As a kid, I assumed trample damage meant the enemy units would take damage when cataphrats would be moving next to them (being trampled by moving horses). I would make my army run through the enemy army and never noticed it wasn’t doing anything
Me too! I always thought the upgrade wasn't working because I noticed it didn't do any damage when "charging" agains enemy unit (AKA just passing by them).
It's good to know that in castle age, even with the cataphract's special armour, cannon galleons still does some bonus damage to them. Next time I play against the Byzantines, I'll know exactly how to handle their cataphracts
I remember as a kid playing either Byzantine or Teutons and having an AI ally play the other and was like, yes I am unbeatable. Fast forward 10 years and I was playing Byz and facing a real person rather than the AI and he went Britains and longbows decimated my Cataphracts :(
Scouts or skirms should very cost effectively mess up briton longbows the former because you already tech into them when going cataphracts, and, while squishy, light cavalry is generally very good at chasing down archers The latter because not only are they the designated counter, they're also cheaper as byzantines
There's a video of a former chessmaster who said he HATES chess. Why? Because it's all about predetermined countering and reactions once the first moves are made, making everything predictable. The same can be said about games where players care more about winning than fun, so they do what is most predictable.
Tbh, if u blindly go for catas while giving ur opponent the time to farm up for 3+ castles and decently upgraded longbow production and then lose despite having access to a civ bonus supported counter unit, then u probably deserve the L
@@scintillam_dei usually someone takes the initiative and the other person counters. The problem comes when both sides want to be the counterer and not the initiator. That's when scout wars start happening
As you said once in the Byzantines overview, "I'd have to go with an army of Cataphracts over an army of Paladins" The other speciality of Cataphracts is that you really need to make Powerful units for beating Cataphracts that would cost gold, unlike the Paladins that needs two Halberdiers to beat that
Other than cost and massing, it's the rest of the tech tree that dooms Cataphracts to nichedom. For a number of civilisations a Spear line resistant cavalry unit would be pretty incredible... Except the Byzantines have FU arbalests, Hand Cannons, and discounted skirmishers to help handle them. And while yes, you do need something like heavy cavalry (or mass archers) to handle Cataphracts... Given the lack of Blast Furnace *and* Bloodlines, for most civilisations that's just fully upgraded cavaliers, which are almost always a good choice unless there are counter units involved. And sure, the Byzantines have heavy camels, but now you're paying for two expensive cavalry upgrades against an opponent who only needed one cheap one. In theory they're great, but in practice there are usually viable alternatives to countering pikes, while the "powerful units" required to counter them are pretty standard for most civs. And that's a shame.
One thing you forgot to mention is what happens when a poor guy tries to cram all his arbalests in towards a woodline against post-imp Elite Catas. The you'll see that the standard way of dealing with cavalery is literally the worst way of dealing with cataphracts. They will kill a 30 arbalest army in 8 hits total :). While arbalests are a good counter to cataphracts, it is best done with "spread" formation. The trample damge can more than make up for the disadvantage in pure stats.
I'm trying to think about what can anyone do against Catas + Elite Skirms? It counters all archers, infantry, and siege. You can try heavy mounted units, but then, Byz can make a few Camels and ruin your day. Massed fully upgraded Aztec monks, maybe? But that requires so much micro. I guess if you ever get to a point where Byz have castles, access to gold, and full upgrades, you've lost, lol.
@@mbvglider don't let them get to that stage. Treb down their castles in early imp. The problem is that bizantines can deal with that by doing the exact same.
@@mbvglider pala + skirm. Pala is pretty resilient to camels because they are simply powerful, and skirms can deal pretty ok with camels if you have enough. Alternatively arbs + siege. Going in with catas on siege would be pretty costly against a arbs ball, and they can also easily be flattened by SO.
@@mbvglider if you have resource for elite cataphract and can easily add heavy camels too, then opponent can field paladins + siege onagers and decimate you. In real game, if you're going cataphracts, you won't have heavy camels. Also camels get destroyed by heavy cavalry if they are at upgrade/number disadvantage. Something like cavalry + arb would also win vs cata + skirm because cavalry is the one taking damage first, not ranged units. So catas die to arbs while your skirms do nothing vs opposing cavalry. After a while you are left with skirms only while opponent still has arbs + cav. So they murder skirms with cav while arbs go kill other part of the map.
@@mbvglider - It depends on your micro and formations. As long as you can hit the Cataphracts first with heavy cavalry or archer fire before their second set of units tries to balance things out, you’ll gain the advantage. Be careful not to play into their defensive hands or let them boom. Otherwise, you’ll be in deep trouble thanks to their discounted Imperial.
I think something key that's being missed here is how does a Cataphract line do against an equal resource group of Arbalest? The advantages of the Paladin might not be so much if the Cataphract can kill the Arbalists more quickly with the trample damage.
Id say many of them would die long before they can do serious dmg to arbalesters, unlike paladin. Also late game archer blob is very big, so cataphract would die even faster (easier one shot) than paladin. So it’s not really worth investigating into.
@@mbvglider In that case, you just run and find a way to get the cats to regain the advantage, or bide time to create skirmishers. It's not as lopsided as one believes.
Except if the arbalest player micros, you cant really get that trample damage to work to its full effect. They'll be firing then backing away over and over and you cant take full advantage of the trample damage
As a byzantine player I've been waiting for this video forever! The cataphract to me is such a good unit because it fits the byzantines defensive and counter playstyle so well. It's the king of counters, the anti counter counter. When you go trash, your opponent goes champ, and then you go cataphract.
That's why I like Byzantines so much. I always saw them as the "Counter-Civ", because it has the best combination of counterunits in the game. And Cataphracts add so much to that up. I only wish they would get either the last blacksmith upgrade or bloodlines. They would be so much stronger.
What wouldnt I give for Bloodlines... I'd gladly trade away the Paladin upgrade for it. Possibly even taking away the Cavalier for Blast Furnace. Allowing Byzantines still to go with fast castle into Knights early on before transitioning into Cataphracts. I dont think the archer weakness is super insurmountable given the fact that Byzantines have cheap Skirmishers (And Halbs for that matter) and have a generally open enough tech tree to counter stuff..
@@08vinster It annoys me to no end. It's almost like they were given the Paladin just to screw the Cataphract over. Instead of having one good (but not OP) heavy cavalry option they have two mediocre ones. That being said I dont think the Cataphract itself needs any base statistical changes. Hell I might even consider reversing one of the cost reductions the elite upgrade or Logistica since you no longer need to consider teching into Paladins.
Byzantines would be ridiculously OP with Bloodlines. They are already an extremely well-performing civ in tournaments and don't have any bad matchups aside from vs Sicilians.
@@Tocaraca I'm not so sure. Maybe it depends on the map? But I hate the idea of the civs being balanced around tournament use. AoE2Stats puts Byzantines at 46.1% winrate. True Bloodlines is a powerful tech but I refuse to believe it and Blast Furnace would be enough to rocket them to the top. A fully upgraded Paladin will still have 2 more attack, 2 more Pierce Armor and more critically 10 more HP over the Cataphract (This is in the theoretical case that Byzantines also have Bloodlines and Blast Furnace). Not to mention Cataphracts require a castle to be created and are expensive to tech into and create.
@@niki75 Are you forgetting that Bloodlines would apply to their Camels? Their camel spam is already ridiculous. If you had Bloodlines, forget Catas, just spam Camels and trash units.
