Loss of Pressurization Citation Crash Baltic Sea 4 Sept 2022
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
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Juan, the 551 is a certified SP citation, I fly single pilot on a 560 ultra, I watch the pressurization gauges constantly. It is part of my scan during the flight. I am always so sad to see this type of mishap. You are correct on the press system. The older models have to analog gauges on the slant panel. Good analysis as usual…RIP to the crew and PAX
I didn't see your comment and I made mention of the -551 being an SP a bit later than yours. At the altitudes this airplane normally flies, the oxygen system and warnings , and a supplemental warning system, should be mandatory in these aircraft as the system controls and dials are not easily scanned
Lol ya sp….. only if you can get insurance and operate below 12.5 gross, not a common thing. But that aside I’ve had 3 acm failures in 550/560 airplanes. It’s just not that big a deal. And the emergency pressurization. Being hot ! as hell will make you do something quickly. Citation don’t decompress quickly without a bomb or missile.
@@tymatt4555 what does that mean? Yes, the IISP is limited on weight but so what? As far as ACM, I’ve never had one fail out of all three citations I fly, two 550s and an Ultra. Regardless, crew or single pilot must pay attention to the system(s).
@@rossvelardi6822 so we may never know but there is a bright red annunciator light that says “cabin 10,000 ft “ so you have to wonder if it was slow or explosive..
What is the warning system for pressure on these older citations? Do they set off a “Master caution/warning”? Is it a gauge only? If he knew of pressure issues as some reported, why would he continue climb and not return for service…?
Our Swedish Kustbevakningen (Coast Guard) is helping retrieving the jet from the Baltic Sea floor.
The place of the crash will make it a challenging and difficult investigation.
As part of a civilian flight test crew, we used to do hypoxia training at RAE Boscombe Down in the UK. It was quite an eye opener as to the number of people that didn't recognise the symptoms! We only trained to 25,000ft. Above 30,000ft we used to train in forced oxygen breathing where the oxygen in the mask is under pressure to assist the transfer into the lungs. So, at altitude, the first thing after the mask is getting below 30,000ft, then down to
The same training was conducted at RAF Wadding
Having served at RAF Waddington and RAF Cottesmore in the early 1960s
At least they didn't suffer, and died peacefully.
But why sensor is not there to recognise symptoms and automatically deploy oxygen and descend to lower altitude. Of course human might not notice it
@@martinkulik9466 totally agree... the other problem is contaminated air from bleeding system... no warning system on that either!
Sorry to hear this.
Good points with regard to testing your O2 mask preflight. I’m a training Captain at our airline operating ATR42/72s and I’m maniacal about ensuring our crews are properly pre-flighting the masks.
I’ve had the harness fail DURING a test. I’ve found it failed due to a test.
As well, and clearly this is model specific, but I train to observe the O2 gauge during the 100% O2 flow test. If maintenance has not completely opened the valve on the O2 bottle, the gauge pressure will drop while flowing O2 during that test. I’ve had that happen 4 or 5 times over the years.
I’ve had crew say things like “we only operate at 25000 feet, I’ve got minutes of useful consciousness!” My usual response is “regardless of our SOPs to test the mask, what’s your time if useful consciousness with a flight deck full of smoke?”
Keep up the great work.
B E
Use I and not I've
or write I have - which is not necessary in most instances
Simply writing I
will suffice
and stop earning English from illiterate children
I taught English and History for 15 years following a 30 year Military career
and my youngest students would fail you in an English exam.
@@andrew_koala2974 "stop earning English from illiterate children" LOL.
Pot, kettle.
For all those in the comment section asking why can’t they design the autopilot to automatically descend the aircraft in the event of a loss of pressurization; well they have.
Most newer business jets have some form of this function (Dassault Falcon, Gulfstream, Cessna, Embraer) called Emergency Descent Mode or EDM. The newer Citations I fly have this on the Garmin avionics suite G3000 and G5000.
Here is a description on how it works straight from my Citation Latitude Flight Manual (G5000).
“Emergency Descent Mode activates when the aircraft is above FL300, with the autopilot engaged and a cabin altitude above 14,500 feet.”
