6 months update: Still running very well. A bit more noise than stock.... but otherwise the improved response and cooling outweighs the noise many times over. I would therefore recommend this mod unless you prefer the transmission to be as quiet as possible when launching the bike from a dead stop.
FIFTYmil I have a a couple questions I know u cover most of them in ur videos but I'm fairly new to this and my 50cc is mad slow what are quick and easy ways to modify it to make it faster that I can just do or remove what parts to make it less restricted without harming it cuz I need to use it and same time just can't manage it being that slow
easiest is to remove variator ring, some carbs have a plate to reduce airflow remove it, and maybe play with jets those are the easiest, you can also remove the restriction in the exhaust
Like the bell mod, but the rear pulley isn't opening up to allow the belt to drop down coming out of the hole. Your belt is riding the high side all the time in the video. When this happens, you loose low end torque. Once your into the WOT cruising range its not noticeable because your belt is already there on the high outer side of the pulley. Its like driving a stick and taking off in 3rd gear. I'm sure this also played a part into the clutch over heating....
1/ your clutch pads are worn but not completely gone, however you need to remove grey material from pad end, and remove with scotch bright pad the glaze, 2/ your belt on run up bench test is refusing to move up or down the bell on clutch and variator, at rest, (ie not running ) the belt at front or left, should be sitting on spindle centre shaft, and be touching the bell sides, on start up the belt should take up a more 1\3 to 1\2 way up bell face, upon acceleration the belt should rise up to the top or widest point apart on bell, while reducing to centre on rear clutch end, nothing is happening why ?. could you take a look and see what the problem is, like bell polished faces to close together acting as friction brakes instead of driving up to the top or edge as in normal operation in other words they swap positions when running,?.
I received an email about how this modification essentially polishes the variator face and does no good for belt slippage. I would like to clarify that this modification absolutely does not affect the variator at all. The variator is located in a different part of the transmission all together. This is the clutch bell which is directly connected to the final drive gears and out to the wheels. When the inner clutch assembly spins to a set RPM it engages the clutch friction pad onto the clutch bell and provides the propulsion that moves the scooter forward. What I removed is the outer layer of the clutch bell to increase cooling efficiency and reduce rotating mass. Hope that helps!
The only positive thing to what you did here was resurfacing the inner lip that the shoes make contact with as it was glazed. Reducing the bell thickness can cause it to warp due to excessive heat on the thinner gauge metal which in return will allow it to slip and glaze over more easily. only resurface the glazed area on the inside lip.
The actual bell thickness wasn't reduced. Instead, the outer housing was removed which I now associate its purpose with noise reduction. If you take a look at race scooter bell housings, many do without that outer piece. Evidently, my clutch is a bit more noisier now. Given that the thickness and property of the metal wasn't changed significantly, warping should be (and is so far) a non-issue. The lighter weight of the clutch bell not only helps it accelerate and decelerate faster (leading to less heat generated and less temperature fluctuations which causes warping) and so far I haven't seen the overheating symptoms reoccur ever since the modification. I do plan to further add lateral grooves on the clutch housing to increase surface area for every better cooling.
Good advice and I do indeed have one already! Just prefer using the variator tool to set the torque when tightening the nuts back up and ended up not taking my impact out at all.
it will allso help to sand down the brakepad material on the slippers so there matt again , this allso helps against the screaming of the clutch if the brakematerial is glazed it whont grab as well and create a lot more heat reducing the mass of the flywheel allso reduces the amount of heat it can hold untill it will deform , from wat i can see on the video the axle holdingthe flywheel is slightly bend making it go round in two different planes if you make the slippers heavier and the springs heavier the amount of slippage untill it grabs fully might be shorter mounting slippers with more heatresistand brake lining might help too
Not a bad idea at all to deglaze the friction pads. However, this was just a temporary fix and I have upgraded the clutch since then to accomodate the extra rpm and power.
Here's what probably happened. Most likely the surface of the inner clutch was glazed to begin with, and the simple resurfacing of the bell was enough to get the shoes to properly bed in, reducing slippage and all the heat in the first place. It had nothing to do with the weight reduction or removal of the outer ring. Centrifugal clutches usually don't slip passed a certain rpm and cooling is irrelevant passed the first few seconds of setting off, so the fact that your clutch bell got so hot in the first place means that a whole lot of unnecessary slipping was going on in the first place. I also just did this to my own Piaggio for not the exact same reason, but the shoes were slipping nonetheless under high load and I risked burning up the clutch had I not done so.
Here is the fallacy in your assumption: "Centrifugal cluthes usually don't slip past a certain rpm and cooling is irrelevant past the first few seconds of setting off." I wrote clearly in the description that the combination of stiffer clutch engagement spring (oem 3000rpm, aftermarket 6000RPM) and repeated clutch engagement in stop & go traffic resulted in overheating. Cooling in this case is, therefore, extremely relevant. Resurfacing of the bell without the modification would result in the same overheating outcome in a short time. In contrast, the weight reduction and quicker dissipation of heat allowed the clutch to be more suitable in the modified spring/stop&go conditions I described above.
"In contrast, the weight reduction and quicker dissipation of heat allowed the clutch to be more suitable in the modified spring/stop and go conditions I described above." That doesn't make any sense. Reducing the mass only means that your clutch bell is going to heat up faster and be more prone to overheating (see the term: Specific Heat), in the same way that larger vehicles require heavier (not lighter) brake discs in order to prevent brake fade.
Comparing brake to clutch further demonstrates your lack of understanding and tendency to confuse concepts in physics. I would strongly suggest reviewing your knowledge of how brakes and clutch work to achieve a deeper understanding. Also, please note that you appear to be unaware of a few critical points of this modification 1) while the clutch bell mass was reduced, thickness of the inner bell wasn't (significantly, albeit minor surface rust removal). That is, the clutch remains exactly the same with or without the outer housing. In fact, the outerhousing is only attached at the weld points. In between the outer and inner housing is air - one of the best insulator of heat. Therefore, the outer housing further traps heat, reduce airflow, and prevent heat dissipation. 2) A reduction in mass of the overall clutch bell results in less work required to accelerate from a standstill to matching engine speeds, thus less work is required and less friction is made. If what you said about brake discs were true for flywheels, then no one would want to purchase a lighter flywheel for their car/motorcycle. That seems to be quite the contrary as a lighter flywheel is almost the first modification made to stock and modified engines with significantly more horsepower.
"I would strongly suggest reviewing your knowledge of how brakes and clutch work to achieve a deeper understanding." All I can say is to check your attitude at the door, otherwise there's no discussion to be had.
Having had snowmobiles in the 80's, you don't want to remove the cover off of the clutch. It is there for extra heat dissipation and to help if the clutch disintegrates. I hope you did not have any problems.
Rather than a lathe and grinder, you can remove that outer sleeve by using a 1/4 inch end Mill chucked in a hand drill. Just lock the rear brake with the belt cover off, cover anywhere you don't want chips entering with masking tape (vent holes in clutch drum) and a rag or 2 (everything else) then slowly, carefully chew away those 3(in your example) spot welds holding the sleeve on the drum. Run the drill at low speed, do one at a time, and brace yourself. A cheap end Mill is fine, no need for carbide, fine cut, etc. 4 flute is better than 2. Go just deep enough to break the weld button. If you already have a drill, but no lathe or grinder, it's far cheaper. If you have a grinder you can mask the same way for chips, and just carefully spot grind those welds also, then clean up with brake cleaner, no lathe required.
Very good advice - A drill will work just as fine as a grinder. However, for convenience sake I would remove the bell housing completely as it only involves one nut, provided you have the right tools.
FIFTYmil I suggested leaving it in place (the clutch bell) because locking the rear brake will hold it immobile, allowing the use of both hands to steady the tool, assuming a bench vise might not be available for many viewers. Undoubtedly removal and vise holding is the RIGHT way to do it, but not all have that option. Masking and covering will keep chips and such out of spots they'll do harm, and a can of brake cleaner will wash away the chunks hell-bent on causing problems, lol. That bell of yours got FRIED! That's actually indicative of dragging shoes in many cases, but lots of short motion stop and go in hot conditions will obviously cause it too. I'd double check the air inlet on the cover for flow restriction, and even be tempted to vent the rear of the cover to allow more air flow, though that can be problematic as well. Great fix though, I just figured I'd offer up a method for the more tooling impoverished who might decide to forego the fix because they lacked higher end gear.
Absolutely, your method should work equally well. The bell overheated because a) I am using a non-oem stiffer clutch engagement spring and b) I was riding a lot in stop and go traffic. Reasonably, that is equivalent to driving a manual car in stop and go traffic dumping the clutch @ 6000RPM every single time just to move an inch. Overheating is unavoidable as that is the bane of auto clutch. To reduce overheating I improved ventilation and also modified the clutch bell housing for a temporary fix. If budget is no concern I would purchase an aftermarket bell clutch housing and clutch pads that have the necessary strength to endure higher rpm launch.
FIFTYmil ahhh, ok like running a drag torque converter in commuter traffic, gotcha! The downside of streeting high po parts no matter what vehicle type, that evil Lord Kelvin
The clutch pads look a little worn to me personally and that may attribute to most of your slipping. Besides that, I am curious how well they stood up to the bead blasted internal surface. Although it definitely would increase grip by the multitudes it just sacrifices the life of the clutch pads tremendously. Without a smooth clutching surface it’s pretty akin to sanding the pads every time you take off.
The bead blasting did not make a significant difference to match your example of sanding the pads down everytime I take off. Most of the slipping was attributed to the stiffer clutch springs installed and subsequently higher transmission case temperatures.
You need to watch a video here on RUclips somewhere showing a scooter clutch exploding! Guy was revving the engine about like you were here, not too high or anything and...wham! It totally shattered the cvt case and part of the swingarm...there was almost nothing left of the clutch. I had no idea that could happen until I watched that video. Hit me up if you can't find it if interested and I will look for it.
some modification put thicker ring to prevent it from getting out of shape, that thing is what prevents your bell from getting oval. what you need to do is put some thread like line inside the bell for gripping not just put some patter or scratches to make it grip that will kill your clutch pad for sure, it will give you the best grip because of the thread like line and also avoids your pad from getting worn out.
Please link to "some modification put thicker ring" and describe clearly how "Thread like line" instead of "Scratches" will improve clutch engagement and reduce clutch wear.
@@FIFTYmil i have some photos if you want, since I don't have any link because I made the machine shop do the work for me. the thread line will engage much better, also because of the thick ring, I've been using my bell for almost 3 years now without any dragging result.
@@zenargaming1257 That's very interesting. I like the idea of the grooves in the clutch bell to faciliate the removal of clutch dust which could reduce clutch pad engagement, much similar to the positive results from having slots in brake rotors.
@@FIFTYmil what I did with the machine shop is to angle my drive phase and pulley to 13.6dgree and groove the trail of the roller to maximize the push of the pulley, change roller to 10g, change spring to a hard one and you already saw my bell, from 119kph top speed it is now running maximum of 135kph. that only cost me 47$ labor in the machine shop. that's here in the philippines, i don't know how much machine shop cost in your country.
I'm willing to bet that sheet metal was installed by the manufacturer as a safety. If over spun and clutch bell had a stress crack it does heat cycle like crazy without the sheet metal it's a gernade explodes throwing shrapnel. The sheet metal would help it not explode as easy. Plus removing metal it's just gonna heat up quicker and your clutch shoes were glazed over take some emery cloth to em remove the glaze it'll ruduce your slippage issue some
braxton barrett unfortunately you appear to have bet wrong. No “crazy heat cycle, cracking, grenade explosion throwing shrapnel” was observed as you mentioned. An outer ring also have significant gaps in between meaning it would not have any use as a heat sink insulted by the air between the two metal surfaces.
Not to be that guy, but that ring is a reinforcement so the clutch bell wont be deformed by the heat or, when you have a high power output, even explode. Buy a new 107mm clutchbell with coolingwings and made out of an harder material. :)
bulletgt3 not to be that guy, but your speculations doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon. Also if you read the description or comments those solutions you’ve listed have been extensively discussed already ;)
Small holes in a zig pattern but spaced out so you don't weaken it to much do this on a spar cluch plate so you don't mess up a good one I'd probably space them out every 1/2" or what ever will even the holes out
How do you exactly drill each hole out so they are not off by a thousandth of an inch. Also, how do you make sure the zigzag pattern is straight and the drill bit is exactly perpendicular to the clutch surface?
