng-lh4gn Sasuke Is not a villain he is an antihero and a rival Was meant to be the final villain of the story the final antagonist and then the protagonist and his rival would have a duel after Which is narratively different as Sasuke in this hypothetical situation would not be someone who needs to be defeated to save the world No he only develops his I want to be the true Leader of belief village Late into the 11th hour of the story it was never A major part of his character and never even had an impact on the story Think about it how is saske supposed to be the final antagonist if he's incapable of defeating the previous antagonist? Fictional antagonist almost to a fault Are nearly always stronger than what came before and narratively saske fills not the role of an antagonist but as I said that of both a anti hero and that of a rival those characters you mentioned still die in their fight With the heroes because of efforts by the heroes Narrative supporting the heroes effort and linking them to that villains death None of those characters you name have some other side character come in and swoop in stealing the victory Itachi and Kinimaru Run out of energy in their fight and die from a disease due to overstring themselves in a fight so the heroes are still effectively killing them as they pushed those two characters to the brink where they ran out of life Pain and obitu are both first physically defeated then repent and die So they're still defeated by the heroes madera is unique in that he never is Defeated by the heroes And even being that does kill him didn't really beat him in a fight they backstabbed him while he assumed they were on his side I would also add that none of the villains you mentioned would have died when they died if the heroes had done nothing I guess it the bone guy was pretty close to dying I was sickness he might have been able to squeeze maybe a month more of life at Max And Itachi Would have eventually died but it's never made clear how close to Death and For all we know he could have had anywhere from hours to decades more life in him with paying in obito in particular the heroes are directly responsible for their ruining and they would have lived a lot longer if the heroes Had not defeated them As for all the hints about black zetsu All of those are so vague that they don't independently point to Zetsu at all The story had to invent new details To tie those things into him And look at all of those facts without knowing that Zetsu is going to betray And I'm not seeing how they tied to his betrayal And at the end of the day there is just the most important fact that for a character that was as hyped up as Madera and all his great and incredible power he went out in an incredibly lame way without anything satisfying there's just nothing narratively satisfying to it
@@yami122 did you played the game of semantic in entire reply just like you did in 1st para? Yes villain and antagonist are different but they are 2 sides of same coin which is Opposing force to the MC. ?! What in verse time means? Pain destroyed village in just 1 sec, the entirety of fight wasn't even half a day with Naruto. Sorry with these 2 paragraph, I had enough non sense. Peace
@@FangLeng-lh4gn I didn't say villain and antagonist I said anti hero And rival As Sasuke While Madera is a villain or antagonist It's not semantics Rivals and antagonists have very distinct places in a narrative and very distinct and real differences Sasuke Narratively put does not fulfill the role of a villain or antagonist Who cares how long the fight against pain lasted that has nothing to do with anything he's still was defeated by the main hero And dude if you're not going to give respect to those offering a differing opinion or explanation don't comment at all why did you even comment on this video to begin with if you were going to almost immediately get cranky And Rude Before quitting all together Honest piece of advice You gotta learn to actually tolerate differing opinions without throwing your hands up and saying it's all nonsense before storming away in a huff
It can be used well but it always has to follow a very important rule it can't be absolute and it has to take large amounts of energy if a character can regenerate their arm make them exhausted after they do so And the best kind of regeneration tends to be very minor like the ability to merely regrow a limb or a scratch on the cheek full metal alchemist did it actually pretty well where it actually very rarely saves the villains who can regenerate because they're usually in a situation where just because they regrew their head doesn't mean they can stop the next beheading or the next which leads to them growing weaker and weaker and once they need to regenerate they're already pretty much dead
Something they could do is have the villain still experience consequences of what happened earlier in the fight even as they go through different forms, or make the transformation itself come with a drawback that contributes to their downfall.
Yeah that'd be a lot better, instead of fully healing all the previous wounds. That way you can still wear the villains down but keep the transformations.
"Shot through the heart and you're to blame! You give final-forms a bad name."
Could not stop thinking about this when the Madara slide showed up.
