Hi Matt I also love this stuff, I have a Norman supercharger that was made here in Australia in the 50's, the case was cast iron with a chrome finished bore, the shaft assembly was steel with Bakelite veins, they made good power but heat was a big issue
Hey Matt you might already know this but there is a circle track museum at latimore valley fairgrounds just south of Carlisle PA. They may be able to shed some light on those blowers. They have a lot of rare and interesting motors and speed equipment. I'm glad that you are able to carry the torch for this era of hot rodding.
If you have a Bridgeport, it's really easy. Clamp along the x-axis behind the part, leaving clear access to the front side. Tram straight then tighten clamps. Can elevate on V blocks, just be sure to clamp over them, if you don't, you'll induce a bend. Then use a slitting saw for the groove. Its not angled, it's offset from center. To help you maintain 90 degree separation, leave a 3/4" stub on the end of the shaft. Say 6" long. Then use a 4 sided collet block on that 3/4" stub. Or leave the bearing stud really long and trim to length later. Then after each cut is to depth, you can then loosen clamps, rotate along the cylinder axis to the next flat on the collet block. Rinse and repeat. Sounds complicated, it's really easy. Once turned to diameter, should take 3 hours maybe to machine the 4 slots.
Complicated. Use a horizontal mill, one end of the shaft in an indexing head, the other supported with a center. Rough mill with a smaller width slotting cutter, then finish with the correct size cutter using plenty of coolant under pressure to ensure finishes are clean. Precise, strong, simple.
Ya. With todays cnc machine capabilities it seems silly not to just use one for making these. It really is a simple part to manufacture ether way. I’m a manual miller but cnc takes all the possible mistakes out of it.
Loved the backdrop of all the carbies and other parts. One tweak to the format could be swapping the small green cabinet for a 6' by 6' steel-topped table. You looked a bit squeezed for work-space.
I run a CNC router for a living and the vacuum pump we use as a hold down source is this same dry vein technology only it's the size of a car engine. The veins are in fact solid graphite and do have a wear specification. As they slide in and out of the slot they will form a scallop in the face and the friction against the inside of the drum will wear the material away over time. The first pump we had ran for 17 years and we replaced the veins maybe 2 or 3 times in that span. We run the machine 8 hours a day 5 days a week and the veins will last for years. They are not lubricated otherwise. The pump creates a vacuum pressure of 26.4 inches of mercury and has enough force to hold down a part through an inch of MDF. The pumps are made by a company called Becker. We have bought veins from them, they are very expensive, about $4000. But I have found a company in the UK called Supervein that sold them for $1700. It is a very reliable and low maintenance technology. You keep the bearings greased and that's about all until the veins wear below a certain point. They are easily replaced and if they do happen to fail they just turn into dust which is expelled through the exhaust. I hope this may be helpful, I didn't have time to read through all of the comments to see if someone else had said this so... Good luck. Very cool.
It is exactly like a Judson. I have an old Judson for a VW that has the same vane style. There is a Judson online group with people that replicate the vanes
Two suggestions; as for the vanes, the same material as was used in the old smog pumps or more modern vacuum pumps on high performance engines. Most of those were PTFE. It is highly likely that those vanes had thin but high tension hairpin springs behind them to keep them loaded against the case to maintain the seal. In all likelihood, the score in the rotor occurred when the vane broke and the spring contacted the housing, scoring the housing first then damaging the rotor. The original vanes were likely phenolic with a fibrous weave embedded in the resin. Phenolic is temperature sensitive and becomes brittle when exposed to heat, also the exposure to gas vapor probably contributed to some sticking of the vanes in the slots causing a loss of effectiveness of the supercharger's compression of the intake charge. Good luck on the restoration/rebuild.
I doubt there were any springs in there. I rebuilt an old 1940's or 50's air compressor and it was basically the same as that rotor. It just was a little bigger diameter and had more vanes. Centrifugal force will hold them to the walls. And they dont need to seal unless it needs to make boost. A roots blower on a car engine will run with the blower belt off. The vacuum of the engine running makes it turn. It obviously wont make any boost or anything, but it is the point of how they work.
We had 12 large vacuum pumps for CNC routers where I used to work, about 3 times the size of what you have. The vanes were all solid graphite and with care, i.e. clean filters, lasted 1000 hours or more in an industrial woodworking environment. Interesting video today.
As a follow up, they generate a LOT of heat due to the friction seal of the vanes. Because of that I doubt a flathead would produce much horsepower nor would the engine live long.
@@brianbarney1885 if they were big and looked like something from star trek, those are the VTLF series. Big boys with vanes. Lots of wood working CNC machines have them I found out when I went to Ohio for the class 👍
Next size down is the DVT series. Then down again is the VT series. I've rebuilt probably 125 or so in a 7 year period. Complete teardowns. I worked for PRINTPRESSPROS. We were friends with the pump master Yan who owns JM Electronics in Addison IL. He has all sorts of old parts for pumps and gets his vanes made in house rather than buying from Becker. They are almost the same quality. And cost 3 times less.
Worth a shot interms but the rotor design and blades look almost identical to the becker vaccum pumps my work uses, Maybe worth looking into the becker pumps company to see if they have any graphite blades that match your dimensions
+ With the blades and realiablity my work uses 12 of these becker units some new and some dating back 70s, aslong as the air they take in is properly filtered we can easily see 100+ days between blade changes before they start chipping the edges, Even the vein design on the rotors is a mirror image although scaled up of what i play with every day
Mike is impressing me with his mechanical knowledge. Is there a port that can be used to measure how much PSI this thing would generate? Super cool I think This is one of your best videos. I think it should Be reproduced but identifiable has a reproduction.
Looks very much like a Judson supercharger -- how the vane slots are orientated, how 'deep' the vanes are, etc. The Judson kits came with a lubricator bottle that injected a lubricant (sort of like an Ampco upper cylinder lubricator) to lubricate the vanes.
Hey Matt, that Marshman is very cool! Good that you're not going to "flood the market" with reproductions - AND I'm looking forward to the next installment on this very cool project!
These days, you may be able to get them 3d printed, from metal. I've heard of 3d printed engine-blocks, so I'd assume a cover like that should be do-able, and presumably cheaper than CNC machining custom parts.