“When the EDM activates, the following occurs automatically: the EMER DESCENT CAS message displays on the PFD, the altitude preselector is set to 15,000 feet, the heading bug slews 90 degrees to the left, the autothrottle reduces power to idle, and the autopilot initiates a left turn and pitch down to descend at Vmo/Mmo -10. The crew must deploy speed brakes.”
Excellent info, thanks for sharing 👏 👍
If the crew is incapacitated by hypoxia and doesn't deploy the speed brakes, does the automatic system keep the plane from overspeeding into structural failure?
@@johnstuartsmith Yes.. The aircraft will automatically descend at an airspeed below the Maximum Operating limit speed, which is designated as Mmo (Mach) at higher altitudes or Vmo (knots) at lower altitudes. This speed is portrayed on the airspeed indicator and is often referred to as the barber pole. Deploying the speed brakes will allow the aircraft to descend to a safe altitude sooner, but is not necessary for the system to work.
@Brian Quinn Why the 90 degrees left turn?
@@guyseeten2755 Two reasons: 1. Traffic avoidance.. Turning 90 degrees gets you off your route of flight; which will usually be a Jet, Q, or just a popular route (think highway in the sky). By doing this, it keeps the aircraft from descending into other traffic that might be on that same route. 2. If the crew is incapacitated, ATC will notice this turn immediately and start working to aid the aircraft in distress by vectoring other aircraft away or coordinating with other facilities that might be of service.
According to the German Bild Zeitung, the pilot reported problems with the pressurization shortly after takeoff. Spanish, French and German fighters were deployed to check on the aircraft, and a Danish F-16 escorted it until it crashed.
WTH!!!! Damn pilot had advance warning too!!
@@sparky6086 Yes, that´s unfortunately a possible scenario.
He knew about the issue and stayed up there anyway? If the report is correct, and it might not be, it’s a suicide case.
Jep, I read that on different websites too, that they had already an escort from the French airspace on.
Must be hard for the f16 pilot too just see it crash in the sea
I was a flyer in the USAF for 21 years and was required to retrain in the altitude chamber every 18 months. Hypoxia is *insidious*. It's so easy to blink out without even knowing you're in trouble.
Indeed.
Great Call 🙏
Yeah, it is scary. I got a chance to do it once. it changed my view of hypoxia. You don't know it is coming until you can't do anything about it.
Would it make sense to include a dead man‘s switch in the cockpit that makes the aircraft quickly descend to a safe altitude if certain conditions are met? That may increase the chance of the pilot regaining consciousness after a while.
@@cbuchner1 Once anyone loses consciousness through hypoxia, they are in big trouble. I'm not sure a dead man's handle would operate soon enough to be of much use.
Thank you so much Juan, it earily reminds me of the Payne Stewart crash. RIP to those souls on board.
That's what I was thinking too.
I remember the Payne Stewart crash. Condolences to the families
First thing I thought of as well. So sad.
Nailed it
@@imo8249 Thanks Friend. Be well.
Thank you for what you do Juan, a great asset to the aviation community.
Update: According to spanish media the pilot was Karl-Peter Griesemann, owner of Quick Air Jet Charter in Cologne. Passengers were his wife, their daughter with her boyfriend and two dogs. They had spent the week before in their beach house at Zahara de los Atunes near Jerez.
Jeesus. Wiped the whole family, even the dogs and the boyfriend.
@@harveywallbanger3123 No. AFAIK there are two sons who weren't on the plane.
@@Fastvoice That's good news at least.
Excellent work on getting this analysis up so quickly, thoughts with everyone involved ad hopefully the best possible outcome transpires, given what we know at this time.
A very sad event. Indeed it remembers very much to the Payne-Stewart-Crash. Thank you very much for the video!
No audible warning…what a shame. Condolences to all involved. Thank you Juan.
Always enjoy your videos. Thanks Juan
Although flying for a private corporation, we always ran 2 pilot operations and at FL 350 placed our quick donning (and pre-flight tested) O2 masks right in front of us. Single Pilot jet ops, IMO are false economics for any pressurized aircraft.
That´s usually absolutely true - but not in this case. The Pilot was the owner of the company which owned this aircraft. He was not a professional pilot but a well-known Businessman, a 72-year-old Gentleman, occasionally flying himself his family as in this case, too, usually between his home in Cologne and his holiday facility in Southern Spain, as in this case, too. The three passenger were his wife, his daughter and the boyfriend of his daughter. His daughter holded also a Pilot´s license and a Type Rating of the Citationjet. So there were two pilots on board. And economics obviously doesn´t played a role here.
