Much credit to the actor who plays Toda Buntaro. His character is a jerk in so many ways, but I truly feel for him. Not only does he get epically rejected by his wife (who he truly loves), he had to act as his father's second all within a day or so.
Dont feel too bad.. in the book Buntaro was said to have killed his own mother because he believed she cheated on her husband. The actor playing Buntaro is fantastic tho.. as is the entire production.
@@carlart74 I admit I've never read the book or watched the original mini-series so I can only go by the show. After reading what he did to his mom, I take back my momentary tender feeling for his wife's epic rejection 😜 Thank you for setting me straight!
That anger face Toranaga displayed after Hiromatsu's seppuku is something I'd liked to believed is for his enemies in Osaka. Damn, this show is so good!
yes, Hiromatsu knew and is part of the plan. Hiromatsu essentially raised Toranaga so he knows the lord inside out, and the lord would not just accept defeat like this. for context, the art of war/romance of the three kingdoms, 36 stratagems were published for decades during the 1600s, and all these were must read for the war lords in the japan waring era. similar story happened in romance of three kingdoms and wt Hiromatsu and Toranaga did here was one of the strategy in the 36 Stratagems, under chapter 6 defeat stratagems. (they have little chance because of the earthquake and failed alliance with his half brother) the strategy is to inflict injury on yourself to gain the enemy's trust. here, we can see a weakened and sick Toranaga, accepting defeat and lost all motivation to fight after his son's death and for the sake of japan. meanwhile, his clan generals refused to go down with the lord, because they would rather die on the battlefield than to die by surrendering (which makes a lot of sense, its dying either way, why surrender?), so, by showing that Toranaga's cloest friend and general protesting surrender by seppuku, the lord has made up his mind, and no one can change it, despite the fact that his generals all want to fight. Osaka would receive news of a defeated, sick and depressed Toranaga. this will lower their guard, and make them believe victory has been achieved. earlier, Ochiba was not convinced of Toranaga's defeat even after his son's death, and said sth like he is not defeated until his head is presented, so she could easily convinced or order Ishido to be extreme careful about handling Toranaga, but this event would certainly lower their guard, and allow whatever Toranaga's plan to have a higher chance of success with bigger surprise factor. a lot of people would think that this is a waste for Hiromatsu, but the old man knows what real deception and cost of victory is. notice that he told Fuji not to look to die before, told his son not to follow him to death but to continue to serve the lord, and told all the generals in the room that this is "between him and toranaga" only. this ensure that none other important generals will committee seppuku so they can fight the war later, but also convince the enemy that even Toranaga's cloest friend and general "failed" to drag him out of defeat and depression, again lowering their guard. imagine Hiromatsu protest the lord's decision to surrender by demanding everyone in the room to commit seppuku 1 by 1 with him? he didn't, because this is just a show and toranaga doesnt need to be convinced, it is osaka who needs to be convinced. if you are still not convinced, you can rewatch ep 3 when toranaga escape from osaka castle, no one knew about the swap, except Hiromatsu, the old man is always part of the plan.
Totally agree. Also, please note in episode 7, Saeki knew about Toranaga shitting in his pants because that’s the kind of story family members know from hearing from their family members, but Hiromatsu knowing it took Toranaga 9 thrusts before he could cut off Mizoguchi’s head proves one thing: Hiromatsu has been with Toranaga from the very start, and knows Toranaga more than anyone else, through and through, more than Toranaga’s family members.
There is a famous Japanese proverb that says, ``To deceive your enemy, first deceive your friends.'' Toranaga seems to be doing that perfectly. The proverb itself originates from the Chinese military technique of Mr. Sun, but it is widely known in Japan.
@@markcruz359 This is the teaching of Mr. Sun of China. It was introduced to Japan as a military technique over 1000 years ago. Now it's like a proverb and everyone knows it.
Mariko shutting down Toda's suggestion of dying together is absolutely epic. She has forever wanted to take her life but on her terms, never on his. Her denial was greater than any loss of honor he would ever face. Toranaga has forever thought steps ahead of what anyone has imagined he was planning. Yes he just lost his son but he knew immediately that he had all that time to plan his next moves. His planning for the location of the church was outstanding. Enjoy the neighborhood!
youtube.com/@HelloThere.GeneralKenobi Seeing Gin weeping as she envisioned the fulfillment of her dream for the district was beautiful - and then the camera shifted and I was on the floor laughing as I realised what Toranaga had done 🤣
In Japan at the time, there was a custom called ``諌死'' in which a vassal would die to warn a lord if he failed. This led Osaka to believe that Toranaga was serious about surrendering, and that he was willing to do so even if his vassals died. Also, the ``person who cannot die'' refers to Toranaga. Historically, Toranaga was a feudal lord, but since he was an only child, he always made many sacrifices to survive the country. That's how they made peace.
Hiromatsu understood Toranaga's intentions just by exchanging glances. Therefore, he loudly announced to his other vassals, ``If you surrender, you will die in vain.'' Their performance was possible because of their bond. Their life-threatening friendship was the only way to defeat Osaka.
old man Hiromatsu was based on historical figure "Torii Mototada". He served Tokugawa (Toranaga) since his lord was still a kid. When Tokugawa was running from Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido), Mototada volunter to be the rear guard, Even though he can run, In an act of loyalty to his lord Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga) Mototada chose to remain behind, honoring his friend & lord's request, and defend fushimi castle, which block the way to edo (His Lord's base). He defend it with only 1800 men against Ishida's (Ishido) 40.000. Their held for 12 days, killing thousands of enemies, until only 10 men remaining, including Mototada and then they do ritual suicide / seppuku. This sacrifice buyed time for Tokugawa to raise 90.000 troops and raise his army's morales to face Ishida (Ishido) at Sekigahara. Mototada's suicide at the fall of Fushimi Castle is one of the most celebrated acts of seppuku in Japanese history. In honor & battle, he is perhaps the greatest samurai. Mototada last words to his lord before they parted ways sadly knowing that they would never see each other again : "....I am resolved to make a stand within the castle and to die a quick death. It would not take much trouble to break through a part of their numbers and escape, no matter how many tens of thousands of horsemen approached for the attack or by how many columns we were surrounded. But that is not the true meaning of being a warrior, and it would be difficult to account as loyalty. Rather, I will stand off the forces of the entire country here, and ... die a resplendent death."