This will be stuck in my head as well now!
I don't think it's an issue inherently for the final boss to be getting stronger even if it's unrealistic it just often goes along with other problems. I think the bigger issue and you did present it is that there isn't a goal for other characters to be working towards which makes fights feel hollow and directionless. it could be the side characters need to 'stall for goku' or whatever so long as there's something meaningful and measurable it can be just as satisfying. for it to feel satisfying there just needs to be a goal and arc in the fight. a villain getting worn down is inherently a goal to work towards and does give characters some sense of progress and so it does fix some of the final fight issues but it's not the only way. Freeza is a meme for this trope but his fight is actually done very well even if it's just prophecy fulfilled at the end and goku just wins in the end there's a lot of rising and falling actions and goals for characters in the mean time.
Good insights. Yeah having a clear goal for characters to work towards is a really key part of making a successful fight. I really like your point about it could be something as simple as "stall villain for X amount of time". I see this as what makes a fight interesting is clear goal -> clear actions -> clear outcome/consequences, with the final being the most important. With the stall example, if the characters want to stall a villain, they do this, but then it doesn't amount to anything, that's what makes the fight feel unsatisfying and their actions pointless.
Even if side characters have nothing to do what you said about They're needing to be little goals in the fight is inherently very important too Final villain fights
Look at Ichigo versus aizen where the main protagonist is not working towards anything the villain is not even working towards anything they're just having a brawl A mindless narratively empty brawl
Heck literally all the hero is doing is making the enemy stronger
and minor spoilers I won't say any names but if you've read the manga you'll know what I'm talking about
Near the end of bleach Most of the side characters With the three most popular captains leading Go up against an opponent who has the ability to grow stronger the more damage she takes
And throughout that fake they completely lack a narrative direction and go in the fight they just keep attacking an opponent that grows stronger as they attack so all of the heroes are accomplishing is continuously making him stronger and stronger and stronger
and no matter how many times they make him stronger their answers just to attack again
they never pursue an alternate measure to defeat this boat they never try to do anything like trap him or bind him or seal him away or even just getting him away from the critical battlefield of the final arc
And the fight literally has to end with the author basically just giving up realizing that he has now created an opponent The heroes can never defeat because now he's way too freakishly strong
So the author just kills off that character in some arbitrary unsatisfying way that didn't even involve a single hero and in a way that completely negates the entire purpose of the fight making it so that nothing narratively would have been lost if the fight had never even happened at all
this is a big problem in video games too, phase 2 and 3 of a boss getting progressively harder makes sense from a “this is a video game” perspective but narratively and emotionally are pretty frustrating. by contrast i think zelda botw and totk does it really well as completing the story makes the final boss easier like everyone is working towards a common goal and making meaningful contributions
I really agree with this, I think it's a pervasive problem throughout a lot of popular media. A lot of writers conflate bigger with better and lose sight of what makes a fight compelling. I haven't played legend of zelda since ocarina of time but I'll have to check it out.
Y'know, this is why Sukuna's fight has been working out well despite the stupid "Sukuna Cycle" meme. They're chipping him down like a goddamn Raid Boss battle, down to optimally forcing him to switch forms, negate his second mouth, destroying his arms, negating his reverse curse energy output, debuffing him to hell and back in any way they can to have a chance to win, just recently Yuji leveled up enough to unlock a new talent tree and it's doing his damnest to use the skills against Sukuna.
I completely agree. I actually am a massive fan of the current fight, despite what some fans think. I think JJK in general does fights really well, it reminds me a lot of HxH. I want to make a video on it but I'm waiting until the current fight is completely wrapped up.
I never liked how aizen Is throwing a tantrum during his final fight because there's just no reason for him to be mad at all even though he's being knocked around his attacks and effective he is still at no point in that fight losing the fight because he's immortal And his opponent isn't
So there's just no in universe reason why he should be getting all pouty throwing a tantrum like a little kid because he's guaranteed to win even the hidden trap that ends up sealing him away only works because he threw such a tantrum
So really he should have just remained calm and just shrugged and laughed it off as the hero beats him up
Yeah I didn't really like this either. I guess in the story it's because his ego can't take it but I'm not a fan of the FGT at all it felt like a cheap and convenient way to take out Aizen.