Launched in 2014, AV Tech’s Alt Alert is a personal altitude pressurization monitor that is smaller and lighter than most cell phones. It comes with three different mounting options, including a backing with suction cups for window mounting, a backing with Velcro for mounting against the instrument panel, and a clip to attach it to a visor.
Cheers for sharing that Mike 👍
how many times you gonna copy/paste that?
@@andrewjvaughan How about until these tragedies stop happening?
@@SteamCrane exactly. What a thing to complain about.
Wow to think that I went on flightradar 24 and saw a rescue helicopter which was flying to the last known position of the plane. I didn’t know why the helicopter was there but now I know. RIP
I applaud your attempt to educate everyone. Excellent video. Thank you for diligence.
Thanks for the great work you always do.
In 2000 in Australia, a Beechcraft Super King Air carrying mine workers lost pressurisation, resulting in 8 people being killed after the plane ran out of fuel after about 5 hours. It ended up flying diagonally across the country. It sticks in my mind as I was just starting to look for work in the mining industry at the time.
Same accident happened in 1999 (USA, Learjet) and in 2005 (Helios Airways, near Greece).
An old school friend was supposed to be on that flight and slept in. Don't miss the FIFO.
@@vrbnk Indeed.
@@GlideYNRG I ended up in oil& gas, actually enjoyed the chopper flights, well, the ones taking me home anyway!!
@@cerealport2726 always love the flying aspect of things especially on fly out days. Had to love the sight of an EMB120 overhead in the afternoons. But, enjoy sleeping in my own bed these days.
Sorry to hear it. Prayers for them, their families, and friends.
RIP for Those on board that jet
That was quick, Juan. I got a notification from Reddit about it around 11 AM my time.
Totally agree with you on oxygen use. During my corporate flying career I spent thousands of hours in Cessna Citations from the C500 through the C750. Having experienced both rapid and slow loss of cabin pressurization in a C550 and C560XL a total of at least a half dozen times, I can attest to the stress reduction benefits of donning your oxygen mask as soon as possible and even in anticipation of a system malfunction or failure that could result in loss of pressurization - such as a shattered windshield at FL410 in a 560XL, an ACM failure in a C650, and a cabin door seal warning in a C750 halfway to Hawaii from California, all of which I also experienced. All that aviators breathing oxygen we carry is there to be used not only to keep us from losing consciousness, but to supply our brain with oxygen to help us think and act clearly in an emergency.
You know, of course, that there are currently thousands of people who want to hear the story of the cabin door seal warning.......literally in the middle of nowhere. That must have become an interesting trip. AND..... What shattered your windshield? Did it totally fail, or what?
@@oleran4569 Yes. Quite scary. That was back in 2010 KVNY - PHNY. I'll have to dig up my notes from that flight and add them to the comments here for anyone interested!
Larry Smith
CORPORATE (Larry) not corporate
It is always in the ALL CAPS iteration
as are ALL CORPORATE {Legal) Names
as are the Names of ALL CORPSES
Learn that the word CORPORATION derives from the {Latin}
CORPUS - meaning DEAD - CORPSE - BODY
It is also how we derive the term BODY CORPORATE
Had you studied Law long enough you would have learned that.
Now that you know - be sure to remember it and write these things
correctly,
Pay attention to detail.
I was taught that flying in the RAF
Good luck and good bye
@@andrew_koala2974
cor·po·rate | \ ˈkȯr-p(ə-)rət \
Definition of corporate
1a : formed into an association and endowed by law with the rights and liabilities of an individual
b : of or relating to a corporation
a plan to reorganize the corporate structure
c : of, relating to, or being the large corporations of a country or region considered as a unit
the latest trend in corporate America
d : having qualities (such as commercialism or lack of originality) associated with large corporations or attributed to their influence or control
@@oleran4569 The shattered windshield was caused by a malfunction in the heating elements which are embedded between layers of acrylic and glass. This occurred at FL410 en route to TEB. The outermost layer is glass and considered ‘non-structural’ but when it shattered we had no way of knowing whether the entire pilot’s side would hold together. Also, at that time there was no published abnormal or emergency procedure for this condition. So, we donned our masks, declared and emergency and commenced an emergency decent and diverted to RDU. Not long after that, Cessna published a procedure in the checklist.