We were all thinking like Matt, LOL to have the missing parts remade. Who knows with some reengineering ITG may be the sole manufacturer of vintage new Marshman superchargers??🤔 expanding the business ❤❤❤
Since they are internal I think you could use a teflon strip for the vanes. Like what they use to line dump trucks. Like the superchargers of the more modern era and being most likely designed for racing I am sure this is a wear item A very cool piece of history
Even with modern Teflon seals they’re a wear item if you want the blower to stay efficient. Generally as long as it doesn’t get extra hot they’ll wear in and then last for a good while though.
Teflon strips backers with light safety pin style flat springs as a modern replacement for the original veins. The originals are probably not asbestos as asbestos is quite abrasive and would score both the running bore as well as the vein slots. They are likely a graphite matrix, possibly in a jute or hemp binder.
Fantastic stuff here! Looking forward to seeing one of these running on one of your rides. Go Iron Trap, keep preserving hot rod history and keep moving forward!
Never even heard of a Marshman blower before - wow. Shorrock made vane superchargers here in England up to the early '70s but of course for much smaller engines (1000-1500cc). I think the vanes were steel and a constant oil drip-feed had to be used but they were efficient over long periods. Their main market was for everyday cars (Austin-Healey Sprites, Ford Cortinas, etc)
I have used this stile of pump withe the damaged vave clean up the rotor with a charp box cutter blade remove the vane very carefully if it's not broken (only small peice missing on seal edge tip then clean it up and put it in backwards reassemble and should be fine. I have done this with vane pumps as a field repair and it has lasted years)
Definitely cool video. Really neat "speed artifact". It looks like you can replace the "beat" shaft and everything else... To the point of replication. Just use the original for dimensions. You're a sharp dude. It'll be a project that can sit on the shelf, until time is available. No rush.
Im.80 and had a lot of flatheads. Is this blower a single rotor or a pair? Like the Jimmies? I had a 36 3window Ford coop with the first series little Flathead v 8. Hand cranked ( haha) in.highschool I Found it sitting abandoned behind a gas station with its original spoke wheels Paid $75 for it got it cramked and drove it home. Had a rumble seat too. Dandahermit
Reminds me of an Industrial Hygienist who told me “The chance of the red-orange paint being red lead is so high it’s not worth the cost of testing it” when I was planning how to remove a 10-ton gantry crane made in 1931.
Are the veins boost referenced? Like an air tool the veins are usually made so air pressure pushes out as well as spinning them. If boost can reach behind the sliding vein it would promote sealing.
Not sure if you’ve considered it yet or even thought about it but it’s possible you can have the bore Nikasil plated like a two stroke engine cylinder bore. Heck even just nickel plated would be more wear resistant than the cast aluminum. As far as the actual rotor of your blower if you wanted to make a copy you could turn one on a lathe to press a steel or inconel shafts into. After your shafts are pressed in an old manual mill can be used to make the slots. Although easier to do with a horizontal mill and slitting saw it could be done with a vertical mill. The rotor would need to be setup off center of the slitting saw while being held by a chuck on an index head at one end and a simple live or fixed center at the opposite end. Heck, you can repair the shaft in the rotor you have by turning it down in the lathe. I’d recommend using a tool post grinder to do so. Afterwards, turn a steel bushing/collar to press onto the shaft. Then either thread the shaft or broach a key way into the new bushing. If you’re able to set it up on an engine to get accurate measurements off of your crankshaft pulley turn a new shaft with a flange for the pulley to stop against and source either some different diameter pulleys to fit it or make your own. To that end, fabricating a jack shaft to overspeed the blower compared to crankshaft speed mounted on a parallel plane to the two would be even easier and allow more ratios. Bit whacko about speed parts myself and completely understand the willingness to overspend on rare or even odd historical stuff.
Thank you for sharing your collection and the supercharger with me and my family/friends.y Uncle who was 92 who passed away last month was a great fan of the Model "T"and "A". He had a 1929 A that was like his first car All I can say is that he would have loved this and probably would have been able to answer the questions about it but I had no idea you had one or two of these. I know another man who might be able to help you. I will try and contact him and let him know.
This makes boost the same way an air starter for a 3512 caterpillar works! They have springs that keep the fins against the inner housing to make air pressure/boost. They are also off center to allow constant contact with the fins in the inner housing. Interesting blower you have there..
That is designed based off of the old milking vacuum pumps. The veins are 100% carbon graphite blend. Look up old milking machine vacuum pumps. I use to rebuild those old vacuum pumps, they could pull over 20 psi of vacuum. They were loud when running. That damage makes no difference, just clean up the sharp edges and the critical part is the graphite slot, the veins must move freely, they work off of centrifugal force, the veins must have minimum side clearance, I think it was 0.002" - 0.004" side clearance. Milk pump veins we used on our machines lasted 3 to 5 years running 16 hours a day at least 5-1/2 days a week. If you cannot find any information on them let me know I think I still have my old machine catalog with the pump information in it in my storage unit.
Vein pumps and blowers are quite common still today, a month ago i took a vacuum pump apart that had warped veins, it was on a vacuum truck, i have worked around vein hydraulic pumps, it would be interesting to hear this, probably pretty loud.
Matt, the material for the veins is fairly straight forward. There is a plastic called Delrin. I've used it many times in a lot of unusual applications. Unlike teflon or nylon, it's not affected by liquids or most chemicals. Petroleum doesn't affect either. It's self lubricating and very easy to machine. It comes in natural (white) and black. The vane wouldn't be that hard to machine with a vertical rotary head and a slitting saw. Don't over think this. There is also a company out your way that does hard coating on vintage motorcycle cylinder bores and I'm sure they could repair that housing for you. I'll have to look for their contact info and let you know. Keep up the good work. Rick
Great video. What do you think the optimal rpm in the supercharger? The pulley on the supercharger would spin faster or slower with different diameter pulleys. The pulley size on the crankshaft would effect the rpm in the supercharger too. Just a thought.
Hey Matt and Mike Right after watching your video I happened to catch a motor trend article on Chip Foose’s 32 Ford Duce Coupe and in the pictures of the flat head he is running is a blower that looks something close to yours might be worth while just to check it out I know you love your research ……Hope it can help you…DZ
In fire services we have what is known as a Rotary Vane Priming Pump, apart from being only 3 to 4 inches long they look very similar but the vanes are slotted vertically 90 degrees apart, the vanes are a Bakelite and resin style material. great find, very interesting
Always interesting to see early speed equipment and how they did things back in the early days of hot rodding. Some nice research on George Marshman and his son. I have to believe you're right that he had something to do with those superchargers. The absence of serial numbers suggests they were never produced in large numbers, perhaps a failed venture.
