What did he teach more precisely? To me it's obvious. Persecution of Christians and anyone that doesn't want false Christ will be the ultimate fate globally, before Jesus returns. So no Star-Trek-Theology cop out is gonna happen.
That’s what I’m afraid of. It will be extremely heartbreaking if the rapture is post trib and we see so many pre tribbers lose faith and fall away because they had all their hope hanging on escaping the tribulation. I believe in a post trib rapture with the hope I’m wrong. But I’m prepared. If we are right, we will have to pray daily for our brother and sisters to stay strong and endure to the end!
Look up John Darby he started the rapture theory and the rapture theory has only been around for 200 years starting with a man John Darby and the WORD OF GOD has been around wayyy longer than 200 years, just do some research and keep listening to Dr alan kurshner he proves it over and over again without a doubt that there's no pre trib rapture.. God bless you and your family 😇 🙏
The church was not here for any of Daniel's previous 69 weeks, so why would we be here for any of Daniel's 70th week. It is a period of time that is so bad the Bible says it has not been seen before nor will ever be seen again which means it's worse than the flood of noah. The Bible also says that Jesus lays waste to the entire Earth and very few people remain. It has nothing to do with the church. It would catch Christians totally off guard. It would turn Christians away from the faith. Christians would do everything in their power to try to stop God's plan. Christians all over the world would take the mark over getting their head chopped off no one's going to want to get their head chopped off. Christians would have to break God's commandments over and over and over again just to get by. We would have to Rob riot loot steal pillage and most likely kill. There's going to be no going down to any of the stores and buying food supplies etc. Within hours of the first seal judgment or within hours of the pre-tribulation rapture the church. People are going to know their times up. Not once does the Bible give us any instructions to prepare for the tribulation. Yet if we're going to go through it we would need years worth of food supplies weapons to defend ourselves before the tribulation even begins. Jesus himself even says pray that you are deemed worthy to escape ALL these things that are to come to pass. I promise you we will be long gone before the Antichrist is even revealed.
I come at eschatology as a relatively newly saved child of God. I spent my first few years in my faith studying the old testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, followed by the epistles, before putting any considerable time into Revelation. I've spent the last 2 years in a mix of Old and New Testament general studies and a lot of time on Daniel, Matthew and Revelation. After repeatedly revisiting Matthew 24 - having had no preconceived notions of the end times interpretations - it was apparent to me that the pre-trib rapture was not squaring up with the Word. So, I started exploring other interpretations until I came upon Pre-Wrath and all the pieces just came together without having to do pretzel logic or forcing different passages to work with or against one another. I'd suggest that those with any interest in addressing some of the shortcomings in the arguments in defense of pre-trib to put pre-wrath to the test against the word of God. You may be glad you did.
@@boonwarner Jesse, I have to admit that my first reading of the Bible, before I was saved, was a weak attempt at understanding Revelation. I thought, why not just skip right to the last chapter to see how the book ends. Pretty funny now when I look back on that and when I was convinced that Revelation as absolutely crazy. And why wouldn't it since I hadn't done any of the necessary groundwork, chief among which were the creation account in Genesis, God's Law in Deuteronomy, the failure of living under human leadership in Judges and Kings and of course the fulfilment of prophecy and the defeat of death in the first coming of our Lord and Savior. That's the foundation built on rock rather than sand that I believe we all need. Blessing to you and yours, Jesse.
A true blessing awaits any believer who bases any doctrine on what is written in The Bible read in context rather than making any verse “fit” a doctrine.
I have been studying revelation for 7 to 8 years, glory to God that he showed me pre- wrath. If people would just read their bibles for what it is ! Gods living and breathing word. No need to move Gods scripture. If teachers move scripture around they do so to confirm their doctrine . Doctrine of lies. Bible is 100 % truth. God tells us exactly how Daniel 70 week will be played out from Daniel to Matthew 24 to Revelation. I pray the the delusion of pre-trib spirit be broke In Jesus name, Amen . Time to be spiritually and physically ready.
Lorelei Dorward, the parable of wheat and tares describes the great tribulation when Jesus sows seed (represented by the tribulation saint revival in Rev 7), then Satan sows seed (represented by the mark of the beast), and it says the wicked tares are harvested and burned first, then the good wheat are ingathered to Jesus. How do you interpret this in your pre-wrath interpretation where the wheat is harvested first?
This is about Jesus Seed and the devils seed that grow together. We can tell by the fruit that they produce. When it's time for Jesus to harvest the field on the Great day of The Lord their will be judgment on all that do not follow Jesus Christ . The judgement will be by fire. On the same day or even at the same moment in time the judgement will fall on the earth and true believers in Christ will be raptured up. One right after the other.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 2 Peter 3:4 states it well, " there will be mockers and scoffers ...saying when is the time of his coming?..." Read the entire chapter 😉.
Tribulation = suffering and/or persecution allowed by God for testing and/or purification. Wrath of God, especially in an end of time context = judgment!
@@DP-ih6nt - there is a possibility that our minds are not blameless at the coming of Jesus. One of the ways we can remain blameless in our minds (or while being) is through tribulation. There are many examples in scripture of God allowing such things to ensure that His people are blameless.
@@DP-ih6nt In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:6-7 ESV
It’s the argument which fits consistently, but it also fits with God’s plan for salvation. He needs boots on the ground to lead people to the truth and help them through
Michael Rowntree Here is an outline I’ve seen of how these days correlate: - 1260 Days (False Peace) > Abomination of Desolation - 1260 Days (Great Tribulation) > Feast of Trumpets / Rapture - 30 Days (Reclamation) > Triumphal Entry - 45 Days (Restoration) > Millennial Kingdom Begins
The wrath of the Lamb which is the Trumpets, and the wrath of God, which is the vials, both happen after the seven years are over. These events happen for a minimum of three years and eleven months longer than the seven year period, based upon the length of the fifth trumpet and sixth trumpet events. All the views go astray on either when the wrath of God begins, or how long is the wrath of God. They also miss the second coming of Jesus at the end of the seven year period, to gather the church out of the earth, and take them back to heaven, this happens in Revelation 7:9-14 and Revelation 14:14-16 these raptures are never explained by any of the existing views, but I show this, and a third coming of Jesus, that also is not explained in any of the views out there, if u want to see this for yourself I have 5 videos on RUclips under the title Pt1 the pre wrath rapture and the third coming of Jesus Don't block yourself from expanding your understanding of Revelation.
For those considering Alan's take on the timing of the rapture and the distinction between tribulation (Satan's persecution of Christians and Jews) and God's Wrath (His judgment on unbelievers via Trumpet and Bowl judgments), consider this... The disciples asked Jesus 'What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?' In his answer, Jesus listed, in order, a dozen or so events that had to happen (culminating in the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars) just prior to his appearance in the clouds and His gathering of the elect (Rapture). Then in Revelation, Jesus showed John a similar list of events. And He covered many of those events twice, in two separate visions... once in Rev 6-7 and again in Rev 12-14 (where He introduced more characters to the story and added more detail). Here's a comparison of those events in Matthew 24 and in Revelation: Event Matt Revelation (2 visions, same events) False Christs 24:46:113:8 (1st Seal) Wars 24:66:313:7 (2nd Seal) Famines, Earthquakes (Pestilence Luke 21:11) 24:76:5-8 13:16 (3rd & 4th Seals) Persecution, Martyrdom 24:96:913:10-15 (5th Seal) False prophets 24:1113:11-14 Gospel to all nations 24:1414:6 Abomination of Desolation 24:1512:6 Flee Judea 24:1612:6-16 Beginning of 'great tribulation' 24:217:1412:17 Days of Great Tribulation 'cut short' 24:22 Sun & moon darkened, stars fall 24:296:12 (6th Seal) Jesus' 2nd Coming (on the clouds) 24:306:1514:14 (6th Seal) Gathering of the elect (Rapture) 24:317:2-14 14:15 (6th Seal) There is no 7-year 'Tribulation'. Scripture only mentions a period of 'great tribulation' (Matt 24:21, Rev 7:14) which starts after the Abomination of Desolation and lasts 42 months (Dan 9). And based on Jesus' answer in Matt 24, it appears Daniel's 70th Week will be split into 4 parts: 1. Beginning of birth pains (seems to include Seals 1-4 as Antichrist gains political power) 2. Great Tribulation (Seal 5 as Antichrist declares himself god and then persecutes Christians and Jews) 3. Jesus' 2nd Coming (Seal 6, on the clouds, marking of the 144,000, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture) 4. The end (seems to be referring to God's judgment/wrath) Note that Jesus didn't specifically mention God's Wrath in Matt 24 other than to say "And then, the end will come". But He did reveal God's Wrath to John in Rev 8-11 (Trumpet Judgments) and in Rev 15-20 (Bowl Judgments). The chapters in between (Rev 12-14) are a recap of the events of Rev 6-7 where he introduces new characters and provides more detail. God's judgment happens AFTER Jesus appears on the clouds (Seal 6) and the scroll is fully opened (Seal 7). Once we realize that Jesus described the events leading up to his return in two separate visions (Rev 6-7 and Rev 12-14), Revelation becomes much less confusing. It also helps to know that the scroll contains the Father's instructions for his wrath and that his wrath can't begin until the scroll is fully opened (wrath starts with Seal 7 in Rev 8). I suppose we won't know for sure until the day comes, but a Pre-Wrath Rapture, at the 6th Seal when Jesus first appears, sure makes the most sense to me.
@@plalelal That's the way I read it, Al. I was taught Pre-Trib. But the more I studied, the more I realized that's not what the bible teaches. “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains..." Matt 24:15-16 "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day (coming of Christ and our being gathered to him) will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thes 2:3-4
Nicely done sir. This was one point I wish Alan would have spent some time on. The seals are the birth pains, not Gods wrath. I believe this is the biggest point of contention which leads to a false description of the 7 years as the tribulation period.
@@plalelal because the last trumpet is not referring to the trumpets of wrath. It’s more likely about one of two silver trumpets used in Israel for gathering of the people.
I’ve been a pre trib since the early 1970s but even as a 12-year-old in church, I couldn’t fathom two second comings. Because of the blessed work of Dalton Thomas, I have switched my position on the matter. You guys did an excellent job of bringing this out even more. Thank you and God bless you
@@henrymiranda1440 No he doesn't, as a matter of fact he or Joel (I think it was him) shadowbanned me like a liberal, because I destroyed all his points. In other words, like a coward, he wanted the views, and I could pst, but my post would not show up, that's a juvenile liberal type spirit, not a Christian type spirit. The Anti-Christ s not a Muslim that is like the dumbest thing I have ever seen in years and Joel, even though he has a good heart, unlike Dalton, is just flat out wrong, and I can destroy their thesis, so instead of challenging me thy shadowbanned me and thus I wrote them a terse e-mail and unsubscribed. Dan. 8:9 tells us EXACTLY where the AC is born, in that verse, God gives us a SIMPLE four-way directional box, and it states he will WAX GREAT (Conquer) TOWARDS the East, TOWARDS the South, and TOWARDS Israel, thus the TOWARDS means he conquers in that direction because Israel gets Conquered. Thus he conquers by coming from the Northwest corridor of this Four General Kingdom. Thus it has to be Greece where he is born at. This also applies to Dan. 7 which says he must arise out of the 10 (Divided Europes complete number, 10 stands for COMPLETION) which arise out of the Fourth Beasts Head. Thus with Greece being in the E.U. and Egypt and Turkey NOT BEING in the E.U. only Greece qualifies this man to be the President of the E.U. He is an Assyrian by blood (Turk) according to Isaiah chapter 10, whose family has moved to Greece (they have a common border. Then he's born in Greece (arises amongst the 10 or in the E.U.) Thus he ARISES to power in the E.U. (Fourth Beast). There is no Muslim Anti-Christ, those guys are just living in a fantasy world. I destroy all Mid r Post Trib POV.
@Bryan R Rivera Of Course Dan. 8 has a future fulfillment starting in verse 9, he's called the Little Horn just like in Dan. 7, who is an END TIME BEAST. God's isn't giving us two different Little Horns brother. We can also see via Gabriel's interpretation of this vision that this man is an End Tie Beast, it was so in Daniel ch. 8. One thing that deceives many people is the 2300 days, it is not 2300 days, it's 1150 days, IRS 2300 Evening and Mornings Sacrofices or OBLATIONS unto the Lord, Daniel couldn't;t make actual sacrifices, he paid TRIBUTE to God, see Dan. 9:21, at the time of the Evening Sacrifice Gabriel came unto Daniel and told him all these things via the 70 weeks. The very verse (Dan. 8:14) has TWO WORDS they interpret as DAY, and it's wrong it's Evening and Morning. I can show you via a post I made today who it's wrong. Thus, now we can see the end time sacrifice is taken away for 1150 days, thus ot FITS, and we can see Gabriel says it is an End Time Beast. Dan. 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.......... 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the *transgressors are come to the full* a king of *fierce countenance* and understanding *dark sentences* shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be *mighty, but not by his own power (See Rev. 13 the Dagon gives him his POWER* and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall *destroy the mighty and the holy people* 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall *magnify himself in his heart* and by *peace shall destroy many (The whole Mediterranean Sea Region, not just Israel)* he shall also stand up against the *Prince of princes(Jesus) but he shall be *broken without hand (Jesus SPEAKS Victory)* 26 And the vision of the *evening and the morning* which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. NOW WATCH. See the ABOVE Evening and Morning? The KJV Translators translated it CORRECTLY in verse 26, but in verse 14 they called it DAYS, I will post the Hebrew Transliteration. WATCH THIS: Dan. 8:26 And the vision 4758 of the evening *6153 and the morning 1242* which x834 was told 559 z8738 [is] true: 571 wherefore shut thou up 5640 z8798 x859 the vision; 2377 for x3588 it [shall be] for many 7227 *days. 3117* See the Evening and Morning numbers? WATCH the same numbers in verse 14 where it says DAYS INCORRECTLY. And he said 559 z8799 unto x413 me, Unto x5704 two thousand 505 and three 7969 hundred 3967 *days; 6153 1242* then shall the sanctuary 6944 be cleansed. 6663 z8738 SEE WHAT HEY DID? LOL, It is not Days, it's 2300 Evening and Mornings, thus it FITS INSIDE the End Time Beasts 1260 day rule. Now look up at the very first Hebrew Transliteration Post, at the very last word, it is DAY and the Strongs number is 3117 (YOWM) not EREB (6153) which means DUSK or BOQER (1242) which means morning, Break of day. Thus the 2300 are 2300 Evening and Morning Sacrifices/TRIBUTES unto God, which can just be prayer time as ot was with Daniel I assume, besides, Jesus is our once and for all sacrifice. Thus the Tribute is a tradition, they can still stop the Evening and Morning prayers unto Jesus in the Temple of God. Psstt, that which is TAKEN AWAY (1290) is Jesus Worship, not some profaned meat sacrifice. Meaning the Jews REPENT just BEFORE the DOTL.
In the early days I was pre-trib and then I read the Bible for myself and studied this out. One of the verses that always bothered me was Matthew 24:29 after the tribulation of those days. And then if you read further it has all of first Thessalonians chapter 4 language in the clouds trumpet gathering. After the tribulation of what days of what he just explained earlier in Matthew 24 the man-made/devil made tribulations. You can also read about it in Revelation six. Also in first thes Chapter 5 it starts with a but that’s a conjunction and then he’s telling us to watch be sober what are we watching for if we were already pre-trib out. And it’s so simple in revelation. It’s in chronological order. We start John in the first century, then chapter 6 tribulation, then the end of chapter 6 the rapture, then chapter 7 the results of the rapture, and then after that chapter 8 ,9,10 wrath . It all wraps up in chapter 11. Then chapter 12 Jesus is born we’re starting all over again first century. Chapter 13 tribulation, chapter 14 rapture. Then as we go along you hit the wrath again. Read the Bible and don’t worry about tradition. God will bless that.
Rev 10:7 is rapture...compare with 1Cor 15:52, also rapture. Seals trumpets and bowls are not consecutive, they overlap. Rapture is 7th seal 7th trumpet 7th bowl. PREWRATH view raises lots of questions, and is inconsistent. Post teib is the correct view.
Revelation 10 still it’s not pre-TRIB. I know you want it to be pre-TRIB and in a perfect world so would I put the Bible does it speak of it anywhere not one verse not even Revelation 3:10.. And in history some of the greatest pre-TRIB guys who actually written books about it said there’s not one verse that supports a pre-TRIB rapture.
Matthew 24 is written to the nation of Israel . The church is still part of God's mystery and nothing is known about any church until Matthew 16:8 and only briefly mentioned to Peter . Jesus only mentioned the church but never said anything about who they were .
@@edge2sword186 who are the elect? Seth, Noah, Abraham, apostles including Paul, us, who believe in Jesus as the Messiah. All elect who believe in Jesus, He will raise up and gather them in the air to meet the Lord. There are also another group of elect. They are those who believe in Jesus as the Messiah after His coming and rapture. They are those 'BLESSED' that Daniel writes about, who make it through God's wrath and into the MILLENIAL kingdom in earthly bodies. They make it to the end of 1335 days.
@@lluda44 It depends on your view of the dispensations . Each era has it's place but real faith is common to all dispensations . The old testament saints were raised and seen in the holy city along with Christ .
As a long-time student of escatology regarding all end-time prophesy Scriptures, I too have the pre-wrath view; however, I believe that the rapture will happen just before God begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth, and that happens just BEFORE the the 6th seal is opened. When the 6th seal is open, God causes horrible destruction on the earth, to the point where even the people who are hiding in the caves wish for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from Him who sits on the throne (in the clouds as people are being raptured) as all eyes on earth will see Him (Rev 1:7). The witnesses on earth of these catostrophic events have stated in Rev 6:17 state that "surely their wrath (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) HAS COME (began with the opening of the 6th seal). Chapter 7 is merely providing a "closeup" of the rapture event along with the sealing of the 144,000, who remain on the earth during God's wrath but are put in a safe place to protect them. Thus, it is obvious that God's wrath begins when the 6th seal is opened, not the 7th seal. Please explain if you do not agree and why. Thank you for this excellent interview.
Finally I found someone who is teaching what I'm reading. Now I can go further with it. A couple of years ago I stopped watching videos on eschatology and just study for myself, because whatever they are talking about I can not see in the Bible. So not sure what Bible they are reading from.
Kurshcner's view is intriguing. It would be really helpful if you guys could put a downloadable comparison chart handout together for Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Post-Trib Pre-Wrath views on it containing a brief explanation and scriptures for each.
Dr K has great information. I would encourage him to listen to this interview and work on his delivery. I find what he has to say excellent, but his delivery is difficult to follow.
I’m a pre-Wrather here’s what I think in response to your great question. I believe what the scriptures actually state, that the “dead rise first” and then those that are alive and remain meet Jesus in the air at Jesus’s second coming then His feet touch down, earthquake Armageddon. I believe that the secret Pre-Trib rapture is a lie because the scriptures never says that the living church are raptured first before the dead in a “secret” rapture. Also there is the matter of the dead martyrs souls under the altar at Revelation 6:9 and the issue of the tribulation saints. The martyrs are told to wait, so this means that the resurrection hasn’t occurred all the way up to Revelation 6:9. Anyway to answer your question ALL of the dead in Christ to include the Martyrs and the tribulation saints, and the 2 witnesses that were killed in Jesus name rise first at the resurrection and then those that are alive and remain in Christ are raptured, they all get glorified bodies. Those that survived and did not take the mark of the beast are the ones that repopulate the 1000 year millennial kingdom reign of Jesus on Earth. They are deceived by satan because he is let back out of the pit at the end of the 1000 years and it’s the Gog/Magog war. God bless you and keep you all safe. 🙏 No there is not. The dead rise first the scriptures do not say that the living church rises before the dead when the tribulation saints will still die in the name of the Lord Jesus. They will get a glorified body.
I appreciate the perspective & am in agreement as of now! Just cant figure out how some of the great teachers like Chuck Missler, Perry Stone, James White, etc are all in to the Pre Trip Rapture? Kind of perplexed! God Bless
Probably because it’s part of a great delusion. The god of this world has blinded them because they love not the truth. Doctrines and precepts of men and such.
MENE MENE TEKEL, many people don’t understand the Rapture because it was a hidden mystery until it was revealed in plain language thru Paul, but few people keep that fact in mind when reading the Bible. For example, many think that Matt 24:29-31 is strong proof of a post-trib Rapture because Jesus was talking and talking clearly, BUT the Rapture mystery hadn’t been revealed yet, so Jesus never talked about it using clear language, so this cannot be about the Rapture. And since it's not about the Rapture, post-trib is false.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 it does appear plainly that Jesus comes a second time (once)....not twice. Paul...yes what does he say...especially to those concerned they had missed the 2nd coming of Christ. He said it would nit happen until after the son of perdition appeared. It is clear.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 This argument makes no sense. The mystery always existed within the First Resurrection promise. Somebody has to be alive when the First Resurrection occurs unless every saint on earth is dead. The Rapture is simply the Resurrection of the living that happens second in sequence.. Matt 24: 29-31 is the gathering together of the First Resurrection/Rapture not just the rapture. For the dead rise first. Then those who are alive. We are gathered together in the clouds. The straight up rapture verse is in Rev 14:14-16 because it’s describing the harvest of the earth.. Mark 13: 26-27 also describes the First Resurrection/ Rapture. Luke 21 has a different take on this. It omits the gathering together phrase and opts in its place the Look Up for our redemption draws near promise. Whereas, Matt & Mark have the cloud staging emphasis. Luke presents the earth point of view just prior to the gathering together.. PAUL CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY tells us we won’t be gathered together (First Resurrection/Rapture) until AFTER the antichrist is here... in 2 Thes 2:1-4. I don’t know how the Holy Spirit thru Paul could make it anymore clear-Even doubling down on let no one deceive you??? And we also know that the Rapture occurs at the LAST TRUMPET. The true name for the Rapture ought be the LAST TRUMPET Rapture. And there’s only one last Trumpet in Revelation=the 7th. Follow the mystery of the episunagoge (the GATHERING TOGETHER)... “Behold, I tell you a MYSTERY : We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, (First Resurrection) and this mortal must put on immortality.” (Rapture) I Corinthians 15:51-53 NKJV “having made known to us the MYSTERY of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might GATHER TOGETHER in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him.” Ephesians 1:9-10 NKJV “The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, •that there should be delay no longer, •but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the MYSTERY of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.” Revelation 10:5-7 NKJV What happens at the 7th Trumpet? Figure it out. Hint=First Resurrection followed by the Rapture... “...And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”” Revelation 11:18 NKJV WRATH OF GOD is now coming to obliterate Satan’s antichrist beast kingdom... NOTE: SEE ALSO SEAL 5 in relation to Rev 20 and the First Resurrection...