When I did my first rapid decompression training, the thing that surprised me most after the decompression was how 'normal' everything was.
Apart from the obvious 'expansion effects' of the curry and Ruddles County the night before, and a sudden mist appearing, it felt no different .... no difficulty breathing, no obvious changes in capacity. Even when given mental tasks to do when off oxygen, it was really difficult to notice the changes in cognitive ability that were so obvious to the observers still on oxygen.
I think you have to experience it to fully understand the insidious nature of hypoxia and how dangerous it can be.
Thank-You! Juan very well explained !
Thank you very much for making a video about that incident so very quick!
One thing I don't understand is, that the pilot reported a loss of pressurization already shortly after takeoff in the radio.
Why didn't he quickly used the oxygen mask and initiated an emergency descent?
Nobody will know... 😢
I wondered about that, too, but perhaps the reporting was incorrect as other details were wrong in that BBC article?
I just read about the pilot of this aircraft. He also was the owner.
He was 73 year old and recently recovered from a not mentioned sickness.
Maybe that caused, that he got unconscious in the pressure lost so quickly, that he wasn't able to retract.
And the other passenger didn't know, what to do.
(Just my guesses)
I saw this plane fly over my house near Paris. I noticed it because of the strange trail it had behind it, it looked like the trail was from two aircrafts at moments. Thought it was strange then saw the news and now realise that the second trail was most probably a fighter jet.
It must have been more than one fighter jet.
Thank you JB. Our condolences and prayers for the families and friends. RIP. ❤ 🙏
Thank you for your report, RB, Nova Scotia.
I believe all commercial pilots should have the opportunity to train in the altitude chamber. Hypoxia is insidious. I thought I was perfectly fine with my mask off, apparently the instructors had quite a job putting my mask back on as I was fighting them off. It was an eye opening experience I’ll never forget.
Went through high alt training in the Navy as a squadron Corpsmen, you are right it is so subtle, but once back on o2 your brain takes up exactly when it quit.
Not only for commercial pilots. For every pilot who is interested on it. I go regularly up to FL130, sometimes FL 140 with a Cessna 182 to drop skydivers. I guess at that altitude the effects are not severe, but in the case you are sick without knowing it can effect harder than when you are healthy. Or when you are under mental stress because of weather, ATC, etc.
So to know the effects could maybe not so bad for every pilot.
Maybe it should be possible to do that without a expensive chamber but instead with a mask on where the oxygen can get reduced. I don't know.
I agree completely. Unfortunately altitude chambers are not easy to find. They had one at Oshkosh but it was overbooked every day. 😡
All commercial pilots: why? Lots of commercial pilots never fly above 10,000 feet. All pilots flying pressurised aircraft or dependent on oxygen for safe conduct of a flight? absolutely
@@harryspeakup8452 I was just using commercial as a benchmark. So call it a high altitude endorsement to your comm ticket. Regardless it would be a good learning experience for all those who are paid to fly, you never know where, or how high your going to end up.
Thanks Juan for this video and a reminder to schedule a pressure chamber / hypoxia course. RIP and comfort to the families and friends.
Good video. You are very fast at responding to this. Was about to mail you about this incident :)
As a former military pilot I enjoyed recurrent rapid decompression training and learned my own symptoms encountering hypoxia in a chamber with air equivalent of 25000 feet. There should be a loss of cabin pressure warning in the aircraft and maybe we could incorporate an automatic emergency decent profile to below 10000 ft cabin alt into the autopilot. It amazes me how that could happen after the pilot reported issues with the cabin pressure to ATC.
Some of the newer, high end corporate jets do have that feature in their autopilot. I think the Gulfstream has it.
It sure does seem that it would take very little to at least have an alarm. Integrating into the autopilot and other systems seems like a great idea: The plane could scream bloody murder, squawk 7700, and get itself down to 10,000 feet (assuming there are no mountains in the way.) We have computers now. Let's use them.
@@CraigGood All well and good if it’s your aircraft, but if it’s a “rent a rig” and the owner is a tight##s maybe not…
The alarm could easily be an app on a phone.
@@bnetolldnataman Well, not just that but depress events are rare. Mismanaging an approach, not so rare. Cost/benefit analysis.