Still remember the old times when seeing Byzantine I was like this civs is damn OP, but now looking at Byzantine realized they have the upgrades missing here and there... Still love the Cataphracts though 🤩
Reduction of damage from the cannon galeons is probably the biggest advantage over the knight line, especially in dark age. 8:20 Paladins with Logistica... Franks wet dream.
I think that the Byz Cataphract is one of the best examples of a well designed UU. Isnt ubiquitous in how strong it is, but covers a niche, ie vs meso civs (countering eagle spam) or vs Goths (countering Huscarl spam) vs other civs who are going knights, you really want to go into your own camels/pikes, since you get the discount and miss some techs (bloodlines, BF in imp), if they are spamming pikes, just go into E skirms instead of Cataphracts (again, discount + you conserve res as a ranged counter) So they have their purpose in countering what Byz might be weak to (as byz generally play into arb/skirm/halb) but also aren't so overbearing that you always want to go for Catas
It's the way UU should be. It's probably why even though this is one of the least used ones is a fan favorite. I've had a lot of discussions with friends over why a civ like Franks get Throwing axemen who are underwhelming compared to their real option but at the end of the day, it's a surprisingly useful UU to cover the civs weakness but also isn't the whole identity. Like how Rattan archers aren't actually stronger than Arbs against opponents that aren't going ranged units or how Bezerks lose the competition of strenght against champions but shines in flexibility, raiding and anti-archer/cavalry roles with it's unique upgrades. Most unique units are really good and interesting but there are some that overshine anything else the civ can do, sadly. I struggle not making Boyars as an example, they're just a straight upgrade. EDIT: I find it funny how i used Rattan archer as an example but forgot that they overshadow Imp skirms, i think its a crying shame they're in the same faction as they both do a similar job, the other is just a straight upgrade but costs gold. That extra damage is so useful against infantry or light cav that Imp skirms seems like a strange choice as they still lose in situations the Rattan archer wont. Also a fun story i encountered on an arena map with Vietnamese, monks are a straight counter to rattans as any converted archers take 40+ arrows to kill, i found out the hard way how badly a unit that counters itself can backfire against monks.
Small mistake at 8:22 where you said 'paladin' and meant to say 'cataphract'. Great video though! Cataphract have always been one of my favorite units in the game because of their hidden armor and trample damage.
Wasn't the AoE2 meta based around cavalry and archers for a long time? Both of which the Byzantine knight line perform better against; I can see why the cataphract would end up not getting a lot of use in competitive play.
I think the supposed "weakness" to archers is a bit overstated in imperial age. Once trample damage comes in, yes they still die significantly faster than paladins, but they also deal vastly superior damage to archer masses that wedge themselves into corners or tend to stack when they are kiting.
Fully upgraded cata have a moral debuff on opponents going infantry. Nothing says I'm drowning in gold like elite cata+logistica (apart from a horde of war ele) On a completely unrelated note, I think the longevity of videos will increase if higher res options are also available. I sooo want to watch it on 2K or 4K, given most of SOTL content is leisure watching. Totally understandable if the effort is not worth it though. But I truly believe having at least 2K option would be a decent upgrade.
I really love Cataphracts. However: I feel like they are both amazing and very frustrating to play because they are so expensive and losing them hurts :(
I love Cataphracts but unfortunately there's not much use in Castle Age for a unit that's less effective against the 2 most popular unit in that age (Knights and Crossbows). Maybe if you go against a camel civ, but again, you have cheap Pikes to defend yourself. Trample Damage in imperial makes them more useful but is such an expensive tech.
I think it's all about how it integrates into their gameplay. As you mentioned, Castle Age is all about Knights and Crossbows. If you have the initiative, then you'll make your own, and forget about Cataphracts. However, if you're playing defensively, you'll probably be making Skirms, Pikes, or Camels to counter those units, and then trying to build a defensive Castle. A mass of counter units won't give you a way to turn your defense into offense, especially when your opponent makes their own Skirms and Pikes. That's when a few Catas can turn things around. I think they're a terrible unit to try to mass behind a Fast Castle start.
I always used Cataphracts as second step. Enemy is using knights? Throw cheap pikes at them and then few Catas since it is good chance they will counter or match whatever enemy will use to counter pikes.
With so many problems in my life, this is what I really need. Someone who tells me how good are Cataphracts. I sincerely hope the answer is "very good", this is what my soul needs right now. Now I will listen to the video.
Should have looked at byzantine camels as well, as they are a common mounted unit for byzantines and also Fight spearmen/pikemen sometimes. Yes Knights are closer to catas, but bizantines have no bloodlines, but have very good camels thanks to their discount
@@carnivoriousleaf I think if you're making Catas, since massing takes time, it's worth making a few Camel Riders to fill up your ranks, since you're already researching cavalry upgrades and need a Stable for Husbandry anyway. And as the game goes late, it's nice to have the Stables up for Hussar switch.
@@mbvglider basic Camels die horribly to Pikemen or Crossbows already and even lose against Knights if there's upgrade/numbers difference. Heavy Camel upgrade is pretty costly and long to research. Adding Camels will result in not having resources for Cataphracts.
8:20 "Fully upgraded *PALADINS* with logistica...." Minor mistake there Spirit. But can you imagine that though? Paladins who do trample damage? AND +10 vs infantry? Hot damn
the thing about Cataphract is that most of the time you dont even need to use them, they serve as this boogeyman that scare your opponent away from ever touching the MAA line - which allow you to make the most out of your superior trash units.
This is gonna make me a lot more confident using them even if I don't have Logistica in yet, I didn't realise their base bonuses continued to be that powerful against imp units. Thanks!
Thanks for another informative vid! Would you consider adding a summative graphic at the end to show the pros/cons of the vid subject? There’s so much information it might be easier to take in then solely a verbal explanation given the soundtrack underneath.
I still hope for varangian guard and a kind of technolgy that let you use other unique units. Byzantines should have stronger cav archers too, historically used with cataphracts...
Yes, I also think that the Byzantines need another unique unit, such as the Varangian guard, or that they give them blood lines, or that they reduce the cost of either logistics or the elite cataphracts
@@Aioradeleo27 maybe logistics could work as a replacement for bloodlines too, since its cost... it could give also a bonus to cataphracts and cav archers, in order to use them more (i would suggest also a gold reduction for this two units).
@@Aioradeleo27 I propose this: - varangian guard as second unique unit, strong infantry (don't know which bonus is better), only in imperial age; - cataphracts have trample damage without any tech; - logistics gives a hp bonus (or something similar) to cata and cav archer and also reduce their cost in gold by 20% (it should represent the raise of cataphracts in X and first half of XI century); - another tech should give you opportunity to use other players unique units.
/commenting before fully watching/ Cataphract feels like the kind of unit you'd build when you're not aware on what enemy had gone for this time and so can't decide how to prepare a counter yet. Which doesn't synergy that well with its cost and timeline.
I have heard that an army composed of Elite Cataphracts, Paladins and Heavy Camel Riders would be almost unstoppable in direct combat against other units. Paladins are tanks, specially against archers. Camel Riders are essentially mounted Halbediers designed to counter other cavalry armies, the greatest direct menace in the battlefield to this kind of army. And Cataprathcs are like that video-game boss which have an special attack that combined with their standard movements can easily cripple even the largest of groups, specially infantry.