For those who want a much greater in depth explanation of the pre wrath rapture then I highly recommend watching David Nathan’s teaching on it. He did a series on eschatology in 2010 and again in 2017. Both are very good.
@@ignitedisciplemaking he is a Jewish believer who came to Christ many years ago. He is from/in South Africa. On his RUclips channel he has a video where he talks about when/how he came to Christ while performing his mandatory 2 years in the S.A. Army. I have followed him for a number of years and have yet to hear him say anything in gross error, and believe me when I say I fact check (like the Bereans) everyone I listen to. I have also corresponded with him thru email many times and asked him questions and he has always responded promptly. His RUclips channel is David Nathan.
I strongly agree with Peter. David Nathan is a very solidly Bible based teacher. Wonderful testimony and a very humble man. He does live RUclips on Sunday evenings his time (South Africa).
The difference between the "great tribulation" and the wrath of God is that the time great tribulation is when Satan's wrath will be poured out on God's people (Rev 12:12-17) but the time of God's wrath being poured out on the unredeemed world will occur "immediately after the tribulation [caused by Satan] of those days" (Mat 24:29-31).
Dr Michael Heiser said best you can do is make an educated guess on Eschatology. So be prepared like the Lord can come at any minute and be prepared to go through tribulation. We will have to wait and see, keep looking up.
Jesus did not teach Christians to make educated guesses. That would make Jesus's teaching disingenuous, because he says that not only can we understand but _should_ understand the framework of how things will unfold: “Remember, I have told you ahead of time.” (Matt 24:25)
Dr. Alan Kurschner Extrapolating all that from that quote is a bit of a stretch. It can simply mean “when it happens, remember I told you”. Doesn’t necessarily mean “you should know exactly how and when it will happen.” Still, the closest understanding does seem to be “pre wrath/mid trib”.
I am pre wrath and a follower of Dr Heiser's teachings, but this is my view as well. I expect to go through tribulation, but hope I'm wrong. My worry is that my pre-trib friends may fall away
There is a clear and consistent emphasis all throughout the Bible on not just the Day of the Lord with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, but also with a gathering, a deliverance, a rest, or a redemption which occurs on this day too. I've heard so many admit that there's a deliverance or rapture on this day, but they say it is not the church. I keep trying to get someone to point out Scripture which makes the distinction between a pre-trib rapture and the one here at the 6th seal with the signs, but so far I haven't had anyone bring forth good evidence for multiple gatherings or raptures. So, I have to conclude that the one at the 6th seal is the one and only resurrection and rapture. The fact that the innumerable multitude is too great to number should be a clue that this is not just some small number of tribulation saints. Then they match up with the same gatherings or redemption or deliverance we see after the signs in sun, moon, and stars in Matthew 24:29-31, Luke 21:25-28, Mark 13:24-27, and Joel 2:31-32. We see other passages which also show a rest, deliverance, resurrection, or redemption just before God's judgment. Luke 17:29-30, 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10, Matthew 24:37-41, Isaiah 26:19-21. With several of these we see the deliverance of the righteous is said to come on the same day as the judgment on the ungodly commences. This judgment is compared to the days of Noah in Matthew 24:37 and we see according to 2nd Peter 3:7 that this description of judgment raining down from heaven is consistent in both passages, only rather this time the judgment comes in the form of fire raining down from heaven and not water. This judgment in fire is also compared to the days of Lot with Sodom and Gomorrah. It's very similar only this time the judgment is global and not localized. Now this deliverance on the Day of the Lord gets tons of coverage throughout scripture, but I do not see a pre-trib rapture specifically described anywhere in scripture. It must be heavily inferred at places like Revelation 4 with the 24 elders being representatives of the church. Very strange that God would give so much attention to a small number of tribulation saints and seemingly ignore the main body of believers? Even with 1st Thessalonians 4 which is perhaps the most definitive rapture passage in the entire Bible, we see Paul go directly from the resurrection and rapture in chapter 4 to talking about the Day of the Lord in chapter 5 so as to seemingly link these events together. Why talk to the Thessalonians about the Day of the Lord if they will be resurrected or raptured years previous? And again Paul makes the same connection to our rest occurring on the Day of Vengeance in 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10. Remember these are not Jews, these are church age Gentile saints. And this happens multiple times. I would say he does it again a 3rd time in 2nd Thessalonians 2. So, we meet the 2 or 3 witness criteria of 2nd Corinthians 13:1 The "concerning the times and the seasons" phrase not only links the resurrection and rapture in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 to the Day of the Lord in chapter 5, but is also a clear reference to something Jesus said in Acts 1:7 in conjunction with His return and restoring the kingdom of Israel.
The great tribulation isn't going to be fun. But although the saints will be martyred, we are already blessed with eternal heaven and will be given holy crowns for enduring that evil persecution.
I believed in pretrib rapture because that is what I was taught. When I read the bible for myself I couldn't see it. Too many things don't jive. Wheat and tares grow together till harvest. Lot removed on the day judgment fell. That day shall not come till there is a great falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. And those are just a start. I believe the pre trib doctrine will cause the great falling away. Be not deceived and fear not.
I first heard this view about 7 years ago from a Messianic Rabbi, Rabbi Baruch with Love Israel Ministries. This Rabbi was raised in Israel. He was brought up in the synagogue and clearly understands the Torah. When he accepted Christ as the Messiah he saw no distinction or need in putting away the Torah. His teachings are wonderful and pulls the books of the Bible together. He was the first teacher that I had ever heard explain the difference between tribulation and wrath.
The biggest point that pre tribulation folks get wrong is in trying to make the words “tribulation” and “wrath” synonymous when they are not. Tribulation, from the Greek word thlipsis, is different than wrath, from the Greek word orgay. They have never been synonymous, have never been from the same source and have never been directed at the same people. Tribulation has always been from Satan and directed primarily against God’s people, whereas wrath is from God and is totally directed against Satan and his followers. It was when I grasped this simple truth that the scales fell from my eyes and I saw that not only was the pre tribulation position, which I was raised with and knew nothing else, was wrong and the pre wrath position was in fact the truth as found in Scripture l
The biggest thing pre wrathers get wrong, is claiming Jesus only comes back once! He comes in the clouds, raptures the saints and returns to heaven and does some celebrating! He then will return again at Armageddon, just like the pretribbers say!
@@dudleygordon6191 uhh, nope. We understand that His revealing and return is in two steps. The first is when He returns in the air to retrieve His bride, but He doesn’t land on the earth, and His full return later on when He lands on the Mount of Olives just as spoken of by the angels in this passage: Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. If you really look at what pre tribbers and pre wrathers believe there is not a lot of difference outside the timing of the Harpazo/Rapture. That one point is a big deal, but everything else is very much the same.
@@giselatimmins Did you just two step me? If Pretribs Jesus comes once for the saints and then returns to heaven and comes again later, that’s two returns! It’s the same for the prewrathers! Two returns, once in the clouds and once to the earth! Don’t two step me!
@@giselatimmins He returns in the air and then He’ll return to the earth! 🤔🤔🤔 Sounds like two, 2, returns! He’s coming again and then again later?? 🤦🏼🤷🏼 Just like pretribbers say it will happen! Don’t 2 step with me! 😂
I have leaned pre-trib most of my life, but always had trouble with II Thess 2. I never ruled out mid or pre-wrath. I have ruled out post-trib, as there are many reasons to. I am now studying pre-wrath and am more leaning that way. I read the pre-wrath books when they came out years ago, but just wasn't in the right place to understand,
What a cloudy and murky position pre-wrath is. When asked for a "timeline for a pre-wrath position" such as pre-trib (before the 7 years), mid-trib (in the middle of the 7-years), post-trib (after the 7 years), all Alan has to offer is in saying, "We don't know." At least the true mid-trib position positively identifies Paul's 'last trump' of I Cor 15:52 at Rev 10:7 to Rev 12:5, mid-way. And BTW, Marvin Rosenthal, one of the fathers of a Pre-wrath rapture in his 1990 book, the 'Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church," has the rapture at 5 1/4 years into the 7 years. These pre-wrath guys cannot even agree, and some are post-trib without even knowing it by placing the rapture in Matthew chapter 24 as one event and/or two separate events yet Matt 24:31 is still the rapture and/or that somewhere within Matthew chapter 24 it parallels or details the rapture somehow. But as I always say, it's ok to agree to disagree on eschatology as we share a common salvation. But the pre-wrath position has one skating in the rink all over the place with one blade. Blessings...
Even the thumbnail for the video mixes up pre-wrath with post-trib as if they are the same. Should say pre-wrath vs. post-trib but some pre-wrath believers are post-trib and don’t even know it
@@writethevisionministry3050Alan does do a good job in arguing against a pre-trib rapture on the ‘falling away’ in II Thessalonians in his videos and agree there.
I think God deliberately didn't allow us to know exactly the end times timetable: he wants us to be humble and to keep in a state of readiness both for suffering and for snatching away. So I think post-trib pre-wrath fits in best with most of the bible passages, but I do bear in mind Jesus said he would come as a thief when everyone was carrying on as normal, which doesn't sound like a traumatised post-trib world to me..... so I also bear in mind pre-trib could be correct and we could be snatched away at any moment now. BUT.... Trying to pin down exact dates and a timetable will never succeed because God has said 'no one knows' (Matthew 24 v 36) and too much focus on that can become a distracting obsession when the whole idea of the end should make us focus on living a holy life (2 Peter 3 11-12)
The bible tells us exactly the timetable. The Matthew 24:15-22 tells us the Great Tribulation begins right after the mid point of the 7 year period, the abomination of desolation. And that "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." Then it goes into explaining the coming of the Son of Man to gather his elect. The great tribulation will be the persecution of Christians, when they refuse to take the mark and worship the beast. For the rest of the world they will still be living normal lives, buying, selling and partying like the days of Noah. When Jesus comes back to rapture the rest who are alive and remain, it will be followed with His wrath being unleashed on the world. They will not be expecting it so it will overcome THEM like a thief in the night, not us. "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober." 1 Thessalonians 5: 4-6. No where in scripture does it describe a secret rapture just like, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.." That's not saying the whole event will be in a twinkling of an eye, it's saying just our bodies will be changed in a twinkling of a eye. 2 Thes 2 says that our gathering together to Him (rapture) and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, when he sits as God in the temple of God. That right there completely cancels out any pretrib rapture. And we know that that is at the mid point of the 7 years so that also tells us we have a list of signs and events that have to happen before the rapture/second coming. The pretrib teaching is a false teaching and posttrib is not right either. the prewrath interpretation is the only one that lines up with scripture completely. The rapture will be at a unknown time anywhere after the great tribulation but before the end of the 7 years.
@@andreagrosso1925 Wow False teaching!!! So you are saying JESUS was lying when he said in Matthew 24:34, “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place? Who was Jesus talking to? He was talking to his disciples! This already happened! JESUS Won !!!!!!!!
@@madrick2831 Of course Jesus was not lying. He is saying the generation that will see all these things will not pass away until it is all fulfilled. That does not mean it was their generation.
@@andreagrosso1925 No that’s not what the Bible says!!!! JESUS said “this Generation “ He would of said that or the generation! This was a local judgement, this judgment is old testament language!
He was asked what is the difference between post tribulation and pre wrath. I do not feel he gave a definitive answer and in fact may Have left some confused. He did a lot of stumbling in his speech and it doesn't really seem that he had an answer to the question. It seems to me that pre wrath is just another way to mark a particular event in Christ 2nd coming. In order for Wrath to start, the tribulation has to end, thereby making the pre wrath position, post trib anyway. Don't get me wrong I'm a post tribulation believer and I have learned a lot from the pre wrath position.
I've listened to Alan a bunch of times and there's so many aspects to the pre-wrath position and so many finer points that sometimes it's difficult for him and not just him, but others to stay on the subject at hand. I think they have the discussion much better organized and compartmentalized in the mini series they did, "7 pretrib problems and the pre-wrath rapture." It is true pre-wrath and post trib are both really post trib. Matthew 24:29 says the Day of the Lord commences with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars after the tribulation of those days. The only difference is that traditional post trib teaching says the Day of the Lord with the rapture immediately preceding will be the same day as Revelation 19 and the battle of Armageddon. Pre-wrath teaches the Day of the Lord comes at the 6th seal in Revelation 6 corresponding with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars. Pre-wrath makes a finer distinction between the Great Tribulation (Satan's wrath against Israel and the saints) and the wrath of God which does not commence until after the rapture and the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal.
Kyle C, there are many interpretations of end time prophesies because God made them confusing so that some would see and hear but not understand because they have callous hearts, heavy ears and closed eyes.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 Interesting Similar to how Christ spoke of the Parables. In essence, the entire Bible is a Parable. What is your stance related to the Millennial Kingdom? I have my own opinion but its not popular nowadays, known as Postmillenialism. .
@@kylec8950, to be specific, Jesus said in Matt 13 that he spoke mysteries in parables (veiled language) so that some would understand and others not, then he told more parables and clearly explained them to his disciples. One fascinating thing about that is the fact that Jesus also taught the Rapture mystery using veiled language but never explained what those parables and metaphors meant, then Paul later came and explicitly revealed the mystery using plain language. And that’s critical to remember when reading the Gospels because it means that nothing Jesus said in plain language or clearly explained could be about the Rapture, and that means Matt 24:29-31 cannot be about the Rapture because Jesus spoke this in plain language. So there goes post-trib. Regarding the Millennium, I believe the Lord will rule the world as King of Kings on David’s throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, and the Lord will fulfill all the promises he made to the Patriarchs then.
A very good commentary ! The good Dr. got a little carried away with terminology (lost me a bit) . . . but I received enough to define myself as a pre-Wrather ! The one verse that clinches it for me is Revelation 16:15, where (in RED letters) Jesus states that at that point in the 7 Year Tribulation timeline, is where He returns. "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame". Rev. 16:15 THAT is the Second Coming of Christ !
Please also note that based on the Greek word “thlipsis”, PERSECUTION can synonymously be interchanged with TRIBULATION so it is quite appropriate to use the phrase GREAT PERSECUTION equally to GREAT TRIBULATION. We may have used the translation “tribulation” so often and equated it with Daniel’s 70th week that confusion results from labels. I have posted an in-depth and a summary video on my channel to further support the precepts of this video’s teaching.
Absolutely correct=Great Persecution of antichrist against the saints or Satan’s Wrath-(Thumos) is great Tribulation. And yes, a 7 year Tribulation (that is only given 3&1/2 years) has become so cliche with Pretribers linking it to Daniels 70th that Persecution is a better choice I believe because it wakes people up to what it actually is-that being against the saints to take the mark of the beast and worship its image or face death... Christians won’t be here they say. REALLY??? Whereas, the 5th Seal and Paul says otherwise in 2 Thes 2-that our gathering together= (First Resurrection followed by the Harpazo) can’t happen until after antichrist appears. I don’t know how the Holy Spirit could make it anymore clear through Paul... doubled down with the exhortation-LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU!!! Statement: God’s Wrath is in the 7 Bowls-period. It’s what His Word calls it. The 7 Trumpets contain God’s Judgments (including WOE status) but they are NOT God’s full indignation WRATH=Ogre. IE: “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of THE WRATH OF GOD on the earth.”” Revelation 16:1 NKJV
My problem with this view is that it is still based on Dispensationist theory. I completely reject Dispensationism. Apart from that, I agree that there is a pre wrath, post-trib rapture. I also find that not all of Revelation is written chronologically, which makes it difficult to pin down exactly when these things take place.
When the 2 witnesses are called up, that's also when the 7th trumpet sounds, God speaks and the 1st resurrection or rapture of the dead in Christ rise then we who are alive and remain. Then wrath is unleashed. Only the vials are specifically called the wrath of God
@PostTPreW yes, I am aware of that, but thank you for your comment. As I said above, I have a problem with Dispensationism. I think it's Antisemitic and Replacement Theology. It is obvious that the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet referred to by Paul.
Excellent explanation Alan. Scriptures start to flow to mind “I have told you ahead of time”! So much scriptures become very relevant from a prewrath view! “Look up, your redemption draws near” Luke 21
The cut short part is the area of difficulty. It can mean to cut back but it can also mean that something will not last any longer than. Because the scriptures say " that for the elect sake the time will be cut short" so we assume this is believing saints that have to be rescued before none are left, but if you read Rev 5:9-11 it is intentional that many saints are supposed to be marterred. This could be considered a contradiction. So there needs to be some clarification here.
I'm also pre-wrath but i see the seals as the siege of Jerusalem paralleled to Ezekiel 4-7 talking about the siege of Jerusalem. The 6th seal talks about people running to the hills just as Jesus told his disciples to do when the saw the city surrounded by armies and also mentioned in Ezekiel talking about by the siege of Jerusalem. Ezekiel 7:16 CSB - The survivors among them will escape and live on the mountains. Like doves of the valley, all of them will moan, each over his own iniquity.
The destruction of Jerusalem and her temple in 70AD is the key to unlocking the holy scriptures in all their glory.... Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 all refer to this horrific event which has nothing to do with the modern day state of Israel and everything to do with biblical Israel in the first century.....Jesus said that generation would not pass away until all these things were fulfilled and He was spot on of course.. God bless you in your quest for truth.
Ma Shel’s, Jesus taught about his second coming in Matt 24:29-31 in plain language, but the Rapture mystery was not revealed in plain language until Paul, so Jesus could not have been talking about that here. And since this isn’t about the Rapture, it disproves post-trib.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 I disagree, but it will be a wait-&-see. "Let God be true and every man a liar". No matter what any of us expect, it will be what it will be and when HE decides.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 Jesus spoke of it way before Paul. The prophets of old spoke of it. Paul tried to explain it, but the theologians took it another direction. How many times in the Bible does it mention that tribulations come for believers, to strengthen and refine them, to get rid of the dross. We USA-ers have had it fairly easy and have become lax in our thinking, trying to make faith a 'happy' experience as per worldly thinking. Jesus said "Don't think it strange that these fiery trials come upon you to test and refine you." The world, during the Great Tribulation will be basically partying, at least between earthly wars and catastrophes. Most are so caught up in themselves that they don't care that bad has happened 'somewhere else' as long as it doesn't happen to them. Peoples in other countries have and still suffer outrageous atrocities while we in the U.S. keep worrying about a new car and painted fingernails and rarely even talk to a neighbor, except to complain. When God declares "Enough!!" it won't matter what any of us think. BUT those that have taught wrong will be held accountable. I'd rather be the virgin with too much oil than the one without enough.
@@breathofhome6315, Jesus was the first person in the Bible to understand the Rapture mystery, but he only talked about it using the veiled language of things like parables and metaphors because it remained a hidden mystery before Paul. That’s the key to understanding when Jesus may have been talking about the Rapture, and when he could not have been. Claims that belief in the Rapture escape is found in soft Christians (especially Americans) is falsified by church history. The Roman Catholic Church was established on false doctrines, including a false Eschatology that said the kingdom is now and their leadership are ruling the world for Christ until the end of time. Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches that broke away from Rome maintained that same basic erroneous doctrine. However, Englishmen fought for more religious liberty and rebelled against their leaders by spreading Bibles as broadly as possible, and they believed what the Holy Spirit taught them in God’s word rather than what leaders were forcing everyone else to believe across Christendom. (And life was anything but easy in the 1600s.) Maps that show the degree to which the Rapture doctrine spread are maps that show the degree to which religious liberty spread. By the way, Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to bolster faith in the Rapture escape in a church that was suffering severe persecution, which is the opposite of what post-trib teachers claim we should say to such people.
Didn't know you had him on here. Kurschner is simply on of the best exegetical theologians on Revelation. He has led me to believe that the rapture occurs at the sixth seal.