Great explanation Juan, thank you!
My guess is that the problems arose earlier. 36000ft over Luxembourg and Belgium is way too high to land in Köln.
That´s an important point, indeed, yes!
Not really ive flown this aircraft in the past and the rate of descend you can get from it is insane (sorry if my english is not good enough)
Thanks for fleshing out the tragic story, Juan. I saw it on the BBC site and the info was very sparse. Very sad. All the best, Mart in England.
A Great Report, Juan
A quick refresher.
A damn good reminder
A silent killer
As a pilot group, we haven't learned ANYTHING from the Payne Stewart accident. Regardless of the type of operation (Part 91, 135, 121), we should all follow the (former) guidance of parts 135/121 and have at least one crewmember wearing a mask above FL350. Ugh!
Launched in 2014, AV Tech’s Alt Alert is a personal altitude pressurization monitor that is smaller and lighter than most cell phones. It comes with three different mounting options, including a backing with suction cups for window mounting, a backing with Velcro for mounting against the instrument panel, and a clip to attach it to a visor. Sorry I beg to differ. The tech is there !
as a single pilot in the copilot maybe they should always be using auxiliary air
@@Mike7478F It's good to have one or more backup options, though. I gotta say, if I were flying at this altitude I'd want at least one person to have the mask already on. No matter how inconvenient. The chance of this kind of fatality happening is super low, but this type of preparedness could be life saving. And, there's a chance the plane could kill people on the ground, too.
@@islandlife756 Yep, you could also decide to never go outside anymore. What about the chance of having a meteorite falling on top of your head? We wouldn't want that....
that's not even a law anymore, it was rescinded in early 2020
Great comments Juan. Spot on. To add, TUC can be cut by as much as 50% after a rapid decompression.
*time of useful consciousness
Man, just like the Helios flight, rip to those who passed.
Sad news Juan. Happy landings from Portugal
This has happened quite a few times. I remember one where he was dropping but in that case, he regained consciousness and made a recovery attempt but it was too late.
Are you talking about Helios flight 522?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522
That is very sad. Thanks for the great and interesting explanation.
just was in recurrent practicing for a depressurization yesterday in a citation, it is incredible how fast it can hit you
very sad. thanks for the story juan.
Very similar to the mishap involving golfer Payne Stewart, and the earlier accident with LSU football coach Bo Rein.
The first incident resulted in a change in emergency proceedures in case of loss of pressurization.
The Citation crew may not have known what was happening ...
According to the tabloid newspaper, the pilot reported pressurization problems already shortly after departure...
@@Rob2 Indeed. And shortly after this report the radio communication with the aircraft broke down and was never reestablished.
Thanks for this post
I was flying an A-10 from Colonge to RAF Bentwaters when I had rapid depressurization at FL290. Diverted to a base in the Netherlands and was cleared to continue the flight home. Prayers for the families....
Juan should interview several of the commenters here. There are some great stories, I'm sure!
According to German News Reports the Citationjet was owned by a German Businessjet-Company called GG Rent, seated in Bergisch-Gladbach nearby Cologne. The Aircraft was registered in Austria. On board were one Pilot as Crew and three Passengers: a family (father, mother and a daughter).
So it would be fact what someone wrode here in the comment section: it was a Single-Pilot-Aircraft.
According to newer reports, the pilot (and plane/company owner) was the father, the family was his wife, his (adult) daughter, and her friend.
@@fritz46 Indeed. A well known Businessman from Cologne and his family. And he was indeed single-piloting the aircraft.
I understood that the daughter was a pilot of some description. She could have been in the right seat but that would have left her boyfriend in the cabin. I suspect the problem was earlier but the turn in German airspace needs explaining.
@@mroptimistic8957 Probably simply the waypoints which were programmed into the Autopilot. A statement of the Spanish ATC organization said today, that contact was lost short after the aircraft passed Toledo, that was still well into Spain.
But it is true that the daughter had also a Pilots License and a Type Rating for this model. So speculations I´ve readed about a heardattack or a stroke of the Pilot cannot match the truth. In such a case the daughter would simply had taken over the Command.
Payne Stewart was from my area. Tragic loss! Sorry to hear it happened again!
So sorry to hear about such tragedies.