I think Hiromatsu was in on it. He starts planting seeds earlier in the episode telling the other leaders "Toranaga has something else planned." This builds the perspective that Hiro thinks he can change Toranaga's mind about surrendering. So that when we get to the signing scene, it makes sense that Hiromatsu would be "surprised" that Toranaga is really giving up. He willingly gave his life so that Ishido, Yabashuge, Omi, all of them really believe that Toranaga is going to surrender and thus take action that Toranaga secretly wants to happen
Hiromatsu was not on it. But before he died, he knew Toranaga's true plan because of the winking, or the staredown, a secret convo between best friends. You could see it the way Hiro's eyes changed from angry to calm after Toranaga's eyelid movement. At that point Hiro knew he had to complete it, so that the others will be convinced Toranaga's surrendering. That shows how Cunning Toranaga is. Willing to kill his bestfriend for the sake of his plan.
@@krishnaalmeda3125 THIS, is the episode when I've discovered the FX podcast here on youtube, because I needed this answer and it goes just a half step even deeper, Toranaga expected those other protesting generals to go that far and be the convincing element, Hiromatsu inserted himself in the situation and took their place before they could.
17:28 Literal translation of Japanese"Those who cannot die" is also what Toranaga himself is about. Even though he must sacrifice many of his family, comrades, and friends and live in hell, he must build a strong and peaceful world to repay those who sacrificed themselves. As a result, Tokugawa Ieyasu, who was Toranaga's model, established a regime that lasted for about 260 years from 1603 until its collapse in 1868.
I wouldn't say that Hiromatsu was in on it, he just knew his friend so well that he was able to figure out what the plan was and what his part in it could be to push it over the edge for his Lord.
Lady Ochiba's fear is losing her son. She wants him to succeed his father. She doesn't trust that either Ishido or Toronaga will allow him to live to do so.
A Japanese tea ceremony (chanoyu) is an ancient event ingrained into Japanese culture and cherished by many. The people of Japan have perfected and choreographed every detail of the tea ceremony - even down to the placement of mats in a tea room! Although rooted in simplicity and intention, the different rituals taught by each school make chanoyu layered with complexity and richness that can take a lifetime to appreciate - but that is the draw! Hosting a tea ceremony requires years of dedicated study and training at specific tea schools. San-Senke is dedicated to teaching the wabi-cha manner of tea ceremony derived from descendants of Sen no Rikyū. Complexity. Attention to detail. Study and practice. Attaining perfection in all things.
Mariko never wanted to be married. She never loved him ever. Shes always looked down on him for not being worthy. This has nothing to do with what happened when he was drunk. That was a one time thing. People are assuming he always beat her but i dont think he did. He has always tried to love her but she never gave the same affections back.
@@suyarin_cho a lot of viewers seem to misunderstand him thinking he's an abuser. But he really isnt. He loves her so much that she commanded her to live and forbids her to off herself. She probably asked to die again that night he was drunk.
That's right! Mari didn't want to marry Buntaro because his family was of a lower status than Mariko's. That's why Mariko looks down on Buntaro. Tadaoki Hosokawa who was the model for Buntaro, loved his wife so much. Buntaro loved his wife. That's why she didn't want him to die. Do you want to kill someone you love? Buntaro was clumsy and couldn't express his love well, but he had never been abuse her . Mariko was attracted to anjin, a Westerner who expressed his feelings openly. When Buntaro returned from a tough battle, they became good friends. How angry he was! I think that's why he was irritated and resorted to violence. Mariko has too much self-pity. She has a strong desire for death and is strong-willed and cold, I think. Would Mariko have said something kind to Buntaro after what happened to her husband's father? I think no. we have more two stories. Let's keep an eye on where it goes、
@@mamorintan Within just 10episodes, many details between Mariko and Buntaro had to be omitted. so when this series started, only his clumsy and nasty aspects were focused. It's a pity.🥲
@@rjelruiz5867 Sorry mate, but Tywin would _wish_ he was as cunning as Toranaga. Letting his best friend die "for the views and likes" of the spies who were undoubtedly there? And Tywin _did_ die in the toilet iirc. So yeah nah yeah, Tywin's just a gifted, skilled amateur compared to Toranaga.
actually its interesting if we can view another perspective, like that dude Ishido. That guy was not really a bad guy, he was only protecting the heir against toranaga's massive influence (in reality, toranaga was the strongest regent). Ishido was loyal to the taiko, he felt toranaga will eventually betray the heir, yet Ishido at the same time made many enemies because his attitude and stance as loyal and anti-corrupt bureaucrat. maybe in the next seasons, we will see the real face of toranaga (I have not read the book so I don't know if we will ever get to that)
I think Hiromatsu guessed Tironaga's plan. I feel like they know each other so well, Hiromatsu figured it out and made a play to solidify his plan. I don't think Tironaga ever planned on sacrificing Hiromatsu, but he understood what Hiromatsu was doing when he started his act. You can see the tears in his eyes. That's also why Hiromatsu told Buntaro not to give up on Tironaga even if it looks like he gave up.