There is no LAST TRUMPET at the 6th Seal. You have been led to be decieved: *1 Cor.15:51-52* **@the LAST Trumpet** 1 Thess.4:16 *"VOICE** of an Archangel and the TRUMPET of God. Rev.1:10 *"loud *VOICE** as of a TRUMPET" *Rev.4:1 *"VOICE** like a Trumpet" *Rev.10:7* "But in the days of **THE VOICE** of the Seventh Angel when he is about to sound, ****THE MYSTERY**** of God would be FINISHED as He declared to His servants, the Prophets." The 2 Witnesses are PROPHETS and are Resurrected and Called Up and ***REWARDED*** *@the *LAST** *Trumpet:* **Rev.11:*12-*18-19**
@@graysonbr *1 Cor.15:51-52* **@the LAST Trumpet** 1 Thess.4:16 *"VOICE** of an Archangel and the TRUMPET of God. Rev.1:10 *"loud *VOICE** as of a TRUMPET" *Rev.4:1 *"VOICE** like a Trumpet" *Rev.10:7* "But in the days of **THE VOICE** of the Seventh Angel when he is about to sound, ****THE MYSTERY**** of God would be FINISHED as He declared to His servants, the Prophets." The 2 Witnesses are PROPHETS and are Resurrected and Called Up and ***REWARDED*** *@the *LAST** *Trumpet:* **Rev.11:*12-*18-19**
@@graysonbr 🙄...no I pass on your doctrines of men, I'll stick with these: *1 Cor.15:51-52* **@the LAST Trumpet** 1 Thess.4:16 *"VOICE** of an Archangel and the TRUMPET of God. Rev.1:10 *"loud *VOICE** as of a TRUMPET" *Rev.4:1 *"VOICE** like a Trumpet" *Rev.10:7* "But in the days of **THE VOICE** of the Seventh Angel when he is about to sound, ****THE MYSTERY**** of God would be FINISHED as He declared to His servants, the Prophets." The 2 Witnesses are PROPHETS and are Resurrected and Called Up and ***REWARDED*** *@the *LAST** *Trumpet:* **Rev.11:*12-*18-19**
Christ came in judgement to the first century covenant breakers in 70AD, just as He promised His disciples... You quoted two verses from Matt and Mark where Jesus was talking to the High Priest and the Sanhedrin, using OT apocalyptic language to describe His coming in judgement.. the High Priest was freaked out and tore his clothes as he knew exactly what our Lord and Saviour meant. These scriptures are fulfilled bro.. God bless you in your quest for truth.
The apostle Paul said we leave by rank and order. We will leave in companies like a military procession out of here, in an orderly fashion through the open door. God sees his children as crops that need to be harvested. He also sees us as lights for his glory. There are 3 major crops: Barley, wheat, and grapes. Barley and wheat crops are the church. They are both planted at the same time, in the autumn. The barley matures faster than the wheat. The barley bride is harvested (departs) at pretrib at springtime. God has set times for these harvests. You can not be harvested until your ready! Barley is winnowed by the wind. Have you ever heard of pearl barley? That pearl of great price! She leaves in Rev 4 when she hears the voice as of a trumpet that says, "COME UP HERE!" SHE IS CAUGHT UP DIRECTLY TO THRONE ROOM! This is where she will be jointly ruling and reigning with her bridegroom. If there is a last trump, there is a first trump! As written in Songs of Solomon you will see what the other daughters are saying when they see the bride leave. These daughters are virgins...meaning they are saved believers. These daughters will cry aloud, "Return, Return oh Shulamite so we may look upon thee!" Why did they yearn to look at her? Christ was fully manifested in her and it was like seeing Christ shining from her face....that shekinah glory! The wheat is harvested on the threshing floor by a heavy wooden board with pegs called a tribullum. Tribullum is derived from the word tribulation. Wheat is sifted not winnowed. This is the great multitude that we will see in heaven in Rev 7. Christ was seen wiping the tears from their faces.They aren't given crowns and not seated in the midst of the throne. They are holding palm branches and are standing before the throne. The grapes are the 144,000 full overcomers of Israel caught up at midtrib, then The Time of Jacob's Trouble begins. There are 3 light companies: Sun glory saints, moon glory saints, and star glory saints.These companies coincide with the crops. Meditate on these things! Sun glory saints are still present while it is daytime and those saints are removed right before the night season of tribulation begins. Then the darkness of Tribulation is upon this world but, we have 2 other light companies that rule the night. The moon and the stars!!!! These lights hold back the forces of evil on this earth till they are caught up out of here by rank and order as the apostle Paul told us. When those lights leave God's wrath is poured out on this earth and gross darkness is here.
Find pre-trib in the first, oh, 16 or so centuries of church consistent teaching, no matter which branch (East Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, etc)
@@mirtikaschultz3282 Why even do that when we can simply go Straight to Scripture! FIND where any Man of God in Scripture says to any Disciple that the Promised COMING of Jesus is BEFORE the Tribulation???? There is No Man of God that taught such a false Teaching! Jesus the Son of God made it 100% Clear that His COMING is only in the Days AFTER the Tribulation has ended and Jesus made it 100% Clear to Not Follow after and NOT Believe anyone that says Jesus is COMING before His Promised Post Trib COMING! Even Paul said to those in the Church to NOT believe anyones letters or anyones words or any spirits if they come saying Different to Paul! Paul said to the Church that Jesus is NOT COMING to GATHER us to Himself UNTIL that Son of Perdition is Revealed and does as is Prophesied and then when those Prophecies are fulfilled then Jesus will be COMING and He will gather us Together to Himself and Destroy that Son of Perdition! Jesus Teaches the Church this Exact same Truth as we Read in Revelation 19 and 20!
@@RaptureofSaints Pre Wrath doesn't say Jesus come before the tribulation. It says he comes on the clouds (not to earth) and cuts the tribulation short and then the Day of the Lord, which includes Gods wrath, begins. When we don't know. Its some time after the antichrist is revealed.
@@genebaker6964 Hello Gene, I am well aware of what the So called "Pre Wrath Doctrine teaches" The Pre Wrath Doctrine Teaches that Jesus ONLY comes at the 6th Seal and that all of the Trumpets and all of the Bowls take place AFTER the Coming of Jesus in the 6th Seal! They Teach that the Trumpets and Bowls ALL happen AFTER the First RESURRECTION! They Teach that all of the Trumpets and Bowls take place AFTER the Tribulation has ended! That is Incorrect as what we read in the Trumpets and Bowls are what is taking place During the Tribulation and also of the ORGE that only takes place at Christs COMING! There are Many Many FLAWS with this Pre Trumpet pre Bowls Fable! The Post Tribulation Doctrine that Jesus and Paul Taught is the True Doctrine that Declares that Jesus comes and that the ORGE of Jesus ONLY begins at His COMING when the First Resurrection takes place when Satan is Bound!
If youre gonna poke holes in post-trib (which you should- put it all to the test) represent the argument correctly. The 144k are NOT "symbolic". They don't need to be. Christians are ALREADY sealed.
Pre Wrath makes the most sense. Just read Matt 24 and you see the tribulation, then the signs of Jesus arrival on the clouds and then the rapture. Read Matt 24 for yourself NOT what others say it means. Pre Trib just make no sense. When did Jesus or the apostles ever promise us a rose garden here on earth? You can find many versus where they promise believers tribulation.
@@genebaker6964 I will answer the Question! The Truth is that the Post Tribulation Doctrine that Jesus Taught is the True Doctrine! Jesus makes it Clear 100% that we His Seed must remain on the earth with the Tares of Satan UNTIL the End of the Age! Jesus said that the Harvest of His Seed IS the End of the Age! Jesus said Clearly that at the Time of Him COMING and the Harvesting of His Seed He gathers together the tares and Brings Judgment! The same as Noah and the same as Lot when we see that the Day of Salvation is also the day of Judgment! Jesus makes it Clear that all that God has Given to Him He will Raise Up to Himself at the Last Day! What Scripture says is that Jesus MUST remain in Heaven seated at the Right Hand of the Father UNTIl all of His Enemies become His Footstool! We KNOW that at Christs COMING when the FIRST RESURRECTION takes place Satan is Bound! Yes! Satan is Bound! We KNOW that at Christs COMING when Satan is Bound that Son of Perdition is Destroyed because Paul Tells us that Jesus is NOT COMING to Gather us Together to Himself UNTIL the Son of Perdition is Revealed and then Paul says that when that Son of Perdition does what is Prophesied and is Revealed as being that Son of Perdition THEN Jesus will be COMING and will destroy that Son of Perdition when Jesus Gathers us to Himself! We all KNOW that the Son of Perdition is Appointed and is Permitted to have Authority by God and Power by satan to Persecute the Saints for 42 Months! We KNOW that the Tribulation is 42 Months! We KNOW that the Two Witnesses have authority for 42 Months! We know that the Gentiles trample Jerusalem for 42 Months! ONLY when that 42 Months is Fulfilled will the Cut Off Point of the Tribulation be Reached and that Tribulation will end! We know that ate Christs COMING when Satan is Bound and the First RESURRECTION takes place that there are many Gathered Together at Armigeddo and they SEE Jesus COMING and they KNOW that the Day of His ORGE is about to take place BECAUSE we read of them Crying out! They will be saying That the Day of Christs ORGE is about to take place and they will be saying "Who is able to stand!" and they will be Crying out to the Mountains to fall on them as the Day of Christs ORGE is come! It is 100% True that we are NOT appointed to that day of ORGE but will Obtain Salvation whether we are alive or have died we will LIVE TOGETHER with Jesus in that FIRST RESURRECTION when Satan is Bound and the Day of His ORGE begins!!! Post Tribulation COMING of Jesus is before He Tramples the Wine Press of His ORGE!!!! Read Zechariah 14! Read Isiah! Read Joel! Read ALL of Revelation!
@@whodeytko The Pre Trumpet and Pre Bowl COMING of Jesus is 100% Wrong and is never Taught by any Apostle in Scripture! Read what Jesus is saying in the Trumpets and Bowls! Look at the Promise that Jesus gives to all Believers during the Trumpets and Bowls! If the Tribulation has ended and is OVER at the 6th Seal that means that everything mentioned in Revelation AFTER the 6th Seal CANNOT relate to the Tribulation in any way because the Tribulation is Over and the Sun is Darkened and the Moon is Red and the Powers of Heaven are shaken and the Stars are falling from Heaven and the Mountains and Islands are moved out of their place! The Truth is that the Climax of the Seals and the Trumpets and Bowls is when the ORGE of Jesus begins just as we Read in Revelation 19 and 20! The Truth is that Jesus is ONLY coming at the Climax of the Seals and the Trumpets and the Bowls which is the Same Event spoken of in Revelation 19 and 20 when the First RESURRECTION takes place and when Satan is bound!
The Truth is that Jesus does NOT say that He is Changing the Length of the Tribulation from 1260 days to 900 Days! The Truth is that the Word of God does NOT say that the Little Horn ONLY has power to shatter Gods Holy People for 900 days instead of the 1260 Days! No! Scripture Declares Clearly as per the 70th Week of Prophecy that the Time of Tribulation is Exactly 1260 days and then that Tribulation ENDS! Scripture declares that the Beast ONLY has Power to Shatter Gods Holy People for 1260 Days and then that Authority is NO LONGER Granted by God! Scripture Declares that Satan Empowers that Evil man for 1260 Days NOT this False 900 Days that is Taught be pre Trumpets teachers! Scriptures Declare that the Two Witnesses are Declaring for the Same Time that the Son of Perdition is declaring for the same time that the Tribulation lasts and for the same time that Jerusalem is being Trampled down! The Truth is that Jesus did NOT say that He was Changing the Tribulation from 1260 days to 900 days BUT that Jesus said that the Tribulation has a Clear Cut Off Point for the simple reason that if it did NOT have a Clear Cut off point and it continued then no flesh would be saved!!! Let us NOT Twist the Words of Jesus and say that Jesus said that He was Changing the Length of the Tribulation from 1260 days to 900 Days as that is a LIE and is Totally 100% UnBiblical and NOT Taught by any Apostle nor Prophet! the 70th Week Prophecy of Daniel is Precise and Clearly Declares that the Time of Trouble is exactly 1260 days Just as we Read in Revelation! That Son of Perdition has Power and Authority for the FULL 1260 Days to Shatter Gods Holy People and IT DOES not end at some False 900 Day Fable! Let us Come Back to Scripture! Jesus said that we are Blessed and Holy when we Partake in the First Resurrection which we all know happens at Christs COMING when Satan is Bound! That is what Jesus Declared!
Part 1/4 I am not here to attack Dr. Alan simply to add my expertise to the conversation. In fact, I would love to debate someone like him with the amount of expertise he has on the topic. But...Oh boy. Where do I begin? Lol! I'm 5 minutes in and I have enough material to write a book unraveling this topic. The issue is that there doesn't seem to be a clear understanding of the terms used. Hopefully, my comments can clear some of it up. I admit that this is an extensive topic with a wide-ranging amount of subjects woven into it so it's easy to get confused and make mistakes. I have studied this topic for the last 30 years and have over 1000 hours of biblical study on it. I don't say this to brag but to share my credentials since this is the internet and everyone has an opinion. It also doesn't mean I'm right but what I can do is clear up some of the confusion and clearly define terms so that at least we can discuss further on a more solid footing. The first place we need to begin when discussing this topic is that God will unfold the future 1 Way, His Way. So if we have multiple ideas and theories then the maximum that will turn out to be right is 1. In my opinion, there is not 1 modern view on this topic I have heard in 30 years that's correct. I will show that the Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath views aren't it (Part 2). You see after 2000 years Christians particularly Western American Christians have forgotten who God used to write His Word. It wasn't 21st Century Americans it was the Jewish people (except for Luke). We say we understand that fact but the more I listen to teachers today the less I see of it. Eschatology (the study of the end times) is part of a greater topic of Bible prophecy. Which is the very essence of God's Word. Form Genesis 3 when God told the Serpent that his destruction would come from the seed of the woman to the promise to Noah that the flood would come to the promise to Abraham that he and his barren wife would be the father of nations, to Moses, to David, to Jesus. God foretells the future in advance over and over again from Genesis to Revelation to show the people of the world HE is the Great I AM. That He is the author of history from the beginning to the end. Bible prophecy isn't just a topic, it's the heart of God. God lets us know how He thinks, and why He does what He does. When we understand it we see what His desires are and how He works all things for good. Bible prophecy is the Gospel and Eschatology is the completion of God's Plan of salvation. What He began in Genesis He will complete in Revelation. And it can only be completed 1 way. So it's best to assume whatever view you hold is wrong rather than right. The second thing we must understand is that reality corrects our doctrine, not the other way around. We can believe whatever we think is correct until reality debunks it. Then we must humble ourselves and seek a clearer understanding. Many Christians are afraid of this. I think it's because if we admit we were wrong that we feel we discredit God or His Word. God cannot be diminished by our flaws and errors. We're 2000 years removed from Jesus walking on the earth reading text written by people who not only lived in a totally different time period but a different world as well and a totally different culture with a deep history with God. We're going to be wrong about a lot of things we think are true. We need to accept that. Here's where I usually begin with this topic. In Leviticus 25:23 God says 23 ‘The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with Me." The word "sojourn" means a visitor or temporary guest. God says the Promised Land of Israel (verses 1-2) is His alone and that the Jewish people (but all people in general) have no ownership or land rights to sell or bargain with the land. In 2 Chronicles 6:5-6 God says 5 ‘Since the day that I brought My people out of the land of Egypt, I have chosen no city from any tribe of Israel in which to build a house, that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man to be a ruler over My people Israel. 6 Yet I have chosen Jerusalem, that My name may be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.’ He declares Jerusalem as His City with His name on it. So let me ask you a question "when did God relinquish He claim on the Land of Israel and the City of Jerusalem? The answer is never. So whatever your view of the Jewish people are the biblical reality is that the land and city are His alone, so the question is why has He allowed the Jewish people back into His Land and City after 1800+ years and prospered them to become the 8th superpower in the world? What changed? If we ask better questions we begin to see the heart of God. In Romans 11:1-2 Paul writes (Post Resurrection) I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Verses 25-27 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” Daniel 9:24 tells us the same that one day the Jewish people will be saved through Jesus the Messiah. Ezekiel 36:21 says 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again." Never in Israel's history since Ezekiel penned this has the nation not been divided. Yet God says one day it will be united never to be divided again. Jeremiah 24:6 says God will bring the Jewish people back to the land and not pluck them out again. We know in 135AD God plucked them out of the land and dispersed them. Then in 1948, He allowed them to come back into the Land and so far they haven't been plucked out again. The point is if your Eschatology doesn't include the salvation of the Jewish people through Jesus then you'll never understand the topic. In Part 2 I will debunk every modern-day view to get at the truth. Hopefully, it helps you in your studies. (Continued in Part 2)
Eschatologically-we ought call the correct sequence/timing of the Harpazo-the “LAST Trumpet” Harpazo (rapture) position... As this term LAST TRUMPET is identified for us by Paul in Scripture. Whereas, PreTrib, Mid Trib, Post Trib, and PreWrath are far more ambiguous terms of arbitrary conceptualization assigned as labels by men...
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 - coming to this verse completely shifted my view of the rapture. Paul also refers to the Lord's trumpet in other verses, but in this verse it specifically says the final trumpet.
@@erichaavisto7802 If we follow the mystery of the Episunagoge (THE GATHERING TOGETHER)=First Resurrection followed by the Harpazo-Scripture gives us the right sequence... A) “Behold, I tell you a MYSTERY: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” I Corinthians 15:51-52 NKJV B) “having made known to us the MYSTERY of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might GATHER TOGETHER in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him.” Ephesians 1:9-10 NKJV C) “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless 1) the falling away comes first, and 2) the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,” II Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV D) ““Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,... (ALL AT THE 6th Seal)=Thief in the Night Moment. Sky recedes like a scroll (dimensional portal opens) and people on earth see Christ at the throne. Jesus Christ has now appeared and every eye sees Him... Those who dwell on the earth (followers of the beast kingdom try to hide) SEE Also 1 Thes 5-Thief in the night does not overtake or surprise Christians because they are WATCHING=knowing the sequence of SIGNS IE: Abomination of desolation-WHEN YOU SEE-and 6th Seal Cosmic Signs in particular... The next verse of Matt 24 is not instantaneous. It’s a condensed version of Christ’s actions where the next action is (AT the 7th Trumpet) ...And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV E) Same sequence in Mark 13 with GATHERING TOGETHER F) Luke 21 though omits the GATHERING TOGETHER verse and instead tells US TO LOOK UP for our redemption draws near... G) “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” I Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV Mystery Continued- G) “but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.” Revelation 10:7 NKJV H) First Resurrection corresponds to the Resurrection of Christ’s two witnesses slain by antichrist as his last real act of power. 42 months of absolute authority is up. Note: Great Tribulation against the saints is cut short by the 6th Seal but 42 months of antichrist reign goes to the 7th Trumpet. Beast kingdom goes into survival mode during the Trumpets stage... No longer focused on murdering the saints.Number of the martyrs from 5th Seal is reached by the great multitude in Rev 7:9 and following. Fullness of the gentiles has come into Israel and all remnant Israel is saved. First Resurrection has not happened-yet. Further note: Window between First Resurrection and Rapture is 45 days as revealed in Daniel 12. ““And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. ***Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.” Daniel 12:11-12 NKJV 30 days to set up image of the beast to begin great Tribulation mark of the beast and image worship and 1,260 days=42 months 1,335 days minus 1,290 days=45 days. I) What happens at the 7th Trumpet? Many things... “Then the seventh angel sounded: 1) Christ is announced He’s taking full possession of the earth to set up His Millennial Reign for 1,000 years which then reaches White Throne Judgment (2nd Death) and then New Heavens and New earth with New Jerusalem bride into eternity. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, 2) Jesus is now coming The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. Where the 7 Trumpets each announce and progress Christ’s power and authority on earth culminating at the 7th Trumpet, The 7 Bowls decimate the beast Kingdom... 3) Wrath of God begins with the 7 Bowls of the Wrath of God •The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, 4) The dead in Christ are righteously judged in Christ and rewarded/raised at the First Resurrection. •And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, 5) The antichrist kingdom is going to be obliterated. •And should destroy those who destroy the earth.” 6) God prominently displays the Ark of the Covenant with Christ’s shed blood as our great High Priest on the mercy seat which signifies God’s eternal promise for our redemption and eternal life in Christ-for our Resurrection bodies... Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. 7) Seven Thunders unsealed? And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.” Revelation 11:15-19 NKJV
Any time someone comes up with a "new" Biblical concept, be wary. God doesn't keep us ignorant for hundreds of years for some guy to come up with something never heard of. That's how we got Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. They thought they would fix the text for us. I'm not saying it's to that degree, but he's taken an old teaching (post-trib) and put a new spin on it. Stick to what the apostles taught, exactly as they're stated. Any adding, subtracting, splitting, changing of the Word is frowned upon by God. (Prov.30:5-6; Ecc.12:11-12; I Cor.4:6; Rev.22:18-19)
I wonder if when these things start happening- if people will fall away then -believing there would have been a rapture before the tribulation. And then being angry- not knowing Gods word- and only wanting their ears tickled just decide to take the mark. If you haven’t ever fasted, you can’t imagine what it feels like 11 days and beyond not having food. Stand firm.
Pre wrath make the most sense to me. Tho Dr Michael Brown recently comment that teachings that separate rapture and 2nd coming is on the way out cuz that logically wud make it 3 comings of Christ. In the end it revelations wud be debate between pre wrath and post trib. If possible make the it as series of debates/discussions that wud clarify the many presuppositions held by post tribs believers once it is certain pre trib is dead. God bless yall bros.
“The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). Christian journalist Dave MacPherson has written a book on the subject of the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture. He writes: “We have seen that a young Scottish lassie named Margaret Macdonald had a private revelation in Port Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830 that a select group of Christians would be caught up to meet Christ in the air before the days of Antichrist.”
When Jesus was taken up, how much time did it take? Some scripture are literal, some are metaphor, types, etc. The Holy Spirit will teach you, not man!!
I don't see why we would need to be raptured before God's wrath. I mean, why can't he protect his church during such an event? Is that too hard for him? What about promises like those in Psalm 91??
He is closer of the different end times teachers, but not quite there. I agree in a 3/4 rapture, but before the bowls. Many scriptures say before the final trumpet. In Rev just after the 6th trumpet a mighty angel comes in the clouds and then in further description before the bowls, an angel reaps the harvest with a sickle. That is the rapture, the gathering!
This guy is kinda hard to listen to. He is all over the place, but love the different views. I personally believe the rapture happens at the 2nd coming after the Great Tribulation, but b4 God's Wrath. However, I still love listening to the other views.
