Why I Don't Like Comic Books (DC & Marvel)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 3 дек 2024
- I think that mainstream comics, namely DC and Marvel, have some serious issues when it comes to their storytelling and how their characters and universes are handled. Sharing my thoughts on what I think these problems are, and how they could be addressed.
Like the video or want to support the channel? Why not buy me a coffee?
buymeacoffee.c...
Same reason I can not want sitcoms anymore. Any character growth they learn gets erased. Honestly I do wonder if floating timeline means that the characters live in purgatory, sentenced to repeat and forget for all of eternity.
And don't forget it's not the characters fault that any permanent change can't happen in the stories that they are in it's mainly the writers refusal to make any satisfying conclusions to those stories it's like the characters have no control of their own destiny anymore because they're always bound to the fate of the writers because what your character is says a lot about the writers and you can't really hate Spider-Man Batman or any other superhero or villain for this they are just bound to the tethers of the writers themselves because if I were the one running those stories then I would have make sure that there will be a real satisfying ending to it and then when your villain or hero dies you can always pass down the legacy to the next generation anyway so instead of hating the comic it will be obvious if you just hate the writer instead because why do you blame a comic book character for not having any permanent change when the writers are the blame at least that's what I personally think
I cannot watch sitcoms at all I really dislike them. The closest I got was the Office, which is my one exception (not sure if it counts as a sitcom).
@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt as a fan of the office, I can say modern family, curb, IASIP, and community are also pretty great if not outright better than the office.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt pretty sure the office is a mockumentary and the office is a really bad representation of them
@@Mal-go5dl Out of those the only one I've seen a bit of is Modern Family, but I wasn't a huge fan from the clips I saw.
My problem with comic books is that they have to continuously escalate the stakes.
The Flash went from running at the speed of sound to running fast enough to negate the concept of time.
The threats went from 'destruction of the city' to 'the destruction of the infinite universes and /or reality itself'.
I wish they'd keep it simple and just explore interesting concepts each week instead of the ever increasing complexity that ends up crushing them.
On a side note, if you lived in a world in which superheroes existed, only a mad person would commit a crime, or white collar crime would skyrocket
I absolutely agree with you. Annoyingly I thought the same just after I finished recording this video, otherwise I would have included it in this. But yeah the power creep is a very real problem.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt 'power creep'! that's a good name for it.
So true hell, it's make new creators worried about power scaling
I agree. Though that is also a problem with like 80% of Shonen manga.
This is kind of the reason I have with jean grey and also why I hate the concept of omega level mutant .
Every time jean grey gets a phoenix power up they force all the other characters to suddenly become double omega power level .
I would rather have a hero universe where the powers were low and people struggled
This is why I prefer the animated adaptations. The DCAU, Avengers EMH, and the X-Men cartoons ended their stories, and created a complete canon.
The animated cartoons are great. I heard the new x men one on Disney is really good too.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt
It is. It just has a breakneck pace and as a continuation of the 90's series it has some continuity errors that contradict the original.
also Arkham knight
Only problem is they rarely follow the storylines of the books and tone down the source material
@@Bolbi145did you even watch Earth's mightiest heroes? Clearly not.
While I prefer manga, I also read comics from time to time. The secret to enjoying comics is by treating them differently from manga. Don't try to read all the comics of a superhero. Just look up what are the most popular stories with that character and read them like self contained stories. It's similar to watching superhero movies, they are usually based on the best stories of the character
I've mostly done this to be honest, just cherry picked a few stories for characters I like. But it's a shame I can't engage with the wider narrative of what's going on since it seems to be a mess.
I usually like to read a run by a single writer of a character and see it as an isolated story. For example, I love the Jim starlin comics with thanos, I've read other authors writing good thanos stories, but normally I separate them from my "headcanon"
I like to buy single issues with cool art and then read the stories online
I just treated all of the superhero stories I read as if they were ALL multiverse stories anyway, because that's how I approach fiction in general. I've been doing that since I was a kid. Anytime I ran into a storyline that didn't match up with canon in another story about that character, I just said to myself, "oh, it's a different universe", and just kept it moving. None of that bothered me.
I also didn't choose books based on what was the most popular stories. As a writer and artist myself, I'd just follow the writers and artists I liked the most.
The reason comic book fans have to compartmentalize stories is because there's too much greed in these comic book studios. They won't let characters die, they won't let a story to end and they won't let characters grow. It's a dumb way to consume entertainment because at the end of the day people just want good stories and all good stories end
From that I understand about American comic books, its current status was shaped by Congressional hearings in the 1950s that were spurred by the book Seduction of the Innocent by Fredric Wertham. Before the hearings, American comic books covered a much wider variety of genres, including horror, romance and science fiction; after the hearings, the superhero genre was the only one left standing. Other genres have started to come back in recent decades, but DC and Marvel still have an outsized influence in American comic books as the result of the hearings and their impact on the comic book industry.
Very interesting thanks for sharing this. Who'd have thought a decision from that long ago would shape the whole modern industry!
I concur, up to 1950 ish, the comics landscape was more diverse and not truly targeted at kids. The censorship of the 50s and 60s (boosted by the McCarthy doctrine) destroyed much of the industry. which also coincide with the rise of Disney. (Coincidence?). What no one talk about is the fact that censorship went international. In Europe, la Bande-Dessinées Franco-Belge had no problème making stories aimed at the adult market until the same decades when censorship force many publisher to remove or change their portefolio. One example is Buck Danny, a young engineer, whose first story was about his participation to WWII as a US Navy pilot. The serie had a dozen albums covering the WWII era, the demobilisation, the advent of the jet engines and the Korean war when censorship struck and ruled that Buck Danny could no longer talk about war because the medium was aimed at kids. This had for result to force its creator to skip every wars the US was involved in; which is ironic for a serie whose stories are about a US Navy pilot.
I'm summarizing the whole things but let's say that because of this, those particular albums were "unavailable" for almost 30 years, only to be re-introduce in the 80s. Currently, a new serie called "Buck Danny "Classic" is revisiting those conflict so that we could finally have those stories free of the censorship of the time.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt ekhm, Dell Comisc?
Several of my favorite recent books are independently published Sci-fi, horror, etc. I can’t watch TV or read books that keep characters running to the point that they are fighting God and Cosmic beings…it’s just unrelatable.
Based CCA denouncer, both DC and Marvel fully supported this proto ESG/DEI/SJW take over of their industry because it destroyed their competition and cemented their monopoly. Superman should have remained dead, but he didn't, now he's an arch lych just like every other western character inspired by him
Dude, I absolutely cannot blame you for feeling the way you feel. I genuinely cannot stand anymore how character growth either gets erased, halted or outright retconned due to “story.” That’s why I love Invincible so much, his character got development, his story has ended, and his existence as a fictional being has been fulfilled. I’m convinced you can continue, start and end other stories for characters if it benefits your narrative, Marvel & DC don’t do that and I’m still shocked to this day.
Thanks we're definitely on the same page here! I agree with 100% of what you said.
Could be their way of keeping business booming.
@@Gem-xc6rvit's a lack of creativity, especially on DC's part. They just keep pushing the same stories about the same characters over and over again. If they lost the right to use Batman tomorrow, DC would go out of business in a week. They don't bring anything new, they just keep focusing on certain characters even at the expense of anything else.
@@fandomking8939 Yep... Characters like say, Black Adam? Or Green Arrow? Or better yet, Booster Gold? Would make for a good change honestly... the classics had their time in the spotlight, they will always be remembered. It's also time they give their attention and effort for the other lesser known characters in the extensive mythos of DC or Marvel... Static Shock maybe? Or better yet, The Question.
@Gem-xc6rv the sad part is, at this point, after creating the umpteenth villain for the batman or superman, after writing the umpteenth mystery for batman to solve, and the millionth moral dilemma for superman, anything they write for these diverse characters can and will be compared to older versions. While I don't particularly care, it effects public opinion, which effects sales, which effects whether or not they continue to write the story.
I’m a massive X-Men fan and one of my personal hobbies is trying to brainstorm my very own X-Men adaptation (preferably an animated universe like the DCAU) were I do away with the issues you mention here.
Characters dies and stays dead, characters loses their powers and actually loses them or regains them at a very high cost.
Also the world would change over time. The X-Men starts as outcasts but as more supernatural things becomes known to the public like demons and aliens etc they starts to become a more traditional superhero team. And the X-Mansion would constantly expand and change and take in more mutants who weren’t necessarily X-Men etc.
This honestly sounds awesome. I'd love to read a story like this! I really feel like we're missing out on something truly great by not allowing the story to progress meaningfully.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptOne issue that I really would have liked to have seen in the comics that sadly isn’t possible due to the whole status quo reset you mentioned is to have Wolverine actually fully adopt X23 and be a genuine father figure. But that sadly isn’t possible because Wolverine must remain the “edgy” superhero so have him fully commit to being a father wouldn’t work.
The X-Men central story was just a cold war story but the mutant story was only really professor X and the teams excuse to team up.
Each team member had their own story arc....
Then the 90s and 2000 happened.
The stories became soo obsessed with events characters started just standing around with nothing to do
I do the same thing for Batman.
That's basically why the movie Logan worked : it's the end of the X-Men as we knew them on screen but we also see the birth of a new generation of Mutants who saw them as Legends through (ironically) comic-books....
This is why I think that Hellboy is the best comic book ever, probably.
Nothing is retconned, every character is important, and it actually has an ending that ties it all together in a neat little bow. Hellboy got me through covid so I might be a little biased but it, along with its sister series, provides everything mainstream comics refuse to give.
That's great, I really hope indie and alternative publishers grow to the point they can challenge Marvel and DC for the mainstream comic reading audience.
Also to mension about manga, is the format itself. While regular western comics are random in their binding size, anount and quality. Manga books keep having a same-ish size and formating. which makes them easier to store.
Another thing is paper quality and colors. A simple thing like having colors in your comic requires you to have more quality paper to allow color print, which costs more money to print - therefore, smaller/less popular comic series are forced to cut down on page number. On the other hand, manga can be printed on glorified toilet paper, since it is mosty in just black and white, thus lovering the overall cost, allowing artists more leeway for their storytelling.
This basically means, that the scene, which european/american comic artist is required to fit on one page, manga artist can stretch over 3-4 pages.
(to state again, this mostly hurts european, or indie comic books, marvel can afford it, but they have other problems. If someone knows more about this process, i´ll be welcome to learn more)
This is very interesting and something I haven't seen anyone else talk about! Thanks for sharing.
The fuck you mean glorified toilet paper, nitwit
That is actually an awesome take that I've never thought of. It also adds a complex dilemma, though. How do you create a fix for the situation? Do comics go to black and white? I'd hate that. A real contention I have with manga in general is that they are often colourless, even though they are vibrant. The fact that comics add color could be a great selling point, if they were willing to spend as much time on their story as their budget.
So great that more people are saying this, indie comics have been grabbing my attention more than Marvel and DC because the character development and lack of conclusions just aren't there in the big 2
People who hate comics and pretend superhero comics are the only ones are no different to people who hate video games and pretend shooter games are the only ones.
I really hope indie comics or other publishers grow big enough to seriously challenge Marvel and DC. I think the industry needs a real shake up.
