I have to place Vi as Chaotic Good. I think it's a mistake to say she only cares about Powder. She cares about the Lanes and taking down Silco arguably even more and the two things often conflict. Actually she's a lot like Vander except she always thinks with her fists, hence Chaotic.
"I'm going to find my sister and erase whatever fucked up delusions you put in her head BUT FIRST I'm going to bring your bullshit empire down around you" sums it up pretty well. She's also willing to turn herself in at the beginning which can only be for the sake of the Lanes, certainly not Powder.
I actually agree with this, the only confusion is that VI is so stupid that its hard to imagine her being able to conceptualize what is necessary for good, but I guess thats the problem that results it in being chaotic
@@mumhustler I think Vi is very smart, as well as courageous. She’s always been a leader that was looked up to by all the kids around her, and that didn’t change when she got older. Vander saw Vi as someone who had great potential and mentored her - not just because of her good heart, but because she was capable. She got out of prison for a very short time and upon meeting Silco, with a single punch, took down quite a lot of shimmer production. She convinced Jayce to team up with her and take on Silcos empire. Vi is a very resourceful character. She’s smart as well as bold. Also, she was willing to probably spend her whole life in a jail cell, when offering herself as the “pound of flesh”, not only to protect Powder, but everyone else in the undercity. I’d say this goes beyond intelligence and into the realm of sacrifice and love.
I also really think Mel should be Lawful Neutral. She votes for peace at the end and is shown to have a merciful mindset in her flashback; she never does anything that's actively harmful to anyone. She sponsors hextech but technology is always inherently neutral. It's only the way people choose to use it that can be good or bad. She's ok with corruption but she's just playing the game she finds herself in. The status quo keeps top on top and the poor suffering, but that's the way it's always been and she's not trying to change that, i.e. she's neutral towards it. I also think it's a misinterpretation to say only cares about superficial things. Her comment about being the poorest Madarda reveals not how much she cares about money but how much she cares about proving herself to her family.
But if we put Jinx into the evil category, because she is doing all the things for herself and doesn't care much about others, how would Mel be neutral just because her actions in the council don't directly kill people, but indirectly lots of people in the undercity have to suffer and die because of the things the council does? To me the council with the exception of Heimer and Jayce have been clearly evil in the series, they all act 100% selfish, they are greedy, they are corrupt, they would never accept that their leadership was wrong and all of them should be exchanged. They are the same thing as the chem barons, just the richest guys leading in a way so they stay the richest. That's the thing I like about the rocket, it is a punishment for their corrupt deeds, which they would have never received otherwise. For Jinx we have atleast seen that she is feeling tremendous guilt when it comes to killing her family. That she is not feeling guilty for killing Enforcers, which are the guys who took her original parents and terrorized her city for a long time, or the firelights which are the aggresors against her all of the time, is atleast understandable. And killing during a mental breakdown is a terrible accident, I would even argue she played that one down to ease her mind, because she felt guilty for executing the firelight girl. I would still more likely put Jinx into the evil category than the neutral category, but Mel is the same or worse to me. Mel is feeling bad because her mother has killed the princess, but she would have been fine with turning the princess into a slave somewhere else, feeling like a saviour because she spared her life. That still vibes evil to me.
@@cinderspirit4229 one Mel could not let her go free even if she wanted to and two Mel has always been looking towards the betterment of Piltover and she was willing to leave behind zaun because that was the cost. However when given a better option for zaun she supported Jayce first in giving up her power. While all of her choice may not have been directly for the betterment of Piltover she did have to play the game of politics and because of this she was able to make big changes by holding back on other changes. For instance she was able to add a seat to the council and without her support at the end the council would not have agreed to let go of zaun. Jayce was able to show her the cost of leaving zaun behind and after that she chose to help make a difference for them.
I think Mel is generally a good person. Compassion and empathy is what got her exiled. Her mom, who has no problem with cruelty and horrible acts saw those as a weakness. Mel can break and follow the rules equally as long as her goals are met but she is not heartless like her mom. I would peg her as NG though her upbringing tries to drag her to true neutral (more like her mom who is bound to nothing but her cause).
Mel is definitely not Evil in any sense of the word. She's a person who has been powerless most of her life, subjected to the will of others and who has forged her own existence in a foreign land where she was exiled to due to her 'soft heart'. Yes, she is highly manipulative - she is after all a 'fox among the wolves' which is the life she chose from the examples she was given early in her life. She learned to survive and use her wiles to get ahead instead of resorting to violence. She chooses mercy and negotiation over bloodshed. Yes, she has a wicked wit and is not afraid to make other the butt of a private joke but she has not been shown to do anything out of malice or pure self-interest. Keep in mind she is one of if not THE youngest person on the council. AND her position is not from one of the Houses that have traditionally held a seat on the council. She had to make her way onto the council using her wits. You can say she didn't help Zaun, nor did any of the other council members, but you cannot blame the corruption of the council on a person who's been in Piltover for 20 years or less wherein we know for a fact that the corruption of the council and neglect of the undercity has been going on for generations - Silco, Vander and Viktor have had to live through it. It's easy to push the blame on a character that is obviously manipulative, but there's a difference between being manipulative and being malicious. Mel has not shown any malice behind her actions. She will bend others to her will as a means of getting ahead and surviving, yes, but that is the environment she has been raised in. Nurture, not Nature. Her nature, as was shown in the flashback, is one who is compassionate and will seek compromise. She pleads for the princess's life and tries to find any reason to spare her even though her mother had already made the decision to end the girl's life. The trauma of the princess's death still haunts her to this day. A callous person - or one designated as Evil - would not hold on to something like that. Mel does. She also does not push for war, she pushed for Jayce and Viktor to make weapons for Piltover to defend themselves against what was perceived as a threat. People in her city had been attacked and killed. She wants to defend her home, so the kneejerk reaction of someone born in a militaristic regime is going to be to arm themselves - but you see her change her mind very quickly when she realizes its her Noxus upbringing peeking out. She realizes that violence only begets more violence and speaks out to find a different way. She goes COUNTER to Jayce when he's talking about taking the fight to them - about war. Again, not Evil, not motivated by self-interest. I do believe that Mel is often given a very bad wrap and people don't recognize the nuance of her character or the motivations behind her actions. I wholeheartedly disagree that she should be considered Lawful Evil. Lawful, sure, but Lawful Neutral or....dare I even say it, Lawful Good.
I propose Ren (aka Marcus Jr) is actually Neutral Good: 1) She helped her father with the burial of the fallen enforcers, honoring the heroes of Piltover. Certainly an act more selfless than selfish. 2) She received Silco on her father's behalf when he was busy working AND entertained the guests by offering up her toys. Truly the unsung hero of the show. 😇 Also, the concept of a Chaotic Evil hero sounds very interesting indeed.
It could be noted that she could have just done those things to try and get recognition from Marcus rather than actually applying good intentions to her acts, so it all could have been completely selfish. Y'know what they say, children are the best manipulators.
Jinx being chaotic evil was pretty straight forward for me (even though we, the audience, have rooted for her rescue/redemption). But I can see Marcus' daughter and Heimerdinger's dog joining forces and taking over the city. :-(
I feel she isn't exactly chaotic evil though. She doesn't go out of her way to cause harm. If she had a button that said get a $1,000,000 or a button that said get $1,000,000 but kill a bunch of people as well. Jinx would press the first one whereas a chaotic evil person, such as the joker would 100% choose the second. She is extremely apathetic to human life but she doesn't go out of her way to cause suffering. So overall I think she is closer to Chaotic Neutral than chaotic evil. Granted i know alignment charts are just a way to organize things and doesn't really work for complex characters. But with the general framework of how it is she's closer to CN than CE
@@Garnzlok She kills dozens of people on a whim, you really can't get more textbook CE than that. Chaotic alignment is all about being self-serving, her not going out of her way to kill people(which clearly isn't true anyways) would just shift her to NE, not CN.
@@Limrick1029 If i recall correctly her main moments of killing were during her fights and the bombs she used for a distraction to get the completed crystal correct? So she used them to get to what she wanted which would not be on a whim. She isn't super pragmatic or goal oriented and is too unpredictable to be NE. So far she hasn't killed anyone just cause there has been a reason for it. Be it they were enemies attacking her or things she was charged to protect, good use for a distraction, or have wronged her in her mind. the final scene of her shooting the hextech powered rocket at the council is her in her mind following silco's will and to strike back against those who she could view as the source of all her problems. This is very different from for example the joker who is often cited as THE CE character. He kills just cause, he kills for killings sake, he kills for destruction. So far Jinx hasn't been like that, she may become like that in the second season but is not the case as of this moment.
the alignments at the end absolutely destroyed me. i wasn't aware there were so many tyrants hiding in plain sight... i hope they touch on it in season 2.
No I don''t think Marcus "arrested" Vi. In his mind, he "saved" her. It was his repentance for his role in Greyson's death. He felt guilty for one person's death so to make up for it, he saved another person. 1) He stopped Vi from getting killed while trying to save Powder (which she would have almost certainly died if she tried to protect Powder in that moment) 2) He hid her in a prison where she would be "safe" from Silco for the next decade.---That moment when he grabbed Vi had nothing to do with him doing his job
Interesting point. I've always assumed Marcus brought Vi back as the scapegoat for the council. But it's probably a bit of both. Also, he went to the risk of lying to Silco about her. As Silco said to Ren: "Daddy here assured me, that she left with him." While he didn't neccessarily lie to protect her, it certainly did have that effect.
@@Redymare I don't believe the council was even aware of Vi's arrest, so I doubt that was the intention behind Marcus's actions. Plus, if I remember correctly, when Caitlyn went to see Vi in prison, I believe she mentioned that there is no record of Vi in the prison itself and that the reason for her arrest was never recorded. I'd have to go back and rewatch to catch the exact wording, but it was in episode 5. That would further prove that Marcus was not arresting Vi to appease the council
@@Redymare Nah, I think they give us his motives when he grabs Vi. "You can't go out there, they'll kill you." This is him "saving her." This show doesnt make someone say something unless it has IMMENSE and deliberate means. So his act of saving Vi is just that. No ill intentions at all. He's just too much of a pussy to allow her to be free of prison because he knows it will get him in trouble.
@@Redymare He didn't lie to Silco, Marcus told him Vi was arrested. He just never expected an upper class citizen with the trust of the most influential man in the city to accidentally investigate Vi through two degrees of coincidence (the botched shipment and Vi beating up exactly the one lead).
@@SeventhSolar from the way their conversations are phrased, and Silco's exclamation of "(back) From the dead!?" upon finding out that Vi is back, implies that Marcus assured him that he personally saw to Vi being killed.
I would add to your observations about Milo - to me, he seems to have some sort of inferiority complex. He has a specialised skill that he isn't really good at (picking locks. it doesn't work out till ep 3). In the street fight, he was the only one that didn't eventually win by himself and needed Vi's help. And in the fight club whete they stay, you can actually see Clogger's name holds the last two places. So after Powder, he is the weakest in the group. We even have scene where she outdoes him, so if it wasn't for her emotional problems and inexperience, perhaps Powder would've been more skilled. However, we see his condescending attitude in his body language as well as his words. And he brags around "Saying we have a nice haul?" and "We worked too hard for this". When he complains about Powder he does so to Vi, not only because they are sisters, but also since she is the leader. So, to me, he clearly wants to be higher in the non-existant hierchy in the group and puts Powder down for that reason.
imo, I do think that his but simply just one of those kids who loves to complain all the time though. And maybe there is truth in what his saying as jinx being inexperienced does place additional chance of getting trouble and higher possibility of being caught in every mission they get to.
@@schnee1 I'll even take this a bit further that, I feel like Milo is a representation of everyone who is they themselves not useful, or not being impactful or talented, and instead pointing out the same in Powder and Jinx to cope. There's so many representations of this. Sevika, the chem barons, all point out that Jinx is the cause of all these problems, but in actuality, what are they doing to further this cause? Sevika's group got tied up by the Firelights, and were about to lose all of the Shimmer without Jinx's interruption. And sure Jinx shoots a few people, but she still gets more shit done than them. She kills a couple firelights, and ultimately probably salvaged something. Yet in the end Sevika turns it on Jinx, as if things would have been alright without her. If we think about it, Jinx is constantly getting shit done, while others are taking L's left and right. She gets the hex gem and gives Zaun the advantage, and eventually is why they have a bargaining chip to even get the peace that Silco fought so hard for. I always find it interesting that perhaps Powder isn't quite as "jinxed" as even she's represented in this show, simply that she has this knack for people blaming her because she goes a bit overboard, but in the end, things were gonna go badly anyway. That's why I actually have this theory that in Ep 3 they were never going to get away from Silco. They had plenty of men left, everyone's injurted, that doors probably coming any second. Yet Powder get's blamed because wrong place, wrong time, and people want to project and deflect their own inadequacies.
@@lockekappa500 Err yes I agree with all of this Jinx is a like the unstoppable flow of time and space Or the spark that sets off the powderkeg (no pun intended) Its not the fault of the spark - who left open a full powedkeg there???? And besides, Piltover and Zaun looked like they wanted it out. Chemtech vs Hectech. Its funny no one points out the symbolism of the two technologies. They are 2 different philosophic / axiomatic systems - external / technological vs the internal / biological No one seems to ever talk about this analysis angle. In particular w/ Silco and Singed / Zaun being the invested in Chemtech, while Jayce/Council being in Hextech.
@@mumhustler "Jinx is the unstoppable flow of time and space." I love it, perfectly said. Shit goes wrong, life sucks. Trauma and loss happens, and sometimes there's not always someone to blame. Jinx is the embodiment of that blame, she shoulders it all, and gets blamed for all of the wrong that happens in this world. Think of how much wrong is being done in Ep 3, how many people are indirectly to blame for Vander/Mylo and Claggors death. Jayce, Heimer, the entire council, Sevika, Vi, Silco. And yet it all gets thrown on the shoulders of a little 11 year old girl who just wanted to do good and prove herself. That's Jinx's super power. Truly heartbreaking.
I think Vi does genuinely wants to see Zaun's suffering end or at least lessen. When she talks to the council, she tells them that the bomb is Jinx's when Caitlyn hesitates, which is the morally correct thing to do, but it puts her sister in danger (Jayce wants to have Jinx put in prison for attacking Piltover when talking with Silco and he only knows it was Jinx because Vi told the council about the bomb). And she's urging them to take Silco down not because he has Powder, but because shimmer hurts the people of Zaun. When she takes direct action, she first takes out the shimmer production factory, and then goes to Sevika and try and get Powder. In addition, she is willing to give up herself and be arrested even as a kid, because it would keep her family and city safe despite incurring suffering for herself. She also goes back for Caitlyn on the bridge when she's in danger and even leaves her sister on the bridge because Caitlyn is hurt and needs her. She seems to place the same value on being the protector as Vander did and is willing to sacrifice a lot, including herself. She's also focused on Powder partially because of guilt, but also trying to protect her and be a good sister, even when Jinx has her gun in Vi's face. She's trying to do the right thing even with Powder. To me, that's enough to earn her neutral good. Also, I think the reason Marcus arrests Vi is to keep her safe from Silco because he feels guilty for getting Vander, Benzo, and Grayson killed, which is why he kept it a secret, but why he threw her in Stillwater indefinitely without checking up on her still doesn't make sense to me because at that point, why not just let her die instead of letting her rot in prison her whole life?
Yeah Vi was the only one I couldn't really agree with. I feel like she has to be Good because she always has selfless intentions (even if her desire to save Powder and the Lanes in general by taking down Silco often conflict) and Chaotic because she always reacts with her fists instead of thinking things through.
For Marcus - remember that while he wants to *think* he's a good person, he's not. It's likely that he informed the council that the perpetrator of the bombing was arrested & jailed (and he truly believes Vi did the deed, remember he saw Vander choosing to take the fall for her). However, as a potential witness to Silco talking to him about 'their deal' after Greyson's murder, Marcus would be putting himself at risk if Vi was freed and able to talk to others. And Marcus, at his core, is a coward. So he locks her up, throws away the key, tell himself it's for her own good, and puts the uncomfortable truth of his own evil behind him. Out of sight, out of mind.
@@Taliesin_ Agreed, except I'm not sure how likely it is he informed the council of the arrest. If he had, they certainly would have wanted to make it public to put people's minds at ease and what reason could he have offered for why he couldn't? Perhaps he WANTED to do all that and only realized how trapped he was after the fact.
@@tothesun Maybe he told them that it was a child? The Council cares a lot about appearances, after all. Locking up children is bad press. Far better to assure people that a dangerous, faceless criminal has been locked away for everyone's safety. But yeah, this is something that likely could have played out either way. In the end, Marcus got his promotion, and the Council stopped sending enforcers into Zaun.
I've always thought it's probably not a coincidence that Marcus's daughter has a passing resemblance to Vi--red hair, blue eyes, freckles. His daughter seems the right age to have been a baby in Act 1, so I've always assumed that he also couldn't kill Vi because she reminded him of his daughter. Definitely not a selfless reason, but I just love all the little meaningful background details in the show. And I would also place Vi closer to Chaotic or Neutral Good, especially toward the end of the season. I think she may have been more of a true neutral when she first got out of prison, but interacting with Caitlyn and Ekko over those 5 days did seem to have an impact on her and help her see the bigger picture. I'm a little scared for her next season, though. Vander telling her not lose her good heart no matter how the world tries to break her sounds like a statement that's meant to be tested to its limits, so I think she, and we, are in for a rough ride...
I think the Viktor and the explosive scene has an even deeper meaning than just showing off his coolness. In this slight moment he thinks about just not cutting the wire, just letting it happen and setting an end to his own suffering.
He saw what Hextech could very well become and was extremely close to letting all of their research die with him and Jayce if it meant it wouldn’t be weaponized was my interpretation.
Imo it's also about his opinion on war. He could've chosen to let the bomb explode and kill himself, Jayce, and their research, but he didn't. Because "There is always a choice."