He use the death of his own son and a life of his life long friend to built a stepping stones to victory. that is cold as fuck but also require the strongest heart.
the fact that he had to keep that mask up in front of his retainers, and we can see it was starting to crack a bit in that close-up after the head rolled to his feet, just shows the depth of their friendship; and it also backed him into full commitment. if he was having even a 0.1% of doubt, Hiromatsu removed it. He now has to find the way, and make the impossible possible.
Toranaga gave a church site next to the brothel area. This means not allowing the construction of a church from the beginning. Hiramatsu's seppuku is not begging for his life, but a plea in exchange for his life. Loyalty refers to vassals like Hiramatsu. The emotions of this episode are also felt by Japanese people. The content was quite risqué, difficult to understand, deep, and interesting.
If Hiromatsu had not raised his voice in that scene, all of Toranaga's servants who opposed him would have had to commit seppuku. Hiromatsu assumed this responsibility himself and believed in Toranaga's true intentions. His death was not in vain.
21:39 There were hints in this episode that showed that Hiromatsu knew about Lord Toranaga's true intentions. 1. Hiromatsu noticed that Lord Toranaga sent the priest away to tell others about what he had seen here, that Lord Toranaga is accepting defeat and surrendering. By sending the priest away, Hiromatsu read this as Lord Toranaga is getting ready to fight. 2. Hiromatsu told his son Buntaro, who wanted to die with him, to live on to serve Lord Toranaga, even if their lord seemed to be giving up.
I will die on this hill and I know I would get a lot of flak for this given that I have a male portrait: I love that Mariko declined Buntaro's offer for a mutual suicide in the tea house scene. How she went about it and her choice of words, not so much. lets break it down. 1. From the flashback on episode 6, we can glimpse that Buntaro had always longed for Mariko. Mariko, on the other hand never really liked him, or even looked down on the Toda clan back then (confirmed by her saying to Ruri-hime that the Toda clan is a worthless alliance and that his father is casting her aside; and later to Toranaga that his father should have married him better) 2. We learn from the Toranaga couple's councelor arc that Buntaro did try ti aooease her but her icy demeanor never melted. And that he had to bear double insult of Sparing the life of a traitor's daughter; who later converted to Catholicism. double whammy right there. 3. then Toranaga revealed that, in fact, distancing her from the fight and marrying her off to someone who ensured she lives was part of her father's plan... BUT, come episode 7, she requests Toranaga to allow her to end her life. we are coming from all that build up before the tea-house scene. so you can see a great deal of inconsistency in her character. it's either that or she is being consciously spiteful and saying the most hateful and vile thing that she knows will break his husband at this point. AND IT MAKES NO SENSE UNLESS THE PLAN WAS TO MAKE MARIKO SO DISLIKEABLE. and then to go around later and tell blackthorn that "when loyalty starts it has no end otherwise it is not loyalty", I call hypocrite. Just the previous episode, you asked for death from Toranaga who revealed to you your own father's grand design (a betrayal of your duty to your father and then to your Lord), then a scene before you rejected joining your husband in a seppuku of protest (a betrayal of your marriage); you really are in no position to berate and/or remind Blackthorne about the importance of loyalty. Now, let me throw an olive branch and suggest how to better handle the scene (I am no writer so this is rudimentary but would make more narrative sense and progress Mariko's arc in a more positive way). "When we were a younger couple I resented you for the wrong reasons (this works as a good opening statement as it is an admission also of her misreading the great plans his father for her); and I know i have caused you great suffering by repeatedly asking you to let me die all this years (this shows accountability); BUT I have always respected Buntaro, the great warrior. What you are saying now dishonour's your father who have said earlier that he Believes Toranaga will fight. It dishonours our Lord whom you also doubt. And you dishonour yourself. I would sooner live a thousand years than die in this manner which you suggest" Again, I am no writer and this is just a rudimentary thing, but I think this would have rounded her character more and would connect with her entire arc from the beginning (where we have been told that she did indeed want to die for she thought that was her duty then) to the present with every new information revealed to her giving her that change in perspective. I especially hate the fact that she did the right thing by rejecting his offer for death, and they use that as an excuse to give Mariko the right to act so vile, petty, and cruel. And before anyone types the Usual Butthurt crap: NO, that does not mean that Buntaro's previous actions were excusable. Of course it is wrong for her to lay hands on her wife. And if he can show such effort in something as delicate and meticulous as the tea ceremony, he should have tried to communicate better with her wife instead of being this clumsy around her as we saw on screen. BUT. Nonetheless. It does not justify what she did to him here.
Are we to assume there is a spy in Toranaga’s ranks?? Is that who this sacrificial demonstration is meant to convince? I don’t understand why Toranaga states it was meant to sway Yabushige to turn on him, when at the end of the episode, he has Mariko inform Yabushige of his plans anyway!!! If he fills Yabushige in on the secret plan, then why go thru the ruse in the first place? For a spy ?? And if it’s for a spy, then why state to Mariko it’s for Yabushige? lol. Just confused on that part
It feels more and more like Mariko's part of Toranaga's plan involves her sacrificing herself in some way that assures his success, and it likely involves Ochiba. One of her last acts will be to convince Blackthorne to turn back and rejoin Toranaga. In fact, I'm not sure her involvement with John hasn't part of Toranaga's strategy, whether she knows it or not. This whole show has me guessing and second-guessing the truth behind what I see the characters doing.
personally, Toranaga's bestfriend's death was so hurtful because you can see both sides. His bestfriend had some faith in Toranaga that he has plans up to the signing of surrender,He just didn't see that that signing is just a ruse. Toranaga couldn't tell his bestfriend even if he wanted to because he had to sell that he really is surrendering and just hoping that his bestfriend could see beyond what's happening😞
Agreed. And it reminded me of when, in an earlier episode where Hiromatsu was questioning Toranaga's need for Blackthorne while facing imminent impeachment/death, and Mariko explained that he was using John to sow division amongst the Christian lords and Ishido, that Toranaga told his friend that he could do with having her talent for intuition. Another wonderful example of the quality of this show's writing. Hiromatsu's death brought tears to my eyes.