@@petermj1098 Hopefully in the next few years or decades that the Superhero genre is already dead and more other genres like horror or sci-fi thrive
@@petermj1098Just sad that people only think of comics as just one genre (cape comics) and not the vast amount of others
@@petermj1098 what is this weird strawman?
Comic fans say they want change as they're tired of seeing the same thing, but as soon as there's change, they RIOT. Demanding things to go back before any arc is concluded
I mean there’s change, then there’s complete bastardization.
Because the change is inherently lame. Characters don't die because their story is over. They die to sell books and because its the current thing. There is no plan, the change exists because other writers did everything else.
@@DeBean970 death also means northing in anime
@@DeBean970characters dont die in comics characters dont die in anime either
@@yarc9exept for villains
That's why i just collect certain runs. Each author normally has a beginning, middle, and end. So i just stick with them
That's a good way to do it, although you probably still don't get a proper "ending" for a character.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt You're hung up on them ending. You don't have to read these looking for an ending. You can read certain graphic novels/trade paperbacks as individual adventures. Superman: Brainiac? It's a Superman adventure. The Punisher: Welcome Back, Frank. A Punisher quest to eliminate his enemy. I'm reading Kraven's Last Hunt for the story being told, not to see Kraven the Hunter or Spider-Man to end (won't spoil it despite the comic being nearly 4 decades long).
@@Batman88878 This
I think this is why Comics like The Watchmen are interesting; It actually ends.
Could you imagine if Harry Potter went with the same writing style as comic?
Instead of 7 books being released a little over a year between one another one book as been released every year since 1997.
And even though the books doesn’t necessarily cover a whole year each like the books actually did Harry shows no signs of aging despite having celebrated Christmas at Hogwarts over 8 times until like the ninth book that suggest he’s turned into a 13 year old.
And instead of building up to one final confrontation with Voldemort he just shows up occasionally with schemes that ranges from taking over the world to robbing the Gringotts Bank.
And Harry Potter and the marauders has many encounters with Death Eaters as well as other magic villains yet despite them using lethal spells the only character on Harry’s side to ever die is Sirius.
Lol yeah when you contrast it with a book then the flaws in the stories are even more exposed.
You’ve just described Pokemon anime.
Decades of stories across multiple series. And Ash Ketchum was always 10 years old and could never accomplish his dream.
It was only waaay later when perhaps the profits started to decline that Ash was finally allowed to end his journey and the series ended.
You obviously don’t read comics because comparing it to Harry Potter is so silly. They are completely different mediums with different end goals. Not everything has to fit neatly into the categories you’ve created in your head. They’re both stories but it’s a completely different kind of story telling. Comics are way closer to serials.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I compare it to the simpsons every story is stand alone but there is a canon that matters when it suits the stand alone story.
So The Books of Magic? It has an ending.
For me, it's read whatever you want. Just have fun with it. My best advice is to follow your favorite writer rather than favorite character.
That's completely fair advice!
I've never read manga, only comics, but this video really makes me want to read a manga!!
I definitely recommend trying some, there are tons of options.
Or better yet just make your own comic book as long as you don't get copyrighted then I would rather hear these stories from you then from whatever big corporation brings out
@@JustinJulian-00 I always thought if I could draw I would love to create a comic style story.
Read Chainsaw Man. Perfectly represents the kind of storytelling that can takes advantage of the medium
Chainsaw man is good but I wouldn't recommend it as your first maybe like your third. I'd recommend however, Sakamoto Days (Manga, a retired assassin trying to live the family life gets pulled back into the game) , Player Manhwa (Dude reads a comic says he would do better than the main character against the comics strongest character so God decides to put him into said world and blesses him with his sword, however dude is just a guy with no friends and gets bullied), Blame (manga, it's an unpolished masterpiece imo with little dialogue mostly scenery, The world has transformed into one gigantic City That's slowly getting bigger. Robots are hunting the last remaining human's. The main character is a genetically altered human looking for a human with a specific gene capable of turning off the robots), Jujutsu Kaisen (sorcerers fighting demonic curses born from human malice and suffering), One Punch Man (A superhero so powerful he's bored with life because nothing grants him a challenge, focus is actually on other characters getting stronger and trying to reach his level) , Song Of The Night Walkers( psychological romance about a boy falling in love with a vampire with some action, buts not the main theme).
This is why I prefer reading "elseworlds" one-off stories, which aren't tied to the history and continuity of mainstream comic series, or limited mini-series. For example, things like:
- Spider-Man: Life Story
- Spider-Man: Spider's Shadow
- Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
- Superman & Batman: Generations, An Imaginary Tale
- Superman: Red Son
- Superman: Space Age
- Superman: Secret Identity
- the Earth One line of comics
Then there are comics series that do progress and have a definitive end, such as:
- Invincible
- Irredeemable
Elseworld stories are mostly how I've consumed comics too to be honest. Your list there is awesome, I've read some but not all of those stories so thanks for the recommendation!
I also went through a big phase of reading DC fanfic stories.
I love Comic Books and Superheroes but I completely agree with every point made about this video.
I’ve had discussions with other comic fans about the big issues with Marvel & DC and yes, we all agree that “The Big Two” are either being too corporate or creatively restricting with their popular IP’s.
I have read other comics by different publishers and genres and I think they deserve just as much attention.
I'd love to see more indie and niche comics get some love in the mainstream. I have some friends who are die hard DC / Marvel fans but I just can't bring myself to get into them.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptman I think it would be great if indie developers can make a comic that will challenge the expectations that we've been getting in marvel and DC for years now like you know a character that actually Stays developed your villains are allowed to develop as well like killing some of them off or even redeem some of them and then give them the endings that they actually deserve
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Have you heard of or read any comics by Eric july ??? He's and indie guy with his own super-heroes ( he owns them ) called the Rippaverse,he sells his titles from his website. Eric has been extremely successful with his comic line in the last few eyars.
As a manga-only reader american super heroe comics feel like a chore. Each super heroe mythology feels like its own One Piece level read.
"Chore" is the perfect way I'd describe them too, if you're really into keeping up with the whole narrative and all the retcons/resets.
One piece? Don't overstated it, one piece is long, but it's not hard to follow the story. I would say Fate series/Nasuverss is more equal to Marvel/DC counterpart of storytelling model where there are so many route and it's so hard for beginner to understand it
@@NeeilsRoze813That is actually a perfect take. The amount of Fate/ series that I have seen make it seem almost... cheap. Like even if they tell a great story, so what? Here's another one right afterwards that means just as much to the overarching story, figure out how that works. Which is my main problem with these stories, things feel cheap after they're rebooted.
Finally someone to say it
I've been thinking of making this video for a while as it's definitely something that bugs me!
And you wonder why current comics are not as good because these writers keep giving us the illusion that some type of real progress is happening to the world and characters themselves but yet they been lie to us about any type of real progress that any type of hero or villain has gone through all of that change ain't going to matter if they are just going to reset the status quo anyway it makes you not want to read comic books anymore because the only way to get the best stories of a comic book is to make them yourself and it's fine if you don't get much money out of it but I rather read a free comic made by a fan then anything DC and marvel ever made because at least the fans fix every mess up things that have been happening in comic books or even remove plot holes that don't make sense in a comic book anyway
Eh, it's not really a new complaint and mostly is just the fault of a view point. Either you break continuity and retake a tale in a new way, or you get One Piece, Naruto, or Dragon Ball going on for eternity.
I hard disagree. While the idea that these heroes exist in a state of perpetuity can result in dejection, that is a fundamentally *wrong* way to engage with the art form imo. Superhero comic books aren’t a chore you get through for the sake of completion, they’re storylines you invest into for any given hero. The moment you find yourself just reading for completion is when you should stop reading that story.
Nobody expects you to wade through decades of published material for a single character, just focus on a certain author’s work on a character and read the more definitive stories for said character. Despite popular belief many storylines actually so have satisfying conclusions for its characters, like Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow being a “conclusion” to the Bronze age of Superman before entering into the modern era. These eulogy stories serve as “ends” for characters in spite of their perpetual existence. I find that comics have been having miniature solutions to the perpetuity problem for a while now - most notably with legacy heroes that necessitate an altered status quo to function.
I also feel the “modern myth” status applied to comics here in this video are just unfair, comics are just a collection of stories, same as any book series or other reading medium. Contrary to popular belief comics are always evolving and shifting unlike Myths, ideas change and these characters are explored through the ages in a way that aligns with the times of the day. I see this as an undeniable strength, it’s fascinating being able to read a Superman story from 40 years ago and hop to a Superman story from last year, seeing the different interpretations of authors and artists tackle the same fundamental ideals that Superman is supposed to represent is nothing short of inspiring. Nothing here is mythic, it’s just creative people taking their shot at painting a canvas with their own flare and touch. When you think about comics in this way, and not a singular novel that needs completing, it’s a way funner and more rewarding experience. To go in wanting the comic medium to function like an open-and-shut novel is a categorical error, and is unfair to superhero comics as I believe they’re being engaged with incorrectly.
I get what you're saying, and I think it's definitely possible to enjoy standalone stories for what they are, as I mentioned in the video. But my issue is when you begin to engage with the mainline comic narrative, as DC & Marvel probably hope and intend, which is where we see the problems arise. And even if you can find satisfaction in a particular story or ending for a character, there are 100s to 1000s of alternate stories and endings that may even contradict each other. So there is no "true ending" for a character - only possibly the ending you choose to settle with.
But I do want to emphasise that I understand not everyone will share my gripes. And I think the points you make in your final paragraph are very fair and well written.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt same to you, I definitely understand the desire for these characters to have a definitive “end” as well. Stories aren’t stories without a beginning, middle and end after all. I think it’s a difference of scope and perspective, I embrace the lack of a definitive end for these characters, and love how they shift and blend with the tide of our own societies and our unique (or age-old) problems, but that same quality can be a complete valid source of frustration if you prioritize the overall narrative.
I definitely felt a twinge of that when Sinestro’s character had a brilliant ending in the New 52 storyline, only for it to be undone because the writers couldn’t think of anyone better to fill in his role as a villain. There is definitely something to be said about just letting things simply end, and I do see the value of that.
I can agree with this video. I am done with DC & Marvel Comics because they do not give their characters the ending they deserve. The companies only see them as cash grabs. For example, Nightwing was supposed to marry Starfire, and someone else would have led the Titans, but Bat Editorials took Nightwing back from the Titans, causing the writers to scrap that idea. This would have ended up ruining Dick Grayson's character in the later comics. The same can be said for Spiderman because of that garbage One More Day storyline where they erased Peter's marriage with MJ simply because the writers think the audience won't relate to a Married Spider-Man. It was a stupid decision because they ruined his character development. As someone who loves Superheroes, I am tired of DC & Marvel not giving those characters any proper closure.
This is why I prefer reading Novels. They usually give the protagonists the ending they've always deserved. I love the ending of Deathly Hallows as Harry completes his mission and his conflict with Voldemort comes to a fitting conclusion. Heck, even Indie Comics/Graphic Novels & Manga are way better than DC & Marvel.