The CE-551 is a single pilot Citation 2 so there could have been only one pilot on board.
As we know out of the news here in Germany, we pressurized incident occurred shortly after take off reaching their altitude. Great review Juan as usual. RIP
The Jets were sent from Laage and Neuburg (callaigns: LK01 and EA01) and followed them untill it was out of German Airspace.
GREAT JOB JUAN, SORRY TO HEAR THIS...
Looking forward to this video
Great presentation Juan thank you. I’ve been through the chamber a few times and had a RDC only once in flight in an F-101B when the canopy seal blew. It was loud and noisy as hell. Aborted our mission, masks on, a quick decent and RTB.
Sir, I really enjoy your presentations. Really insightful and very helpful for the aviation community. Could you expand on the technology of this type of Cessna and other corporate aircraft, don’t they have an automatic oxygen system for the passengers? I was assuming that is similar to automatic passenger oxygen system will engage similar to a commercial aircraft. Thank you again!
Good luck and keep working! 👍
This isn't a common occurrence, but I wonder how hard it would be to have an autopilot perform an emergency descend to 10,000 ft if it detects loss of cabin pressure and no meaningful control inputs/affirmative override.
What if the ground below you is above 10,000 feet?
I think most of the g3000 equipped planes like the piper m600 and TBM have this feature to automatically drop the altitude and avoid obstacles if the cabin pressure drops
The Embraer Praetor biz jets do this so the tech is available and in use. Getting a retrofit system designed, built, certified and being a profitable product to offer to an ever diminishing fleet of older planes is why this won't likely happen. Anyone know if the Gulfstream and Bombadier corporate jets have these auto decend systems available as an option?
@@marsgal42 Lol then it wouldn't descend to 10k feet and hit the mountain. It could easily avoid the terrain using radio altimeters, FLIR, GPS and/or E-GPWS until it could descend to 10k feet. As Stephen said putting the systems into place on older aircraft just isn't worth it for something that doesn't happen very often.
And then what? If the crew was unconscious, they might not be able to regain consciousness, and they would still crash.
Thank you RIP to all on board . , regards liz .
Thanks Juan.
This is yet another preventable accident- sad.
I hate to hear these tragic occurrences. Condolences to the families.
Good info to know; you mentioned Capt Moonbeam, had not seen his channel in a while,.
Looked him up, last post 6 months ago, may be gone, check on him.
Always entertaining.
RH LRD UPT, 68
Good report. In Swedish news it said they found small pieces of the plane and expected the investigation to take a long time since no "black box" was required on the plane.
It will be indeed a challenging and difficult investigation.
I did install and ops check the Kollesman
Valves in the XLS, when I would depressurize it would instantly cool off inside with the expanding air so that alone drops the temperature and starts the cold soaking internal well on its way. Also any humidity inside will instantly condense and you have a cloud.
Wasn’t the emergency oxygen bottle in the off position on Payne Stewart’s
@@the1sparkchaser I have never heard that, that is a pre-flight checklist item and it should never have been off. Sometimes some of them have a copper safety wire soft breakaway option to go from the on to off.
@@JSFGuy it was off
@@JSFGuy they were questioning how much oxy was in the tank because it had 100+ hours after the last confirmed fill, but should have been used on at least one flight , they did find a bleed air valve closed but couldn’t determine if the switch was off ,
@@the1sparkchaser it was off and they kept it on auto pilot and climbing. But the Lear is a bit different that the 550s.. and that was a bad habit on o2 in the early lears … we never shut off the o2 in a citation ever…..ever …I remember that day …I was on my 604 type ride in Montreal
Juan. Your videos are well done and timely. RIP to all those involved.
Question, why not have 1 of the pilots on O2 throughout flight at altitude? Universally speaking.
They lost contact with ATC way earlier than Germany as you claim. Media reports state they already lost contact with the aircraft in France just around 1hr after departure.
There was a report on the BBC that the pilot reported problems with pressurisation at some point early in the flight, but decided to continue.
It is worth noting that the Cessna 551 is licensed for single pilot operation. I speculate, but the possibility exists that there was only one pilot on board, in which case responding to an emergency such as depressurisation might be even more difficult than with two pilots.