▪ According to the Christian bible, The devil comes down first claiming to be jesus/God and deceiving many. The 'rapture' is a completely false teaching within the Christian community. People pushing it are either being disingenuous, or lazy af. ⬛
@@2NDFLB Sure the word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible but the concept of the rapture is. However, the idea of a secret rapture where Christians are raptured b4 Tribulation and just disappear is not Biblical at all. The Bible is clear. Jesus promised us persecution/tribulation, and he specifically said after the Tribulaton he will gather his elect from the 4 corners of the world. Matthew 24: 29-31 29)“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30)Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31)And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will GATHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Thesalonian 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. For many more references: www.openbible.info/topics/the_rapture
@@LivingWateraide ▪ Yeaaa,,,, but now you're taking this verse and that verse my guy. Says in the book not to do that. Says to read it chapter by chapter, verse by verse. ⬛
@@2NDFLB if you want I can post the whole chapter so you can see the context. Most ppl just wouldn't read a whole chapter comment lol. Regardless, the concept is there but I do agree tht the modern view of the rapture is soooo unbiblical. Take a look at some of the early church fathers views on the matter. It's pretty interesting how different they viewed it than we do now. Irenaeus was disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John himself. He was considered one of(if not) the 1st Christian apologists. Tertullian was also a disciple of Polycarp as well. It's crazy how vastly different they viewed things from the Vatican today or from popular Christian American teachings.
I used to believe that way but God can pour out His wrath without affecting His people. I am 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath and 7th seal which is the same event.
ahhahahahahaha. That is true, but I will tell you that there are a very few here on earth right now that would make the hottest Christians look luke warm.
Just a question about the 2 witnesses, when will they start prophesying? 1st half or 2nd half, if 2nd half then they will be left out during the rapture that will take place anytime after the AC is revealed . Is this a pre-wrath belief?
Part 2/4 Again I apologize that I will most likely not watch this video in its entirety because the first 5 minutes have enough material for me to type a response. As much as I appreciate the effort to discuss the topic to me it does more damage being wrong than being silent. Since this is a pre-millennialism perspective video I won't spend time debunking Preterism, or Post-Millennialism. Just so I'm clear on my position, I am a Believer in Jesus Christ and I hold a pre-millennialism view. However, every sub-view, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib is deeply flawed and so I am here to put aside the terms and simply dissect the Bible. Before I get into this I must warn you that you will most likely be offended. I tend to offend a lot of people regardless of their eschatological views. First, let's define some terms. I would describe Eschatology this way. Think about this topic of the end times (Eschatology) as a sub-topic to the greater topic of Bible prophecy. There are basically 3 main worldviews within Eschatology. Preterism believes that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled by 70AD. The destruction of the Jewish Temple. Post-millennialism. Which believes that we are in the millennial reign of Jesus now since He reigns from Heaven and that most of the world is going to be saved via the church (kingdom creation) to prepare the earth for His return. (Amillennialism is similar but doesn't require humanity to be saved before Jesus returns.) Premillennialism which believes just as it sounds pre (before) the millennial reign of Jesus. That between Jesus's resurrection and ascension to His return is the Church Age and then Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom on earth and reigns for 1000 years. There are subgroups to pre-millennialism -Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib. Each of these basically centers around when the Rapture will happen in relation to a time period called the 7-year tribulation. I know confusing right? Well, we are humans after all we like to complicate things, especially biblical things. It makes us feel good about ourselves if we can understand the "deeper" things of the Bible. So what I am not going to do is deal with each view individually. What I will do is get us to ask better questions and alter our perspective so we might see clearer. There are many terms that are used in this topic and the ones I head in the first few minutes are Rapture, Tribulation, Great tribulation, Antichrist, Day of the LORD, and others. I have heard many people over the years say that certain views are only a couple of hundred years old. I have heard people say there is no Rapture because the English word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible or they confuse it with 2 comings of Jesus. We have documents that show early Church fathers believed certain things. It doesn't make them more right, it just means that some of what we are trying to understand isn't a couple of hundred years old. Church father Irenaeus wrote in the mid-second century. He was taught under Polycarp, the disciple of the Apostle John, and occasionally saw the Apostle, John. Irenaeus wrote a five-volume work entitled “Against Heresies” against the cults of his day. “When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, then it is said, ‘There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be.’” Irenaeus “Against Heresies 5.29 Another excerpt is Ephraim 373 AD “…because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to commence be taken to the LORD…” On the Last Times 2-Ephraim the Syrian 373 AD (excerpts from Ken Johnson's book "The Rapture" -who is an expert on early church doctrine and ancient documents including the Dead Sea scrolls. What I am going to do is provide you with biblical references and then connect them to a train of thought. Is there a Rapture? The term Rapture is an English term that is based on the Greek word Harpazo. Harpazo means to violently snatch away to oneself. I picture a parent snatching up their child from the street in the nick of time as a car approaches. In the Greek, the Bible has many instances of the word Harpazo. But it's the concept I want to focus on. Jesus in John 14:1-6 says “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.” 5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Here Jesus is talking about Heaven (His Father's house) and going in advance to prepare a place for us, so that one day He will come to take us to this place prepared in His Father's House (Heaven). It's for those who believe in Him as the ONLY Way there. Now what's interesting is Jesus says "3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself;..." This isn't death where our souls go to be with the LORD. This is a 1-time event where Jesus comes to receive us to Himself. Now the Post-trib view believes that when Jesus returns as He's coming from Heaven we fly up and are transformed and then immediately return with Him. Except Zechariah 14 tells us of Jesus's return. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,...9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-“The Lord is one,” And His name one. ...16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain." So Jesus returns to reign on earth not in Heaven so when in the prophetic timeline does Jesus come to receive us to Himself to take us to the place He's prepared in Heaven? It can't be at His 2nd Coming because He comes down and doesn't return to Heaven but reigns on earth. Now let's talk about this 7-year period. First. I think a major flaw is that there is no such thing as a 7 year Tribulation. There is a 7 year period and a "great tribulation". But don't take my word for it. First, where does this 7-year period come from? Daniel 9:24-27. Verse 24 says “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, (Daniel's people are the Jews and Daniel's holy city is Jerusalem. This is the context). To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, (the only way to achieve these things is through Jesus alone). So this 70 weeks, its purpose is to bring the Jewish people to salvation through Jesus and prepare Jerusalem (as we saw in Zechairah 14) To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy." Verses 25-26 tell us that from the "That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; (7+62=69 weeks not 70) If we study this out from history the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was in 445BC. Nehemiah 2 and multiple sources confirm it. So clearly the Messiah (Jesus) didn't come 69 literal weeks (483 days) later in 444BC. So when we study it out we see that each day is 1 year. and 7 years is 1 week and 7 years x 7 weeks is 49 years and 70 weeks is 490 years. Using a Hebrew lunar calendar of 360 days per year we know the time Jesus was crucified and it matches up. We just have to study it out. The point is that from the command to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the Prince (Jesus) is 69 weeks, not 70. We know that the last "week" is 7 years. We also see in Revelation 11:3 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” (using a Hebrew lunar calendar 1,260 days is exactly 3.5 years) Rev 11:5 tells us these 2 witnesses are invincible, unable to be killed. Until verse 7. 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. So these 2 witnesses show up and preach for 3.5 years (1,260 days) and then this "beast" rises and kills them. Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Revelation 13:4-5 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 42 months = 3.5 years. 3.5 years the 2 witnesses preach then the beast rises and kills them and then is given authority by the Dragon (Satan Rev 12:9) for 3.5 years (42 months) here is the 7 years beginning in Revelation 11. Hopefully, this is helping paint a clearer picture. If you can be a little more patient I will need a part 3 but I hope it'll blow the doors wide open on this topic. (Continued in Part 3)
@@andrealmoseley6575 Thanks for your comment. The Bible actually separates the 70th week from all the rest. Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. We see the first 69 weeks ends with the Messiah the Prince being "cut off" or suffering the death penalty. God says that after 70 weeks the result will be that Daniel's people the Jews and his holy city Jerusalem will accomplish these things: " To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,To bring in everlasting righteousness,..." The ONLY way to make these things happen is through Jesus. Paul reiterates this in Romans 11:25-27 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” So we see 2 problems if the 70th week is a continuous period. 1 God says the Jewish people will be saved at the end of the 70th week. That has never happened. And 2 that the salvation of the Jewish people comes at the "fullness of the Gentiles" When you study the phrase out it can also be translated as "completion of the Gentiles". or the NLT says: 25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,..." So as you can see Israel and the 70th week will be fulfilled after the full number of Gentiles comes to salvation. Then God will save Israel. Hopefully, this helps a bit. There are other aspects that can be examined let me know if this was useful. The issue I think most people have with this topic is first is that we need to understand why. Why does God do all of this? What's the goal? And how each event leads into the next. Once you understand that I think the picture becomes a bit clearer. Take care.
There is a distinct problem with the pre-wrath position which is completely ignored, just as pre-tribbers ignore many problems with their view. Pre-wrath has the great tribulation cut short by the Lord's return somewhere in the middle of the second half of Daniel's week. That cannot be. The antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming, correct? That means that Lord cannot return until the 42 months of the antichrist's reign is over, because to do so would be the destruction of the antichrist too early. 2 Thess. 2:8 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.” The great tribulation is not cut short by the Lord's coming but is cut short by the events of the sixth seal and the trumpets. People are terrified and killing Christians will fall by the wayside as they try to save themselves. Those people on the sea of glass who come out of the great tribuation (seen after the sixth seal) are those who overcame the antichrist by their death not by the rapture. Rev. 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” They have robes, because you aren't naked in heaven, but they have not been judged and rewarded yet. That comes later.The great tribulation is the worst holocaust in the history of the world. Who exactly do you think is dying? Those who take the mark? No, they die in the wrath of God later. You'll see the raptured saints who have victory over the beast (vs. overcoming him by their death) on the sea of glass in chapter 15, after the Second Coming in chapter 14. Nor does the resurrection/rapture occur at the end of the wrath of God in the bowls, at Armageddon. We are not appointed to wrath. Why not look where Paul in his prophetic writings told us right where it is. At the last (seventh) trumpet, Rev. 11:15-19. Look at what occurs in that passage. First, Christ has begun His reign, so that means it is the end of the 42 months of the antichrist's reign. Therefore it is His Second Coming (which is not seen in detail until after the interlude chapters of 12-14:13 finish what God tells us there). We then have the narrative picked up again from Rev. 11:19 to Rev. 14:14 where we see the actual Second Coming and gathering of the saints. Which is then immediately followed by the wrath of God, which is announced numerous times from 14:17 - chapter 16 as having just come). Second, we see it is time for the dead (wait, if they are already resurrected, they are no longer dead right? So they are about to be resurrected) to be judged and rewarded (this is the Bema Seat Judgment, for we know the White Throne Judgment of the wicked dead comes after the millennium). That judgment begins after the resurrection, to prepare the saints for the marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-8). Third, we see the first announcement by heaven that the wrath of God has come. In the sixth seal, the people on earth are crying out that the celestial signs mean that God's wrath has come, but people yell that every time there is a cataclysmic event of nature. It requires heaven announcing it for it to begin. It is not announced until the last trumpet in Rev. 11 and is continued from 14:17 through chapter 16. And finally, we see the temple of heaven opened up for the first time in Rev. 11:19 so John can see the ark of the testimony. Notice that in chapter 15 it again mentions that the temple has been opened so John can see the ark. That verifies the picking up of the narrative from chapter 11 after the “in the meanwhile” info in chapters 12-13 and the first part of 14 occur. Then there is the problem, is not the church one of the mysteries of God? Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Another mystery is that the blindness of Israel is lifted when the fulness of the Gentiles (the Church) comes in. Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” But when does the fulness of the Gentiles come in? Luke 21:22-24 “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles (fulness of the Geniles) be fulfilled.” Well, it comes in sometime after Jerusalem has been trodden down by the Gentiles after the abomination of desolation. That treading down of Jerusalem continues until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled aka the fulness of the Gentiles or the end of the Church age. So Israel's blindness will not be lifted until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in (the end of the Church age) which continues until the treading down of Jerusalem after the abomination has come to an end. So when does it end? How long will that treading down continue? Rev. 11:1-2 “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” So the treading down of Jerusalem and the temple continues for forty-two months after the abomination. That takes us to the end of Daniel's 70th week, when we know antichrist's reign comes to an end, with the brightness of Christ's coming. So are there verses that tell us that the Church ends then? That Israel's blindness is lifted then? Yes, there are. Rev. 10:7 “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (7th trumpet), when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” (End of the Church age and time for Israel's blindness to be lifted). Rev. 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Zech. 12:10 “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” This all occurs at the Second Coming when every eye sees Him. Daniel 12 tells us that from the abomination until it all comes to an end (the end of God's wrath) there are not 1260 days (42 months, 3 ½ years) but 1290 days. An extra 30 days. That is when God's wrath is poured out, and the Bema Seat is taking place in New Jerusalem (a satellite city orbiting the earth which Jesus brings with Him for us to live in - Rev. 12:23-24a “And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it.” It is too big (1500 miles length, width and height) to sit on the earth, and for all the nations to walk in God's light which shines out through this crystal city, it must orbit the earth. Conclusion: The Second Coming/Resurrection/Rapture occurs at the seventh and last trumpet, right where Paul said it does.
Paul says that our change will occur in a moment, in the twinkling of eye at the last trumpet. Is it possible the resurrection and rapture occurs at the 6th seal and then our change occurs at the 7th trumpet? I've been studying Isaiah 52:10-15 and this sounds like a rapture occurring. But it says it happens slowly and without haste so that every eye can see the salvation of God. Psalm 68:24 prophecies this too. This would support the rapture doesn't occur quickly. It will be a procession which the ungodly will witness and be amazed. So, what happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet? Our change into the incorruptible? Revelation 19:8, Psalm 104:1-4.
@@seasquawker In context, I understand Is. 52 and Ps. 68 as talking about the Day of the Lord, which begins with Second Coming and His wrath and continues through the millennium. I also see this as referring to the Jews (not the Church) who are left after the rapture/resurrection to have to slowly, during God's wrath, come back to Israel from the nations they have been scattered to by the antichrist, which will be a slower procedure. I see Rev. 19 speaking of the Bema Seat where we are given the linen garments to prepare us for the marriage, but I'm not sure how you see Psalm 104:1-4 as having anything to do with the rapture. I see nothing at the sixth seal that indicates a rapture, it is merely the sign God told us would herald the coming wrath, but I do see the rapture at the gathering in Rev. 14:14-16, as I also see it in the Olivet Discourse when the Lord returns. I believe we are changed in the twinkling of an eye to our glorified bodies at the resurrection/rapture event at the Second Coming of the Lord when He pours out His wrath, as the resurrected saints get theirs then, so we should also. I explained much of this in the above comment, so I won't repeat it again here. 2 Thess 2:1-2 makes it clear that the Second Coming, the gathering, and the Day of Christ (aka Day of the Lord) are one event, and other Scriptures show they all occur at the seventh and last trumpet. You don't have to believe this, but I put it out there for folks who might question the status quo of the usual pre-trib belief, who want to research more and find a more Scripturally exegeted understanding of the whole scenario.
@conniemaew 1st Corinthians 15 talks about how just as we bore the image of the man of dust (Adam) we will also bear the image of the heavenly man (Christ). Psalm 104 says that God clothes Himself with light... and that His angels and ministers will also wear light as a garment. Jesus said that in the resurrection, we will be like the angels. Matthew 22:30, Psalm 17:15. So, our change that Paul describes in 1st Corinthians 15 seems to be talking about what we read in Psalm 104. The description of Jesus in Revelation 1:13 is the same as of His angels in Revelation 15:6. They are so much alike that John even gets confused in Revelation 22:8-9 and thinks the angel he is speaking to is God. His servants are like a flaming fire: Joel 2:1-11, Psalm 104:4, 2nd Thessalonians 1:7-8.
In a nutshell I believe the rapture of the church is in the 6th seal in the first half of verse 14 when the sky recedes as a scroll when it is rolled up. The church will see some of the very beginning of the wrath but not be affected by it; when there is a great earthquake; and the sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon becomes like blood. The stars of heaven will fall to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. The first four seals are opened on earth by the Lamb by the time Jesus cleanses the temple. I can explain all of what I just stated with scripture.
@@halfsheephalfjesus7357 I believe the disclosure of COVID was a result of the seals of the four horses having been open; but not when the seals began opening. I believe they were open during Jesus's ministry. So yes, the first five seals are open.
Question, Why do we see a Holy Place in the middle of the Daniels 70th week ? Does God dwell in a holy place at this time in Jerusalem? Something has changed... the age of law is now in place. Where as we now live in the age of grace.. certainly disproves any post trib theory
@@seasquawker God did not dwell in the temple after the curtain was torn. God does not and will not dwell in earthly tents in this dispensation age of grace.
I don't think that we're going back to the age of the law. Well, only for those who reject Christ are still under the law. The Holy Place was a Holy Place long before there was ever a temple there. Genesis 22:14. And so anyone setting themself up as god in that place would be an abomination.
@@seasquawker after the church is taken make no mistake about it, the age of law will take place, thats why Jesus said, Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) He is speaking directly to the Jews, His elect. Israel - the Jews will be going through the tribulation. God has made a covenant with His Elect
@@seasquawker Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 69 weeks have been fulfilled ... 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (7 years) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Before the cross was the age of law, 69 weeks filled one week of 7 yrs (age of law) remains.
*_There are things which must take place_* before the church rises (with immortal spiritual bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:42-54) to meet Jesus "in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:17) "at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52). We can look for those things. Here's one, mentioned by the apostle Paul: ■ "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4) Yes, the "man of sin" - the "son of perdition" - will appear before the church is taken up. This is a reference to the "beast" who will reign for 42 months (Revelation 13:5). Paul describes his reign: ■ "Even him, whose coming is after [or like] the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thessalonians 2:9). Alongside the beast will be a miracle-working "false prophet": ■ "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live." (Rev 13:13,14) (side note: "maketh fire come down from heaven" sounds similar to what the prophet Elijah did in the Old Testament (1 Kings 18, 2 Kings 1). This "false prophet" may be claiming he *_is_* Elijah, or may be claiming to have the authority of Elijah by virtue of the fact "he maketh fire come down from heaven." Lesson learned ahead of time: don't be deceived by miracles.) ======================
There are more signs to look for before the church rises to meet Jesus. We know that the church is changed to "incorruptible" at Jesus' return for His church. This change happens "at the last trump": ■ "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. "At the last trump" . . . so what about the "trumps" or trumpet-soundings *_before_* that "last trump"??? Can we look for them? Yes. That "last trump" is the seventh trumpet sounding (Revelation 11:15). These 7 trumpet soundings make up the 7th "seal" or 7th group of events (Revelation 8:1,2). (Just as 7 trumpets preceded the fall of Jericho, the last-days 7 "trumpets" precede the fall of "Babylon the Great" - this world's systems - Rev 18).
The point is this: the 6 trumpets that sound *_before_* the 7th trumpet *_all have events associated with_* *_them_* (Revelation 8:2 up to 11:15) which must take place before the 7th trumpet. We should look for those events to occur before the church is taken up. =========================== So, does the church rise before, or after, the tribulation? The church rises after the tribulation but before the wrath of God is poured out. Sadly, many make the mistake of assuming the tribulation *_is_* the wrath of God, but it is not. With four simple steps we can determine whether the "rapture" (rising to meet Jesus) takes place before, or during, or after the tribulation. 1. According to Matthew 24:29 the sun is darkened "immediately after" the tribulation: ■ "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" 2. According to Revelation 6:12 the sun is darkened at the opening of the sixth seal. ■ "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." (Revelation 6:12-14) So we know that the tribulation is over at the opening of the sixth seal, when the sun is darkened. 3. The resurrection and rapture take place "at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) . . . at the seventh of the seven trumpet soundings that comprise the *_seventh_* seal. The apostle Paul describes this in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54: ■ "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) And here is another account, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17: ■ "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17) 4. "Immediately after" the tribulation, the sixth-seal darkening of the sun and moon take place, followed by all the remaining events of the sixth seal (Revelation 6:13 through 7:17). And after that, the first six trumpets of the *seventh* seal (Revelation 8:1 through 11:14) must take place. At the sounding of the "last trump," the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the resurrection and rapture take place. Obviously, then, the resurrection and rapture are post-tribulation. Note: Many make incorrect assumptions about the tribulation, thinking it is the wrath of God, or that it is the reign of the beast. It is neither. God's wrath is poured out at the end of the reign of the beast; we know this because it is poured out "upon the men which had the mark of the beast" (Revelation 16:2). In fact, the impending wrath of God is *_announced_* as part of the 7th trumpet . . . the wrath is being announced (Revelation 11:18) even as the church is being taken up. The church obviously will not experience the wrath of God. The tribulation is not the wrath. The tribulation is over earlier, when the sun is darkened at the opening of the _sixth_ seal. So, what is the tribulation? Apparently, it's a time world war and calamity, so bad that unless it were "cut short" no one would survive (Matthew 24:21,22).
Hi I heard a pastor on here about 12mths or so ago he had written a book about this and tribulations etc and specifically allocated about 1000 copies of it for leadership and these were some of the guys he mentioned. Can you please give me his name. Cheers thank you.... Memphis
Just a question..how can belivers be persecuted for not taking the Mark of the Beast if we are removed before he is revealed?Does he demand people take the mark before He desecrates the temple which is the mid point of the tribulation?
It will be on the scene for the first 3 and 1/2 years of tribulation but, it will be forced on man during the last 3 and 1/2 years. Getting beheaded will be a way of deliverance for the men left on this earth during that time.The whole church will be in heaven by that point.