6/10 video. Get batter audio equipment and try writing a more thorough script so there arent so many awkward pauses. Maybe get a channel mascot so you're recognizable. Ask an artist to better render it for you. But I can see where you were going and it's not bad
Thanks a lot man I really appreciate the feedback. I have 1 more video already coming but I definitely want to improve and I'll take your comments to heart. Agree my mic and editing isn't the best but I'll try and improve them as I get more comfortable making videos. Also yeah not having a script was a mistake I thought I could speak without one but I realised after this video that it's really needed... Hopefully my 3rd video will flow a bit better but I'm going to always write a script from now on.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt ill look forward to it
8/10 comment, insightful, clear, and helpful review. Could do better with the spelling though.
@@fangwu7576 fair enough xD
@@Mixinnitup why does he need a mascot?? This is such a copy paste formular that I kinda get annoyed seeing everywhere. Not every video channel need one. May be channels for funny stuff and young audience need one, but certainly this kind of content doesn't need a stupid mascot. A better edditing would be ideal, but it also increase cost and effort, but I guess he is gonna improve over time.
Wow after doing the math I concluded that bleach has 24 consecutive fights nonstop no time to breathe no development of story Almost all of it in the same location
Definitely a common problem with shonen anime - the huge emphasis on fights over storytelling.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt And I definitely feel like bleach was one of the worst with it As I can't think of any other anime that I've watched where that many fights happen in a row with nothing in between
take yu yu hakusho Which would have Four to 6 fights in a row And then take a break do some story give everyone a breather before the next set of four to six fights
dragon Ball Z usually get fairly good about spacing out its fights although the anime admittedly due to needing a bunch of failure to avoid catching up with the source material would stretch out fights far longer than they were originally intended to be with the fight against Frieza being legendarily long with four transformations and then his final form having three separate percentages he uses
his fight ends up being so long that a literal season of the show that you buy at a store is just his fight there's literally a namic saga season and then the frieza fight season
naruto used to be really good with spacing out its fights right up until the war ark at the end of the second show where the warrant just devolved into non-stop fight after fight after fight against opponents that the main cast already killed
I feel like Bleach is the biggest culprit here, I mean how many fights in bleach are actually really doing something for the plot, for character development. A huge part of Bleach fights are like this:
A: My swords ability makes you blablabla, now you're done for
B: Oh yeah? Maybe I should tell you MY swords ability! It's blablabla, so it has no affect on me, now YOU'RE done for!
repeat 100 times until someone "dies" but acually doesn't and comes back later.
You said it perfectly lol. In the early seasons I preferred Bleach, but yeah later on it's just madness. Hacks abilities trumping hacks abilities, zero consistency to the power scaling, and endless deus ex machinas.
A big frustration to me is that shonen anime always put good fights before good writing. As such, the "various forms" trope is more about spectacle than substance.
Yeah, it starts to feel very repetitive after a while. It makes me appreciate a series like Full Metal Alchemist or Hunter x Hunter so much more.
Lore of The Villain Final Form Problem momentum 100
I love the video
Thank you much appreciated! Let me know if you want to see anything else I'd love to do more.
I very much disagree with the bleach one you say that the side characters had no affect on him and for the most part that’s true but aizen would’ve won that fight but it’s actually kisuke who dealt the final blow by using the kido in his fight w isshin and yoruichi and it’s likely they were in on the plan and just trying to help kisuke put the kido into aizens body ichigo was literally just there to severely weaken aizen until the kido took effect so yeah idk bout that one
Hey you're right that Aizen was actually beaten by the kido, but I see this as a technicality because Kubo didn't want to straight up kill Aizen so he had to seal him away. But narratively it doesn't really change anything about the broader roles of the characters.
Where does the final image come from? Is it an anime or a game?