Would have liked seeing comparison to certain edge-case enemy units, like Catas vs. Gurjara normal camels (which have some bonus damage go through) and Catas vs. Japanese Pikes/Halbs (do they still counter them?)
Japanese halbs do not counter them, I think he covered this in an earlier video. They get pretty destroyed. Samurai get stomped as well from memory. Gurjara normal camels... Now that does sound interesting!
I'd like to point out that there is a small issue within game right now, that for some reason in these kinds of tests makes knight/cavalier/paladin not deal the first hit and makes their attack animation - aswell as attack itself - reset. In this video it's most visible when knight/paladin engages spearline in 1v1 combat. You can see how the knight freezes when hes mid-swing and resets the attack animation not dealing the first blow. Despite the fact that knight line should be dishing out Third attack while spear-line should be starting animation for a second hit. IE. Knight has 1.8 attack speed - Whereas spearline has 3.0
I love cataphracts, they tough enough, but en masse they become almost unstoppable. I've been able to hold off about 2 (and a half) players on black forest as the trample damage of cataphracts just demolished anything that came through. Such a good unit.
I think it is a shame we don’t see a lot of UU. Makes the game mundane sometimes. They should consider offering all UU an upgrade to create them from their respective military building.
The problem there is that a lot of UUs, to my understanding, are partially balanced by that difficulty of creation. It'd also be a HUGE mechanical change that would disrupt the meta completely.
@@robertlewis6915 yes. one of gthe main reasons why balnving in aoe2 is OK despite having so many civs is that in many ways the civs aren't completely different. the more you increase the uniqueness, the harder it is to balance. it's a trade off
They would break the entire game.Imagine massing war wagons or Letitis or konniks or mangudai at stables or archery ranges.Now THAT is something that would ACTUALLY be OP
The trouble with cataphracts is that the archer and knight lines are the most common meta builds for almost every civilization. Countering camels and trash units really isn't a very valuable niche to fill, byzantine spears and skirmishers already do that quite well without costing gold or needing a castle, as you mentioned at the start.
In a vacuum I think it is really weird to have a knight-type unit that counters knights' counters. But it made a lot more sense when you pointed out that Byzantines get discounts for cataphracts' counters! I'd really like to see some matches between Byzantines and Goths now...
You forgot that you get to shout “Roma victor” like Russel Crowe when you’re running through the Goth spam. Which has a decisive boost on morale and enjoyment.
It’s interesting the knight line is something you try and counter But if you try that with cataphracts your going to get walked over instead you have to overwhelm them And bc you can mix them you can actually have some nasty surprise cataphract mines in a knight rush to walk any spears the opponent builds
One thing I hate so much on AoE2 is its lack of transparency. You need to search the Internet to find all these hidden bonus armor etc., not mentioning that obvious bonus damage which can range from 1 to 30...
The question with the Byzantines is whether to bother with cavalry to begin with or not. Seeing as they lack some very crucial upgrades for their cavalry, including the all important bloodlines, going for any cavalry unit as the Byzantines is a questionable choice. So comparing Cataphracts to Paladins seem rather pointless as that's not the real question. Imho as Byzantines the only cavalry unit worth bothering with at all is the Cataphract. You either need it as a fast unit and anti infantry unit or you don't, I'd never bother with the knight line, especially in imperial, as it's just too weak compared to the alternatives. Heck most nations' cavaliers beat Byzantine Paladins due to far superior upgrades and of course bloodlines. So even without counter units you can just match them cavalier to paladin and win. That's really not the position you want to be at.
When I was a Kid (never got the AoC expansion till HD released), Cataphracts and Light Cav were always my favourite Units, mainly because they're baller enough to carry the additional weight of a shield on their back just to flex on their enemies.
Funny how he mentions japanese halbs as having the decent ability against cataphracts. I have heard late game this is also true for goths with 33% cheaper infrantry while not a counter it is far more valuable to retain gold than food and wood.
Your videos are what brought me to AoE. I now play AoE4, and would love if you could do some videos on that. Age of Noob does research style videos on AoE4 already, but some Spirit of the Law secret sauce is missing, and I would gladly welcome any videos you would decide to make on AoE4!
Cataphracts are a good trash killer unit but it's usually hard to justify their cost against crossbows or knights which are most commonly seen in castle age and early imperial
Something touched on in but I suspect is worth more exploration is how skirmishers and halbs (as needed) complement the cataphract weakness quite well. If the opponent is massing heavy cav, there's no real way to engage a byz player's cataphracts as any engagement will allow Halbs (or even camels if you have the gold) to fight. If the opponent wants to use archers, the Byzantines get FU cheap elite skirms.
No mention of cataphract vs mamluke? Despite negating cavalry bonus damage, Mamlukes and cavalry archers can hit and run cataphracts forcing byzantines to rely on other tactics such as their cheaper but still cost gold heavy camels who suffer bonus damage but simply have some speed on their side but sarecens counter with their own high hp heavy camels... That nerf of skirmishers vs mamlukes is once again making the mamluke king of the battlefield and only elite teutonic knight can deal with them castle age teutonic knights will get taken out by mamlukes.
Ah, yes, Mamluke, the single most expensive non-elephant ground unit. It's in an arguably worse situation than the Cataphract in terms of money needed to get to them. So, you're saying that this unit, which is _particularly_ hard to mass, beats Catas? I mean...yeah, but can't Byzantines just go Camel by Camel all the way and crush yer picky bois? As for bonus damage, you could include Genoese Crossbows and Flemish Militia as well
My Army Composition usually is: Front Line is a Halberdier + Elite Skirmishers combo. Usually have locally built barracks and archery ranges to resupply on automatic. Elite Hussars as my primary Cavalry for Archers, Priests and Suicide troops against Siege. Bombard Cannons as my primary siege unit. Mobile and good against single target. Cataphracts as a special forces unit. Nuke Town Centers or mop up large swarms of infantry that hurt my front line or cavalry.
Imagine how terrifying Cataphracts would be if they were properly microed by an AI. Two hits on a halberdier and then on to the next while trample damage finishes the first one of
Well you get the same effect if you have two Cataphracts, they both hit their halberd twice and they die due to trample. There is no need to switch targets most of the time because chances are, most enemy units will suffer atleast one hit of trample damage in a medium to large fight. So in the end, probably not that much more terrifying than they already are.
@@Progeusz Does switching targets take that much time? Because the halb dies in three hits either way, only that one of these hits can be on the unit next to him.
Seems to me like a Byzantium player should keep some cataphracts in reserve and use the knight line to force his opponent to focus on anti-cavalry units. Then after your opponent has committed to anti-cavalry, bring in the cataphracts to punch through their defenses. In other words, cataphracts are shock troops.
Man every time i look at age of empirs 2 video i remeber age if empires 1 which i loved way more and i still do regarldless of it's balancing. I loved how the units in age of empires 1 felt were so unique and EVEN exquisite like the roman armoured long sword unit.
No wonder why camel-based civs are recommended against them. Although, I'd like to see how they fair against Genoese Crossbowmen (even at elite). Also in accordance with historical records about war, horses hate the smell of camels. Sort of an advantage against horseback-riding units.
I think the most decisive factor for me to opt for the Knight line is the extra pierce armor. The fact that Cataphracts have lower pierce armor makes them way too vulnerable to archer attacks. An expensive cavalry unit is supposed to be a front line damage soaker, especially to archer fire.