Before i believed in pre- trib view,but when i studied personally about the timing of the rapture and i want to find strong verses to support the pre-trib view but rather to proved it i find a lot of pre-trib view teaching contradicts the teaching of the bible.Before i thought there are only 3 rapture view- pre ,mid and post trib.During my personal study i come to the conclusion that the Rapture will happen After the opening of the 6th seal and Before the opening of the 7th and last seal of the scroll.All the believers will be Rapture before the wrath of God will be pour out, bec.1Thes.5:9 said that believers are not appointed to God's wrath.This verse in use by pre-trib view but their very big mistake is where in the 7 seals of the scroll God's wrath will be pour out.Rev.chapter 8 clearly said when the Wrath of God starts.
I think Luke 17:29-30 and 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 are the best verses at confirming a 6th seal rapture. Both declare a rest or departure on the day that Jesus is revealed from heaven... on the Day of Vengeance in flaming fire, which we see Isaiah 34:4-8 matches Revelation 6:12-14 exactly. So all of these are describing the same event. But before fire and brimstone can rain down, just as with the example of Lot in Genesis 19, there needs to be a departure, or rest for God's people. We see that the innumerable multitude in Revelation 7 are not only departing after the revealing of Jesus from heaven in Revelation 6:16 where the world mourns and every eye sees Him as described in Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7... but we also see that this innumerable multitude is taken out of the Great Tribulation just before fire and brimstone rains down from heaven in Revelation 8:4-7 during the first Trumpet Judgment. These verses in Luke 17:29-30 and 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 should confirm a 6th seal pre-wrath rapture. I don't see any way around it. These Thessalonians are not Jews. That's the argument we hear as an excuse for Matthew 24 not containing the rapture. They say Matthew 24 is describing the gathering of Jews from around the world after Revelation 19 and the battle of Armageddon. But these Gentile, church-age, Thessalonians are being told their rest will come on the Day of Vengeance... which Isaiah 34:4-8 confirms is the 6th seal with the same signs in sun, moon, and stars and sky receding like a scroll that we see in Revelation 6:12-14. We've got multiple confirmations. 2nd Corinthians 13:1 is satisfied. 2 or 3 witnesses have confirmed it. Luke, Paul, Isaiah, and John. We actually have 4. We can then understand that this is what Jesus was describing in Matthew 24 too. So, we have 5. It should be indisputable at this point.
I feel there is a lot of truth going on in the prewrath thinking. But I have one question I can't figure out: If the great multitude in Rev 7:9-17 are those who have been through the great trib, and then raptured, where are those that were resurrected at the rapture? At the rapture we have those who are asleep who get raptured first, and then those who remain and are alive, together to meet the Lord. I dont see any mention of those resurrected saints. Anyone have thoughts about this? Thanks
Whoever died in Christ is resurrected at the rapture, where those who are alive and remain will also be caught up. You can bet the ones that are alive and remain have been given authority because they have been tested to the point of death. Take that to God in prayer
Does Paul's expression, "the last trumpet," in 1 Corinthians 15:52 have any relationship to the trumpets, specifically the seventh trumpet, in Revelation 11:12 at the advent of the seventh trumpet?
@@Post-Trib Leviticus 23:24 Numbers 10:9, 31:6 (Representing the war against the Antichrist, Starting in the midst of the year (1260day) Leviticus 25:9-10 Ten days after the midst of the hebrew year, there is a day of atonement, on that day there is the trumpet, on the 10th day of the 7th month, that would be exactly the day 1335 of daniel 70th week (Daniel 12:12) 1335/7 = 190,71. The 10th day of the 7th Month is the day 190 of the year. On that day the last trumpet will be blown and we will be raptured (1. Corinthains 15:52, 1 Thess 4,1) Paul did not see the viles or trumpets because this concept was only reveleaed to john in heaven. Paul was not talking about that mentioned in revelation because it was not written till that
@@JJ1802 Do you not understand “Who” is the author of the scriptures! The word of God was not conceived by men! I completely believe that God already knew all about Revelation before God ever told Paul what to write! 🤦🏼🤦🏼🤷🏼🤷🏼
The 6th trumpet which is the 2nd woe ends after the resurrection of the 2 olive trees. So I don't understand how the 7 trumpets can be contained in 42 months when the 6th trumpet alone is 42 months. 🤔 And I do not understand that the antichrist can still be present to kill the olive trees at the end of the 6th trumpet because his reign is supposed to be over at this time ... Why ? Because he begins to reign BEFORE the 6th seal at the midpoint then arrives the 5th trumpet = 5 months the 6th = 42 months, the antichrist is therefore present 47 months on earth and yet I did not count his period of reign during tribulation before the 6th seal because we do not know this duration. The word says he has power over the saints for 42 months so how can he kill them 47 months after the start of his reign if he no longer has permission to harm them? 🤔 And why is he on earth more than 42 months ?🤔 (Excuse my english im french)
I believe that we get raptured after the mid point,,, but I am confused as to where and how in the timeline of the seals and trumpets are we raptured. Are we raptured somewhere between the 5th and 7th seal,,,, is that the last trumpet that is described in 2 corinthians 15? Is last the same as 7th trumpet in revelation?
Why is the 70th week of Daniel still being thought to be future? 70 comes after 69, not a huge indeterminate gap. We do not need a future 70th week particularly since Revelation mentions no such thing. Instead of trying to force it upon Revelation, why is not a 3.5 year trib which Revelation actually mentions in three passages not satisfactory? Let us stick with what Scripture actually states.
I'm definitely postmill, but I appreciate the Dr.'s strong stance on his position. He makes a great job explaining and defending his pre-wrath position. It's interesting that he mentions the Didache (if you haven't read it, please do). He mentions that it teaches that the church will go through the tribulation period. This is true. However, considering the time it was most likely written in it was still prior to Nero and the ultimate fall of the temple in 70 AD. I see a problem here, in that, he's still separating the 69th and 70th week in Daniel. To date I, personally, haven't seen anyone biblically demonstrate that there is a "gap" between those weeks. He also clearly mentioned the binding of the "strong man". That is clearly a reference to Satan. Do a study to see what were signs of that binding. I'll leave that there. Much love and much respect to my brethren with whom I disagree. I appreciate the discussion and believe it is very necessary.
Jesus said no man knows the day nor the hour of his return..but Daniel said it would be 1260 days from the day that the anti-christ sets up the "abomination of desolation" in the temple. So if Christians do go through the Tribulation, as soon as they see the abomination set up, they will all know the exact day of Jesus's return which according to Daniel, will be 1260 days later. The only way that Christians won't know is...if there is a pre-trib rapture. A second problem is the 24 elders who are in heaven during the Tribulation. Who are they? Angels? No it says the angels are with them. Leaders of the nation of Israel? No, because God's refining work of his people is not complete. The seven letters to the seven churches tells us who they are because what did God promise to give to those who stayed faithful , when they got to heaven ? A throne, a white robe, and a crown. What are the 24 elders doing? Sitting on thrones, wearing white robes and wearing crowns. This is how you know for certain that the 24 elders represent the church who is in heaven during the Tribulation...the only way to explain this is if there is a pre-trib rapture. There are also many more problems that can't be resolved...unless there's a pre-trib rapture. The problem I see with this topic and many others is Biblical illiteracy, doctrinal illiteracy and failed logic.
Dr Alan Kurschner flat out LIED about Jan Markell changing her tune on rapture. I went to his channel and he turned OFF comments which speaks volumes about his character.
Watch the documentary 7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture he talks about. It’s phenomenal and has tons of helpful graphics and charts that you can screenshot
Important part here in Revelation 7:2-3 The angels have not been permitted to harm the earth yet. 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 says that we receive our rest on the day that Jesus is revealed from heaven with mighty angels in flaming fire to take vengeance. So if the angels haven't been permitted to do anything yet in Revelation 7:2-3 then how could the wrath of God have begun? Luke 17:29-30 says just as Lot went out of Sodom on the day fire and brimstone rained down from heaven, even so will it be on the day the Son of Man is revealed. Genesis 19:22-24 "Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens." The same as the angels can't do anything until Lot escapes, the angels in Revelation 7:2-3 cannot do anything until God's people are protected. We see in the remainder of Revelation 7 the 144,000 who are sealed that will stay on earth and we see the innumerable multitude arrive in heaven. They have come out of the Great Tribulation, corresponding with the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27 and the redemption of those who are commanded to 'look up' in Luke 21:25-28. The combination of those in heaven and on earth being gathered sure sounds like a resurrection and a rapture. Also Ephesians 1:10 We then see fire rain down from heaven in Revelation 8, in the exact scenario that Luke 17:29-30 and Genesis 19:22-24 describes. Please note the signs in sun, moon, and stars in Revelation 6:12-14 and the mourning and fear that fills the people of earth in the following verses 15-17. This matches with Matthew 24:29-30, Luke 21:25-26, and Mark 13:24-25. And they see Him who sits upon the throne Revelation 6:16, Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:27, Mark 13:26 This is all just as described in Revelation 1:7 which says that 'every eye will see.' Then 'sudden destruction' like a thief in the night or like birth pains upon a pregnant woman. 1st Thessalonians 5:2-3, Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 8. Note how Isaiah uses the same analogy as Paul in 1st Thessalonians 5 to a 'woman in labor' in conjunction with the day of the Lord and the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars. Isaiah 13:6-10. Tying all this together with Matthew 24:29-44 and the thief in the night analogy. Also Joel 2:31-32 which has the same exact wording as Revelation 6:12-14 with the sun turning black and the moon to blood. Another analogy to a 'thief' in Joel 2:9. And a deliverance in verse 32. One more thing stands out, excuse the pun... Revelation 6:17 "Who is able to stand?" Luke 21:36 Revelation 7:9 Psalm 76:7-10 Arm of the Lord made bare in the eyes of all the nations (every eye will see) along with a command for those who bear the vessels of the Lord to depart. Isaiah 52:10-12 Flee from Babylon, it's the time of the Lord's vengeance Revelation 18:4, Jeremiah 51:6 Come My people, enter your chambers and close your doors behind you. Hide yourself as for a little moment, until the indignation is past. Isaiah 26:19-21 Matthew 25:10 Exodus 12:13 'The destroyer' Exodus 12:23 Revelation 9:11 Ezekiel 9:1-11 Isaiah 54:16-17 The destroyer cannot harm those hiding in their house or chamber marked by the blood of the Lamb, nor those who have the seal of God on their forehead. Revelation 9:4
I love listening to "scholars" bumble and stumble when they don't know what they are talking about. It's painful to listen to someone struggle through their answers when I have the correct answer sheet right here in front of me.
My grandfather had been teaching in this since the 70's glad to hear people are finally listening
What did he teach more precisely? To me it's obvious. Persecution of Christians and anyone that doesn't want false Christ will be the ultimate fate globally, before Jesus returns. So no Star-Trek-Theology cop out is gonna happen.
I'm a pre wrather. Better to be prepared than disappointed . There could be a huge falling away by disillusioned pre rapture adherents.
That’s what I’m afraid of. It will be extremely heartbreaking if the rapture is post trib and we see so many pre tribbers lose faith and fall away because they had all their hope hanging on escaping the tribulation. I believe in a post trib rapture with the hope I’m wrong. But I’m prepared. If we are right, we will have to pray daily for our brother and sisters to stay strong and endure to the end!
It’s making my heart break
Look up John Darby he started the rapture theory and the rapture theory has only been around for 200 years starting with a man John Darby and the WORD OF GOD has been around wayyy longer than 200 years, just do some research and keep listening to Dr alan kurshner he proves it over and over again without a doubt that there's no pre trib rapture.. God bless you and your family 😇 🙏
@@titus6410 why?
The church was not here for any of Daniel's previous 69 weeks, so why would we be here for any of Daniel's 70th week. It is a period of time that is so bad the Bible says it has not been seen before nor will ever be seen again which means it's worse than the flood of noah. The Bible also says that Jesus lays waste to the entire Earth and very few people remain.
It has nothing to do with the church.
It would catch Christians totally off guard.
It would turn Christians away from the faith.
Christians would do everything in their power to try to stop God's plan.
Christians all over the world would take the mark over getting their head chopped off no one's going to want to get their head chopped off.
Christians would have to break God's commandments over and over and over again just to get by. We would have to Rob riot loot steal pillage and most likely kill. There's going to be no going down to any of the stores and buying food supplies etc. Within hours of the first seal judgment or within hours of the pre-tribulation rapture the church. People are going to know their times up.
Not once does the Bible give us any instructions to prepare for the tribulation. Yet if we're going to go through it we would need years worth of food supplies weapons to defend ourselves before the tribulation even begins.
Jesus himself even says pray that you are deemed worthy to escape ALL these things that are to come to pass.
I promise you we will be long gone before the Antichrist is even revealed.
I come at eschatology as a relatively newly saved child of God. I spent my first few years in my faith studying the old testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, followed by the epistles, before putting any considerable time into Revelation. I've spent the last 2 years in a mix of Old and New Testament general studies and a lot of time on Daniel, Matthew and Revelation. After repeatedly revisiting Matthew 24 - having had no preconceived notions of the end times interpretations - it was apparent to me that the pre-trib rapture was not squaring up with the Word. So, I started exploring other interpretations until I came upon Pre-Wrath and all the pieces just came together without having to do pretzel logic or forcing different passages to work with or against one another.
I'd suggest that those with any interest in addressing some of the shortcomings in the arguments in defense of pre-trib to put pre-wrath to the test against the word of God. You may be glad you did.
Excellent observation! Your description is similar to my experience with studying eschatology.
@@boonwarner Jesse, I have to admit that my first reading of the Bible, before I was saved, was a weak attempt at understanding Revelation. I thought, why not just skip right to the last chapter to see how the book ends. Pretty funny now when I look back on that and when I was convinced that Revelation as absolutely crazy. And why wouldn't it since I hadn't done any of the necessary groundwork, chief among which were the creation account in Genesis, God's Law in Deuteronomy, the failure of living under human leadership in Judges and Kings and of course the fulfilment of prophecy and the defeat of death in the first coming of our Lord and Savior. That's the foundation built on rock rather than sand that I believe we all need. Blessing to you and yours, Jesse.
Andy Woods series much better as this presenter teacher is ignorant.
@@lindadamico5614 Who is Andy Woods? And what teaching series?
@@derpywho1394
Andy Woods is a hardcore pre tribber; his fans love his teaching..
Dang, I didn't know that there was a name for what I already believed from just reading the Bible. Lol
Me too, I came to pre wrath, post trib position by reading the bible for myself and I thought it was just me who thought that!
There's a name for just about everything in the Bible!
@@Beth-ju7nb I did as well 😁 God bless you and your family 😇 🙏
Me too. 2013 went from pre trib to this view with just the Bible. No need to be indoctrinated just Bible please 😊
A true blessing awaits any believer who bases any doctrine on what is written in The Bible read in context rather than making any verse “fit” a doctrine.
I have been studying revelation for 7 to 8 years, glory to God that he showed me pre- wrath. If people would just read their bibles for what it is ! Gods living and breathing word. No need to move Gods scripture. If teachers move scripture around they do so to confirm their doctrine . Doctrine of lies. Bible is 100 % truth. God tells us exactly how Daniel 70 week will be played out from Daniel to Matthew 24 to Revelation. I pray the the delusion of pre-trib spirit be broke In Jesus name, Amen . Time to be spiritually and physically ready.
Lorelei Dorward, the parable of wheat and tares describes the great tribulation when Jesus sows seed (represented by the tribulation saint revival in Rev 7), then Satan sows seed (represented by the mark of the beast), and it says the wicked tares are harvested and burned first, then the good wheat are ingathered to Jesus. How do you interpret this in your pre-wrath interpretation where the wheat is harvested first?
This is about Jesus Seed and the devils seed that grow together. We can tell by the fruit that they produce. When it's time for Jesus to harvest the field on the Great day of The Lord their will be judgment on all that do not follow Jesus Christ . The judgement will be by fire. On the same day or even at the same moment in time the judgement will fall on the earth and true believers in Christ will be raptured up. One right after the other.
The "blessed hope" of the rapture is totally and clearly pre-trib. MARANATHA 😉!
@@biblehistoryscience3530 2 Peter 3:4 states it well, " there will be mockers and scoffers ...saying when is the time of his coming?..." Read the entire chapter 😉.
@@loreleidorward8651 MARANATHA 😁👍
Tribulation = suffering and/or persecution allowed by God for testing and/or purification. Wrath of God, especially in an end of time context = judgment!
Preparing the bride! Amen
So well said! Thank you!!
So you are saying that Jesus wasn’t enough to purify us?? 🧐
@@DP-ih6nt - there is a possibility that our minds are not blameless at the coming of Jesus. One of the ways we can remain blameless in our minds (or while being) is through tribulation. There are many examples in scripture of God allowing such things to ensure that His people are blameless.
@@DP-ih6nt In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:6-7 ESV
It’s the argument which fits consistently, but it also fits with God’s plan for salvation. He needs boots on the ground to lead people to the truth and help them through
YESSS so well said!!!
Nicely said!
The 144 000 and the 2 witnesses
I believe we are out of here
Thanks to The Remnant Radio for having me on to explain my prewrath perspective.
Our honor! We look forward to having you again :)
Michael Rowntree
1335 - 1260=75 days of great tribulations
Blessed is he who comes to the 1335 day
Daniel chapter 12 verse 11 through 13
Mike Frady good thought... what do you do with the 1290 days in 12:11?
Michael Rowntree
Here is an outline I’ve seen of how these days correlate:
- 1260 Days (False Peace)
> Abomination of Desolation
- 1260 Days (Great Tribulation)
> Feast of Trumpets / Rapture
- 30 Days (Reclamation)
> Triumphal Entry
- 45 Days (Restoration)
> Millennial Kingdom Begins
The wrath of the Lamb which is the Trumpets, and the wrath of God, which is the vials, both happen after the seven years are over.
These events happen for a minimum of three years and eleven months longer than the seven year period, based upon the length of the fifth trumpet and sixth trumpet events.
All the views go astray on either when the wrath of God begins, or how long is the wrath of God.
They also miss the second coming of Jesus at the end of the seven year period, to gather the church out of the earth, and take them back to heaven, this happens in Revelation 7:9-14 and Revelation 14:14-16 these raptures are never explained by any of the existing views, but I show this, and a third coming of Jesus, that also is not explained in any of the views out there, if u want to see this for yourself I have 5 videos on RUclips under the title
Pt1 the pre wrath rapture and the third coming of Jesus
Don't block yourself from expanding your understanding of Revelation.
For those considering Alan's take on the timing of the rapture and the distinction between tribulation (Satan's persecution of Christians and Jews) and God's Wrath (His judgment on unbelievers via Trumpet and Bowl judgments), consider this...
The disciples asked Jesus 'What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?' In his answer, Jesus listed, in order, a dozen or so events that had to happen (culminating in the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars) just prior to his appearance in the clouds and His gathering of the elect (Rapture).
Then in Revelation, Jesus showed John a similar list of events. And He covered many of those events twice, in two separate visions... once in Rev 6-7 and again in Rev 12-14 (where He introduced more characters to the story and added more detail). Here's a comparison of those events in Matthew 24 and in Revelation:
Event Matt Revelation (2 visions, same events)
False Christs 24:4 6:1 13:8 (1st Seal)
Wars 24:6 6:3 13:7 (2nd Seal)
Famines, Earthquakes (Pestilence Luke 21:11) 24:7 6:5-8 13:16 (3rd & 4th Seals)
Persecution, Martyrdom 24:9 6:9 13:10-15 (5th Seal)
False prophets 24:11 13:11-14
Gospel to all nations 24:14 14:6
Abomination of Desolation 24:15 12:6
Flee Judea 24:16 12:6-16
Beginning of 'great tribulation' 24:21 7:14 12:17
Days of Great Tribulation 'cut short' 24:22
Sun & moon darkened, stars fall 24:29 6:12 (6th Seal)
Jesus' 2nd Coming (on the clouds) 24:30 6:15 14:14 (6th Seal)
Gathering of the elect (Rapture) 24:31 7:2-14 14:15 (6th Seal)
There is no 7-year 'Tribulation'. Scripture only mentions a period of 'great tribulation' (Matt 24:21, Rev 7:14) which starts after the Abomination of Desolation and lasts 42 months (Dan 9).
And based on Jesus' answer in Matt 24, it appears Daniel's 70th Week will be split into 4 parts:
1. Beginning of birth pains (seems to include Seals 1-4 as Antichrist gains political power)
2. Great Tribulation (Seal 5 as Antichrist declares himself god and then persecutes Christians and Jews)
3. Jesus' 2nd Coming (Seal 6, on the clouds, marking of the 144,000, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture)
4. The end (seems to be referring to God's judgment/wrath)
Note that Jesus didn't specifically mention God's Wrath in Matt 24 other than to say "And then, the end will come". But He did reveal God's Wrath to John in Rev 8-11 (Trumpet Judgments) and in Rev 15-20 (Bowl Judgments). The chapters in between (Rev 12-14) are a recap of the events of Rev 6-7 where he introduces new characters and provides more detail. God's judgment happens AFTER Jesus appears on the clouds (Seal 6) and the scroll is fully opened (Seal 7).
Once we realize that Jesus described the events leading up to his return in two separate visions (Rev 6-7 and Rev 12-14), Revelation becomes much less confusing. It also helps to know that the scroll contains the Father's instructions for his wrath and that his wrath can't begin until the scroll is fully opened (wrath starts with Seal 7 in Rev 8).
I suppose we won't know for sure until the day comes, but a Pre-Wrath Rapture, at the 6th Seal when Jesus first appears, sure makes the most sense to me.
So you think Christians will be here to see the Anti Christ declare himself God?