I also saw this as a another metaphor when viewed in context with the conversation they were having: The argument gets more heated causing Viktor to slip up and activate the grenade. The situation has gone from shouting to both parties are now in danger. Viktor keeps a cool head and safely disarms the bomb. This emphasizes his point that they are never "out of options" when dealing with Zaun, that it IS entirely up to them wether or not this conflict gets more violent.
I absolutely disagree with Mel being "evil." Lawful neutral is where she belongs. She will do some manipulative and corrupt things for personal gain, but she does not have any malevolent intent towards others and does try to govern in a peaceful and compassionate fashion unlike, say, her mother. Mel is NOT evil.
I feel you. But being fully aware of evil acts, encouraging them, and participating in them is evil. Even if the person themselves don’t want to be evil. I want her to be neutral too and I feel like she comes so close. But she just allows to much to happen and some of it for her own gain. That decision at the end really could have put her in that category because it would be her reaching out and giving a little instead of just being power hungry. But I don’t believe that will be the case.
@@acid634 I don't know how aware she is tbh. And she definitely has good intentions and really wants the best for Piltover and Zaun. Mel believes in mercy and dislikes violence etc which is why she votes for Zauns independence in the end
I was thinking caothic good for Vi, she has the best intentions cares about everyone she comes into contact with but if also backfires, for eksempel the Tea party where she tried to help Jinx but was in fact triggering her PTSD.
when Jayce kills the child she wants to push forward the operation killing other children just to reach her goal to destory shimmer/kill Silco, this is utter disregard for human life, she cannot be by any definition good
The other point against her goodness is how she treats Caitlyn vs. how she treats Jayce. She clearly cares about Caitlyn. So what does she do every time she expects fighting? Pushes her away or ditches her. Who does she recruit to go fighting with her? Jayce. She barely would've felt anything for him if he'd been hurt or killed during their raid, and she's ready to fight him for what *she* wants.
@@fixpontt she did it with good intentions though. she looked upset at the dead kid, but immediately took action to destroy the shimmer, which, by the way, is an action that would actually help so many more lives. no more children running these factories, no more orphans and deaths to shimmer, no more wealth for silco, no more of the harm that silco causes-this is a VERY good act. she’s action-oriented 100% of the time, but her actions are almost always justified. her intentions may SEEM selfish because she’s doing it to help powder and satisfy her past, but she’s also doing it to prevent anyone from ever being in the same position her and powder once were in. her actions seem impulsive, but are 100% aligned with her intents, which is to do good for the future of the story. chaotic good, i think, or perhaps neutral good, since she’s strict on her intentions, and that’s essentially the code she lives and acts by.
@@sophie6744 I think at her core she's Neutral Good, but Powder causes her to go against her Good ways and stray into the neutral aspects of things. One could say that even the concept of keeping Jinx alive when Caitlyn is against her goes against any "good" she could have. Jinx is a force that needs to be stopped, and Vi isn't willing to do whats right to stop her.
@@fixpontt you severy misunderstood why she was okay with casualties like that when fighting against Silco. It's because kids are dying constantly because of him. She'd rather take matters in her own hands and end the suffering even if it means people will be caught in the crossfire. That kid that died is still Silco's doing. He shouldn't have employed them in a factory.
Once I read a reddit post about Singed being the ultimate bro, because he saved Jinx when she was injured, also he helped Viktor when he was in doubt about what to do; he even notices that Viktor is not doing great because of his illness even though is the first time they meet in a long time. I think he is chaotic neutral.
You just gotta get him interested in the scientific value. You could probabably get him to invent a machine that prints puppies or build the first ps5 of Runeterra if you bring it up to him
Singed after he is done doing what he does in League lore is the most Chaotic Evil you may ever see. Besides, I think he only helps because he knows something is in it for him. Also, is seems like he invented Shimmer, but doesn’t seem to make money off of it, so he just kond of invented a monster drug because he could.
Singed is a really fascinating character and I dont know whether or not I agree with his placement on a morality chart...since he is basically 100% amoral. He couldnt care less whether or not he should do something, he just wants to see if he can. The extent to which I would say he is selfishly motivated is that he just wants to be able to continue pushing the boundaries of science, consequences be damned, without getting arrested or killed. I guess my beef with placing him as chaotic evil is that I've always taken that to be impulsive and selfish, and neither of those are characteristics I'd attribute to Singed. Actually, I understand most Chaotic alignments to be self serving (maybe I'm wrong here). He cant be placed anywhere with the word Lawful attached to it, considering he has zero respect for any existing structure if the possibility to escape it exists. That leaves the neutrals....if I had to place (Arcane) Singed it would either be True Neutral or Neutral Evil. The consequences of his actions on the world make me want to put him in Neutral Evil, but his motivations aren't inherently ethical, one way or the other...the dude just seeks potential and has the stomach to see it realized no matter what. He isnt doing it to better or burn the world, he is trying to find the absolute limits and push past them. I almost cant believe I'm saying this, knowing what he does in League Lore, but I almost think that if we take his motivations and personal ethics separate from the impact he has in the story, I would put him at True Neutral. He doesnt do what he does with the intent of doing harm, but he is willing to accept the cost of doing harm to fulfill his experiments. Ironically, he is probably the best spokesperson in the show for the City of Progress, if we are to take into account not only the benefits of progress but the potential costs.
@@The_SinisterMister well, according to League's lore he invented the chemical warfare in that universe so that just can't be neutral, he consciously ended a war by his own means dooming thousands in the process, chaotic evil fits perfectly
7:44 I dont think you understood the scene with jinx's explosive. Its not like he doesn't know what to do, but keeps cool under pressure and solves it out. He knows EXACTLY what to do, but just for a moment, he thinks about not pulling that knife and blowing them both up
Placing Jayce and Vander on the good axis feels right, but I think it's interesting that they still bear a large responsibility for the suffering of Zaun. Vander for upholding a status quo where people die from pollution and malnourishment, Jayce for overreacting and sending in the enforcers when he panics and wants to protect the "security" of Piltover.
It's all about intent. Good intents can still lead to bad outcomes, but doesn't diminish the goodness in these people's hearts. Whether it is "best" choice (how ever you may define it) or not is a different question.
@@Pallyrulez NOPE. It's about favourites. Mel should be Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good but we all know how the general audience feels about her. they despise her.
@@williampearson6299 look while I agree she is good at heart. I think we can both agree that her actions in this season were questionable and lacking in ethical thinking. It’s not until she has more vulnerable moments with a character like Jayce who influences her and brings out the inate.
The side characters... OH the side characters, you're killing me schnee xD At first it seemed genuine "aha Sky, nice analysis, it really does happen often irl too", Cait's parents "also true", poro "oh.. hehe, that's funny" but then came Marcus' daughter, and it killed me, then Matilda resurrected me just to kill me again, great sense of humor and comedic timing
I would put Vi in the neutral good or chaotic good category. She doesn't only care about Vi but does care about Caitlyn as well, at the end way more than for Jinx. She did lead the small group of kids and tried her best to care for them and took the lead after her parents died. She did take up responsibility for the heist by trying to turn herself in. After the attempt of Vander turning himself in goes South like a rocket, she collects her crew for a rescue mission. So far she punched people who she thought of as bad, like Sevika and the other Silco goon. Yet she didn't kill either despite having had the option for Sevika. She does care for Zaun, which is the reason why Caitlyn successfully gets her to talk to the council. She does go straight to Jayce when that didn't work to go for a violent solution of the drug trade problem. [Plus would have continued if Jayce didn't chicken out] She doesn't act lawfully, but she isn't truly neutral about stuff happening around her.
I slightly disagree with singed, the apathy on his part is there, but when it came time to help Viktor for no real benefit to him he did, he sedates silco when he was treating jinx, he seems to have a code of honor to people he respects, I think that leans him towards neutral. Great video.
Singed's personal motivation is scientific progress though. So I think he helps Viktor because he's interested in his hexcore project (he even verbally expresses that interest) and wants him to continue working on it and is probably curious what will happen if Viktor uses it in combination with shimmer. So while it maybe doesn't benefit him directly I think his motivation is still more on the selfish side, more doing it out of curiosity than sympathy.
I think you did as good of a job as someone can do with this difficult question. The aliment chart was meant to help organizing Pen and paper campaigns. It can not completely describe complex characters. So in the end this whole thing is just a fun exercise to think more about these characters. I would perhaps call Mel more delusional than evil. She is quite like Jayce but even more misguided. I just can't buy her "I just wanted to protect Piltover." thing. With her it is never just "just". She is more chaotic than lawfully I say. As she seems to see herself to be above the law. She did break rules by helping Jayce and Victor.
Interesting take on Mel, I hear it. Silco could also fit into the delusional misguided category, different characters reacting to the same type of delusion about their efforts
@@schnee1 100% A lot of Silco and Mel's motivations come from delusions as to why their motives are "just." Silco has been pushed to SUCH an extreme (almost murdered by his own brother, and essentially having a near death experience) that he feels pushing others to that extreme is considered a good thing. He wants to kill Powder and push Jinx further into her chaotic ways because that is what made him strong. He's pushing Zaun, "drowning" it in Shimmer because he attributes that process as instilling strength. So much of his manipulation he actually believes is necessary, even if it is toxic. Same with Mel, I think she actually thinks this is all to "protect Piltover from people like you." As she said to her mother. But she never really goes about any of her means in a "just" way. Mel and Silco are absolutely an "ends justify" the means type of person. Not just that, but actually that SPECIFIC means are necessary in order to achieve a specific end. A trial by fire of sorts.
@@schnee1 Mel is not chaotic at all. She is the most composed character in Arcane. She is Lawful Neutral. She plays the political game that has been established long before her and when an opportunity arises to help advance Piltover, she takes it. That's why she helped - even though it was breaking the rules, her investment in Jayce garnered great returns with HexTech.
The only one I really disagree with is Jayce. I don't see him as chaotic. Sure, he was doing illegal research, but he was also careful about it, to the point where before the explosion nobody knew about it. Also, a chaotic character would've revealed the Atlas Gauntlet and Hexclaw, not caring about Heimer's warnings. And yes, although he does play along with Mel's corruption, he also attempts to crack down on the illegal smuggling from Zaun. Also, he had no intention of attacking the Shimmer factory before Vi nudged him, since the council was against it. Considering all that, for me he's Neutral Good Hmm...thinking about it now...I might also change Viktor to Chaotic Good. Sure, he has personal motives but who doesn't? Many times he points out that he's pushing to advance Hextech in order to help people who need it now, instead of waiting like Heimer says Ok ok last one. Yes, Mel is corrupt and yes, she pushed to make Hextech weapons, but she doesn't want war. She wants stability. So, like the other council members, I'd make her Lawful Neutral
I'd also say that singed isn't chaotic either, it seems his only argument for that being the case is he is acting outside of the law(in the place where they don't really enforce it so is it really law) but other than that we don't see anything pointing to him being chaotic, the only time it looks like he is, is when jinx is on the operating table, and she is shown time and time again to have hallucinations of things that aren't there, he seems to me to have the outline of a plan the entire time, to me he seems to be a sociopathic character, able to have emotional bonds (his kid, and victor) while have a complete disregard for others, like after he is done working on jinx he doesn't even register that silco might want some peace of mind and simply keeps working cause why would it matter if he knows or not, just another person, but who knows, we certainly don't and he can only take guesses, only the show can say for certain
I would agree any character who teeters on lawful and chaos is automatically neutral, Jayce does value order but he is not beholden to it and will break the law and orderly construct to what he thinks is right. Neutral good.
I vouch Viktor for chaotic good as well, at least until we see his transformation... A good example is when Jayce goes to Viktor telling him that they may have to weaponize hextech to be ready for a possible war, and Viktor is beyond mad declaring to Jayce that "we are scientists, not soldiers", "we are to help lives, not take them" somewhere along those lines. He is deathly ill and when you are at that point you have nothing to lose, so that kind of explains his "chaotic" actions he may have displayed
did not expect you to upload an alignment video lol, very interesting to watch though. i remain excited for whatever you upload (also marcus jr. was hilarious neutral evil)
@@schnee1 I love when I get that feeling. Inspiration doesn't always come so easily so when it does it's very exciting. I like the reason you gave for doing this video. I appreciate that you so often remind us that this is a discussion and your not trying to tell us what to think.
@@schnee1 From the very first character, Mel Medarda, you're entirely off base. Mel didn't say that she wanted something "revolutionary" for her own benefit, she said she "wanted something revolutionary", "something that would put PILTOVER on the map". She's already the richest person in the city, regardless of her complex standing with her family, she's an exile and wants nothing to do with them and having more money than herself is redundant. Councilor Medarda is in it for making the place where she resides "great", not herself. Aggrandizement isn't even in her character, but actually making a difference is. And throughout the entire course of the show, even in the 8 YEARS between when she first assisted Jayce and Viktor to their hex-tech breakthrough, until the present day of the remainder of the story, making Piltover a success has been her ONLY mission. Achievement, in Mel's view, IS the reward. Growth, prosperity and innovation for her city. Mel didn't "turn a blind eye" to the low ball, palm greasing taking place in Piltover, because she isn't naive to how politics works. But she showed Jayce how to work within that established framework in order to retain control and gain autonomy over his experiments. Just think for a second. If Mel was "all about herself" as YOU claim, then she would want the recognition for having aided Jayce and Viktor to their discovery before the time jump. She'd want to see HER FACE on all of those dirigibles and banners throughout the city. She'd scarcely mention wanting to make Piltover a better place. But instead, both before and after the jump, her only concern is freeing up Jayce so that he can better control his science, which creates innovations, which help bolster Piltover. So, she didn't do a "180". She never advocated for weapons UNTIL she brokered the idea of self-defense weaponry AFTER Jinx's grenades were discovered. And she NEVER advocated for war. This should have been abundantly clear by the time her mother showed up, who ended up being diametrically opposed to her political ideology even as a child. She told her mother that war was not Piltover's first and last recourse, like it was Noxus'. She said she sponsored hex-tech weaponry to help defend the city from people like Ambessa and Silco. But somehow you think that after those arguments and angry confessions to her warmongering mother, that she THEN did a 180?! You read the character completely wrong, friend. Or do you think Mel keeps a wall sized painting of the blood and necklace of the young regent her mother executed, above her bed, because that's what she one day aspires to be? The same as the woman who ostensibly exiled her and thinks mercy is a weakness? Think again. Mel is not the self-interested schemer that so many viewers mistake her to be. She's a cunning politician who happened to be the ONLY ONE doing her civic duty for Piltover, on that council. For the record, hex-gate technology alone must have done WONDERS for their jobs economy. You say Mel was selfish and didn't help anyone but the elites? Did the elites construct hex-towers all over Runeterra? Or did Piltover's working class? In episode 4 when Heimerdinger is telling Jayce about Stanwick Padidly, did you see all of the scaffoldings surrounding the construction of all those new buildings in Piltover?? This should go without saying, but when your economy gets a boost like Piltover's did through those hex-gates, PEOPLE GET PUT TO WORK!!! There would be all sorts of new jobs created in both the public AND private sector, including new cottage industries. Everything from infrastructure, maintenance of the hex-gate towers, increased security and law enforcement, new airship industries, expanded municipalities, tourism, international commerce, travel, civic construction, increased attendance at the Piltover Academy, (which means a hiring boost in instructors as well as an increase in tuition from new students), new pilots and aspects of international profits rolling in from wherever Piltover's businesses related to these industries sprang up in other cities and countries. All that AND the outside investments that Mel was trying to help Jayce secure, because... guess what? All of that research don't pay for itself! Job creation on THAT level is precisely what a councilor such as Medarda is put in place to do by having a seat on that council. But you're saying all she did was help herself and a few elites?? You're not watching the same show that I am, man. Or you're just choosing to see it how you want to, sans reality. Because on the show that I saw, when Jayce suggested that they shut down ALL hex-tech related industries until they found out who detonated those bombs, the first things that were mentioned was how many thousands of people were going to lose their income if that happened. I don't know how you could miss all of this obvious stuff, but it makes your video lose credibility when you pretend that what's happening doesn't involve anything that I've written, when it does, absolutely. "Lawful evil"? LMAO! Also, at what point did Mel look like she was seeking Ambessa's "approval"? Because when it came to her and her mother, all I saw was diametric opposition, both in thought, action and ideology, from her youth until now. She never once seemed remotely like she wanted her mother to be "proud" of her, as evidenced by the first words out of her mouth when Ambessa docked in Piltover and the look of disdain on Mel's face that she was even there. It's like you're making up your own story, but completely ignoring the one being presented to you. (smh)
Grayson: "for me knowing how to handle this weapon means being able to protect people, to be of service to the city" "Don't you think we've pushed them hard enough?" She resists the council in trying to oppress Zaun, So even though she was the Sheriff I don't think she had any control at all over trying to improve the situation for Zaun. I have to put her in lawful good because none of the evil enforcer actions we see in the show seem to be in her control at all. The has the clear goal of trying to protect people.
It's hard to say if Grayson is the norm of what an Enforcer should be, or if she's the outlier in this scenario. I'd like to think enforcers by default should be good, but evidence shows us otherwise.
@@lockekappa500 they should be, but that doesn't mean that they are. A lot of cops in USA have a lot less morals and care for others for someone who's job is primarily to protect other people. Same goes for the enforcers.
@@mathies3598 Oh I agree with you there, and not to support anti-cop rhetoric, but cops and those who work in the law enforcement industry seem to be almost a product of their environment. It's hard to blame someone for becoming hardened in a profession that almost demands it. Which is why people like Grayson are so commendable in their defiance of the norms.
@@lockekappa500 yeah, but there's a big difference being hardened and downright cruel and brutal... for me that's always just too far. I'm not anti-cop at all, i've seen many instances of police working just fine in my country. But I understand why a lot of Americans are after all the videos I see online. Be like Grayson, don't be like Marcus.