It's been a while but I think it's actually AI art. I used it in some of my earlier videos, but some viewers weren't fans of it so I've stopped using AI images now.
It has always frustrated me how anime continues to make the same major mistake over and over by allowing their villains to be so overpowered that none in the main cast can compete with them which is fine on its own because the heroes can grow and match that power
but then the author decides to make the villain even stronger and then even stronger and then even stronger and critically this growth by the villain is done too quickly giving the heroes no chance to catch up until finally when it comes time for the villain to be defeated the author has nothing set up for it no epic bottle because the heroes can't compete so he has to do Deus ex Machina To give the main character suddenly some completely unearned power boost that somehow makes the main bill in weak in comparison
Which leads into another problem I have with many anime is that too many fights become one sided it's not all that interesting watching someone be unable to even affect their opponent because their opponent has some hacks ability
anime As a style is inherently a really good way to do great back and forth battles real fights were the two sides have to compete and deploy their arsenal of skills to try to get a leg up on one another
but so few authors are willing to actually do that they have the villain dominate effortlessly than an unearned power up what's the hero dominate effortlessly and frankly I find that incredibly boring especially since the dominating side then just toys with their opponent and ultimately we never actually get a battle
I also deeply despise hacks abilities that completely negate opponents tool set The final villain of bleach and his almighty It's a strong ability but it's an ability that makes any fight it's involved in it A snore fest because the opponent can't do anything any move they make just gets completely negated
it would be like watching a boxing match but only one of the two boxers is allowed to throw punches it's not that fun where's the competition hacks abilities ruin competition and they ruin fights a power should never negate other powers and every power should have an inherent weakness
You hit the nail on the head 100% perfectly. I still love anime but my interest has definitely waned in recent years due to a lot of these frustrations, the recent isekai trend has made things even worse just in the opposite direction. I wish there were more action anime like Hunter x Hunter.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I definitely agree isekai Has basically ruined anime for me I haven't watched a new one in years specifically due to it
an overpowered villain that needs a Deus ex Machina To defeat is boring But an overpowered hero who never needs to put in even a modicum of effort is so much worse
I definitely feel it is aimed at a much younger audience than anime of the past used to be And I hate to say it but I feel like it's aimed at specifically losers the way it portrays the protagonist is just being an incredibly awesome guy who doesn't need to to put in any effort to beat the bad guy or win the girls
I feel like something for those people who aren't doing very well in life to project themselves into and fantasize about them basically being perfect without actually having to put in the work with being perfect
and not going to lie it kind of pisses me off because I feel like it's sending such a horrible message to these unpopular individuals whereas old anime at least showed that if you want to be the best you have to train you have to work at it
now isekai almost seems to say hard work is a bad thing as the Uber Chad protagonist who never needs to put in anything but the Smallest of efforts is actively crushing individuals who do work their asses off
@@yami122 I really don't understand the appeal of isekai - it feels so boring and bland to me. How can there be an interesting story when the characters are so ridiculously overpowered? I read the mushoku tensei light novel because the main character in that is at least fairly balanced and I mainly just wanted to try a light novel. And I'm watching Solo Leveling purely for the dark souls aesthetic.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt From a narrative standpoint isekai The brake Merely if not every important rule to effective storytelling
the main character is too important to the world and overpowered But without a reason to their importance Or a reason to their power
in fact the main characters are always Undeserving of their power Almost all of them were inherently lazy And were for no reason handed their power on a silver platter that no one else in history has ever had
they break the rules of their own stories Wielding powers and abilities that are usually impossible or inaccessible to anyone else
they completely lack a hero's journey Or any meaningful story being told at all Nothing of importance happens from first to last chapter or episode except maybe a few more girls will Cling to them
And that's another issue with that style is it so often combines the harem genre into it and extremely poorly
those that do have unappealing incredibly shallow and incredibly cliche women that possess only one defining personality trait
and yet they all obsess over a boy who's honestly not very interesting of a person with the only thing about the main character that might attract someone's attention being there overpoweredness
but that's usually not why the girl is into them it's some poorly defined they just Are because it's the main character with an extremely shallow reason that just doesn't justify a little harem would form around one of that world's most boring and unambitious people
And the story is also weirdly seemed to discourage hard work As those who work hard are constantly humiliated by the hero who hasn't worked a day in their life but just has some power
whether an author intends to or not every piece of fiction is saying something it has some message
and the message of that style of anime is clearly don't work hard to succeed god will intervene and make you a success no matter how little effort you put Into your life
with the style being so popular With Japanese children makes me wonder if the next Generation of Japanese is gonna grow up to be incredibly lazy and incredibly bitter because no God did not intervene and give them magical success and a harem of women obsessed over them despite them being very unattractive men
Good point about Thanos (Thanos was right btw). What do you think about how they do boss fights in One Piece with the whole crew getting match ups
I previously enjoyed the One Piece match ups with the crew each fighting different people, but I think there's a couple of key problems I've noticed recently:
1. It's becoming too formulaic now, and there's a real lack of suspense in some of the recent fights where they've become too predictable.