Couldn't agree with you more. It actually ends up feeling depressing, at least to me, seeing comic characters constantly unsatisfied and having their progression taken away from them. I love books but I don't have as much time to read them nowadays as I used to.
Do you blame them for seeing the characters as cash grabs? They need money fella
@@mrgumelo4067 I get that they want Money, but they kept ruining those characters again and again. It was getting tiresome.
@@mrgumelo4067 That not good excuse to ruin good characters and ruin character growth just saying it not
I agree with you. Japanese super hero Mangas like ''One punch Man'' and ''My Hero Academia'' doesn't have repetitive storyline, they have character development and their story has a potential for a definitivement conclusion.
I haven't read or watched My Hero Academia but I heard a lot of fans were disappointed by the ending - what did you think?
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Without giving any spoilers it a lot of elements like:
1-The main characters not ending up with the Love interested that were hinted since the beginning of the story.
2- The main character contradicts his own rules to beat the ''Final boss'' and cannot be the number 1 hero anymore (his life long dream).
3- Some character never had a good character development compared to the most popular ones.
4- The Main villain of the story became a complete joke.
I disagree
Problem is they run the risk of not knowing when to die with grace and to become zombies that drag on long after they should have. Was Dragon Ball Super REALLY for the best? Did we Really need it? Was it even good? Or did it drag the established characters through the mud just to keep the plot rolling?
One piece has over a thousand chapters now, that's insane. Is anyone actually reasonably expected to read that?
I think one of the reasons why comic industry has been on the decline and manga has been blooming is just this. No meaningful progression. That's why the only comics I've been reading last couple of years have all been indie stuff. They actually feel like real stories. And if you really want to read superhero stories there are countless superheroes indie comics out there.
I'd like to read more indie comics but I guess it's hard to know where to start without a recommendation since they aren't as mainstream. I hope the indie side of the industry grows larger though.
Ironically the stories that often seem to stand out in superhero comic books tend to be the ones that have their own continuity, meaning a beginning and an ending, take for example Frank Miller's Batman timeline, Year One, The Long Halloween and Dark Knight Returns are from the same timeline and you see that time progresses in those stories, things change over time
I think that definitely proves that people do crave an ending, even if they don't realise it. Those are the stories that stand out for me as well.
Yup. The only DC stuff I read these days are elseworlds like the books you mentioned including Kingdom Come but they even try to milk that. Looking forward to the upcoming Absolute line. Wish they would just start slowly aging their characters but it will never happen as long as they can make $$$$.
Long Halloween wasn't by Frank Millar and it was released like 10 years after TDKR
@@nielsfrederiksen6636 but it's still part of the same continuity
Yes! Like the Phoenix saga, but that's because it had a beginning, a middle, and an end.
Jack Kirby originally wanted to kill Darkseid but DC wouldn't let him. He wanted it to just be a story not a forever
Respect to him - I didn't know that!
Being a DC or Marvel superhero sounds like a living hell. Imagine a reality where you have to fight crime every day and deal with your family without aging and achieving your own goals. Everything you do will never matter, and you will soon become a villain yourself.
It's super depressing lol. They're trapped in an endless doom loop of suffering.
Mangas are way better because of this exact reason, also maybe most of image comics works don’t have infinite loops but actual endings like invincible or Twd
This is a dumb way to look at it, it's separate continues. That's like saying the Batman from the Tim Burton films is the same Batman from the Christopher Nolan films. Obviously not, they aren't linked.
They’re just stuck in purgatory
That idea of superhero comics being a mythology really fits the constant rehashes done with characters to fit the times. They feel more like something you jump into for a while rather than following for life.
I do get this, but I also think it's a mistake to relate superheroes too closely to mythology as they serve fundamentally different purposes. I have a video coming in the future talking a bit about mythology.
I understand and sometimes agree with the criticism that superheroes never undergo enough character growth. However, as a fan who's obsessed over continuity, I'd like to challenge this assertion somewhat. Instead of a floating timeline, I'd like to suggest a "glacier's pace" timeline for how things really work. Just look at one character as an example. If time doesn't move in universes like DC, then how did Robin grow and age into Nightwing?
Dick Grayson is usually canonically stated to be 8 years old when he started as Robin all the way back in 1940. Then he leads the Teen Titans as Nightwing in the eighties, meaning obviously he still has to be some kind of teenager during that time. Going into the nineties, he seems to be a legal adult working solo. So in the late eighties, he must be somewhere between 17 and 18. Doing some rudimentary math, I deduced that an entire decade of publication history can equate roughly to...two years in a character's life. And thus the DC Universe (and I'm going to assume Marvel) inched forward this way all the way up till the early 2010s. However, I don't think things work that way anymore because the 2010s became the decade of reboots. First the New 52 and then Rebirth. About every five years, the statue quo resets so hard that Bruce Wayne literally becomes a younger man each time. If that's happening to him, then his kids must not be getting to age anymore either.
I believe Batman was the most reliable benchmark for how the heroes grew in their respective lives. Because of always wanting to cater to moviegoing audiences in this age, characters aren't allowed to grow in the same way they could when they were less mainstream. Thus I posit we won't see Damian Wayne grow in the same way we saw Dick. But I hope some writers some day are able to advance continuity while still honoring what came before.
I was mostly thinking about the constant resets, as you described. I guess the floating timeline has a kind of "range". So some characters can age within this range and assume new roles, but other characters are stuck at a fixed point in their lives.
For anyone who doesn’t like comic books/doesn’t like them anymore, read Immortal Hulk.
Hear me out: It’s a flawless combination of a deep study of dissociative identity disorder, Jungian psychology, esoteric and mystic hermeticism, the esoteric teachings of the Jewish Kabbalah, theology, the philosophy of religion at large, powerful anti-capitalist messages, politics, supernatural and psychological thriller, emotional drama, cosmic horror, and body horror. There’s so much to unpack and study. Its homages to classic ’80s horror films (i.e. The Thing, Alien, The Fly) are impeccable. Also, the way it ends, how it ties everything back together, bringing the story full circle as if it were meticulously thought out from the very beginning, is breathtaking.
A masterpiece in a league of its own, reminding us what comic books can truly be.
While manga format has an advantage over comic book format I REALLY don't like the idea of a permanent ending, I want an ongoing story to indulge reading, permanent ending endings only work in books and novels with realisms, NOT in fictional world of superheroes and alike
Fair enough! I like having endings personally but to each their own.
My thing is even senseless fun comes to an end. A meme show like the Disastrous Life of Saiki K.( an anime of some renown that is mostly comedy) has almost no narrative through-line, yet I find it highly enjoyable. My problem with the major comics is they want it both ways. They want six batmans, fifteen hundred spidermans, and a hulk lf every color AND a narrative through-line that connects them all. A character that is obviously a plot device being treated like a character is ten times worse than a character who is a plot device being treated as such. If you follow what I'm saying. That's just for me though.
@xavierthomas5835
You got a good point about Batman but not for the Hulk, what you're talking about are Hulks transformatioms, expanded family and villains
@mr.knightthedetective7435 My mistake, I mean, specifically, the hulks that are created using Bruce banner as a base. Grey Hulk, Green Hulk, the red Hulk in some continuities, etcetera. Though, in all honesty, the different hulks are one of the better done iterations of the same premise with different results as most of them are not just Bruce from different universes.
@xavierthomas5835
Grey Hulk is one of Banners/Hulks altars but I guess he's redundant these days and Red Hulk is Hulks villain so its not that big of an issue imo
Man, the points you made were spot on all my reasons to dislike Marvel and DC (and even some Image) comic books. I was a big comic book enthusiast growing up, bought Spider-man and other titles monthly for years, but eventually it struck me: "hey, this is going nowhere! There's no actual change, no endgame plan and they are starting to recycle plotlines."
This was some years ago and since then, the more I think about it, the more I dislike this approach. All the things you said, including the comparison with manga, I've been saying for some years.
Good video, it's nice to see someone else feels the same way!
Also, about the cultural impact and the profit, I believe they could have ended these comic books years ago and still get the money exploring the brand. Think Sandman, The Walking Dead or other titles. One doesn't need a comic book to be "eternally ongoing" to profit from it's characters. Specially today, when these characters generate more profit from movies than from their original medium.
Thank you glad you enjoyed the video! Your journey with comics is very similar to my own, I remember as a kid watching the Spiderman Saturday morning cartoon and I loved the character so much. When I got older I tried to get into comics but I became increasingly frustrated with the format.
I see comics as telling the same story over and over, and I see no problem with that. In other words, I am entirely unconcerned with seeing the thousands of Batman issues as one cohesive story. Rather, I see them as repeating the same basic story (in several well-worn variations) over and over again. And again, I have no problem with that. Many myths and fairytales tell the same story over and over. How many westerns begin with a lone gunfighter riding into an isolated frontier town and end with him riding out of that town? Or think about Romance movies. Meet cute. They fight, and then they fall in love. Or Agatha Christie mysteries. The same formulaic stories over and over again. Why keep writing these stories? Because people like them. Once you've found a formula that delights people, why not keep milking it for all it's worth? When I get tired of these stories (which I do), I simply shift focus to a different type of story (history, classic novels, true crime stories, etc.). When I tire of these, I go back to Superman with relish.
The status quo has always been the #1 problem in comics. No matter how insane the threat or charactsr developement everything is set back to 0. Its why Elseworld stories in these fictional universes are so popular; they exist in their own bubble and have a beginning, middle and end.
The only comic book character I can remember off the top of my head that actually takes advantage of the decades he's been around is Eddie Brock/Venom. His developement from a villain to Anti-hero just trying to be better is amazing. Even if it felt roundabout at times lol
The characters are doomed to cycle around endlessly, without being able to make any real change or progress.
FYI the manga industry is slowly adopting the comic format.
The biggest example is Dragon Ball. This manga ended in the 80s/90s. Yet because of continued demand, the author and company made a sequel series called Dragon Ball super. We see same comic tropes and repeating ideas here as well.
Multiverses, dead villains coming back to life, kids staying perpetually the same age (until recently), and a different artist writing the story. Overall the status quo continues as well.
Boruto is another example, as it continues the Naruto IP and also has comic tropes like aliens, time travel and other types of powers escalation.
Basically, the super popular manga IPs become permanent soap operas, comic western superheroes style. This is a new phenomenon but may increase in the future.
You're right... Sadly greed ends up corrupting creativity. Boruto seems just awful to me and I've heard lots of stories of manga editors trying to interfere with popular series to keep milking them. Hopefully they don't get too ruined... But we'll see.
I slightly disagree with your view that character development is essential to story telling (though I would agree that most of the best stories have it), or more specifically, I don't think that the protagonist necessarily has to change through the course of a story. Characters like Superman or Tintin don't need character arcs or even flaws for their stories to be interesting and enjoyable. With that said, change in general is inevitable and essential in any story (as in life), and it really cheapens a story when there is a precedent of endless retcons and take-backs. If the protagonist does not change, they should at least change the world around them. Unfortunately, business has defeated art when it comes to mainline DC/Marvel comics. The illusion of change is somehow worse than if there were no change at all (like in a newspaper comic strip), because it carries a promise that will never be delivered on.