@@lockekappa500 There’s a difference between being hardened and being unnecessarily cruel to a group of people based on factors they can’t control like where they can live and the color of their skin and how much money they make. Arcane does a great job at showing how easily corruptible the police force is. It shows that for some (like Caitlyn), it’s just “a few bad apples”. But for those that enforcers can get away with abusing (like Vi), the force itself is corrupted. Those that people in power can get away with abusing are always abused even if others can’t see it. Arcane writes that message really, so I recommend rewatching and thinking about whether you’re one of the people that the police can get away with abusing.
Wow it feels illegal to be this early lmao But in all seriousness, this is a great analysis. I think they are all accurate and I really appreciate the honorable mentions for side/background characters! Keep up the good work😁👍
I just want to say that your videos are entertaining as hell, I usually avoid long videos but I stayed here throughout. You honestly deserve more views and subs Also- You did Marcus Jr soo dirty lmaoo
Can I just say how much I appreciate you jumping straight into the discussion at the start of every video? No intro, no filler, straight to the point. I love it
I think you're missing one key line sevika says, "(I was not tempted) for a worm like him, but he wont be the last." Which in one line I think clearly submits her loyalty only to the cause. It's just that between Silco and the Cp2077 NPC Silco is still the best for the cause. She is open to Silco about her loyalty for him weakening.
Great video! However, after watching the part about Viktor just one big detail that could change the placement of Viktor. Viktor can not physically destroy the Hexcore himself. He has put his own matter into it, and the Hexcore actually speaks to Viktor, preventing him from doing what he knows is right. This is why when Jayce came and interrupted his suicide attempt, Viktor pleads for Jayce to destroy the Hexcore, but Jayce refuses. Even though Viktor is unable to ever destroy the Hexcore, because once again it has power over him, Viktor tries to destroy it the only other way he could via his partner.
OMG another cool detail I just noticed! If you haven't realized yet, the color of characters eyes are VERY important in Arcane, Gray eye=character isn't themselves/reach potential/etc. Viktors eyes, when being a scientist, inventor, and a man fighting time, his eyes are brown. However, when trying to smash the Hexcore you may realize in the few moments he nearly does smash the hexcore his pupils are grey, but each second he reconsiders and hesitates his eyes are brown. What I think this means is it is out of character or out of his character development (the path that leads to his ingame character) to smash the hexcore, as if he had there simply wouldn't be a Viktor in league.
You show a real understanding for the nuances of the archetypes, and it was fun listening to the struggle and logic behind the labels you chose. Great video!
I just binged your entire arcane playlist. Loved your insights and humor and your voice is super easy to listen to! Really great content thanks for your work.
I actually dislike the lawful vs chaotic label a lot for these charts. This is because the chart is attempting to display a spectrum where one end is the opposite of another, but fails to do so. Law is not the opposite of chaos, the opposite of chaos is stability. For instance let’s discuss Singed. I think singed is the least chaotic character in the series, because as you said he values scientific progress over all else and proves that time and time again. Singed is very consistent in his values and decisions, antithetical to being chaotic. However he can’t be put as lawful because his actions go against societal norms, and he is too extreme to be neutral making him very difficult to place on this chart.
I don't think Marcus arrested Vi to make topsiders feel safe. I think he arrested VI to make himself feel better. I think he thought himself a knight in shining armor by "protecting" this girl from Silco. I think he would even feel more justified in his decision in the aftermath when Silco was looking to make sure Vi was dead. I think it was a move to make himself feel like a hero and it was completly self absorbed.
You can make that argument for any character who does a "good" action (they just wanted to make themselves feel more noble). It's impossible to disprove.... so I don't like assuming it! I think this is a point in favor of Marcus, he tried to do a good(ish) deed by saving Vi, relatively saving her anyway
I love all your analysis videos so much, you explain things so logically and well. Keep up the good work and I look forward to more great content from you!! Glad to see a fellow intellect who understands Chuck's relevance to the deeper themes of arcane xD
Lawful means to operate within the confines of the word- if not the spirit- of the law of the land, or some form of personal code of ethics / conduct. Neutral means neither significantly caring for, nor having any true opposition to laws, rules, or personal codes, but serving one's own desires, be they benevolent, selfish, or something else. Chaotic means disregarding laws, rules, and codes in pursuit of whatever is of one's interest in the moment, being unpredictable.
I can't see Mel as Lawful Evil when she argued for sparing the girl her mother killed. She was exiled because her mother saw her compassion as weakness.
In the same way that Powder's trauma changed her, to me it seems like Mel's abandonment also changed her. She went from being a level headed compassionate young diplomat-in-training to a resentment-driven money/status obsessed politician. I think you're right that that part of her is good, and it does come back in the end, but with the way these categories force you boil down the character into an essential good/evil label, the evil is outweighing the good for me
@@schnee1 for me she still is Lawfull Neutral. She isn't good, she is... apathic. She maybe manipulates the council, but the council isn't that good either,and she helped Jayce, but is still greedy... I guess lawful neutral fits her good
I really like your take on this. I would have gone a completely different route on a lot of these, but I think the majority of yours are much better then the places I would put them. And it makes for a very engaging and surprising video. And poro (the fluffy goat dog thing) is definitely lawful evil. Everyone knows if you have a scar and a different coloured eye, you are immediately a villain.
Love your work. I disagree with your characterization of Mel. I agree that she is initially partly motivated by self interest and greed- not more so than any other council member (Heimerdinger aside). She’s absolutely better at reading people and playing the game than the rest of the council, but that doesn’t mean she has worse or motives. However I think that even in the beginning she also really wants to put good into the world. I think that she’s as awed by the potential of magic to change the world as Jayce and Viktor and their willingness to put their entire futures on the line gives her confidence that they can handle it. I feel like the only way to see her vote for giving Zaun its independence as a last minute alignment shift if if you believe that she was trying manipulate Jayce at every turn including telling him he should be with Viktor when he was in the hospital. I think the most manipulative thing she did to Jayce was put him on the council. The scene at the concert was her giving him the lay of the land, and yes it was definitely self serving, but I think she really does believe in Hextech as something that can make the world better which is why she’s wants it (and Jayce) to succeed and flourish. We see in the glimpse of her childhood that she values human life, but between being exiled for her compassion and Piltover‘s culture of masks she’s used to hiding herself. She believes in Hextech and Jayce so much that she starts to take her mask off for him before she even has reason to think that he really cares for her beyond what she was able to do for him. I think she meant it when she said she wanted to give and not just take. She also is in direct opposition to her mother’s war mongering in Piltover from the start. Mel suggests Hextech weapons because she was raised by a woman who she saw murder a defenseless girl to avoid future problems. She’s been trying to find a balance between that brutal and ruthless pragmatism and her compassion, but she wealthy, in Piltover, and a council member. She’s out of touch and even a bit naive. She thinks that Piltover can have Hextech weapons and never use them so long as the Undercity doesn’t strike first. Sorry for all the words. I’ve just been thinking about Mel a lot. Again, love your work.
All good thoughts! To round out your points, you should call me out for not blaming vi/vander/etc for playing the game by necessity according to undercity rules even if it involves occasional sin of means (theft, etc), but then totally double standarding mel for it with her sins of means (corruption) 😅
@@schnee1 true, but I’ve been really focused on Mel for the past two weeks because I think that people extend her less good will than any other character because of the archetype she’s initially set up to be 😅 Edit: I also gave you a massive wall of text and wasn’t comfortable giving you more 😂
@@snakesnoteyes Agreed, I think a lot of Mel's "evil" motives is because she's purposefully presented as a specific archetype, one which she actually doesnt fit, and I think a lot of her motivations are skewed because the writers intend on presenting her in a nefarious manner. Ep 8 is there as almost an "ah ha" moment for us to realize that she wasnt quite as self centered as we thought she was, simply that she was just ahead of the game and smarter than most. So as much as the manipulation was there, it wasn't there for nefarious reasons.
@@lockekappa500 I really love her introduction because I think that it really does start to give us who she is. She buys a kid’s toy for another council member and gives it to him as a puzzle for the brightest minds. It’s obviously manipulative, but it demonstrates both an awareness of other people for who they think they are and who they really are. She bought him a puzzle game for his birthday because she knows that’s something he would like, and she tells him it’s for smart people because she knows he either thinks he’s smart or that he knows other people don’t. It’s immediately contrasted with another councilor (the same councilor who he enjoys contraband alcohol with) not knowing his birthday or his food allergies. She never uses that to embarrass or extort him. She just uses the good will that buys her get him on her side. She has learned how to weaponize her compassion. But as soon as she meets someone who doesn’t (at the time) know how to wear a mask, her mask starts to come off.
I feel like Victor is more chaotic good because he is the one that really pushed Jayce to do good. But I can also understand why you'd put him in chaotic neutral.
The best label you can put on Jinx is 'tragic'. We cry for her because we, the audience, can see so much potential for good and healing and time we see it stolen from her. The end scene is so powerful because we sit watching and screaming 'No!' because we are watching and unable to stop the effects unfolding. We know how we got there, we know what hope there was, and we are powerless
I did a double-take and then laughed so hard when I realized that the "council member" on the far right (@18:42) is Wat Tambor - a character from Star Wars
I don't think Viktor's altruism is a facade at all because he is like constantly talking about helping the undercity denizens in the show. "Scientists seek ways to make the world a better place" "What about our pledge to improve lives, for those in need? For the undercity" "We agreed hextech was to improve lives, not to take them" "We failed to do good" etc. his quandary (dying from terminal disease) is just understandibly getting in the way of that. If Viktor was in better shape I think he would be doing everything in his power to help people just like Jayce is (maybe Viktor could've done some tangible direct good instead of playing political puppetry) If they're gonna adapt his ingame lore right, Viktor will probably hop up the moral axis ironically enough. ...Some lore spoilers here but like the guy does end up programming Blitzcrank, a service robot in Zaun who is basically a symbol of unfettered altruism. A portion of Zaunites consider him some kind of messiah, and half of that is not even flattery because his work with body replacements in the undercity is drastically improving people's lives
Hey Schnee, I just wanna say that I really enjoyed all of your arcane videos after having watched most of them. Your style and depth of breaking down the show is fantastic. Thank you for the amazing content
The Matilda one was spot on. But fr tho. If you look at some of the details, Caitlyn comes off as a lot more innocent that she looks. Cassandra is unphased by Caitlin bringing in "another stray" as if she does it multiple times. As soon as Vi leaves the scene she gets very comfortable in the brothel (which at first she seemed uncomfortable in). Then if I remember correctly, one of the writers said something along the lines of "Caitlyn has a revolving door for women" or smth like that.
I’ve never commented on ur videos even though I watched every single analysis and explanation of arcane that you did but I love it. You made such original and interesting subjects/ideas and questions about arcane. Ty for this and i hope u the best !
I'd say Singed is Lawful Evil personally... he created Shimmer, he supplies weapons to Noxus... granted that's not been shown yet but its true and I think it'll come out in season2, his regard for life of any kind is negligent at best for this I'd say he's Lawful Evil. I think your spot on with Jinx though, she's literally chaos with legs, her regard for life is non existent. Her body count is 23 and that's just the ones we've seen.
I love Jinx............however her bodycount is absolutely stunning. She has killed more people in the show than everyone else combined by a fucking landslide. (on screen) I wish I would have had a count of it, regardless it's a crazy bodycount. Even removing the the accidental kills. Also fascinating that as powerful as shimmer is, Jinx is even more effective. Edit: Now can you help me? I'm absolutely obsessed with the show. I have no idea how many times I have watched it but it has to be beyond 30. (I'm not including the 3x I watched it with TB Skyen's (League of Legends lore youtuber) audio real time reaction nor all the reaction channels I have also watched) It broke something inside me. I now know the acting ability to cry on queue as I only have to think about scenes. I care more about two animated chicks getting their first kiss than I care about me not having a relationship. I don't know a single person in my actual life that has watched the show. I have pushed it on everyone knowing full well they were most likely going to feel the pain in the hopes that they would love what I love. (no takers yet) I am a 43 year old straight dude. Nothing in my life has fucked me up like Arcane. I have never loved a show more than Arcane. (It was a long battle in my mind to try and sandbag that claim, I can't) (I "enjoyed" Firefly more......I did not love it more) The fucking Vi/Cait interactions are literally the most realistic "love at first sight" (sort of) crap I have ever witnessed in any form of media. (I almost feel like it's wrong for me to feel that relationship as I do) In all truth, I know that I don't even want help. Arcane is a fucking Masterpiece! I also did not fully understand what "obsession" actually is apparently. My love for this show is only surpassed by my love for my dogs, my penis, my vision, my mental capability and my life. (those are not in order) (Pretty sure the dogs mean more to me than the rest though) (part of this post is very serious, some is just drunk typing, most of it I believe to be absolutely factual insofar as I can determine) P.S. Fascinatingly, even with the amount of times I have watched the show, I still find nuggets of things I should have noticed in the show via the comments section. It's fascinating. (Vi wouldn't have noticed the flare had she not run into a dude and become confrontational, Vi still has nagging pain in her shoulder from being crushed in episode 3 etc.)
What makes you obsessed with this show? Why are you guys completely on the Jinx train even though she's a whacko? Why are people so critical of Mel, even though, she's just finessing a structure that existed before she was born? Heimedinger is more responsible for Zaun's chaos than the council because he created Piltover 300 years ago, how could he let the inequality get so large?
I don’t think it’s wrong for you to like Vi and Cait’s relationship it’s a wonderfully built up relationship and their is nothing bad about you liking it and you are being respectful about it. As for really liking Arcane I can relate I’m still reading so many CaitVi fics several months later and checking out art for them, and as someone who tends to get hyperfixated I know that it’s probably not end anytime soon and it remains pretty up there for me along with the Owl House and Amphibia for me at the moment.
I love all of your videos, feeding my hyperfixation on Arcane so much. I love the way you articulate all your thoughts on each character and plot point ♥️
18:08 I don't know if this would have a great impact on his morals, but he does knock out Silco so he doesn't have to see Jinx's suffering, showing his empathetic side. Instead of shutting Viktor out, he empathizes with a lonely child and forms a connection. Though it does seem that he has little care for animals and others, he shows strong empathy for those he relates to.
Mel - would bump her up to Lawful Neutral because she has no overt desire to cause harm to the others or bring people down, she has a respect for life and a desire to a force of good in the world, even if that desire is half buried in her inferiority complex. It's not enough for me to ever call her Evil. Vi - Neutral Good - though she did primarily WANT to place Powder above all other concerns, we actually see her go against that multiple time when Jinx pushed things too far. She turned away at the bridge to let Ekko deal with Powder in a moment of prioritizing Caitlyn, even being aware that Ekko may not go easy on Jinx in the fight. And at the Tea Party, is unable to even think about killing Caitlyn when Jinx asks her to. She wants to prioritize Powder, but has an underlying moral code that she cannot bring herself to compromise. Marcus - more than argue the alignment I just want to address his character a bit here. Marcus is a man who made himself a bed of nails and knew he had to lie in it. I think the reason he grabs Vi at the end of Act 1 was about balancing the scales in his mind. He realized he'd made a terrible mistake when Grayson was killed, so he decided to try and do one good deed in saving Vi from Silco. That's why he kept it a secret, because in his mind protecting her (even if it was by putting her in jail) this was his penance for Grayson's death. Everything he does dealing with Silco after that was about him trying desperately to preform damage control. Silco ran the underground, so the only way to keep his venom from spreading to Piltover was to work with him. He tried to do what Grayson did, but was unfortunately dealing with a much less mild man with much more sinister goals, so it only ended up working against him until his soul was run ragged. If I could change one thing in Arcane it would be to create an opportunity for Marcus and Vi to meet again to address these reasons of why he did the things he did, because as things were left, his true motivations were never really explored, and I firmly believe that he is a more complex and nuanced character than most of the fandom gives him credit for. Jinx - Chaos. Just Chaos, no moral alignment to be found. I can't in good conscience call her Evil because she's a broken human being, and I have a rule against judging broken people in this way. They are not despicable, they are pitiable. I can't in good conscience call her Good either though because she IS a source of death and destruction wherever she goes and shows no signs of remorse, even subconsciously. Neutral however still feels wrong for her because she honestly does very little out of selfishness. Wanting to be useful and loved is largely universal for human beings, and basically any action she takes throughout the story has the undercurrent of "I only wanted to help", which is not a Neutral trait. Grayson - Lawful Good - You claim we don't see signs of a protector archetype in her like we do Vander, but she literally tells Caitlyn that to her, knowing how to use a gun means being able to protect people and be of use to the city. She valued life and was willing to put the needs of others before her own. Good through and through.
At 10:52 in the video, you mentioned what an odd decision it was for Marcus to "drug-nap" Vi and keep her a secret. I have a theory, and will stick with it until I learn otherwise, because it fits his character (in actions), if not his own personal philosophy: wanting to gain control of the trenches (undercity) with a booted heel; Marcus was spoiling for a rekindled war. My theory is, he arrested Vi, because it was the best way to close the investigation into the stolen hextech, which let to Greyson's death, and might, in time, have led to uncomfortable questions about his own involvement. Also, he jumpstarted his promotions (possibly aided after the Vi's arrest by Silco, since Silco would want Marcus to be in as lofty a position as he could attain). Reason I think this: Macrus was still an enforcer. He wasn't found out to be a traitor, and the hextech issue was resolved to the council's satisfaction. They were pretty adamant somebody needed to be arrested. Marcus either knew or suspected Vi was the one Vander was protecting, the person who was beating on that door when Greyson was summoned, meaning Vi wanted to turn herself in. Why not... let her. Also, Silco thought Vi was dead. He knew Vi hadn't died in the explosion or Powder wouldn't have reacted the way she did. So, Marcus probably told Silco he'd kilt Vi. Accidents happen in prison; people disappear - it happens all the time. Not like anyone would care what happened to Vi after she was imprisoned (except Silco, maybe). And paperwork gets lost. Some time in the first year of Vi's incarceration, Marcus made her disappear, and told Silco Vi was dead, that he'd either arranged for Vi to get got, or that he'd done the deed himself -- Silco would stop considering Vi a loose thread, and maybe Marcus alleviates a small portion of the guilt he felt over what happened, specifically his culpability in Greyson's death. He also gets to take over Greyson's position as the promotion train keeps on chugging. In that scenario, Marcus did both. Arrested VI to make topsiders feel safe and closed the book on the theft, and "killed" Vi by making her disappear from the system, then telling Silco she was dead. Whether or not Marcus used Vi's imprisonment for his own gain (which I absolutely think he did, since the council was in such a tizzy to bring back the happy happy joy joy to citizens of Piltover, and Marcus' war with the undercity never happened, so his involvement with Silco -- aka Greyson's death -- was never discovered), he was the reason Silco believed Vi was dead.
