Ok so I watched this video and tried scrolling the comments, and only now realised this only had a few hundred views. I am genuinely blown away by the quality of this. Keep making content man, this is great stuff.
Another problem is that other arachnid heroes don't have the same problems Peter has. They can balance their lives well and have jobs since they are not so obsessed with "responsibility" that it honestly feels like an excuse for Peter to shirk his adult obligations.
I really like how you put it, that Peter actually uses his whole responsibility angle to avoid dealing with his adult responsibilities and issues. At this point, given where he's often at, I'd pause on the super hero stuff (even if its just for a day or two) and focus on putting my own house in order. He can't save anyone if he's a total mess, and that's something that a lot of modern comics avoid even acknowledging.
I think the real problem with those two is that they are no longer respected by writers and editors, it's as if they are taking it out on them. There is no Dennis O'Neil or David Michelinie in these cynical and apathetic times. And no, only Peter Parker is Spider-Man and Bruce Wayne is Batman. Everyone else is an imposter and feels fake and undeserved.
I agree with the respect angle. There's a level of respect and care that needs to be taken with these characters and franchises that have stood the test of time, and a lot of modern writers don't do that. There's a question of: "Does this make sense as a Spider-Man/Batman" story, especially in the mainline comics, and that question doesn't even seem like its being asked. As for the Peter and Bruce are only their alter egos thing, I think we can agree to disagree, and that's fine! For lots of people, that is very true. For me, having seen Miles Morales, DIck Grayson and Terry McGennis, I feel like these characters are more than their alter egos.
@@mayotango1317 Yeah that's where he originates from, but he's got a bunch of comics as well. Also I wouldn't call Batman Beyond a kids show, its pretty dark dark and adult.
i've been saying for years that peter parker spiderman should be allowed to retire and having him be married to his wife Mary jane and they have there daughter mayday parker spider-girl alive and kicking would be a fantastic story in my opinion, and having miles Morales Spider-Man being mayday parker spider-girl mentor and teaching her the ropes like her dad would be amazing and fantastic.
Love the vid i agree with what you're saying but the reason Matt Reeves The Batman follow up has had much news other than being a yes it's happening is because he and Bruce Timm have been working on Batman Caped Cursader more news should pic up in the future but Like i said amazing video keep up the great work man
First of all, Thank you for nice words! Secondly, I'm definitely excited for both the "The Batman" followup as well as the Batman Caped Crusader series (Which seems like its going to be a period piece, which is 100% a fantastic idea). I'll definitely be making videos on both once they release! Hope you'll stick around and add to the discussion! :)
The issue is wanting comic books to give you something that they just can't. There are multiple universes where Batman isn't Bruce Wayne or stuff like that. Those comics can be easily purchased and enjoyed. But asking for a definite end to a comic book superhero is like asking for a hooker to give you true love, not gonna ever happen. These Superheroes are supposed to be passed on to our children to read and have similar experiences that we had with them in our childhood. You're supposed to drop it if you feel that you've outgrown it and pass it to the little kids. They are not supposed to be relatable or reflect or mortal existence 1:1 but to teach moral lessons as they go on different adventures. Ofcourse there are many times Batman has had an ending like in the nolan movies but expecting it from comics just is not going to happen. Just my two cents.
I mean, I'd argue that they can. I totally get your whole point about passing stories down to our children, but I don't see why Spiderman and Batman can't be more like Sherlock Holmes, or James Bond, or Harry Potter or any of these characters that have already gotten an ending. I mean, I enjoyed the original Sherlock Holmes novels, and those written between 1887 to 1927. Sherlock Holmes is just as relevant in literature and pop culture today, and he's even had modern incarnations and twists done on him. And for me personally, I think a lot of comic book stuff is actually more than just for kids and young adults (Some stories are pretty darn adult) so I think it would be cool if there were other aspects of the human condition that were represented. I think your opinion is more realistic and you are probably more of a realist than I am, haha. Thanks for engaging with my idealism a bit here!
@@hardreseto personally I think that is why Batman Beyond hits so well it's a passing of time for the character. I think part of the problem is that when you have a universe with so many characters it's hard to have a logical next step when you have to factor in the others.
Thinking about Legacy a think about a Universe where before Bruce Wayne,Peter Parker there were other persons thar were Batman And spiderman. So there is a Batman in medieval times ,victorian age ,1900s -1910s , 1930s-1940s , And so on The same with spiderman.
I like batman because he represents the potential of human beings sure its not always written in a believeable way.All he is is a guy with a goal and the willpower and recourses to strive toward that goal.Wow you pretty much said that word for word my bad
It's funny, I thought of the similarities of Batman and Spider-Man a long time ago, and how they represent not just different places on the spectrum of humanity, but the philosophy of each comic giant. Batman is an idealistic human being, nearly impossible to achieve, and therefore is larger than life. The challenge is maintaining that idealistic philosophy and values. For Spider-Man, it's not just in being an ordinary human in their day-to-day life, it's the interference of being a super hero that makes that day-to-day life all the more difficult to maintain. It's interesting to compare and contrast them more than any other super hero pairing, I think, and probably one of the reasons why DC's villains, as challengers to the idealization that their heroes represent, are often more memorable than the villains of Marvel, who are a different sort of challenge and threat to day-to-day life and more mundane problems. Though of all Marvel heroes, Spider-Man perhaps has the only rogues gallery that can rival Batman's. In regards to your topic, I don't necessarily disagree, but I think the real problem is the continuous soap opera nature of not just comic books, but most American entertainment. I've been watching wrestling the past year and a half, and one thing I noticed is that a lot of story tropes will be repeated, characters will completely undo their "arc" or "development" from the prior year, and if you struggle to get invested in the story, the matches just blur together and even good performances get forgotten. I think one of the reasons the movies work so well is because they can not only be stand-alone, but they can conclude. Batman and Spider-Man have established their own "mythos", and that can be used to tell individual Batman stories with a beginning, middle, and end. The Arkham games can be Batman, the Nolan films can be Batman, The Long Halloween can be Batman, and none of them have to be the exact same tale or approaching the character from the same direction. Most importantly, aside from key elements (Batman is Bruce Wayne, his parents were murdered in front of his eyes when he was a child, so on and so forth), continuity does not need to be maintained. The thing is, you need to let time pass between each story before you tell the next (at least, within that medium). Unfortunately, both corporations AND fans struggle with letting something go for a while and experimenting with something new. Companies want to rely on recognizable IP, but they wouldn't be doing so if the fans weren't consistently gobbling it all up instead of trying the new IP. So, for my part, I look forward to the next good iteration of Batman, even if it's not for another ten years or so.