Still theyre fast enough to pick fights and trample damage can be really good against bunched up archer groups. Catas with more pierce armor would just be too OP
What is interesting, is that fact Catas are make from Castle actually help Byz against strong Camel Civs, because they can spam their cheap Camels and sneak few Catas for saved resources and flip the fight.
I'm not a pro AOE 2 player, but as a kid I have a funny memory about Cataphracts. For the Manzikert campaign, I wondered what would be the most efficient way to deal with those Cataphracts at the start, I would always send out my pikemen or Camels and they would get slaughtered. I wondered why and then resigned to "If you can't beat em join em" strategy and sent out Knights and to my surprise it worked :D
Not only are they cheaper to upgrade due to buffs, but they also have improved their style. They know how to work with a budget even if it’s still a pricey one.
They need a Buff either blast furnace or bloodlines then people would use them. They take to long to max and just so weak. I love them but knights are easier to mass produce. Until they make more changes to them.
It might be worth adding an addendum to this Video since the introduction of West Romans the Legionary with Charge Damage might overpower the Anti-Infantry power of the Cataphract.
It's quite debatable when cataphracts are quite strong against top tier infantry civs like Goths (numbers advantage), salves (trample damage) and Dravidians (armour negating). That may be interesting topic. For cavs it is interesting to use as Franks, berners, sarcens. I argue Italian geniese crossbow is perfect counter imo
I feel like in a mass the cataphracts will even out with paladins vs arbs with the trample damage once they actually get in melee , and things like hiding in a choke won't help them near as much.
Logistica is still too expensive in my option. 800 food , 600 gold. Either reduce the cost further and give them bloodlines. Just my option as it's too much to invest
@@Elmer90 Could easily be reduced 20-35% imo. It's strong, but not that strong, considering they only become really useful with logistica. With logistica, they can even contend with archers, although slightly ineffective if they are microed well. They fun part is that small numbers of arbalests are countered by a small(er) number of paladins, while a big ball of arbalest will be able to contest a big ball of paladins. For Cataphracts, it's more like: small numbers (
I think the Arbalest vs Cataphract/Paladin comparison forgets a crucial detail. While there is definitely a good transition period for arbalests to get ahead of the Elite Cat/Pal upgrade in early Imperial age, in a real game you have to have units screening for the Arbalests, such as Pikes, Knights, or Camels, but infantry will melt to cataphracts. I think an overlooked combo is getting a couple of cataphracts out to back up knights in late castle age, just after a player buys pikes. Great way to surprise a player over investing into infantry.
So the ideal combo is to give your cataphracts monk protection for healing and converting threats as well as additional anti archer unit (skirmishers or siege weapons or even light cavalry depending on the threat). Anyway, always back up your units with monks if you can, they are so helpful.
in late game wars if you have relics an your oponent not, you can quietly transition into that mb, the pretty tough because if you give the oportunity for your oponent to remake an harbalest ball you imho can to easily loose the value war. Also mb as a small ball in castle age from a castle, some upgrade to clean bully group of pikes and squirmishers, it will survive and probably will be able to harass some siege back but it's situationnal.
Gotta wonder how Gurjaras deal with Cataphracts. They may deal extra bonus damage with their Camels, but that's still a lot of it being negated. They also don't get the Knight line, don't get Pikemen, and don't get Arbs. I'm thinking their main counter would be Elephant Archers or Monks, though they lack Block Printing. EDIT: The new Byzantine overview showed that Gurjara HC's win with equal resources, thanks to dealing +9 damage (even after their nerf) to Elite Cataphracts and their +4 melee armor tech making the Cataphracts relatively ineffective against them (7 damage per hit).
As a kid, I assumed trample damage meant the enemy units would take damage when cataphrats would be moving next to them (being trampled by moving horses). I would make my army run through the enemy army and never noticed it wasn’t doing anything
nice :)
Same here!
Me too, i never understood what that upgrade fully did...
Me too! I always thought the upgrade wasn't working because I noticed it didn't do any damage when "charging" agains enemy unit (AKA just passing by them).
I did the same haha
It's good to know that in castle age, even with the cataphract's special armour, cannon galleons still does some bonus damage to them. Next time I play against the Byzantines, I'll know exactly how to handle their cataphracts
Plays in Arabia or the black forest.
Bdum tiss
Just build 3 layers of walls and train like 80 bombard cannons
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition
Jokes aside, archers are probably your best bet if you dont have access to Paladins
@@shelldie8523 Finds a 6-tile Oasis
Bdum tiss-tiss -tiss-tiss
I remember as a kid playing either Byzantine or Teutons and having an AI ally play the other and was like, yes I am unbeatable. Fast forward 10 years and I was playing Byz and facing a real person rather than the AI and he went Britains and longbows decimated my Cataphracts :(
Scouts or skirms should very cost effectively mess up briton longbows
the former because you already tech into them when going cataphracts, and, while squishy, light cavalry is generally very good at chasing down archers
The latter because not only are they the designated counter, they're also cheaper as byzantines
Bruh 🪦 just switch to skrim 😭
There's a video of a former chessmaster who said he HATES chess. Why? Because it's all about predetermined countering and reactions once the first moves are made, making everything predictable. The same can be said about games where players care more about winning than fun, so they do what is most predictable.
Tbh, if u blindly go for catas while giving ur opponent the time to farm up for 3+ castles and decently upgraded longbow production and then lose despite having access to a civ bonus supported counter unit, then u probably deserve the L
@@scintillam_dei usually someone takes the initiative and the other person counters. The problem comes when both sides want to be the counterer and not the initiator. That's when scout wars start happening
As you said once in the Byzantines overview, "I'd have to go with an army of Cataphracts over an army of Paladins" The other speciality of Cataphracts is that you really need to make Powerful units for beating Cataphracts that would cost gold, unlike the Paladins that needs two Halberdiers to beat that
The biggest advantage to the Paladin is that Cataphracts look sick as fuuuuck.
@@mbvglider Facts. No other benefit matches this one. Dripness is highly underrated.
Other than cost and massing, it's the rest of the tech tree that dooms Cataphracts to nichedom.
For a number of civilisations a Spear line resistant cavalry unit would be pretty incredible... Except the Byzantines have FU arbalests, Hand Cannons, and discounted skirmishers to help handle them.
And while yes, you do need something like heavy cavalry (or mass archers) to handle Cataphracts... Given the lack of Blast Furnace *and* Bloodlines, for most civilisations that's just fully upgraded cavaliers, which are almost always a good choice unless there are counter units involved. And sure, the Byzantines have heavy camels, but now you're paying for two expensive cavalry upgrades against an opponent who only needed one cheap one.
In theory they're great, but in practice there are usually viable alternatives to countering pikes, while the "powerful units" required to counter them are pretty standard for most civs. And that's a shame.
Certain civs got skirms who can beat this unit in imp. So this is not true
@@MasterGhostf For real. When you see an army of utter dripness marching over the hill, you know shits going down.
When i first saw Cataphracts back in 1999 i fell in love with how they look. To this day, they're my favorite AOE2 unit.
There is a unit called Centurion... Is more beautiful than cathapracts because something in their helmet.
I love them too.