@@waynespyker5731 I've not seen carbon fiber used for wear materials, pretty much figure its structural. Phenolic's been used in aerospace since WW2 for rub surfaces and bearings, my brother still machines it for unlimited hydroplane shaft bearings. Easy to machine but the dust is nothing you want to breathe.
@@hotrodmykUHMWPE is a polyethylene. It's got an extremely low melting point. It would either melt or become very soft at the temps seen in a supercharger. Teflon is the modern choice for supercharger vanes but the slots need to be designed for it. Phenolic resin with fiber reinforcement is extremely common for vanes in air tools.
Paxton also used a sliding vane style, at least in the 60's. I had one that was made to fit the Corvair. That one also had an oil injection/drip feed (Marvel's Mystery Oil BTW) to lubricant the micarda vanes
That's so neat how it's like a variable displacement hydraulic pump and they even used graphite like in electric motors because it's self lubricating. Awesome piece of early automotive engineering.
are those quick change rear ends on the shelf behind you from Frankland Racing? my step-father made the castings for those back in the day, i used to pour the aluminum and also deliver them to Ruskin, Fla ..... god, i wish those days were still here !!!!
Hey Matt. I work on tugboats and the air starters on the older diesel engines use the same sliding vane technology. You might be able to contact them to find out what kind of material they use to make the vanes. Ingersal Rand made our starters. Being that your Dad was a diesel mechanic he might know. Good luck 🍀. Enjoy your videos
I'm here recently just now learning about the intricacies of the flathead engines. The exhaust has one hell of a trip out of the cylinder! No wonder they didn't make much power stock. That and the 7 to 7.5 to 1 compression ratio 😮
Pretty cool that the racers around your area were always trying to beat each other and coming up with speed accessories like this and especially stuff you can still find.
Hey Matt, I am a metallurgical chemist and I love this tech. It was astounding what they did with what they had back then. I am starting a welding/fabrication business that specializes in pre WW2 race cars. I am working with a guy who is designing gears in a transaxle to make a posi-rear. I live in Pottstown also and I am just starting a build of a 1928 Morgan RIP GN(MGB)Special Hillclimb racecar. These started out as three wheelers but when they used either a GN or an MG rear differential they became a 4 wheel special. I am rebuilding experimental opposed twin aircraft motor for the front which mates to the MGB transmission by means of a hand cast two part aluminum adapter. The frame is Wood over steel and The build will be my first series of RUclips videos. I hope to catch up with you and stop by sometime. I can take a look at the supercharger and see how easy or hard it would be.
Some awesome history. I've lived in the Phoenixville, Pottstown area pretty much all my life and haven't heard of a lot of the tracks you named. But at the same time my dad wasn't into racing so that might be why I never heard about the tracks. Kinda sucks cause I'm almost 68 and would have loved to go to some of the races.
As a Brit it's the first time I've ever heard an American refer to a set screw as a "grub" screw. Very interesting video, never seen that design of supercharger before, thanks for posting.
What a cool device! it is the longest rotary vane pump I have seen though there is no reason It couldn't be larger. The beauty of design is that centrifugal force creates the seal between the blade and the housing, and they self-adjust as they slowly wear out. If you apply a pressureized fluid or air to the thing it becomes a handy motor btw
Thanks Matt. Very interesting. A simple design too. You should talk to a die maker about replicating that housing and snout. It might be more do-able than you think. A steel or stainless sleeve pressed in might be a good improvement too. A horizontal mill would be a good tool for cutting those slots. ...Just some thoughts. Good luck with them. I'll bet those would sell like hot cakes to the flat head crowd.
Micarta is a brand name for composites of linen, canvas, paper, fiberglass, carbon fiber, or other fabric in a thermosetting plastic. It was originally used in electrical and decorative applications. Micarta was developed by George Westinghouse at least as early as 1910 using phenolic resins invented by Leo Baekeland. These resins were used to impregnate paper and cotton fabric which were cured under pressure and high temperature to produce laminates.
Being a Pennsylvania man all my life, i love seeing this old racing stuff thats come from PA racers. Keep these amazing parts and cars alive for the nxt generation to learn aout. ❤
Maybe Bakelite or some other phenolic vanes? I’m sure there’s a much better modern material available. Micarta or some other slippery plastic. Interesting local PA history.
It looks like a standard rotary vane pump or motor. I had a dental one/ motor from the late 1800s.... It had phenolic veins. Not spring-loaded just centrifugal force. It would pull about 26 in of vacuum when hooked up to my drill press for testing. And if I put air into it, very powerful motor. As an air motor I would have to give it a little spin because it was centrifugal force that held the veins out The vanes were phenolic on mine and showed almost no wear. With modern materials like perhaps Teflon vanes, they might last almost forever.
If you reproduce the Supercharger make a bolt on top plate, so Carburetor choices 1, 2, 3 would be easier choice instead of the expensive castings... I hope you go through this... "Iron Trap Supercharger"
The early supercharger stuff is super cool, when I was stationed in Germany I was often informed about 3.0 csl bmw's with McCullough superchargers leaving the Italian exotics in the dust on the autobahn. Tha ks for the video man💪💪👍
Could those vanes be a graphited TUFNOL? An engineering plastic, which is a cloth reinforced Phenol Formaldehyde thermosetting plastic resin, similar to Bakelite, (which was wood dust filled) but a lot tougher. It was used for items such as timing gears on the V6 Ford engines here in the UK. I believe the Allard/Shorrock superchargers used Tufnol blades.
rotary vane pump, all air tool motors... VW vacuum pumps, etc). Vanes made of bakelite - or similar fiber infused composite, as the vanes wear, they conform to the housing. The body casting is eccentric to the rotor - that is where the compression comes from. The Bakelite is fairly aggressive, I have a feeling the aluminum wore out fairly quickly. In air tools, we see hardened steel casings galled and worn relatively quickly. Once vanes have been run in a cylinder/housing, they need to stay with them as they have conformed to the various wear lines, unless you bore the housing and start with new vanes. I am guessing this supercharger was relatively slow speed/low boost compared to the overall engine RPM - an equivalent air tool with same design (albeit smaller) regularly run above 20,000-25,000. Very cool idea from an era where this technology would be relatively inexpensive. Thank you for sharing this!!