I think the issue being larger with American Writing and entertainment is probably true. Looking at things more broadly might be something I do in the future, but I personally am more engaged in and interested in these two characters, a lot of it because the similarities and almost mirror like quality between them that you mentioned.
Yeah well i get that. At the end of the day i don't think comic publisher's would be willing to do this sort of thing permanently. On a comic book front there is also the rest of the universe to take into account. Like of course there is a bit of wiggle room, but if someone like Bruce were to drastically age, it wouldn't make much sense for characters like Superman to stay the same as historically they have been similar ages. And that goes for the rest of the character's in universe too. Personally I would probably really love if Dick stood up and permanently took the role of Batman or if Peter settled down a bit and let Miles take centerstage, while he could have kids or something. But these changes probably would have pretty drastic consequences in universe and I'm not sure the writer's could commit to that. Again, not saying I wouldn't want that, I'm just saying I could understand them not going for that.
You raise a rather interesting point regarding continuity and shared universes. Personally, I actually think that multiple continuities would work well for all Comics. There can be a timeline/universe where Batman is completely solo, there can be one where he's part of the justice league e.t.c. As a whole I think shared continuity is cool, but it adds a lot of restrictions and complexities as you mentioned.
This is the comment I was just trying to make on my own earlier comment. It's complicated when you take into account the other characters in the universe. Maybe it would work if you had just 3 or 4 of these characters to extrapolate out into time.
But that is part of the thing others should age too not just these ones and with the infinite ways they have to revive someone I don't think it would be hard to age batman without the others, you can pull a time travell, a captain america when he got old, make him irredimably cripled after saving the world, anything would do as long as respectfull for a last stand. And even if not honestly most of the core members in the JL could still work, superman is kryptonian so they could do something like viltrumites, Diana is inmortal, flash has the speedforce, John is a martian so delayed aging can be explained, maybe just the Green lanters and batman have to age. Also this problem ignores that nightwing and other sidekicks aged while their mentora seem to remain the same age.
I was really torn on this video, I even turned off and walked away with no plan to return to it. But you had me intrigued and I had to come finish the video. Largely I don’t agree with your conclusions but do like some of your ideas. In particular I’d love to see new takes outside of their larger universes to wrestle with how the ideas of these characters could work and adapt to modern times and technology. But I don’t agree with passing on the mantle, to me Bruce Wayne is Batman and no one else taking on the mantle will ever be Batman. They are someone else, a different hero, and always will be. Peter Parker is Spider-man and he would not be able to sleep at night knowing that if he had just been out on patrol being Spider-man at least one more person might have been helped. Doesn’t matter if there are other Spider people, like Miles, out helping. He couldn’t live with himself if something happened and he couldn’t have been out there. I really think the solution isn’t passing on mantles or permanently killing off characters. I think it’s lets these characters be allowed to be explored more outside the confines of these large universes.
Well, let me say I'm glad you watched the whole video, even if you disagree with large chunks of it. I personally think that passing the mantle is fine, and there are stories that prove that it can work. But I don't think the mantle passing can be whilly nilly either. It has to be done tastefully, and Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker deserves proper endings to their stories. For me, seeing them perpetually stuck in their 20s-30s seems like a big missed opportunity. I totally agree with you about shared universes, and the fact that these characters are more interesting solo, so hey, there's a few things we agree on. Thanks for the comment and expressing your take! And thank you for watching the video and contributing to the discussion =]
i think spider-man needs a break let the man have mary jane and grow as a charcter instead of being fucked over twenty four seven.Let bruce wayne retire like in batman beyond like let them rest before some shitty writer ruins the legacy completely
I think that's a pretty valid concern, if only because I feel like some of that has happened. One More Day, Brand New Day for Spiderman, not to mention what happened with Ben Reily becoming Chasm and all that. Some things are just best ended before they get too drawn out
There's a video by sages rain explaining why people can't really be batman. They don the cape and cowl but they cannot really be him. Bruce throwing money at a corrupt system doesn't help. Look no further than the Gotham knights game and tell how well it did
Would definitely love to take a look at this video. Please feel free to link me to it! As for people being Batman, I think there's a lot of evidence to the contrary as well. I'm thinking I'll do a video on Batman White Knight (The Comic Trilogy series), which is actually one of the best and unique Batman stories in years
I don't know that I think Gotham Knights is a straight example, though. The plot is "Batman's dead, for real. Now what?", yes. The answer isn't "who's Batman now?", though. It's about the heroes who were his students teaming up to protect Gotham City now that Batman's gone. Nobody tries to become a new Batman, they stay the superheroes they already were. Most people I've discussed the game with who weren't flat-out making fun of it thought the plot was actually pretty good. It's that the experience of driving around, fighting faceless enemies, going to the same places over and over again, got old fast. That was my main problem with Gotham Knights too.
The problem is not that Spiderman or Batman are broken it is that we over analyze superhero comic books today. Comic books were created to make money and be FUN to read. It was media designed for kids to have fun reading in large part to get away from the dreary and sad world of the The Great Depression. What has happen the kids who read comic books grew up and want more logical and adult themed stories. In my opinion adults have ruined comic books. The more sophisticated they become, just sucks all the fun out of them. Sadly maybe the time of the Superhero genre is over. Like I have been saying for along time I did out not grow comic books they have out grew me.
I think we can agree to disagree here. I've been reading comics from a young age, and while it was certainly true in the Golden and Silver Age of comics, Batman and Spiderman from the begining, have been more adult and teen themed, and then progressively gotten darker and more adult, before the reset buttons were hit. I'm not sure Modern Batman or Spiderman Comics are for kids, nor some of their best storylines and runs (some of which I mention in the video). Heck stuff from Scott Snyder is downright horror esque at times. And Spiderman? The whole stuff with Mary Jane and One More day, I just don't see really young kids getting all that stuff. There are certainly comics aimed towards kids, and maybe some certain series or books for Batman and Spiderman are as well, but predominantly, I feel like both characters have always had an adult themed edge to them, in all their media.