Would love to see your airbox modification. I like how clean your's looks. I'm a little confused by all the hoses that are on the stock airbox and where they all go after the modification. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
+Chris Taylor Hey Chris, I get that question a lot. I'll try to get a video uploaded on here to talk about the airbox mod shortly. Stay tuned. To help you out though, depending on the year of your ruckus, there will be a few hoses that are there for reducing emissions. One hose connects to the front of the engine PAIR valve (where the exhaust port is) and feeds exhaust gas back into the airbox to re-use. Cap that off. The second one goes to the carburetor's side port and provides atmospheric air pressure for the CV carb to operate. Add a filter to it. Finally, if you have a 06+ model, there is a PCV valve for the crankcase. Add a filter to the end of the hose and/or relocate the entire assembly. For the PCV valve itself I made carbon fiber pieces for so I relocated the entire assembly and made it look a bit cleaner
+FIFTYmil Can't wait to see it. Your description is good, however a vid would give me much more confidence! Thank you so much for taking the time to help us all out!! Where do I order the smaller filters for the ends of the hoses? I've got a UNI Pod filter that comes directly off the back of the card. Should I go ahead and get one with a 90 degree hose like the one you have?
Chris Taylor Thanks for the kind words. Can't wait for the snow to melt here to pull the bikes out. You can get the (KN RU-3490) fitted directly onto the pcv solenoid valve but it is money. Considering that Honda just used a sponge as filter, I didn`t worry too much about it and just left it to vent out into the atmosphere.
Chris Taylor Dyno graphs have shown that the CV types of carb responds significantly better with an intake snorkel to smooth out the airflow. Putting a filter directly in the carb makes the incoming air too turbulent. Regardless, I would just try the filter on the carb first to see if you like it since you already have it. I`ve tried both personally myself and like the intake snorkel setup more. The snorkel I`m using it just the shorter version Honda Metropolitan/Jazz OEM intake tube. Your Honda Ruckus oem snorkel works too!
You remove material on the outside but need to refinish the inside and get new pads that's the issue it slipping which is causing heat soak. Removing material will only effect rotational mass.
Yes the inside and friction pads were bead blasted to remove glazing. However, that is not the issue its slipping. You must understand the root cause, which was stiffer clutch springs. No matter how many times you refinish the inside and get newer pads it would not change anything.
Quite the opposite, the chance of drilling "evenly spaced" and "same sized" holes to ensure the bell remains balanced is nearly impossible to achieve. I would definitely avoid that suggestion.
+ FIFTYmil I like your attitude and the way you deal with the haters and negative comments. If I (and many others, in fact) could adopt your live and let live philosophy, You tube would be a much better place! AS for those who have the "Mine is better/stronger/faster than yours" thing going on, they're all 50cc scooters for Pete's sake, and you're not going to get light-speed out of them no matter how you try so if you want to really go faster, get a bigger engine! There's only so much you can get out of 50cc! And good to see the use of the proper tool to hold the clutch rotor when undoing the centre nut. excellent!
roythearcher thanks for the encouraging comment. Tuning a 50cc is extremely fun and running the bike at full throttle at 50mph is definitely a unique experience that even my Ducati at 120mph can not offer. I appreciate critical comments but unfortunately can not accept ones who simply calls me dumb and don't explain or explains with an incorrect theory. Those I must respond with the same level (or lack of) respect
I hear you! Round here where I live there's only a few roads that you would be able to do more than the legal limit on without getting into all sorts of trouble and are ideally suited to smaller, lighter machines to get the best out of. Fireblades and R1's are wasted round here! but a 250 ninja, now, that's a whole different thing! Scooters would be better suited to our local roads if not for all the pot-holes and their small wheels. Not the best combination! My bike is a Honda ST1100 by the way!!! hardly small......er..!
if you take off the clutch bell and match a drill bit to the 6 holes in in and angle cut it so that it drags air into the clutch I find that it helps alot
I would guess that removing material from the clutch bell will mean that as there is less mass the bell would heat up faster but on the flip side of that it would cool down faster as it has less mass so it would not act as such a heat sink that's perhaps why you found an improvement after removing the weight/material from the bell. It would also remove weight from the rotating parts so everything should spin up faster as you have said, it would be like using a lighter wheel or a lighter flywheel/variator.
That's correct. Less material means that the surface can dissipate heat accumulated from friction faster. The lighter mass was a huge benefit to reducing the overal rotating mass of the clutch bell resulting in more immediately response
@@FIFTYmil Yeah, right. The dudes who design computers must be idiots to put massive copper heatsinks on processors, with hundreds of fins, instead of mounting a single foil which according to you, it would disipate the heat, better, isn't it? Where did you learn mechanics and physics? In a ditch, or in a swamp?
The intake pipe you’re running you described as Honda Jazz/Metropolitan shorty intake with K&N filter. That pipe looks a lot like the Tokyo Parts (Zoomania) shiort intake pipe. I have a kit made by them coming to me in a few days from Japan. It is made for the Honda ruckus/zoomer and should fit pre 2012 metro’s. Where did you get yours? 78 main jet worked good for you? Idle Jet, did you use stock 35 or did you use a 38? Thanks
The shorter intake tube is from the jazz/metro directly ordered from any honda motorcycle dealership! I didn't change the idle jet but the main jet was changed significantly
@@FIFTYmil Thanks for getting back to me on the pipe. I see it was used on the pre 2013 metro’s. You stated on the video you changed the main jet to a 78. Stock is 75, the diameter on a 78 is .001 larger than on a 75. Does yours idle well with the stock pilot jet? I’m suprised it isn’t running lean at lower rpm’s. I have 38/80 jet’s on my similar setup. Runs well.
@@Ethan.s.. Yes the intake snorkel for both ruckus and metro have changed over the years. The short stubby one was pre 2013 or 2015 as you said. Regarding the jets, it could largely be due to how far you live from sea level. However, a well known tuner and Honda mechanic by the name of Chanito from ruckus central back in the days found that in most circumstances you don't need to modify the pilot jet if the idle mix is tuned properly. He is also the inventor of the Wiseco 58cc big bore piston. I also arrived at the same conclusion after properly adjusting the idle mixture screw. It is a D shaped screw
@@FIFTYmil Thanks for the input. I am familiar with Chanito and also the fuel mixture knob. My understanding was it could make about a 1 size change up or down on the pilot jet. 38 works well for me with out adjusting the fuel mixture. Good to know what you did to get yours dialed in. I’m at around 600 ft above sea level.
the spanner wrench you have there has the incorrect pin size and it's nearly impossible to hold with one hand were as a band wrench or chain wrench or oil flt. wrench can be held with one hand and be able to deliver 55ft.lb to the nut as per factory spec. when demo.vid.is made it's nice to include all the info and options so nobody is guessing as what will bite them down the road
William Volkmann wrong. that is in fact a dedicated variable and clutch removal tool made by kitaco for the Honda ruckus. Instead, your suggestion of a oil filter wrench is often associated with breaking off the variation fin when it slips (which happens more often than a dedicated variator tool). Finally, this is not a how-to video but merely to document what I did. Disclaimer is provided in the description at your own risk
If you realize that the angle grinder barely took any material off and only cleaned up the spot welds on the face then you'll realize this world is not always black and white as well.
@@FIFTYmil no its pretty black and white, granted it was already warped so your not really gonna make it worse then it already was. your clearly removing some metal to blend it out and no matter how hard you try, you will not do it evenly the way you did it. even if you turn the part it still would be unbalanced due to it being warped. don't believe me take it off find a straight rod that is a good fit on the id thru hole. set up two parallel surface that are flat and have the rod resting across them. mark one spot with a sharpie. ill bet 1000$ usa that if you rest it in any index position it will roll and that mark will return to the same position showing its not balanced. this will cause more wear on bearings. also since you ground it you also made the thickness different all around it. it will not heat up evenly any more . metal expands and contracts based on temp , having areas thicker and thinner they will expand and contract at different rates. im a machinist that does r&d for automotive tech. you'd be surprised what a few grams of unbalance rotating mass does.
@@warwickben I appreciate the long response you've provided (which was TL:DR) but you do realize that the clutch bell comes new from Honda not perfectly balanced right? While I understand you stress the importance of a finely balanced rotating mass, you must also consider the context and purpose of the component. If you re-watch the video and look at how much mass removing the outer bell relative to the "cosmetic touch up" in the end that you seem to dwell on, you would realize how little material, if any, was taken off. There are tolerances that are acceptable without "messing bearings up" within service intervals. So once again, not exactly black and white.
Except when you were grinding it you could see the shape of the surface changing and the visible material flying away 😉 😏 go buy a new one buddy yours is fucked
so what effect you gain on this modification? i also have Honda Vario Matic 110cc modified engine, my problem is on top speed, just reach 133km/h with 8.6 second for 200 meters acceleration. i still confused with those mechanism to make it 150km/h.. and i think i am interested to put supercharger on it but i still learn how to put it there and plus minus effects for long distances..
Mostly it cured my problem with overheating the clutch but due to the reduced rotational mass I also gained slightly improved throttle roll on/clutch engagement response. If you want to have more top speed, the first question is does your engine have enough power to achieve those speeds? The second question is your transmission capable of handling a higher top speed? What is your peak horspower RPM? What sort of RPM are you seeing at 133km/h?
Lower roller weights will definitely hurt fuel economy but provider better acceleration and top speed by operating the engine at closer to peak horsepower rpm.
If you want to decrease the stall rate (the RPM) that the clutch engages you need to increase the weight of the clutch pads or reduce the tension of the springs that retain the clutch pads that THROW OUT
Yep before the grinding when you can see the blue from the heat the outer shell of the bell is separated from the contact surface 👌 😳 the new one is super wavy at the rev up shot at the end.
The slippage might be an issue for me. I feel like I get a slip and grab on takeoff.. It's not the roller waits or the belt, Belt was just replaced, Roller waits were checked and inspected, as well reset. What was the name of the style product you used on the inside? Also, Do you think the outer casing you removed was considered a balancer of any sort? Like balancing rims and tires etc?
Just a tip be carefull with the vario cause its on the crankshaft. Yout basicly slamming the piston around in the cilinder. I wont say that it really damages it but in scooter tuning every risk to lose power isnt a risk we take. sry if my grammar is a little off 😅
+NguyenThai1980 I weigh 185lbs give or take. The weight of the sliders really depends on how much power your engine puts down and where the power is made. I'm using 4.4g weights on a 4 stroke ruckus 49cc engine. The dyno suggest most power being made between 8500-9300RPM for these particular AF58 engines. Targeting the right roller weights to accelerate in that power band achieves the best acceleration. So therefore, the less power the engine makes, the lighter weights you'll need to achieve operating the engine in that powerband. Hope that makes sense!