2. The crew dynamic has suffered as Luffy has become more prominent, to the point where a chunk of the crew are becoming increasingly sidelined as the gap between them and Luffy grows.
3. The haki system was a great idea initially, but I think Oda has gone down the wrong route with it as he's developed it further, especially advanced conquerors haki.
to add to your point about the bleach characters being so worthless
Not only were they worthless and contributed nothing to the battle but they took two years of being worthless a full year was wasted on the low tier fighters fighting over four pillars that made reading the material week to week agonizingly boring watching fight after fight after fight of nobody's
and then after the nobody's were all swept aside the top 4 took nearly another year about six months only for the top three spite to be Utterly pointless when the main villain just One shots everybody completely negating their victories and making it as if the top three might as well not even have existed
Then another several months of the main Antagonist towing with some Fights that he barely puts effort into And that only ever served to make him stronger
And then another month or two of the main villain just walking around chasing some school children
only for the main hero to roll in and then curb stomp his opponent in a few chapters no epic fight just occurred stomp a boring curb stomp whereas you stated the main villain didn't even have the ability to fight back
so two years of hype for the final battle just for it to be a boring curb Stomp
Also of note is that it was two years of nothing but fight No time in between the fights no real story development no world building no new locations no time to build tension
It is a common rule in any form of storytelling that high peaks of excitement must be met with low valleys of calm there needs to be time in between the hype In order for hype and anticipation to build if you try to have hype nonstop just one fight after another it stops being hyper it just becomes repetitive and people get burnt out at that peak
And when you really think about it that two years for us was probably like two hours in Bleach's universe's time since it shows over a dozen fights one after another each taking several weeks Which leads to months of our time only progressing the story's time probably about half an hour since most of these fights are going to be happening at the same time there's only five sets of fights
first there's 10 fights with the Nobodies then 4 fights involving the top four Then a point where the fight is the top four ends and then another round with the same top four occurs we're all four fights involved the opponent who was believed to be defeated but they come back after that there's the main antagonist versus almost everybody Then the head captain has a skirmish Followed by a 3 on 1 fight against the main antagonist while the main protagonist fights a separate opponent at the same time then finally the main hero has his final fight
I counted 23 fights nonstop And that's just if you consider the battle starting in the fake town But it's even worse if you include the main antagonist base as most of the 10 espada have fights back to back with no real rest though at least the first six have some room to breathe in between fights no not much oh and I forgot about the unfinished fight against number zero so I guess it's 24
so after defeating the top 6 with only short moments to breathe story wise then immediately leaping into 24 consecutive non-stop fights
I don’t think Aizen has a final form🤔
He does evolve through different forms via the hogyoku though.
It's not a problem. Especially with the Aizen fight. Narratively, Aizen is supposed to evolve into a greater being. That was his goal in the first place, and that's what the hogyoku does, it makes him evolve. Gin's sacrifice wasn't for nothing. Gin gave Ichigo the opportunity to go and learn the final getugatensho.