Teutonick knights look way more too good
@@eliecergalvis4191 nothing more iconic than the corinthian style helmet ..
cataphract however gets bonuspoints for being a unique unit
@@aquinalthomas4875capes look nice but they have nothing on the silver warrlords
@@MrTBSC Centurions are now a unique unit too 😂
One thing you forgot to mention is what happens when a poor guy tries to cram all his arbalests in towards a woodline against post-imp Elite Catas. The you'll see that the standard way of dealing with cavalery is literally the worst way of dealing with cataphracts. They will kill a 30 arbalest army in 8 hits total :). While arbalests are a good counter to cataphracts, it is best done with "spread" formation. The trample damge can more than make up for the disadvantage in pure stats.
I'm trying to think about what can anyone do against Catas + Elite Skirms? It counters all archers, infantry, and siege. You can try heavy mounted units, but then, Byz can make a few Camels and ruin your day. Massed fully upgraded Aztec monks, maybe? But that requires so much micro. I guess if you ever get to a point where Byz have castles, access to gold, and full upgrades, you've lost, lol.
@@mbvglider don't let them get to that stage.
Treb down their castles in early imp.
The problem is that bizantines can deal with that by doing the exact same.
@@mbvglider pala + skirm. Pala is pretty resilient to camels because they are simply powerful, and skirms can deal pretty ok with camels if you have enough. Alternatively arbs + siege. Going in with catas on siege would be pretty costly against a arbs ball, and they can also easily be flattened by SO.
@@mbvglider if you have resource for elite cataphract and can easily add heavy camels too, then opponent can field paladins + siege onagers and decimate you.
In real game, if you're going cataphracts, you won't have heavy camels. Also camels get destroyed by heavy cavalry if they are at upgrade/number disadvantage.
Something like cavalry + arb would also win vs cata + skirm because cavalry is the one taking damage first, not ranged units. So catas die to arbs while your skirms do nothing vs opposing cavalry. After a while you are left with skirms only while opponent still has arbs + cav. So they murder skirms with cav while arbs go kill other part of the map.
@@mbvglider - It depends on your micro and formations. As long as you can hit the Cataphracts first with heavy cavalry or archer fire before their second set of units tries to balance things out, you’ll gain the advantage.
Be careful not to play into their defensive hands or let them boom. Otherwise, you’ll be in deep trouble thanks to their discounted Imperial.
I think something key that's being missed here is how does a Cataphract line do against an equal resource group of Arbalest? The advantages of the Paladin might not be so much if the Cataphract can kill the Arbalists more quickly with the trample damage.
Id say many of them would die long before they can do serious dmg to arbalesters, unlike paladin. Also late game archer blob is very big, so cataphract would die even faster (easier one shot) than paladin. So it’s not really worth investigating into.
@@estellebright2579 Unless you do some intensive micro, the cataphracts aren't gonna have a problem reaching arbs.
@@dogg-paws Most people who have a habit of microing arbs will back up to a chokepoint, but if you do that with Catas, you're completely dead, lol.
@@mbvglider In that case, you just run and find a way to get the cats to regain the advantage, or bide time to create skirmishers. It's not as lopsided as one believes.
Except if the arbalest player micros, you cant really get that trample damage to work to its full effect. They'll be firing then backing away over and over and you cant take full advantage of the trample damage
As a byzantine player I've been waiting for this video forever!
The cataphract to me is such a good unit because it fits the byzantines defensive and counter playstyle so well. It's the king of counters, the anti counter counter. When you go trash, your opponent goes champ, and then you go cataphract.
it's a bit op in the fact it isn't really countered by a any generic unit
@@chrisnewtownnsw knights pound for pound will beat them.
@@chrisnewtownnsw Arbalests go BRRRRRRR Cavaliers and paladins go VRON VRON BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
@@Cyprous thats just soft counter not hard counter
@@nemou4985 Laughs on Imperial Camels
That's why I like Byzantines so much. I always saw them as the "Counter-Civ", because it has the best combination of counterunits in the game. And Cataphracts add so much to that up.
I only wish they would get either the last blacksmith upgrade or bloodlines. They would be so much stronger.
I once made the Minas Tirith battle scene in AoE2, and I had cataphracts as the Rohan horses because they could "trample" the orc militia
What wouldnt I give for Bloodlines... I'd gladly trade away the Paladin upgrade for it. Possibly even taking away the Cavalier for Blast Furnace. Allowing Byzantines still to go with fast castle into Knights early on before transitioning into Cataphracts. I dont think the archer weakness is super insurmountable given the fact that Byzantines have cheap Skirmishers (And Halbs for that matter) and have a generally open enough tech tree to counter stuff..
Their cavaliers are next to pointless.
Almost anyone would trade them away for buffs that actually apply to their used units
@@08vinster It annoys me to no end. It's almost like they were given the Paladin just to screw the Cataphract over. Instead of having one good (but not OP) heavy cavalry option they have two mediocre ones.
That being said I dont think the Cataphract itself needs any base statistical changes. Hell I might even consider reversing one of the cost reductions the elite upgrade or Logistica since you no longer need to consider teching into Paladins.
Byzantines would be ridiculously OP with Bloodlines. They are already an extremely well-performing civ in tournaments and don't have any bad matchups aside from vs Sicilians.
@@Tocaraca I'm not so sure. Maybe it depends on the map? But I hate the idea of the civs being balanced around tournament use. AoE2Stats puts Byzantines at 46.1% winrate.
True Bloodlines is a powerful tech but I refuse to believe it and Blast Furnace would be enough to rocket them to the top. A fully upgraded Paladin will still have 2 more attack, 2 more Pierce Armor and more critically 10 more HP over the Cataphract (This is in the theoretical case that Byzantines also have Bloodlines and Blast Furnace). Not to mention Cataphracts require a castle to be created and are expensive to tech into and create.
@@niki75 Are you forgetting that Bloodlines would apply to their Camels? Their camel spam is already ridiculous. If you had Bloodlines, forget Catas, just spam Camels and trash units.
1:11 "as we look a bit deeper"
and you actually zoomed in. That stupid detail made my day. Thanks, mate
Still remember the old times when seeing Byzantine I was like this civs is damn OP, but now looking at Byzantine realized they have the upgrades missing here and there... Still love the Cataphracts though 🤩
Reduction of damage from the cannon galeons is probably the biggest advantage over the knight line, especially in dark age.
8:20 Paladins with Logistica... Franks wet dream.
#spiritoftheflaw
I think that the Byz Cataphract is one of the best examples of a well designed UU. Isnt ubiquitous in how strong it is, but covers a niche, ie vs meso civs (countering eagle spam) or vs Goths (countering Huscarl spam) vs other civs who are going knights, you really want to go into your own camels/pikes, since you get the discount and miss some techs (bloodlines, BF in imp), if they are spamming pikes, just go into E skirms instead of Cataphracts (again, discount + you conserve res as a ranged counter)
So they have their purpose in countering what Byz might be weak to (as byz generally play into arb/skirm/halb) but also aren't so overbearing that you always want to go for Catas
It's the way UU should be. It's probably why even though this is one of the least used ones is a fan favorite. I've had a lot of discussions with friends over why a civ like Franks get Throwing axemen who are underwhelming compared to their real option but at the end of the day, it's a surprisingly useful UU to cover the civs weakness but also isn't the whole identity.
Like how Rattan archers aren't actually stronger than Arbs against opponents that aren't going ranged units or how Bezerks lose the competition of strenght against champions but shines in flexibility, raiding and anti-archer/cavalry roles with it's unique upgrades.