@@plalelal That's the way I read it, Al. I was taught Pre-Trib. But the more I studied, the more I realized that's not what the bible teaches.
“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains..." Matt 24:15-16
"Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day (coming of Christ and our being gathered to him) will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thes 2:3-4
Nicely done sir. This was one point I wish Alan would have spent some time on. The seals are the birth pains, not Gods wrath. I believe this is the biggest point of contention which leads to a false description of the 7 years as the tribulation period.
If Christians are raptured at the 6th Seal of Revelation, how then can they be raptured again in First Corinthians 15:52 at the last Trumpet?
@@plalelal because the last trumpet is not referring to the trumpets of wrath. It’s more likely about one of two silver trumpets used in Israel for gathering of the people.
I’ve been a pre trib since the early 1970s but even as a 12-year-old in church, I couldn’t fathom two second comings. Because of the blessed work of Dalton Thomas, I have switched my position on the matter. You guys did an excellent job of bringing this out even more. Thank you and God bless you
I have also learned a lot from Dalton Thomas,and Joel Richardson as well. Great Teachers.
Dalton is an ignorant man.
@@MrRondonmon But he’s got some good points
@@henrymiranda1440 No he doesn't, as a matter of fact he or Joel (I think it was him) shadowbanned me like a liberal, because I destroyed all his points. In other words, like a coward, he wanted the views, and I could pst, but my post would not show up, that's a juvenile liberal type spirit, not a Christian type spirit.
The Anti-Christ s not a Muslim that is like the dumbest thing I have ever seen in years and Joel, even though he has a good heart, unlike Dalton, is just flat out wrong, and I can destroy their thesis, so instead of challenging me thy shadowbanned me and thus I wrote them a terse e-mail and unsubscribed.
Dan. 8:9 tells us EXACTLY where the AC is born, in that verse, God gives us a SIMPLE four-way directional box, and it states he will WAX GREAT (Conquer) TOWARDS the East, TOWARDS the South, and TOWARDS Israel, thus the TOWARDS means he conquers in that direction because Israel gets Conquered. Thus he conquers by coming from the Northwest corridor of this Four General Kingdom. Thus it has to be Greece where he is born at. This also applies to Dan. 7 which says he must arise out of the 10 (Divided Europes complete number, 10 stands for COMPLETION) which arise out of the Fourth Beasts Head. Thus with Greece being in the E.U. and Egypt and Turkey NOT BEING in the E.U. only Greece qualifies this man to be the President of the E.U.
He is an Assyrian by blood (Turk) according to Isaiah chapter 10, whose family has moved to Greece (they have a common border. Then he's born in Greece (arises amongst the 10 or in the E.U.) Thus he ARISES to power in the E.U. (Fourth Beast). There is no Muslim Anti-Christ, those guys are just living in a fantasy world.
I destroy all Mid r Post Trib POV.
@Bryan R Rivera Of Course Dan. 8 has a future fulfillment starting in verse 9, he's called the Little Horn just like in Dan. 7, who is an END TIME BEAST. God's isn't giving us two different Little Horns brother. We can also see via Gabriel's interpretation of this vision that this man is an End Tie Beast, it was so in Daniel ch. 8.
One thing that deceives many people is the 2300 days, it is not 2300 days, it's 1150 days, IRS 2300 Evening and Mornings Sacrofices or OBLATIONS unto the Lord, Daniel couldn't;t make actual sacrifices, he paid TRIBUTE to God, see Dan. 9:21, at the time of the Evening Sacrifice Gabriel came unto Daniel and told him all these things via the 70 weeks. The very verse (Dan. 8:14) has TWO WORDS they interpret as DAY, and it's wrong it's Evening and Morning. I can show you via a post I made today who it's wrong. Thus, now we can see the end time sacrifice is taken away for 1150 days, thus ot FITS, and we can see Gabriel says it is an End Time Beast.
Dan. 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision..........
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the *transgressors are come to the full* a king of *fierce countenance* and understanding *dark sentences* shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be *mighty, but not by his own power (See Rev. 13 the Dagon gives him his POWER* and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall *destroy the mighty and the holy people*
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall *magnify himself in his heart* and by *peace shall destroy many (The whole Mediterranean Sea Region, not just Israel)* he shall also stand up against the *Prince of princes(Jesus) but he shall be *broken without hand (Jesus SPEAKS Victory)*
26 And the vision of the *evening and the morning* which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
NOW WATCH. See the ABOVE Evening and Morning? The KJV Translators translated it CORRECTLY in verse 26, but in verse 14 they called it DAYS, I will post the Hebrew Transliteration. WATCH THIS:
Dan. 8:26 And the vision 4758 of the evening *6153 and the morning 1242* which x834 was told 559 z8738 [is] true: 571 wherefore shut thou up 5640 z8798 x859 the vision; 2377 for x3588 it [shall be] for many 7227 *days. 3117*
See the Evening and Morning numbers? WATCH the same numbers in verse 14 where it says DAYS INCORRECTLY.
And he said 559 z8799 unto x413 me, Unto x5704 two thousand 505 and three 7969 hundred 3967 *days; 6153 1242* then shall the sanctuary 6944 be cleansed. 6663 z8738
SEE WHAT HEY DID? LOL, It is not Days, it's 2300 Evening and Mornings, thus it FITS INSIDE the End Time Beasts 1260 day rule.
Now look up at the very first Hebrew Transliteration Post, at the very last word, it is DAY and the Strongs number is 3117 (YOWM) not EREB (6153) which means DUSK or BOQER (1242) which means morning, Break of day.
Thus the 2300 are 2300 Evening and Morning Sacrifices/TRIBUTES unto God, which can just be prayer time as ot was with Daniel I assume, besides, Jesus is our once and for all sacrifice. Thus the Tribute is a tradition, they can still stop the Evening and Morning prayers unto Jesus in the Temple of God. Psstt, that which is TAKEN AWAY (1290) is Jesus Worship, not some profaned meat sacrifice. Meaning the Jews REPENT just BEFORE the DOTL.
In the early days I was pre-trib and then I read the Bible for myself and studied this out. One of the verses that always bothered me was Matthew 24:29 after the tribulation of those days. And then if you read further it has all of first Thessalonians chapter 4 language in the clouds trumpet gathering. After the tribulation of what days of what he just explained earlier in Matthew 24 the man-made/devil made tribulations. You can also read about it in Revelation six. Also in first thes Chapter 5 it starts with a but that’s a conjunction and then he’s telling us to watch be sober what are we watching for if we were already pre-trib out. And it’s so simple in revelation. It’s in chronological order. We start John in the first century, then chapter 6 tribulation, then the end of chapter 6 the rapture, then chapter 7 the results of the rapture, and then after that chapter 8 ,9,10 wrath . It all wraps up in chapter 11. Then chapter 12 Jesus is born we’re starting all over again first century. Chapter 13 tribulation, chapter 14 rapture. Then as we go along you hit the wrath again. Read the Bible and don’t worry about tradition. God will bless that.
Rev 10:7 is rapture...compare with 1Cor 15:52, also rapture.
Seals trumpets and bowls are not consecutive, they overlap. Rapture is 7th seal 7th trumpet 7th bowl.
PREWRATH view raises lots of questions, and is inconsistent.
Post teib is the correct view.
Revelation 10 still it’s not pre-TRIB. I know you want it to be pre-TRIB and in a perfect world so would I put the Bible does it speak of it anywhere not one verse not even Revelation 3:10.. And in history some of the greatest pre-TRIB guys who actually written books about it said there’s not one verse that supports a pre-TRIB rapture.
Matthew 24 is written to the nation of Israel . The church is still part of God's mystery and nothing is known about any church until Matthew 16:8 and only briefly mentioned to Peter . Jesus only mentioned the church but never said anything about who they were .
@@edge2sword186 who are the elect?
Seth, Noah, Abraham, apostles including Paul, us, who believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
All elect who believe in Jesus, He will raise up and gather them in the air to meet the Lord.
There are also another group of elect. They are those who believe in Jesus as the Messiah after His coming and rapture. They are those 'BLESSED' that Daniel writes about, who make it through God's wrath and into the MILLENIAL kingdom in earthly bodies. They make it to the end of 1335 days.
@@lluda44 It depends on your view of the dispensations . Each era has it's place but real faith is common to all dispensations . The old testament saints were raised and seen in the holy city along with Christ .
As a long-time student of escatology regarding all end-time prophesy Scriptures, I too have the pre-wrath view; however, I believe that the rapture will happen just before God begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth, and that happens just BEFORE the the 6th seal is opened. When the 6th seal is open, God causes horrible destruction on the earth, to the point where even the people who are hiding in the caves wish for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from Him who sits on the throne (in the clouds as people are being raptured) as all eyes on earth will see Him (Rev 1:7). The witnesses on earth of these catostrophic events have stated in Rev 6:17 state that "surely their wrath (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) HAS COME (began with the opening of the 6th seal). Chapter 7 is merely providing a "closeup" of the rapture event along with the sealing of the 144,000, who remain on the earth during God's wrath but are put in a safe place to protect them. Thus, it is obvious that God's wrath begins when the 6th seal is opened, not the 7th seal. Please explain if you do not agree and why. Thank you for this excellent interview.
Finally I found someone who is teaching what I'm reading. Now I can go further with it.
A couple of years ago I stopped watching videos on eschatology and just study for myself, because whatever they are talking about I can not see in the Bible. So not sure what Bible they are reading from.
Amen.
*A+*
Kurshcner's view is intriguing. It would be really helpful if you guys could put a downloadable comparison chart handout together for Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Post-Trib Pre-Wrath views on it containing a brief explanation and scriptures for each.
Dr K has great information. I would encourage him to listen to this interview and work on his delivery. I find what he has to say excellent, but his delivery is difficult to follow.
I concur - it was difficult to follow his position, it was not well presented
I’m a pre-Wrather here’s what I think in response to your great question. I believe what the scriptures actually state, that the “dead rise first” and then those that are alive and remain meet Jesus in the air at Jesus’s second coming then His feet touch down, earthquake Armageddon. I believe that the secret Pre-Trib rapture is a lie because the scriptures never says that the living church are raptured first before the dead in a “secret” rapture. Also there is the matter of the dead martyrs souls under the altar at Revelation 6:9 and the issue of the tribulation saints. The martyrs are told to wait, so this means that the resurrection hasn’t occurred all the way up to Revelation 6:9. Anyway to answer your question ALL of the dead in Christ to include the Martyrs and the tribulation saints, and the 2 witnesses that were killed in Jesus name rise first at the resurrection and then those that are alive and remain in Christ are raptured, they all get glorified bodies. Those that survived and did not take the mark of the beast are the ones that repopulate the 1000 year millennial kingdom reign of Jesus on Earth. They are deceived by satan because he is let back out of the pit at the end of the 1000 years and it’s the Gog/Magog war.
God bless you and keep you all safe. 🙏
No there is not. The dead rise first the scriptures do not say that the living church rises before the dead when the tribulation saints will still die in the name of the Lord Jesus. They will get a glorified body.
I appreciate the perspective & am in agreement as of now! Just cant figure out how some of the great teachers like Chuck Missler, Perry Stone, James White, etc are all in to the Pre Trip Rapture? Kind of perplexed!
God Bless
Probably because it’s part of a great delusion. The god of this world has blinded them because they love not the truth. Doctrines and precepts of men and such.
MENE MENE TEKEL, many people don’t understand the Rapture because it was a hidden mystery until it was revealed in plain language thru Paul, but few people keep that fact in mind when reading the Bible.
For example, many think that Matt 24:29-31 is strong proof of a post-trib Rapture because Jesus was talking and talking clearly, BUT the Rapture mystery hadn’t been revealed yet, so Jesus never talked about it using clear language, so this cannot be about the Rapture. And since it's not about the Rapture, post-trib is false.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 it does appear plainly that Jesus comes a second time (once)....not twice.
Paul...yes what does he say...especially to those concerned they had missed the 2nd coming of Christ. He said it would nit happen until after the son of perdition appeared.
It is clear.
@@biblehistoryscience3530
This argument makes no sense.
The mystery always existed within the First Resurrection promise. Somebody has to be alive when the First Resurrection occurs unless every saint on earth is dead. The Rapture is simply the Resurrection of the living that happens second in sequence..
Matt 24: 29-31 is the gathering together of the First Resurrection/Rapture not just the rapture.
For the dead rise first. Then those who are alive. We are gathered together in the clouds.
The straight up rapture verse is in Rev 14:14-16 because it’s describing the harvest of the earth..
Mark 13: 26-27 also describes the First Resurrection/ Rapture.
Luke 21 has a different take on this. It omits the gathering together phrase and opts in its place the Look Up for our redemption draws near promise. Whereas, Matt & Mark have the cloud staging emphasis. Luke presents the earth point of view just prior to the gathering together..
PAUL CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY tells us we won’t be gathered together (First Resurrection/Rapture) until AFTER the antichrist is here...
in 2 Thes 2:1-4.
I don’t know how the Holy Spirit thru Paul could make it anymore clear-Even doubling down on let no one deceive you???
And we also know that the Rapture occurs at the LAST TRUMPET. The true name for the Rapture ought be the LAST TRUMPET Rapture. And there’s only one last Trumpet in Revelation=the 7th.
Follow the mystery of the episunagoge (the GATHERING TOGETHER)...
“Behold, I tell you a MYSTERY : We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, (First Resurrection) and this mortal must put on immortality.” (Rapture)
I Corinthians 15:51-53 NKJV
“having made known to us the MYSTERY of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might GATHER TOGETHER in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him.”
Ephesians 1:9-10 NKJV
“The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it,
•that there should be delay no longer,
•but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound,
the MYSTERY of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.”
Revelation 10:5-7 NKJV
What happens at the 7th Trumpet? Figure it out.
Hint=First Resurrection followed by the Rapture...
“...And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.””
Revelation 11:18 NKJV
WRATH OF GOD is now coming to obliterate Satan’s antichrist beast kingdom...
NOTE: SEE ALSO SEAL 5 in relation to Rev 20 and the First Resurrection...
Perry Stone is a damn Heretic
For those who want a much greater in depth explanation of the pre wrath rapture then I highly recommend watching David Nathan’s teaching on it. He did a series on eschatology in 2010 and again in 2017. Both are very good.
David Nathan ? Where?
@@ignitedisciplemaking he is a Jewish believer who came to Christ many years ago. He is from/in South Africa. On his RUclips channel he has a video where he talks about when/how he came to Christ while performing his mandatory 2 years in the S.A. Army. I have followed him for a number of years and have yet to hear him say anything in gross error, and believe me when I say I fact check (like the Bereans) everyone I listen to. I have also corresponded with him thru email many times and asked him questions and he has always responded promptly. His RUclips channel is David Nathan.
God hates bible scholars. NO SPIRIT in the teaching.
I strongly agree with Peter. David Nathan is a very solidly Bible based teacher. Wonderful testimony and a very humble man. He does live RUclips on Sunday evenings his time (South Africa).
I think Joe Schimmel of Good Fight Ministries would be a good guest on Eschatology.
I second this! Pastor Joe is awesome
The difference between the "great tribulation" and the wrath of God is that the time great tribulation is when Satan's wrath will be poured out on God's people (Rev 12:12-17) but the time of God's wrath being poured out on the unredeemed world will occur "immediately after the tribulation [caused by Satan] of those days" (Mat 24:29-31).
Agree
Dr Michael Heiser said best you can do is make an educated guess on Eschatology. So be prepared like the Lord can come at any minute and be prepared to go through tribulation.
We will have to wait and see, keep looking up.
Jesus did not teach Christians to make educated guesses. That would make Jesus's teaching disingenuous, because he says that not only can we understand but _should_ understand the framework of how things will unfold: “Remember, I have told you ahead of time.” (Matt 24:25)
Dr. Alan Kurschner Extrapolating all that from that quote is a bit of a stretch. It can simply mean “when it happens, remember I told you”. Doesn’t necessarily mean “you should know exactly how and when it will happen.”
Still, the closest understanding does seem to be “pre wrath/mid trib”.
@@seeqr9 We shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the dead in Christ shall rise first.
And I will raise him up at the last day.
I am pre wrath and a follower of Dr Heiser's teachings, but this is my view as well. I expect to go through tribulation, but hope I'm wrong. My worry is that my pre-trib friends may fall away
This is a blessing for my tired soul. I’ve struggled with this for years and this is the best explanation I’ve ever heard
There is a clear and consistent emphasis all throughout the Bible on not just the Day of the Lord with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, but also with a gathering, a deliverance, a rest, or a redemption which occurs on this day too.
I've heard so many admit that there's a deliverance or rapture on this day, but they say it is not the church. I keep trying to get someone to point out Scripture which makes the distinction between a pre-trib rapture and the one here at the 6th seal with the signs, but so far I haven't had anyone bring forth good evidence for multiple gatherings or raptures. So, I have to conclude that the one at the 6th seal is the one and only resurrection and rapture. The fact that the innumerable multitude is too great to number should be a clue that this is not just some small number of tribulation saints. Then they match up with the same gatherings or redemption or deliverance we see after the signs in sun, moon, and stars in Matthew 24:29-31, Luke 21:25-28, Mark 13:24-27, and Joel 2:31-32.
We see other passages which also show a rest, deliverance, resurrection, or redemption just before God's judgment. Luke 17:29-30, 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10, Matthew 24:37-41, Isaiah 26:19-21.
With several of these we see the deliverance of the righteous is said to come on the same day as the judgment on the ungodly commences. This judgment is compared to the days of Noah in Matthew 24:37 and we see according to 2nd Peter 3:7 that this description of judgment raining down from heaven is consistent in both passages, only rather this time the judgment comes in the form of fire raining down from heaven and not water. This judgment in fire is also compared to the days of Lot with Sodom and Gomorrah. It's very similar only this time the judgment is global and not localized.
Now this deliverance on the Day of the Lord gets tons of coverage throughout scripture, but I do not see a pre-trib rapture specifically described anywhere in scripture. It must be heavily inferred at places like Revelation 4 with the 24 elders being representatives of the church.
Very strange that God would give so much attention to a small number of tribulation saints and seemingly ignore the main body of believers?
Even with 1st Thessalonians 4 which is perhaps the most definitive rapture passage in the entire Bible, we see Paul go directly from the resurrection and rapture in chapter 4 to talking about the Day of the Lord in chapter 5 so as to seemingly link these events together. Why talk to the Thessalonians about the Day of the Lord if they will be resurrected or raptured years previous? And again Paul makes the same connection to our rest occurring on the Day of Vengeance in 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10. Remember these are not Jews, these are church age Gentile saints. And this happens multiple times. I would say he does it again a 3rd time in 2nd Thessalonians 2. So, we meet the 2 or 3 witness criteria of 2nd Corinthians 13:1
The "concerning the times and the seasons" phrase not only links the resurrection and rapture in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 to the Day of the Lord in chapter 5, but is also a clear reference to something Jesus said in Acts 1:7 in conjunction with His return and restoring the kingdom of Israel.
The great tribulation isn't going to be fun. But although the saints will be martyred, we are already blessed with eternal heaven and will be given holy crowns for enduring that evil persecution.
I believed in pretrib rapture because that is what I was taught. When I read the bible for myself I couldn't see it. Too many things don't jive. Wheat and tares grow together till harvest.
Lot removed on the day judgment fell.
That day shall not come till there is a great falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. And those are just a start.
I believe the pre trib doctrine will cause the great falling away.
Be not deceived and fear not.
I first heard this view about 7 years ago from a Messianic Rabbi, Rabbi Baruch with Love Israel Ministries. This Rabbi was raised in Israel. He was brought up in the synagogue and clearly understands the Torah. When he accepted Christ as the Messiah he saw no distinction or need in putting away the Torah. His teachings are wonderful and pulls the books of the Bible together. He was the first teacher that I had ever heard explain the difference between tribulation and wrath.
The biggest point that pre tribulation folks get wrong is in trying to make the words “tribulation” and “wrath” synonymous when they are not. Tribulation, from the Greek word thlipsis, is different than wrath, from the Greek word orgay. They have never been synonymous, have never been from the same source and have never been directed at the same people. Tribulation has always been from Satan and directed primarily against God’s people, whereas wrath is from God and is totally directed against Satan and his followers. It was when I grasped this simple truth that the scales fell from my eyes and I saw that not only was the pre tribulation position, which I was raised with and knew nothing else, was wrong and the pre wrath position was in fact the truth as found in Scripture l
Bingo
The biggest thing pre wrathers get wrong, is claiming Jesus only comes back once! He comes in the clouds, raptures the saints and returns to heaven and does some celebrating! He then will return again at Armageddon, just like the pretribbers say!
@@dudleygordon6191 uhh, nope. We understand that His revealing and return is in two steps. The first is when He returns in the air to retrieve His bride, but He doesn’t land on the earth, and His full return later on when He lands on the Mount of Olives just as spoken of by the angels in this passage:
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
If you really look at what pre tribbers and pre wrathers believe there is not a lot of difference outside the timing of the Harpazo/Rapture. That one point is a big deal, but everything else is very much the same.
@@giselatimmins
Did you just two step me?
If Pretribs Jesus comes once for the saints and then returns to heaven and comes again later, that’s two returns! It’s the same for the prewrathers! Two returns, once in the clouds and once to the earth! Don’t two step me!
@@giselatimmins
He returns in the air and then He’ll return to the earth! 🤔🤔🤔 Sounds like two, 2, returns!
He’s coming again and then again later?? 🤦🏼🤷🏼
Just like pretribbers say it will happen! Don’t 2 step with me! 😂
I have leaned pre-trib most of my life, but always had trouble with II Thess 2. I never ruled out mid or pre-wrath. I have ruled out post-trib, as there are many reasons to.