The reason Aizen evolves is precisely because his life is in danger. That proves that the side characters were actually pushing Aizen to his limits. Each time he's pushed to his limit, he evolves because the hogyoku is compelled to protect his master through it's master's wishes.
The final getugatensho wasn't what defeated Aizen. After getting hit with it, he clearly heals and begins to evolve. He lost because he deep down wanted to be like everyone else. That's why the hogyoku made him lose.
All the actions of the side characters in that fight were important to the narrative.
The final getugatensho itself is one that people have issue with and I have an issue with it as well due to it not being properly foreshadowed, however, the way characters get stronger in bleach is not the same as typical stories. Characters become stronger by understanding themselves and training in their mental/spiritual space which Ichigo did for three months. Prior to getting that power. The Dangai is already established since the beginning of the show to exist outside the regular flow of space and time having it's own different flow of time.
It's how it works in bleach.
The Madara one is more accurate to the topic because of obvious reasons. An extremely weak Character defeated the godlike Madara out of nowhere and it served a terrible narrative purpose. If it serves a the narrative in a good way, it's absolutely not a problem.
You can't tell people how to write their stories and you also can't tell people what sort of writing to enjoy. If a writer wants his villain to have several final forms then that's what they should do and if his audience loves it, then they love it.
Hey man. Appreciate the thought out response. Definitely don't want to come across as though a story can only be written in one way because of course we want a lot of different stories and characters.
I see where you're coming from with Aizen, but I still find the narrative around his evolution disappointing. Let me list out a few reasons:
1. Aizen in his base form is already broken in comparison to the rest of the cast. His zanpakto ability is so absurdly powerful that even setting aside his stats, he can flawlessly handle everyone and even manipulate them to fight each other.
2. Because he's so absurdly powerful, it's a problem when he starts evolving into "transcendent" levels, which ruins the power scale in Bleach in my opinion. It's a typical shonen DBZ-esque power system, without a sense of scale or proportion.
3. Completely agree with the FGT not being foreshadowed, and it speaks to that point I was making that when you introduce characters with such godlike abilities, it requires a deus ex machina to deafeat them, which is unsatisfying. Instead of overpowering an already overpowered character, it would have been better to take the whittling down approach. Or have the characters come up with creative ways to deal with the antagonist.
4. Conceptually I agree with what you said about how characters in Bleach get stronger, but Bleach in general has very poor power scaling, especially characters relative to each other.
5. Aizen being lonely and secretly wanting to lose is a bit of a plot hole for me. It's never hinted at before and is never featured again after. It's just a throwaway comment from Ichigo.
Madara's conclusion is the Best character conclusion for him.
He was a human who to be a God, viewed himself as Messiah, The saviour of Shinobi World,
but a human playing God, got killed with the Hands of "GOD" (BZ is weak by the way, he is literally the part of Kaguya. The strongest character at that time)
It's many time shown how Madara is insecure of his back(also symbolises him trying to do everything rather than leaving it to next Gen/passing The Torch) by Him not able to pee when someone is behind him to His susanoo have no backs but rather 2 faces.
Madara isn't someone to get Talk no Jutsu'd and just defeating the enemy isn't a conclusion specially in Naruto where enemies have their strong and seemingly good Ideology.
Madara realizing his mistakes when BZ reveal the truth and him finally accepting that he should have "Pass the Torch" like Hashirama is Fitting and Great conclusion.