Most unique units are really good and interesting but there are some that overshine anything else the civ can do, sadly. I struggle not making Boyars as an example, they're just a straight upgrade.
EDIT: I find it funny how i used Rattan archer as an example but forgot that they overshadow Imp skirms, i think its a crying shame they're in the same faction as they both do a similar job, the other is just a straight upgrade but costs gold. That extra damage is so useful against infantry or light cav that Imp skirms seems like a strange choice as they still lose in situations the Rattan archer wont. Also a fun story i encountered on an arena map with Vietnamese, monks are a straight counter to rattans as any converted archers take 40+ arrows to kill, i found out the hard way how badly a unit that counters itself can backfire against monks.
Agree
Small mistake at 8:22 where you said 'paladin' and meant to say 'cataphract'. Great video though! Cataphract have always been one of my favorite units in the game because of their hidden armor and trample damage.
Wasn't the AoE2 meta based around cavalry and archers for a long time? Both of which the Byzantine knight line perform better against; I can see why the cataphract would end up not getting a lot of use in competitive play.
I think the supposed "weakness" to archers is a bit overstated in imperial age. Once trample damage comes in, yes they still die significantly faster than paladins, but they also deal vastly superior damage to archer masses that wedge themselves into corners or tend to stack when they are kiting.
well the enemy can make something to stay infront of the archers and you Cataphracts arent very fast soo i dont think its overstated, they die fast
Fully upgraded cata have a moral debuff on opponents going infantry. Nothing says I'm drowning in gold like elite cata+logistica (apart from a horde of war ele)
On a completely unrelated note, I think the longevity of videos will increase if higher res options are also available. I sooo want to watch it on 2K or 4K, given most of SOTL content is leisure watching. Totally understandable if the effort is not worth it though. But I truly believe having at least 2K option would be a decent upgrade.
Aren't cavalier cost 300f and 300g?
So cavalier + palladin should be 1600f and 1050g.
Husbandry and Bloodlines?
@@UweTellkamp what's up with that?
I really love Cataphracts. However:
I feel like they are both amazing and very frustrating to play because they are so expensive and losing them hurts :(
I know that feeling
Cataphracts are not widely used because most common enemies you face are archer-line and knight line, which cataphracts are weak against.
I love Cataphracts but unfortunately there's not much use in Castle Age for a unit that's less effective against the 2 most popular unit in that age (Knights and Crossbows). Maybe if you go against a camel civ, but again, you have cheap Pikes to defend yourself. Trample Damage in imperial makes them more useful but is such an expensive tech.
Useful vs meso civs. And Hindustanis.
I think it's all about how it integrates into their gameplay. As you mentioned, Castle Age is all about Knights and Crossbows. If you have the initiative, then you'll make your own, and forget about Cataphracts. However, if you're playing defensively, you'll probably be making Skirms, Pikes, or Camels to counter those units, and then trying to build a defensive Castle. A mass of counter units won't give you a way to turn your defense into offense, especially when your opponent makes their own Skirms and Pikes. That's when a few Catas can turn things around. I think they're a terrible unit to try to mass behind a Fast Castle start.
I always used Cataphracts as second step. Enemy is using knights? Throw cheap pikes at them and then few Catas since it is good chance they will counter or match whatever enemy will use to counter pikes.
I find myself binge watching your content like a TV show. Thanks Spirit.
I feel Tarkens and Cataphracts fall into the same " really powerful but almost never seen" category
It's such a shame. They're just such awesome units.
tarkans are pretty common
TKs and Persian elephant say hello
tarkans really arent that good at all
Wait... 19hours ago?
Honestly you should do this for every unique unit; this was fun to watch.
Thanks SOTL for doing this video. Cataphract is one of my favourite UU.
With so many problems in my life, this is what I really need. Someone who tells me how good are Cataphracts. I sincerely hope the answer is "very good", this is what my soul needs right now. Now I will listen to the video.
Should have looked at byzantine camels as well, as they are a common mounted unit for byzantines and also Fight spearmen/pikemen sometimes. Yes Knights are closer to catas, but bizantines have no bloodlines, but have very good camels thanks to their discount
Camel's get slaughtered by spears and pikemen due to their low base attack and still being cavalry
@@carnivoriousleaf I think if you're making Catas, since massing takes time, it's worth making a few Camel Riders to fill up your ranks, since you're already researching cavalry upgrades and need a Stable for Husbandry anyway. And as the game goes late, it's nice to have the Stables up for Hussar switch.
@@mbvglider basic Camels die horribly to Pikemen or Crossbows already and even lose against Knights if there's upgrade/numbers difference. Heavy Camel upgrade is pretty costly and long to research. Adding Camels will result in not having resources for Cataphracts.
I just rewatched this. Still useful. Thanks, again, for making these.
8:20 "Fully upgraded *PALADINS* with logistica...."
Minor mistake there Spirit. But can you imagine that though? Paladins who do trample damage? AND +10 vs infantry? Hot damn
Well, if you're talking about _Logistica_ then it's _+6_ against Infantry
But yeah, totally insane
the thing about Cataphract is that most of the time you dont even need to use them, they serve as this boogeyman that scare your opponent away from ever touching the MAA line - which allow you to make the most out of your superior trash units.
This is gonna make me a lot more confident using them even if I don't have Logistica in yet, I didn't realise their base bonuses continued to be that powerful against imp units. Thanks!
I love the videos where you compare melee cavalry unique units to the knight line. It helps me learn when to add them in in my own games.
Thanks for another informative vid! Would you consider adding a summative graphic at the end to show the pros/cons of the vid subject? There’s so much information it might be easier to take in then solely a verbal explanation given the soundtrack underneath.
I still hope for varangian guard and a kind of technolgy that let you use other unique units. Byzantines should have stronger cav archers too, historically used with cataphracts...
Yes, I also think that the Byzantines need another unique unit, such as the Varangian guard, or that they give them blood lines, or that they reduce the cost of either logistics or the elite cataphracts
@@Aioradeleo27 maybe logistics could work as a replacement for bloodlines too, since its cost... it could give also a bonus to cataphracts and cav archers, in order to use them more (i would suggest also a gold reduction for this two units).
Perhaps a Unique Tech that lets it train the Unique Units of its teammates?
@@llSuperSnivyll that would be great
@@Aioradeleo27 I propose this:
- varangian guard as second unique unit, strong infantry (don't know which bonus is better), only in imperial age;
- cataphracts have trample damage without any tech;
- logistics gives a hp bonus (or something similar) to cata and cav archer and also reduce their cost in gold by 20% (it should represent the raise of cataphracts in X and first half of XI century);
- another tech should give you opportunity to use other players unique units.
I figured out and absolutely loved the cataphract/skirmisher combo as a kid. One of my favorite civs
/commenting before fully watching/
Cataphract feels like the kind of unit you'd build when you're not aware on what enemy had gone for this time and so can't decide how to prepare a counter yet. Which doesn't synergy that well with its cost and timeline.
I have heard that an army composed of Elite Cataphracts, Paladins and Heavy Camel Riders would be almost unstoppable in direct combat against other units.
Paladins are tanks, specially against archers.
Camel Riders are essentially mounted Halbediers designed to counter other cavalry armies, the greatest direct menace in the battlefield to this kind of army.