Did you all know that the first application of a supercharger to an automobile use was done by Lee Sherman Chadwick of Philadelphia and Pottstown PA? The Great Chadwick Six was the first automobile to use a supercharger. Mr. Chadwick was inspired by the use of superchargers in the mining industry.
google ... Becker rotary vane vacuum pump... same design. the critical dimensions are the end travel and the rotor to housing clearance - typically 0.004 - 0.008" overall travel (50/50) and 0.002-0.004" rotor to housing. thats on a vacuum pump. being aluminum the tolerances will differ due to different expansion steel vs. aluminum . the vanes are a special carbon fiber. It is typical for foreign objects to enter and cause destruction. the rotor you can weld and machine and balance- the main housing you can hone, but it will affect your clearance. the vanes must slide free and easy - the only lubrication is on the bearings. find someone local to you that sells / repairs vacuum pumps -
Back in the 90s we purchased a Company called Rotocold from the UK who made rotary vane compressors used for material handling and refrigeration. We renamed it Rotovane and set up a factory in Utica, NY to manufacture them. Unfortunately, we ran into several problems with the manufacture of them, and eventually the plant closed. The issue with these types of compressors are they require extremely tight tolerances in machining all the parts as when all fitted together the centrelines of the main housing and bearing end caps must all align perfectly. Additionally, there is the issue of sealing of the ends of the rotor and blades to the end caps. Again, to seal, especially without a lubricant like used in refrigeration, is difficult, and tolerances become crucial. Not something a run of the mill machine shop can likely do. We purchased state of the art top end CNC machines from Okuma as well as high end measuring equipment and still had issues yet in the UK they had non CNC old school equipment, but it really came down to their knowledge and experience.
Try to find Tony Sparacino who used to work for Jerry Verona he knows all about that stuff. He was running late models out of my hometown Roxborough. Great Video never saw that supercharger. Oops maybe Moe would know also who used to turn wrenches for the Murray’s!!!
Somewhere you might reach out to is S.T.A.R. senior tour auto racers or N.E.A.R. new England antique racers i use to race with them in a 34 chevy coupe open wheel modified and I've seen alot of old pictures from way back and I remember seeing something that looked like these on cars! They use to run whatever they wanted and I know for a fact that people did whatever they could to be the fastest! Can't hurt to ask. Hope this helps
The vanes are possibly made of Morganite, which is the material that generator brushes are made of, and you know that generator brushes can last quite a while. Morganite is made in different degrees of hardness, which changes whether the brush or the thing it runs against wears more.
You can check with Fruit land Vacuum Pumps. They make the vanes and might make some for you. Don't over complicate your thoughts on this. It is a very simple design.
David Richards can help you with all your supercharger restoration needs, parts or machining: ruclips.net/video/T8_lbSd1mdk/видео.html He could machine the vane slots on his shaper at 10:00, or his planner at 11:06, or his milling machine at 14:00, or his line bore at 30:10. Dave also has a bobbed 34 (?) Ford truck powered by a nailhead Buick.
I ran a Shorrock Centrifugal Supercharger fort a few years, it had cast iron blades/vanes which suffered from wear, they were, after I sold it, replaced with teflon tipped blades, they lasted longer, I believe. The biggest issue was excess heat, especially at the back of the engine.
are those quick change rear ends on the shelf behind you from Frankland Racing? my step-father made the castings for those back in the day, i used to pour the aluminum and also deliver them to Ruskin, Fla ..... god, i wish those days were still here !!!!
I think the vanes are bakalite, an early form of plastic. There are other RUclipsrs who do casting and machining that you could team up with Abom79 is a machinist and I remember Kieth Rucker having a person who cast some things for him.
Hi Matt I also love this stuff, I have a Norman supercharger that was made here in Australia in the 50's, the case was cast iron with a chrome finished bore, the shaft assembly was steel with Bakelite veins, they made good power but heat was a big issue
That’s super cool!
I guess it was common for this type to have a oil jug mounted to the side of the engine to lubricate the vane/supercharger body surface
I was gonna mention bake a lite or Micarta
Why not carbon fiber now? Natural lubricity, heat resistance, I would think...
Ohh. Bakelite. That makes a lot of sense. Never would have thought of that.
Hey Matt you might already know this but there is a circle track museum at latimore valley fairgrounds just south of Carlisle PA. They may be able to shed some light on those blowers. They have a lot of rare and interesting motors and speed equipment. I'm glad that you are able to carry the torch for this era of hot rodding.
If you have a Bridgeport, it's really easy. Clamp along the x-axis behind the part, leaving clear access to the front side. Tram straight then tighten clamps. Can elevate on V blocks, just be sure to clamp over them, if you don't, you'll induce a bend. Then use a slitting saw for the groove. Its not angled, it's offset from center. To help you maintain 90 degree separation, leave a 3/4" stub on the end of the shaft. Say 6" long. Then use a 4 sided collet block on that 3/4" stub. Or leave the bearing stud really long and trim to length later. Then after each cut is to depth, you can then loosen clamps, rotate along the cylinder axis to the next flat on the collet block. Rinse and repeat. Sounds complicated, it's really easy. Once turned to diameter, should take 3 hours maybe to machine the 4 slots.
Complicated. Use a horizontal mill, one end of the shaft in an indexing head, the other supported with a center. Rough mill with a smaller width slotting cutter, then finish with the correct size cutter using plenty of coolant under pressure to ensure finishes are clean.
Precise, strong, simple.
Ya. With todays cnc machine capabilities it seems silly not to just use one for making these. It really is a simple part to manufacture ether way. I’m a manual miller but cnc takes all the possible mistakes out of it.
Loved the backdrop of all the carbies and other parts. One tweak to the format could be swapping the small green cabinet for a 6' by 6' steel-topped table. You looked a bit squeezed for work-space.
I heard the workbench was period correct? For the time.
I run a CNC router for a living and the vacuum pump we use as a hold down source is this same dry vein technology only it's the size of a car engine. The veins are in fact solid graphite and do have a wear specification. As they slide in and out of the slot they will form a scallop in the face and the friction against the inside of the drum will wear the material away over time. The first pump we had ran for 17 years and we replaced the veins maybe 2 or 3 times in that span. We run the machine 8 hours a day 5 days a week and the veins will last for years. They are not lubricated otherwise. The pump creates a vacuum pressure of 26.4 inches of mercury and has enough force to hold down a part through an inch of MDF. The pumps are made by a company called Becker. We have bought veins from them, they are very expensive, about $4000. But I have found a company in the UK called Supervein that sold them for $1700. It is a very reliable and low maintenance technology. You keep the bearings greased and that's about all until the veins wear below a certain point. They are easily replaced and if they do happen to fail they just turn into dust which is expelled through the exhaust. I hope this may be helpful, I didn't have time to read through all of the comments to see if someone else had said this so... Good luck. Very cool.