The characters do lose their appeal if there is someone else behind the mask Peter Parker is spider man and Bruce Wayne is Batman that’s what it is spider man is not a mantle spider man is an alter ego a projection of Peter Parker and Batman is a suit than can be worn by others but it can never be same because Batman comes from Bruce losing his parents in an alley that can never be replaced. To take that away and put other people behind the mask all for the sake of wanting the characters to change is wrong the characters are who they are and should be until they die
I mean, That's a valid take. Personally I'm fine with Spiderman and Batman ending with Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker, and new different heroes rising to fill the void. I honestly, think either version is fine. Is there a new Batman or Spiderman that comes out after the originals die, or is there a new hero entirely. In either case, I think the important thing is for Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker to get their endings and resolve their stories
@@hardreseto Yeah That’s why I don’t like legacy characters one thing they did right with Dick Grayson is making him Nightwing his own hero instead of the next batman it’s original like what I live about superheroes is everyone has their own gimmick
I am not sure I agree. The Batman was very good, Batman animated films are generally good, and there have been so many good runs in Batman over the last decade that a few bad Zach Snyder movies and a feature in a bad Suicide Squad game don't add up to a structural problem. As for Spider-man, the book has been far more hit or miss since the Superior Spider-man run, but the films are generally the most popular and well liked in the MCU, nevermind the hugely popular Miles Morales (which is both animated and a film), and the games are excellent. Marvel generally doesn't make particularly good animated series--that is my take--but as you noted there is a correspondence between enjoyment and when you were a kid. I am 36, so like you I have fond memories of the 98' show, but that isn't concrete. What you describe is just the effect of an old medium that is subject to cycles. Comic books use a range of writers who leave and comeback, succeed or fail, but must necessarily bring completion to their story. As this media accrues there is no doubt that content becomes more and more retread. But these characters continue to produce excellent stories. I don't read Spider-man comics closely, but between Scott Snyder, Tom King, Grant Morrison, Sean Murphy, Mattson Tomlin, Ram V, Geoff Johns, Mark Waid, and Chip Zdarsky's fantastic run I am not sure how anyone can say that Batman comics haven't been good. There are a lot of them, but they also get the best writers that DC has to offer.
I think we agree on a lot of things. I think the future is a bit uncertain with The Batman (as I said in the video, its been two years and we haven't heard anything of a follow up), and I do wonder if it'll get sidelined for James Gunn's "Brave and the Bold". I agree with you that Marvel isn't the best at making animated work, but I do think the recent Batman animated films were a bit hit or miss. I like Long Halloween, But Hush was really bad in how it changed the central story, and a lot of the Tomorrow verse stuff has been a bit subpar for me. I'm glad you enjoyed that stuff. No disagreements on Miles and the Spiderverse, though I have quite a few issues with the story telling of Marvel's Spiderman 2 (The latest insomniac developed title). I have a plan to cover all of that in a future video, so maybe we can continue that discussion there. As for Batman and the comics, I'll agree with you with regards to Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison, but the others are a bit hit or miss for me. Tom King's run and the whole Catwoman Wedding arc was rough, and I think Geoff Johns uses Batman great alongside other DC Characters (aka with the Flash, Justice League e.t.c.). And I wasn't a huge fan of the whole FailSafe thing that Chip Zdarsky did either. Going back farther, I feel like beyond Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder, there's not a lot of new or interesting ideas that haven't been done before. That said, different things appeal to different people, so I'm glad to hear from you and your take. Thanks for engaging in the discussion! :)
Here's the thing In Japanese comics each character is part of a larger continuous story and often act as a piece in the Puzzle. That offers a lot more time and a necessity to give these characters more depth explore them a bit deeper and delve into their motives or actions Spiderman and Batman or more or less diffrent iterations of the same character and the same group of Villains Not saying its wrong in any way But there are many different versions of Spider-Man encountering the green Goblin or Batman facing the joker but the story and the character's stay largely the same I think its time to give new intresting villains side characters find unique ways to push these heroes to their limits Long story short there are many versions of Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker but in most cases There's only one Goku only one Naruto who has their own self contained continuous story
I think you really hit on something interesting, which is villains. That can be another video in itself, but both Spiderman and Batman have had a mostly static cast of support characters and antagonists.
I think you don't understand Batman. And i will explain this to you on why you don't. Spider-Man is about to grow and be a man that why his story should end Batman is about a man becoming a creature without rejecting his humanity (Bruce Wayne) so he is not a normal human being, he is the Batman a Bat (creature) and a Man (Bruce Wayne) but not like Spider-Man where it's more of a gimmick with spider-like powers but more in a spirituel way and symbolic way, his ego (Batman) is a representation of himself in a powerfull and in a eternity way but also in a complete way, it's a never ending battle and a never ending war because Bruce love being a hero he enjoy being Batman (himself). His lore, Gotham, his villains is a reflection but also a dream his imaginations taking place in a real life, Batman lore is a wonder land He is a child in a adult form who didn't experiance a good childhood, that why he is Batgod that why he is a fantastical character. Spider-Man is created to reflect what is a real life with pain and growing up and change, Batman is created to reflect a imaginary world and a impossible world. He is not a street level character or a super hero but a pulpy character who fit in many genre he is a never ending character like Superman The reason on why Batman recent stories doesn't work is because current writers don't know how to use him and his lore perfectly, character assassination moments ect Batman don't have the same problems like Spider-Man. Batman as a character is eternity Spider-Man as a character is about growing up and ends I think you don't understand Batman and his lore you're right on Spider-Man but not on Batman and comics in general Good video but bad takes and lack of understanding on some parts.
Hrm... There's certainly a lot to unpack here. I think a lot of what you mention regarding Batman is more around the core concept of what Batman is, and what's meant to serve as. A symbol, a deterrent, and something larger than life. That's what Bruce Wayne is intending to do, when he creates the moniker of Batman. But as you yourself pointed out, Batman as an idea, as an entity, exists beyond a single human being, and that's why I think the mantle of Batman can change with time, and its not tied to Bruce himself. The other important part about Batman and Bruce Wayne, is that while he may be creating this image, this legend even of this creature of the night, Batman is, at the end of the day, a human being. That's what makes him so interesting, and I'd argue that he's NOT at all like Superman, who is more "inhuman" and beyond human thanks to his powers and abilities. As I mentioned in the video, a big part of the appeal of Batman is that, despite his riches, knowledge and skills, he is still at the end of the day, a human being, and he represents the pinnacle of what a human being can achieve, given the right resources. Batman as an idea, as a symbol, as a concept can be eternal, but I disagree that Batman as a character is that way. Look, I appreciate the insight and the comment, and I'm not going to say that you don't understand Batman, and that I do, because at the end of the day, Batman can be interpreted in different ways. As a fictional character, I don't think there IS such a thing as a "correct" understanding, only interpretations and what you get out of him.