The German and Austrian Newspapers are reporting in the meantime more about this crash. According to this the family of a well known Owner and CEO of a huge Industrial Company based in Cologne was on board. The 72 year old CEO piloted the aircraft as single pilot himself. He was also the owner and CEO of the Businessjet Provider to which this Aircraft belonged. His name was Peter Griesemann. He was also a big number in the Cologne Carnival. Contact was lost not long after Departure, Spanish authorities reported in the airspace above Toledo in Spain.
Very good explanation! Thank you! I will check if German news has anything.
Thank you.
i did not know that people had seconds in which to mask. useful and interesting information. thanks, Juan!
In the 350 our cabin altitude warning has a VERY LOUD voice and bell that will sound. They either missed it or didn’t have it. If they missed it they were already out. I include the cabin altitude in my scan and preflight the system each leg.
Today it became public that the Pilot reported a Pressurization Problem to the ATC still in Spanish Airspace and shortly before the radio communication broke down. Probably a deadly wrong priorization - the Pilot was neither a professional Airline Pilot nor a trained Air Force Soldier - he was an old Gentleman occasionally flying his family.
Thankfully modern autopilot systems have an emer decent mode that activates with loss of pressurization that drops the altitude to 15,000ft. In theory the pilot would have time to recover the aircraft before running out of fuel. Sadly there are MANY more old systems in operation without the modern safety features.
Good job, a lot of people don't get this for some reason they just it's hard for them to fully comprehend the importance of this.
just to clarify: the temperature drop (and thus condensation) is caused by the pressure drop, not by some A/C failure. (assuming same volume, p1/T1=p2/T2)
Strictly speaking, yes for a system isolated from its environment..
But in the case of aircraft pressurisation that's not quite the case. The air in the aircraft is kept at a desired temperature typically by one of two methods: a heater (e.g. one that burns fuel, where the burner is isolated from the air being heated) which heats air from outside before it is fed into the cabin; or via two bleed air feeds from an engine where low pressure air is fed through an air cycle machine (known as a pack) to cool it to almost freezing, and then mixed with hot high pressure air using a mix valve to achieve the desired temperature before being fed into the cabin. (E.g. JT8D engine used on the DC-9 and B-727 used 8th stage bleed air for the cool air and 13th stage bleed air for the hot air.) While the aircraft is insulated, the insulation is not sufficient to isolate "the system" from its environment, thus there is also cooling due to the aircraft being at an altitude where the surrounding air is below freezing.
A 72 year old man his 68 year old wife, his 26year old daughter together with a 27 year old man died in the crash. They have found wreckage!
Yes, he was a well-known Businessman in Cologne and to the Public probably even better known as the President of the Cologne Carnival organization.
Thank you we would never have gotten that info if it wasn’t for your help.
If this pilot continued with the climb despite having seen and notified a pressurisation warning, then he was a bloody fool. I'm sorry it cost him and anyone who he was flying with their lives obviously, and condolences to all family and friends concerned, but if the reports are true, then it was a needless and preventable loss.
How do you know that his report to ATC was not a last desperate act ?
@@hb1338 because the report says it was shortly after take off.
He may have perhaps did some things after making that call and felt he corrected the problem. Either way if thinking that it would have been a good backup to fly to the next destination on O2 especially with passengers.
@@natural-born_pilot You do not "fly to the next destination on oxygen" You do an emergency decent to below 10,000 feet and land at the first opportunity
I used to have a good friend in Jerez (pronounced Hereth) de la Frontera. It's a beautiful small city not far from the beach town of Cadiz. Very unfortunate to hear about this accident.
Maybe it's overdue with better procedures and automation to handle such incidents.
May they rest in peace and thank you for your peerless work Juan.
I know right? Seems like a no-brainer to make auto-pilot check on pilot responsiveness, and react by descending when it's understood that pilots may be unconscious.
@@bosshog8844 I don't know anything about flying but what does "pilot responsiveness" mean? Switching off an audible buzzer every so many seconds?
@@karlgant8953 Holding onto a dead man's handle, operating a control, oxygen pulse oximeter, even breathing out.
Hi Juan. Another accident Sunday to look at if you could please. N725TH. Close to home as I fly the same type and I was airborne in a TwinOtter in Canadian airspace 10 miles from their departure point. Keep up the good work. Thanks
I wonder why the autopilot doesn't automatically lower altitude when a depressurization occurs. Wouldn't that make sense as a feature? Most of the hardware is already there for the altitude hold feature and cabin altitude pressure sensing. Just detect high cabin altitude and then lower engine power and add down trim.