+FIFTYmil sorry bro that's incorrect. weights inside of your variator are chosen based off of a multitude of different variations and variables first off gear ratios size of your variator to the size of your clutch second elevation third train in about a gazillion others what you've done to your ruckus I agree is pretty smart but also pretty stupid because unless you get that thing powder-coated your now subjecting that clutch bell housing to rust which in turn would cause your springs to rust, to become weakened and judging by your video I noticed that you rev your engine once and the clutch didn't catch when you read that again then it caught with suggest the springs inside of the clutch or possibly the contours spring itself personally its 40 bucks I would have got a new clutch as for the casing on your ruckus I've never been particularly fond of them having the clutch and the variator sunken into the case like that they're more apt to heat up due to poor ventilation which is why most of our traditional gy6 139qmb engine they're more exposed the Kevlar belt despite most people's beliefs do not help in any way but to make it last longer I have a 50cc Chinese scooter that does 60mph however that is just a drag bike my recommendation is stopped slapping things on your scooter because he saw them on RUclips and it looked cool though you do have the gist of the information but you don't have the knowledge behind that that air intake you have is pointless it's a glorified air filter that's made to look cool in that Honda Gy 6 engine is putting out the same amount of horsepower as the guy down the street who has a wildfire or the Teo Teo
+Ryan Bliss You honestly lost me at TeoTeo. I have no idea what that is but let me try to help you out. First, you said "weights depends on elevation." Do you know why elevation matters? Because elevation determines how much power your engine is able to put down. I have mentioned this already and you are merely repeating my point. It appears you don't understand your concepts well enough. Second, you recommend powder coating a clutch bell which is subject to extreme friction aka heat. Powder coating would not stand up to the heat. Ceramic coating, which i assume you were suggesting, would be counter intuitive as you would want your clutch bell to dissipate heat, not retain it. 6 months in and not a single sign of rust. I can achieve that because I run an original OEM honda drive belt cover with rubber gaskets designed by Honda engineers with a proper degree, and not a replica chinese knock off GY6. Apart from belt dust there's nearly no moisture significant enough to cause rust. Speaking from experience owning a gy6 myself, apart from providing cheap power it doesn't come close to Honda engineering or any real motorcycle manufacturer for that matter. Third, your observation on my clutch not catching further shows your ignorance in scooter tuning. Obviously you would know I have replaced the pair stock clutch springs with stiffer ones. If you don't know, stiffer clutch springs allows for a higher RPM engagement. I am quite skeptical of your claims achieving 60mph on a chinese clone 50cc without even knowing this basic knowledge. Finally, the filter swap alone, while I agree is cosmetically appealing, forced me to increase the size of my MJ. That alone suggests more air going to the engine before I even pull out my dyno graphs to show you. Need I say more?
+FIFTYmil ok some knowledge for your first of all most things that are powder coated or subject to extreme heat aka engine blocks which on a be able to stand right around 500 to 1200 degrees that's the number one number to ceramic coating there is no difference ceramic coating is the same as powder coating except ceramic inside the powder powder coating is work by positively charging the paint particles and negatively charging the object of a powder coating number 2 if the clutch bell housing is getting hot then it is holding heat if it is cold and that means deflecting heat everybody knows that running a cold engine is better than running a hot engine if your retarded ass would understand that you wouldn't have this problem you're having now and engaging your springs at a higher rpm what good does that do my spy of a standard 1500 rpm contours to bring in my scooters you don't need to engage your scooter at 2000 rpms because your scooter is not nearly powerful enough for that you're not going to see any difference in anything other than your take off so Mr know it all congratulations and maybe just maybe if you got off of Hondas dick you would understand and getting them bigger main jet that's a f****** retarded things because you can just buy a large main jet and use your standard air box with it and don't say you can't because I've done it and really dude jump up to a 95 jet you get a whole lot more power and judging by the size of your freaking wrist and the way your hands look there's no way or 180 pounds if you are here like 3 foot tall
I was, however, initially concerned whether it would lead to premature warping of the clutch bell. I got lucky and I think it is doing rather fine thus far
5g vari rollers and 1k to 2k Springs should do the same thing. Or if you want to spend money there are plenty of higher end clutch bells. Might as well go with pollini seeing as you've already invested in the belt. Just an opinion but I like to see people trying things out for themselves to see what works out.
Good advice. In fact, I have 4.7g slider weights and 3.5K clutch springs installed already but it was really the 3.5K springs and stop&go traffic that overheated the clutch bell and led me to this mod. My option was to install a better ventilated clutch bell or experiment with the existing one. Turns out the stock one was able to achieve the same result if not better and will become even more lighter than the aftermarket ones!
Fiftymil I noticed that when i first tried to set off, i had to pull the revs full on before it started to move , then when i eventually stopped i had to have both brakes before it stopped. Thanks
Clutch pads are within service specs - the clutch slipping is directly a result of stiffer clutch springs resulting is more aggressive launching rpm. Understandably the original friction material weren't designed for repeated high rpm launches.
@@Thedeaconoftrade Exactly, not much material was removed from the actual bell. The weight difference is entirely due to the removal of the outer ring.
William Volkmann wrong. Partial throttle paired with relatively low variator weights and stiffer clutch springs explains your observation. Rolling on the throttle doesn’t necessary cause the transmission to upshift immediately
i wouldn't modify stock parts but instead buying parts suitable from your use case. engineers at honda did rng to make sure stock parts are reliable and economical especially at speed
those stock clutch pads are stupid soft. they are a weird material. thats why you have a lot of heat buildup, they slip too much you could try another brand clutch that uses better clutch pad material but other clutches could weigh more. adding more rotating weight its a fine line when you do start lightening parts because you can loose top speed but gain acceleration when doing that.
it would be an entire new clutch stage 6 or koso is a good one, I know you can use the cheap gy6 50cc clutches too but you will need a small shim spacer for any aftermarket one you use but that part is not hard to make, or find to buy I've tried the gy6 3 shoe clutch and bell before, it is heavier and I felt it lowered my acceleration speed. really saw no other gains from using it even tried speed test up steep hill. but it should use better pad material and you can find more contra springs for the gy6 and if you didnt know people have used the zuma 50cc 2 stroke pink clutch springs on the stock ruckus clutch. it is a lot stiffer, will make you rev higher to accelerate from a stop but change when you get into the power band and for that engine it makes the most power around 8200 rpm. usually try to tune your clutch springs, rollers to get into that area when taking off from a dead stop and accelerating hard
yep using the zuma clutch springs already.. which is why I overheated the stock clutch in heavy traffic. Dyno graphs prove otherwise, I found much more horsepower beyond 9000RPM and above the rev limiter. I will consider a better clutch in the future perhaps! but the cost to swap a gy6 into the ruckus (which I have already) was a more economically and reversible mod than any one of the GET aftermarket choices.
I do believe, that ring is for safety. The hardened clutch can shatter into pieces and that ring stop's them from flying out. Now your heat "issues" is normal working of a friction clutch, (as brakes on a car). All these parts have a life, and when they wear or burn change them. I don't think this is a positive mod, best of luck.
That is a positive analysis. I originally thought that the ring is for safety. However several points to consider that may rejects your hypothesis 1) Please notice many oem clutch bells and aftermarket ones do not have that ring but rather just a solid piece (as the one you see in this video after ring removal). 2) On-road testing past 3000+km now with no adverse reaction. The only difference is more noise. Some have postulated that the ring is to reduce clutch noise. Noise reduction seems to be the primary purpose of the ring 3) In the event the clutch shatters, the belt cover should be sufficient to prevent flying shrapnels. Which defeats the purpose of OEM designing a ring for a repeated safety. I reject your opinion on the heat "issue" being normal. It is the added results of 1) aftermarket stiffer clutch springs, 2) tires with significantly more grip, 3) sustained higher rpm riding and 4) slight increase in horsepower. All of these factors contribute to significant heat increase for both the clutch and the entire transmission resulting in system failure.
@@FIFTYmil I think you are trying to defend your theory with very little research. Try some of the chatrooms regarding this issues, witch I have looked into , and was given GOOD Advice by different people. To look at springs, weights, pads. ETC. And replace it. Now attacking a clutch bell with a grinder and removing the sound suppressor, you would call it, might have more than one purpose.
Perhaps you took my reply too personally and feel insulted. Instead of expressing what you think on whether my research is little or a lot, why not try to present a rebuttal with facts as I have? I have presented the facts to support the theory. Feel free to reject those facts with sufficient evidence.
nice work! a question, wouldn't have taking the bell out and grinding the clutch would have caused some balance problem at high rpm and possible cause the clutch to slip ? did you experience any think different on high rpm
Boostmaker, that was one of my biggest concerns when experimenting with this. However, I have put nearly 3000km on the bike now and anything between 0- 10,800RPM with no negative effects. Upon inspection after removing the outer ring, there is no evidence of any balancing done on the clutch bell. On the balancing machine, the clutch stayed true after modification.
+FIFTYmil good to know. I've got a sym hd200, recently I've put in 12grm Dr pulley sliders. I'm yet to check the rpm so I feel of might have a little bit slipping during fast take off and was thinking of drilling extra holes to lighten the clutch bell. I should be tell If my clutch is slipping or not once I get my small rpm tacho delivered
boostmaker A little slip is good! Don't worry too much. The problem for me started when I replaced the clutch springs with stiffer ones. This forced the clutch to engage at a higher rpm. While it is a nice modification, repeated stop and go traffic accumulates a lot of heat and resulted in overheating
boostmaker regarding drilling holes into the clutch, I would be wary about that because it is difficult to take exactly the same amount of material off everytime you drill and the location you drill. This might make the clutch imbalanced.
Wached this you never did any thing to the real clutch you just r sufficed a fly wheel . The clutch pads and spring do the real work. And you never even rift up the pads that would of given you the best improvement and vary little work
Almost 100g reduction in weight of the flywheel is "not doing anything" but apparently rifting up the pads is - because the pads will stay rift up the first time and every time there after...#mindblown
The improvements was primarily less clutch fade after repeated engagement in stop and go traffic. Aside from that, other improvements were small but noticeable.
FIFTYmil are yes yes I haven’t fitted yet but what you just said I notice that in traffic sometimes slight clutch fade I’m running a delta clutch on the Bell that’s fine but I’ll try it today and my belt is at it lowest position and highest at the rear that I never ever fort of the rear pulley was very stiff no free after I rear grease it what a improvement in lower end and top end
increased clutch wear was the result of higher launch rpm, not because of this modification. In fact, the reduced clutch bell weight would aid in reducing clutch wear as less mass is being moved.
Making the holes bigger is not a solution as you can't guarantee all holes will be the same size within tolerance, but purchasing a more robust aftermarket clutch is definitely an option if you have the money.
FIFTYmil it's just because I've seen people take clutch bells to a mill and widening the holes, and then cutting small slots and bending them up to make "fins" that act as an intake for air.
+Νικολαος Kαραμπινερης Hey thanks for watching my video. Please subscribe and rate the video if you can do me a huge favor. I don't own a NSS250 myself so my suggestions are not going to be the most helpful. Interestingly, we call the CHF50 jazz here in canada (ALOT slower!). There is a huge forum that can help you out but I could give you some pointers. So first of all, what is it on your bike that you are not satisfied and want an upgrade?
It is quite fast for 250 but I believe that some improvements can be made,also I am having a small issue with the drive belt,it some times spins without proper traction on the clutch. Another thing is that due to the fact that the rear wheel is small in diameter there is a feeling that I might lose control on a turn and there is more wear than should be on the rear tire. Can I and should I lower the shock absorbers in the front,how should I do this? I am considering on removing the filter that returns exaust fumes(the one above the clutch case) and should I install sometinhg else in its place? Any other ideas will be appreciated,at my own risk. Thanks for your reply,much appreciated!!!
Νικολαος Kαραμπινερης You are right. At 250cc, you would almost have everything you need in terms of speed and acceleration for traffic. Of course, making the motorcycle lighter always help improve performance and make it more enjoyable to ride. Apart from weight reduction, I find that often times the original variator weights are a bit heavier than what I like. This is to account for maximizing fuel efficiency. If you like the engine to be a bit more responsive I would consider going down a bit on the variator weights. A good start would be to invest on a tachometer to see what sorts of RPM your engine is operating at. These tachs can be had for as little as 10$ on ebay. Let me know if you would like the link. With the tach installed I would consider trying lighter variator weights, tuned specifically to your riding style.