I'll agree with you, the goal of these. publishers are to keep their characters perpetually young in their prime so they can keep the comics on the shelf indefinitely. That is the main reason I fell off capes in tights stories, simply they are cyclical without any development in characters. what do you think of the idea that marvel/dc adopt a manga style storytelling technique instead of the current cyclical arrested development model? I am looking at you Peter Parker! so for example, writer x will take control of batman for a few years. He tells the story of bruce's life span from beginning to his retirement or ultimate sacrifice. another writer, y, comes in with a pitch focusing on his early years, his training and taking down crime and corruption in Gotham. a decade or so later, writer z comes in with another take, maybe tweaking his echo-system. think absolute batman. this model would be similar to the movies. you have the Burten , Schumacher, Nolan and Reeves flavors to choose from. I ask this because I am getting sick of the whole "sliding time scale continuity", where you can't really get a meaningful resolution to the story or have actual change to the status quo while also constrained by an inconsequential fictitious continuity that gives the illusion of change and development.
I think you really nail the problem here with regards to continuity and change. I think there's a lot western comics can learn from Manga and its success in recent years, and one of those is change and adjustment over time. I mean, you can even look at something like Moriarty the Patriot and how they take a classic established literary character like Moriarty, make him the protagonist of the story rather than Sherlock Holmes and really come out with a new story from an entirely different perspective. Its fresh, unique and original. Comics do this SOMETIMES, Batman White Knight is an excellent example, but its always side stuff and never the main continuity. And I think change and permanent status quo changes are necessary for events in stories to matter, and for them to resonant. Great insights! Thank you for the comment!
I get what you saying cuz I agree I think it is time for Batman and Spider-Man to be moved past something like it's kind of crazy because you hear how you can't replace Batman or Spider-Man like out of all the characters you can't replace them at all and if you bring up miles or Terry McGinnis a lot of people get upset because they're like no you're trying to replace them because you want this young hip diverse person that take over the role for Batman and Spider-Man but it's just like they've done everything with these characters so either transition them and to do something else like Superman Superman was able to marry Lois Lane and then eventually they had kids Batman need to eventually be able to do something besides being the loner with another adoptive kid being his sidekick you know he need to either get married or you know let Dick Grayson take over or something like that or at least you know do what DC was trying to do before the new 52 I believe was where Dick Grayson was going to be Batman for Gotham City and then Batman was going to travel around the world and be more of a mentor to other people who was inspired by the Batman metals That could be something interesting with Spider-Man you like you said get get him to get married with Mary Jane have his kids and have him be less Spider-Man more Peter Parker while mentoring you know miles Morales and or Ben Riley That sounds really good but you know again a lot of people nowadays especially with the way comics are are afraid that those characters like Miles like Terry like Ben like even Nick Grayson are there to replace the classic character because the comic book industry want these characters to be more diverse and it's just like not really like there are certain characters like you know when they did try to bring in black Batman for future state or I think Marvel was trying to like get rid of Peter Parker and replace them for his clone The way they went about it didn't work in current today's generation but I believe that if they had a good story set up they could have easily told a good story
Yeah I agree on the execution aspect. Clone Saga was just a mess (even if I personally liked Ben Reily a lot) and Future State was... weird. I don't mind a black batman, but it has to make sense, like you said Dick Grayson, Terry McGinnis and even Damian Wayne have all been good executions of the "Next Batman" idea. I'd say Miles is also pretty darn solid. I do remember reacting a bit oddly to Miles when he was first revealed, but I'd say Bendis really brought the character into his own, and the execution was really good. Miles struggling to fill in the void left behind by Peter Parker is So central to the character. Its why the Spiderverse movies kept that piece of his character in tact.
Well I thought that Spider-Man is the most broken because marvel comics doesn’t want him to grow up and just do the same thing like he has some Peter Pan Syndrome.
Taking two characters that not only remain important after all these years but also have boom in their popularity every few years and stating they are in decline. No, they are not, just because some of the stuff that is coming out right now is hit or miss that doesn't change the fact that it's ALWAYS been like this. You talk about a character whose animated film just got showered with awards, you talk about batman who is now so popular there is multiple movies starring this character being made almost all at once and you talk about decline? Maybe it's just your nostalgia speaking, you remember the good stuff and forget about all the trash that came with it. Don't even let me begin what was the state of comic book characters in the 90s and 00s. It's literally the same now, just on a bigger scale. They are doing fine, maybe even better than ever, I disagree with the point of this video completely.
I mean, that's a fair take. We both have the same sets of data, so different interpretations are fine. I personally had a different read for Comics in the 90s and Early 2000s, but hey, we can agree to disagree there. I'm also one of the weird people that kinda liked bits of the Clone Saga and what not, so I'm not going to say I always align with the majority. That said, to me, things do feel like they're in decline, and I also feel like Bruce and Peter are pretty overdone at this point. Are Batman and Spiderman doing fine? Sure. Are they where they were at their peak (Popular animated series, movies and games?), I don't believe so. Thanks for the comment though, I appreciate the different perspective :)
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Ok so I watched this video and tried scrolling the comments, and only now realised this only had a few hundred views. I am genuinely blown away by the quality of this. Keep making content man, this is great stuff.
Thank you so much! Glad you liked the video! I'm relatively new, but have a lot more similar content planned! So hope you stick around!
Another problem is that other arachnid heroes don't have the same problems Peter has. They can balance their lives well and have jobs since they are not so obsessed with "responsibility" that it honestly feels like an excuse for Peter to shirk his adult obligations.
I really like how you put it, that Peter actually uses his whole responsibility angle to avoid dealing with his adult responsibilities and issues. At this point, given where he's often at, I'd pause on the super hero stuff (even if its just for a day or two) and focus on putting my own house in order. He can't save anyone if he's a total mess, and that's something that a lot of modern comics avoid even acknowledging.