And Cataprathcs are like that video-game boss which have an special attack that combined with their standard movements can easily cripple even the largest of groups, specially infantry.
Perfectly viable strat in a Black Forest game.
@@unimportantcommenter4356 I though the same.
Uses onagers and pikes.
laughs on teutonic knights pikes and siege onagers/ heavy scorpions
@@Cyprous just halbs should do the trick
Well, it's an excellent video and I really wait for another episodes. Especially interesting would be video about arambais and how they're good.
Would have liked seeing comparison to certain edge-case enemy units, like Catas vs. Gurjara normal camels (which have some bonus damage go through) and Catas vs. Japanese Pikes/Halbs (do they still counter them?)
Japanese halbs do not counter them, I think he covered this in an earlier video. They get pretty destroyed. Samurai get stomped as well from memory.
Gurjara normal camels... Now that does sound interesting!
Gurjara camels are a very good suggestion. I'll have to include that in the Byzantine overview
Japanese halbs might be ttack faster but the HP is not enough to compensate that. It still took 3 hit to defeat Japanese halbs.
@@SpiritOfTheLaw so a Redo Byzantines overview is a possibility? Thank you for your hard work.
@@SpiritOfTheLaw you should also consider bohemian halbadiers
I'd like to point out that there is a small issue within game right now, that for some reason in these kinds of tests makes knight/cavalier/paladin not deal the first hit and makes their attack animation - aswell as attack itself - reset. In this video it's most visible when knight/paladin engages spearline in 1v1 combat. You can see how the knight freezes when hes mid-swing and resets the attack animation not dealing the first blow. Despite the fact that knight line should be dishing out Third attack while spear-line should be starting animation for a second hit.
IE. Knight has 1.8 attack speed - Whereas spearline has 3.0
I love cataphracts, they tough enough, but en masse they become almost unstoppable. I've been able to hold off about 2 (and a half) players on black forest as the trample damage of cataphracts just demolished anything that came through. Such a good unit.
7:05 is there a mistake? cavalier is 300 food/300 gold, paladin is 1300/750 for a total of 1600/1050.
I think it is a shame we don’t see a lot of UU. Makes the game mundane sometimes. They should consider offering all UU an upgrade to create them from their respective military building.
Agreed. And obviously compensate the ones that already get that option with something else.
The problem there is that a lot of UUs, to my understanding, are partially balanced by that difficulty of creation. It'd also be a HUGE mechanical change that would disrupt the meta completely.
@@robertlewis6915 yep
@@robertlewis6915 yes. one of gthe main reasons why balnving in aoe2 is OK despite having so many civs is that in many ways the civs aren't completely different. the more you increase the uniqueness, the harder it is to balance. it's a trade off
They would break the entire game.Imagine massing war wagons or Letitis or konniks or mangudai at stables or archery ranges.Now THAT is something that would ACTUALLY be OP
The trouble with cataphracts is that the archer and knight lines are the most common meta builds for almost every civilization. Countering camels and trash units really isn't a very valuable niche to fill, byzantine spears and skirmishers already do that quite well without costing gold or needing a castle, as you mentioned at the start.
Love the analysis and love the "credits" Music!!!
"Cataphracts have one less piercing armour"
I mean, if they're stupid enough to let their shield on their back....
Ironically historical cataphracts are stronger against projectiles due to horse armour
In a vacuum I think it is really weird to have a knight-type unit that counters knights' counters. But it made a lot more sense when you pointed out that Byzantines get discounts for cataphracts' counters!
I'd really like to see some matches between Byzantines and Goths now...
You forgot that you get to shout “Roma victor” like Russel Crowe when you’re running through the Goth spam. Which has a decisive boost on morale and enjoyment.
8:22 Fully upgraded Paladin WITH Logistica sounds super scary tbh. :D
I was just abt to eatch the previous video ie the turks thru the ages when a new video just came.So happy 😍
Have you done a video like this for the Teutonic Knight? That unit also show up a lot in video.
It’s interesting the knight line is something you try and counter
But if you try that with cataphracts your going to get walked over instead you have to overwhelm them
And bc you can mix them you can actually have some nasty surprise cataphract mines in a knight rush to walk any spears the opponent builds
One thing I hate so much on AoE2 is its lack of transparency. You need to search the Internet to find all these hidden bonus armor etc., not mentioning that obvious bonus damage which can range from 1 to 30...
I appreciate the cataphract for bringing some left-handed representation to AoE2
The question with the Byzantines is whether to bother with cavalry to begin with or not. Seeing as they lack some very crucial upgrades for their cavalry, including the all important bloodlines, going for any cavalry unit as the Byzantines is a questionable choice. So comparing Cataphracts to Paladins seem rather pointless as that's not the real question. Imho as Byzantines the only cavalry unit worth bothering with at all is the Cataphract. You either need it as a fast unit and anti infantry unit or you don't, I'd never bother with the knight line, especially in imperial, as it's just too weak compared to the alternatives. Heck most nations' cavaliers beat Byzantine Paladins due to far superior upgrades and of course bloodlines. So even without counter units you can just match them cavalier to paladin and win. That's really not the position you want to be at.
Been waiting for this for a year
Impressive video! However, I would also expect you to mention how good Cataphracts are against Cav Archers and Cav Archer-like units
Tranks for the Video! It would ne interesting to see how good the Hindustani and Gurjara Camels are against the Cataphract.
After finishing the Bari campaign on hard, you really start to appreciate the versatility of the Byzantines.
When I was a Kid (never got the AoC expansion till HD released), Cataphracts and Light Cav were always my favourite Units, mainly because they're baller enough to carry the additional weight of a shield on their back just to flex on their enemies.
Funny how he mentions japanese halbs as having the decent ability against cataphracts. I have heard late game this is also true for goths with 33% cheaper infrantry while not a counter it is far more valuable to retain gold than food and wood.
Your videos are what brought me to AoE. I now play AoE4, and would love if you could do some videos on that. Age of Noob does research style videos on AoE4 already, but some Spirit of the Law secret sauce is missing, and I would gladly welcome any videos you would decide to make on AoE4!
Cataphracts are a good trash killer unit but it's usually hard to justify their cost against crossbows or knights which are most commonly seen in castle age and early imperial
Something touched on in but I suspect is worth more exploration is how skirmishers and halbs (as needed) complement the cataphract weakness quite well. If the opponent is massing heavy cav, there's no real way to engage a byz player's cataphracts as any engagement will allow Halbs (or even camels if you have the gold) to fight. If the opponent wants to use archers, the Byzantines get FU cheap elite skirms.
Catas have to be the best designed unit. They're so unique and don't need wacky charge attacks.
No mention of cataphract vs mamluke? Despite negating cavalry bonus damage, Mamlukes and cavalry archers can hit and run cataphracts forcing byzantines to rely on other tactics such as their cheaper but still cost gold heavy camels who suffer bonus damage but simply have some speed on their side but sarecens counter with their own high hp heavy camels...
That nerf of skirmishers vs mamlukes is once again making the mamluke king of the battlefield and only elite teutonic knight can deal with them castle age teutonic knights will get taken out by mamlukes.
Ah, yes, Mamluke, the single most expensive non-elephant ground unit.
It's in an arguably worse situation than the Cataphract in terms of money needed to get to them.
So, you're saying that this unit, which is _particularly_ hard to mass, beats Catas?