> Jinx. Me: "Nice. This is an easy one." > Chaotic Evil. Me: "Totally agree. With you so far." > Hero. Me: "Uhm... the fuck?" She's a protagonist, not a hero. Hell, she's not even an anti-hero. She's a full blown villain.
She will most likely be a hero for some people of the undercity, as she attacked the heart of the city which is suppressing them. Of course she is no hero, but some people in the series could be viewing her as such.
@@cinderspirit4229 what people, she blow things up and doesn't talk to anyone about revolution. She no plan or idea of taking over from Silco. Next season, she probably going to run because no one would seriously the Joker into a war, a bad war too. 😂
@@cinderspirit4229 a think she's like Harley Quinn , whose been flirting between anti-hero and villain sides. But she's more like the Joker, Jinx is a chaos demon. She wants what she want and kill gun down or blow up anything around her. Nobody listens to Ekko despite him dealing with her regularly through the time skip.
Nah, she is sorta the hero by definition. The “evil forces” of the show would be the literal oppression from the top side. This means anyone opposing them would be by in large “good” in the story format. This would make Jinx the character furthest from Piltover the city of oppression the hero. Remember that a hero has nothing to do with how you feel, do, or even try to do. It’s solely based on who you’re opposing, and Jinx is opposing the big bad of their world
But Jinx does have an allegiance - to Vi. That's the only person she would never hurt, no matter what, her killing Silco proves it, one of the writers confirmed it too.
@@thaissabbatino1409 When you’re referring to E7, are you specifically referring to when Jinx hallucinates that Caitlyn is laughing at her and starts shooting?
The League Lore of Noxus you referred to is accurate. Plus Noxus has a leader, but not the one Ambessa is referring to. Plus in League's Lore, Noxus has also learned how to use Blood Magic and revived one of their strongest Warriors named Sion.
I think I agree with where you end up pegging Silco, but not with your logic that he should be there because he grew complacent and didn’t actually fight for the “just cause”. On the contrary we see him still down in the lower levels and still working towards his goals, as compared to the more corrupt and self-centered chem-barons who he demonstrated to be not even breathing the same air. In episode 4 he seemed to be trying to smuggle shimmer and says that the screw up “set them back weeks” and we also see that he’s trying to make gains over Piltover through weaponizing the stolen hextech and through further developing and refining shimmer (like with the roided up thugs in shimmer suits that were defending his factory). What makes Silco evil is how he’s willing to go through such extreme means (sacrificing ANYTHING but Jinx for the cause) like threatening innocent children (or trying to have them killed in the case of Vander’s kids), exploiting child labor, coercing Deckard into taking shimmer, etc. I think Singed is 100% chaotic evil and just a generic sort of “mad scientist” in the league of legends lore where he kidnaps and experiments on unwilling people, but here in Arcane I think they may be developing him into something more interesting and grey. It’s hard to evaluate him because you have to read between the lines and can interpret his motives in many different ways, but I don’t know if he’s truly evil. He does do some nice things, notably to Viktor, taking him in as an apprentice when he was just a lonely child and then offering the shimmer free of charge to help him with his project to save himself. Was he just self-motivated and transactional in his dealings even then? I suspect that Singed is basically just a psychopath, capable of empathy (like in his decision to sedate Silco so he didn’t see Jinx get operated on) and being nice, but ultimately willing to set that aside for his research when it benefits him. He seems to treat friends/colleagues very differently from patients/test subjects, for instance. Without more information on his motives it’s hard to peg him down but I could see him potentially being fleshed out into true neutral or chaotic neutral, maybe even neutral evil.
I think the reason Silco stalled the revolution and instead built up his drug empire is Jinx. Vander wanted to maintain the status quo because he saw how people are hurt/killed by conflict. Silco eventually becomes more like Vander. He realizes that he can’t risk Jinx (he is initially furious when she goes out to steal the hextech gemstone). In act 3, he basically confirms that Jinx is more important to him than an independent Zaun. His arc concludes with him being a more ruthless and cynical variant of Vander. He maintains the status quo to protect those who are important to him.
I agree deep down that Silco still wants to fight for the cause, but like Vander, he inadvertantly has made choices that have stalled his ability to further that cause, because of his daughter. "Is there anything so undoing as a daughter." Essentially he's simply never been able to push Zaun in the direction it needed to get its independence at the pace it should have, because Jinx has been his soft spot.
The big problem with these categorisations is that they require a contextual definition of how someone is lawful or chaotic or good or evil. now I think Lawful and Chaotic are easier to agree on - order vs chaos. Im comfortable the vast majority of people will agree. But good vs evil is much more difficult. Can someone with no moral framework be good or evil? Their actions will, generally, tend to be evil. So evil outcomes. But they are neitral in those actions. And sometimes those actions can be good. The conflict in definition between Aims, Actions and Understanding actually make this category pretty much meaningless. For example, Jinx has no moral compass. She doesn't do things which are evil (from her perspective). She is Chaotic Neutral. Or her Aim is to achieve Silco's goal, the Nation of Zaun, freedom from oppression (or at least Piltover oppression) for the people. She is Chaotic Good. Or her Actions result in death destruction, harm and pain. She is Chaotic Evil. Also, Vi is Neutral good. She isnt just acting for Powder or her relationship with Powder, she has a deep moral conviction that Inequality is wrong and should be opposed. She cares for everyone (lots of hugs for all). She does fault both Powder and Jinx.
Agree a lot of it is subjective and PoV-based That's why people argue about it I think in general we need more detail than simply Good Neutral Evil. like give a sliding scale of 0 to 10 on each category. Mel is like a 1 on Evil, Ambessa is more like a 7. For example
Oh 100%. It's only after watching a video like this that I realize how insufficient this model is for labelling and grouping characters, especially complex and developing ones. It's a fun tool to bring out every now and again, but like many others (the Political Compass and Myers-Briggs come to mind) it's best used to ask rather than only answer. That said, I quite like it when I'm assessing a character's *actions*, where those can then accumulate into a character judgement (that might fluctuate with time). Yeah, for me Vi is closer to True Good. Good does not mean Nice! Vi actively tries to protect + save those she cares for: the crew, Vander, Jinx, Caitlyn, Zaun, then Piltover too. Obviously she has few qualms about stealing or giving out beatdowns to those who might not entirely have deserved it, and her eagerness to escalate conflict when Jayce was looking for peace could have led to a darker path. Jinx? If I were the 'dungeon-master' I would have changed her alignment 10+ times, then permanent markered 'Chaotic Chaotic Evil Evil' on her character sheet. Powder sets out to do good by deciding to help Vander, then commits (unintentional-ish) chaotic evil by detonates the monkey bomb, then cooperates with Silco under the pretence of 'righteous' work, then blows up an airship, then blows up a building, then blows up a bridge, then goes to blow up the council who had just signed a peace treaty. Blatant, irredeemably evil actions from Chaos personified, BUT her character can hardly be summarized by just a label.
I 100% agree with your list BUT I can see season 2 (when ever it comes out) shifting this list to a dagree. I have really enjoyed your videos and love that they not only make me think A LOT about the characters and how we relate to them BUT ALSO sheds light on thing I normaly don't think about and presents other veiw points. You do a very good job about bringing as many details to the tabel and not being bias as much as posible. You stay as nutrual and alow me (the veiwer) to form my own opinion while still sharing yours. I do wish you dove deeper in this video and I don't mind 30+ minute videos but not everyone does and you cover that by having other videos to cover other details/topics that can be further alaborated on. Again, LOVE your videos and this one got the gears turning for me. I look forward to getting lost in your videos.
Just one point I thought that may or may not elevate Viktor up a to a good character. While he pushes a lot and takes extreme risks for personal gains, at the end of the series he does request Jayce (his best friend) to destroy the hexcore for him as he couldn't do it himself. This is someone who knows they have a problem and has now requested for help which is an extremely good moral quality even if it took something tragic to push him to this decision.
Also that decision at that point pretty much means giving up both his chance of legacy and his chance of survival. So ultimately when faced with the reality of his work actually harming others he puts other people's life and safety above all of his ambitions. That makes him chaotic good I think, especially when we give Jayce the benefit of the doubt although he made some decisions that harmed and killed other people. I think those priorities are also reflected in the scene where Mel suggests building weapons. If he just wanted to have a legacy, building powerful weapons that decide a war would actually be a great and easy way to be remembered, but he's utterly horrified at the suggestion. So while he is very ambitious, he wants his work to help others and would rather have no legacy at all than leaving something behind that causes harm. Also I think he's mostly willing to take high risks because he thinks he's mostly just putting himself at risk. When he breakes into Heimerdinger's lab with Jayce, he's not really putting Jayce at risk because Jayce was about to commit suicide and doesn't really have anything to lose at that point. And when he does his experiment with the hexcore that gets Sky killed he actually tried to make sure he was alone while doing it. We can see from the running scene before that it's night, so probably no one else is at the lab and he has locked the door. Sky is only able to get in because she has a key. And she is only there at that time because she wanted to have a private chat with Viktor and knows from prior conversations that he spends his nights at the lab.
//Looks up from behind his DM screen// Interesting video, as always, Schnee! My 2¢ on D&D Alignment is that Lawful characters are primarily motivated in relation to organized society, whereas Chaotic characters are primarily motivated by their self-interest. Good and Evil are subjective. Much like the Star Wars Universe's steady state, I can argue that Piltover's utopian but oppressive topside is actually evil while the rebellious undercity is good. Obviously, any categorization will result in a pointless oversimplification. Alignment in D&D is antiquated and awful, simply because people's motivations are much more subjective and complex than the Alignment system allows. Fortunately, WotC is continuing to phase out Alignment.... but that's really a discussion for some other video.
Wow can't remember the last time I actually saw a cents symbol...! what a treat for the eyes lol Sounds like you're sorta over the good/evil labels, but any thoughts on the arcane characters as far as lawful/chaotic? Sounds like you'd have a lot of my neutrals in chaotic. What would be neutral for you?
@@schnee1 You already know I admire your content. Great questions! I welcome the conversation, but my brief thoughts are unspooling into multiple paragraphs. You deserve better. I'll think on this and get back to you.
@@ISpiers I don’t play dnd, nor do I know much about alignment- But can I just say that the way you two talk about your differences, or at least your opinions, is fantastic. That’s it, have a good day.
i think marcus protecting vi was (at least for him) a way of atoning for what he'd allowed to happen in dealing with silco. if she stays in zaun she'll be killed, and he doesnt want that on his conscience
I think the reason Marcus arrests Vi without telling anyone is Silco. Silco wants Vis dead, but killing her isnt what Grayson would have done so Marcus does what he thinks is right and arrests Vi.
So I saw your little comment about Marcus’s decision to save Vi and I wanted to speculate a bit on why he did it. I think he knows that he caused the whole situation. We get a tiny look at his guilt when he throws down the money when vander’s being dragged away. As someone who wants to be good, he probably felt that he was obligated to help her, and not watch as two kids die indirectly due to his actions. Obviously prison isn’t actually a good and healthy place for vi, so it’s pretty clear that he did it mainly for selfish reasons.
The Council "needed its pound of flesh", too. By bringing back the perpetrator, Marcus could improve his own standing and throw off suspicions about himself in the wake of Grayson's death.
@@Taliesin_ This would make sense if there were any records of her crimes, but she's a ghost. So it's safe to say he just felt bad and hid her there from Silco.
@@lockekappa500 There's no reason he can't have it both ways. He tells the council the bomber's been apprehended & jailed. He gets his promotion. Vi goes into Stillwater, where the new sheriff sees to it all records of her are scrapped.
(Love this. XP) Anyway, a note on Marcus Taking Vi: I've done a lot of thinking about how that all played out in between the timeskip and came up with a pretty solid headcanon I'm sticking to. *This is my theory on how it all played out:* Marcus sees the explosion, follows it. He sees Vi, who he recognizes by her description from Silco when they made the first deal, presumably. He saves her, and moves her to a secure location while he figures out what to do next. Silco confronts him, presumably threatens his baby daughter for the first time, and then offers Marcus to be to Silco, what Grayson was to Vander. Either Silco asks Marcus to be on the lookout for Vi, or Marcus lets slip he has her. He tells Marcus to kill her and Marcus pretends to comply before locking her up in Stillwater, quietly. (Which, he thinks is something he did for Vi, instead of to her. Marcus is such a complicated mess). What he told the Council about all the dead bodies is a bit of a mystery, but he prolly describes it as a monster, or something, that killed the enforcers and the suspects while they were making the arrest. Maybe Silco tells him to say it was because of shimmer, this "new drug" developed in the Undercity, as Silco's whole thing is he wants to terrify the Topsiders. Marcus is seen as a hero, being the sole survivor, and perhaps with a little bit of help from Silco in the shadows, he is on his road to being the new Sherif in Grayson's stead. This is all half speculation, but I think most of it fits pretty well. Arcane is the kind of show that avoids exposition dumps, but there are clues here and there regarding what happened. :P
love the theory!! it wouldnt make sense for what happened to have been marcus's plan from the outset, and i think you're also totally right that arcane likes to leave things for us to figure out and didnt feel the need to spoonfeed it to us
I went through this mentally before watching and had some different answers, but, your reasoning is so good I had to pretty much agree across the board.
I don’t think, that Mel is evil, at least at the end of the show. She was born and raised in quite cruel family, but started to think more about making something good for people because of Jayce. That’s is why she voted for the peace with Zaun and symbolically left her Noxus past by taking off her ring
If we give Mel a "snapshot alignment score" of like "final episode Mel" then I agree But we're saying "entire season Mel" so she is evil. Albeit I'd say "low/weak" Evil but still
I just need some advice from people on the internet, so by the definition of Chacotic Neutral, Jinx would be exactly that and not Chaotic Evil, or am I just lost?
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Chuck’s alignment is spot-on. And Matilda is a force to be reckoned with.
Also Hiemerdingers dog. Underrated villains.
Thieram. Hi-his name is Thieram
@@dipdop9734 nice try chuck
This whole comment and it's section is underrated - a masterpiece, I'd say!
You still dont see it?
Heim's pug is behind everything
I have to place Vi as Chaotic Good. I think it's a mistake to say she only cares about Powder. She cares about the Lanes and taking down Silco arguably even more and the two things often conflict. Actually she's a lot like Vander except she always thinks with her fists, hence Chaotic.
"I'm going to find my sister and erase whatever fucked up delusions you put in her head BUT FIRST I'm going to bring your bullshit empire down around you" sums it up pretty well. She's also willing to turn herself in at the beginning which can only be for the sake of the Lanes, certainly not Powder.
I also think it really makes sense that the sisters should be opposites on one axis.
She even give up Jinx to the council when she meet them. Caitlyn wasn't willing to talk about Jinx unless Vi was fine with it.
I actually agree with this, the only confusion is that VI is so stupid that its hard to imagine her being able to conceptualize what is necessary for good, but I guess thats the problem that results it in being chaotic
@@mumhustler
I think Vi is very smart, as well as courageous. She’s always been a leader that was looked up to by all the kids around her, and that didn’t change when she got older. Vander saw Vi as someone who had great potential and mentored her - not just because of her good heart, but because she was capable. She got out of prison for a very short time and upon meeting Silco, with a single punch, took down quite a lot of shimmer production. She convinced Jayce to team up with her and take on Silcos empire. Vi is a very resourceful character. She’s smart as well as bold.
Also, she was willing to probably spend her whole life in a jail cell, when offering herself as the “pound of flesh”, not only to protect Powder, but everyone else in the undercity. I’d say this goes beyond intelligence and into the realm of sacrifice and love.
"Matilda, NEUTRAL EVIL, Zaun's most notorious ladykiller."
Amazing
I also really think Mel should be Lawful Neutral. She votes for peace at the end and is shown to have a merciful mindset in her flashback; she never does anything that's actively harmful to anyone. She sponsors hextech but technology is always inherently neutral. It's only the way people choose to use it that can be good or bad. She's ok with corruption but she's just playing the game she finds herself in. The status quo keeps top on top and the poor suffering, but that's the way it's always been and she's not trying to change that, i.e. she's neutral towards it. I also think it's a misinterpretation to say only cares about superficial things. Her comment about being the poorest Madarda reveals not how much she cares about money but how much she cares about proving herself to her family.
But if we put Jinx into the evil category, because she is doing all the things for herself and doesn't care much about others, how would Mel be neutral just because her actions in the council don't directly kill people, but indirectly lots of people in the undercity have to suffer and die because of the things the council does? To me the council with the exception of Heimer and Jayce have been clearly evil in the series, they all act 100% selfish, they are greedy, they are corrupt, they would never accept that their leadership was wrong and all of them should be exchanged. They are the same thing as the chem barons, just the richest guys leading in a way so they stay the richest. That's the thing I like about the rocket, it is a punishment for their corrupt deeds, which they would have never received otherwise. For Jinx we have atleast seen that she is feeling tremendous guilt when it comes to killing her family. That she is not feeling guilty for killing Enforcers, which are the guys who took her original parents and terrorized her city for a long time, or the firelights which are the aggresors against her all of the time, is atleast understandable. And killing during a mental breakdown is a terrible accident, I would even argue she played that one down to ease her mind, because she felt guilty for executing the firelight girl. I would still more likely put Jinx into the evil category than the neutral category, but Mel is the same or worse to me. Mel is feeling bad because her mother has killed the princess, but she would have been fine with turning the princess into a slave somewhere else, feeling like a saviour because she spared her life. That still vibes evil to me.