I think the real problem with those two is that they are no longer respected by writers and editors, it's as if they are taking it out on them. There is no Dennis O'Neil or David Michelinie in these cynical and apathetic times.
And no, only Peter Parker is Spider-Man and Bruce Wayne is Batman. Everyone else is an imposter and feels fake and undeserved.
I agree with the respect angle. There's a level of respect and care that needs to be taken with these characters and franchises that have stood the test of time, and a lot of modern writers don't do that. There's a question of: "Does this make sense as a Spider-Man/Batman" story, especially in the mainline comics, and that question doesn't even seem like its being asked.
As for the Peter and Bruce are only their alter egos thing, I think we can agree to disagree, and that's fine! For lots of people, that is very true. For me, having seen Miles Morales, DIck Grayson and Terry McGennis, I feel like these characters are more than their alter egos.
@@hardreseto You know that Terry is a cartoon character from a kid show? He is not from the comics like Damien or Helena.
@@mayotango1317 Yeah that's where he originates from, but he's got a bunch of comics as well. Also I wouldn't call Batman Beyond a kids show, its pretty dark dark and adult.
Good content man! Commenting for engagement
Thank you so much! Appreciate the support!
i've been saying for years that peter parker spiderman should be allowed to retire and having him be married to his wife Mary jane and they have there daughter mayday parker spider-girl alive and kicking would be a fantastic story in my opinion, and having miles Morales Spider-Man being mayday parker spider-girl mentor and teaching her the ropes like her dad would be amazing and fantastic.
Agreed! I actually mention MayDay Parker and Miles in the video, so I think we both want the same thing.
@@hardreseto ooh awesome man
Love the vid i agree with what you're saying but the reason Matt Reeves The Batman follow up has had much news other than being a yes it's happening is because he and Bruce Timm have been working on Batman Caped Cursader more news should pic up in the future but Like i said amazing video keep up the great work man
First of all, Thank you for nice words! Secondly, I'm definitely excited for both the "The Batman" followup as well as the Batman Caped Crusader series (Which seems like its going to be a period piece, which is 100% a fantastic idea). I'll definitely be making videos on both once they release! Hope you'll stick around and add to the discussion! :)
@@hardreseto I definitely will lol I just subbed
The issue is wanting comic books to give you something that they just can't. There are multiple universes where Batman isn't Bruce Wayne or stuff like that. Those comics can be easily purchased and enjoyed. But asking for a definite end to a comic book superhero is like asking for a hooker to give you true love, not gonna ever happen. These Superheroes are supposed to be passed on to our children to read and have similar experiences that we had with them in our childhood. You're supposed to drop it if you feel that you've outgrown it and pass it to the little kids. They are not supposed to be relatable or reflect or mortal existence 1:1 but to teach moral lessons as they go on different adventures. Ofcourse there are many times Batman has had an ending like in the nolan movies but expecting it from comics just is not going to happen. Just my two cents.
I mean, I'd argue that they can. I totally get your whole point about passing stories down to our children, but I don't see why Spiderman and Batman can't be more like Sherlock Holmes, or James Bond, or Harry Potter or any of these characters that have already gotten an ending. I mean, I enjoyed the original Sherlock Holmes novels, and those written between 1887 to 1927. Sherlock Holmes is just as relevant in literature and pop culture today, and he's even had modern incarnations and twists done on him.
And for me personally, I think a lot of comic book stuff is actually more than just for kids and young adults (Some stories are pretty darn adult) so I think it would be cool if there were other aspects of the human condition that were represented.
I think your opinion is more realistic and you are probably more of a realist than I am, haha. Thanks for engaging with my idealism a bit here!
@@hardreseto cool.
I have always loved this concept. I am fascinated with the idea of our heroes growing old and leaving behind a legacy.
Agreed. I think its just part of the human experience, and its the one thing that I think needs to stick and actual be a lasting change :)
@@hardreseto personally I think that is why Batman Beyond hits so well it's a passing of time for the character. I think part of the problem is that when you have a universe with so many characters it's hard to have a logical next step when you have to factor in the others.
Thinking about Legacy a think about a Universe where before Bruce Wayne,Peter Parker there were other persons thar were Batman And spiderman.
So there is a Batman in medieval times ,victorian age ,1900s -1910s , 1930s-1940s , And so on
The same with spiderman.
great video man
Thank you! Glad you liked it!
@@hardreseto your welcome man :)
I like batman because he represents the potential of human beings sure its not always written in a believeable way.All he is is a guy with a goal and the willpower and recourses to strive toward that goal.Wow you pretty much said that word for word my bad
Haha totally cool. I think its why a lot of us really relate to and enjoy the character! :)
It's funny, I thought of the similarities of Batman and Spider-Man a long time ago, and how they represent not just different places on the spectrum of humanity, but the philosophy of each comic giant. Batman is an idealistic human being, nearly impossible to achieve, and therefore is larger than life. The challenge is maintaining that idealistic philosophy and values. For Spider-Man, it's not just in being an ordinary human in their day-to-day life, it's the interference of being a super hero that makes that day-to-day life all the more difficult to maintain. It's interesting to compare and contrast them more than any other super hero pairing, I think, and probably one of the reasons why DC's villains, as challengers to the idealization that their heroes represent, are often more memorable than the villains of Marvel, who are a different sort of challenge and threat to day-to-day life and more mundane problems. Though of all Marvel heroes, Spider-Man perhaps has the only rogues gallery that can rival Batman's.
In regards to your topic, I don't necessarily disagree, but I think the real problem is the continuous soap opera nature of not just comic books, but most American entertainment. I've been watching wrestling the past year and a half, and one thing I noticed is that a lot of story tropes will be repeated, characters will completely undo their "arc" or "development" from the prior year, and if you struggle to get invested in the story, the matches just blur together and even good performances get forgotten. I think one of the reasons the movies work so well is because they can not only be stand-alone, but they can conclude. Batman and Spider-Man have established their own "mythos", and that can be used to tell individual Batman stories with a beginning, middle, and end. The Arkham games can be Batman, the Nolan films can be Batman, The Long Halloween can be Batman, and none of them have to be the exact same tale or approaching the character from the same direction. Most importantly, aside from key elements (Batman is Bruce Wayne, his parents were murdered in front of his eyes when he was a child, so on and so forth), continuity does not need to be maintained.