Thanks for the insight!
It is exactly like a Judson. I have an old Judson for a VW that has the same vane style. There is a Judson online group with people that replicate the vanes
Two suggestions; as for the vanes, the same material as was used in the old smog pumps or more modern vacuum pumps on high performance engines. Most of those were PTFE.
It is highly likely that those vanes had thin but high tension hairpin springs behind them to keep them loaded against the case to maintain the seal. In all likelihood, the score in the rotor occurred when the vane broke and the spring contacted the housing, scoring the housing first then damaging the rotor.
The original vanes were likely phenolic with a fibrous weave embedded in the resin. Phenolic is temperature sensitive and becomes brittle when exposed to heat, also the exposure to gas vapor probably contributed to some sticking of the vanes in the slots causing a loss of effectiveness of the supercharger's compression of the intake charge.
Good luck on the restoration/rebuild.
Phenolic sounds about right. Was used for a lot of pump vanes.
I doubt there were any springs in there. I rebuilt an old 1940's or 50's air compressor and it was basically the same as that rotor. It just was a little bigger diameter and had more vanes. Centrifugal force will hold them to the walls. And they dont need to seal unless it needs to make boost. A roots blower on a car engine will run with the blower belt off. The vacuum of the engine running makes it turn. It obviously wont make any boost or anything, but it is the point of how they work.
Exactly 💯
We had 12 large vacuum pumps for CNC routers where I used to work, about 3 times the size of what you have. The vanes were all solid graphite and with care, i.e. clean filters, lasted 1000 hours or more in an industrial woodworking environment. Interesting video today.
As a follow up, they generate a LOT of heat due to the friction seal of the vanes. Because of that I doubt a flathead would produce much horsepower nor would the engine live long.
I'm certified for Becker vacuum and blower pumps 👍 probably something like what you had 👍
That’s right, they were Becker, had a bit of old timers and couldn’t remember the brand. Good pumps.
@@brianbarney1885 if they were big and looked like something from star trek, those are the VTLF series. Big boys with vanes. Lots of wood working CNC machines have them I found out when I went to Ohio for the class 👍
Next size down is the DVT series. Then down again is the VT series. I've rebuilt probably 125 or so in a 7 year period. Complete teardowns. I worked for PRINTPRESSPROS. We were friends with the pump master Yan who owns JM Electronics in Addison IL. He has all sorts of old parts for pumps and gets his vanes made in house rather than buying from Becker. They are almost the same quality. And cost 3 times less.
Worth a shot interms but the rotor design and blades look almost identical to the becker vaccum pumps my work uses, Maybe worth looking into the becker pumps company to see if they have any graphite blades that match your dimensions
+ With the blades and realiablity my work uses 12 of these becker units some new and some dating back 70s, aslong as the air they take in is properly filtered we can easily see 100+ days between blade changes before they start chipping the edges, Even the vein design on the rotors is a mirror image although scaled up of what i play with every day
Mike is impressing me with his mechanical knowledge. Is there a port that can be used to measure how much PSI this thing would generate? Super cool I think This is one of your best videos. I think it should Be reproduced but identifiable has a reproduction.
Looks very much like a Judson supercharger -- how the vane slots are orientated, how 'deep' the vanes are, etc. The Judson kits came with a lubricator bottle that injected a lubricant (sort of like an Ampco upper cylinder lubricator) to lubricate the vanes.
The dust from the vanes as they wear, ends up going through the cylinders so I imagine that was not good for cylinder wear.
Graphite is a great lubricant see for example Krex Graphite Engine Lubricant and molykote graphite grease
I don't think it'd be bad directly for cylinder wear but it'd probably be not great for coking.
"See if I can find a couple of Strombergs" cracked me up !!!
Haha!
Lol I live right outside Coatesville in parksburg lol. Small world I just found you by accident
Hey Matt, that Marshman is very cool! Good that you're not going to "flood the market" with reproductions - AND I'm looking forward to the next installment on this very cool project!
Good idea to have the missing snout and rear cover, made. Would that be a job for a, high-end CNC machine?
These days, you may be able to get them 3d printed, from metal.
I've heard of 3d printed engine-blocks, so I'd assume a cover like that should be do-able, and presumably cheaper than CNC machining custom parts.
We were all thinking like Matt, LOL to have the missing parts remade. Who knows with some reengineering ITG may be the sole manufacturer of vintage new Marshman superchargers??🤔 expanding the business ❤❤❤
Abom 79 youtube chanel is a machinest who will be able to repoduce the rotor .
Since they are internal I think you could use a teflon strip for the vanes. Like what they use to line dump trucks. Like the superchargers of the more modern era and being most likely designed for racing I am sure this is a wear item A very cool piece of history
Even with modern Teflon seals they’re a wear item if you want the blower to stay efficient. Generally as long as it doesn’t get extra hot they’ll wear in and then last for a good while though.
Exactly what I was thinking
Teflon strips backers with light safety pin style flat springs as a modern replacement for the original veins. The originals are probably not asbestos as asbestos is quite abrasive and would score both the running bore as well as the vein slots. They are likely a graphite matrix, possibly in a jute or hemp binder.
Fantastic stuff here! Looking forward to seeing one of these running on one of your rides. Go Iron Trap, keep preserving hot rod history and keep moving forward!
maybe a patent was filed for that ..with drawings
Never even heard of a Marshman blower before - wow. Shorrock made vane superchargers here in England up to the early '70s but of course for much smaller engines (1000-1500cc). I think the vanes were steel and a constant oil drip-feed had to be used but they were efficient over long periods. Their main market was for everyday cars (Austin-Healey Sprites, Ford Cortinas, etc)
I rebuilt a Shorrock vane supercharger similar (but much smaller) to the one in this feature that was fitted to an MG TA or TC back in the 1960s.