Im under the impression he definitely knew beforehand. He was already seeding the plans at the beginning of the episode to Yabu. Then Tora says that to Mariko, dudes playing chess and Hiro his most loyal friend took one for the team
To paraphrase Sun Tzu: when you are weak, you must appear to be strong and when you are strong, you must appear weak. Toranaga has been working real hard this episode to appear weak 🤔🤫
Hiromatsu had to commit seppuku, because he miscalculated Toranaga. He was so convinced that before even the meeting started, he told the other Lords that Toranaga will fight, and just when Yabushige was about to sign his name and after Toranaga uttered the word "surrender", Hiromatsu was surprised of his Lord's decision. He did his best to sway Toranaga, but since he assumed wrong he had to save face by committing seppuku. It was so subtle you wouldn't even notice it because it was so quick.
Phenomenal seppuku scene, second best episode so far. I saw Previewed's thumbnail also. Channel See 1 had a funny one as well, a pic of his son with "Dumbest Character" over his head. lol. 4/9/24
Something to chew on to pass the time, choose one: 1. Hiromatsu and Toranaga talked and planned out the theatrics jointly 2. They came to an understanding of the part each of them had to play in the heat of the moment.
Yeah... I think I felt the same over the Buntaro/Mariko scene....heavily complex...a beautiful scene....that I'm not sure that I understand...but damn, dude had a harsh day! What an utterly superb series....there's been some phenominal TV over the last decade or so...but this is a masterpiece. His father's suicide....damn, that scene made THE RED WEDDING look like a minor accident at a sundy picnic, clumsily written by a teenage boy. Powerful, powerful stuff.....There was something of "We can use suspense, tension building and great acting to show the utter horror of what's happening here, without having to actually show you....but hell, we're still going to show you!!!"....."You gotta understand the rules before you try to break them" These writers/directors understand the rules and they went beyond....masterful . And that scene with Mariko and Buntaro....so interesting in that it was "beautiful"...but yet "beautiful" is totally the wrong word to describe what was actually going on. I don't quite remember where Shakespere got his source material for Romeo & Juliet....but I'd be hella interested to see what he's write if he saw this!
Nope. You're not wrong. Toranaga always 10 steps ahead. What an amazing strategist. I feel like he basically sacrificed a rook to have his plan follow through. It's heartbreaking that Hiromatsu was willing to go along with it to save everyone. John and Yabushige are just the pawns. So predictable 😆
comments from tokyo. episode8 is stunning. however, I thought Hiromatsu seppuku was too abrupt and would be difficult to accept and indigestible for those who do not have an better understanding of the cultural background of japanese feudal era. pls remeber stories I am relieved to hear that your comment. accept and indigestible for those who do not have an better understanding of the cultural background of japanese feudal era. pls remeber stories I am relieved to hear that your comment. dialogue throughout whole episode inspired true events of many warlord.
Why does everyone pronounce Toranaga "Tora Naga" instead of "toh Ragana"? Don't they actually *_LISTEN_* to the way the Japanese actors pronounce it? Maye they're too busy reading the subtitles and can't multitask. I don't know.
When you're playing chess and now you're at that point where you have to sacrifice your pieces
oh,good expression!
Much credit to the actor who plays Toda Buntaro. His character is a jerk in so many ways, but I truly feel for him. Not only does he get epically rejected by his wife (who he truly loves), he had to act as his father's second all within a day or so.
I agree! Only this show could make me feel bad for a wife beater 😂🤣
Dont feel too bad.. in the book Buntaro was said to have killed his own mother because he believed she cheated on her husband. The actor playing Buntaro is fantastic tho.. as is the entire production.
@@carlart74 I admit I've never read the book or watched the original mini-series so I can only go by the show. After reading what he did to his mom, I take back my momentary tender feeling for his wife's epic rejection 😜 Thank you for setting me straight!
He has a very stoic personality and may be a little different from a clumsy guy.
No man who truly loves his wife would beat her.
That anger face Toranaga displayed after Hiromatsu's seppuku is something I'd liked to believed is for his enemies in Osaka. Damn, this show is so good!
Damn. The look on Hiroyuki Sanada's face. No words were needed.
yes, Hiromatsu knew and is part of the plan. Hiromatsu essentially raised Toranaga so he knows the lord inside out, and the lord would not just accept defeat like this.
for context, the art of war/romance of the three kingdoms, 36 stratagems were published for decades during the 1600s, and all these were must read for the war lords in the japan waring era. similar story happened in romance of three kingdoms and wt Hiromatsu and Toranaga did here was one of the strategy in the 36 Stratagems, under chapter 6 defeat stratagems. (they have little chance because of the earthquake and failed alliance with his half brother)
the strategy is to inflict injury on yourself to gain the enemy's trust. here, we can see a weakened and sick Toranaga, accepting defeat and lost all motivation to fight after his son's death and for the sake of japan. meanwhile, his clan generals refused to go down with the lord, because they would rather die on the battlefield than to die by surrendering (which makes a lot of sense, its dying either way, why surrender?), so, by showing that Toranaga's cloest friend and general protesting surrender by seppuku, the lord has made up his mind, and no one can change it, despite the fact that his generals all want to fight. Osaka would receive news of a defeated, sick and depressed Toranaga. this will lower their guard, and make them believe victory has been achieved. earlier, Ochiba was not convinced of Toranaga's defeat even after his son's death, and said sth like he is not defeated until his head is presented, so she could easily convinced or order Ishido to be extreme careful about handling Toranaga, but this event would certainly lower their guard, and allow whatever Toranaga's plan to have a higher chance of success with bigger surprise factor.