@@cinderspirit4229 one Mel could not let her go free even if she wanted to and two Mel has always been looking towards the betterment of Piltover and she was willing to leave behind zaun because that was the cost. However when given a better option for zaun she supported Jayce first in giving up her power. While all of her choice may not have been directly for the betterment of Piltover she did have to play the game of politics and because of this she was able to make big changes by holding back on other changes. For instance she was able to add a seat to the council and without her support at the end the council would not have agreed to let go of zaun. Jayce was able to show her the cost of leaving zaun behind and after that she chose to help make a difference for them.
I think Mel is generally a good person. Compassion and empathy is what got her exiled. Her mom, who has no problem with cruelty and horrible acts saw those as a weakness. Mel can break and follow the rules equally as long as her goals are met but she is not heartless like her mom. I would peg her as NG though her upbringing tries to drag her to true neutral (more like her mom who is bound to nothing but her cause).
Mel is definitely not Evil in any sense of the word. She's a person who has been powerless most of her life, subjected to the will of others and who has forged her own existence in a foreign land where she was exiled to due to her 'soft heart'. Yes, she is highly manipulative - she is after all a 'fox among the wolves' which is the life she chose from the examples she was given early in her life. She learned to survive and use her wiles to get ahead instead of resorting to violence. She chooses mercy and negotiation over bloodshed. Yes, she has a wicked wit and is not afraid to make other the butt of a private joke but she has not been shown to do anything out of malice or pure self-interest. Keep in mind she is one of if not THE youngest person on the council. AND her position is not from one of the Houses that have traditionally held a seat on the council. She had to make her way onto the council using her wits. You can say she didn't help Zaun, nor did any of the other council members, but you cannot blame the corruption of the council on a person who's been in Piltover for 20 years or less wherein we know for a fact that the corruption of the council and neglect of the undercity has been going on for generations - Silco, Vander and Viktor have had to live through it.
It's easy to push the blame on a character that is obviously manipulative, but there's a difference between being manipulative and being malicious. Mel has not shown any malice behind her actions. She will bend others to her will as a means of getting ahead and surviving, yes, but that is the environment she has been raised in. Nurture, not Nature. Her nature, as was shown in the flashback, is one who is compassionate and will seek compromise. She pleads for the princess's life and tries to find any reason to spare her even though her mother had already made the decision to end the girl's life. The trauma of the princess's death still haunts her to this day. A callous person - or one designated as Evil - would not hold on to something like that. Mel does. She also does not push for war, she pushed for Jayce and Viktor to make weapons for Piltover to defend themselves against what was perceived as a threat. People in her city had been attacked and killed. She wants to defend her home, so the kneejerk reaction of someone born in a militaristic regime is going to be to arm themselves - but you see her change her mind very quickly when she realizes its her Noxus upbringing peeking out. She realizes that violence only begets more violence and speaks out to find a different way. She goes COUNTER to Jayce when he's talking about taking the fight to them - about war. Again, not Evil, not motivated by self-interest. I do believe that Mel is often given a very bad wrap and people don't recognize the nuance of her character or the motivations behind her actions. I wholeheartedly disagree that she should be considered Lawful Evil. Lawful, sure, but Lawful Neutral or....dare I even say it, Lawful Good.
@@bowlsem7 I agree, except not Lawful? Playing the politics game is what she's all about. She's gotta be Lawful, right?
I propose Ren (aka Marcus Jr) is actually Neutral Good:
1) She helped her father with the burial of the fallen enforcers, honoring the heroes of Piltover. Certainly an act more selfless than selfish.
2) She received Silco on her father's behalf when he was busy working AND entertained the guests by offering up her toys.
Truly the unsung hero of the show. 😇
Also, the concept of a Chaotic Evil hero sounds very interesting indeed.
They did that in Emperor's New Groove. Though it's not the same because Kuzco changed by the end of the movie.
It could be noted that she could have just done those things to try and get recognition from Marcus rather than actually applying good intentions to her acts, so it all could have been completely selfish. Y'know what they say, children are the best manipulators.
Joaquin Phoenix's version of the Joker maybe?
Jinx isn't just chaotic. She IS chaos.
Chaos! Chaos! *_*Jevil's Theme Plays*_*
@@Victorsandergamer don't compare a legend to a peasant.
@@cosneanumatei5117 I'm utterly sorry, monsieur/madam, excuse my foolishness
@@Victorsandergamer no worries. One might forget about jevil being a legend. And thus, I shall exuse you.
She is the one who knocks
Jinx being chaotic evil was pretty straight forward for me (even though we, the audience, have rooted for her rescue/redemption). But I can see Marcus' daughter and Heimerdinger's dog joining forces and taking over the city. :-(
season 2 is gonna be a wild ride... :-(
I feel she isn't exactly chaotic evil though. She doesn't go out of her way to cause harm. If she had a button that said get a $1,000,000 or a button that said get $1,000,000 but kill a bunch of people as well. Jinx would press the first one whereas a chaotic evil person, such as the joker would 100% choose the second. She is extremely apathetic to human life but she doesn't go out of her way to cause suffering. So overall I think she is closer to Chaotic Neutral than chaotic evil.
Granted i know alignment charts are just a way to organize things and doesn't really work for complex characters. But with the general framework of how it is she's closer to CN than CE
@@Garnzlok She kills dozens of people on a whim, you really can't get more textbook CE than that. Chaotic alignment is all about being self-serving, her not going out of her way to kill people(which clearly isn't true anyways) would just shift her to NE, not CN.
@@Limrick1029 If i recall correctly her main moments of killing were during her fights and the bombs she used for a distraction to get the completed crystal correct? So she used them to get to what she wanted which would not be on a whim. She isn't super pragmatic or goal oriented and is too unpredictable to be NE. So far she hasn't killed anyone just cause there has been a reason for it. Be it they were enemies attacking her or things she was charged to protect, good use for a distraction, or have wronged her in her mind. the final scene of her shooting the hextech powered rocket at the council is her in her mind following silco's will and to strike back against those who she could view as the source of all her problems.
This is very different from for example the joker who is often cited as THE CE character. He kills just cause, he kills for killings sake, he kills for destruction. So far Jinx hasn't been like that, she may become like that in the second season but is not the case as of this moment.
Heimerdinger's Poro will be the next golden doggo of Piltover.
the alignments at the end absolutely destroyed me. i wasn't aware there were so many tyrants hiding in plain sight... i hope they touch on it in season 2.
Oh yes, especially the one about Heimerdingers pet.
Marcus Jr: "Allies with Silco to build a toy house for selfish intentions". Just great.
LOL
No I don''t think Marcus "arrested" Vi. In his mind, he "saved" her. It was his repentance for his role in Greyson's death. He felt guilty for one person's death so to make up for it, he saved another person. 1) He stopped Vi from getting killed while trying to save Powder (which she would have almost certainly died if she tried to protect Powder in that moment) 2) He hid her in a prison where she would be "safe" from Silco for the next decade.---That moment when he grabbed Vi had nothing to do with him doing his job
Interesting point. I've always assumed Marcus brought Vi back as the scapegoat for the council. But it's probably a bit of both.
Also, he went to the risk of lying to Silco about her. As Silco said to Ren: "Daddy here assured me, that she left with him."
While he didn't neccessarily lie to protect her, it certainly did have that effect.
@@Redymare I don't believe the council was even aware of Vi's arrest, so I doubt that was the intention behind Marcus's actions. Plus, if I remember correctly, when Caitlyn went to see Vi in prison, I believe she mentioned that there is no record of Vi in the prison itself and that the reason for her arrest was never recorded. I'd have to go back and rewatch to catch the exact wording, but it was in episode 5. That would further prove that Marcus was not arresting Vi to appease the council
@@Redymare Nah, I think they give us his motives when he grabs Vi. "You can't go out there, they'll kill you." This is him "saving her." This show doesnt make someone say something unless it has IMMENSE and deliberate means. So his act of saving Vi is just that. No ill intentions at all. He's just too much of a pussy to allow her to be free of prison because he knows it will get him in trouble.
@@Redymare He didn't lie to Silco, Marcus told him Vi was arrested. He just never expected an upper class citizen with the trust of the most influential man in the city to accidentally investigate Vi through two degrees of coincidence (the botched shipment and Vi beating up exactly the one lead).
@@SeventhSolar from the way their conversations are phrased, and Silco's exclamation of "(back) From the dead!?" upon finding out that Vi is back, implies that Marcus assured him that he personally saw to Vi being killed.
I would add to your observations about Milo - to me, he seems to have some sort of inferiority complex. He has a specialised skill that he isn't really good at (picking locks. it doesn't work out till ep 3). In the street fight, he was the only one that didn't eventually win by himself and needed Vi's help. And in the fight club whete they stay, you can actually see Clogger's name holds the last two places. So after Powder, he is the weakest in the group. We even have scene where she outdoes him, so if it wasn't for her emotional problems and inexperience, perhaps Powder would've been more skilled.
However, we see his condescending attitude in his body language as well as his words. And he brags around "Saying we have a nice haul?" and "We worked too hard for this". When he complains about Powder he does so to Vi, not only because they are sisters, but also since she is the leader.
So, to me, he clearly wants to be higher in the non-existant hierchy in the group and puts Powder down for that reason.
imo, I do think that his but simply just one of those kids who loves to complain all the time though. And maybe there is truth in what his saying as jinx being inexperienced does place additional chance of getting trouble and higher possibility of being caught in every mission they get to.
excellent analysis! vi basically calls him out for projecting just like youre saying now that i think of it
@@schnee1 I'll even take this a bit further that, I feel like Milo is a representation of everyone who is they themselves not useful, or not being impactful or talented, and instead pointing out the same in Powder and Jinx to cope. There's so many representations of this. Sevika, the chem barons, all point out that Jinx is the cause of all these problems, but in actuality, what are they doing to further this cause? Sevika's group got tied up by the Firelights, and were about to lose all of the Shimmer without Jinx's interruption. And sure Jinx shoots a few people, but she still gets more shit done than them. She kills a couple firelights, and ultimately probably salvaged something. Yet in the end Sevika turns it on Jinx, as if things would have been alright without her. If we think about it, Jinx is constantly getting shit done, while others are taking L's left and right. She gets the hex gem and gives Zaun the advantage, and eventually is why they have a bargaining chip to even get the peace that Silco fought so hard for.
I always find it interesting that perhaps Powder isn't quite as "jinxed" as even she's represented in this show, simply that she has this knack for people blaming her because she goes a bit overboard, but in the end, things were gonna go badly anyway. That's why I actually have this theory that in Ep 3 they were never going to get away from Silco. They had plenty of men left, everyone's injurted, that doors probably coming any second. Yet Powder get's blamed because wrong place, wrong time, and people want to project and deflect their own inadequacies.
@@lockekappa500 Err yes I agree with all of this
Jinx is a like the unstoppable flow of time and space
Or the spark that sets off the powderkeg (no pun intended)
Its not the fault of the spark - who left open a full powedkeg there????
And besides, Piltover and Zaun looked like they wanted it out.
Chemtech vs Hectech. Its funny no one points out the symbolism of the two technologies.
They are 2 different philosophic / axiomatic systems - external / technological vs the internal / biological
No one seems to ever talk about this analysis angle.
In particular w/ Silco and Singed / Zaun being the invested in Chemtech, while Jayce/Council being in Hextech.
@@mumhustler "Jinx is the unstoppable flow of time and space." I love it, perfectly said. Shit goes wrong, life sucks. Trauma and loss happens, and sometimes there's not always someone to blame. Jinx is the embodiment of that blame, she shoulders it all, and gets blamed for all of the wrong that happens in this world. Think of how much wrong is being done in Ep 3, how many people are indirectly to blame for Vander/Mylo and Claggors death. Jayce, Heimer, the entire council, Sevika, Vi, Silco.
And yet it all gets thrown on the shoulders of a little 11 year old girl who just wanted to do good and prove herself. That's Jinx's super power. Truly heartbreaking.
“Howl” - my 3rd favorite Ghibli movie 😂👌 Your videos are spot on! Can’t get enough Arcane analysis content!
I laughed so much
The mix between legitimate minor character analysis and the just flat out jokes in the end had me ded 😭💀
i snorted so hard at that one, just... good one
Was looking to see who else caught that
I think Vi does genuinely wants to see Zaun's suffering end or at least lessen. When she talks to the council, she tells them that the bomb is Jinx's when Caitlyn hesitates, which is the morally correct thing to do, but it puts her sister in danger (Jayce wants to have Jinx put in prison for attacking Piltover when talking with Silco and he only knows it was Jinx because Vi told the council about the bomb). And she's urging them to take Silco down not because he has Powder, but because shimmer hurts the people of Zaun. When she takes direct action, she first takes out the shimmer production factory, and then goes to Sevika and try and get Powder.
In addition, she is willing to give up herself and be arrested even as a kid, because it would keep her family and city safe despite incurring suffering for herself. She also goes back for Caitlyn on the bridge when she's in danger and even leaves her sister on the bridge because Caitlyn is hurt and needs her. She seems to place the same value on being the protector as Vander did and is willing to sacrifice a lot, including herself. She's also focused on Powder partially because of guilt, but also trying to protect her and be a good sister, even when Jinx has her gun in Vi's face. She's trying to do the right thing even with Powder. To me, that's enough to earn her neutral good.
Also, I think the reason Marcus arrests Vi is to keep her safe from Silco because he feels guilty for getting Vander, Benzo, and Grayson killed, which is why he kept it a secret, but why he threw her in Stillwater indefinitely without checking up on her still doesn't make sense to me because at that point, why not just let her die instead of letting her rot in prison her whole life?
Yeah Vi was the only one I couldn't really agree with. I feel like she has to be Good because she always has selfless intentions (even if her desire to save Powder and the Lanes in general by taking down Silco often conflict) and Chaotic because she always reacts with her fists instead of thinking things through.
For Marcus - remember that while he wants to *think* he's a good person, he's not. It's likely that he informed the council that the perpetrator of the bombing was arrested & jailed (and he truly believes Vi did the deed, remember he saw Vander choosing to take the fall for her). However, as a potential witness to Silco talking to him about 'their deal' after Greyson's murder, Marcus would be putting himself at risk if Vi was freed and able to talk to others. And Marcus, at his core, is a coward. So he locks her up, throws away the key, tell himself it's for her own good, and puts the uncomfortable truth of his own evil behind him. Out of sight, out of mind.
@@Taliesin_ Agreed, except I'm not sure how likely it is he informed the council of the arrest. If he had, they certainly would have wanted to make it public to put people's minds at ease and what reason could he have offered for why he couldn't? Perhaps he WANTED to do all that and only realized how trapped he was after the fact.
@@tothesun Maybe he told them that it was a child? The Council cares a lot about appearances, after all. Locking up children is bad press. Far better to assure people that a dangerous, faceless criminal has been locked away for everyone's safety. But yeah, this is something that likely could have played out either way. In the end, Marcus got his promotion, and the Council stopped sending enforcers into Zaun.
I've always thought it's probably not a coincidence that Marcus's daughter has a passing resemblance to Vi--red hair, blue eyes, freckles. His daughter seems the right age to have been a baby in Act 1, so I've always assumed that he also couldn't kill Vi because she reminded him of his daughter. Definitely not a selfless reason, but I just love all the little meaningful background details in the show.
And I would also place Vi closer to Chaotic or Neutral Good, especially toward the end of the season. I think she may have been more of a true neutral when she first got out of prison, but interacting with Caitlyn and Ekko over those 5 days did seem to have an impact on her and help her see the bigger picture. I'm a little scared for her next season, though. Vander telling her not lose her good heart no matter how the world tries to break her sounds like a statement that's meant to be tested to its limits, so I think she, and we, are in for a rough ride...
I think the Viktor and the explosive scene has an even deeper meaning than just showing off his coolness. In this slight moment he thinks about just not cutting the wire, just letting it happen and setting an end to his own suffering.
That’s what I thought, too-I definitely got the impression he was contemplating suicide.
He saw what Hextech could very well become and was extremely close to letting all of their research die with him and Jayce if it meant it wouldn’t be weaponized was my interpretation.
or to end himself along with Jayce and Mel so it could all stop
Imo it's also about his opinion on war. He could've chosen to let the bomb explode and kill himself, Jayce, and their research, but he didn't. Because "There is always a choice."
I also saw this as a another metaphor when viewed in context with the conversation they were having: The argument gets more heated causing Viktor to slip up and activate the grenade. The situation has gone from shouting to both parties are now in danger. Viktor keeps a cool head and safely disarms the bomb. This emphasizes his point that they are never "out of options" when dealing with Zaun, that it IS entirely up to them wether or not this conflict gets more violent.
I absolutely disagree with Mel being "evil." Lawful neutral is where she belongs. She will do some manipulative and corrupt things for personal gain, but she does not have any malevolent intent towards others and does try to govern in a peaceful and compassionate fashion unlike, say, her mother. Mel is NOT evil.
I agree
I completely agree
💯
I feel you. But being fully aware of evil acts, encouraging them, and participating in them is evil. Even if the person themselves don’t want to be evil. I want her to be neutral too and I feel like she comes so close. But she just allows to much to happen and some of it for her own gain. That decision at the end really could have put her in that category because it would be her reaching out and giving a little instead of just being power hungry. But I don’t believe that will be the case.
@@acid634 I don't know how aware she is tbh. And she definitely has good intentions and really wants the best for Piltover and Zaun. Mel believes in mercy and dislikes violence etc which is why she votes for Zauns independence in the end
First time I ever wanted a Chaotic Evil character to blow everything up. Jinx is a DM's worst nightmare, and she's perfect
i would literally listen to you talking about arcane for hours in a row. Thank you so much for these videos
thanks for taking the time to comment! :D glad you enjoy!