Really fair point, and I agree with you actually. All Star Superman comes to mind as a story I love where the main character doesn't change at all (really). The more I think about it, the more such stories definitely have a place, but I wouldn't want to see them become "too" commonplace.
I like superheroes, and I like specific comics, but I don’t enjoy reading comics as a whole.
I understand. 2000 were the last decade of good superhero comics. I don't see why anyone starting now would be a fan for life. I think the Marvel-DC model was great from the 60s through the 2000s, but it gave everything it could.
I'm pretty much the same as you to be honest.
You have no idea how much a relate to this sentiment, this is the main reason why it’s hard for me to invest in stories anymore a lot of works of fiction has this problem it’s not just comics almost everything video games,tv,movies etc. I wish stories could be true stories again reaching a natural conclusion instead of getting milked for profit only to end horribly with unresolved conflicts and ruined characters transformers 5 is a big one that comes to mind, instead of making a story that continues what was setup in the last film and concluding things paramount wanted to create a cinematic universe that made no sense 🤦♂️ and don’t even get me started on the sonic franchise the characters are essentially ageless immortal beings that can’t change the status que. Luckily we still have a few gems like league of legends arcane that’s gonna be concluding this year but I was surprised when I seen fans complaining about how the show is ending with season 2 so it just shows the people just want to consume a series endlessly without end
I can't wait for Arcane! True there'll probably always be people who want a series to keep going but I think that's on the writers or the person with the creative vision to stand up and be bold enough to give their definitive ending. I agree with you that sadly money is ruining a lot franchises by endlessly milking them.
You were talking about how character deaths have no impact anymore, and I started thinking about Kamala Khan's death in Spider-Man. While it was trying to be a tragic thing that shocks us, the internet was already guessing how long before she'd get brought back (especially since Ms. Marvel had just debut in the MCU around this time). Turned out she was dead for two months before she got resurrected. And changed from an Inhuman to a Mutant to match the show.
Another problem I notice with comic books is that their history is so convoluted. Almost every character has such a tangled-up history of plots, characters, and interactions that DC and Marvel have to have 'Crisis Events' to reboot the universe and cut through the tangled backstories. But then they inevitably tangle them all up again with retcons and plot twists and shocking moments that you need to read multiple issues with other characters to understand, and then they do another event to untangle it all. Over and over again. We get things like 'Character A died. But now he's alive again. But now he's evil. But now it turned out it was a fake/evil twin. But then he really is alive. But he's been brainwashed. But then it turns out he's from another universe. But then he dies again. But then the real original one gets revived. But then etc., etc., etc.
Someone had to spill the bean, finally.
I've been chewing on this for a while!
The only thing I wished you touched more on was the elseworld stories.
I absolutely agree with everything you said, I've studied comic history my whole life and the Sisyphus effect of pushing the boulder uphill definitely gets old. But elseworld stories that actually are allowed to give characters satisfying endings because they don't need to adhere to the status quo are always amazing. Ex. Injustice comics kill heroes off and the stay dead, secrets get revealed and all effects the world and story. Same for the ultimate comics in Marvel. It's to the point I read more elseworld books than mainline series. Why watch Peter struggle with his horrible late 20s dating life when I can see him deal with being spiderman while also being a working husband and father.
Sisyphus is the perfect comparison for how I feel about comics. You do raise a really fair point about elseworld stories, I guess for myself I view them more as fanfic so I still get frustrated by thinking of the "official" story the characters are trapped in. But you're completely right that's probably a better way to enjoy these stories.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I totally understand why you view them as fanfics. You're not the only one plenty of people see it that way that's why most are afraid to even pick up a elseworld story, they don't see what they can really gain out of it as far as a sense of satisfaction goes. But I see elseworld books more as, "What if these characters stories actually had a payoff"
For example if you haven't already, I highly suggest reading the ultimate Spider-Man comics from the 2000s. It's the perfect example of a story that has a beginning middle and end for its characters. And to be honest it's one of the best Spider-Man books marvel has made in decades. Same thing for the dark Knight books. In my opinion these versions of these characters are the ones fans often think of more than the main line counterparts. You can actually make a drinking game out of how often comic fans mistake something that happened in a else world book as Canon to the main series. Elseworld books actually give these characters the stories they deserve completely removing the boulder from the equation. I would generally love to hear your thoughts on the elseworld stories that actually surpass what the mainline issues do in contrast.
@@MADLADCOMICS You make a really strong case for them! And the stories you described do sound very appealing, I'll have a look at the Spiderman run you mentioned, because I love Spiderman, and I may end up making a video on it!
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptas a reader of Spider-man since the late 70's, Ultimate Spider-man is probably one of the best runs l've ever read in comics.
Worth a read (just ignore the tie in to Ultamatum)
The only issue I have with elseworld stories is that sometimes the writers go a bit overboard on upsetting the status quo; usually when killing off characters. It's also a problem in multiverse stories. We go from characters being basically unkillable to being killed off with no fanfare. Like in Ultimatum where several characters get killed by the tidal wave, Wasp gets eaten by Blob, and Doctor Strange gets strangled by his own cape (powered by Dormammu, but still). Or Marvel's What-if, where Thanos got lasered in half by Ultron as soon as he appeared. Or DC's Apokolips War, where we see heroes and villains die by the dozen in a classic example of 'burning the franchise'.
Just because it's not the main series doesn't mean we need to have kill counts in the dozens. Or for powerful opponents to get killed off so easily.
My main gripe against videos like this is…no one who reads comic books actually want anything to “end.” Like you said you’re a casual reader….so this is a almost like a backseat drivers opinion. Then you have people comparing in the comments talking about letting the characters “end” or comparing it to Harry Potter? You should understand the medium first before saying stuff like this because the characters absolutely do grow. Comic books are like Mythology…I’ve never heard anyone complain about Zeus being “out of character.”
I think equating comic books too closely to mythology is a bit of a trap, as they serve different purposes and are told in different ways. That's true it's just my personal opinion though, I know some people may disagree with me.
Well said. True comic book readers want to perpetuate this hobby as much as possible. This guy clearly outed himself as a non-comic book reader, or at least a very recent one.
Is there anything wrong about not liking comics beacause you like good stories with satisfying endings?
Like he said it's hia opinion.
He doent have to read every comicbook to know that he won't find what he likes
@@killerjx4732 Comics are filled with good stories and characters don’t “regress” as much as people who obviously don’t read comics like to say. I’m not saying he should like them but if you barely read them you don’t need to talk about them. Opinions can be wrong. You guys just want everything to fit into little boxes so you can compare. Comic stories are special cause they don’t end. Also the status quo doesn’t stay the same. There’s more than one way for stories to exist. Every Arc has a conclusion. There is resolution in stories. Development and so much more that you wouldn’t know of you don’t read.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Mythology is much closer than Manga or anything of the like because comics always change hands. I get what you’re saying but too many people make videos like this, it’s never any new points always “comics don’t end…why can’t Brice Wayne retire.” Obviously cause we don’t want those things…it’s a little insulting to comic fans
Having a floating timeline isn't inherently a bad thing. A lot of manga do that. Kaguya sama and Oshi no ko are pretty famous examples of this.
I guess as a concept it's not inherently bad, but the way it's been used by DC and Marvel is.
I've been reading comics since I was 7 years old (I'm 49 now) and I've followed almost all of the major Marvel-DC sagas: Death of Elektra, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Secret Wars, John Byrne's Superman, Frank Miller and David Mazzuchelli's Daredevil, Spider-Man's Clone Saga, the Death of Superman... I stopped collecting superhero comics in the mid-90s because I realized that the stories always repeated the same cycle, without ever being renewed. Today I read European comics (Tintin and Italian Fumetti) and some mangas (Akira and Battle Angel Alita). I also reread the classic Marvel and DC stories that I read as a child.
I've heard a lot of people saying on this video interestingly that they're switching to European comics nowadays. I need to check some out.
"When a mamga ends, it often provides closure for its characters and the audience"
Gege Akutami:👀
Haha, can't argue with you there. Sad about how JJK ended.
This is why I read indie comics. Self contained stories that don’t get dragged out, reset or trapped in a series of never ending reboots and crossovers. Just a straightforward plot with lovable characters and a satisfying conclusion.
Indie companies across all industries are just so much better than mainstream big orgs.
My problem are retconns. Look at DC‘s Talia for example. She started only as Ra‘s daughter,progresses in the 90s, becomes Independent and still loves Bruce. Then Morrison ruined it and set her back and created the worst villain in entire comic books with evil Talia. Currently, she lost all her progression from a moral grey character to a buisness woman which was likeable. She is now broke (?) since Ram V‘s Detective run.
Yeah agreed retcons are horrible and frustrating.
You've got some very good points here. Very good. Here's some of my own. Comics are something of an outgrowth of the Pulps of the Thirties. These were adventure stories that were meant to be disposable entertainment. They were written (at least the Doc Savage ones were) according to a formula. They came out once a month. I had a collection of them and one time I set out to read one a week (about 20 pages a day). For the first time I saw just how formulaic they really were!
Superhero comics evolved from those beginnings. Nobody had ever seen anything like Superman before. While Doc Savage was totally human (albeit, the world's most perfectly developed human) Superman only looked human. He could do things impossible for a human being to do. Part of the reason for this was that the comics were being aimed at kids. Pulps had a more adult reading level, and while a grownup might be just willing to suspend his disbelief of Clark Savage Junior running fast enough to catch up to an automobile, a kid, looking at the cover of Action Comics Number 1, was thrilled with the impossible picture of Superman lifting a 1937 Ford over his head. The kid don't care that it's impossible-he's just enjoying his astonishment. Plus, the story itself gives him an explanation to show him a way in which this impossible thing might actually be possible. Sense of Wonder activated in Overdrive.
In those early days of comics not too many kids cared about continuity. The comic creators still thought of themselves as creating disposable entertainment. They sure didn't regard themselves as creating literature. Most of them couldn't wait to graduate to more respectable forms of literaty entertainment. It was a business run by deadlines. If you were a prolific creator, you weren't really keeping track of continuities. Even in the Sixties, when Marvel was trying to upgrade to two-dimensional characters, instead of one dimensional, they still weren't keeping a totally airtight continuity. Jack Kirby hints at the origin of Black Bolt's power. “Look-Black Bolt-he's screaming-for the first time since-THE ACCIDENT!” Several issues later we find out there was no accident. He was pretty much born that way.
That's excuseable. That was in the days before continuity got to be really important. If one plot thread didn't seem to go anywhere, it was easy to get a better idea and act like that had always been the idea right from the beginning. Sometimes it didn't work out for the readers. First time they introduced the Silver Surfer, he was this totally alien, inhuman, soulless, emotionlesss being. It was hinted that he'd been around for, maybe even billions of years. Lee took the character, gave him to a different writer, and now the Surfer's only been Galactus' herald for what-a few months? And he's as human and angst ridden as any one of us!
I largely agree with you. Comics exist in a weird time that almost is not a time. Marvel called it “Marvel Time.” That was their way of explaining how you could read a story that ran for twelve months in real world time-yet in-story, the action took place over a twenty-four hour period. The medium was still disposable entertainment. But the readers became more sophisticated. They wanted a little more depth to their stories. And they started to care about the continuity. They needed a bit more than the “superhero battle dejour.” They wanted a little bit more meat to the product.