a lot of people would think that this is a waste for Hiromatsu, but the old man knows what real deception and cost of victory is. notice that he told Fuji not to look to die before, told his son not to follow him to death but to continue to serve the lord, and told all the generals in the room that this is "between him and toranaga" only. this ensure that none other important generals will committee seppuku so they can fight the war later, but also convince the enemy that even Toranaga's cloest friend and general "failed" to drag him out of defeat and depression, again lowering their guard. imagine Hiromatsu protest the lord's decision to surrender by demanding everyone in the room to commit seppuku 1 by 1 with him? he didn't, because this is just a show and toranaga doesnt need to be convinced, it is osaka who needs to be convinced.
if you are still not convinced, you can rewatch ep 3 when toranaga escape from osaka castle, no one knew about the swap, except Hiromatsu, the old man is always part of the plan.
Except in Romance of the Three Kingdoms they only had to give Huang Gai a beating. Maybe they should have considered that option instead...
@@MNGN101 It would not have the same effect. Hiromatsu had to do what he did so any spies would believe what they saw.
Totally agree.
Also, please note in episode 7, Saeki knew about Toranaga shitting in his pants because that’s the kind of story family members know from hearing from their family members, but Hiromatsu knowing it took Toranaga 9 thrusts before he could cut off Mizoguchi’s head proves one thing: Hiromatsu has been with Toranaga from the very start, and knows Toranaga more than anyone else, through and through, more than Toranaga’s family members.
The scene between Hiromatsu and Toronaga is one of the best scenes of the entire show
the tears in Toranaga's eyes... masterful
THE best.
@@defnotatrollH’s too
There is a famous Japanese proverb that says, ``To deceive your enemy, first deceive your friends.'' Toranaga seems to be doing that perfectly. The proverb itself originates from the Chinese military technique of Mr. Sun, but it is widely known in Japan.
So is it a japanese proverb or a chinese proverb?
@@markcruz359 This is the teaching of Mr. Sun of China. It was introduced to Japan as a military technique over 1000 years ago. Now it's like a proverb and everyone knows it.
Sums up this book/series perfectly. Well done.
Mariko shutting down Toda's suggestion of dying together is absolutely epic. She has forever wanted to take her life but on her terms, never on his. Her denial was greater than any loss of honor he would ever face.
Toranaga has forever thought steps ahead of what anyone has imagined he was planning.
Yes he just lost his son but he knew immediately that he had all that time to plan his next moves.
His planning for the location of the church was outstanding. Enjoy the neighborhood!
youtube.com/@HelloThere.GeneralKenobi Seeing Gin weeping as she envisioned the fulfillment of her dream for the district was beautiful - and then the camera shifted and I was on the floor laughing as I realised what Toranaga had done 🤣
This show is a work of art. It will be a cherished bluray in my collection.
In Japan at the time, there was a custom called ``諌死'' in which a vassal would die to warn a lord if he failed. This led Osaka to believe that Toranaga was serious about surrendering, and that he was willing to do so even if his vassals died. Also, the ``person who cannot die'' refers to Toranaga. Historically, Toranaga was a feudal lord, but since he was an only child, he always made many sacrifices to survive the country. That's how they made peace.
Hiromatsu understood Toranaga's intentions just by exchanging glances. Therefore, he loudly announced to his other vassals, ``If you surrender, you will die in vain.'' Their performance was possible because of their bond. Their life-threatening friendship was the only way to defeat Osaka.
old man Hiromatsu was based on historical figure "Torii Mototada". He served Tokugawa (Toranaga) since his lord was still a kid. When Tokugawa was running from Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido), Mototada volunter to be the rear guard, Even though he can run, In an act of loyalty to his lord Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga) Mototada chose to remain behind, honoring his friend & lord's request, and defend fushimi castle, which block the way to edo (His Lord's base).
He defend it with only 1800 men against Ishida's (Ishido) 40.000. Their held for 12 days, killing thousands of enemies, until only 10 men remaining, including Mototada and then they do ritual suicide / seppuku. This sacrifice buyed time for Tokugawa to raise 90.000 troops and raise his army's morales to face Ishida (Ishido) at Sekigahara.
Mototada's suicide at the fall of Fushimi Castle is one of the most celebrated acts of seppuku in Japanese history. In honor & battle, he is perhaps the greatest samurai.
Mototada last words to his lord before they parted ways sadly knowing that they would never see each other again :
"....I am resolved to make a stand within the castle and to die a quick death. It would not take much trouble to break through a part of their numbers and escape, no matter how many tens of thousands of horsemen approached for the attack or by how many columns we were surrounded. But that is not the true meaning of being a warrior, and it would be difficult to account as loyalty. Rather, I will stand off the forces of the entire country here, and ... die a resplendent death."
I think Hiromatsu was in on it. He starts planting seeds earlier in the episode telling the other leaders "Toranaga has something else planned." This builds the perspective that Hiro thinks he can change Toranaga's mind about surrendering. So that when we get to the signing scene, it makes sense that Hiromatsu would be "surprised" that Toranaga is really giving up. He willingly gave his life so that Ishido, Yabashuge, Omi, all of them really believe that Toranaga is going to surrender and thus take action that Toranaga secretly wants to happen
Hiromatsu was not on it. But before he died, he knew Toranaga's true plan because of the winking, or the staredown, a secret convo between best friends. You could see it the way Hiro's eyes changed from angry to calm after Toranaga's eyelid movement. At that point Hiro knew he had to complete it, so that the others will be convinced Toranaga's surrendering.