Good thing this channel literally has just that!
I was thinking caothic good for Vi, she has the best intentions cares about everyone she comes into contact with but if also backfires, for eksempel the Tea party where she tried to help Jinx but was in fact triggering her PTSD.
when Jayce kills the child she wants to push forward the operation killing other children just to reach her goal to destory shimmer/kill Silco, this is utter disregard for human life, she cannot be by any definition good
The other point against her goodness is how she treats Caitlyn vs. how she treats Jayce. She clearly cares about Caitlyn. So what does she do every time she expects fighting? Pushes her away or ditches her. Who does she recruit to go fighting with her? Jayce. She barely would've felt anything for him if he'd been hurt or killed during their raid, and she's ready to fight him for what *she* wants.
@@fixpontt she did it with good intentions though. she looked upset at the dead kid, but immediately took action to destroy the shimmer, which, by the way, is an action that would actually help so many more lives. no more children running these factories, no more orphans and deaths to shimmer, no more wealth for silco, no more of the harm that silco causes-this is a VERY good act. she’s action-oriented 100% of the time, but her actions are almost always justified. her intentions may SEEM selfish because she’s doing it to help powder and satisfy her past, but she’s also doing it to prevent anyone from ever being in the same position her and powder once were in. her actions seem impulsive, but are 100% aligned with her intents, which is to do good for the future of the story. chaotic good, i think, or perhaps neutral good, since she’s strict on her intentions, and that’s essentially the code she lives and acts by.
@@sophie6744 I think at her core she's Neutral Good, but Powder causes her to go against her Good ways and stray into the neutral aspects of things. One could say that even the concept of keeping Jinx alive when Caitlyn is against her goes against any "good" she could have. Jinx is a force that needs to be stopped, and Vi isn't willing to do whats right to stop her.
@@fixpontt you severy misunderstood why she was okay with casualties like that when fighting against Silco. It's because kids are dying constantly because of him. She'd rather take matters in her own hands and end the suffering even if it means people will be caught in the crossfire. That kid that died is still Silco's doing. He shouldn't have employed them in a factory.
didn't expect Marcus' daughter and Matilda at the end :D
great video as usual!
"Marcus Jr. Lawful Evil"
That is the most beautiful thing I've seen all day.
Once I read a reddit post about Singed being the ultimate bro, because he saved Jinx when she was injured, also he helped Viktor when he was in doubt about what to do; he even notices that Viktor is not doing great because of his illness even though is the first time they meet in a long time.
I think he is chaotic neutral.
You just gotta get him interested in the scientific value. You could probabably get him to invent a machine that prints puppies or build the first ps5 of Runeterra if you bring it up to him
Singed after he is done doing what he does in League lore is the most Chaotic Evil you may ever see. Besides, I think he only helps because he knows something is in it for him. Also, is seems like he invented Shimmer, but doesn’t seem to make money off of it, so he just kond of invented a monster drug because he could.
Singed is a really fascinating character and I dont know whether or not I agree with his placement on a morality chart...since he is basically 100% amoral. He couldnt care less whether or not he should do something, he just wants to see if he can. The extent to which I would say he is selfishly motivated is that he just wants to be able to continue pushing the boundaries of science, consequences be damned, without getting arrested or killed.
I guess my beef with placing him as chaotic evil is that I've always taken that to be impulsive and selfish, and neither of those are characteristics I'd attribute to Singed. Actually, I understand most Chaotic alignments to be self serving (maybe I'm wrong here). He cant be placed anywhere with the word Lawful attached to it, considering he has zero respect for any existing structure if the possibility to escape it exists. That leaves the neutrals....if I had to place (Arcane) Singed it would either be True Neutral or Neutral Evil. The consequences of his actions on the world make me want to put him in Neutral Evil, but his motivations aren't inherently ethical, one way or the other...the dude just seeks potential and has the stomach to see it realized no matter what. He isnt doing it to better or burn the world, he is trying to find the absolute limits and push past them. I almost cant believe I'm saying this, knowing what he does in League Lore, but I almost think that if we take his motivations and personal ethics separate from the impact he has in the story, I would put him at True Neutral. He doesnt do what he does with the intent of doing harm, but he is willing to accept the cost of doing harm to fulfill his experiments. Ironically, he is probably the best spokesperson in the show for the City of Progress, if we are to take into account not only the benefits of progress but the potential costs.
@@JimnyThePython what a flex ''just invented buff crack cause I can''
@@The_SinisterMister well, according to League's lore he invented the chemical warfare in that universe so that just can't be neutral, he consciously ended a war by his own means dooming thousands in the process, chaotic evil fits perfectly
7:44
I dont think you understood the scene with jinx's
explosive. Its not like he doesn't know what to do, but keeps cool under pressure and solves it out. He knows EXACTLY what to do, but just for a moment, he thinks about not pulling that knife and blowing them both up
Holy hell l think your right
Placing Jayce and Vander on the good axis feels right, but I think it's interesting that they still bear a large responsibility for the suffering of Zaun. Vander for upholding a status quo where people die from pollution and malnourishment, Jayce for overreacting and sending in the enforcers when he panics and wants to protect the "security" of Piltover.
It's all about intent. Good intents can still lead to bad outcomes, but doesn't diminish the goodness in these people's hearts. Whether it is "best" choice (how ever you may define it) or not is a different question.
People get punished for being good in Arcane, similarly to IRL
@@Requiemreverie They also get punished for being evil. Like IRL.
@@Pallyrulez NOPE. It's about favourites. Mel should be Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good but we all know how the general audience feels about her. they despise her.
@@williampearson6299 look while I agree she is good at heart. I think we can both agree that her actions in this season were questionable and lacking in ethical thinking. It’s not until she has more vulnerable moments with a character like Jayce who influences her and brings out the inate.
The side characters... OH the side characters, you're killing me schnee xD
At first it seemed genuine "aha Sky, nice analysis, it really does happen often irl too", Cait's parents "also true", poro "oh.. hehe, that's funny"
but then came Marcus' daughter, and it killed me, then Matilda resurrected me just to kill me again, great sense of humor and comedic timing
I would put Vi in the neutral good or chaotic good category.
She doesn't only care about Vi but does care about Caitlyn as well, at the end way more than for Jinx.
She did lead the small group of kids and tried her best to care for them and took the lead after her parents died.
She did take up responsibility for the heist by trying to turn herself in. After the attempt of Vander turning himself in goes South like a rocket, she collects her crew for a rescue mission.
So far she punched people who she thought of as bad, like Sevika and the other Silco goon. Yet she didn't kill either despite having had the option for Sevika.
She does care for Zaun, which is the reason why Caitlyn successfully gets her to talk to the council.
She does go straight to Jayce when that didn't work to go for a violent solution of the drug trade problem. [Plus would have continued if Jayce didn't chicken out]
She doesn't act lawfully, but she isn't truly neutral about stuff happening around her.
This is a nice explanation:)
Yeah I agree
I slightly disagree with singed, the apathy on his part is there, but when it came time to help Viktor for no real benefit to him he did, he sedates silco when he was treating jinx, he seems to have a code of honor to people he respects, I think that leans him towards neutral.
Great video.
I hear that, singed is pretty hard to place
Singed's personal motivation is scientific progress though. So I think he helps Viktor because he's interested in his hexcore project (he even verbally expresses that interest) and wants him to continue working on it and is probably curious what will happen if Viktor uses it in combination with shimmer. So while it maybe doesn't benefit him directly I think his motivation is still more on the selfish side, more doing it out of curiosity than sympathy.
Tbf Mels character maybe a good example of the D&D saying ‘alignment is NOT a straightjacket!’
I think you did as good of a job as someone can do with this difficult question.
The aliment chart was meant to help organizing Pen and paper campaigns. It can not completely describe complex characters.
So in the end this whole thing is just a fun exercise to think more about these characters.
I would perhaps call Mel more delusional than evil. She is quite like Jayce but even more misguided.
I just can't buy her "I just wanted to protect Piltover." thing. With her it is never just "just". She is more chaotic than lawfully I say. As she seems to see herself to be above the law. She did break rules by helping Jayce and Victor.
I would put Mel in Caotic Neutral.
Interesting take on Mel, I hear it. Silco could also fit into the delusional misguided category, different characters reacting to the same type of delusion about their efforts
@@schnee1 100% A lot of Silco and Mel's motivations come from delusions as to why their motives are "just." Silco has been pushed to SUCH an extreme (almost murdered by his own brother, and essentially having a near death experience) that he feels pushing others to that extreme is considered a good thing. He wants to kill Powder and push Jinx further into her chaotic ways because that is what made him strong. He's pushing Zaun, "drowning" it in Shimmer because he attributes that process as instilling strength.
So much of his manipulation he actually believes is necessary, even if it is toxic. Same with Mel, I think she actually thinks this is all to "protect Piltover from people like you." As she said to her mother. But she never really goes about any of her means in a "just" way. Mel and Silco are absolutely an "ends justify" the means type of person. Not just that, but actually that SPECIFIC means are necessary in order to achieve a specific end. A trial by fire of sorts.
I think the reason Mel flip flops so much is because she's open to other philosophies. Jayce continuously challenges her outlook
@@schnee1 Mel is not chaotic at all. She is the most composed character in Arcane. She is Lawful Neutral. She plays the political game that has been established long before her and when an opportunity arises to help advance Piltover, she takes it. That's why she helped - even though it was breaking the rules, her investment in Jayce garnered great returns with HexTech.
The only one I really disagree with is Jayce. I don't see him as chaotic. Sure, he was doing illegal research, but he was also careful about it, to the point where before the explosion nobody knew about it. Also, a chaotic character would've revealed the Atlas Gauntlet and Hexclaw, not caring about Heimer's warnings. And yes, although he does play along with Mel's corruption, he also attempts to crack down on the illegal smuggling from Zaun. Also, he had no intention of attacking the Shimmer factory before Vi nudged him, since the council was against it. Considering all that, for me he's Neutral Good
Hmm...thinking about it now...I might also change Viktor to Chaotic Good. Sure, he has personal motives but who doesn't? Many times he points out that he's pushing to advance Hextech in order to help people who need it now, instead of waiting like Heimer says
Ok ok last one. Yes, Mel is corrupt and yes, she pushed to make Hextech weapons, but she doesn't want war. She wants stability. So, like the other council members, I'd make her Lawful Neutral
I agree with all three of these takes 👍🏻
I'd also say that singed isn't chaotic either, it seems his only argument for that being the case is he is acting outside of the law(in the place where they don't really enforce it so is it really law) but other than that we don't see anything pointing to him being chaotic, the only time it looks like he is, is when jinx is on the operating table, and she is shown time and time again to have hallucinations of things that aren't there, he seems to me to have the outline of a plan the entire time, to me he seems to be a sociopathic character, able to have emotional bonds (his kid, and victor) while have a complete disregard for others, like after he is done working on jinx he doesn't even register that silco might want some peace of mind and simply keeps working cause why would it matter if he knows or not, just another person, but who knows, we certainly don't and he can only take guesses, only the show can say for certain
I would agree any character who teeters on lawful and chaos is automatically neutral, Jayce does value order but he is not beholden to it and will break the law and orderly construct to what he thinks is right. Neutral good.
I vouch Viktor for chaotic good as well, at least until we see his transformation...
A good example is when Jayce goes to Viktor telling him that they may have to weaponize hextech to be ready for a possible war, and Viktor is beyond mad declaring to Jayce that "we are scientists, not soldiers", "we are to help lives, not take them" somewhere along those lines. He is deathly ill and when you are at that point you have nothing to lose, so that kind of explains his "chaotic" actions he may have displayed
did not expect you to upload an alignment video lol, very interesting to watch though. i remain excited for whatever you upload
(also marcus jr. was hilarious neutral evil)
thanks! my process for deciding what video to make is basically "idea gets into head, cannot stop thinking about it all week..." 😅
@@schnee1 I love when I get that feeling. Inspiration doesn't always come so easily so when it does it's very exciting.
I like the reason you gave for doing this video. I appreciate that you so often remind us that this is a discussion and your not trying to tell us what to think.
@@schnee1 From the very first character, Mel Medarda, you're entirely off base. Mel didn't say that she wanted something "revolutionary" for her own benefit, she said she "wanted something revolutionary", "something that would put PILTOVER on the map". She's already the richest person in the city, regardless of her complex standing with her family, she's an exile and wants nothing to do with them and having more money than herself is redundant.
Councilor Medarda is in it for making the place where she resides "great", not herself. Aggrandizement isn't even in her character, but actually making a difference is. And throughout the entire course of the show, even in the 8 YEARS between when she first assisted Jayce and Viktor to their hex-tech breakthrough, until the present day of the remainder of the story, making Piltover a success has been her ONLY mission. Achievement, in Mel's view, IS the reward. Growth, prosperity and innovation for her city.
Mel didn't "turn a blind eye" to the low ball, palm greasing taking place in Piltover, because she isn't naive to how politics works. But she showed Jayce how to work within that established framework in order to retain control and gain autonomy over his experiments.
Just think for a second. If Mel was "all about herself" as YOU claim, then she would want the recognition for having aided Jayce and Viktor to their discovery before the time jump. She'd want to see HER FACE on all of those dirigibles and banners throughout the city. She'd scarcely mention wanting to make Piltover a better place. But instead, both before and after the jump, her only concern is freeing up Jayce so that he can better control his science, which creates innovations, which help bolster Piltover.
So, she didn't do a "180". She never advocated for weapons UNTIL she brokered the idea of self-defense weaponry AFTER Jinx's grenades were discovered. And she NEVER advocated for war. This should have been abundantly clear by the time her mother showed up, who ended up being diametrically opposed to her political ideology even as a child. She told her mother that war was not Piltover's first and last recourse, like it was Noxus'. She said she sponsored hex-tech weaponry to help defend the city from people like Ambessa and Silco.
But somehow you think that after those arguments and angry confessions to her warmongering mother, that she THEN did a 180?!
You read the character completely wrong, friend. Or do you think Mel keeps a wall sized painting of the blood and necklace of the young regent her mother executed, above her bed, because that's what she one day aspires to be? The same as the woman who ostensibly exiled her and thinks mercy is a weakness?
Think again. Mel is not the self-interested schemer that so many viewers mistake her to be. She's a cunning politician who happened to be the ONLY ONE doing her civic duty for Piltover, on that council.
For the record, hex-gate technology alone must have done WONDERS for their jobs economy. You say Mel was selfish and didn't help anyone but the elites? Did the elites construct hex-towers all over Runeterra? Or did Piltover's working class?
In episode 4 when Heimerdinger is telling Jayce about Stanwick Padidly, did you see all of the scaffoldings surrounding the construction of all those new buildings in Piltover??
This should go without saying, but when your economy gets a boost like Piltover's did through those hex-gates, PEOPLE GET PUT TO WORK!!!
There would be all sorts of new jobs created in both the public AND private sector, including new cottage industries. Everything from infrastructure, maintenance of the hex-gate towers, increased security and law enforcement, new airship industries, expanded municipalities, tourism, international commerce, travel, civic construction, increased attendance at the Piltover Academy, (which means a hiring boost in instructors as well as an increase in tuition from new students), new pilots and aspects of international profits rolling in from wherever Piltover's businesses related to these industries sprang up in other cities and countries. All that AND the outside investments that Mel was trying to help Jayce secure, because... guess what? All of that research don't pay for itself!
Job creation on THAT level is precisely what a councilor such as Medarda is put in place to do by having a seat on that council. But you're saying all she did was help herself and a few elites?? You're not watching the same show that I am, man. Or you're just choosing to see it how you want to, sans reality. Because on the show that I saw, when Jayce suggested that they shut down ALL hex-tech related industries until they found out who detonated those bombs, the first things that were mentioned was how many thousands of people were going to lose their income if that happened.
I don't know how you could miss all of this obvious stuff, but it makes your video lose credibility when you pretend that what's happening doesn't involve anything that I've written, when it does, absolutely.
"Lawful evil"? LMAO!
Also, at what point did Mel look like she was seeking Ambessa's "approval"? Because when it came to her and her mother, all I saw was diametric opposition, both in thought, action and ideology, from her youth until now. She never once seemed remotely like she wanted her mother to be "proud" of her, as evidenced by the first words out of her mouth when Ambessa docked in Piltover and the look of disdain on Mel's face that she was even there.
It's like you're making up your own story, but completely ignoring the one being presented to you. (smh)
@@jackspratt7264 lmao
Grayson: "for me knowing how to handle this weapon means being able to protect people, to be of service to the city"
"Don't you think we've pushed them hard enough?" She resists the council in trying to oppress Zaun, So even though she was the Sheriff I don't think she had any control at all over trying to improve the situation for Zaun. I have to put her in lawful good because none of the evil enforcer actions we see in the show seem to be in her control at all. The has the clear goal of trying to protect people.
It's hard to say if Grayson is the norm of what an Enforcer should be, or if she's the outlier in this scenario. I'd like to think enforcers by default should be good, but evidence shows us otherwise.
@@lockekappa500 they should be, but that doesn't mean that they are. A lot of cops in USA have a lot less morals and care for others for someone who's job is primarily to protect other people. Same goes for the enforcers.
@@mathies3598 Oh I agree with you there, and not to support anti-cop rhetoric, but cops and those who work in the law enforcement industry seem to be almost a product of their environment. It's hard to blame someone for becoming hardened in a profession that almost demands it.
Which is why people like Grayson are so commendable in their defiance of the norms.
@@lockekappa500 yeah, but there's a big difference being hardened and downright cruel and brutal... for me that's always just too far. I'm not anti-cop at all, i've seen many instances of police working just fine in my country. But I understand why a lot of Americans are after all the videos I see online. Be like Grayson, don't be like Marcus.