You pointed out the basic difference between Western Comics and Manga. Manga has a more realistic perspective, meaning-beginning, middle and end. Despite the totally unbelieveable story ideas of some Manga, it still has that real world sense of reality. There is no gurantee that the characters, despite how powerful they are, or how popular they are, aren't going to die. Because that's what people do in the real world. We can relate to them in that way. We feel a kinship with them.
Western Comics, however, yes-there is almost always going to be a Superman, a Batman, and a Spider-Man. And this is because, I think, that what is being expressed here, is not something which is human. Manga characters come from a human perspecitive. But those of the Western Comics aren't really depicting human beings-but Gods. And these Gods are more like the Greek Gods. They don't really die.
The Golden Age Flash-his costume was even patterned after Mercury.
Hawkman was the reincarnation of an Egyptian prince-and as a hawk (though it was never explicitly stated) he was an expression of the hawk God, Horus.
Captain Marvel had the distilled power of three Greek Gods, two Greek heroes, and one Hebrew King.
And in the Silver Age you had Thor-and he really was a God.
Over the years, the writers and editors have been making efforts to grow their field up. Yes, they're still working with the Status Quo. There's a necessity to that, because folks keep on wanting to see the adventures of their favorite characters. But as the medium matures, they begin to become aware of inherant problems-and some of the writers come up with really ingenious solutions to these problems. They solve them by, as much as possible, moving beyond the Status Quo, and by really having a genuine love of the characters.
And sometimes, they find a way of making the Status Quo work for them. In 1985/86 DC published Watchmen, exploring how the real world might be affected had costumed adventurers (and one rather uncostumed one with real superhuman power) actually existed. The story had a beginning, a middle, and an end. Then in 2018/19 they merged the Watchmen universe with the regular DC universe. They managed to solve one of the biggest problems in the comics. Superman's story has been rebooted a number of times. First showing up in 1938, he was recreated and his story changed in 1986, updating it, modernizing it, making it fresh once again. But each rebooting, would negate many of the previous stories. If you have Superman showing up in 1986 for the first time-what do you do with the fact that he actually showed up first in 1938? Your comic book reality doesn't gibe with the real world time line.
You solve it by regarding your comic universe as an organism constantly redefining itself. So each appearance and attempt to portray the character, remains valid. That's what they did in Doomsday Clock, the Watchmen sequel, where Doctor Manhattan of the Watchmen Universe, discovers the nature of the DC Universe.
This of course doesn't answer everthing. Some readers aren't looking for anything more in-depth than a story set pretty much in the latest up-to-date continuity. Many of them might still be like kids, wanting only some disposeable entertainment. They won't be collectors, and they certainly won't give two cents whether Batman is fighting the Polka-Dot Man, or the Parliament of Owls. But there are those who are going to want something more, those who recognize the pure potential that exists in these stories. There are going to be those, like me, who won't let ourselves be hamstrung by a Statue Quo, who will instead, know how to use it and make it work. And we'll know the nature of the characters and medium we're working with. And we'll know enough to tell the difference between the Manga-type, of humans writ large, and the Western Comics-type, or Gods powered down to human level. And therein lies the hope.
This was such an interesting read - thanks for taking the time to type it up and share your knowledge! You make some excellent points and I particularly enjoyed learning more about the history and origin of the characters & superhero medium.
They should have done the Japanese manga approach. It makes the story more consistent
Yep agreed I'd prefer this.
Those are some fair points. I for one love comic books since the vast majority I read are about Good overcoming evil. They have morals, good characters, and great stories. No matter how cynical I get, I can count on a story uplifting my spirits.
The power levels make sense in individual stories and can be easy to get into if you look up a guide for particular series.
As for end points I take certain issues at “the end” For example Amazing Spider-Man ended for me when Ben took over the mantle while Peter went to start a family with MJ. Then I just read Spider Girl from that point forward.
I get where you're coming from - I do really like that aspect of comic books of good overcoming evil, and creating heroes we can look up to and aspire to be. Especially in the cynical modern landscape, it's important to keep telling stories like this.
To be absolutely fair, many of these problems aren’t new for DC and Marvel, like by the mid 80’s Captain America had died and come back to life 4 times
I’ve been a marvel and DC fan for most of my life, but you are right. This is actually something a friend and myself have discussed numerous times.
100% agree, it's the same problem that Star wars and doctor who have. If there's always money involved then there will always a reason to continue the story. Even though everything must have it's end
Sadly money & greed always ends up ruining true creativity...
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptyeah man this is mainly about the company benefiting itself it doesn't care if the readers want a ending to their story or even allow their characters to develop because they're just going to keep on making the success that they have of that character these companies just don't care this is why you're better off making your own comic book in your mind then letting greedy corporations doing it because don't we just get tired of comic books that don't have direction because without direction in your story then your story we'll just be boring as hell because the comic itself doesn't even know what to do with itself this is why comic books are this bad and I know I said I would blame the writers but let's not forget not all of this is their fault either at least not completely it's mainly just greed from the higher-ups that just forces these writers to make the stories that we didn't ask for instead of the writer being free to do what he/she wants with it they don't have the freedom to give your story the ending that you want because the only thing that these companies care about is just money and they'll do anything to do that even if it means recycling the same stories that we already read before in the past
@@JustinJulian-00 I mostly blame the high ups because I'm sure there are a lot of creative and passionate writers out there who have their hands tied by the execs. I'd love to create my own comic series but sadly I'm a rubbish artist. Perhaps one day I'll be able to write my own novel instead.
I agree. Sometimes it's ok for stories to just....end
I, for one, disagree. I've been in this phase of valueing indie comics and manga more than super hero comics (and to some extent I do still prefer one over the other), but to say that comics are bad for things that are intrinsec to their narrative is a bit naive.
First of all, story telling is not about developing characters. Is about how you tell a story. And that involves the features of the media you work on. For comics, it's the situation in itself, the characterization of the characters, the rythm of the story, the usage of the panels (sizes, formats) and how they relate (sequentiality and simultaneity), how much is up to the text and how much is up to the drawings to tell. There are many examples of stories well regarded which the characters don't change by the end of it. American Psycho, Uncut Gems, No Country For Old Men, all of Batman Animated Series, many pulp chatacters like Conan and Zorro, many of the chatacters in Argentinian comics and Brazilian comic strips.
I'm not saying stories where characters change aren't powerful, they very much are, but that's just ONE type of story telling.
Let's get Batman Animated Series for example. Batman, as a character, doesn't change in the series at all. But the episodes don't suffer from that. On the contrary, is the main strenght of the show. We're there to watch how this character will react to the situations he is in, how he'll deal with his opponents and perils and how he will change the characters around him because of who he is. There's an episode where a blue collar guy is blackmailed by the Joker, and he is scared to death. He changes by the end of the episode confronting Joker, but Batman and Joker are still the same.
Another thing is that, by this point in history, this cyclic state of comics is well understood by writers, artists and readers. That's why publishers tend to separate the publishing order by runs. Understanding that: Is not simply who the characters are, but what these specific creators do with them. Reading Ditko Spider-man is not the same as reading DeMatteis and Zeck's Spider-man. In that manner, I like to say that comics reading is not continuous, but contextual. The context being the historical period the story was told and who was the creative team. And maybe in the next month, things will all be retconned by the next creative team. But inside that context, things really mattered. And the cycle is so regarded that there are stories all about that. All Star Superman is about how Superman, an icon who just seems to be eternal and indestructible, is going to die. How can the world and Superman deal with this? Or comics like Animal Man, which I won't spoil.
And about the same stories being told over and over. I think you're right, but there's also an argument there. As I said, different creators will do different things, or do the same things but differently. We've been telling revenge stories for ages, but they aren't less effective. We've been retelling Shakespeare over and over, but it still works. Because what really matters is the story telling: How these same stories are being told. Most run of the mill comics can tell these stories in uninspired ways, but there are those who can be very good at it, and for that they get highlighted and praised.
And for characters not changing, you'd be surprised how much they actually change, and that's what really pisses fans off, which I just find stupid. Sure these changes don't last much and are propably bound to disappear (which is why I don't understand fandom anger) but some don't. Jonathan Kent and Damien Wayne are some examples, or Miles Morales and Spider Gwen. Or Robin becoming Nightwing. Winter Soldier, Beta Ray Bill, Night King... The list goes on.
As for my finishing point, I think there's so much good stories inside super hero comics that is just a waste not to read them because in two months some other guy will write the chatacters and either toss previous ideas away and start fresh (which I actually find interesting) or just write in auto mode. And sometimes writers will bring back old ideas and create great stories out of that. For instance, the Immortal Hulk, one of the most well regarded comics of our age, roots the Hulk in horror monster comics like his debut in the 60's. And if the writer after Al Ewing kept that or not, I couldn't care less.
All that I'm trying to say is "to each, his own". There can still be told original stories with these charactees, they changing or not. Story telling is not a one way train, it has multiple ways to be done. Hop on the super hero bus when it seems interesting, enjoy the ride and hop off when it best suits you, but don't expect it to go the ways you want. Read more comics.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, I think you've made some really interesting points that have given me something to think about. I do understand what you're saying - that the power of a story often comes from how it's told and the message it communicates. However, what I do find interesting is that the majority of the "good" examples you cite are stories that are told with a definitive beginning, middle and ending in mind. Like All Star Superman, which only has the impact it does BECAUSE Superman dies at the end. If that version of him was brought back, the story would lose its impact.
And you're right about stories being retold, like Shakespeare. But these are still defined, self contained stories. We don't see Hamlet the character being brought back for more adventures or stories, but what we see are re-tellings of the same story, which I can definitely be on board with (I really like your point about stories being retold with different historical contexts).
This is why I prefer indie comics such as Image, Dark Horse, Boom, Top Cow etc.
they provide the same experience as manga in that most of their titles are self contained stories with progression and don’t really suffer from the “status quo” effect. What sucks is that they don’t often get the exposure that they deserve. I think the problem is that the western world has gotten too accustomed with comics being associated with Marvel and DC. There has been more of an effort in recent years by adapting indie stuff into television (both live action and animated). But yeah, I highly agree. I stopped reading Marvel and DC years ago.
Indie comics are still great, I've added a bunch of series to my reading list from this comments section as well. My hope is eventually Marvel & DC's dominance in the industry is challenged, shaking up the whole comic industry.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt it’s certainly happening right now with Manga’s ever growing popularity in the west. This is more anecdotal, but most of the book stores I’ve gone to (Barnes & Noble) have reduced the comics section to two shelves while the manga section has increased into four or five shelves. Maybe Marvel and DC are too stubborn or too afraid of changing anything in fear of alienating some of their fans and potentially losing money, but if they don’t want to continue losing in their own home country it’s about time they started acting. Until then, I’m sticking to both indie comics and manga.
Agree with you manga is so much better!!
Thanks! A part of me thinks that comics will eventually lose out to manga unless they somehow adjust and adapt. Who knows though.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptI am really interested in comics (though tbh I've only read elseworld stories like Red Son and All-Star from DC/Marvel, because surprise surprise, they end lol) and there are several things people miss about the industry. While DC and Marvel may seem big, they are actually doing fairly poorly compared to other publishers. The market for comics is still thriving in the US despite what it may seem on the surface (most statistics don't make a difference between manga, American or European comics, but even American companies outside of "The Big Two" are doing pretty well).