the problem that the final dangai just comes out of nowhere never gets explored again And provides a power boost that's too ridiculously powerful
And it raises quite a few block holes That Y is the main character the only one who can do it Then more importantly why doesn't he just do it again in the final arc
That's another thing in the final arc we discover that the main protagonist has been using a fake power all along
There's just no way around it is a Deus ex Machina And severely hurts the lore of the story Due to its unexplained details and its lack of exploration and explanation
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Another two problems with Aizen Is that in order to be defeated the author has to completely change his personality
He is a schemer and an incredibly intelligent person Being either the first or the second most intelligent person
but for basically no reason at all he decides to stop being intelligent He openly admits to it that he's not even going to try to think
And that just goes completely against the character's whole personality and point While also making him completely dumb by removing the one thing that made him so interesting to the audience
And I'm sorry but intelligence is not something you just Decide not to use I can't all of a sudden be less intelligent than I am I guess I could decide to start making bad decisions but I'm still going to be intelligent enough to be knowing my decisions are bad And why am I doing them
And he clearly so greatly enjoys lording his intelligence over others he constantly goes on evil monologs about how he's played people so why would he stop He doesn't gain anything from stopping In fact he's going to enjoy his victory less
And he also for no reason at all abandoned his ability to create illusions and becomes a purely brute force fighter
which again goes against his whole character his personality and very being his sword creates illusions because he is so inherently deceptive and manipulative that his sword reflected that
but he just decides to stop trying with any of it even when he's getting enraged that he's getting punched in the face he never decides to quickly activate his sword well the main heroes looking at him then illusion stabbing him in the back
And it was a huge mistake by the author because it made the main billing uninteresting to the point where by the time he loses I didn't even care about the character anymore he was just a dumb angry brute barely different than espada 0 in terms of personality and fighting style
and like you said he was already so overpowered that his transformations broke the power scaling of the series even later on in the stories in the Arctic's after this his powers never surpassed except perhaps by the almighty
And even then the final biller never hits a point where his energy Can't be sensed and it's a level of power that Is never addressed again characters return to being more or less equal to captains even the characters that are stronger than captains are still in that lead their energies can still be sensed by your average captain
and also the day of sex that allowed the main hero to win is just never addressed again it's not going to get used in the final art sorry if that's a spoiler but don't expect to see that again
in fact a flashback is going to make it even more confusing because it was always assumed that his dad lost his own power due to using that final form that drains your power but no in the final mark we found out the main heroes dad lost his power over something completely different
@@yami122 All spot on - it's the classic problem of writing a seriously overpowered villain and realising there's no real way of beating them so you have to invent something random to do it. Exactly as you said, it doesn't make sense why Aizen would stop using his illusions when it's his most broken ability. It doesn't make sense why he would never use his bankai, which he definitely would have. And the whole transcendent being thing put the nail in the coffin of the power scaling.
Nah, Madara's conclusion is fitting for him(I ain't going over it how as this video isn't about that) but It's stupid argument that Madara was strong that's he got plot...
why would author kill a strong enemy to revive a stronger enemy if they were struggling to kill the 1st one, It's very stupid argument
many ppl agreeing doesn't make stuff inheriently RIGHT or WRONG
as per Final villain, it was Sasuke and as you said ppl get fatigued and tierd as fight goes on and that's literally what happened.
one of the biggest problems with madaras conclusion Is that the heroes had no part in it they had no agency in his defeat This Villain who was hyped up during the entire war and who This story has been leading to gets offed by someone completely different and not just someone who's different A character who has himself had very little to do with the storyline and has been very irrelevant and has by all evidence appeared to be only a good spy and a very weak character
And what's worse is this ending to the fight would have happened even if the heroes had offered no resistance to him so the entire war arc became instantly pointless
every hero could have simply decided not to challenge the main villains and the exact same result would have occurred he would have gotten the godly powers and then stabbed in the back
@@yami122 What exactly made you think that Madara is going to be dealt by heros IN NARUTO were majority of time characters get defeated by their hypocrisy I.e. Pain, Obito some by their own hands I.e. kimimaro, Itachi...
And yeah Black zetsu was irrelevant and that what should have your alert that why someone like him still in story, why someone who claims to be Madara' will has very different personality, who was the one that Hashirama sense'd in final valley, Why so6p the Saint the creater of Ninshu and preacher of PEACE as said by Jiraiya and others would left stone table which has description of killing, enslavement...
Bro we know sage energy works against Juubi jinchuriki as even Gamabunta's attack worked and as now we know Black zetsu was part of Kaguya so ofc he would have sage energy thus...