I have used this stile of pump withe the damaged vave clean up the rotor with a charp box cutter blade remove the vane very carefully if it's not broken (only small peice missing on seal edge tip then clean it up and put it in backwards reassemble and should be fine. I have done this with vane pumps as a field repair and it has lasted years)
Definitely cool video. Really neat "speed artifact". It looks like you can replace the "beat" shaft and everything else... To the point of replication. Just use the original for dimensions. You're a sharp dude. It'll be a project that can sit on the shelf, until time is available. No rush.
So.... This is re- Bobby Marshman (1936-64), the race car driver, and/or his parents, George and Evelyn.
Im.80 and had a lot of flatheads. Is this blower a single rotor or a pair? Like the Jimmies? I had a 36 3window Ford coop with the first series little Flathead v 8. Hand cranked ( haha) in.highschool
I Found it sitting abandoned behind a gas station with its original spoke wheels
Paid $75 for it got it cramked and drove it home. Had a rumble seat too. Dandahermit
"Definately asbestos" is the best deadpan drop by Mike yet.
Mike worked as an industrial electrician so he know asbestos
Reminds me of an Industrial Hygienist who told me “The chance of the red-orange paint being red lead is so high it’s not worth the cost of testing it” when I was planning how to remove a 10-ton gantry crane made in 1931.
Eat my asbestos, would make a good retro bumper sticker.
* Hey Matt checkout the 3 Model T racers at Strong's Garage. The Canada boys have fun with old iron too. 👊😎👍
How what a rarity! It looks a lot like a Judson blower, common for beetles. Shorocks were a better design, they had a rotating sleeve.
FES Referigeration!!Vapor compressors York Pa.Sameprinciple
You should ask Mr Edelbrock if he wants it for reproduction for others I am sure anyone with a flathead engine would want one. Thanks
Are the veins boost referenced? Like an air tool the veins are usually made so air pressure pushes out as well as spinning them. If boost can reach behind the sliding vein it would promote sealing.
I love watching your videos about old school hot rod building and I wish to one day own one too.
This stuff is cool man I desperately want to know what it sounds like running please do a video !
"8000 tools to get the pulley off ..." That hit home lol, I always say almost every simple job turns out to be a 50-tooler by the time I finish it.
Hilariously long vane supercharger... pretty cool stuff.
Not sure if you’ve considered it yet or even thought about it but it’s possible you can have the bore Nikasil plated like a two stroke engine cylinder bore. Heck even just nickel plated would be more wear resistant than the cast aluminum. As far as the actual rotor of your blower if you wanted to make a copy you could turn one on a lathe to press a steel or inconel shafts into. After your shafts are pressed in an old manual mill can be used to make the slots. Although easier to do with a horizontal mill and slitting saw it could be done with a vertical mill. The rotor would need to be setup off center of the slitting saw while being held by a chuck on an index head at one end and a simple live or fixed center at the opposite end. Heck, you can repair the shaft in the rotor you have by turning it down in the lathe. I’d recommend using a tool post grinder to do so. Afterwards, turn a steel bushing/collar to press onto the shaft. Then either thread the shaft or broach a key way into the new bushing. If you’re able to set it up on an engine to get accurate measurements off of your crankshaft pulley turn a new shaft with a flange for the pulley to stop against and source either some different diameter pulleys to fit it or make your own. To that end, fabricating a jack shaft to overspeed the blower compared to crankshaft speed mounted on a parallel plane to the two would be even easier and allow more ratios.
Bit whacko about speed parts myself and completely understand the willingness to overspend on rare or even odd historical stuff.
Thank you for sharing your collection and the supercharger with me and my family/friends.y Uncle who was 92 who passed away last month was a great fan of the Model "T"and "A". He had a 1929 A that was like his first car All I can say is that he would have loved this and probably would have been able to answer the questions about it but I had no idea you had one or two of these. I know another man who might be able to help you. I will try and contact him and let him know.
This makes boost the same way an air starter for a 3512 caterpillar works! They have springs that keep the fins against the inner housing to make air pressure/boost. They are also off center to allow constant contact with the fins in the inner housing.
Interesting blower you have there..
That's awesome! Would phenolic be a suitable materiel for replacement vanes? All the very best in all you all do!
If you going to make them, make a 3x2, 4x2 version also
That is designed based off of the old milking vacuum pumps. The veins are 100% carbon graphite blend. Look up old milking machine vacuum pumps.
I use to rebuild those old vacuum pumps, they could pull over 20 psi of vacuum. They were loud when running.
That damage makes no difference, just clean up the sharp edges and the critical part is the graphite slot, the veins must move freely, they work off of centrifugal force, the veins must have minimum side clearance, I think it was 0.002" - 0.004" side clearance.
Milk pump veins we used on our machines lasted 3 to 5 years running 16 hours a day at least 5-1/2 days a week.
If you cannot find any information on them let me know I think I still have my old machine catalog with the pump information in it in my storage unit.
Thank you! Very cool connection there since farming was big in our area too !
Works like a little air grinder but makes air not useing air 👍
Vein pumps and blowers are quite common still today, a month ago i took a vacuum pump apart that had warped veins, it was on a vacuum truck, i have worked around vein hydraulic pumps, it would be interesting to hear this, probably pretty loud.
Thank you Matt and Mike for sharing a piece of history with me !
I've seen industrial air compressors use a sliding vane set up similar to that.
Matt, the material for the veins is fairly straight forward. There is a plastic called Delrin. I've used it many times in a lot of unusual applications. Unlike teflon or nylon, it's not affected by liquids or most chemicals. Petroleum doesn't affect either. It's self lubricating and very easy to machine. It comes in natural (white) and black. The vane wouldn't be that hard to machine with a vertical rotary head and a slitting saw. Don't over think this. There is also a company out your way that does hard coating on vintage motorcycle cylinder bores and I'm sure they could repair that housing for you. I'll have to look for their contact info and let you know. Keep up the good work.
Rick
Fun Fact: white Delrin is what the original series of Hot Wheels used for the inner wheel hubs in the late 60s. 😊
Great video. What do you think the optimal rpm in the supercharger? The pulley on the supercharger would spin faster or slower with different diameter pulleys. The pulley size on the crankshaft would effect the rpm in the supercharger too. Just a thought.
Hey Matt and Mike Right after watching your video I happened to catch a motor trend article on Chip Foose’s 32 Ford Duce Coupe and in the pictures of the flat head he is running is a blower that looks something close to yours might be worth while just to check it out I know you love your research ……Hope it can help you…DZ
On second look I’m sure it’s new not like yours sorry
Judson supercharges also made in PA.