Νικολαος Kαραμπινερης For the belt slip, I would ask are you 100% sure it's the belt slipping in the CVT transmission? Rarely do they slip unless contaminants are introduced into the system such as oil. They are however the weakest link in the transmission and requires replacement according to the manufacturer recommendation or earlier when they become too thin. Find out how wide your belt is and whether it is within the service limit of the bike. On my scooter there is also a valve that recirculates exhaust gas back into the intake. Ignoring emission concerns and standards for vehicle inspections, I would either cap it off or let it vent into the atmosphere with a small filter at the end. The small filter serves to prevent contaminants from entering back into the engine assuming your bike does not have a one-way exit valve
Holy brother I don't know the size of the cluch plate use a marker to lay a pattern out on the cluch plate to get every thing lined out and put it in a drill press if you have one
I've got a yamaha aerox 155 everything is stock. Want to increase my topspeed since i was always on a longdistance trip. Any suggestion guys about some kind of a modification or aftermarket bolt-on parts to gain more power
You never statwd whay your ingage Ram's were after the modifications if any as all. The fact that by temoving removing meterial from the inside of the clutch housing by bead blasting it also made the total gap inside latger than stock which would mean the actual clutch disks would have to travel furher before engaging with the modified housing. With that being said you woulf still have to rev to a higher than normal rpm to spinthe clutch fast enough to cause enough force to throw the disks out further than normal before engaging. Which wohld mean it wont fis the problem and if so only long enough to get by for a few before it goes completly out because of over streached weak springs that become wore and streached out to the point it holds the break shoe out far enough for it to rub non stop causeing failure and wear to the clutch and to the bike for having to constantly rev at higher rpm's. Id definitely replace it unless its a self adjusting clutch and pretty new. Sorry for the long rant but wouldnt it just be cheaper in the long run to go aheaf and pay for the best top of the line clutch? Im only asking cause im fairley new to his kinda stuff but i love to learn so i watch these kinds of videos
You're correct, this mod is free but also a temporary fix to the underlying issue: Overheating clutch due to increased horsepower and increasing the clutch engagement rpm. 1. Engaging rpm is determined by the clutch springs. They were swapped for stiffer ones and they engage at i believe 5000rpm. 2.Modifying any parts of the clutch bell would not affect the engagement rpm (unless of course the springs weaken over time.) Your speculation about having to rev higher to make up for the larger gap is incorrect. 3. Bead blasting removes nearly no material and definitely does not affect the overall thickness of the clutch bell inner lining. The purpose of the bead blasting roughens up the surface to increase surface area and promote better engagement with the clutch pads. 4. So far I have put about 9000km on the modified clutch bell with no effects you stated. 5. As stated in the video, you're correct the best solution is to change to a better clutch with better friction pads (and possibly more friction pads) and a more robust clutch bell to accept the increased horsepower and higher rpm engagement.
I did Not change the airfilter. That makes it only loud and thirsty. Change the cluch and the bell. On minimal tuned scooters the air will find the way to the carb.
An Open airfilter is usefull on 70 ccm midrace and race Setups not beyont You will have the same result with the ori and an sport Inlay from malossi. Not that loud.
While there is some validity that change is more noticeable with larger cc engines, do you have any solid evidence regarding your statement for 70cc or less? By "same result," are you suggesting absolutely 0% increase in horsepower is found if a less restrictive air filter was used on 70cc or less? I made a series of episode documenting modification to the stock airbox of a 50cc. While it was definitely louder, much more power was made especially at higher RPMs. As I did not have a dyno at that time, "much" more power is defined as increase of 10km/h and 20% improvement in 0-40mph acceleration just with the modification of the airbox and tuning of the carb for extra fuel. How do you account for that observation?
Indeed, therefore suggesting that modification to increase oxygen delivery is insignificant is misleading, unless your have evidence to suggest otherwise because from my experience it made a significant difference quantitatively. However, I would love to hear your opinion what modifications you like on >70cc engines more specifically.
@@FIFTYmil best to tell your insurance , avoid problems ..... After all a mod is just that so you so really need to let insurance know any changes....or they walk away and you end up in an accident paying out if you course injury or loss ...so it's really best to just tell your insurance of any mods.....I enjoyed your film keep up the great work mate ...
@@FIFTYmil that funny, for the most part, they have better products. I got my Chicago 1/2" corded impact gun more then a year ago. it had no problem taking off and on cv axle nuts when I had to replace the cv's on my van. I have a full set of HF torque set. 4 sets of metric sockets. I can tell you the US General Tool boxes are top notch. I don't like over paying and HD and Lowes are over priced.
@@ffieditor Corded and Cordless is two completely different world, and I have both. However, I didn't even have to pay retail price for the DeWalt. Might have even paid less than the inflated price of the chicago corded impact gun.
I know im late but i have a problem with my 4t scooter. I changed the belt to 729 18 30 and now it only gets like 5500-6000 rpm when with the old belt it did around 8000-9000 rpm and im getting a 72cc top end today. And yeah when the scooter rly start going (takes a long time) it gets to about 7000 rpm and top speed with the new belt is 70kmh
@@FIFTYmil well the other is so worn out that its only 15mm wide and the new one is 18mm they are the same length. And i think i found the problem with the rpms the black rubbery thing (dont know whats it called in english) on top of the carburator was assembed by a jackass and it was sticking out of the black cap so it made holes in to it
Thanks for replying it does seem to lug and rev high, when i did get going and tried to stop it was hard to turn round , ihad to hold both brakes on and try to walk it round. hope u can help again cheer,s
Sorry I must not have been clear. When an engine lugs, it would refuse to rev high and stay at a low RPM such as 3000RPM. When an engine revs high you would see 6000+ RPM. Which one did you witness going full throttle from standstill?
To my knowledge scooters usually operate on a CVT automatic transmission. Is that what you have? If that is the case there shouldn't be any gears to select.
Could you do a video on your intake? And maybe your take on if they are worth the money to tune, especially considering that you have to rejet the carburettor when you are modifying the airbox iirc. thanks
+William Winborne Absolutely. Sorry I've been promising to do it but haven't gotten around to the ruckus or typhoon at all this year. I think intake mod is one of the most worthwhile modification to the ruckus especially if you installed a HO cam like me but will definitely make it less friendly to all weather conditions. Dyno findings suggest remarkable increase in horsepower compared to a similar mod such as exhaust. On another note- similar results were found drilling holes into the stock intake box if you're on a budget. While it doesn't look good, it certainly performs (if not outperforms) even a K&N snorkel intake.
Great, thank you so much for the info. I have found variators and intakes are both worthwhile mods. Looking forward to seeing your take on it in video, the drilled holes are interesting!
William Winborne For me, I find that the stock variator performs just fine unless your chasing top speed. Instead, a quick adjustment of the roller weights (10$) transformed the bike completely. They came with weights that are way too heavy for the bike and even Honda was aware of that with lighter weights and a higher RPM limit in the newer models .
For this honda ruckus I have used the Yoshimura cyclone, custom FMF dirt bike exhaust, and now I have reverted back to the stock OEM 2005 exhaust (with the thicker manifold vs 2006+)
+Davin Link I'm currently maxing out at 51.4mph after a very long stretch of road verified by GPS. More importantly however, is the increased frequency which the ruckus is able to hit ~42mph and keep up with traffic. Overall the bike is a lot more rush hour "traffic friendly" now.
In my opinion, as I have replied others, the difference is not significant but definitely noticeable. If I didn't have any issues with the clutch (or if you're trying to extract the best performance out of the scooter at all cost - but in that case I would go with a more robust aftermarket clutch), I would have just left it stock to save the ~ 1 hour of work!
50mil sorry i haave to put the throttle full on , before it will move its like it is in higher gear. Its like being in a car trying to set off in 3rd gear
Depending how stiff your clutch pad engagement springs are, that might be normal. I used stiffer ones on my bike and now I rev till 7000RPM before the scooter begins moving. Alternatively, the same results from a poorly tuned carburetor struggling to get power before it can move the bike and you
@@2dark_4fortnite88 I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say I'm owning people in comments. I'm just responding in the same manner as the op who commented, isn't that fair?
even with that filter your not helping. it hurts your low end. sis the same on mine at your dyno. on a slightly modded one close to tours its was right under 4lbtq. it may be uglier but go with stick or mover your filter further away
yo sum it up. doing stuff like this will hurt you bot help you brother. im not saying to be negative but many of us tries this when we were younger. its not the way to go. but hey. its your. you choose
6 months update: Still running very well. A bit more noise than stock.... but otherwise the improved response and cooling outweighs the noise many times over. I would therefore recommend this mod unless you prefer the transmission to be as quiet as possible when launching the bike from a dead stop.
FIFTYmil I have a a couple questions I know u cover most of them in ur videos but I'm fairly new to this and my 50cc is mad slow what are quick and easy ways to modify it to make it faster that I can just do or remove what parts to make it less restricted without harming it cuz I need to use it and same time just can't manage it being that slow
easiest is to remove variator ring, some carbs have a plate to reduce airflow remove it, and maybe play with jets those are the easiest, you can also remove the restriction in the exhaust
Hey man I need someone assistance. My Zuma 125 fuel injected won't start until I remove my air filter and block the air hose when the engine is cold
@@onealstedman7026 valves needs adjusted
Seeing those clutch pads killed me inside
Then how did you manage to reply?
Hes a cat.. Thats why 😂
@@mclazyps5334 Well played. Hope he doesn't watch it again. I wouldn't want him using up the remaining 8 lives he's got over one video.
Like the bell mod, but the rear pulley isn't opening up to allow the belt to drop down coming out of the hole. Your belt is riding the high side all the time in the video. When this happens, you loose low end torque. Once your into the WOT cruising range its not noticeable because your belt is already there on the high outer side of the pulley. Its like driving a stick and taking off in 3rd gear. I'm sure this also played a part into the clutch over heating....
1/ your clutch pads are worn but not completely gone, however you need to remove grey material from pad end, and remove with scotch bright pad the glaze,
2/ your belt on run up bench test is refusing to move up or down the bell on clutch and variator, at rest, (ie not running ) the belt at front or left, should be sitting on spindle centre shaft, and be touching the bell sides, on start up the belt should take up a more 1\3 to 1\2
way up bell face, upon acceleration the belt should rise up to the top or widest point apart on bell, while reducing to centre on rear clutch end, nothing is happening why ?.
could you take a look and see what the problem is, like bell polished faces to close together acting as friction brakes instead of driving up to the top or edge as in normal operation in other words they swap positions when running,?.
Mabye to light weights?
I received an email about how this modification essentially polishes the variator face and does no good for belt slippage. I would like to clarify that this modification absolutely does not affect the variator at all. The variator is located in a different part of the transmission all together. This is the clutch bell which is directly connected to the final drive gears and out to the wheels. When the inner clutch assembly spins to a set RPM it engages the clutch friction pad onto the clutch bell and provides the propulsion that moves the scooter forward. What I removed is the outer layer of the clutch bell to increase cooling efficiency and reduce rotating mass. Hope that helps!
The only positive thing to what you did here was resurfacing the inner lip that the shoes make contact with as it was glazed. Reducing the bell thickness can cause it to warp due to excessive heat on the thinner gauge metal which in return will allow it to slip and glaze over more easily.
only resurface the glazed area on the inside lip.
The actual bell thickness wasn't reduced. Instead, the outer housing was removed which I now associate its purpose with noise reduction. If you take a look at race scooter bell housings, many do without that outer piece. Evidently, my clutch is a bit more noisier now.
Given that the thickness and property of the metal wasn't changed significantly, warping should be (and is so far) a non-issue. The lighter weight of the clutch bell not only helps it accelerate and decelerate faster (leading to less heat generated and less temperature fluctuations which causes warping) and so far I haven't seen the overheating symptoms reoccur ever since the modification. I do plan to further add lateral grooves on the clutch housing to increase surface area for every better cooling.
Fasullo Davvero sorry I don't speak your language
this is not a good modification. u r right.
Kevin Stearns so far it's been serving me well I must say.
If you like to work on your transmission you should get a impact wrench. so easy to remove the nuts.
Good advice and I do indeed have one already! Just prefer using the variator tool to set the torque when tightening the nuts back up and ended up not taking my impact out at all.
I was just thinking about it..
it will allso help to sand down the brakepad material on the slippers so there matt again , this allso helps against the screaming of the clutch if the brakematerial is glazed it whont grab as well and create a lot more heat
reducing the mass of the flywheel allso reduces the amount of heat it can hold untill it will deform , from wat i can see on the video the axle holdingthe flywheel is slightly bend making it go round in two different planes
if you make the slippers heavier and the springs heavier the amount of slippage untill it grabs fully might be shorter mounting slippers with more heatresistand brake lining might help too
Not a bad idea at all to deglaze the friction pads. However, this was just a temporary fix and I have upgraded the clutch since then to accomodate the extra rpm and power.
no wonder it got so hot... Whats up with thoose cluth pads? U tried some burnouts and it didnt worked huh?
not just burnouts. I did nearly everything possible with that ruckus!