@@lockekappa500 There’s a difference between being hardened and being unnecessarily cruel to a group of people based on factors they can’t control like where they can live and the color of their skin and how much money they make. Arcane does a great job at showing how easily corruptible the police force is. It shows that for some (like Caitlyn), it’s just “a few bad apples”. But for those that enforcers can get away with abusing (like Vi), the force itself is corrupted. Those that people in power can get away with abusing are always abused even if others can’t see it. Arcane writes that message really, so I recommend rewatching and thinking about whether you’re one of the people that the police can get away with abusing.
Wow it feels illegal to be this early lmao
But in all seriousness, this is a great analysis. I think they are all accurate and I really appreciate the honorable mentions for side/background characters! Keep up the good work😁👍
I just want to say that your videos are entertaining as hell, I usually avoid long videos but I stayed here throughout. You honestly deserve more views and subs
Also- You did Marcus Jr soo dirty lmaoo
truly appreciate it :D
Can I just say how much I appreciate you jumping straight into the discussion at the start of every video? No intro, no filler, straight to the point. I love it
I think you're missing one key line sevika says, "(I was not tempted) for a worm like him, but he wont be the last." Which in one line I think clearly submits her loyalty only to the cause. It's just that between Silco and the Cp2077 NPC Silco is still the best for the cause. She is open to Silco about her loyalty for him weakening.
Great video! However, after watching the part about Viktor just one big detail that could change the placement of Viktor. Viktor can not physically destroy the Hexcore himself. He has put his own matter into it, and the Hexcore actually speaks to Viktor, preventing him from doing what he knows is right. This is why when Jayce came and interrupted his suicide attempt, Viktor pleads for Jayce to destroy the Hexcore, but Jayce refuses. Even though Viktor is unable to ever destroy the Hexcore, because once again it has power over him, Viktor tries to destroy it the only other way he could via his partner.
OMG another cool detail I just noticed! If you haven't realized yet, the color of characters eyes are VERY important in Arcane, Gray eye=character isn't themselves/reach potential/etc. Viktors eyes, when being a scientist, inventor, and a man fighting time, his eyes are brown. However, when trying to smash the Hexcore you may realize in the few moments he nearly does smash the hexcore his pupils are grey, but each second he reconsiders and hesitates his eyes are brown. What I think this means is it is out of character or out of his character development (the path that leads to his ingame character) to smash the hexcore, as if he had there simply wouldn't be a Viktor in league.
I think it's so cool that we can see two or more characters that would seem so vastly different, come under the same alignment.
You show a real understanding for the nuances of the archetypes, and it was fun listening to the struggle and logic behind the labels you chose. Great video!
I just binged your entire arcane playlist. Loved your insights and humor and your voice is super easy to listen to! Really great content thanks for your work.
I actually dislike the lawful vs chaotic label a lot for these charts. This is because the chart is attempting to display a spectrum where one end is the opposite of another, but fails to do so. Law is not the opposite of chaos, the opposite of chaos is stability.
For instance let’s discuss Singed. I think singed is the least chaotic character in the series, because as you said he values scientific progress over all else and proves that time and time again. Singed is very consistent in his values and decisions, antithetical to being chaotic. However he can’t be put as lawful because his actions go against societal norms, and he is too extreme to be neutral making him very difficult to place on this chart.
Yeah the classic "9 box" alignment is too simplistic for sure
I don't think Marcus arrested Vi to make topsiders feel safe. I think he arrested VI to make himself feel better. I think he thought himself a knight in shining armor by "protecting" this girl from Silco. I think he would even feel more justified in his decision in the aftermath when Silco was looking to make sure Vi was dead. I think it was a move to make himself feel like a hero and it was completly self absorbed.
You can make that argument for any character who does a "good" action (they just wanted to make themselves feel more noble). It's impossible to disprove.... so I don't like assuming it! I think this is a point in favor of Marcus, he tried to do a good(ish) deed by saving Vi, relatively saving her anyway
I love all your analysis videos so much, you explain things so logically and well. Keep up the good work and I look forward to more great content from you!!
Glad to see a fellow intellect who understands Chuck's relevance to the deeper themes of arcane xD
Lawful means to operate within the confines of the word- if not the spirit- of the law of the land, or some form of personal code of ethics / conduct.
Neutral means neither significantly caring for, nor having any true opposition to laws, rules, or personal codes, but serving one's own desires, be they benevolent, selfish, or something else.
Chaotic means disregarding laws, rules, and codes in pursuit of whatever is of one's interest in the moment, being unpredictable.
I can't see Mel as Lawful Evil when she argued for sparing the girl her mother killed. She was exiled because her mother saw her compassion as weakness.
In the same way that Powder's trauma changed her, to me it seems like Mel's abandonment also changed her. She went from being a level headed compassionate young diplomat-in-training to a resentment-driven money/status obsessed politician. I think you're right that that part of her is good, and it does come back in the end, but with the way these categories force you boil down the character into an essential good/evil label, the evil is outweighing the good for me
@@schnee1 for me she still is Lawfull Neutral. She isn't good, she is... apathic. She maybe manipulates the council, but the council isn't that good either,and she helped Jayce, but is still greedy... I guess lawful neutral fits her good
I really like your take on this. I would have gone a completely different route on a lot of these, but I think the majority of yours are much better then the places I would put them. And it makes for a very engaging and surprising video. And poro (the fluffy goat dog thing) is definitely lawful evil. Everyone knows if you have a scar and a different coloured eye, you are immediately a villain.
wow nice catch on the scar, practically a bond villain right there...!
Love your work. I disagree with your characterization of Mel. I agree that she is initially partly motivated by self interest and greed- not more so than any other council member (Heimerdinger aside). She’s absolutely better at reading people and playing the game than the rest of the council, but that doesn’t mean she has worse or motives. However I think that even in the beginning she also really wants to put good into the world. I think that she’s as awed by the potential of magic to change the world as Jayce and Viktor and their willingness to put their entire futures on the line gives her confidence that they can handle it. I feel like the only way to see her vote for giving Zaun its independence as a last minute alignment shift if if you believe that she was trying manipulate Jayce at every turn including telling him he should be with Viktor when he was in the hospital. I think the most manipulative thing she did to Jayce was put him on the council. The scene at the concert was her giving him the lay of the land, and yes it was definitely self serving, but I think she really does believe in Hextech as something that can make the world better which is why she’s wants it (and Jayce) to succeed and flourish. We see in the glimpse of her childhood that she values human life, but between being exiled for her compassion and Piltover‘s culture of masks she’s used to hiding herself. She believes in Hextech and Jayce so much that she starts to take her mask off for him before she even has reason to think that he really cares for her beyond what she was able to do for him. I think she meant it when she said she wanted to give and not just take. She also is in direct opposition to her mother’s war mongering in Piltover from the start. Mel suggests Hextech weapons because she was raised by a woman who she saw murder a defenseless girl to avoid future problems. She’s been trying to find a balance between that brutal and ruthless pragmatism and her compassion, but she wealthy, in Piltover, and a council member. She’s out of touch and even a bit naive. She thinks that Piltover can have Hextech weapons and never use them so long as the Undercity doesn’t strike first. Sorry for all the words. I’ve just been thinking about Mel a lot. Again, love your work.
All good thoughts! To round out your points, you should call me out for not blaming vi/vander/etc for playing the game by necessity according to undercity rules even if it involves occasional sin of means (theft, etc), but then totally double standarding mel for it with her sins of means (corruption) 😅
@@schnee1 true, but I’ve been really focused on Mel for the past two weeks because I think that people extend her less good will than any other character because of the archetype she’s initially set up to be 😅
Edit: I also gave you a massive wall of text and wasn’t comfortable giving you more 😂
@@snakesnoteyes Agreed, I think a lot of Mel's "evil" motives is because she's purposefully presented as a specific archetype, one which she actually doesnt fit, and I think a lot of her motivations are skewed because the writers intend on presenting her in a nefarious manner. Ep 8 is there as almost an "ah ha" moment for us to realize that she wasnt quite as self centered as we thought she was, simply that she was just ahead of the game and smarter than most. So as much as the manipulation was there, it wasn't there for nefarious reasons.
@@lockekappa500 I really love her introduction because I think that it really does start to give us who she is. She buys a kid’s toy for another council member and gives it to him as a puzzle for the brightest minds. It’s obviously manipulative, but it demonstrates both an awareness of other people for who they think they are and who they really are. She bought him a puzzle game for his birthday because she knows that’s something he would like, and she tells him it’s for smart people because she knows he either thinks he’s smart or that he knows other people don’t. It’s immediately contrasted with another councilor (the same councilor who he enjoys contraband alcohol with) not knowing his birthday or his food allergies. She never uses that to embarrass or extort him. She just uses the good will that buys her get him on her side. She has learned how to weaponize her compassion. But as soon as she meets someone who doesn’t (at the time) know how to wear a mask, her mask starts to come off.
I feel like Victor is more chaotic good because he is the one that really pushed Jayce to do good. But I can also understand why you'd put him in chaotic neutral.
The best label you can put on Jinx is 'tragic'.
We cry for her because we, the audience, can see so much potential for good and healing and time we see it stolen from her. The end scene is so powerful because we sit watching and screaming 'No!' because we are watching and unable to stop the effects unfolding.
We know how we got there, we know what hope there was, and we are powerless
Fitting the definition of greek tragedy to a tee. Masterclass writing right here
I did a double-take and then laughed so hard when I realized that the "council member" on the far right (@18:42) is Wat Tambor - a character from Star Wars
I like how the "Chaotic" part was not even a question for Jinx. She's Chaotic Chaotic
I don't think Viktor's altruism is a facade at all because he is like constantly talking about helping the undercity denizens in the show.
"Scientists seek ways to make the world a better place"
"What about our pledge to improve lives, for those in need? For the undercity"
"We agreed hextech was to improve lives, not to take them"
"We failed to do good"
etc. his quandary (dying from terminal disease) is just understandibly getting in the way of that. If Viktor was in better shape I think he would be doing everything in his power to help people just like Jayce is (maybe Viktor could've done some tangible direct good instead of playing political puppetry)
If they're gonna adapt his ingame lore right, Viktor will probably hop up the moral axis ironically enough.
...Some lore spoilers here but like the guy does end up programming Blitzcrank, a service robot in Zaun who is basically a symbol of unfettered altruism. A portion of Zaunites consider him some kind of messiah, and half of that is not even flattery because his work with body replacements in the undercity is drastically improving people's lives
If he wanted to leave a mark in history he could be making weapons, but instead his focus for better of mankind. Thats definitly a good person.
Hey Schnee, I just wanna say that I really enjoyed all of your arcane videos after having watched most of them. Your style and depth of breaking down the show is fantastic. Thank you for the amazing content
Your videos help better understand how to create a compelling character by analyzing them, Keep it up!
The Matilda one was spot on. But fr tho. If you look at some of the details, Caitlyn comes off as a lot more innocent that she looks. Cassandra is unphased by Caitlin bringing in "another stray" as if she does it multiple times. As soon as Vi leaves the scene she gets very comfortable in the brothel (which at first she seemed uncomfortable in). Then if I remember correctly, one of the writers said something along the lines of "Caitlyn has a revolving door for women" or smth like that.
jesus i love your videos you just jump straight into it and even if its long first 5-10 min arent INTRO
lol, glad this is appreciated 😅 i had a longer intro written and i was like "wait a min, ppl will just want me to start, wont they?"
I’ve never commented on ur videos even though I watched every single analysis and explanation of arcane that you did but I love it. You made such original and interesting subjects/ideas and questions about arcane. Ty for this and i hope u the best !
means a lot that you've watched every one! thx a lot!! :D
I'd say Singed is Lawful Evil personally... he created Shimmer, he supplies weapons to Noxus... granted that's not been shown yet but its true and I think it'll come out in season2, his regard for life of any kind is negligent at best for this I'd say he's Lawful Evil.
I think your spot on with Jinx though, she's literally chaos with legs, her regard for life is non existent. Her body count is 23 and that's just the ones we've seen.
I like thinking about characters and where they fit in an alignment chart, and I agree with all your calls
I love Jinx............however her bodycount is absolutely stunning. She has killed more people in the show than everyone else combined by a fucking landslide. (on screen) I wish I would have had a count of it, regardless it's a crazy bodycount. Even removing the the accidental kills. Also fascinating that as powerful as shimmer is, Jinx is even more effective.
Edit: Now can you help me? I'm absolutely obsessed with the show. I have no idea how many times I have watched it but it has to be beyond 30. (I'm not including the 3x I watched it with TB Skyen's (League of Legends lore youtuber) audio real time reaction nor all the reaction channels I have also watched) It broke something inside me. I now know the acting ability to cry on queue as I only have to think about scenes. I care more about two animated chicks getting their first kiss than I care about me not having a relationship. I don't know a single person in my actual life that has watched the show. I have pushed it on everyone knowing full well they were most likely going to feel the pain in the hopes that they would love what I love. (no takers yet)
I am a 43 year old straight dude. Nothing in my life has fucked me up like Arcane. I have never loved a show more than Arcane. (It was a long battle in my mind to try and sandbag that claim, I can't) (I "enjoyed" Firefly more......I did not love it more)
The fucking Vi/Cait interactions are literally the most realistic "love at first sight" (sort of) crap I have ever witnessed in any form of media. (I almost feel like it's wrong for me to feel that relationship as I do)
In all truth, I know that I don't even want help. Arcane is a fucking Masterpiece! I also did not fully understand what "obsession" actually is apparently. My love for this show is only surpassed by my love for my dogs, my penis, my vision, my mental capability and my life. (those are not in order) (Pretty sure the dogs mean more to me than the rest though)
(part of this post is very serious, some is just drunk typing, most of it I believe to be absolutely factual insofar as I can determine)
P.S. Fascinatingly, even with the amount of times I have watched the show, I still find nuggets of things I should have noticed in the show via the comments section. It's fascinating. (Vi wouldn't have noticed the flare had she not run into a dude and become confrontational, Vi still has nagging pain in her shoulder from being crushed in episode 3 etc.)
What makes you obsessed with this show? Why are you guys completely on the Jinx train even though she's a whacko? Why are people so critical of Mel, even though, she's just finessing a structure that existed before she was born? Heimedinger is more responsible for Zaun's chaos than the council because he created Piltover 300 years ago, how could he let the inequality get so large?
I don’t think it’s wrong for you to like Vi and Cait’s relationship it’s a wonderfully built up relationship and their is nothing bad about you liking it and you are being respectful about it.
As for really liking Arcane I can relate I’m still reading so many CaitVi fics several months later and checking out art for them, and as someone who tends to get hyperfixated I know that it’s probably not end anytime soon and it remains pretty up there for me along with the Owl House and Amphibia for me at the moment.
@@williampearson6299, I think you replied to the wrong comment
I love all of your videos, feeding my hyperfixation on Arcane so much. I love the way you articulate all your thoughts on each character and plot point ♥️
18:08 I don't know if this would have a great impact on his morals, but he does knock out Silco so he doesn't have to see Jinx's suffering, showing his empathetic side. Instead of shutting Viktor out, he empathizes with a lonely child and forms a connection. Though it does seem that he has little care for animals and others, he shows strong empathy for those he relates to.
I’m just glad people are still talking about arcane. Lol btw, yur vids are awesome. Great breakdowns and analysis 🙏
Mel - would bump her up to Lawful Neutral because she has no overt desire to cause harm to the others or bring people down, she has a respect for life and a desire to a force of good in the world, even if that desire is half buried in her inferiority complex. It's not enough for me to ever call her Evil.
Vi - Neutral Good - though she did primarily WANT to place Powder above all other concerns, we actually see her go against that multiple time when Jinx pushed things too far. She turned away at the bridge to let Ekko deal with Powder in a moment of prioritizing Caitlyn, even being aware that Ekko may not go easy on Jinx in the fight. And at the Tea Party, is unable to even think about killing Caitlyn when Jinx asks her to. She wants to prioritize Powder, but has an underlying moral code that she cannot bring herself to compromise.
Marcus - more than argue the alignment I just want to address his character a bit here. Marcus is a man who made himself a bed of nails and knew he had to lie in it. I think the reason he grabs Vi at the end of Act 1 was about balancing the scales in his mind. He realized he'd made a terrible mistake when Grayson was killed, so he decided to try and do one good deed in saving Vi from Silco. That's why he kept it a secret, because in his mind protecting her (even if it was by putting her in jail) this was his penance for Grayson's death. Everything he does dealing with Silco after that was about him trying desperately to preform damage control. Silco ran the underground, so the only way to keep his venom from spreading to Piltover was to work with him. He tried to do what Grayson did, but was unfortunately dealing with a much less mild man with much more sinister goals, so it only ended up working against him until his soul was run ragged. If I could change one thing in Arcane it would be to create an opportunity for Marcus and Vi to meet again to address these reasons of why he did the things he did, because as things were left, his true motivations were never really explored, and I firmly believe that he is a more complex and nuanced character than most of the fandom gives him credit for.
Jinx - Chaos. Just Chaos, no moral alignment to be found. I can't in good conscience call her Evil because she's a broken human being, and I have a rule against judging broken people in this way. They are not despicable, they are pitiable. I can't in good conscience call her Good either though because she IS a source of death and destruction wherever she goes and shows no signs of remorse, even subconsciously. Neutral however still feels wrong for her because she honestly does very little out of selfishness. Wanting to be useful and loved is largely universal for human beings, and basically any action she takes throughout the story has the undercurrent of "I only wanted to help", which is not a Neutral trait.
Grayson - Lawful Good - You claim we don't see signs of a protector archetype in her like we do Vander, but she literally tells Caitlyn that to her, knowing how to use a gun means being able to protect people and be of use to the city. She valued life and was willing to put the needs of others before her own. Good through and through.
This is tooo good, your accly to underrated
You had me dying on Marcus Jr. 🤣
this just can’t be unarguably decided for most characters because the characters are so dynamic.