Lots of info
Hey .......my air tool are vain .......use fiber glass......cheers
when i saw the first blower it was so long i thought it was for a straight 6.
In fire services we have what is known as a Rotary Vane Priming Pump, apart from being only 3 to 4 inches long they look very similar but the vanes are slotted vertically 90 degrees apart, the vanes are a Bakelite and resin style material. great find, very interesting
That rotor is just the rotor inside your air tools, with vanes that slide out against the body, cool, glad your taking it apart!!
Always interesting to see early speed equipment and how they did things back in the early days of hot rodding. Some nice research on George Marshman and his son. I have to believe you're right that he had something to do with those superchargers. The absence of serial numbers suggests they were never produced in large numbers, perhaps a failed venture.
Your cool you share. Info and stuff w/friends.
I'd consider phenolic for the vanes. Hated machining it but it's a lot tougher than the original material.
Great choice, another thought carbon fiber composite?
@@waynespyker5731 I've not seen carbon fiber used for wear materials, pretty much figure its structural. Phenolic's been used in aerospace since WW2 for rub surfaces and bearings, my brother still machines it for unlimited hydroplane shaft bearings. Easy to machine but the dust is nothing you want to breathe.
@@danontherun5685 How about UHMW ?
@@hotrodmyk no experience with that material.
@@hotrodmykUHMWPE is a polyethylene. It's got an extremely low melting point. It would either melt or become very soft at the temps seen in a supercharger.
Teflon is the modern choice for supercharger vanes but the slots need to be designed for it.
Phenolic resin with fiber reinforcement is extremely common for vanes in air tools.
Paxton also used a sliding vane style, at least in the 60's.
I had one that was made to fit the Corvair. That one also had an oil injection/drip feed (Marvel's Mystery Oil BTW) to lubricant the micarda vanes
That's so neat how it's like a variable displacement hydraulic pump and they even used graphite like in electric motors because it's self lubricating. Awesome piece of early automotive engineering.
are those quick change rear ends on the shelf behind you from Frankland Racing? my step-father made the castings for those back in the day, i used to pour the aluminum and also deliver them to Ruskin, Fla ..... god, i wish those days were still here !!!!
Halibrand. I have an original cast iron frankland in one of my cars though.
Totally interesting, as usual Matt. I love watching this stuff!!
Looks like a variable vane hydraulic pump. Great video.
Vane type superchargers can make pretty good pressure and they really move air too!.... i used once ford smog pump as supercharger for small engine...
Hey Matt. I work on tugboats and the air starters on the older diesel engines use the same sliding vane technology. You might be able to contact them to find out what kind of material they use to make the vanes. Ingersal Rand made our starters. Being that your Dad was a diesel mechanic he might know. Good luck 🍀. Enjoy your videos
Outstanding video with the superchargers! Excellent background with the shelves, too! Thanks!
I'm here recently just now learning about the intricacies of the flathead engines. The exhaust has one hell of a trip out of the cylinder! No wonder they didn't make much power stock. That and the 7 to 7.5 to 1 compression ratio 😮
Talk to a man I know of, Randy Long in Honybrook PA. He is a racer and a engine builder
Definitely looks like a Judson supercharger internals.
Pretty cool that the racers around your area were always trying to beat each other and coming up with speed accessories like this and especially stuff you can still find.
Hey Matt, I am a metallurgical chemist and I love this tech. It was astounding what they did with what they had back then. I am starting a welding/fabrication business that specializes in pre WW2 race cars. I am working with a guy who is designing gears in a transaxle to make a posi-rear. I live in Pottstown also and I am just starting a build of a 1928 Morgan RIP GN(MGB)Special Hillclimb racecar. These started out as three wheelers but when they used either a GN or an MG rear differential they became a 4 wheel special. I am rebuilding experimental opposed twin aircraft motor for the front which mates to the MGB transmission by means of a hand cast two part aluminum adapter. The frame is Wood over steel and The build will be my first series of RUclips videos. I hope to catch up with you and stop by sometime. I can take a look at the supercharger and see how easy or hard it would be.
Awesome that sounds like a killer project! Shoot us an email and we can arrange a visit! Irontrapgarage@gmail.com
Some awesome history. I've lived in the Phoenixville, Pottstown area pretty much all my life and haven't heard of a lot of the tracks you named. But at the same time my dad wasn't into racing so that might be why I never heard about the tracks. Kinda sucks cause I'm almost 68 and would have loved to go to some of the races.
As a Brit it's the first time I've ever heard an American refer to a set screw as a "grub" screw. Very interesting video, never seen that design of supercharger before, thanks for posting.
I call them “grub screws,” and have done so for many years.
Weird I am brit and have never heard anyone say set screw
What a cool device! it is the longest rotary vane pump I have seen though there is no reason It couldn't be larger. The beauty of design is that centrifugal force creates the seal between the blade and the housing, and they self-adjust as they slowly wear out. If you apply a pressureized fluid or air to the thing it becomes a handy motor btw
Great find Matt. All your hard work is paying off big time. Wish you the best and may the hot rod god's smile upon you.
Thanks Matt. Very interesting. A simple design too. You should talk to a die maker about replicating that housing and snout. It might be more do-able than you think. A steel or stainless sleeve pressed in might be a good improvement too. A horizontal mill would be a good tool for cutting those slots. ...Just some thoughts. Good luck with them. I'll bet those would sell like hot cakes to the flat head crowd.
Micarta is a brand name for composites of linen, canvas, paper, fiberglass, carbon fiber, or other fabric in a thermosetting plastic. It was originally used in electrical and decorative applications. Micarta was developed by George Westinghouse at least as early as 1910 using phenolic resins invented by Leo Baekeland. These resins were used to impregnate paper and cotton fabric which were cured under pressure and high temperature to produce laminates.
Being a Pennsylvania man all my life, i love seeing this old racing stuff thats come from PA racers. Keep these amazing parts and cars alive for the nxt generation to learn aout. ❤
Probably prototype castings if there isn’t a serial number on them.
Maybe Bakelite or some other phenolic vanes? I’m sure there’s a much better modern material available. Micarta or some other slippery plastic. Interesting local PA history.
i used to make vanes for air tools from that,it was my first thought when i saw them
Jay Leno , Don't hide unique stuff, exercise,use,enjoy, admire. Don't hid it, it is history to be shown!!! 79 yr old lusted the stuff couldn't afford.