I am now studying pre-wrath and am more leaning that way. I read the pre-wrath books when they came out years ago, but just wasn't in the right place to understand,
Pre wrath rapture and resurrection occurs post trib.
This position seems so right to me and answers so many issues! Thanks!
What a cloudy and murky position pre-wrath is. When asked for a "timeline for a pre-wrath position" such as pre-trib (before the 7 years), mid-trib (in the middle of the 7-years), post-trib (after the 7 years), all Alan has to offer is in saying, "We don't know." At least the true mid-trib position positively identifies Paul's 'last trump' of I Cor 15:52 at Rev 10:7 to Rev 12:5, mid-way.
And BTW, Marvin Rosenthal, one of the fathers of a Pre-wrath rapture in his 1990 book, the 'Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church," has the rapture at 5 1/4 years into the 7 years. These pre-wrath guys cannot even agree, and some are post-trib without even knowing it by placing the rapture in Matthew chapter 24 as one event and/or two separate events yet Matt 24:31 is still the rapture and/or that somewhere within Matthew chapter 24 it parallels or details the rapture somehow.
But as I always say, it's ok to agree to disagree on eschatology as we share a common salvation. But the pre-wrath position has one skating in the rink all over the place with one blade.
Blessings...
Even the thumbnail for the video mixes up pre-wrath with post-trib as if they are the same. Should say pre-wrath vs. post-trib but some pre-wrath believers are post-trib and don’t even know it
@@Studio54MediaGroup Very confusing position indeed.
@@writethevisionministry3050Alan does do a good job in arguing against a pre-trib rapture on the ‘falling away’ in II Thessalonians in his videos and agree there.
Thank You Jesus, Praise God
Ultimately nobody really knows how it will go down. However, pre wrath view seems the most logical to me.
I think God deliberately didn't allow us to know exactly the end times timetable: he wants us to be humble and to keep in a state of readiness both for suffering and for snatching away. So I think post-trib pre-wrath fits in best with most of the bible passages, but I do bear in mind Jesus said he would come as a thief when everyone was carrying on as normal, which doesn't sound like a traumatised post-trib world to me..... so I also bear in mind pre-trib could be correct and we could be snatched away at any moment now.
BUT.... Trying to pin down exact dates and a timetable will never succeed because God has said 'no one knows' (Matthew 24 v 36) and too much focus on that can become a distracting obsession when the whole idea of the end should make us focus on living a holy life (2 Peter 3 11-12)
Beth Jesus told when already!
In the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24:33-34
It already Happened!
The bible tells us exactly the timetable. The Matthew 24:15-22 tells us the Great Tribulation begins right after the mid point of the 7 year period, the abomination of desolation. And that "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." Then it goes into explaining the coming of the Son of Man to gather his elect.
The great tribulation will be the persecution of Christians, when they refuse to take the mark and worship the beast. For the rest of the world they will still be living normal lives, buying, selling and partying like the days of Noah. When Jesus comes back to rapture the rest who are alive and remain, it will be followed with His wrath being unleashed on the world. They will not be expecting it so it will overcome THEM like a thief in the night, not us. "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober." 1 Thessalonians 5: 4-6. No where in scripture does it describe a secret rapture just like, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.." That's not saying the whole event will be in a twinkling of an eye, it's saying just our bodies will be changed in a twinkling of a eye. 2 Thes 2 says that our gathering together to Him (rapture) and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, when he sits as God in the temple of God. That right there completely cancels out any pretrib rapture. And we know that that is at the mid point of the 7 years so that also tells us we have a list of signs and events that have to happen before the rapture/second coming.
The pretrib teaching is a false teaching and posttrib is not right either. the prewrath interpretation is the only one that lines up with scripture completely. The rapture will be at a unknown time anywhere after the great tribulation but before the end of the 7 years.
@@andreagrosso1925
Wow False teaching!!!
So you are saying JESUS was lying when he said in Matthew 24:34, “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place?
Who was Jesus talking to? He was talking to his disciples!
This already happened!
JESUS Won !!!!!!!!
@@madrick2831 Of course Jesus was not lying. He is saying the generation that will see all these things will not pass away until it is all fulfilled. That does not mean it was their generation.
@@andreagrosso1925 No that’s not what the Bible says!!!! JESUS said “this Generation “
He would of said that or the generation!
This was a local judgement, this judgment is old testament language!
One thing I know for certain is that this is another view that raises a lot of questions.
Here are my prewrath articles for postribulationists to consider:
www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/10/articles-for-posttribulationism-to-consider/
Post tribulation is accurate, says the Lord. Now, let me see you argue with that.
He was asked what is the difference between post tribulation and pre wrath.
I do not feel he gave a definitive answer and in fact may Have left some confused. He did a lot of stumbling in his speech and it doesn't really seem that he had an answer to the question. It seems to me that pre wrath is just another way to mark a particular event in Christ 2nd coming. In order for Wrath to start, the tribulation has to end, thereby making the pre wrath position, post trib anyway. Don't get me wrong I'm a post tribulation believer and I have learned a lot from the pre wrath position.
He has lots of good arguments on his web site against post-trib.
I've listened to Alan a bunch of times and there's so many aspects to the pre-wrath position and so many finer points that sometimes it's difficult for him and not just him, but others to stay on the subject at hand. I think they have the discussion much better organized and compartmentalized in the mini series they did, "7 pretrib problems and the pre-wrath rapture."
It is true pre-wrath and post trib are both really post trib. Matthew 24:29 says the Day of the Lord commences with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars after the tribulation of those days.
The only difference is that traditional post trib teaching says the Day of the Lord with the rapture immediately preceding will be the same day as Revelation 19 and the battle of Armageddon. Pre-wrath teaches the Day of the Lord comes at the 6th seal in Revelation 6 corresponding with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars.
Pre-wrath makes a finer distinction between the Great Tribulation (Satan's wrath against Israel and the saints) and the wrath of God which does not commence until after the rapture and the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal.
Premill (pre-wrath/post-wrath,etc) Amill, Postmill. Crazy how there are so many interpretations to God's Word regarding eschatology.
Kyle C, there are many interpretations of end time prophesies because God made them confusing so that some would see and hear but not understand because they have callous hearts, heavy ears and closed eyes.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 Interesting Similar to how Christ spoke of the Parables. In essence, the entire Bible is a Parable. What is your stance related to the Millennial Kingdom? I have my own opinion but its not popular nowadays, known as Postmillenialism. .
@@kylec8950, to be specific, Jesus said in Matt 13 that he spoke mysteries in parables (veiled language) so that some would understand and others not, then he told more parables and clearly explained them to his disciples.
One fascinating thing about that is the fact that Jesus also taught the Rapture mystery using veiled language but never explained what those parables and metaphors meant, then Paul later came and explicitly revealed the mystery using plain language. And that’s critical to remember when reading the Gospels because it means that nothing Jesus said in plain language or clearly explained could be about the Rapture, and that means Matt 24:29-31 cannot be about the Rapture because Jesus spoke this in plain language. So there goes post-trib.
Regarding the Millennium, I believe the Lord will rule the world as King of Kings on David’s throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, and the Lord will fulfill all the promises he made to the Patriarchs then.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 God is not the author of confusion. The devil is. Parables are used to teach those who desire to hear, not to confuse.
@@tongresa77, please help me out. What exactly did you find confusing in this thread?
A very good commentary ! The good Dr. got a little carried away with terminology (lost me a bit) . . . but I received enough to define myself as a pre-Wrather ! The one verse that clinches it for me is Revelation 16:15, where (in RED letters) Jesus states that at that point in the 7 Year Tribulation timeline, is where He returns. "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame". Rev. 16:15 THAT is the Second Coming of Christ !
Please also note that based on the Greek word “thlipsis”, PERSECUTION can synonymously be interchanged with TRIBULATION so it is quite appropriate to use the phrase GREAT PERSECUTION equally to GREAT TRIBULATION. We may have used the translation “tribulation” so often and equated it with Daniel’s 70th week that confusion results from labels. I have posted an in-depth and a summary video on my channel to further support the precepts of this video’s teaching.
Absolutely correct=Great Persecution of antichrist against the saints or Satan’s Wrath-(Thumos) is great Tribulation. And yes, a 7 year Tribulation (that is only given 3&1/2 years) has become so cliche with Pretribers linking it to Daniels 70th that Persecution is a better choice
I believe because it wakes people up to what it actually is-that being against the saints to take the mark of the beast and worship its image or face death...
Christians won’t be here they say. REALLY??? Whereas, the 5th Seal and Paul says otherwise in 2 Thes 2-that our gathering together= (First Resurrection followed by the Harpazo) can’t happen until after antichrist appears. I don’t know how the Holy Spirit could make it anymore clear through Paul... doubled down with the exhortation-LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU!!!
Statement: God’s Wrath is in the 7 Bowls-period. It’s what His Word calls it. The 7 Trumpets contain God’s Judgments (including WOE status) but they are NOT God’s full indignation WRATH=Ogre.
IE: “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of THE WRATH OF GOD on the earth.””
Revelation 16:1 NKJV
My problem with this view is that it is still based on Dispensationist theory. I completely reject Dispensationism. Apart from that, I agree that there is a pre wrath, post-trib rapture. I also find that not all of Revelation is written chronologically, which makes it difficult to pin down exactly when these things take place.
When the 2 witnesses are called up, that's also when the 7th trumpet sounds, God speaks and the 1st resurrection or rapture of the dead in Christ rise then we who are alive and remain. Then wrath is unleashed. Only the vials are specifically called the wrath of God
@PostTPreW yes, I am aware of that, but thank you for your comment. As I said above, I have a problem with Dispensationism. I think it's Antisemitic and Replacement Theology. It is obvious that the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet referred to by Paul.
Excellent explanation Alan. Scriptures start to flow to mind “I have told you ahead of time”! So much scriptures become very relevant from a prewrath view! “Look up, your redemption draws near” Luke 21
The cut short part is the area of difficulty. It can mean to cut back but it can also mean that something will not last any longer than.
Because the scriptures say " that for the elect sake the time will be cut short" so we assume this is believing saints that have to be rescued before none are left, but if you read Rev 5:9-11 it is intentional that many saints are supposed to be marterred. This could be considered a contradiction. So there needs to be some clarification here.
This is what I have always believed since the 80’s reading the Bible , when I was a Roman Catholic, is a teenager I came to that conclusion
I'm also pre-wrath but i see the seals as the siege of Jerusalem paralleled to Ezekiel 4-7 talking about the siege of Jerusalem. The 6th seal talks about people running to the hills just as Jesus told his disciples to do when the saw the city surrounded by armies and also mentioned in Ezekiel talking about by the siege of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 7:16 CSB - The survivors among them will escape and live on the mountains. Like doves of the valley, all of them will moan, each over his own iniquity.
The destruction of Jerusalem and her temple in 70AD is the key to unlocking the holy scriptures in all their glory.... Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 all refer to this horrific event which has nothing to do with the modern day state of Israel and everything to do with biblical Israel in the first century.....Jesus said that generation would not pass away until all these things were fulfilled and He was spot on of course..
God bless you in your quest for truth.
I take Jesus at His Word in Mathew 24:29-31"IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days....
Ma Shel’s, Jesus taught about his second coming in Matt 24:29-31 in plain language, but the Rapture mystery was not revealed in plain language until Paul, so Jesus could not have been talking about that here. And since this isn’t about the Rapture, it disproves post-trib.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 I disagree, but it will be a wait-&-see. "Let God be true and every man a liar". No matter what any of us expect, it will be what it will be and when HE decides.
@@breathofhome6315, I don't understand. You disagree that the Rapture was a hidden mystery that God revealed thru Paul?
@@biblehistoryscience3530 Jesus spoke of it way before Paul. The prophets of old spoke of it. Paul tried to explain it, but the theologians took it another direction. How many times in the Bible does it mention that tribulations come for believers, to strengthen and refine them, to get rid of the dross. We USA-ers have had it fairly easy and have become lax in our thinking, trying to make faith a 'happy' experience as per worldly thinking. Jesus said "Don't think it strange that these fiery trials come upon you to test and refine you." The world, during the Great Tribulation will be basically partying, at least between earthly wars and catastrophes. Most are so caught up in themselves that they don't care that bad has happened 'somewhere else' as long as it doesn't happen to them.
Peoples in other countries have and still suffer outrageous atrocities while we in the U.S. keep worrying about a new car and painted fingernails and rarely even talk to a neighbor, except to complain. When God declares "Enough!!" it won't matter what any of us think. BUT those that have taught wrong will be held accountable. I'd rather be the virgin with too much oil than the one without enough.
@@breathofhome6315, Jesus was the first person in the Bible to understand the Rapture mystery, but he only talked about it using the veiled language of things like parables and metaphors because it remained a hidden mystery before Paul. That’s the key to understanding when Jesus may have been talking about the Rapture, and when he could not have been.
Claims that belief in the Rapture escape is found in soft Christians (especially Americans) is falsified by church history. The Roman Catholic Church was established on false doctrines, including a false Eschatology that said the kingdom is now and their leadership are ruling the world for Christ until the end of time. Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches that broke away from Rome maintained that same basic erroneous doctrine.
However, Englishmen fought for more religious liberty and rebelled against their leaders by spreading Bibles as broadly as possible, and they believed what the Holy Spirit taught them in God’s word rather than what leaders were forcing everyone else to believe across Christendom. (And life was anything but easy in the 1600s.) Maps that show the degree to which the Rapture doctrine spread are maps that show the degree to which religious liberty spread.
By the way, Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to bolster faith in the Rapture escape in a church that was suffering severe persecution, which is the opposite of what post-trib teachers claim we should say to such people.
Didn't know you had him on here. Kurschner is simply on of the best exegetical theologians on Revelation. He has led me to believe that the rapture occurs at the sixth seal.
There is no LAST TRUMPET at the 6th Seal.
You have been led to be decieved:
*1 Cor.15:51-52*
**@the LAST Trumpet**
1 Thess.4:16 *"VOICE** of an Archangel and the TRUMPET of God.
Rev.1:10 *"loud *VOICE** as of a TRUMPET"
*Rev.4:1 *"VOICE** like a Trumpet"
*Rev.10:7* "But in the days of **THE VOICE** of the Seventh Angel when he is about to sound, ****THE MYSTERY**** of God would be FINISHED as He declared to His servants, the Prophets."
The 2 Witnesses are PROPHETS and are Resurrected and Called Up and ***REWARDED*** *@the *LAST** *Trumpet:*
**Rev.11:*12-*18-19**
@@-PlowsharesintoSwords please read the last shofar. That book clears it up.
@@graysonbr
*1 Cor.15:51-52*
**@the LAST Trumpet**
1 Thess.4:16 *"VOICE** of an Archangel and the TRUMPET of God.
Rev.1:10 *"loud *VOICE** as of a TRUMPET"
*Rev.4:1 *"VOICE** like a Trumpet"
*Rev.10:7* "But in the days of **THE VOICE** of the Seventh Angel when he is about to sound, ****THE MYSTERY**** of God would be FINISHED as He declared to His servants, the Prophets."
The 2 Witnesses are PROPHETS and are Resurrected and Called Up and ***REWARDED*** *@the *LAST** *Trumpet:*
**Rev.11:*12-*18-19**
@@-PlowsharesintoSwords
The Last Shofar!
Book by Donald Zoller and Joseph Lenard
@@graysonbr
🙄...no I pass on your doctrines of men, I'll stick with these:
*1 Cor.15:51-52*
**@the LAST Trumpet**
1 Thess.4:16 *"VOICE** of an Archangel and the TRUMPET of God.
Rev.1:10 *"loud *VOICE** as of a TRUMPET"
*Rev.4:1 *"VOICE** like a Trumpet"
*Rev.10:7* "But in the days of **THE VOICE** of the Seventh Angel when he is about to sound, ****THE MYSTERY**** of God would be FINISHED as He declared to His servants, the Prophets."
The 2 Witnesses are PROPHETS and are Resurrected and Called Up and ***REWARDED*** *@the *LAST** *Trumpet:*
**Rev.11:*12-*18-19**
You Guys Should have “Jacob Prasch” on he is a great Pre Wrath teacher with great Jewish insight
Christ came in judgement to the first century covenant breakers in 70AD, just as He promised His disciples... You quoted two verses from Matt and Mark where Jesus was talking to the High Priest and the Sanhedrin, using OT apocalyptic language to describe His coming in judgement.. the High Priest was freaked out and tore his clothes as he knew exactly what our Lord and Saviour meant. These scriptures are fulfilled bro..
God bless you in your quest for truth.
I concur 🎉
NO RAPTURE people. We NEVER leave earth ONCE/AFTER Jesus returns. NEVER. Make ready for the Tribulation.
Before God pours out wrath on the earth, we will be removed. death is certain because flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.
@@halfsheephalfjesus7357 1 Cor 15:51-52 ALL flesh will diecwhen Jesus returns AFTER THE TRIBULATION. God's wrath isn't for another 1,000 years.
@@picturesin3609 wrong about his wrath not being until after the 1000 years. That is a separate event. Final judgement on the church.
@@halfsheephalfjesus7357 Yes, separate from Satans wrath called the Tribulation.
@@picturesin3609 Not exactly. The Lord is angry at the church
I for years was pre trib. But I've moved to the selective rapture position which In most part is pre wrath.
The apostle Paul said we leave by rank and order. We will leave in companies like a military procession out of here, in an orderly fashion through the open door. God sees his children as crops that need to be harvested. He also sees us as lights for his glory. There are 3 major crops: Barley, wheat, and grapes. Barley and wheat crops are the church. They are both planted at the same time, in the autumn. The barley matures faster than the wheat. The barley bride is harvested (departs) at pretrib at springtime. God has set times for these harvests. You can not be harvested until your ready! Barley is winnowed by the wind. Have you ever heard of pearl barley? That pearl of great price! She leaves in Rev 4 when she hears the voice as of a trumpet that says, "COME UP HERE!" SHE IS CAUGHT UP DIRECTLY TO THRONE ROOM! This is where she will be jointly ruling and reigning with her bridegroom. If there is a last trump, there is a first trump!
As written in Songs of Solomon you will see what the other daughters are saying when they see the bride leave. These daughters are virgins...meaning they are saved believers. These daughters will cry aloud, "Return, Return oh Shulamite so we may look upon thee!" Why did they yearn to look at her? Christ was fully manifested in her and it was like seeing Christ shining from her face....that shekinah glory!
The wheat is harvested on the threshing floor by a heavy wooden board with pegs called a tribullum. Tribullum is derived from the word tribulation. Wheat is sifted not winnowed. This is the great multitude that we will see in heaven in Rev 7. Christ was seen wiping the tears from their faces.They aren't given crowns and not seated in the midst of the throne. They are holding palm branches and are standing before the throne.
The grapes are the 144,000 full overcomers of Israel caught up at midtrib, then The Time of Jacob's Trouble begins.
There are 3 light companies: Sun glory saints, moon glory saints, and star glory saints.These companies coincide with the crops.
Meditate on these things!
Sun glory saints are still present while it is daytime and those saints are removed right before the night season of tribulation begins. Then the darkness of Tribulation is upon this world but, we have 2 other light companies that rule the night. The moon and the stars!!!! These lights hold back the forces of evil on this earth till they are caught up out of here by rank and order as the apostle Paul told us. When those lights leave God's wrath is poured out on this earth and gross darkness is here.
All eschatological views have good points and not so good points
The Truth is that Only One can be Truth and all of the Others are NOT TRUE!
Find pre-trib in the first, oh, 16 or so centuries of church consistent teaching, no matter which branch (East Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, etc)
@@mirtikaschultz3282 Why even do that when we can simply go Straight to Scripture!
FIND where any Man of God in Scripture says to any Disciple that the Promised COMING of Jesus is BEFORE the Tribulation????
There is No Man of God that taught such a false Teaching!
Jesus the Son of God made it 100% Clear that His COMING is only in the Days AFTER the Tribulation has ended and Jesus made it 100% Clear to Not Follow after and NOT Believe anyone that says Jesus is COMING before His Promised Post Trib COMING!
Even Paul said to those in the Church to NOT believe anyones letters or anyones words or any spirits if they come saying Different to Paul!
Paul said to the Church that Jesus is NOT COMING to GATHER us to Himself UNTIL that Son of Perdition is Revealed and does as is Prophesied and then when those Prophecies are fulfilled then Jesus will be COMING and He will gather us Together to Himself and Destroy that Son of Perdition!
Jesus Teaches the Church this Exact same Truth as we Read in Revelation 19 and 20!
@@RaptureofSaints Pre Wrath doesn't say Jesus come before the tribulation. It says he comes on the clouds (not to earth) and cuts the tribulation short and then the Day of the Lord, which includes Gods wrath, begins. When we don't know. Its some time after the antichrist is revealed.
@@genebaker6964 Hello Gene, I am well aware of what the So called "Pre Wrath Doctrine teaches"
The Pre Wrath Doctrine Teaches that Jesus ONLY comes at the 6th Seal and that all of the Trumpets and all of the Bowls take place AFTER the Coming of Jesus in the 6th Seal!
They Teach that the Trumpets and Bowls ALL happen AFTER the First RESURRECTION!
They Teach that all of the Trumpets and Bowls take place AFTER the Tribulation has ended!
That is Incorrect as what we read in the Trumpets and Bowls are what is taking place During the Tribulation and also of the ORGE that only takes place at Christs COMING!
There are Many Many FLAWS with this Pre Trumpet pre Bowls Fable!
The Post Tribulation Doctrine that Jesus and Paul Taught is the True Doctrine that Declares that Jesus comes and that the ORGE of Jesus ONLY begins at His COMING when the First Resurrection takes place when Satan is Bound!