Edit: apparently it is a thing. I guess manufactures just deem it not worth it to deploy.
Most current and older autopilots aren’t that sophisticated and that would require a ton of very $$$ systems integration to make that a reality.
@@MSparks9509 I can see it being a rough approval process because of the abrupt altitude changes which would be needed for this to be effective.
That being said, mostly all the hardware is already in atleast most recently made aircraft. You have the "cabin altitude" pressure sensing and electronic elevator trim for automatic altitude control. I mean, the altitude hold autopilot, which this aircraft was flying with, uses the engines and elevator trim for this AP feature.
I would imagine that it wouldn't be difficult to create a software change that detects decompression and then gives automatic down trim
But I guess normal decompressions happen with structural damage in which case the autopilot would likely kick off anyways. So only in rare cases where the AP stays on (like this one) will this be effective.
It is a thing *today*. It wasn't when the aircraft in question was manufactured. The owner (actually the guy who was the pilot) didn't deem it necessary to upgrade.
It’s good to see that mask in an easily accessible place. Some can be in a very difficult and inexplicable spot to reach.
Probably never know for sure what happened here.
My pops is a citation and predator captain as a corporate pilot. Seeing Citation crash made my gut drop.
Juan Regarding emergency oxygen on most jets either private or commercial, is this a check list item ? It really should be and pilots should go through what you just explained. We only do what we are trained to do and in a emergency situation it as you said you may only have 30 seconds before blackout. Its sad that things like this happen as I remember Payne Stewart and his jet flew for hundreds of miles before crashing. Planes are like any other manmade thing and problems do happen and we must be ready for an event like this. Great reporting as usual.
I was PM on a ferry flight of a Mooney 252 from Canada to Scotland, We were at 25,000' on oxygen masks (the Mooney isn't pressurized). Cruise legs were about 7 hours. Among my tasks was monitoring oxygen flow. I realised that we might not have sufficient time to set up a descent if Oxygen failed. So we preset the AP to descend to 10,000' and then we had only one button to press (to activate descent) should Oxygen fail. Terrain permitting, one could use the same idea in a pressurized a/c to get the a/c heading down, obviating mask problems.
I did two trips in the NASA high altitude chamber in the Johnson Spacecraft Center in the 80's. Both times we did an explosive decompression.
My condolences
Sad to hear this.
A nod to military hypoxia training. Years ago, I was involved on an ARFF call where an A-10 had lost pressurization/mask flow at FL200 and the pilot was hypoxic. Somehow that pilot was able to land the plane safely and taxi. The pilot was in a degraded capacity. I guess muscle memory kept the plane from being a smoking hole.
Hog drivers are just harder to kill than others. 🤣
Likely true that military pilots spend more time in the gym.
Really fast reporting.
Your conclusion is surely correct. Cabin pressure lost. You refer to a US incident but there are more. A Greece or a plane flying there faced the same.
News here, Sweden, sounded like it was a private flight with one pilot and his family. Right? Can't tell for sure.
On the older Citation’s the quick don masks have head bands that must be adjusted to fit each pilot during pre-flight. The cabin altitude warning will trigger Master Warning and Cabin Altitude annunciations. There is no audible alerting. The passengers mask should have auto deployed, but would have not helped at that flight level. The pilot(s) could have also selected Emergency Pressurization, if they had been aware of a pressure failure earlier.
At pilot training chamber ride I was chosen to take my mask off at 25k. I had know idea I was out until the instructor was yelling at me “who put your mask on”. Very sobering experience.
Sadly it sounds like they lost consciousness when still in Spanish airspace. At least contact was lost when still in Spain as Spanish and French air forces, as well as German and NATO forces, followed the aircraft. Tragic
I had just thought about the Payne Stewart crash just last week….I remember everything about that day.
Thanks for the video! Has such aircraft blackboxes? If yes we may learn the details of what happened.
Damn they were so close to their destination too. Fate can be so cruel.
Thanks
Good old Capt Moonbeam! Miss his content
My understanding is that the Cessna 551 is a certified single pilot aircraft. This is a critical piece of information if the plane had only one pilot.