Is all the black dust inside housing caused by the wearing of the rotor veins?
cool old peace Matt and Mike
Marshman supercharger on top of the Ardon V8!!!!!
Super rare super charger on legendary V8.
It looks like a standard rotary vane pump or motor.
I had a dental one/ motor from the late 1800s.... It had phenolic veins. Not spring-loaded just centrifugal force.
It would pull about 26 in of vacuum when hooked up to my drill press for testing.
And if I put air into it, very powerful motor. As an air motor I would have to give it a little spin because it was centrifugal force that held the veins out
The vanes were phenolic on mine and showed almost no wear.
With modern materials like perhaps Teflon vanes, they might last almost forever.
If you reproduce the Supercharger make a bolt on top plate, so Carburetor choices 1, 2, 3 would be easier choice instead of the expensive castings... I hope you go through this... "Iron Trap Supercharger"
The early supercharger stuff is super cool, when I was stationed in Germany I was often informed about 3.0 csl bmw's with McCullough superchargers leaving the Italian exotics in the dust on the autobahn. Tha ks for the video man💪💪👍
Could those vanes be a graphited TUFNOL? An engineering plastic, which is a cloth reinforced Phenol Formaldehyde thermosetting plastic resin, similar to Bakelite, (which was wood dust filled) but a lot tougher. It was used for items such as timing gears on the V6 Ford engines here in the UK. I believe the Allard/Shorrock superchargers used Tufnol blades.
rotary vane pump, all air tool motors... VW vacuum pumps, etc). Vanes made of bakelite - or similar fiber infused composite, as the vanes wear, they conform to the housing. The body casting is eccentric to the rotor - that is where the compression comes from. The Bakelite is fairly aggressive, I have a feeling the aluminum wore out fairly quickly. In air tools, we see hardened steel casings galled and worn relatively quickly. Once vanes have been run in a cylinder/housing, they need to stay with them as they have conformed to the various wear lines, unless you bore the housing and start with new vanes. I am guessing this supercharger was relatively slow speed/low boost compared to the overall engine RPM - an equivalent air tool with same design (albeit smaller) regularly run above 20,000-25,000. Very cool idea from an era where this technology would be relatively inexpensive. Thank you for sharing this!!
Did you all know that the first application of a supercharger to an automobile use was done by Lee Sherman Chadwick of Philadelphia and Pottstown PA? The Great Chadwick Six was the first automobile to use a supercharger. Mr. Chadwick was inspired by the use of superchargers in the mining industry.
google ... Becker rotary vane vacuum pump... same design. the critical dimensions are the end travel and the rotor to housing clearance - typically 0.004 - 0.008" overall travel (50/50) and 0.002-0.004" rotor to housing. thats on a vacuum pump. being aluminum the tolerances will differ due to different expansion steel vs. aluminum . the vanes are a special carbon fiber. It is typical for foreign objects to enter and cause destruction. the rotor you can weld and machine and balance- the main housing you can hone, but it will affect your clearance. the vanes must slide free and easy - the only lubrication is on the bearings. find someone local to you that sells / repairs vacuum pumps -
Back in the 90s we purchased a Company called Rotocold from the UK who made rotary vane compressors used for material handling and refrigeration. We renamed it Rotovane and set up a factory in Utica, NY to manufacture them. Unfortunately, we ran into several problems with the manufacture of them, and eventually the plant closed. The issue with these types of compressors are they require extremely tight tolerances in machining all the parts as when all fitted together the centrelines of the main housing and bearing end caps must all align perfectly. Additionally, there is the issue of sealing of the ends of the rotor and blades to the end caps. Again, to seal, especially without a lubricant like used in refrigeration, is difficult, and tolerances become crucial. Not something a run of the mill machine shop can likely do. We purchased state of the art top end CNC machines from Okuma as well as high end measuring equipment and still had issues yet in the UK they had non CNC old school equipment, but it really came down to their knowledge and experience.
Try to find Tony Sparacino who used to work for Jerry Verona he knows all about that stuff. He was running late models out of my hometown Roxborough. Great Video never saw that supercharger. Oops maybe Moe would know also who used to turn wrenches for the Murray’s!!!
That is sweeet! Man I wonder if they ever made one for a Lincoln v12?… hat looks like it would be a good design for one.
Somewhere you might reach out to is S.T.A.R. senior tour auto racers or N.E.A.R. new England antique racers i use to race with them in a 34 chevy coupe open wheel modified and I've seen alot of old pictures from way back and I remember seeing something that looked like these on cars! They use to run whatever they wanted and I know for a fact that people did whatever they could to be the fastest! Can't hurt to ask. Hope this helps
Bobby Marshman died at Phoenix, AZ in 1964 after a bad wreck. He was testing tires for Firestone. He is buried in Limerick, PA with his daddy.
The vanes are possibly made of Morganite, which is the material that generator brushes are made of, and you know that generator brushes can last quite a while.
Morganite is made in different degrees of hardness, which changes whether the brush or the thing it runs against wears more.
There's probably type of plastic these days that would work ok. One of the industrial plastic suppliers would have an idea what might work.
@b1g1lz could talk to a vacuum pump manufacturer for ga aircraft same basic design
The Blower shop could Probably make you new Teflon strips, Or install something for you ,Its worth every dime.
You can check with Fruit land Vacuum Pumps. They make the vanes and might make some for you. Don't over complicate your thoughts on this. It is a very simple design.
David Richards can help you with all your supercharger restoration needs, parts or machining:
ruclips.net/video/T8_lbSd1mdk/видео.html
He could machine the vane slots on his shaper at 10:00, or his planner at 11:06, or his milling machine at 14:00, or his line bore at 30:10.
Dave also has a bobbed 34 (?) Ford truck powered by a nailhead Buick.
I ran a Shorrock Centrifugal Supercharger fort a few years, it had cast iron blades/vanes which suffered from wear, they were, after I sold it, replaced with teflon tipped blades, they lasted longer, I believe. The biggest issue was excess heat, especially at the back of the engine.
are those quick change rear ends on the shelf behind you from Frankland Racing? my step-father made the castings for those back in the day, i used to pour the aluminum and also deliver them to Ruskin, Fla ..... god, i wish those days were still here !!!!
I think the vanes are bakalite, an early form of plastic. There are other RUclipsrs who do casting and machining that you could team up with Abom79 is a machinist and I remember Kieth Rucker having a person who cast some things for him.