The thing is, you need to let time pass between each story before you tell the next (at least, within that medium). Unfortunately, both corporations AND fans struggle with letting something go for a while and experimenting with something new. Companies want to rely on recognizable IP, but they wouldn't be doing so if the fans weren't consistently gobbling it all up instead of trying the new IP. So, for my part, I look forward to the next good iteration of Batman, even if it's not for another ten years or so.
I think the issue being larger with American Writing and entertainment is probably true. Looking at things more broadly might be something I do in the future, but I personally am more engaged in and interested in these two characters, a lot of it because the similarities and almost mirror like quality between them that you mentioned.
Yeah well i get that. At the end of the day i don't think comic publisher's would be willing to do this sort of thing permanently. On a comic book front there is also the rest of the universe to take into account. Like of course there is a bit of wiggle room, but if someone like Bruce were to drastically age, it wouldn't make much sense for characters like Superman to stay the same as historically they have been similar ages. And that goes for the rest of the character's in universe too. Personally I would probably really love if Dick stood up and permanently took the role of Batman or if Peter settled down a bit and let Miles take centerstage, while he could have kids or something. But these changes probably would have pretty drastic consequences in universe and I'm not sure the writer's could commit to that. Again, not saying I wouldn't want that, I'm just saying I could understand them not going for that.
You raise a rather interesting point regarding continuity and shared universes. Personally, I actually think that multiple continuities would work well for all Comics. There can be a timeline/universe where Batman is completely solo, there can be one where he's part of the justice league e.t.c. As a whole I think shared continuity is cool, but it adds a lot of restrictions and complexities as you mentioned.
This is the comment I was just trying to make on my own earlier comment. It's complicated when you take into account the other characters in the universe. Maybe it would work if you had just 3 or 4 of these characters to extrapolate out into time.
But that is part of the thing others should age too not just these ones and with the infinite ways they have to revive someone I don't think it would be hard to age batman without the others, you can pull a time travell, a captain america when he got old, make him irredimably cripled after saving the world, anything would do as long as respectfull for a last stand.
And even if not honestly most of the core members in the JL could still work, superman is kryptonian so they could do something like viltrumites, Diana is inmortal, flash has the speedforce, John is a martian so delayed aging can be explained, maybe just the Green lanters and batman have to age.
Also this problem ignores that nightwing and other sidekicks aged while their mentora seem to remain the same age.
I was really torn on this video, I even turned off and walked away with no plan to return to it. But you had me intrigued and I had to come finish the video. Largely I don’t agree with your conclusions but do like some of your ideas. In particular I’d love to see new takes outside of their larger universes to wrestle with how the ideas of these characters could work and adapt to modern times and technology. But I don’t agree with passing on the mantle, to me Bruce Wayne is Batman and no one else taking on the mantle will ever be Batman. They are someone else, a different hero, and always will be. Peter Parker is Spider-man and he would not be able to sleep at night knowing that if he had just been out on patrol being Spider-man at least one more person might have been helped. Doesn’t matter if there are other Spider people, like Miles, out helping. He couldn’t live with himself if something happened and he couldn’t have been out there. I really think the solution isn’t passing on mantles or permanently killing off characters. I think it’s lets these characters be allowed to be explored more outside the confines of these large universes.
Well, let me say I'm glad you watched the whole video, even if you disagree with large chunks of it.
I personally think that passing the mantle is fine, and there are stories that prove that it can work. But I don't think the mantle passing can be whilly nilly either. It has to be done tastefully, and Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker deserves proper endings to their stories. For me, seeing them perpetually stuck in their 20s-30s seems like a big missed opportunity.
I totally agree with you about shared universes, and the fact that these characters are more interesting solo, so hey, there's a few things we agree on. Thanks for the comment and expressing your take! And thank you for watching the video and contributing to the discussion =]
You deserve more views dude
Thank you! That's very kind of you to say! :) Glad you liked the video!
i think spider-man needs a break let the man have mary jane and grow as a charcter instead of being fucked over twenty four seven.Let bruce wayne retire like in batman beyond like let them rest before some shitty writer ruins the legacy completely
I think that's a pretty valid concern, if only because I feel like some of that has happened. One More Day, Brand New Day for Spiderman, not to mention what happened with Ben Reily becoming Chasm and all that. Some things are just best ended before they get too drawn out
There's a video by sages rain explaining why people can't really be batman. They don the cape and cowl but they cannot really be him.
Bruce throwing money at a corrupt system doesn't help.
Look no further than the Gotham knights game and tell how well it did
Would definitely love to take a look at this video. Please feel free to link me to it!
As for people being Batman, I think there's a lot of evidence to the contrary as well. I'm thinking I'll do a video on Batman White Knight (The Comic Trilogy series), which is actually one of the best and unique Batman stories in years
I don't know that I think Gotham Knights is a straight example, though.
The plot is "Batman's dead, for real. Now what?", yes. The answer isn't "who's Batman now?", though. It's about the heroes who were his students teaming up to protect Gotham City now that Batman's gone. Nobody tries to become a new Batman, they stay the superheroes they already were.
Most people I've discussed the game with who weren't flat-out making fun of it thought the plot was actually pretty good. It's that the experience of driving around, fighting faceless enemies, going to the same places over and over again, got old fast. That was my main problem with Gotham Knights too.
@@hardresetoThe Batman 2022 show that give money to a corrupt city cause the death of the Waynes.
The problem is not that Spiderman or Batman are broken it is that we over analyze superhero comic books today. Comic books were created to make money and be FUN to read. It was media designed for kids to have fun reading in large part to get away from the dreary and sad world of the The Great Depression. What has happen the kids who read comic books grew up and want more logical and adult themed stories. In my opinion adults have ruined comic books. The more sophisticated they become, just sucks all the fun out of them. Sadly maybe the time of the Superhero genre is over. Like I have been saying for along time I did out not grow comic books they have out grew me.
I think we can agree to disagree here. I've been reading comics from a young age, and while it was certainly true in the Golden and Silver Age of comics, Batman and Spiderman from the begining, have been more adult and teen themed, and then progressively gotten darker and more adult, before the reset buttons were hit.
I'm not sure Modern Batman or Spiderman Comics are for kids, nor some of their best storylines and runs (some of which I mention in the video). Heck stuff from Scott Snyder is downright horror esque at times. And Spiderman? The whole stuff with Mary Jane and One More day, I just don't see really young kids getting all that stuff.