The reason DC and Marvel still has cultural and financial relevance is their movies and shows, the companies have several wings that all depend on each other in some way and that's why they are unlikely to adapt or go away in the forseeable future lol
To everyone who dislike comics: Start to read Manga, Band Dessinées (Francophone comics) and independent American comics.
@@yggdrasil2 thanks for the suggestions!
@@yggdrasil2 That's very interesting. I'd heard that DC/Marvel comics have been struggling in recent years, but because I'm not really a major comic fan I don't know the details. To be honest I think it's a good thing - the industry needs a bit of a shake up.
I think it's the different in business models
With manga the IPs are the stories or the manga itself, and the characters are simply parts of it
But for comics, the IPs are the CHARACTERs, while the stories are the background, the lore or anything that defined that character. So as long as the character are popular enough you can milk it forever with the products made in its name, rebrand it, rewrite it, have it in another universe, make origin movie about it then remake it a few years later.,,
It's very capitalistic in its nature as it's for business purpose, like all commercial IP, Pepsi, Cocacola, KFC etc
The manga industry does have business purpose in its mind, but the fundamental is still telling a story to sell it to your audience, not creating characters as IPs.
Good point! This reminds me of something one of the Marvel actors said (can't remember who) - saying that the draw for MCU movies now is the characters not the actors themselves (very roughly paraphrasing).
I love DC comic books but I do also think that other comic books besides Marvel should get a time to shine
Yeah I'd like to see the industry diversify and have lots more publishers come up into the mainstream.
I think the main issue I have with this video is that it doesn’t consider the fun you can have by reading a run of a character without considering the background and enjoying it for what it is. Having a mentality of “I don’t like the illusion of change” can restrict your contact with good stories just because they are part of a never ending cash grab timeline.
Yeah I didn't mean this as a knock against anyone who enjoys the stories for what they are.
Great vid I totally agree I’ll never be able to get immersed in their worlds like I can with Oda’s
Thank you!
6:46 the interesting part about Spider-Man is that he wasn't really designed to go on forever, or if that was the idea they did not do it very well. Self-improvement, maturing and reaching different life milestones are all essential parts of his character from the very early days, and a core part of his appeal. Comicbook Spidey fans have been very unhappy for nearly two decades (since a certain infamous story arc) precisely because Marvel does everything to keep him in a perpetual state of miserable arrested development that goes against everything that made him such a popular character in the first place. You simply can't have a character whose motivation is to become a better person and at the same time never let them progress.
Your final sentence sums it up perfectly. Couldn't have said it better myself.
One of my biggest problems with comics even though I enjoy them is the refusal to let a character grow and evolve. Spiderman can't get married. Neither can Nightwing. So few get to be with someone and have an actual life. Plus Tim Drake has been written into a complete shadow of his former self. I like Damian Wayne unlike some fans but I do find it disappointing what Tim has become.
Tim went from decent and standing out (with not being an orphan) to just straight up being a copy of Dick Grayson. It's why I like Batman Beyond. I don't care what you say Tim becoming Joker Jr. is brilliant and, in my mind, should be his canonical fate.
100% agree, and I like Batman Beyond for the same reason as you. I think Bruce was shown quite well in Beyond as well, fairly realistically.
Spiderman also can't ever be successful either. He must always be the hero struggling to make rent; he must be the guy who can't keep a job or a relationship for long. I'm still mad that after he became a CEO of a company thanks to Superior Spider-Man he had to lose everything to accusations of plagiarism and the story treats it like all that stuff made him lose focus on responsibility.
So is Marvel saying that it's ok for Tony Stark to be a CEO but not Peter?
This is one of the reasons I love Worm/Parahumans so much. Im a big fan of superhero stories, but because of the reasons this video talks about I have never been able to really get deep into comics, but thats not the case with Worm. Its a web novel about a world with super heroes and villains, but its free to take really unique and interesting choices. For example, the main character is a teenage girl that wants to be a hero, but instead of some cool and powerful power, she has the ability to control bugs. Its pretty long, being about one and a half times the lenght of the whole Harry Potter saga, but its completely free and a definitive must read if you are a fan of superheros
Nice to see another Worm fan! I read it for the first time a couple of years ago and I really enjoyed it, a really cleverly done "hero" story with some well thought out powers.
I used to read that series, but I stopped reading somewhere around the end because there's only so much that can go wrong before you want the author to cut the characters some slack. I've always felt that Worm started out as a superhero story before slowly becoming a cosmic horror story. Where the only reason humanity is still alive is because the powerful beings toying with them want to make them all suffer for as long as possible.
@@cybertramon0012 Yeah thats fair, the main problem I hear people have with Worm is that the characters have it way too harsh. But to be honest, I feel like the cosmic horror part isnt even that out of place considering that both Marvel and DC, the "main" superhero franchises, each have like 50 eldritch god characters, so it's natural that Worm would end up there too. Its just that Worm handles It like how cosmic horror should be handled, unlike Marvel and DC were the "all powerful god of the abyss" is just another villain of the week that does zero permanent damage and doesnt affect the overall universe in any meaningful way after the characters beat It, which makes sense because Marvel and DC cant really change the status quo too much
Now i totally agree with the capitalization of characters in American comics and how they can be obnoxious... AND VERY HARD TO READ
BUT as a hardcore comic fan... I have a different perspective.
this is a BLESSING IN DISGUISE because of all the GREAT STORIES and runs that have been told out of this medium .
Ive read SUPERMAN runs from the 70s to the 2010s. And they both be GREAT, not because they do the same thing to Superman... But they're able to do in SOMETHING ENTIRELY NEW WITH HIM
Of course it can be confusing sometimes because of the these characters are famous and they need to be held up to a status quo.
However, there's FAR from a lack of CREATIVITY, heroes going to NEW WORLDS, facing DIFFERENT STRUGGLES.
Some of CAPTAIN AMERICA'S GREATEST STORIES wouldn't have happened if he died off world war II
Or BATMAN if he had stayed in the 60s and died off with the Adam West era
Say what you will, but these characters wouldn't be what they are without different people cooking different ideas in the kitchen .
So yeah it can be difficult, but I wouldn't let that stop you from exploring more... Just my opinion bro
Your examples are flawed since they're both in the 20th century. With Spider-Man, he changed and grew but ended up regressing. From teenager to adult to married man, but now he is stuck as unmarried, twenty something whose life will always be in shambles. Any change is temporary and the most innovation you can get is a new Spider person to add to a never ending list. A series that isn't meant to end will eventually have to stagnate.
@@DeBean970 I NEVER said that this was the BEST THING to happen to COMICS. Sadly not every character has benefited from this keeping to the status quo, especially Spider-Man. BUT I can tell you some of his BEST STORIES have been told almost 60 YEARS AFTER HIS CREATION.
I'm sorry to break it to you pal, ALTHOUGH I LOVE SPIDER-MAN, he's not ALL of comics
Almost ALL CHARACTERS have had their down slopes one way or another. But that doesn't mean there are no good stories left telling.
If ALL the FLAWS and MISS COMMINGS of comics are summed up in this one video, then what is the POINT OF THESE CHARACTERS ?!?
Thanks for sharing your perspective! I totally get what you're saying, and I agree that comics have produced a ton of great stories with passion and creativity baked in. I do still think though after a while it gets stale seeing the same characters struggle time and time again without any chance to ultimately triumph, but to each their own.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt of course man, thanks for commenting, I like the ideas you put in the video.
It’s more like there can be good stories in spite of this problem and not because of it.
My dad is obsessed with Marvel, DC and Star Wars since he was a kid. Tried to get me into it, and i did... When i was 5 years old.
I eventually learned a bit about storytelling, satisfying conclusions and complex narratives; quickly got ove them.
Superheroes are what Marshal McLuhan called, 'cliche probes', meaning the superhero character is a stable and familiar cliche, that allows you to tell a story about the world around him. Gotham By Gaslight isn't about Batman, it's about our ideas about the Victorian era. The X-Men isn't about the life of Wolverine and Cyclops, it's about racism and alienation. Spider-Man's purpose isn't to show you the character development of Peter Parker, it's to show you, over and over again, why with great power comes great responsibility. In other words, superhero comics aren't about characters, they're about concepts.
The kind of storytelling you prefer is actually a recent development, the character study, which basically came along with the Victorian novel. Before that, most storytelling was used as mythology, cultural model-making, informing members of a given society about shared virtues, vices and values. The lack of a shared cultural mythology or narrative is exactly the reason for the popularity of the superhero in America. We don't have any royal family or American born religious icons, we have Batman and Spider-Man.
I'd like to harp on your criticism about "Status Quo is King." I've gotten into the X-Men during the Krakoa era. It's really good. I enjoyed the idea that the X-Men finally had their own homeland, their own culture, and independence from humanity. There's also an Animal Farm type conflict baked into it where the Silent Council feels like they're just as secretive and corrupt as the human leaders they hated. But then what happened? Krakoa's gone now. X-men are back in Westchester. All for what? Brand Synergy!
Status Quo has gone worse in recent years because of the MCU. A lot of comics are being changed to reflect the movies and shows instead of vice versa. The comics are now the adaptation. And it sucks. We're not back to Peter Parker being a single loser. They even tried to bring him back to college after the Parker Industries arc. There's just no end. No progress.
Then when they do shake things up, it's always through edgy means that don't really elevate the narrative and often acts as character assassination. Take Injustice for example. That assassinated not just Superman, but characters like Hal Jordan and Wonder Woman too. And it keeps going. Every time DC is losing readers, its go-to move is either kill Superman or have Superman kill.
Even seemingly long term changes like the Deaths of Barry Allen and Hal Jordan got reversed decades later and now DC refuses to touch them because they're the "iconic" ones.
This is why I prefer manga and anime. In mainstream American comics, there's no One Piece, there's no being Hokage, there's no Dumpster Showdown, there's no unlocking the Pharaoh's memories, there's no goal. It keeps going because the characters have no arcs. Spider-Man keeps relearning the same lessons about responsibility decade after decade. Surely by now Batman would have learned to love his friends and family and be more open, right? Nope. If DC wants him to be an abusive brooding loner, he'll be one. If they want him to be a caring loving father, he'll be one. Often in the same universe, in the same timeline, sometimes in the same books almost erratically. In Manga, you know what Naruto wants. You see how Naruto learns. You see how Naruto grows. Then it ends. You mourn Neji's death because there's no way to bring him back.
This is also why Dragon Ball is bad now, it's become like mainstream American Comics. Characters don't stay dead. There's no clear goal for the characters or the story. It just keeps going. Goku and Vegeta keeps relearning the same lessons about efficiency and sacrifice. And then we just keep going until Toyotaro dies.
Honestly, I feel like jump is slowly getting to that point they rather do sequels to the already popular series
@@revolutionarydragon1123 theres only 2 one of which isnt even on jump and boruto was so hated they had to bring back the original writer anyways
You raise some really important and relevant points. Movies bleeding back into comics are probably (very sadly) unavoidable, since however mainstream audiences perceive characters is a big influence. And it takes a lot to change that perception.