I mean...yeah, but can't Byzantines just go Camel by Camel all the way and crush yer picky bois?
As for bonus damage, you could include Genoese Crossbows and Flemish Militia as well
7:04 cav+ pala upgrade should be 1600 f + 1050 g
Cataphracts and Mameluque were my top favorit units of AoE2 mate love them!!! British long bowmen came right next to them.
My Army Composition usually is:
Front Line is a Halberdier + Elite Skirmishers combo. Usually have locally built barracks and archery ranges to resupply on automatic.
Elite Hussars as my primary Cavalry for Archers, Priests and Suicide troops against Siege.
Bombard Cannons as my primary siege unit. Mobile and good against single target.
Cataphracts as a special forces unit. Nuke Town Centers or mop up large swarms of infantry that hurt my front line or cavalry.
I like how its like an "UNO Reverse" when it comes to the units knights are good/bad against
Imagine how terrifying Cataphracts would be if they were properly microed by an AI. Two hits on a halberdier and then on to the next while trample damage finishes the first one of
Well you get the same effect if you have two Cataphracts, they both hit their halberd twice and they die due to trample. There is no need to switch targets most of the time because chances are, most enemy units will suffer atleast one hit of trample damage in a medium to large fight. So in the end, probably not that much more terrifying than they already are.
if you do that, you're giving halb the opportunity to hit one more time. Not worth it.
@@Progeusz Does switching targets take that much time? Because the halb dies in three hits either way, only that one of these hits can be on the unit next to him.
Seems to me like a Byzantium player should keep some cataphracts in reserve and use the knight line to force his opponent to focus on anti-cavalry units. Then after your opponent has committed to anti-cavalry, bring in the cataphracts to punch through their defenses. In other words, cataphracts are shock troops.
Man every time i look at age of empirs 2 video i remeber age if empires 1 which i loved way more and i still do regarldless of it's balancing. I loved how the units in age of empires 1 felt were so unique and EVEN exquisite like the roman armoured long sword unit.
8:20 Fully upgraded Paladins with Logistica are only on par with Elite Paladins in large groups.
- Spirit of the Law, 2022
No wonder why camel-based civs are recommended against them. Although, I'd like to see how they fair against Genoese Crossbowmen (even at elite).
Also in accordance with historical records about war, horses hate the smell of camels. Sort of an advantage against horseback-riding units.
Love the videos dude :)
I think the most decisive factor for me to opt for the Knight line is the extra pierce armor.
The fact that Cataphracts have lower pierce armor makes them way too vulnerable to archer attacks.
An expensive cavalry unit is supposed to be a front line damage soaker, especially to archer fire.
Still theyre fast enough to pick fights and trample damage can be really good against bunched up archer groups. Catas with more pierce armor would just be too OP
What is interesting, is that fact Catas are make from Castle actually help Byz against strong Camel Civs, because they can spam their cheap Camels and sneak few Catas for saved resources and flip the fight.
Would love to see a comprehensive video on all the "Knight" units: Boyar vs Cataphract vs Leitis vs...
1:10 "As we look a bit deeper at their hidden attributes, though..." *camera zooms in* I see what you did there, SOTL.
3:20 "results are knight and day"
Part of me wonders how well cataphracts would be against speciality halberdiers (Goths, Bohemians) and camels (Saracens, Gurjaras, Hindustanis).
I like that the 12 damage negation together with 9 bonus damage almost compensates the halberdiers bonus
wonder how well they do against sicilian pikes , the 50% less bonus damage might make somewhat of a difference
I would like you to cover the story of how age of empires 2 received their expansions post-conquerors
I'm not a pro AOE 2 player, but as a kid I have a funny memory about Cataphracts. For the Manzikert campaign, I wondered what would be the most efficient way to deal with those Cataphracts at the start, I would always send out my pikemen or Camels and they would get slaughtered. I wondered why and then resigned to "If you can't beat em join em" strategy and sent out Knights and to my surprise it worked :D
Not only are they cheaper to upgrade due to buffs, but they also have improved their style. They know how to work with a budget even if it’s still a pricey one.
They need a Buff either blast furnace or bloodlines then people would use them. They take to long to max and just so weak. I love them but knights are easier to mass produce. Until they make more changes to them.
Could you please do this but for knights in general? I'm curious to see the hard numbers behind how the paladin line was the meta since 1999.
It might be worth adding an addendum to this Video since the introduction of West Romans the Legionary with Charge Damage might overpower the Anti-Infantry power of the Cataphract.
It's quite debatable when cataphracts are quite strong against top tier infantry civs like Goths (numbers advantage), salves (trample damage) and Dravidians (armour negating). That may be interesting topic.
For cavs it is interesting to use as Franks, berners, sarcens.
I argue Italian geniese crossbow is perfect counter imo
I feel like in a mass the cataphracts will even out with paladins vs arbs with the trample damage once they actually get in melee , and things like hiding in a choke won't help them near as much.
Logistica is still too expensive in my option. 800 food , 600 gold. Either reduce the cost further and give them bloodlines. Just my option as it's too much to invest
I'd rather reduce the elite upgrade. It's insanely expensive, while the Logistica upgrade is good enough for that cost
@@Paal2005 true 1200 food 800 gold that's imp resources right there
@@Elmer90 Could easily be reduced 20-35% imo. It's strong, but not that strong, considering they only become really useful with logistica. With logistica, they can even contend with archers, although slightly ineffective if they are microed well.
They fun part is that small numbers of arbalests are countered by a small(er) number of paladins, while a big ball of arbalest will be able to contest a big ball of paladins. For Cataphracts, it's more like: small numbers (
@@Paal2005 I think both tech could easily do with a minor cost reduction.
And/or stats buffs. Like logistica could add +10hp
I think the Arbalest vs Cataphract/Paladin comparison forgets a crucial detail. While there is definitely a good transition period for arbalests to get ahead of the Elite Cat/Pal upgrade in early Imperial age, in a real game you have to have units screening for the Arbalests, such as Pikes, Knights, or Camels, but infantry will melt to cataphracts. I think an overlooked combo is getting a couple of cataphracts out to back up knights in late castle age, just after a player buys pikes. Great way to surprise a player over investing into infantry.
So the ideal combo is to give your cataphracts monk protection for healing and converting threats as well as additional anti archer unit (skirmishers or siege weapons or even light cavalry depending on the threat).
Anyway, always back up your units with monks if you can, they are so helpful.
3:19 "Knight and day" nice, intentional pun?
in late game wars if you have relics an your oponent not, you can quietly transition into that mb, the pretty tough because if you give the oportunity for your oponent to remake an harbalest ball you imho can to easily loose the value war. Also mb as a small ball in castle age from a castle, some upgrade to clean bully group of pikes and squirmishers, it will survive and probably will be able to harass some siege back but it's situationnal.
Gotta wonder how Gurjaras deal with Cataphracts. They may deal extra bonus damage with their Camels, but that's still a lot of it being negated. They also don't get the Knight line, don't get Pikemen, and don't get Arbs. I'm thinking their main counter would be Elephant Archers or Monks, though they lack Block Printing.
EDIT: The new Byzantine overview showed that Gurjara HC's win with equal resources, thanks to dealing +9 damage (even after their nerf) to Elite Cataphracts and their +4 melee armor tech making the Cataphracts relatively ineffective against them (7 damage per hit).