There are certainly comics aimed towards kids, and maybe some certain series or books for Batman and Spiderman are as well, but predominantly, I feel like both characters have always had an adult themed edge to them, in all their media.
The characters do lose their appeal if there is someone else behind the mask Peter Parker is spider man and Bruce Wayne is Batman that’s what it is spider man is not a mantle spider man is an alter ego a projection of Peter Parker and Batman is a suit than can be worn by others but it can never be same because Batman comes from Bruce losing his parents in an alley that can never be replaced. To take that away and put other people behind the mask all for the sake of wanting the characters to change is wrong the characters are who they are and should be until they die
I mean, That's a valid take. Personally I'm fine with Spiderman and Batman ending with Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker, and new different heroes rising to fill the void. I honestly, think either version is fine. Is there a new Batman or Spiderman that comes out after the originals die, or is there a new hero entirely. In either case, I think the important thing is for Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker to get their endings and resolve their stories
@@hardreseto Yeah That’s why I don’t like legacy characters one thing they did right with Dick Grayson is making him Nightwing his own hero instead of the next batman it’s original like what I live about superheroes is everyone has their own gimmick
I am not sure I agree. The Batman was very good, Batman animated films are generally good, and there have been so many good runs in Batman over the last decade that a few bad Zach Snyder movies and a feature in a bad Suicide Squad game don't add up to a structural problem. As for Spider-man, the book has been far more hit or miss since the Superior Spider-man run, but the films are generally the most popular and well liked in the MCU, nevermind the hugely popular Miles Morales (which is both animated and a film), and the games are excellent. Marvel generally doesn't make particularly good animated series--that is my take--but as you noted there is a correspondence between enjoyment and when you were a kid. I am 36, so like you I have fond memories of the 98' show, but that isn't concrete. What you describe is just the effect of an old medium that is subject to cycles. Comic books use a range of writers who leave and comeback, succeed or fail, but must necessarily bring completion to their story. As this media accrues there is no doubt that content becomes more and more retread. But these characters continue to produce excellent stories. I don't read Spider-man comics closely, but between Scott Snyder, Tom King, Grant Morrison, Sean Murphy, Mattson Tomlin, Ram V, Geoff Johns, Mark Waid, and Chip Zdarsky's fantastic run I am not sure how anyone can say that Batman comics haven't been good. There are a lot of them, but they also get the best writers that DC has to offer.
I think we agree on a lot of things. I think the future is a bit uncertain with The Batman (as I said in the video, its been two years and we haven't heard anything of a follow up), and I do wonder if it'll get sidelined for James Gunn's "Brave and the Bold".
I agree with you that Marvel isn't the best at making animated work, but I do think the recent Batman animated films were a bit hit or miss. I like Long Halloween, But Hush was really bad in how it changed the central story, and a lot of the Tomorrow verse stuff has been a bit subpar for me. I'm glad you enjoyed that stuff.
No disagreements on Miles and the Spiderverse, though I have quite a few issues with the story telling of Marvel's Spiderman 2 (The latest insomniac developed title). I have a plan to cover all of that in a future video, so maybe we can continue that discussion there.
As for Batman and the comics, I'll agree with you with regards to Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison, but the others are a bit hit or miss for me. Tom King's run and the whole Catwoman Wedding arc was rough, and I think Geoff Johns uses Batman great alongside other DC Characters (aka with the Flash, Justice League e.t.c.). And I wasn't a huge fan of the whole FailSafe thing that Chip Zdarsky did either.
Going back farther, I feel like beyond Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder, there's not a lot of new or interesting ideas that haven't been done before. That said, different things appeal to different people, so I'm glad to hear from you and your take. Thanks for engaging in the discussion! :)
Couldn’t disagree more but I still found the video very well done and entertaining
Totally fair on the disagreement bit. Glad you still enjoyed the video though! Thank you! :)
@@hardreseto WOW! I’m flattered you took the time to reply to me! You earned a sub and I’ll tell my friends where to find some great content!
Here's the thing
In Japanese comics each character is part of a larger continuous story and often act as a piece in the Puzzle. That offers a lot more time and a necessity to give these characters more depth explore them a bit deeper and delve into their motives or actions
Spiderman and Batman or more or less diffrent iterations of the same character and the same group of Villains
Not saying its wrong in any way
But there are many different versions of Spider-Man encountering the green Goblin or Batman facing the joker but the story and the character's stay largely the same
I think its time to give new intresting villains side characters find unique ways to push these heroes to their limits
Long story short there are many versions of Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker but in most cases
There's only one Goku only one Naruto who has their own self contained continuous story
I think you really hit on something interesting, which is villains. That can be another video in itself, but both Spiderman and Batman have had a mostly static cast of support characters and antagonists.
I think you don't understand Batman.
And i will explain this to you on why you don't.
Spider-Man is about to grow and be a man that why his story should end
Batman is about a man becoming a creature without rejecting his humanity (Bruce Wayne) so he is not a normal human being, he is the Batman a Bat (creature) and a Man (Bruce Wayne) but not like Spider-Man where it's more of a gimmick with spider-like powers but more in a spirituel way and symbolic way, his ego (Batman) is a representation of himself in a powerfull and in a eternity way but also in a complete way, it's a never ending battle and a never ending war because Bruce love being a hero he enjoy being Batman (himself).
His lore, Gotham, his villains is a reflection but also a dream his imaginations taking place in a real life, Batman lore is a wonder land
He is a child in a adult form who didn't experiance a good childhood, that why he is Batgod that why he is a fantastical character. Spider-Man is created to reflect what is a real life with pain and growing up and change, Batman is created to reflect a imaginary world and a impossible world. He is not a street level character or a super hero but a pulpy character who fit in many genre he is a never ending character like Superman
The reason on why Batman recent stories doesn't work is because current writers don't know how to use him and his lore perfectly, character assassination moments ect Batman don't have the same problems like Spider-Man.
Batman as a character is eternity
Spider-Man as a character is about growing up and ends
I think you don't understand Batman and his lore you're right on Spider-Man but not on Batman and comics in general
Good video but bad takes and lack of understanding on some parts.