Here's what probably happened.
Most likely the surface of the inner clutch was glazed to begin with, and the simple resurfacing of the bell was enough to get the shoes to properly bed in, reducing slippage and all the heat in the first place. It had nothing to do with the weight reduction or removal of the outer ring.
Centrifugal clutches usually don't slip passed a certain rpm and cooling is irrelevant passed the first few seconds of setting off, so the fact that your clutch bell got so hot in the first place means that a whole lot of unnecessary slipping was going on in the first place.
I also just did this to my own Piaggio for not the exact same reason, but the shoes were slipping nonetheless under high load and I risked burning up the clutch had I not done so.
Here is the fallacy in your assumption: "Centrifugal cluthes usually don't slip past a certain rpm and cooling is irrelevant past the first few seconds of setting off."
I wrote clearly in the description that the combination of stiffer clutch engagement spring (oem 3000rpm, aftermarket 6000RPM) and repeated clutch engagement in stop & go traffic resulted in overheating. Cooling in this case is, therefore, extremely relevant. Resurfacing of the bell without the modification would result in the same overheating outcome in a short time. In contrast, the weight reduction and quicker dissipation of heat allowed the clutch to be more suitable in the modified spring/stop&go conditions I described above.
"In contrast, the weight reduction and quicker dissipation of heat allowed the clutch to be more suitable in the modified spring/stop and go conditions I described above."
That doesn't make any sense. Reducing the mass only means that your clutch bell is going to heat up faster and be more prone to overheating (see the term: Specific Heat), in the same way that larger vehicles require heavier (not lighter) brake discs in order to prevent brake fade.
Comparing brake to clutch further demonstrates your lack of understanding and tendency to confuse concepts in physics. I would strongly suggest reviewing your knowledge of how brakes and clutch work to achieve a deeper understanding. Also, please note that you appear to be unaware of a few critical points of this modification 1) while the clutch bell mass was reduced, thickness of the inner bell wasn't (significantly, albeit minor surface rust removal). That is, the clutch remains exactly the same with or without the outer housing. In fact, the outerhousing is only attached at the weld points. In between the outer and inner housing is air - one of the best insulator of heat. Therefore, the outer housing further traps heat, reduce airflow, and prevent heat dissipation. 2) A reduction in mass of the overall clutch bell results in less work required to accelerate from a standstill to matching engine speeds, thus less work is required and less friction is made. If what you said about brake discs were true for flywheels, then no one would want to purchase a lighter flywheel for their car/motorcycle. That seems to be quite the contrary as a lighter flywheel is almost the first modification made to stock and modified engines with significantly more horsepower.
"I would strongly suggest reviewing your knowledge of how brakes and clutch work to achieve a deeper understanding."
All I can say is to check your attitude at the door, otherwise there's no discussion to be had.
Having had snowmobiles in the 80's, you don't want to remove the cover off of the clutch.
It is there for extra heat dissipation and to help if the clutch disintegrates.
I hope you did not have any problems.
Nope no problems at all so far riding everyday.
Rather than a lathe and grinder, you can remove that outer sleeve by using a 1/4 inch end Mill chucked in a hand drill. Just lock the rear brake with the belt cover off, cover anywhere you don't want chips entering with masking tape (vent holes in clutch drum) and a rag or 2 (everything else) then slowly, carefully chew away those 3(in your example) spot welds holding the sleeve on the drum. Run the drill at low speed, do one at a time, and brace yourself. A cheap end Mill is fine, no need for carbide, fine cut, etc. 4 flute is better than 2. Go just deep enough to break the weld button. If you already have a drill, but no lathe or grinder, it's far cheaper. If you have a grinder you can mask the same way for chips, and just carefully spot grind those welds also, then clean up with brake cleaner, no lathe required.
Very good advice - A drill will work just as fine as a grinder. However, for convenience sake I would remove the bell housing completely as it only involves one nut, provided you have the right tools.
FIFTYmil I suggested leaving it in place (the clutch bell) because locking the rear brake will hold it immobile, allowing the use of both hands to steady the tool, assuming a bench vise might not be available for many viewers. Undoubtedly removal and vise holding is the RIGHT way to do it, but not all have that option. Masking and covering will keep chips and such out of spots they'll do harm, and a can of brake cleaner will wash away the chunks hell-bent on causing problems, lol. That bell of yours got FRIED! That's actually indicative of dragging shoes in many cases, but lots of short motion stop and go in hot conditions will obviously cause it too. I'd double check the air inlet on the cover for flow restriction, and even be tempted to vent the rear of the cover to allow more air flow, though that can be problematic as well. Great fix though, I just figured I'd offer up a method for the more tooling impoverished who might decide to forego the fix because they lacked higher end gear.
Absolutely, your method should work equally well.
The bell overheated because a) I am using a non-oem stiffer clutch engagement spring and b) I was riding a lot in stop and go traffic. Reasonably, that is equivalent to driving a manual car in stop and go traffic dumping the clutch @ 6000RPM every single time just to move an inch. Overheating is unavoidable as that is the bane of auto clutch. To reduce overheating I improved ventilation and also modified the clutch bell housing for a temporary fix. If budget is no concern I would purchase an aftermarket bell clutch housing and clutch pads that have the necessary strength to endure higher rpm launch.
FIFTYmil ahhh, ok like running a drag torque converter in commuter traffic, gotcha! The downside of streeting high po parts no matter what vehicle type, that evil Lord Kelvin
The clutch pads look a little worn to me personally and that may attribute to most of your slipping. Besides that, I am curious how well they stood up to the bead blasted internal surface. Although it definitely would increase grip by the multitudes it just sacrifices the life of the clutch pads tremendously. Without a smooth clutching surface it’s pretty akin to sanding the pads every time you take off.
The bead blasting did not make a significant difference to match your example of sanding the pads down everytime I take off. Most of the slipping was attributed to the stiffer clutch springs installed and subsequently higher transmission case temperatures.
You need to watch a video here on RUclips somewhere showing a scooter clutch exploding! Guy was revving the engine about like you were here, not too high or anything and...wham! It totally shattered the cvt case and part of the swingarm...there was almost nothing left of the clutch. I had no idea that could happen until I watched that video. Hit me up if you can't find it if interested and I will look for it.
Please show me! That is very interesting
FIFTYmil
Did you watch this? Just curious what you thought.
Pirate Labs No I was't able to find the link.
FIFTYmil The link is in my reply to you. I just checked it and it works. Let me know if you can't see it for some reason.
Pirate Labs I can't see a link anywhere! Could you give me the exact title. I can just search it up
some modification put thicker ring to prevent it from getting out of shape, that thing is what prevents your bell from getting oval. what you need to do is put some thread like line inside the bell for gripping not just put some patter or scratches to make it grip that will kill your clutch pad for sure, it will give you the best grip because of the thread like line and also avoids your pad from getting worn out.
Please link to "some modification put thicker ring" and describe clearly how "Thread like line" instead of "Scratches" will improve clutch engagement and reduce clutch wear.
@@FIFTYmil i have some photos if you want, since I don't have any link because I made the machine shop do the work for me. the thread line will engage much better, also because of the thick ring, I've been using my bell for almost 3 years now without any dragging result.
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=876330899384231&id=100010219865508
@@zenargaming1257 That's very interesting. I like the idea of the grooves in the clutch bell to faciliate the removal of clutch dust which could reduce clutch pad engagement, much similar to the positive results from having slots in brake rotors.
@@FIFTYmil what I did with the machine shop is to angle my drive phase and pulley to 13.6dgree and groove the trail of the roller to maximize the push of the pulley, change roller to 10g, change spring to a hard one and you already saw my bell, from 119kph top speed it is now running maximum of 135kph. that only cost me 47$ labor in the machine shop. that's here in the philippines, i don't know how much machine shop cost in your country.
I'm willing to bet that sheet metal was installed by the manufacturer as a safety. If over spun and clutch bell had a stress crack it does heat cycle like crazy without the sheet metal it's a gernade explodes throwing shrapnel. The sheet metal would help it not explode as easy. Plus removing metal it's just gonna heat up quicker and your clutch shoes were glazed over take some emery cloth to em remove the glaze it'll ruduce your slippage issue some
braxton barrett unfortunately you appear to have bet wrong. No “crazy heat cycle, cracking, grenade explosion throwing shrapnel” was observed as you mentioned. An outer ring also have significant gaps in between meaning it would not have any use as a heat sink insulted by the air between the two metal surfaces.
Not to be that guy, but that ring is a reinforcement so the clutch bell wont be deformed by the heat or, when you have a high power output, even explode. Buy a new 107mm clutchbell with coolingwings and made out of an harder material. :)
bulletgt3 not to be that guy, but your speculations doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon. Also if you read the description or comments those solutions you’ve listed have been extensively discussed already ;)
Small holes in a zig pattern but spaced out so you don't weaken it to much do this on a spar cluch plate so you don't mess up a good one I'd probably space them out every 1/2" or what ever will even the holes out
How do you exactly drill each hole out so they are not off by a thousandth of an inch. Also, how do you make sure the zigzag pattern is straight and the drill bit is exactly perpendicular to the clutch surface?
Would love to see your airbox modification. I like how clean your's looks. I'm a little confused by all the hoses that are on the stock airbox and where they all go after the modification. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
+Chris Taylor Hey Chris, I get that question a lot. I'll try to get a video uploaded on here to talk about the airbox mod shortly. Stay tuned. To help you out though, depending on the year of your ruckus, there will be a few hoses that are there for reducing emissions. One hose connects to the front of the engine PAIR valve (where the exhaust port is) and feeds exhaust gas back into the airbox to re-use. Cap that off. The second one goes to the carburetor's side port and provides atmospheric air pressure for the CV carb to operate. Add a filter to it. Finally, if you have a 06+ model, there is a PCV valve for the crankcase. Add a filter to the end of the hose and/or relocate the entire assembly. For the PCV valve itself I made carbon fiber pieces for so I relocated the entire assembly and made it look a bit cleaner
+FIFTYmil Can't wait to see it. Your description is good, however a vid would give me much more confidence! Thank you so much for taking the time to help us all out!! Where do I order the smaller filters for the ends of the hoses? I've got a UNI Pod filter that comes directly off the back of the card. Should I go ahead and get one with a 90 degree hose like the one you have?
Chris Taylor Thanks for the kind words. Can't wait for the snow to melt here to pull the bikes out. You can get the (KN RU-3490) fitted directly onto the pcv solenoid valve but it is money. Considering that Honda just used a sponge as filter, I didn`t worry too much about it and just left it to vent out into the atmosphere.
Chris Taylor Dyno graphs have shown that the CV types of carb responds significantly better with an intake snorkel to smooth out the airflow. Putting a filter directly in the carb makes the incoming air too turbulent. Regardless, I would just try the filter on the carb first to see if you like it since you already have it. I`ve tried both personally myself and like the intake snorkel setup more. The snorkel I`m using it just the shorter version Honda Metropolitan/Jazz OEM intake tube. Your Honda Ruckus oem snorkel works too!
You remove material on the outside but need to refinish the inside and get new pads that's the issue it slipping which is causing heat soak. Removing material will only effect rotational mass.
Yes the inside and friction pads were bead blasted to remove glazing. However, that is not the issue its slipping. You must understand the root cause, which was stiffer clutch springs. No matter how many times you refinish the inside and get newer pads it would not change anything.
another note, if you wanted to aid in cooling you could drill many evenly spaced holes around the bell
Quite the opposite, the chance of drilling "evenly spaced" and "same sized" holes to ensure the bell remains balanced is nearly impossible to achieve. I would definitely avoid that suggestion.
+ FIFTYmil I like your attitude and the way you deal with the haters and negative comments.
If I (and many others, in fact) could adopt your live and let live philosophy, You tube would be a much better place!
AS for those who have the "Mine is better/stronger/faster than yours" thing going on, they're all 50cc scooters for Pete's sake, and you're not going to get light-speed out of them no matter how you try so if you want to really go faster, get a bigger engine! There's only so much you can get out of 50cc!