At 10:52 in the video, you mentioned what an odd decision it was for Marcus to "drug-nap" Vi and keep her a secret. I have a theory, and will stick with it until I learn otherwise, because it fits his character (in actions), if not his own personal philosophy: wanting to gain control of the trenches (undercity) with a booted heel; Marcus was spoiling for a rekindled war. My theory is, he arrested Vi, because it was the best way to close the investigation into the stolen hextech, which let to Greyson's death, and might, in time, have led to uncomfortable questions about his own involvement. Also, he jumpstarted his promotions (possibly aided after the Vi's arrest by Silco, since Silco would want Marcus to be in as lofty a position as he could attain).
Reason I think this: Macrus was still an enforcer. He wasn't found out to be a traitor, and the hextech issue was resolved to the council's satisfaction. They were pretty adamant somebody needed to be arrested. Marcus either knew or suspected Vi was the one Vander was protecting, the person who was beating on that door when Greyson was summoned, meaning Vi wanted to turn herself in. Why not... let her.
Also, Silco thought Vi was dead. He knew Vi hadn't died in the explosion or Powder wouldn't have reacted the way she did. So, Marcus probably told Silco he'd kilt Vi. Accidents happen in prison; people disappear - it happens all the time. Not like anyone would care what happened to Vi after she was imprisoned (except Silco, maybe). And paperwork gets lost. Some time in the first year of Vi's incarceration, Marcus made her disappear, and told Silco Vi was dead, that he'd either arranged for Vi to get got, or that he'd done the deed himself -- Silco would stop considering Vi a loose thread, and maybe Marcus alleviates a small portion of the guilt he felt over what happened, specifically his culpability in Greyson's death. He also gets to take over Greyson's position as the promotion train keeps on chugging.
In that scenario, Marcus did both. Arrested VI to make topsiders feel safe and closed the book on the theft, and "killed" Vi by making her disappear from the system, then telling Silco she was dead. Whether or not Marcus used Vi's imprisonment for his own gain (which I absolutely think he did, since the council was in such a tizzy to bring back the happy happy joy joy to citizens of Piltover, and Marcus' war with the undercity never happened, so his involvement with Silco -- aka Greyson's death -- was never discovered), he was the reason Silco believed Vi was dead.
Love how all of the Chaotic column characters are geniuses.
> Jinx.
Me: "Nice. This is an easy one."
> Chaotic Evil.
Me: "Totally agree. With you so far."
> Hero.
Me: "Uhm... the fuck?"
She's a protagonist, not a hero. Hell, she's not even an anti-hero.
She's a full blown villain.
She will most likely be a hero for some people of the undercity, as she attacked the heart of the city which is suppressing them. Of course she is no hero, but some people in the series could be viewing her as such.
@@cinderspirit4229 what people, she blow things up and doesn't talk to anyone about revolution. She no plan or idea of taking over from Silco. Next season, she probably going to run because no one would seriously the Joker into a war, a bad war too. 😂
@@cinderspirit4229 a think she's like Harley Quinn , whose been flirting between anti-hero and villain sides. But she's more like the Joker, Jinx is a chaos demon. She wants what she want and kill gun down or blow up anything around her. Nobody listens to Ekko despite him dealing with her regularly through the time skip.
Nah, she is sorta the hero by definition. The “evil forces” of the show would be the literal oppression from the top side. This means anyone opposing them would be by in large “good” in the story format. This would make Jinx the character furthest from Piltover the city of oppression the hero. Remember that a hero has nothing to do with how you feel, do, or even try to do. It’s solely based on who you’re opposing, and Jinx is opposing the big bad of their world
She's not a villain
I just love hearing your thoughts and deep dives into all Arcane content! Definitely need to start looking into the rest of your stuff!
But Jinx does have an allegiance - to Vi. That's the only person she would never hurt, no matter what, her killing Silco proves it, one of the writers confirmed it too.
Which writer👀 I guess it was confirmed on Twitter?
Except she almost shot her twice
@@thaissabbatino1409 Fair enough, but I tend to think Jinx's shooting is less about loyalty than about being -mentally unstable- bat-sh*t-crazy.
@@ISpiers I agree on ep6, but on 7 not so much. I think she is just to unstable for us to talk about anything she wouldn't do
@@thaissabbatino1409 When you’re referring to E7, are you specifically referring to when Jinx hallucinates that Caitlyn is laughing at her and starts shooting?
The League Lore of Noxus you referred to is accurate. Plus Noxus has a leader, but not the one Ambessa is referring to. Plus in League's Lore, Noxus has also learned how to use Blood Magic and revived one of their strongest Warriors named Sion.
I think I agree with where you end up pegging Silco, but not with your logic that he should be there because he grew complacent and didn’t actually fight for the “just cause”. On the contrary we see him still down in the lower levels and still working towards his goals, as compared to the more corrupt and self-centered chem-barons who he demonstrated to be not even breathing the same air. In episode 4 he seemed to be trying to smuggle shimmer and says that the screw up “set them back weeks” and we also see that he’s trying to make gains over Piltover through weaponizing the stolen hextech and through further developing and refining shimmer (like with the roided up thugs in shimmer suits that were defending his factory).
What makes Silco evil is how he’s willing to go through such extreme means (sacrificing ANYTHING but Jinx for the cause) like threatening innocent children (or trying to have them killed in the case of Vander’s kids), exploiting child labor, coercing Deckard into taking shimmer, etc.
I think Singed is 100% chaotic evil and just a generic sort of “mad scientist” in the league of legends lore where he kidnaps and experiments on unwilling people, but here in Arcane I think they may be developing him into something more interesting and grey. It’s hard to evaluate him because you have to read between the lines and can interpret his motives in many different ways, but I don’t know if he’s truly evil. He does do some nice things, notably to Viktor, taking him in as an apprentice when he was just a lonely child and then offering the shimmer free of charge to help him with his project to save himself. Was he just self-motivated and transactional in his dealings even then?
I suspect that Singed is basically just a psychopath, capable of empathy (like in his decision to sedate Silco so he didn’t see Jinx get operated on) and being nice, but ultimately willing to set that aside for his research when it benefits him. He seems to treat friends/colleagues very differently from patients/test subjects, for instance. Without more information on his motives it’s hard to peg him down but I could see him potentially being fleshed out into true neutral or chaotic neutral, maybe even neutral evil.
I think the reason Silco stalled the revolution and instead built up his drug empire is Jinx. Vander wanted to maintain the status quo because he saw how people are hurt/killed by conflict. Silco eventually becomes more like Vander. He realizes that he can’t risk Jinx (he is initially furious when she goes out to steal the hextech gemstone).
In act 3, he basically confirms that Jinx is more important to him than an independent Zaun. His arc concludes with him being a more ruthless and cynical variant of Vander. He maintains the status quo to protect those who are important to him.
I agree deep down that Silco still wants to fight for the cause, but like Vander, he inadvertantly has made choices that have stalled his ability to further that cause, because of his daughter. "Is there anything so undoing as a daughter." Essentially he's simply never been able to push Zaun in the direction it needed to get its independence at the pace it should have, because Jinx has been his soft spot.
really love your videos. Cant wait to see what you have to say about season 2!
The big problem with these categorisations is that they require a contextual definition of how someone is lawful or chaotic or good or evil. now I think Lawful and Chaotic are easier to agree on - order vs chaos. Im comfortable the vast majority of people will agree.
But good vs evil is much more difficult. Can someone with no moral framework be good or evil? Their actions will, generally, tend to be evil. So evil outcomes. But they are neitral in those actions. And sometimes those actions can be good. The conflict in definition between Aims, Actions and Understanding actually make this category pretty much meaningless.
For example, Jinx has no moral compass. She doesn't do things which are evil (from her perspective). She is Chaotic Neutral. Or her Aim is to achieve Silco's goal, the Nation of Zaun, freedom from oppression (or at least Piltover oppression) for the people. She is Chaotic Good. Or her Actions result in death destruction, harm and pain. She is Chaotic Evil.
Also, Vi is Neutral good. She isnt just acting for Powder or her relationship with Powder, she has a deep moral conviction that Inequality is wrong and should be opposed. She cares for everyone (lots of hugs for all). She does fault both Powder and Jinx.
Agree a lot of it is subjective and PoV-based
That's why people argue about it
I think in general we need more detail than simply Good Neutral Evil. like give a sliding scale of 0 to 10 on each category. Mel is like a 1 on Evil, Ambessa is more like a 7. For example
Oh 100%. It's only after watching a video like this that I realize how insufficient this model is for labelling and grouping characters, especially complex and developing ones.
It's a fun tool to bring out every now and again, but like many others (the Political Compass and Myers-Briggs come to mind) it's best used to ask rather than only answer.
That said, I quite like it when I'm assessing a character's *actions*, where those can then accumulate into a character judgement (that might fluctuate with time).
Yeah, for me Vi is closer to True Good. Good does not mean Nice!
Vi actively tries to protect + save those she cares for: the crew, Vander, Jinx, Caitlyn, Zaun, then Piltover too. Obviously she has few qualms about stealing or giving out beatdowns to those who might not entirely have deserved it, and her eagerness to escalate conflict when Jayce was looking for peace could have led to a darker path.
Jinx? If I were the 'dungeon-master' I would have changed her alignment 10+ times, then permanent markered 'Chaotic Chaotic Evil Evil' on her character sheet.
Powder sets out to do good by deciding to help Vander, then commits (unintentional-ish) chaotic evil by detonates the monkey bomb, then cooperates with Silco under the pretence of 'righteous' work, then blows up an airship, then blows up a building, then blows up a bridge, then goes to blow up the council who had just signed a peace treaty.
Blatant, irredeemably evil actions from Chaos personified, BUT her character can hardly be summarized by just a label.
You have one of the best understanding of the dnd morality system I've seen. Totally agree.
At last, an arcane video that puts respect on sevikas name ✊😍
I love how you wrote in Heimerdingers pet, Wrenn, Matilda and Chuck. By far the best analogies of the whole video😂
Singed's Alignment: Science Science
I 100% agree with your list BUT I can see season 2 (when ever it comes out) shifting this list to a dagree.
I have really enjoyed your videos and love that they not only make me think A LOT about the characters and how we relate to them BUT ALSO sheds light on thing I normaly don't think about and presents other veiw points. You do a very good job about bringing as many details to the tabel and not being bias as much as posible. You stay as nutrual and alow me (the veiwer) to form my own opinion while still sharing yours.
I do wish you dove deeper in this video and I don't mind 30+ minute videos but not everyone does and you cover that by having other videos to cover other details/topics that can be further alaborated on.
Again, LOVE your videos and this one got the gears turning for me. I look forward to getting lost in your videos.
Just one point I thought that may or may not elevate Viktor up a to a good character. While he pushes a lot and takes extreme risks for personal gains, at the end of the series he does request Jayce (his best friend) to destroy the hexcore for him as he couldn't do it himself. This is someone who knows they have a problem and has now requested for help which is an extremely good moral quality even if it took something tragic to push him to this decision.
Fair point, similar to Mel also trying to do better
Also that decision at that point pretty much means giving up both his chance of legacy and his chance of survival. So ultimately when faced with the reality of his work actually harming others he puts other people's life and safety above all of his ambitions. That makes him chaotic good I think, especially when we give Jayce the benefit of the doubt although he made some decisions that harmed and killed other people. I think those priorities are also reflected in the scene where Mel suggests building weapons. If he just wanted to have a legacy, building powerful weapons that decide a war would actually be a great and easy way to be remembered, but he's utterly horrified at the suggestion. So while he is very ambitious, he wants his work to help others and would rather have no legacy at all than leaving something behind that causes harm.
Also I think he's mostly willing to take high risks because he thinks he's mostly just putting himself at risk. When he breakes into Heimerdinger's lab with Jayce, he's not really putting Jayce at risk because Jayce was about to commit suicide and doesn't really have anything to lose at that point. And when he does his experiment with the hexcore that gets Sky killed he actually tried to make sure he was alone while doing it. We can see from the running scene before that it's night, so probably no one else is at the lab and he has locked the door. Sky is only able to get in because she has a key. And she is only there at that time because she wanted to have a private chat with Viktor and knows from prior conversations that he spends his nights at the lab.
I really admire how you’re able to convey your ideas and thoughts
Marcus couldn't put Vi on trial or make her arrest public because then Silco would find out.
thank you for this!! if any show needed an alignment chart, it's arcane
//Looks up from behind his DM screen//
Interesting video, as always, Schnee!
My 2¢ on D&D Alignment is that Lawful characters are primarily motivated in relation to organized society, whereas Chaotic characters are primarily motivated by their self-interest.
Good and Evil are subjective. Much like the Star Wars Universe's steady state, I can argue that Piltover's utopian but oppressive topside is actually evil while the rebellious undercity is good.
Obviously, any categorization will result in a pointless oversimplification. Alignment in D&D is antiquated and awful, simply because people's motivations are much more subjective and complex than the Alignment system allows.
Fortunately, WotC is continuing to phase out Alignment.... but that's really a discussion for some other video.
Wow can't remember the last time I actually saw a cents symbol...! what a treat for the eyes lol
Sounds like you're sorta over the good/evil labels, but any thoughts on the arcane characters as far as lawful/chaotic? Sounds like you'd have a lot of my neutrals in chaotic. What would be neutral for you?
@@schnee1 You already know I admire your content.
Great questions! I welcome the conversation, but my brief thoughts are unspooling into multiple paragraphs.
You deserve better. I'll think on this and get back to you.
@@ISpiers I don’t play dnd, nor do I know much about alignment-
But can I just say that the way you two talk about your differences, or at least your opinions, is fantastic. That’s it, have a good day.
@@callmemad4515 Hey! Thanks!
Nice way to start the week!
@@ISpiers Man, I would do anything for more people to talk with this kinda respect. Anything. Anyways, I hope you have an amazing week.
i think marcus protecting vi was (at least for him) a way of atoning for what he'd allowed to happen in dealing with silco. if she stays in zaun she'll be killed, and he doesnt want that on his conscience
I think the reason Marcus arrests Vi without telling anyone is Silco. Silco wants Vis dead, but killing her isnt what Grayson would have done so Marcus does what he thinks is right and arrests Vi.
Gotta say you absolutely nailed what Noxus is all about. Completely a "rule or be ruled" type society.
So I saw your little comment about Marcus’s decision to save Vi and I wanted to speculate a bit on why he did it. I think he knows that he caused the whole situation. We get a tiny look at his guilt when he throws down the money when vander’s being dragged away. As someone who wants to be good, he probably felt that he was obligated to help her, and not watch as two kids die indirectly due to his actions. Obviously prison isn’t actually a good and healthy place for vi, so it’s pretty clear that he did it mainly for selfish reasons.
The Council "needed its pound of flesh", too. By bringing back the perpetrator, Marcus could improve his own standing and throw off suspicions about himself in the wake of Grayson's death.
@@Taliesin_ true, but I got the impression that he kept her there silently and covered it all up. Not sure though since either way it makes sense
@@Taliesin_ This would make sense if there were any records of her crimes, but she's a ghost. So it's safe to say he just felt bad and hid her there from Silco.
@@lockekappa500 There's no reason he can't have it both ways. He tells the council the bomber's been apprehended & jailed. He gets his promotion. Vi goes into Stillwater, where the new sheriff sees to it all records of her are scrapped.
I love that he tells us a bit about the process as well.
(Love this. XP)
Anyway, a note on Marcus Taking Vi: I've done a lot of thinking about how that all played out in between the timeskip and came up with a pretty solid headcanon I'm sticking to.
*This is my theory on how it all played out:*
Marcus sees the explosion, follows it. He sees Vi, who he recognizes by her description from Silco when they made the first deal, presumably. He saves her, and moves her to a secure location while he figures out what to do next. Silco confronts him, presumably threatens his baby daughter for the first time, and then offers Marcus to be to Silco, what Grayson was to Vander. Either Silco asks Marcus to be on the lookout for Vi, or Marcus lets slip he has her. He tells Marcus to kill her and Marcus pretends to comply before locking her up in Stillwater, quietly. (Which, he thinks is something he did for Vi, instead of to her. Marcus is such a complicated mess).
What he told the Council about all the dead bodies is a bit of a mystery, but he prolly describes it as a monster, or something, that killed the enforcers and the suspects while they were making the arrest. Maybe Silco tells him to say it was because of shimmer, this "new drug" developed in the Undercity, as Silco's whole thing is he wants to terrify the Topsiders. Marcus is seen as a hero, being the sole survivor, and perhaps with a little bit of help from Silco in the shadows, he is on his road to being the new Sherif in Grayson's stead.
This is all half speculation, but I think most of it fits pretty well. Arcane is the kind of show that avoids exposition dumps, but there are clues here and there regarding what happened. :P
love the theory!! it wouldnt make sense for what happened to have been marcus's plan from the outset, and i think you're also totally right that arcane likes to leave things for us to figure out and didnt feel the need to spoonfeed it to us
please never stop making arcane analysis videos thank you
marcus is like a mushy ball of guilt
I went through this mentally before watching and had some different answers, but, your reasoning is so good I had to pretty much agree across the board.
LMAO Marcus' daughter, Matilda, Chuck and the poro xD
The alignment mess aside, 13:20 is an absolutely perfect shot. "Morals? What morals?"
I don’t think, that Mel is evil, at least at the end of the show. She was born and raised in quite cruel family, but started to think more about making something good for people because of Jayce. That’s is why she voted for the peace with Zaun and symbolically left her Noxus past by taking off her ring
If we give Mel a "snapshot alignment score" of like "final episode Mel" then I agree
But we're saying "entire season Mel" so she is evil. Albeit I'd say "low/weak" Evil but still
Thank you, you're really making me want to watch this show
VI and Ekko Chaotic Good, Caitlyn clearly Lawful Good, Silco Lawful Evil, Mel Lawful Neutral, and most importantly, Viktor TRUE NEUTRAL
I just need some advice from people on the internet, so by the definition of Chacotic Neutral, Jinx would be exactly that and not Chaotic Evil, or am I just lost?
Never had a list like this that I 100% agreed on, nice video!