Sorry but what makes you think Madara was ever meant to be Final villain?! Did you forget we got like 50 hints and Great elder sage out right told us Naruto had to fight Sasuke. Sasuke was the final antagonists from the beginning
@@FangLeng-lh4gn Sasuke Is not a villain he is an antihero and a rival Was meant to be the final villain of the story the final antagonist and then the protagonist and his rival would have a duel after Which is narratively different as Sasuke in this hypothetical situation would not be someone who needs to be defeated to save the world
No he only develops his I want to be the true Leader of belief village Late into the 11th hour of the story it was never A major part of his character and never even had an impact on the story
Think about it how is saske supposed to be the final antagonist if he's incapable of defeating the previous antagonist?
Fictional antagonist almost to a fault Are nearly always stronger than what came before and narratively saske fills not the role of an antagonist but as I said that of both a anti hero and that of a rival
those characters you mentioned still die in their fight With the heroes because of efforts by the heroes Narrative supporting the heroes effort and linking them to that villains death
None of those characters you name have some other side character come in and swoop in stealing the victory
Itachi and Kinimaru Run out of energy in their fight and die from a disease due to overstring themselves in a fight so the heroes are still effectively killing them as they pushed those two characters to the brink where they ran out of life
Pain and obitu are both first physically defeated then repent and die So they're still defeated by the heroes
madera is unique in that he never is Defeated by the heroes And even being that does kill him didn't really beat him in a fight they backstabbed him while he assumed they were on his side
I would also add that none of the villains you mentioned would have died when they died if the heroes had done nothing I guess it the bone guy was pretty close to dying I was sickness he might have been able to squeeze maybe a month more of life at Max
And Itachi Would have eventually died but it's never made clear how close to Death and For all we know he could have had anywhere from hours to decades more life in him
with paying in obito in particular the heroes are directly responsible for their ruining and they would have lived a lot longer if the heroes Had not defeated them
As for all the hints about black zetsu All of those are so vague that they don't independently point to Zetsu at all The story had to invent new details To tie those things into him And look at all of those facts without knowing that Zetsu is going to betray And I'm not seeing how they tied to his betrayal
And at the end of the day there is just the most important fact that for a character that was as hyped up as Madera and all his great and incredible power he went out in an incredibly lame way without anything satisfying
there's just nothing narratively satisfying to it
@@yami122 did you played the game of semantic in entire reply just like you did in 1st para?
Yes villain and antagonist are different but they are 2 sides of same coin which is Opposing force to the MC.
?! What in verse time means? Pain destroyed village in just 1 sec, the entirety of fight wasn't even half a day with Naruto.
Sorry with these 2 paragraph, I had enough non sense. Peace
@@FangLeng-lh4gn I didn't say villain and antagonist
I said anti hero And rival As Sasuke While Madera is a villain or antagonist
It's not semantics Rivals and antagonists have very distinct places in a narrative and very distinct and real differences
Sasuke Narratively put does not fulfill the role of a villain or antagonist
Who cares how long the fight against pain lasted that has nothing to do with anything
he's still was defeated by the main hero
And dude if you're not going to give respect to those offering a differing opinion or explanation don't comment at all
why did you even comment on this video to begin with if you were going to almost immediately get cranky And Rude Before quitting all together
Honest piece of advice You gotta learn to actually tolerate differing opinions without throwing your hands up and saying it's all nonsense before storming away in a huff
I personally consider regenerative powers one of the seven deadly sins of anime writing.
9 times out of 10 it leads to boring, repetitive fights.
It can be used well but it always has to follow a very important rule it can't be absolute and it has to take large amounts of energy if a character can regenerate their arm make them exhausted after they do so
And the best kind of regeneration tends to be very minor like the ability to merely regrow a limb or a scratch on the cheek
full metal alchemist did it actually pretty well where it actually very rarely saves the villains who can regenerate because they're usually in a situation where just because they regrew their head doesn't mean they can stop the next beheading or the next which leads to them growing weaker and weaker and once they need to regenerate they're already pretty much dead
Speaking of seven deadly sins... Seven Deadly Sins, am I right?