And good to see the use of the proper tool to hold the clutch rotor when undoing the centre nut. excellent!
roythearcher thanks for the encouraging comment. Tuning a 50cc is extremely fun and running the bike at full throttle at 50mph is definitely a unique experience that even my Ducati at 120mph can not offer. I appreciate critical comments but unfortunately can not accept ones who simply calls me dumb and don't explain or explains with an incorrect theory. Those I must respond with the same level (or lack of) respect
I hear you! Round here where I live there's only a few roads that you would be able to do more than the legal limit on without getting into all sorts of trouble and are ideally suited to smaller, lighter machines to get the best out of. Fireblades and R1's are wasted round here! but a 250 ninja, now, that's a whole different thing!
Scooters would be better suited to our local roads if not for all the pot-holes and their small wheels. Not the best combination!
My bike is a Honda ST1100 by the way!!! hardly small......er..!
if you take off the clutch bell and match a drill bit to the 6 holes in in and angle cut it so that it drags air into the clutch I find that it helps alot
That's a good suggestion!
I would guess that removing material from the clutch bell will mean that as there is less mass the bell would heat up faster but on the flip side of that it would cool down faster as it has less mass so it would not act as such a heat sink that's perhaps why you found an improvement after removing the weight/material from the bell. It would also remove weight from the rotating parts so everything should spin up faster as you have said, it would be like using a lighter wheel or a lighter flywheel/variator.
That's correct. Less material means that the surface can dissipate heat accumulated from friction faster. The lighter mass was a huge benefit to reducing the overal rotating mass of the clutch bell resulting in more immediately response
@@FIFTYmil Yeah, right. The dudes who design computers must be idiots to put massive copper heatsinks on processors, with hundreds of fins, instead of mounting a single foil which according to you, it would disipate the heat, better, isn't it? Where did you learn mechanics and physics? In a ditch, or in a swamp?
@@1zanglang shut your pie hole key board warrior
@@1zanglangyou is nasty man .he just having fun u is orrible too heem
The intake pipe you’re running you described as Honda Jazz/Metropolitan shorty intake with K&N filter. That pipe looks a lot like the Tokyo Parts (Zoomania) shiort intake pipe. I have a kit made by them coming to me in a few days from Japan. It is made for the Honda ruckus/zoomer and should fit pre 2012 metro’s. Where did you get yours? 78 main jet worked good for you? Idle Jet, did you use stock 35 or did you use a 38? Thanks
The shorter intake tube is from the jazz/metro directly ordered from any honda motorcycle dealership! I didn't change the idle jet but the main jet was changed significantly
@@FIFTYmil Thanks for getting back to me on the pipe. I see it was used on the pre 2013 metro’s. You stated on the video you changed the main jet to a 78. Stock is 75, the diameter on a 78 is .001 larger than on a 75. Does yours idle well with the stock pilot jet? I’m suprised it isn’t running lean at lower rpm’s. I have 38/80 jet’s on my similar setup. Runs well.
@@Ethan.s.. Yes the intake snorkel for both ruckus and metro have changed over the years. The short stubby one was pre 2013 or 2015 as you said.
Regarding the jets, it could largely be due to how far you live from sea level. However, a well known tuner and Honda mechanic by the name of Chanito from ruckus central back in the days found that in most circumstances you don't need to modify the pilot jet if the idle mix is tuned properly. He is also the inventor of the Wiseco 58cc big bore piston. I also arrived at the same conclusion after properly adjusting the idle mixture screw. It is a D shaped screw
@@FIFTYmil Thanks for the input. I am familiar with Chanito and also the fuel mixture knob. My understanding was it could make about a 1 size change up or down on the pilot jet. 38 works well for me with out adjusting the fuel mixture. Good to know what you did to get yours dialed in. I’m at around 600 ft above sea level.
the outer band is a heat sink to take heat off the drum,, use a large size oil filter wrench to hold the drum and a mediun size for the front variator
William Volkmann why would you suggest to use a oil filter wrench when the correct tool is used and shown in this video?
the spanner wrench you have there has the incorrect pin size and it's nearly impossible to hold with one hand were as a band wrench or chain wrench or oil flt. wrench can be held with one hand and be able to deliver 55ft.lb to the nut as per factory spec. when demo.vid.is made it's nice to include all the info and options so nobody is guessing as what will bite them down the road
William Volkmann wrong. that is in fact a dedicated variable and clutch removal tool made by kitaco for the Honda ruckus. Instead, your suggestion of a oil filter wrench is often associated with breaking off the variation fin when it slips (which happens more often than a dedicated variator tool). Finally, this is not a how-to video but merely to document what I did. Disclaimer is provided in the description at your own risk
I didn't notice how to protect the variator fins with this spanner wrench, I thought the Honda tool is rigid.
lol lets take a grinder to some thing that spins at high speed.... good way to mess bearings up.
If you realize that the angle grinder barely took any material off and only cleaned up the spot welds on the face then you'll realize this world is not always black and white as well.
@@FIFTYmil no its pretty black and white, granted it was already warped so your not really gonna make it worse then it already was. your clearly removing some metal to blend it out and no matter how hard you try, you will not do it evenly the way you did it. even if you turn the part it still would be unbalanced due to it being warped.
don't believe me take it off find a straight rod that is a good fit on the id thru hole. set up two parallel surface that are flat and have the rod resting across them. mark one spot with a sharpie. ill bet 1000$ usa that if you rest it in any index position it will roll and that mark will return to the same position showing its not balanced. this will cause more wear on bearings.
also since you ground it you also made the thickness different all around it. it will not heat up evenly any more . metal expands and contracts based on temp , having areas thicker and thinner they will expand and contract at different rates.
im a machinist that does r&d for automotive tech. you'd be surprised what a few grams of unbalance rotating mass does.
@@warwickben I appreciate the long response you've provided (which was TL:DR) but you do realize that the clutch bell comes new from Honda not perfectly balanced right? While I understand you stress the importance of a finely balanced rotating mass, you must also consider the context and purpose of the component. If you re-watch the video and look at how much mass removing the outer bell relative to the "cosmetic touch up" in the end that you seem to dwell on, you would realize how little material, if any, was taken off. There are tolerances that are acceptable without "messing bearings up" within service intervals. So once again, not exactly black and white.
Except when you were grinding it you could see the shape of the surface changing and the visible material flying away 😉 😏 go buy a new one buddy yours is fucked
Modify ducting and fairing to channel more air into clutch..make allowance for water ingress also expelling air
Yes absolutely true. This mod is not made to withstand weather.
so what effect you gain on this modification? i also have Honda Vario Matic 110cc modified engine, my problem is on top speed, just reach 133km/h with 8.6 second for 200 meters acceleration. i still confused with those mechanism to make it 150km/h.. and i think i am interested to put supercharger on it but i still learn how to put it there and plus minus effects for long distances..
Mostly it cured my problem with overheating the clutch but due to the reduced rotational mass I also gained slightly improved throttle roll on/clutch engagement response.
If you want to have more top speed, the first question is does your engine have enough power to achieve those speeds? The second question is your transmission capable of handling a higher top speed? What is your peak horspower RPM? What sort of RPM are you seeing at 133km/h?
The variator seems to be very inactive, most probably due to lower roller weights. This will drop fuel economy.
Lower roller weights will definitely hurt fuel economy but provider better acceleration and top speed by operating the engine at closer to peak horsepower rpm.
If you want to decrease the stall rate (the RPM) that the clutch engages you need to increase the weight of the clutch pads or reduce the tension of the springs that retain the clutch pads that THROW OUT
But this video is not about decreasing the clutch engagement rpm?
need to replace your clutch Bell, due to the overheating it is now out of round you can see it
lmao
How many times did you watch the video? Trust me it is not out of round I had machines to read that.
Yep before the grinding when you can see the blue from the heat the outer shell of the bell is separated from the contact surface 👌 😳 the new one is super wavy at the rev up shot at the end.
The slippage might be an issue for me. I feel like I get a slip and grab on takeoff..
It's not the roller waits or the belt, Belt was just replaced, Roller waits were checked and inspected, as well reset.
What was the name of the style product you used on the inside?
Also, Do you think the outer casing you removed was considered a balancer of any sort? Like balancing rims and tires etc?
Sandblasting but using a sandpaper to scuff up the inside would achieve a similar result
I was thinking about this as well.
Might just do this on every 5,000 miles
Thank you for your reply :)
impact wrench would help quite a bit, battery one too.. just changed wifes scooter belt
Just a tip be carefull with the vario cause its on the crankshaft. Yout basicly slamming the piston around in the cilinder. I wont say that it really damages it but in scooter tuning every risk to lose power isnt a risk we take. sry if my grammar is a little off 😅
@@gerbandnl just keep variator from running with other hand ;)
Still need a torque wrench to put it back on
How much do you weigh ? I'm 180lbs. I'm using 5.5g sliders.
+NguyenThai1980 I weigh 185lbs give or take. The weight of the sliders really depends on how much power your engine puts down and where the power is made. I'm using 4.4g weights on a 4 stroke ruckus 49cc engine. The dyno suggest most power being made between 8500-9300RPM for these particular AF58 engines. Targeting the right roller weights to accelerate in that power band achieves the best acceleration. So therefore, the less power the engine makes, the lighter weights you'll need to achieve operating the engine in that powerband. Hope that makes sense!
+FIFTYmil sorry bro that's incorrect. weights inside of your variator are chosen based off of a multitude of different variations and variables first off gear ratios size of your variator to the size of your clutch second elevation third train in about a gazillion others what you've done to your ruckus I agree is pretty smart but also pretty stupid because unless you get that thing powder-coated your now subjecting that clutch bell housing to rust which in turn would cause your springs to rust, to become weakened and judging by your video I noticed that you rev your engine once and the clutch didn't catch when you read that again then it caught with suggest the springs inside of the clutch or possibly the contours spring itself personally its 40 bucks I would have got a new clutch as for the casing on your ruckus I've never been particularly fond of them having the clutch and the variator sunken into the case like that they're more apt to heat up due to poor ventilation which is why most of our traditional gy6 139qmb engine they're more exposed the Kevlar belt despite most people's beliefs do not help in any way but to make it last longer I have a 50cc Chinese scooter that does 60mph however that is just a drag bike my recommendation is stopped slapping things on your scooter because he saw them on RUclips and it looked cool though you do have the gist of the information but you don't have the knowledge behind that that air intake you have is pointless it's a glorified air filter that's made to look cool in that Honda Gy 6 engine is putting out the same amount of horsepower as the guy down the street who has a wildfire or the Teo Teo
+Ryan Bliss You honestly lost me at TeoTeo. I have no idea what that is but let me try to help you out. First, you said "weights depends on elevation." Do you know why elevation matters? Because elevation determines how much power your engine is able to put down. I have mentioned this already and you are merely repeating my point. It appears you don't understand your concepts well enough.
Second, you recommend powder coating a clutch bell which is subject to extreme friction aka heat. Powder coating would not stand up to the heat. Ceramic coating, which i assume you were suggesting, would be counter intuitive as you would want your clutch bell to dissipate heat, not retain it. 6 months in and not a single sign of rust. I can achieve that because I run an original OEM honda drive belt cover with rubber gaskets designed by Honda engineers with a proper degree, and not a replica chinese knock off GY6. Apart from belt dust there's nearly no moisture significant enough to cause rust. Speaking from experience owning a gy6 myself, apart from providing cheap power it doesn't come close to Honda engineering or any real motorcycle manufacturer for that matter.
Third, your observation on my clutch not catching further shows your ignorance in scooter tuning. Obviously you would know I have replaced the pair stock clutch springs with stiffer ones. If you don't know, stiffer clutch springs allows for a higher RPM engagement. I am quite skeptical of your claims achieving 60mph on a chinese clone 50cc without even knowing this basic knowledge.
Finally, the filter swap alone, while I agree is cosmetically appealing, forced me to increase the size of my MJ. That alone suggests more air going to the engine before I even pull out my dyno graphs to show you. Need I say more?