That shows how Cunning Toranaga is. Willing to kill his bestfriend for the sake of his plan.
@@krishnaalmeda3125 THIS, is the episode when I've discovered the FX podcast here on youtube, because I needed this answer and it goes just a half step even deeper, Toranaga expected those other protesting generals to go that far and be the convincing element, Hiromatsu inserted himself in the situation and took their place before they could.
17:28
Literal translation of Japanese"Those who cannot die" is also what Toranaga himself is about. Even though he must sacrifice many of his family, comrades, and friends and live in hell, he must build a strong and peaceful world to repay those who sacrificed themselves.
As a result, Tokugawa Ieyasu, who was Toranaga's model, established a regime that lasted for about 260 years from 1603 until its collapse in 1868.
great insight
yes! great insight!
Man this episode is a roller coaster of emotions❤
The way he gathered Buntaro ALL the way together. A truly full-circle moment. The writing on this show is impeccable.
I wouldn't say that Hiromatsu was in on it, he just knew his friend so well that he was able to figure out what the plan was and what his part in it could be to push it over the edge for his Lord.
Lady Ochiba's fear is losing her son. She wants him to succeed his father. She doesn't trust that either Ishido or Toronaga will allow him to live to do so.
A Japanese tea ceremony (chanoyu) is an ancient event ingrained into Japanese culture and cherished by many. The people of Japan have perfected and choreographed every detail of the tea ceremony - even down to the placement of mats in a tea room!
Although rooted in simplicity and intention, the different rituals taught by each school make chanoyu layered with complexity and richness that can take a lifetime to appreciate - but that is the draw!
Hosting a tea ceremony requires years of dedicated study and training at specific tea schools. San-Senke is dedicated to teaching the wabi-cha manner of tea ceremony derived from descendants of Sen no Rikyū.
Complexity. Attention to detail. Study and practice. Attaining perfection in all things.
Mariko never wanted to be married. She never loved him ever. Shes always looked down on him for not being worthy.
This has nothing to do with what happened when he was drunk. That was a one time thing. People are assuming he always beat her but i dont think he did. He has always tried to love her but she never gave the same affections back.
If I remember right, when Mariko was told to marry him, she even said Toda family is worthless. She never loved him who is lower than her.
@@suyarin_cho a lot of viewers seem to misunderstand him thinking he's an abuser. But he really isnt. He loves her so much that she commanded her to live and forbids her to off herself. She probably asked to die again that night he was drunk.
@@markcruz359
彼が本当にMarikoを愛していたらブラックソーンの前で彼女の父親の話をさせなかったはず
That's right! Mari didn't want to marry Buntaro because his family was of a lower status than Mariko's. That's why Mariko looks down on Buntaro.
Tadaoki Hosokawa who was the model for Buntaro, loved his wife so much. Buntaro loved his wife. That's why she didn't want him to die. Do you want to kill someone you love? Buntaro was clumsy and couldn't express his love well, but he had never been abuse her .
Mariko was attracted to anjin, a Westerner who expressed his feelings openly. When Buntaro returned from a tough battle, they became good friends. How angry he was!
I think that's why he was irritated and resorted to violence. Mariko has too much self-pity. She has a strong desire for death and is strong-willed and cold, I think. Would Mariko have said something kind to Buntaro after what happened to her husband's father? I think no.
we have more two stories. Let's keep an eye on where it goes、
@@mamorintan Within just 10episodes, many details between Mariko and Buntaro had to be omitted. so when this series started, only his clumsy and nasty aspects were focused. It's a pity.🥲
Yabushige then: "I refuse your offer. I can't betray Toranaga."
Yabushige now: "OK, about your offer..."
😂😂😂
The actor of Hiromatsu stole the scene anytime he was on screen
What Mariko said to Buntaro is maybe the most brutal thing I’ve ever heard one person say to another. She’s so fking METAL
for me it wasn't new; my mom always tells that to my dad whenever they fight
Lmao 😂@@shadi6484
最後まで見届けられよ。きっと。。。
This show is so intense and wild. The depths they show how far willing people are willing to go. I am so curious about Mariko too.
So many viewers were convinced Toranaga was some kind of Ned Stark when he's actually closer to Tywin Lannister. Bahaha.
Not me, tho. From the first episode, I knew Toranaga was more Tywin Lannister than Ned Stark. Haha.
He’s nowhere near being a Ned Stark. Ned is a classic boyscout.
@@rjelruiz5867 Sorry mate, but Tywin would _wish_ he was as cunning as Toranaga. Letting his best friend die "for the views and likes" of the spies who were undoubtedly there?
And Tywin _did_ die in the toilet iirc. So yeah nah yeah, Tywin's just a gifted, skilled amateur compared to Toranaga.
actually its interesting if we can view another perspective, like that dude Ishido. That guy was not really a bad guy, he was only protecting the heir against toranaga's massive influence (in reality, toranaga was the strongest regent). Ishido was loyal to the taiko, he felt toranaga will eventually betray the heir, yet Ishido at the same time made many enemies because his attitude and stance as loyal and anti-corrupt bureaucrat.
maybe in the next seasons, we will see the real face of toranaga (I have not read the book so I don't know if we will ever get to that)
@@julian-pthere’s no second season, the showrunners confirmed. The story ends after ep 10, it’s a limited series
This show deserves an Emmy so many great performances
I think Hiromatsu guessed Tironaga's plan. I feel like they know each other so well, Hiromatsu figured it out and made a play to solidify his plan. I don't think Tironaga ever planned on sacrificing Hiromatsu, but he understood what Hiromatsu was doing when he started his act. You can see the tears in his eyes. That's also why Hiromatsu told Buntaro not to give up on Tironaga even if it looks like he gave up.