Couldn't agree more about the manga and anime you mentioned. I find comics depressing in a way, seeing the characters struggle over and over again with the same problems and villains. They're just there to suffer.
Sadly money always ends up ruining creative works. I'm a strong believer that once a story is finished, it should be left to rest, but nowadays studios are too greedy and want to milk established franchises for all they're worth. But instead of creating original stories with new characters in the same universe, they milk and retroactively ruin old and existing characters.
Are you kidding?! the Krakoa era was awful ask any die hard x men fan and they tell you that series was horrible characters were acting themselves and all the inhumane and toxic stuff that happening in that series and i don't get me started on the whole polygamy and sharing each other husband or wives like what logan and scott were doing with jean and the child abandonment that was going because of the crap they doing yeah no that series was @ss and most comic fans in the x men community were glad it was over
Yeah - me too dude.
I like comic book characters. I hate comics.
I like this, I agree.
Nice to see someone else shares this same opinion as me. I could never get into Superhero comics because of these issues. They just get too repetitive and I also kinda hate how inconsistent the power levels are. In one issues the hero is their normal self but then the next they can destroy a planet with ease and the next they get knocked out by a sidekick. To me most superhero comics get a bit to silly with what the characters can do that I can’t really take it seriously. It’s why I prefer watching the cartoon shows or movie adaptations as they tend to make them less overpowered and have more of a story that has a beginning, middle and end. To me the DC animated universe is the definitive versions of most of the characters and for the DC universe as a whole.
Yeah I'm 100% with you. The DC animated universe and the Spiderman 90s show I both think are brilliant.
Great video, and i completely agree with you, I also thought once that it would be so good if comics are like mangas, just one continuity, one character and their stories end, but it's truly a mess there are so many versions of batman in comics that it's getting insane, just make one comic and end batman's story there but ofcourse they can't because money and it's understandable but we have movies to give us a satisfying conclusion to these characters so it's fine.
Thanks very much! Yeah unfortunately the money means the characters will likely never be allowed to rest.
As someone who wants to make their own comic unverse some day as a writer and artist,one thing i want to do differently is that i want my characters to actually have endings to their story. What i mean is that i actually want to give a lot of my characters proper endings. No bringing back to life or anything, actual ends to their story whether they are retired or dead.
Hell,apart of me wants the big crossover between my supeheros to be the big finale to the comic universe as a whole. Because all stories and characters should have endings
This sounds great. I'd love to make my own comic but I'm rubbish at drawing...maybe one day I can write something instead.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptor you can just imagine those scenarios in your mind yeah I would recommend doing that to get the full picture of how your comic book Universe would work
Well I guess you know about the Raimi trilogy has kinda harmed Spider-Man in the long run like I said before about Norman Osborn as everyone think was the case and I saw this video called Spider-Man 2 doesn’t get Spider-Man and how that it probably influence Zeb Wells run on Spider-Man and that Hollywood thinks Superman is a modern Jesus Christ which the creators are Jewish.
The thing about comic book characters is their movie and TV appearances filter into the mainstream consciousness, and then that in turns starts to influence their comic book portrayal. Superman has sadly been given a bad showing in the mainstream, along with a few other heroes.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptexactly and it’s the same with Harry Potter’s movie characters
@@srstriker6420 Yep 100%.
Are serious?! The Sam rami movies were awesome there the reason Why Spider man popularity sky rocketed again and all the Tv series and games that came after the trilogy bro what are talking about?!
100% agree
Thanks!
Amen. Another example is Batman's no kill rule, sure at one point in the beginning that was honorable, but you step back and see he's been fighting the Joker for a little over 80 years, decades of death and chaos, that no kill rule is getting harder to defend year after year. It's not just comics, but practically all of Western entertainment, especially TV/streaming shows, it's like they're all basically soap operas and reality shows, in soap operas you'll have characters you follow from birth to death, but we're keep following the story of their family and friends, couples who are fan favorites and have great chemistry will take forever to get together with numerous obstacles in their way, they'll get together a few times only for something to come along and break them up and if they do manage to get married and even have children they'll never be stable. In comics it's the same, Superman and Lois created drama from the beginning, he likes her, but she likes his alter ego, keeping his secret from her all these decades, she finds out, but there's always doubt on weither she loves all of him or just Superman and accepts Clark as part of the deal. Superman being with Wonder Woman or a character similar makes more sense and we see that in stand alone stories, but it doesn't create drama or problems. For the most part it's all more like reality TV, we follow a bunch of characters and witness their day to day lives, like you stated there's no ending to any of these stories, I see this a lot in television and I think it's about money, milking it for all its worth for as long as possible, like the show Cheers from the 80's, I know it's a beloved classic, but what was really the point of that show, just a bunch of people hanging out drinking, even when it ended we get a spin-off of one of the characters and that gave us some change, but that show is no different again as loved and brilliant as it was there was no point even worse is we see the other characters grow and change and end with the main character going off to do it all over again somewhere else and now they bring him back in the lastest crop of remakes/reboots of old shows and he hasn't changed.
Couldn't agree more with everything you said! The problem is when the story being told is no longer about some creative spark from an author, but instead a means to generate ever increasing revenues and milk a diminishing audience.
What a load of bollocks lol. Cops work for decades and never feel the need to kill. Martial artists like Jon Jones would crush street level thugs easily, it's not Batman's fault Arkham and Blackgate are awful incarceration holdings. Batman doesn't judge jury and execute thats Punisher who I regard as a serial killer. The law is there for a reason. Batman morals elevate us all to do better
I don't think they would kill characters like super man and just start a new way of doing comic books, but I do think the industry will slowly crumble, and the new generation that was affected so much by manga will start a new way of writing comics
I think comics bacame that way because of how they started, reading some older comics I see it was more of an episodic cartoon than a continuous story, but then they started doing big sagas and stories with characters that weren't well thought for that, so now we have batman going on a full blown crusade to save the anti dark polyverse, and in the next week he will be chasing condiment man, trough the alleys of gotham
True the power creep in comics is wild. I hope so, I do feel on some level the current model of western comics is unsustainable. So eventually they may be forced to adapt or change their approach.
Manga is what comics should do. Manga has an beginning, middle, and ending to the story.
Even My Hero Academia a superhero manga does what comic books should do have an actual ending to the story.
Buddy comics books have endings they called indie comics if you want comics books series with ending stop reading marvel/DC and instead read image or dark horse
Even taking the stated essentialism about storytelling for granted, there are plenty of manga that are oriented around a set status quo and have no singular definitive story arc, just like comics. Some of them are all time best sellers, like Golgo 13, but just never got big in the West. The tight link between a series and a specific creator is a notable difference though. The answer to the problems with this style of storytelling is this: the catharsis of story progression happens on the level of the individual stories themselves, as opposed to across multiple installments. It's like reading a series of short stories that all happen to have the same characters and basic setup. If you treat the discontinuous series of short stories as if they were existing in a continuity then things are going to feel static, but if you keep in mind the actual intent then it's just a matter of whether or not the short stories are written in a satisfying way or not. A character can absolutely go from point A to point B in 30 pages and it constitute a good character arc, and then be featured in new disconnected stories that don't take it into account, without the first story becoming a bad one. No need to look for a greater connective narrative that just isn't actually there.
There’s another thing you should’ve mentioned is the fact that the stories of marvel and dc characters technically have ended already. Stories like dc’s kingdom come or old man Logan and avengers twilight have the conclusion of these characters stories and the rest we see continue in the main stream is just pointless filler to keep the characters relevant.
It's a fair point - that we actually have stories we could use to give certain characters satisfying endings, but instead of letting them rest they are just endlessly brought back and milked.
I get where you are coming from in this. I may like comic books, but for some reason, I tend to lean towards indie comics from IDW, Image, Dynamite, Boom, etc. Now, I am not saying that I don't like DC or Marvel, but when it is creator-owned content, there could be some progression in some areas. However, I have seen some indie comics where there is a rebooted timeline. So I get your point.
this is the primary reason why manga is killing it right now in comparison to the western comic industry. They constantly keep their stories fresh by coming up with new ideas. Western comics use the same idea and just slap a new coat of paint on it. It gets stale pretty damn quick
To be honest I'm hoping the decline in comic sales will end up revitalising the industry. It really needs a shake up.
While manga differently does a lot of things better they run into similar problems and often times mangas fail to stick the landing with a satisfying ending
@@giovonniiclaytonalso we're the only few issues of manga is certain story elements of your manga is not expanded enough like Naruto for example even though it's a fine manga the manga is not truly fulfilling and the world building has not been expanded enough to be satisfying like for example expanding the relationship between Naruto and Sasuke flesh out the side characters more flesh out the other villages flesh out the other tail beast flesh out the other the kage and so much more that the manga could expand on because otherwise Naruto do we have a thousand issues instead of 700 issues so that way every character feels developed and the world feels complete because to be honest with you I may not read the Naruto manga or watch all of the anime but Naruto just feels undercook because after all the manga industry will pressure the creators to immediately get their manga out even though they have so much brand new ideas about what they can bring to the table for their manga
@giovonniiclayton very true. But honestly, this seems to be more of a writing and production issue that every medium deals with rather than a western superhero multiverse that has essentially bottled up all of their series into an unwinnable corner. And at the very least, if one series fails in manga, you always have plenty more different stories on the way. Not so for western superhero comics.
Some of your points are really correct.
Yes, Superheroes stories are in cycles. Changes are sometimes really stupid and have to be redconned. And yes, one of my favourites Spider-Man is really guilty of that. (The problem of Peter's baby. Spider-Man's deal with Mephisto...)
I think the approach of DC to restart their universes isn't bad to avoid those issues of an expanding timeline.
But to compare the genre of Mangas with Superhero comics and than complain that Superhero comics are less diversified, isn't sensible.
There are different comics in the western world as well.
Fantasy, science fiction, romcoms, coming of age, crime thrillers and so on.
One thing that I don't like is the xy has to be more powerful than yx.
Hulk smashes a planet, Superman lifts a book with inifinte pages, and we are supposed to take that seriously.
Thanks! Yeah that's fair, you're right they are very different. But it was the closest comparable industry I could think of, and I find it interesting how manga took a different direction to Western comics by and large.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Well, I think the point, that those comics often have an ending is absolutely vaild.
I have to admit that there are comics I didn't read, because it was an ongoing series and I wasn't sure if I wanted to commit to it.
Ya, i can tell you right now. imo image comics is the future of the industry. Image comics is what the industry should be like
The guys who published Invincible right? I'd love to see more content come from them. I really feel like DC and Marvel will eventually decline unless they adapt, although they're so large and popular it's hard to imagine when it might happen.
@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt ya they make way more than superhero stories, but i would be DC that collapse first
Somebody has never heard of the word continuity
I appreciate both comics and manga. In addition, I have seen real changes and stakes in DC and Marvel characters especially with the characters who begin as villains and then become antiheroes. In addition, there are some events and arcs that are creative and offer a different perspective. From DC I particularly liked the run of Green Lantern that introduced us to different colors on the spectrum of lanterns and the Death Metal comics. From Marvel Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Secret Wars had fresh ideas. However, I do see both of your arguments as considerable disadvantages. I would also like to add Watchmen as a creative graphic novel with true stakes. The Boys also had some concepts that I appreciated with real consequences.