+FIFTYmil ok some knowledge for your first of all most things that are powder coated or subject to extreme heat aka engine blocks which on a be able to stand right around 500 to 1200 degrees that's the number one number to ceramic coating there is no difference ceramic coating is the same as powder coating except ceramic inside the powder powder coating is work by positively charging the paint particles and negatively charging the object of a powder coating number 2 if the clutch bell housing is getting hot then it is holding heat if it is cold and that means deflecting heat everybody knows that running a cold engine is better than running a hot engine if your retarded ass would understand that you wouldn't have this problem you're having now and engaging your springs at a higher rpm what good does that do my spy of a standard 1500 rpm contours to bring in my scooters you don't need to engage your scooter at 2000 rpms because your scooter is not nearly powerful enough for that you're not going to see any difference in anything other than your take off so Mr know it all congratulations and maybe just maybe if you got off of Hondas dick you would understand and getting them bigger main jet that's a f****** retarded things because you can just buy a large main jet and use your standard air box with it and don't say you can't because I've done it and really dude jump up to a 95 jet you get a whole lot more power and judging by the size of your freaking wrist and the way your hands look there's no way or 180 pounds if you are here like 3 foot tall
take a breath buddy
A reduction in spinning weight should translate into faster acceleration, Nice. Just like a lightweight flywheel on a car.
Exactly! Although originally I performed the modification to reduce overheating. Make sure your clutch bell is balanced after this modification
I was, however, initially concerned whether it would lead to premature warping of the clutch bell. I got lucky and I think it is doing rather fine thus far
5g vari rollers and 1k to 2k Springs should do the same thing. Or if you want to spend money there are plenty of higher end clutch bells. Might as well go with pollini seeing as you've already invested in the belt. Just an opinion but I like to see people trying things out for themselves to see what works out.
Good advice. In fact, I have 4.7g slider weights and 3.5K clutch springs installed already but it was really the 3.5K springs and stop&go traffic that overheated the clutch bell and led me to this mod. My option was to install a better ventilated clutch bell or experiment with the existing one. Turns out the stock one was able to achieve the same result if not better and will become even more lighter than the aftermarket ones!
Fiftymil I noticed that when i first tried to set off, i had to pull the revs full on before it started to move , then when i eventually stopped i had to have both brakes before it stopped. Thanks
Sorry I don't think I understand. Please define "pull the revs full on" in order to start moving. You will indeed need to use brakes to stop.
with so much clutch slippage, check the clutch pads on the inside, maybe they are worn
Clutch pads are within service specs - the clutch slipping is directly a result of stiffer clutch springs resulting is more aggressive launching rpm. Understandably the original friction material weren't designed for repeated high rpm launches.
dont take material off that clutch bell, it will overheat even faster and could warp, the more material you have the harder it is to overheat
removing that guard thing will help, but you dont want to remove any material from the bell itself, at least not much
@@Thedeaconoftrade Exactly, not much material was removed from the actual bell. The weight difference is entirely due to the removal of the outer ring.
If you rewatch the video, no material was taken off the actual clutch bell. The outer ring was removed and the face was cleaned up gently.
In your test run the belt ratio/variator didn't move on rpm increase, wounder if the rear pins are binding in spiral groves.
William Volkmann wrong. Partial throttle paired with relatively low variator weights and stiffer clutch springs explains your observation. Rolling on the throttle doesn’t necessary cause the transmission to upshift immediately
i wouldn't modify stock parts but instead buying parts suitable from your use case.
engineers at honda did rng to make sure stock parts are reliable and economical especially at speed
those stock clutch pads are stupid soft. they are a weird material. thats why you have a lot of heat buildup, they slip too much
you could try another brand clutch that uses better clutch pad material but other clutches could weigh more. adding more rotating weight its a fine line when you do start lightening parts because you can loose top speed but gain acceleration when doing that.
Thanks. Link to the better clutch material?
it would be an entire new clutch
stage 6 or koso is a good one, I know you can use the cheap gy6 50cc clutches too but you will need a small shim spacer for any aftermarket one you use but that part is not hard to make, or find to buy
I've tried the gy6 3 shoe clutch and bell before, it is heavier and I felt it lowered my acceleration speed. really saw no other gains from using it even tried speed test up steep hill. but it should use better pad material and you can find more contra springs for the gy6
and if you didnt know people have used the zuma 50cc 2 stroke pink clutch springs on the stock ruckus clutch. it is a lot stiffer, will make you rev higher to accelerate from a stop but change when you get into the power band and for that engine it makes the most power around 8200 rpm. usually try to tune your clutch springs, rollers to get into that area when taking off from a dead stop and accelerating hard
yep using the zuma clutch springs already.. which is why I overheated the stock clutch in heavy traffic. Dyno graphs prove otherwise, I found much more horsepower beyond 9000RPM and above the rev limiter. I will consider a better clutch in the future perhaps! but the cost to swap a gy6 into the ruckus (which I have already) was a more economically and reversible mod than any one of the GET aftermarket choices.
@5:18 bug spotted @ the bottom left cornor.
Lol
Cornor Mc Gregor
I do believe, that ring is for safety. The hardened clutch can shatter into pieces and that ring stop's them from flying out. Now your heat "issues" is normal working of a friction clutch, (as brakes on a car). All these parts have a life, and when they wear or burn change them. I don't think this is a positive mod, best of luck.
That is a positive analysis. I originally thought that the ring is for safety. However several points to consider that may rejects your hypothesis
1) Please notice many oem clutch bells and aftermarket ones do not have that ring but rather just a solid piece (as the one you see in this video after ring removal).
2) On-road testing past 3000+km now with no adverse reaction. The only difference is more noise. Some have postulated that the ring is to reduce clutch noise. Noise reduction seems to be the primary purpose of the ring
3) In the event the clutch shatters, the belt cover should be sufficient to prevent flying shrapnels. Which defeats the purpose of OEM designing a ring for a repeated safety.
I reject your opinion on the heat "issue" being normal. It is the added results of 1) aftermarket stiffer clutch springs, 2) tires with significantly more grip, 3) sustained higher rpm riding and 4) slight increase in horsepower. All of these factors contribute to significant heat increase for both the clutch and the entire transmission resulting in system failure.
@@FIFTYmil I think you are trying to defend your theory with very little research. Try some of the chatrooms regarding this issues, witch I have looked into , and was given GOOD Advice by different people. To look at springs, weights, pads. ETC. And replace it. Now attacking a clutch bell with a grinder and removing the sound suppressor, you would call it, might have more than one purpose.
Perhaps you took my reply too personally and feel insulted. Instead of expressing what you think on whether my research is little or a lot, why not try to present a rebuttal with facts as I have? I have presented the facts to support the theory. Feel free to reject those facts with sufficient evidence.
nice work! a question, wouldn't have taking the bell out and grinding the clutch would have caused some balance problem at high rpm and possible cause the clutch to slip ? did you experience any think different on high rpm
Boostmaker, that was one of my biggest concerns when experimenting with this. However, I have put nearly 3000km on the bike now and anything between 0- 10,800RPM with no negative effects. Upon inspection after removing the outer ring, there is no evidence of any balancing done on the clutch bell. On the balancing machine, the clutch stayed true after modification.
+FIFTYmil good to know. I've got a sym hd200, recently I've put in 12grm Dr pulley sliders. I'm yet to check the rpm so I feel of might have a little bit slipping during fast take off and was thinking of drilling extra holes to lighten the clutch bell. I should be tell If my clutch is slipping or not once I get my small rpm tacho delivered
boostmaker A little slip is good! Don't worry too much. The problem for me started when I replaced the clutch springs with stiffer ones. This forced the clutch to engage at a higher rpm. While it is a nice modification, repeated stop and go traffic accumulates a lot of heat and resulted in overheating
+FIFTYmil what do you do when it rains with the intake ? if you cover it or place the stock cover, then doesn't it run too rich
boostmaker regarding drilling holes into the clutch, I would be wary about that because it is difficult to take exactly the same amount of material off everytime you drill and the location you drill. This might make the clutch imbalanced.
could you notice any improvement after the clutch bell mod?
d1strappazon less clutch slipping even with the modified stiffer clutch spring. Negligible but noticeable improvement in response and acceleration
Wached this you never did any thing to the real clutch you just r sufficed a fly wheel . The clutch pads and spring do the real work. And you never even rift up the pads that would of given you the best improvement and vary little work
Almost 100g reduction in weight of the flywheel is "not doing anything" but apparently rifting up the pads is - because the pads will stay rift up the first time and every time there after...#mindblown
I’ve did this today on my aerox mate haven’t fitted yet what the improvements of it
The improvements was primarily less clutch fade after repeated engagement in stop and go traffic. Aside from that, other improvements were small but noticeable.
FIFTYmil are yes yes I haven’t fitted yet but what you just said I notice that in traffic sometimes slight clutch fade
I’m running a delta clutch on the Bell that’s fine but I’ll try it today and my belt is at it lowest position and highest at the rear that I never ever fort of the rear pulley was very stiff no free after I rear grease it what a improvement in lower end and top end
@@winstonbanks1057 Nice.
You'll go through clutch shoes faster, but she'll be torquey as hell.
increased clutch wear was the result of higher launch rpm, not because of this modification. In fact, the reduced clutch bell weight would aid in reducing clutch wear as less mass is being moved.
there is a variator roller noise that could be a problem ?.
Its a 4 stroke and it is probably valve noise.
Do you get a higher top speed when doing that to the variator?
The variator was never modified in this video. The clutch bell modified in this video did not increase the top speed.
Why is the clutch dragging from idle, you wanna try n get rid of that if u can
Good tip.
Greetings from Scooter Community Germany
Thank you, greetings!
An even easyer solution is to make the holes bigger, or buying a tuning clutch Bell
Making the holes bigger is not a solution as you can't guarantee all holes will be the same size within tolerance, but purchasing a more robust aftermarket clutch is definitely an option if you have the money.
FIFTYmil it's just because I've seen people take clutch bells to a mill and widening the holes, and then cutting small slots and bending them up to make "fins" that act as an intake for air.
You hardly have any clutch shoes left thats why there slipping your clutch is knackered i hope its replaced
In millimeters, please define "hardly have any clutch shoes left."
What happens if you put a 4 4.5g weights?
what is the clicking or tapping on tickover, it sounds like rollers am i right because i have the same setup and now the same noise,
Sorry can you specify the time in the video where you heard ticking?
BEGINNING ON STARTUP, HOWEVER ONE THING I HAVE NOTICED IS YOUR NEVER WRONG,, ARE YOU,?!!
vassilij zietseff valvles
Good morning, what material is used on canvas or clutch drag shoes? thankful
canvas or clutch drag shoes? Sorry I think the meaning may have gotten lost in translation.
FIFTYmil,I hava a honda jazz(nss 250) and would like to upgrade it by myself in any possible way.Do you have any ideas or suggestions for me?thnks
+Νικολαος Kαραμπινερης Hey thanks for watching my video. Please subscribe and rate the video if you can do me a huge favor. I don't own a NSS250 myself so my suggestions are not going to be the most helpful. Interestingly, we call the CHF50 jazz here in canada (ALOT slower!). There is a huge forum that can help you out but I could give you some pointers.
So first of all, what is it on your bike that you are not satisfied and want an upgrade?
It is quite fast for 250 but I believe that some improvements can be made,also I am having a small issue with the drive belt,it some times spins without proper traction on the clutch.
Another thing is that due to the fact that the rear wheel is small in diameter there is a feeling that I might lose control on a turn and there is more wear than should be on the rear tire.
Can I and should I lower the shock absorbers in the front,how should I do this?
I am considering on removing the filter that returns exaust fumes(the one above the clutch case) and should I install sometinhg else in its place?
Any other ideas will be appreciated,at my own risk.
Thanks for your reply,much appreciated!!!
Just for the sake of it I was born in kingston ontario and grew up in ottawa.
Now a permanent resident of southern greece.
Νικολαος Kαραμπινερης You are right. At 250cc, you would almost have everything you need in terms of speed and acceleration for traffic. Of course, making the motorcycle lighter always help improve performance and make it more enjoyable to ride. Apart from weight reduction, I find that often times the original variator weights are a bit heavier than what I like. This is to account for maximizing fuel efficiency. If you like the engine to be a bit more responsive I would consider going down a bit on the variator weights. A good start would be to invest on a tachometer to see what sorts of RPM your engine is operating at. These tachs can be had for as little as 10$ on ebay. Let me know if you would like the link. With the tach installed I would consider trying lighter variator weights, tuned specifically to your riding style.