Hrm... There's certainly a lot to unpack here. I think a lot of what you mention regarding Batman is more around the core concept of what Batman is, and what's meant to serve as. A symbol, a deterrent, and something larger than life. That's what Bruce Wayne is intending to do, when he creates the moniker of Batman. But as you yourself pointed out, Batman as an idea, as an entity, exists beyond a single human being, and that's why I think the mantle of Batman can change with time, and its not tied to Bruce himself.
The other important part about Batman and Bruce Wayne, is that while he may be creating this image, this legend even of this creature of the night, Batman is, at the end of the day, a human being. That's what makes him so interesting, and I'd argue that he's NOT at all like Superman, who is more "inhuman" and beyond human thanks to his powers and abilities.
As I mentioned in the video, a big part of the appeal of Batman is that, despite his riches, knowledge and skills, he is still at the end of the day, a human being, and he represents the pinnacle of what a human being can achieve, given the right resources.
Batman as an idea, as a symbol, as a concept can be eternal, but I disagree that Batman as a character is that way.
Look, I appreciate the insight and the comment, and I'm not going to say that you don't understand Batman, and that I do, because at the end of the day, Batman can be interpreted in different ways. As a fictional character, I don't think there IS such a thing as a "correct" understanding, only interpretations and what you get out of him.
I'll agree with you, the goal of these. publishers are to keep their characters perpetually young in their prime so they can keep the comics on the shelf indefinitely. That is the main reason I fell off capes in tights stories, simply they are cyclical without any development in characters.
what do you think of the idea that marvel/dc adopt a manga style storytelling technique instead of the current cyclical arrested development model? I am looking at you Peter Parker!
so for example, writer x will take control of batman for a few years. He tells the story of bruce's life span from beginning to his retirement or ultimate sacrifice. another writer, y, comes in with a pitch focusing on his early years, his training and taking down crime and corruption in Gotham.
a decade or so later, writer z comes in with another take, maybe tweaking his echo-system. think absolute batman.
this model would be similar to the movies. you have the Burten , Schumacher, Nolan and Reeves flavors to choose from.
I ask this because I am getting sick of the whole "sliding time scale continuity", where you can't really get a meaningful resolution to the story or have actual change to the status quo while also constrained by an inconsequential fictitious continuity that gives the illusion of change and development.
I think you really nail the problem here with regards to continuity and change. I think there's a lot western comics can learn from Manga and its success in recent years, and one of those is change and adjustment over time.
I mean, you can even look at something like Moriarty the Patriot and how they take a classic established literary character like Moriarty, make him the protagonist of the story rather than Sherlock Holmes and really come out with a new story from an entirely different perspective. Its fresh, unique and original.
Comics do this SOMETIMES, Batman White Knight is an excellent example, but its always side stuff and never the main continuity.
And I think change and permanent status quo changes are necessary for events in stories to matter, and for them to resonant.
Great insights! Thank you for the comment!
I get what you saying cuz I agree I think it is time for Batman and Spider-Man to be moved past something like it's kind of crazy because you hear how you can't replace Batman or Spider-Man like out of all the characters you can't replace them at all and if you bring up miles or Terry McGinnis a lot of people get upset because they're like no you're trying to replace them because you want this young hip diverse person that take over the role for Batman and Spider-Man but it's just like they've done everything with these characters so either transition them and to do something else like Superman Superman was able to marry Lois Lane and then eventually they had kids Batman need to eventually be able to do something besides being the loner with another adoptive kid being his sidekick you know he need to either get married or you know let Dick Grayson take over or something like that or at least you know do what DC was trying to do before the new 52 I believe was where Dick Grayson was going to be Batman for Gotham City and then Batman was going to travel around the world and be more of a mentor to other people who was inspired by the Batman metals That could be something interesting with Spider-Man you like you said get get him to get married with Mary Jane have his kids and have him be less Spider-Man more Peter Parker while mentoring you know miles Morales and or Ben Riley That sounds really good but you know again a lot of people nowadays especially with the way comics are are afraid that those characters like Miles like Terry like Ben like even Nick Grayson are there to replace the classic character because the comic book industry want these characters to be more diverse and it's just like not really like there are certain characters like you know when they did try to bring in black Batman for future state or I think Marvel was trying to like get rid of Peter Parker and replace them for his clone The way they went about it didn't work in current today's generation but I believe that if they had a good story set up they could have easily told a good story
Yeah I agree on the execution aspect. Clone Saga was just a mess (even if I personally liked Ben Reily a lot) and Future State was... weird. I don't mind a black batman, but it has to make sense, like you said Dick Grayson, Terry McGinnis and even Damian Wayne have all been good executions of the "Next Batman" idea. I'd say Miles is also pretty darn solid.
I do remember reacting a bit oddly to Miles when he was first revealed, but I'd say Bendis really brought the character into his own, and the execution was really good. Miles struggling to fill in the void left behind by Peter Parker is So central to the character. Its why the Spiderverse movies kept that piece of his character in tact.
Well I thought that Spider-Man is the most broken because marvel comics doesn’t want him to grow up and just do the same thing like he has some Peter Pan Syndrome.
Well I think its the same issue as with Batman, they just rebooting him back to being in his 20s :D
Taking two characters that not only remain important after all these years but also have boom in their popularity every few years and stating they are in decline. No, they are not, just because some of the stuff that is coming out right now is hit or miss that doesn't change the fact that it's ALWAYS been like this. You talk about a character whose animated film just got showered with awards, you talk about batman who is now so popular there is multiple movies starring this character being made almost all at once and you talk about decline? Maybe it's just your nostalgia speaking, you remember the good stuff and forget about all the trash that came with it. Don't even let me begin what was the state of comic book characters in the 90s and 00s. It's literally the same now, just on a bigger scale. They are doing fine, maybe even better than ever, I disagree with the point of this video completely.
I mean, that's a fair take. We both have the same sets of data, so different interpretations are fine. I personally had a different read for Comics in the 90s and Early 2000s, but hey, we can agree to disagree there. I'm also one of the weird people that kinda liked bits of the Clone Saga and what not, so I'm not going to say I always align with the majority.
That said, to me, things do feel like they're in decline, and I also feel like Bruce and Peter are pretty overdone at this point. Are Batman and Spiderman doing fine? Sure. Are they where they were at their peak (Popular animated series, movies and games?), I don't believe so.
Thanks for the comment though, I appreciate the different perspective :)