He use the death of his own son and a life of his life long friend to built a stepping stones to victory. that is cold as fuck but also require the strongest heart.
the fact that he had to keep that mask up in front of his retainers, and we can see it was starting to crack a bit in that close-up after the head rolled to his feet, just shows the depth of their friendship; and it also backed him into full commitment. if he was having even a 0.1% of doubt, Hiromatsu removed it. He now has to find the way, and make the impossible possible.
Mariko’s husband loves her in a sick way.
But he's so toxic that Mariko couldn't stand it anymore.
I was highly upset with that death. Dude was a true gangsta and deserved to go out on the battlefield
Toranaga gave a church site next to the brothel area.
This means not allowing the construction of a church from the beginning.
Hiramatsu's seppuku is not begging for his life, but a plea in exchange for his life.
Loyalty refers to vassals like Hiramatsu.
The emotions of this episode are also felt by Japanese people.
The content was quite risqué, difficult to understand, deep, and interesting.
This is the best practice. If you don't deceive your allies, you can't deceive your enemies. A little sacrifice will save everyone.
F this show😭 why is it so damn good!? I just care about basically every character in it... RIP old man
really enjoyed Omi's performance in this episode
@@saghhinooz1755 Omi really makes me feel for him, such a good character and good actor
Yes agree ..plus to say the intensity in the show is high is an understatement
If Hiromatsu had not raised his voice in that scene, all of Toranaga's servants who opposed him would have had to commit seppuku. Hiromatsu assumed this responsibility himself and believed in Toranaga's true intentions. His death was not in vain.
9:11 yeah the Japanese have a complete process in how they make tea it called tea ceremony
21:39 There were hints in this episode that showed that Hiromatsu knew about Lord Toranaga's true intentions.
1. Hiromatsu noticed that Lord Toranaga sent the priest away to tell others about what he had seen here, that Lord Toranaga is accepting defeat and surrendering. By sending the priest away, Hiromatsu read this as Lord Toranaga is getting ready to fight.
2. Hiromatsu told his son Buntaro, who wanted to die with him, to live on to serve Lord Toranaga, even if their lord seemed to be giving up.
When Toranaga mimics Hiromatsu’s eyebrow raise, y’all should know what’s up!
Hiromatsu true chad as a samurai
Somehow this show got me to tear up for a wife beater. That’s epic
I will die on this hill and I know I would get a lot of flak for this given that I have a male portrait:
I love that Mariko declined Buntaro's offer for a mutual suicide in the tea house scene. How she went about it and her choice of words, not so much. lets break it down.
1. From the flashback on episode 6, we can glimpse that Buntaro had always longed for Mariko. Mariko, on the other hand never really liked him, or even looked down on the Toda clan back then (confirmed by her saying to Ruri-hime that the Toda clan is a worthless alliance and that his father is casting her aside; and later to Toranaga that his father should have married him better)
2. We learn from the Toranaga couple's councelor arc that Buntaro did try ti aooease her but her icy demeanor never melted. And that he had to bear double insult of Sparing the life of a traitor's daughter; who later converted to Catholicism. double whammy right there.
3. then Toranaga revealed that, in fact, distancing her from the fight and marrying her off to someone who ensured she lives was part of her father's plan... BUT, come episode 7, she requests Toranaga to allow her to end her life.
we are coming from all that build up before the tea-house scene. so you can see a great deal of inconsistency in her character. it's either that or she is being consciously spiteful and saying the most hateful and vile thing that she knows will break his husband at this point. AND IT MAKES NO SENSE UNLESS THE PLAN WAS TO MAKE MARIKO SO DISLIKEABLE. and then to go around later and tell blackthorn that "when loyalty starts it has no end otherwise it is not loyalty", I call hypocrite. Just the previous episode, you asked for death from Toranaga who revealed to you your own father's grand design (a betrayal of your duty to your father and then to your Lord), then a scene before you rejected joining your husband in a seppuku of protest (a betrayal of your marriage); you really are in no position to berate and/or remind Blackthorne about the importance of loyalty.
Now, let me throw an olive branch and suggest how to better handle the scene (I am no writer so this is rudimentary but would make more narrative sense and progress Mariko's arc in a more positive way). "When we were a younger couple I resented you for the wrong reasons (this works as a good opening statement as it is an admission also of her misreading the great plans his father for her); and I know i have caused you great suffering by repeatedly asking you to let me die all this years (this shows accountability); BUT I have always respected Buntaro, the great warrior. What you are saying now dishonour's your father who have said earlier that he Believes Toranaga will fight. It dishonours our Lord whom you also doubt. And you dishonour yourself. I would sooner live a thousand years than die in this manner which you suggest"
Again, I am no writer and this is just a rudimentary thing, but I think this would have rounded her character more and would connect with her entire arc from the beginning (where we have been told that she did indeed want to die for she thought that was her duty then) to the present with every new information revealed to her giving her that change in perspective. I especially hate the fact that she did the right thing by rejecting his offer for death, and they use that as an excuse to give Mariko the right to act so vile, petty, and cruel.
And before anyone types the Usual Butthurt crap: NO, that does not mean that Buntaro's previous actions were excusable. Of course it is wrong for her to lay hands on her wife. And if he can show such effort in something as delicate and meticulous as the tea ceremony, he should have tried to communicate better with her wife instead of being this clumsy around her as we saw on screen. BUT. Nonetheless. It does not justify what she did to him here.
Are we to assume there is a spy in Toranaga’s ranks?? Is that who this sacrificial demonstration is meant to convince?
I don’t understand why Toranaga states it was meant to sway Yabushige to turn on him, when at the end of the episode, he has Mariko inform Yabushige of his plans anyway!!!