I agree with all your arguments and that's precisely why I dropped comic books and read only manga nowadays. Besides, I much prefer comics characters adaptations - games, animated series and movies - they are the sole reason I like those characters, not the source material. Watching Sam Raimi's Spider Man, the 90s or 2000s animated series, made me appreciate the character and its values much more than any comic book I tried to read about him. The same can be said about any character for both Marvel and DC. I simply don't hold any comic book as a masterpiece in storytelling or deeply emotional, specially when you compare them to manga - which, most of the well-regarded ones, are way above in meaning, character development, worldbuilding, symbology, philosophy, catharsis and emotion....
Agree, this is why I generally prefer reading the older comics, as while there is still a bit of a reset button, in the 60’s it didn’t feel as bad as your reading some of the first storylines with our heroes, so them getting reset hasn’t been as well established, it also interesting to see how much the original interpretation of characters differ from their modern counterparts.
I remember hearing the reason why the approach of graphic novels differs so much between the east and west is because episodic stories are generally more popular in the west, in the west we had the looney tunes, while in the east they had, idk Dragon Ball.
As someone who reads comics I can say a few things:
While trying to read Dc/Marvel comics sound like a pain, you can always grab a self contained story and have fun with it. :) There are tons of those in the big companies that dont require any previous knowledge and they have a beginning, middle and an end. ;)
Try other publishers. XD There are gazillions stories/characters outside Marvel and Dc. This is a "complain" I read a lot, as if there were no comics outside Marvel and Dc.
Which is a pity since there are really good stories, not only in the US market but in other countries as well.
I could give a few examples if you want. There are even small run stories, says..50 issues recollected in 5 books that have everything you seek and its lacking in Marvel/Dcs mainline runs. ;)
Sure I'd be happy to get some recommendations off you. Some other commentors have shared some really great stories I hadn't read before - always happy to read more!
Characters do grow in comics, sure sometimes large character shifts will be undone for the sake of continuity, but in the individual runs they do actually grow and change dramatically. Growth is only sometimes undone after the run ends. You don't just have to read the main continuity resetting events, because there are hundreds of amazing runs that allows for growth, so it's a bit close minded to just say "what's the point." but there still is much to criticise with the industry, you can have that opinion but those are my thoughts.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's true there can be some temporary growth in individual runs, but if you want to engage in the broader narrative of the universe then you can't escape the problems I mentioned in the video. You can take the stories in isolation and enjoy them, but you still won't have the satisfaction of a true and final ending.
There's definitely changes that stick in comics, but they're selective. Like Magneto being a holocaust survivor wasn't how he was in the beginning, that got added later. Mr Freeze used just be yet another gimmicky villain who made crappy puns based on his theme, but evolved into a more complicated antivillain in the 90s after the animated series retooled him. If a change "clicks" it remains. If it doesn't it spins out and gets retconned or reworked.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt yeah true
The cultural difference was caused by The Comics Code Authority in the US. This psychologist wrote an book called Seduction of the Innocent, arguing that comics were going to corrupt America's youth. At the time we had every genre under the sun and tons of different styles. But a lot of the horror and underground comix stuff from the San Francisco scene were pretty graphic. So in order to prevent comics from being banned, our industry created the Comics Code which made sure that comics had to be kid-friendly. That was essentially an extinction-level event for anything that wasn't superheroes or anthropomorphic animals.
Narratively, I would argue that superheroes are Americas living mythology and as such, they take on the rhythm of an oral storytelling tradition. It's like all the stories I used to hear about Anansi the Spider, he was sort of suspended in time too. I like it because they do change over time, with every generation getting their own customized version to grow up with. Idk, I'm not a big superhero reader either, but I do think it's special.
I really liked this essay! This was only part of the reason I stopped reading DC and Marvel comics. It's not that they're bad. I just felt like I'd grown out of them. I grew up but the comic books didn't. I started when I was around twelve, so by the time I was in my late twenties/early 30s I'd had enough.
It's not just the repetitive storylines either, but (and you didn't mention this part) how almost all the storylines are usually resolved (such as they are) by superheroes battling each other. I got tired of reading about the constant fighting. That got tiresome, but I still watch, and mostly love all the superhero movies, (but the movies, being a wholly different medium, don't have the same problems as the books).
Superhero comics are great when you're at a certain age, or stage of your emotional development, but at some point you graduate to other types of storytelling. In my case I moved on to Manga after that and I still read comic books, I just just read mostly Horror, and one-offs from independents.
Personally it doesn’t bother me too much because it’s allowed me, my father, and my grandfather to all grow up reading a version of Superman that we can connect to. My grandpa read Superman fighting the nazis and standing against the KKK. My father was there when Superman died saving the world from doomsday.
Then I had to put up with the god awful new 52 Superman until we got superman and his son going on adventures and now superman and the super family.
I prefer it because it creates a long tapestry that have different eras to explore and read about.
But I understand people not being into that. My friends who prefer manga like watching the movies and cartoons but will just ask me about the comics because they don’t want to play catch up with decades of continuity. So in those cases I just recommend the stand alone books that don’t need context. My friend loves the authority comic book because it’s a quick 30 issues story with a beginning middle and end.
That's totally fair, and it's nice you have a family lineage like that of you all enjoying the same character through the ages.
I would recommend Kurt Busiek's Astro City series. Among its many strengths it avoids the Floating Timeline. For instance, back when the series started in the mid-90s, we were introduced to Astra Furst, an 8-year-old girl. Astra has grown up and is now a mother of her own children.
Quarrel and Crackerjack, a pair of highly trained Normals, had to deal with the fact that they were aging and slowing down. They ended up retiring. Though not after Crackerjack made a terrible mistake in trying to regain his youth with the aid of a mad scientist.
I'll add this to my growing backlog of recommendations - thanks!
I actually had a discussion with my father who was an old fan of marvel comics. I've watched, read and played video games featuring Spiderman.
And I always found the other mediums outside the comics feel far more satisfying story wise.
Watching the original Spiderman trilogy, we had a beginning middle and end. We didn't need to research events outside the films to understand anything. And that's the issue comics have is you basically need to do homework on a good number of stories to understand them.
I think the simplest solution, at least that i discovered for myself, is sticking to standalones. The better stories and character arcs are those with a planned beginning, middle, and end that are delivered in a complete package.
Yeah I tend to do this now, if I read mainstream comics at all.
1:48 I’ve thought about that before - it's pretty sad how the states constantly find themselves in war, making Stark's origin story something that can easily be updated over time.
True, I think I read somewhere that for more than 90% of its life the USA has been at war. Kind of wild thinking about that.
This is why I love Invincible! While it has a big universe, it has a finite story where characters grow and the status quo never remains the same.
I completely get what you mean and it’s why I don’t really read too many comics but when it’s superheroes I see it because in real life crime doesn’t stop it also continues indefinitely but that can be completely headcanon type stuff
The flaw of static characters in static worlds is that the medium becomes obsessed with itself. I noticed a lot of what is considered the best stories are usually the ones that are or originally were meant to be elseworlds, or past stories where the passage of time was clear and used. It's why I think certain team dynamics and characters work best in the specific time period they were thought of or came from. It's why I consider the best X-men movies for example the ones that tie it to the 20th century, which really fits the aesthetic and tone those stories tends to go for.
It is very hard to drag on a character from a certain period and expect them to perfectly translate into the modern era without drastic updates, and I find simply just handwaving time progression is honestly the greatest sin you can make in storytelling. This would be fine if these were just comic strips. Adventurous little comics that don't take itself too seriously, and the reason the melodramatic way the characters spoke and acted in the past worked so well (and hence why they became iconic in the first place). It's meant to be the fantasy of the time. Now the tone has become homogenized and every story feels the need to take itself too seriously. DC and Marvel is obsessed with trying to make its heroes to mythological icons to justify their static status, like tying them to a larger concept as if their pseudo deities that are tied to the mechanics of the greater multiverse. Forgive my language, but its nothing but meta-textual masturbation that's only appealing to power scalers and people who are convinced these are modern Greek myths or something.
The quickest way to fix this if they truly do not want the characters to naturally progress and have legacy characters take over entirely for new eras is to just do elseworlds stories where continuality doesn't matter and creators can play with the characters as much as they want without worrying about the next guy coming in. This connected universe stuff is just muddying everything, rarely make too much sense chronologically, and any crossover events usually end up just interrupting far better stories. It's a giant reset button that seems to degrade the quality of the world more and more. It's starting to feel like Crisis on Infinite Earths and its legacy has left a enormous bruise on the industry as a whole that is steadily growing worse and more infected with each passing decade. Even most response videos are just either saying how they miss the good old days or having hope that a new creator's impact will actually stick around if a modern story is good or refreshing enough. There's an uncomfortable level of "you'll get used to it" that permeates both fandoms, and it just becomes depressing the older I get and try to keep up with it all.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and this video. I'm thinking maybe I've just outgrown the way this medium has done its stories where I wouldn't care too much when I was younger, and I don't have the same level of attachment as those who stuck to it like glue, or have nostalgia to let it carry me too further beyond cursory glances. It's definitely something I'll be thinking on.
Really good points - and I especially think your one about the tone and stories becoming homogenised is really important for us to recognise and try to diversify away from.
A connected universe, in my opinion, works best with a smaller cast of characters. When you have 100s or 1000s of characters, all with incredible abilities and stories, all vying for space in the same world, it becomes extremely difficult to balance them and explain why meaningful change isn't happening.
I think the lack of progression is more of a modern concept that continues to be frustrating. Characters like Spider-Man had progression before One More Day. Spider-Man graduated highschool and university, met new people in university, got married, planning on having children, becoming an Avenger, had a teaching job, and went from a more spiteful teenager learning the ropes in the 60s to a more heroic caring character who is capable. Same with Batman who started out as cold and angry in the beginning to a father of many children and learning to be a proper protector of Gotham. Also some goals might not ever be achievable or would take a long time to take shape. X-men for example there is still discrimination and prejudice in our world as we speak, so for them just to end it in a decade or in universe a year is completely nonsensical. Also Gotham is a big city; ending crime there would take decades or may never happen at all. Punisher can't end crime by pointing a gun at a criminal and shooting, like ending world problems by throwing money at it. Should Batman kill the Joker; probably but who is to say someone else might take his place and continue his legacy. I don't see comics as a period of a character's life but a day to day account of their life. For ending my journey with a certain character I just say pick a point in the story, usually after a run and jump off. I was satisfied with Nick Spencer ending of Spider-Man so I jumped off. I also think just comparing the big two to all of Manga is just not fair as there is lots of comics that aren't superhero by western creators. Just because they are the most predominant we cant exclude the other books.
It's a fair point, but setting aside progress being reset (like with Spiderman), even if they can't "fix" their problems it's frustrating to see zero progress being made. Like with Batman, I get what you're saying but Batman doesn't seem to be making any difference whatsoever.
I like your approach of viewing it as a day to day account where you can jump out at a natural point.