Νικολαος Kαραμπινερης For the belt slip, I would ask are you 100% sure it's the belt slipping in the CVT transmission? Rarely do they slip unless contaminants are introduced into the system such as oil. They are however the weakest link in the transmission and requires replacement according to the manufacturer recommendation or earlier when they become too thin. Find out how wide your belt is and whether it is within the service limit of the bike.
On my scooter there is also a valve that recirculates exhaust gas back into the intake. Ignoring emission concerns and standards for vehicle inspections, I would either cap it off or let it vent into the atmosphere with a small filter at the end. The small filter serves to prevent contaminants from entering back into the engine assuming your bike does not have a one-way exit valve
Holy brother I don't know the size of the cluch plate use a marker to lay a pattern out on the cluch plate to get every thing lined out and put it in a drill press if you have one
I've got a yamaha aerox 155 everything is stock. Want to increase my topspeed since i was always on a longdistance trip. Any suggestion guys about some kind of a modification or aftermarket bolt-on parts to gain more power
what's you current top speed and at what RPM? how much more top speed do you want to achieve?
You never statwd whay your ingage Ram's were after the modifications if any as all. The fact that by temoving removing meterial from the inside of the clutch housing by bead blasting it also made the total gap inside latger than stock which would mean the actual clutch disks would have to travel furher before engaging with the modified housing. With that being said you woulf still have to rev to a higher than normal rpm to spinthe clutch fast enough to cause enough force to throw the disks out further than normal before engaging. Which wohld mean it wont fis the problem and if so only long enough to get by for a few before it goes completly out because of over streached weak springs that become wore and streached out to the point it holds the break shoe out far enough for it to rub non stop causeing failure and wear to the clutch and to the bike for having to constantly rev at higher rpm's. Id definitely replace it unless its a self adjusting clutch and pretty new.
Sorry for the long rant but wouldnt it just be cheaper in the long run to go aheaf and pay for the best top of the line clutch? Im only asking cause im fairley new to his kinda stuff but i love to learn so i watch these kinds of videos
You're correct, this mod is free but also a temporary fix to the underlying issue: Overheating clutch due to increased horsepower and increasing the clutch engagement rpm.
1. Engaging rpm is determined by the clutch springs. They were swapped for stiffer ones and they engage at i believe 5000rpm.
2.Modifying any parts of the clutch bell would not affect the engagement rpm (unless of course the springs weaken over time.) Your speculation about having to rev higher to make up for the larger gap is incorrect.
3. Bead blasting removes nearly no material and definitely does not affect the overall thickness of the clutch bell inner lining. The purpose of the bead blasting roughens up the surface to increase surface area and promote better engagement with the clutch pads.
4. So far I have put about 9000km on the modified clutch bell with no effects you stated.
5. As stated in the video, you're correct the best solution is to change to a better clutch with better friction pads (and possibly more friction pads) and a more robust clutch bell to accept the increased horsepower and higher rpm engagement.
I did Not change the airfilter. That makes it only loud and thirsty. Change the cluch and the bell. On minimal tuned scooters the air will find the way to the carb.
Gerhard, you postulate that changing air filter only makes it thirsty for more fuel. What does more fuel and oxygen equal?
An Open airfilter is usefull on 70 ccm midrace and race Setups not beyont You will have the same result with the ori and an sport Inlay from malossi. Not that loud.
While there is some validity that change is more noticeable with larger cc engines, do you have any solid evidence regarding your statement for 70cc or less? By "same result," are you suggesting absolutely 0% increase in horsepower is found if a less restrictive air filter was used on 70cc or less?
I made a series of episode documenting modification to the stock airbox of a 50cc. While it was definitely louder, much more power was made especially at higher RPMs. As I did not have a dyno at that time, "much" more power is defined as increase of 10km/h and 20% improvement in 0-40mph acceleration just with the modification of the airbox and tuning of the carb for extra fuel. How do you account for that observation?
There are so many was to tune. The airbox and carb mod is a thing You can ride a book about. And my english is not the Best. I wish a good night
Indeed, therefore suggesting that modification to increase oxygen delivery is insignificant is misleading, unless your have evidence to suggest otherwise because from my experience it made a significant difference quantitatively. However, I would love to hear your opinion what modifications you like on >70cc engines more specifically.
Have you told your insurance company lol
G T who even puts fully comp insurance on a sub $1000 scooter?
@@FIFTYmil best to tell your insurance , avoid problems .....
After all a mod is just that so you so really need to let insurance know any changes....or they walk away and you end up in an accident paying out if you course injury or loss ...so it's really best to just tell your insurance of any mods.....I enjoyed your film keep up the great work mate ...
GOM, get a harbor freight electric impact gun. it will take those nuts on an doff without any other tools.
I find harbor freight products subpar and too cheap. I am currently using the flagship, top-of-the-line DeWalt DCF899
@@FIFTYmil that funny, for the most part, they have better products. I got my Chicago 1/2" corded impact gun more then a year ago. it had no problem taking off and on cv axle nuts when I had to replace the cv's on my van. I have a full set of HF torque set. 4 sets of metric sockets. I can tell you the US General Tool boxes are top notch.
I don't like over paying and HD and Lowes are over priced.
@@ffieditor Corded and Cordless is two completely different world, and I have both. However, I didn't even have to pay retail price for the DeWalt. Might have even paid less than the inflated price of the chicago corded impact gun.
Where's part 2!
Hello mate how did you get to stick to the bench grinder please reply ASAP
The lathe clamps on to the clutch bell
what torque wrench are you using.. it has dual head?
Motocraft/mastercraft? Not really sure.The dual head allows use of different sized sockets though! Quite handy
Thanks man! My aerox runs on little bit better 👍👍
Awesome! Thanks for watching
Yo how its running now?
JoeKickass324. Keep running nice 👍no problems
good to hear, what about noise? was it alot louder?
JoeKickass324. Only on bit of noise.... Sorry my English
I know im late but i have a problem with my 4t scooter. I changed the belt to 729 18 30 and now it only gets like 5500-6000 rpm when with the old belt it did around 8000-9000 rpm and im getting a 72cc top end today. And yeah when the scooter rly start going (takes a long time) it gets to about 7000 rpm and top speed with the new belt is 70kmh
compare the two belts side by side. Are they the same width? Same length?
@@FIFTYmil well the other is so worn out that its only 15mm wide and the new one is 18mm they are the same length. And i think i found the problem with the rpms the black rubbery thing (dont know whats it called in english) on top of the carburator was assembed by a jackass and it was sticking out of the black cap so it made holes in to it
@@teho-ostatso228 That's good to hear!
That 🪳 at 5:20
Thanks for replying it does seem to lug and rev high, when i did get going and tried to stop it was hard to turn round , ihad to hold both brakes on and try to walk it round. hope u can help again cheer,s
Sorry I must not have been clear. When an engine lugs, it would refuse to rev high and stay at a low RPM such as 3000RPM. When an engine revs high you would see 6000+ RPM. Which one did you witness going full throttle from standstill?
What is the product you blew?
Which product?
@@FIFTYmil the sandpaper you use to polish?
Your idle is the problem turn it down lower its constantly ingauging the clutch
you can make hole more for lighter clutch
Can,t get first gear on my 125cc scooter but i can get the others could it be the variator bge glad of any help thanks
To my knowledge scooters usually operate on a CVT automatic transmission. Is that what you have? If that is the case there shouldn't be any gears to select.
i have a clutch cover with drilled holes for cooling
Nice.
Could you do a video on your intake? And maybe your take on if they are worth the money to tune, especially considering that you have to rejet the carburettor when you are modifying the airbox iirc.
thanks
+William Winborne
Absolutely. Sorry I've been promising to do it but haven't gotten around to the ruckus or typhoon at all this year. I think intake mod is one of the most worthwhile modification to the ruckus especially if you installed a HO cam like me but will definitely make it less friendly to all weather conditions. Dyno findings suggest remarkable increase in horsepower compared to a similar mod such as exhaust. On another note- similar results were found drilling holes into the stock intake box if you're on a budget. While it doesn't look good, it certainly performs (if not outperforms) even a K&N snorkel intake.
Great, thank you so much for the info. I have found variators and intakes are both worthwhile mods. Looking forward to seeing your take on it in video, the drilled holes are interesting!
William Winborne For me, I find that the stock variator performs just fine unless your chasing top speed. Instead, a quick adjustment of the roller weights (10$) transformed the bike completely. They came with weights that are way too heavy for the bike and even Honda was aware of that with lighter weights and a higher RPM limit in the newer models .
What kind of welds are those on the bell?
factory spot welds
Drill hols in it like a drilled brake rotor
So you would randomly just drill holes into your clutch bell?
FIFTYmil no were the cluch make contact on the metal it will help the gases Escape witch in turn keep the metal cooler
yes but do you just randomly drill on that surface?
helloo..wich exshoust system is on your bike..
For this honda ruckus I have used the Yoshimura cyclone, custom FMF dirt bike exhaust, and now I have reverted back to the stock OEM 2005 exhaust (with the thicker manifold vs 2006+)
That’s not the clutch. That’s the clutch bell.
Good observation and that is exactly what I wrote in many comments. Most of the weight removed came off the perimeter ring of the clutch bell.
when you making super power nitro turbo tuning but your whel is like egg ....
💪
nice
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WTF? looks like this thing needs NEW CLUTCH SHOES! that alone will cut down on slippage!
From where did you get this information? Clutch pads are well within service limits and does not need to be replaced...
What does it do?
how fast are you going?
+Davin Link I'm currently maxing out at 51.4mph after a very long stretch of road verified by GPS. More importantly however, is the increased frequency which the ruckus is able to hit ~42mph and keep up with traffic. Overall the bike is a lot more rush hour "traffic friendly" now.
The pads on the other half don’t look worth a shit either try deglazing the pads it might last a litter longer
What about the other side.
Is it much faster? Any more pull off it
In my opinion, as I have replied others, the difference is not significant but definitely noticeable. If I didn't have any issues with the clutch (or if you're trying to extract the best performance out of the scooter at all cost - but in that case I would go with a more robust aftermarket clutch), I would have just left it stock to save the ~ 1 hour of work!
50mil sorry i haave to put the throttle full on , before it will move its like it is in higher gear. Its like being in a car trying to set off in 3rd gear
Depending how stiff your clutch pad engagement springs are, that might be normal. I used stiffer ones on my bike and now I rev till 7000RPM before the scooter begins moving. Alternatively, the same results from a poorly tuned carburetor struggling to get power before it can move the bike and you
not smart to remove th ecooling ring if anything you should have ruffed it up with cource sand paper to catch the wind better
vorkev1 not smart to take advice from someone that suggests (and mispells) “roughing up with COARSE sand paper to catch the wind better.”????? LMAO
@@FIFTYmil But turns out he is right lol
Anyone else getting a nervous breakdown from his fumbling
Not as nervous as the videos your posting hoping for the world to end.
@@FIFTYmil what is you teason to be trying to own everyone in ur comment section?? No hate just curios btw...
@@2dark_4fortnite88 what does "teason to be trying to own everyone" mean?
@@FIFTYmil typo thanks to touch keyboard. Its supposed to say what is ur reason to try own everyone who disagrees in ur comment section.
@@2dark_4fortnite88 I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say I'm owning people in comments. I'm just responding in the same manner as the op who commented, isn't that fair?
even with that filter your not helping. it hurts your low end. sis the same on mine at your dyno. on a slightly modded one close to tours its was right under 4lbtq. it may be uglier but go with stick or mover your filter further away
yo sum it up. doing stuff like this will hurt you bot help you brother. im not saying to be negative but many of us tries this when we were younger. its not the way to go. but hey. its your. you choose
How to increase Torque
Low speed set up, high consumption of gas, belt dos'not rise on top at high rpm,
Correct, if the roller weights are too light then you will waste gas and the belts will not be able to get to it's highest position.
5:18 there was a spider on the ground
I'd bet you a dollar that was an ant
@@FIFTYmil Those are some big ants tho 😋
@@xdkrismisxd7966 Thats what she said
@@FIFTYmil omg 🤣
Good good