If he fills Yabushige in on the secret plan, then why go thru the ruse in the first place? For a spy ?? And if it’s for a spy, then why state to Mariko it’s for Yabushige? lol. Just confused on that part
It feels more and more like Mariko's part of Toranaga's plan involves her sacrificing herself in some way that assures his success, and it likely involves Ochiba. One of her last acts will be to convince Blackthorne to turn back and rejoin Toranaga. In fact, I'm not sure her involvement with John hasn't part of Toranaga's strategy, whether she knows it or not. This whole show has me guessing and second-guessing the truth behind what I see the characters doing.
personally, Toranaga's bestfriend's death was so hurtful because you can see both sides.
His bestfriend had some faith in Toranaga that he has plans up to the signing of surrender,He just didn't see that that signing is just a ruse.
Toranaga couldn't tell his bestfriend even if he wanted to because he had to sell that he really is surrendering and just hoping that his bestfriend could see beyond what's happening😞
Agreed. And it reminded me of when, in an earlier episode where Hiromatsu was questioning Toranaga's need for Blackthorne while facing imminent impeachment/death, and Mariko explained that he was using John to sow division amongst the Christian lords and Ishido, that Toranaga told his friend that he could do with having her talent for intuition. Another wonderful example of the quality of this show's writing. Hiromatsu's death brought tears to my eyes.
This show is amazing
last 2 episodes have ended with me like “wtf 😧”
4:48 are we not watching the same show? Isnt mariko the cold and calused one, and buntaro the emotional raging one?
EXactly！
Im under the impression he definitely knew beforehand. He was already seeding the plans at the beginning of the episode to Yabu. Then Tora says that to Mariko, dudes playing chess and Hiro his most loyal friend took one for the team
I think it was planned but he was just waiting for Toronaga to say yes and I think that eye twitching was the sign.
To paraphrase Sun Tzu: when you are weak, you must appear to be strong and when you are strong, you must appear weak. Toranaga has been working real hard this episode to appear weak 🤔🤫
While everybody is only having three hearts Toranaga was having like, four-heart chest!
So much sacrifice
If there's no season 2 the last episodes better be 2hrs long
Hiromatsu had to commit seppuku, because he miscalculated Toranaga. He was so convinced that before even the meeting started, he told the other Lords that Toranaga will fight, and just when Yabushige was about to sign his name and after Toranaga uttered the word "surrender", Hiromatsu was surprised of his Lord's decision. He did his best to sway Toranaga, but since he assumed wrong he had to save face by committing seppuku. It was so subtle you wouldn't even notice it because it was so quick.
Phenomenal seppuku scene, second best episode so far. I saw Previewed's thumbnail also. Channel See 1 had a funny one as well, a pic of his son with "Dumbest Character" over his head. lol. 4/9/24
Love the show man ..can you do video if there be a season 2
There will not be a season 2 of Shogun. There might be other books done, but they have other names.
Toranaga sama is like an onion. Layers, upon layers, upon layers, within layers.
Also F for the First Fuji-less episode.
Something to chew on to pass the time, choose one:
1. Hiromatsu and Toranaga talked and planned out the theatrics jointly
2. They came to an understanding of the part each of them had to play in the heat of the moment.
Yeah... I think I felt the same over the Buntaro/Mariko scene....heavily complex...a beautiful scene....that I'm not sure that I understand...but damn, dude had a harsh day!
What an utterly superb series....there's been some phenominal TV over the last decade or so...but this is a masterpiece.
His father's suicide....damn, that scene made THE RED WEDDING look like a minor accident at a sundy picnic, clumsily written by a teenage boy.
Powerful, powerful stuff.....There was something of "We can use suspense, tension building and great acting to show the utter horror of what's happening here, without having to actually show you....but hell, we're still going to show you!!!"....."You gotta understand the rules before you try to break them" These writers/directors understand the rules and they went beyond....masterful .
And that scene with Mariko and Buntaro....so interesting in that it was "beautiful"...but yet "beautiful" is totally the wrong word to describe what was actually going on.
I don't quite remember where Shakespere got his source material for Romeo & Juliet....but I'd be hella interested to see what he's write if he saw this!
Nope. You're not wrong. Toranaga always 10 steps ahead. What an amazing strategist. I feel like he basically sacrificed a rook to have his plan follow through. It's heartbreaking that Hiromatsu was willing to go along with it to save everyone. John and Yabushige are just the pawns. So predictable 😆
LOYALTY
Putting the church next to the whorehouse is TOP TIER trolling man, that cracked me the fuck up so bad
Hiromatsu committed seppuku, which is a political act and a kind of death in battle.
This show begins to show the absolute absurd reality of all beings... poetic and void
comments from tokyo.
episode8 is stunning.
however, I thought Hiromatsu seppuku was too abrupt and would be difficult to accept and indigestible for those who do not have an better understanding of the cultural background of japanese feudal era.
pls remeber stories
I am relieved to hear that your comment.
accept and indigestible for those who do not have an better understanding of the cultural background of japanese feudal era.
pls remeber stories
I am relieved to hear that your comment.
dialogue throughout whole episode inspired true events of many warlord.
Why does everyone pronounce Toranaga "Tora Naga" instead of "toh Ragana"? Don't they actually *_LISTEN_* to the way the Japanese actors pronounce it? Maye they're too busy reading the subtitles and can't multitask. I don't know.
Day 5 of petitioning you to watch Murderdrones
🙈✨🙈🔆🔆🔅✨✨✨
またハリウッド製の嘘ばかりの日本の時代劇だと思ってたがこれは
違和感があまり無い。まぁ、女子が歯を黒く染める習慣までは期待してはいけないが、、