If youre gonna poke holes in post-trib (which you should- put it all to the test) represent the argument correctly. The 144k are NOT "symbolic". They don't need to be. Christians are ALREADY sealed.
This guy is so very wrong about his ideas. How can he supposedly study so much, and end up with so many wrong answers.
Stella, why do you believe the pre-wrath view is incorrect? Simply stating it’s wrong doesn’t do much good here.
Pre Wrath makes the most sense. Just read Matt 24 and you see the tribulation, then the signs of Jesus arrival on the clouds and then the rapture. Read Matt 24 for yourself NOT what others say it means. Pre Trib just make no sense. When did Jesus or the apostles ever promise us a rose garden here on earth? You can find many versus where they promise believers tribulation.
@@genebaker6964 I will answer the Question!
The Truth is that the Post Tribulation Doctrine that Jesus Taught is the True Doctrine!
Jesus makes it Clear 100% that we His Seed must remain on the earth with the Tares of Satan UNTIL the End of the Age!
Jesus said that the Harvest of His Seed IS the End of the Age!
Jesus said Clearly that at the Time of Him COMING and the Harvesting of His Seed He gathers together the tares and Brings Judgment!
The same as Noah and the same as Lot when we see that the Day of Salvation is also the day of Judgment!
Jesus makes it Clear that all that God has Given to Him He will Raise Up to Himself at the Last Day!
What Scripture says is that Jesus MUST remain in Heaven seated at the Right Hand of the Father UNTIl all of His Enemies become His Footstool!
We KNOW that at Christs COMING when the FIRST RESURRECTION takes place Satan is Bound!
Yes! Satan is Bound!
We KNOW that at Christs COMING when Satan is Bound that Son of Perdition is Destroyed because Paul Tells us that Jesus is NOT COMING to Gather us Together to Himself UNTIL the Son of Perdition is Revealed and then Paul says that when that Son of Perdition does what is Prophesied and is Revealed as being that Son of Perdition THEN Jesus will be COMING and will destroy that Son of Perdition when Jesus Gathers us to Himself!
We all KNOW that the Son of Perdition is Appointed and is Permitted to have Authority by God and Power by satan to Persecute the Saints for 42 Months!
We KNOW that the Tribulation is 42 Months!
We KNOW that the Two Witnesses have authority for 42 Months!
We know that the Gentiles trample Jerusalem for 42 Months!
ONLY when that 42 Months is Fulfilled will the Cut Off Point of the Tribulation be Reached and that Tribulation will end!
We know that ate Christs COMING when Satan is Bound and the First RESURRECTION takes place that there are many Gathered Together at Armigeddo and they SEE Jesus COMING and they KNOW that the Day of His ORGE is about to take place BECAUSE we read of them Crying out!
They will be saying That the Day of Christs ORGE is about to take place and they will be saying "Who is able to stand!" and they will be Crying out to the Mountains to fall on them as the Day of Christs ORGE is come!
It is 100% True that we are NOT appointed to that day of ORGE but will Obtain Salvation whether we are alive or have died we will LIVE TOGETHER with Jesus in that FIRST RESURRECTION when Satan is Bound and the Day of His ORGE begins!!!
Post Tribulation COMING of Jesus is before He Tramples the Wine Press of His ORGE!!!!
Read Zechariah 14!
Read Isiah!
Read Joel!
Read ALL of Revelation!
@@whodeytko The Pre Trumpet and Pre Bowl COMING of Jesus is 100% Wrong and is never Taught by any Apostle in Scripture!
Read what Jesus is saying in the Trumpets and Bowls!
Look at the Promise that Jesus gives to all Believers during the Trumpets and Bowls!
If the Tribulation has ended and is OVER at the 6th Seal that means that everything mentioned in Revelation AFTER the 6th Seal CANNOT relate to the Tribulation in any way because the Tribulation is Over and the Sun is Darkened and the Moon is Red and the Powers of Heaven are shaken and the Stars are falling from Heaven and the Mountains and Islands are moved out of their place!
The Truth is that the Climax of the Seals and the Trumpets and Bowls is when the ORGE of Jesus begins just as we Read in Revelation 19 and 20!
The Truth is that Jesus is ONLY coming at the Climax of the Seals and the Trumpets and the Bowls which is the Same Event spoken of in Revelation 19 and 20 when the First RESURRECTION takes place and when Satan is bound!
The Truth is that Jesus does NOT say that He is Changing the Length of the Tribulation from 1260 days to 900 Days!
The Truth is that the Word of God does NOT say that the Little Horn ONLY has power to shatter Gods Holy People for 900 days instead of the 1260 Days!
No!
Scripture Declares Clearly as per the 70th Week of Prophecy that the Time of Tribulation is Exactly 1260 days and then that Tribulation ENDS!
Scripture declares that the Beast ONLY has Power to Shatter Gods Holy People for 1260 Days and then that Authority is NO LONGER Granted by God!
Scripture Declares that Satan Empowers that Evil man for 1260 Days NOT this False 900 Days that is Taught be pre Trumpets teachers!
Scriptures Declare that the Two Witnesses are Declaring for the Same Time that the Son of Perdition is declaring for the same time that the Tribulation lasts and for the same time that Jerusalem is being Trampled down!
The Truth is that Jesus did NOT say that He was Changing the Tribulation from 1260 days to 900 days BUT that Jesus said that the Tribulation has a Clear Cut Off Point for the simple reason that if it did NOT have a Clear Cut off point and it continued then no flesh would be saved!!!
Let us NOT Twist the Words of Jesus and say that Jesus said that He was Changing the Length of the Tribulation from 1260 days to 900 Days as that is a LIE and is Totally 100% UnBiblical and NOT Taught by any Apostle nor Prophet!
the 70th Week Prophecy of Daniel is Precise and Clearly Declares that the Time of Trouble is exactly 1260 days Just as we Read in Revelation!
That Son of Perdition has Power and Authority for the FULL 1260 Days to Shatter Gods Holy People and IT DOES not end at some False 900 Day Fable!
Let us Come Back to Scripture!
Jesus said that we are Blessed and Holy when we Partake in the First Resurrection which we all know happens at Christs COMING when Satan is Bound!
That is what Jesus Declared!
Part 1/4
I am not here to attack Dr. Alan simply to add my expertise to the conversation. In fact, I would love to debate someone like him with the amount of expertise he has on the topic.
But...Oh boy. Where do I begin? Lol! I'm 5 minutes in and I have enough material to write a book unraveling this topic. The issue is that there doesn't seem to be a clear understanding of the terms used. Hopefully, my comments can clear some of it up.
I admit that this is an extensive topic with a wide-ranging amount of subjects woven into it so it's easy to get confused and make mistakes. I have studied this topic for the last 30 years and have over 1000 hours of biblical study on it. I don't say this to brag but to share my credentials since this is the internet and everyone has an opinion. It also doesn't mean I'm right but what I can do is clear up some of the confusion and clearly define terms so that at least we can discuss further on a more solid footing.
The first place we need to begin when discussing this topic is that God will unfold the future 1 Way, His Way. So if we have multiple ideas and theories then the maximum that will turn out to be right is 1. In my opinion, there is not 1 modern view on this topic I have heard in 30 years that's correct. I will show that the Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath views aren't it (Part 2). You see after 2000 years Christians particularly Western American Christians have forgotten who God used to write His Word. It wasn't 21st Century Americans it was the Jewish people (except for Luke). We say we understand that fact but the more I listen to teachers today the less I see of it.
Eschatology (the study of the end times) is part of a greater topic of Bible prophecy. Which is the very essence of God's Word.
Form Genesis 3 when God told the Serpent that his destruction would come from the seed of the woman to the promise to Noah that the flood would come to the promise to Abraham that he and his barren wife would be the father of nations, to Moses, to David, to Jesus. God foretells the future in advance over and over again from Genesis to Revelation to show the people of the world HE is the Great I AM. That He is the author of history from the beginning to the end.
Bible prophecy isn't just a topic, it's the heart of God. God lets us know how He thinks, and why He does what He does. When we understand it we see what His desires are and how He works all things for good. Bible prophecy is the Gospel and Eschatology is the completion of God's Plan of salvation. What He began in Genesis He will complete in Revelation.
And it can only be completed 1 way. So it's best to assume whatever view you hold is wrong rather than right.
The second thing we must understand is that reality corrects our doctrine, not the other way around. We can believe whatever we think is correct until reality debunks it. Then we must humble ourselves and seek a clearer understanding. Many Christians are afraid of this. I think it's because if we admit we were wrong that we feel we discredit God or His Word. God cannot be diminished by our flaws and errors. We're 2000 years removed from Jesus walking on the earth reading text written by people who not only lived in a totally different time period but a different world as well and a totally different culture with a deep history with God. We're going to be wrong about a lot of things we think are true. We need to accept that.
Here's where I usually begin with this topic.
In Leviticus 25:23 God says
23 ‘The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with Me."
The word "sojourn" means a visitor or temporary guest. God says the Promised Land of Israel (verses 1-2) is His alone and that the Jewish people (but all people in general) have no ownership or land rights to sell or bargain with the land.
In 2 Chronicles 6:5-6 God says
5 ‘Since the day that I brought My people out of the land of Egypt, I have chosen no city from any tribe of Israel in which to build a house, that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man to be a ruler over My people Israel. 6 Yet I have chosen Jerusalem, that My name may be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.’
He declares Jerusalem as His City with His name on it.
So let me ask you a question "when did God relinquish He claim on the Land of Israel and the City of Jerusalem?
The answer is never.
So whatever your view of the Jewish people are the biblical reality is that the land and city are His alone, so the question is why has He allowed the Jewish people back into His Land and City after 1800+ years and prospered them to become the 8th superpower in the world? What changed? If we ask better questions we begin to see the heart of God.
In Romans 11:1-2 Paul writes (Post Resurrection) I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Verses 25-27
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
Daniel 9:24 tells us the same that one day the Jewish people will be saved through Jesus the Messiah.
Ezekiel 36:21 says
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again."
Never in Israel's history since Ezekiel penned this has the nation not been divided. Yet God says one day it will be united never to be divided again.
Jeremiah 24:6 says God will bring the Jewish people back to the land and not pluck them out again. We know in 135AD God plucked them out of the land and dispersed them. Then in 1948, He allowed them to come back into the Land and so far they haven't been plucked out again.
The point is if your Eschatology doesn't include the salvation of the Jewish people through Jesus then you'll never understand the topic.
In Part 2 I will debunk every modern-day view to get at the truth. Hopefully, it helps you in your studies.
(Continued in Part 2)
Pretribber here.
yes only pretrib fits. The other positions reframe verses and leaves other verses out.
Great show bros I'm caught up between pre-wrath and Post still studying but great lesson!!!
Eschatologically-we ought call the correct sequence/timing of the Harpazo-the “LAST Trumpet” Harpazo (rapture) position...
As this term LAST TRUMPET
is identified for us by Paul in Scripture.
Whereas,
PreTrib, Mid Trib, Post Trib,
and PreWrath are far more ambiguous terms of arbitrary conceptualization assigned as labels by men...
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 - coming to this verse completely shifted my view of the rapture. Paul also refers to the Lord's trumpet in other verses, but in this verse it specifically says the final trumpet.
@@erichaavisto7802
If we follow the mystery of the Episunagoge (THE GATHERING TOGETHER)=First Resurrection followed by the Harpazo-Scripture gives us the right sequence...
A)
“Behold, I tell you a MYSTERY: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
I Corinthians 15:51-52 NKJV
B)
“having made known to us the MYSTERY of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might GATHER TOGETHER in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him.”
Ephesians 1:9-10 NKJV
C)
“Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless
1) the falling away comes first, and
2) the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,”
II Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV
D)
““Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,...
(ALL AT THE 6th Seal)=Thief in the Night Moment. Sky recedes like a scroll (dimensional portal opens) and people on earth see Christ at the throne. Jesus Christ has now appeared and every eye sees Him... Those who dwell on the earth (followers of the beast kingdom try to hide)
SEE Also 1 Thes 5-Thief in the night does not overtake or surprise Christians because they are WATCHING=knowing the sequence of SIGNS
IE: Abomination of desolation-WHEN YOU SEE-and 6th Seal Cosmic Signs in particular...
The next verse of Matt 24 is not instantaneous. It’s a condensed version of Christ’s actions where the next action is
(AT the 7th Trumpet)
...And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV
E)
Same sequence in Mark 13 with GATHERING TOGETHER
F)
Luke 21 though omits the GATHERING TOGETHER verse and instead tells US TO LOOK UP for our redemption draws near...
G)
“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
I Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV
Mystery Continued-
G)
“but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.”
Revelation 10:7 NKJV
H)
First Resurrection corresponds to the Resurrection of Christ’s two witnesses slain by antichrist as his last real act of power. 42 months of absolute authority is up.
Note: Great Tribulation against the saints is cut short by the 6th Seal but 42 months of antichrist reign goes to the 7th Trumpet. Beast kingdom goes into survival mode during the Trumpets stage... No longer focused on murdering the saints.Number of the martyrs from 5th Seal is reached by the great multitude in Rev 7:9 and following. Fullness of the gentiles has come into Israel and all remnant Israel is saved.
First Resurrection has not happened-yet.
Further note: Window between First Resurrection and Rapture is 45 days as revealed in Daniel 12.
““And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
***Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.”
Daniel 12:11-12 NKJV
30 days to set up image of the beast to begin great Tribulation mark of the beast and image worship and 1,260 days=42 months
1,335 days minus 1,290 days=45 days.
I)
What happens at the 7th Trumpet? Many things...
“Then the seventh angel sounded:
1) Christ is announced He’s taking full possession of the earth to set up His Millennial Reign for 1,000 years which then reaches White Throne Judgment (2nd Death) and then New Heavens and New earth with New Jerusalem bride into eternity.
And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
2) Jesus is now coming
The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Where the 7 Trumpets each announce and progress Christ’s power and authority on earth culminating at the 7th Trumpet, The 7 Bowls decimate the beast Kingdom...
3) Wrath of God begins with the 7 Bowls of the Wrath of God
•The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
4) The dead in Christ are righteously judged in Christ and rewarded/raised at the First Resurrection.
•And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great,
5) The antichrist kingdom is going to be obliterated.
•And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
6) God prominently displays the Ark of the Covenant with Christ’s shed blood as our great High Priest on the mercy seat which signifies God’s eternal promise for our redemption and eternal life in Christ-for our Resurrection bodies...
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.
7) Seven Thunders unsealed?
And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.”
Revelation 11:15-19 NKJV
Any time someone comes up with a "new" Biblical concept, be wary. God doesn't keep us ignorant for hundreds of years for some guy to come up with something never heard of. That's how we got Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. They thought they would fix the text for us. I'm not saying it's to that degree, but he's taken an old teaching (post-trib) and put a new spin on it.
Stick to what the apostles taught, exactly as they're stated. Any adding, subtracting, splitting, changing of the Word is frowned upon by God. (Prov.30:5-6; Ecc.12:11-12; I Cor.4:6; Rev.22:18-19)
I wonder if when these things start happening- if people will fall away then -believing there would have been a rapture before the tribulation. And then being angry- not knowing Gods word- and only wanting their ears tickled just decide to take the mark.
If you haven’t ever fasted, you can’t imagine what it feels like 11 days and beyond not having food. Stand firm.
Pre wrath make the most sense to me. Tho Dr Michael Brown recently comment that teachings that separate rapture and 2nd coming is on the way out cuz that logically wud make it 3 comings of Christ. In the end it revelations wud be debate between pre wrath and post trib. If possible make the it as series of debates/discussions that wud clarify the many presuppositions held by post tribs believers once it is certain pre trib is dead. God bless yall bros.
“The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830.
Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church).
Christian journalist Dave MacPherson has written a book on the subject of the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture. He writes: “We have seen that a young Scottish lassie named Margaret Macdonald had a private revelation in Port Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830 that a select group of Christians would be caught up to meet Christ in the air before the days of Antichrist.”
When Jesus was taken up, how much time did it take? Some scripture are literal, some are metaphor, types, etc. The Holy Spirit will teach you, not man!!
I don't see why we would need to be raptured before God's wrath. I mean, why can't he protect his church during such an event? Is that too hard for him? What about promises like those in Psalm 91??
Marvin Rosenthal wrote an incredible book teaching the Pre- Wrath Rapture in 1990. Its long out of print, but well worth the effort to find one!
Great. I truly agree with Dr. Alan except his view of the Sheep and Goat Judgement.
Thank you for your hosting
He is closer of the different end times teachers, but not quite there. I agree in a 3/4 rapture, but before the bowls. Many scriptures say before the final trumpet. In Rev just after the 6th trumpet a mighty angel comes in the clouds and then in further description before the bowls, an angel reaps the harvest with a sickle. That is the rapture, the gathering!
ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!!!
the rapture is pre-tribulation. The anti-christ cannot be revealed until we are removed. 2thessalnians
I want to see a debate between post trib and prewrath! I believe there is a difference.
What is the difference? Don’t they both place the rapture in Matthew chapter 24?
@Studio54MediaGroup The difference is that post trib occurs after the wrath is poured out by God.
@@truthtransistorradio6716 I meant as far as Matthew 24 for it seems some pre-wrath believers think the rapture is in that chapter:
Post-trib with a 3.5 year trib only as mentioned 3 times in Revelation. The 70 weeks were sequential with zero gaps.
1,000 books read in last year?? Almost 3 books a day? Wow, really?
Lol
Hi remnant guys! Just wondered by any chance is your revelation series available to watch online somewhere Michael?
I would like to watch this as well!
You may notice that the wicked are harvested before the righteous in the parables of Matt. 13. How does that work with prewrath?
This guy is kinda hard to listen to. He is all over the place, but love the different views. I personally believe the rapture happens at the 2nd coming after the Great Tribulation, but b4 God's Wrath. However, I still love listening to the other views.
▪
According to the Christian bible,
The devil comes down first claiming to be jesus/God and deceiving many.
The 'rapture' is a completely false teaching within the Christian community. People pushing it are either being disingenuous, or lazy af.
⬛
@@2NDFLB
Sure the word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible but the concept of the rapture is. However, the idea of a secret rapture where Christians are raptured b4 Tribulation and just disappear is not Biblical at all. The Bible is clear. Jesus promised us persecution/tribulation, and he specifically said after the Tribulaton he will gather his elect from the 4 corners of the world.
Matthew 24: 29-31
29)“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30)Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31)And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will GATHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Thesalonian 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
For many more references:
www.openbible.info/topics/the_rapture
@@LivingWateraide
▪
Yeaaa,,,, but now you're taking this verse and that verse my guy.
Says in the book not to do that.
Says to read it chapter by chapter, verse by verse.
⬛
@@2NDFLB if you want I can post the whole chapter so you can see the context. Most ppl just wouldn't read a whole chapter comment lol. Regardless, the concept is there but I do agree tht the modern view of the rapture is soooo unbiblical. Take a look at some of the early church fathers views on the matter. It's pretty interesting how different they viewed it than we do now. Irenaeus was disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John himself. He was considered one of(if not) the 1st Christian apologists. Tertullian was also a disciple of Polycarp as well. It's crazy how vastly different they viewed things from the Vatican today or from popular Christian American teachings.
@@LivingWateraide
▪
ReGardless., like I said;
The book says not to pick and choose verses.
That is Taking Away from it.
It is what it is, sahn.
⬛
I used to believe that way but God can pour out His wrath without affecting His people. I am 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath and 7th seal which is the same event.
Great discussion. Piper's round table was great... I don't think any of us would mind if you copied that format. 😁
If Christians are raptured at the 6th Seal of Revelation, how then can they be raptured again in First Corinthians 15:52 at the last Trumpet?
2 different sets of Christians
What is the take on the 24 elders being a Heaven with crowns prior to the seals, trumpets, and bowls?
The Lukewarm Christians wouldn’t last five seconds if the red hot Christians got raptured and they had to go through the tribulation.
ahhahahahahaha. That is true, but I will tell you that there are a very few here on earth right now that would make the hottest Christians look luke warm.
Just a question about the 2 witnesses, when will they start prophesying? 1st half or 2nd half, if 2nd half then they will be left out during the rapture that will take place anytime after the AC is revealed . Is this a pre-wrath belief?
The 2 Witnesses prophesy 1260 days before the Last/7th Trumpet.
They are in the 1st half.
Part 2/4
Again I apologize that I will most likely not watch this video in its entirety because the first 5 minutes have enough material for me to type a response. As much as I appreciate the effort to discuss the topic to me it does more damage being wrong than being silent.
Since this is a pre-millennialism perspective video I won't spend time debunking Preterism, or Post-Millennialism.
Just so I'm clear on my position, I am a Believer in Jesus Christ and I hold a pre-millennialism view. However, every sub-view, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib is deeply flawed and so I am here to put aside the terms and simply dissect the Bible.
Before I get into this I must warn you that you will most likely be offended. I tend to offend a lot of people regardless of their eschatological views.
First, let's define some terms. I would describe Eschatology this way. Think about this topic of the end times (Eschatology) as a sub-topic to the greater topic of Bible prophecy. There are basically 3 main worldviews within Eschatology.
Preterism believes that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled by 70AD. The destruction of the Jewish Temple.
Post-millennialism. Which believes that we are in the millennial reign of Jesus now since He reigns from Heaven and that most of the world is going to be saved via the church (kingdom creation) to prepare the earth for His return. (Amillennialism is similar but doesn't require humanity to be saved before Jesus returns.)
Premillennialism which believes just as it sounds pre (before) the millennial reign of Jesus. That between Jesus's resurrection and ascension to His return is the Church Age and then Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom on earth and reigns for 1000 years.
There are subgroups to pre-millennialism -Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib.
Each of these basically centers around when the Rapture will happen in relation to a time period called the 7-year tribulation.
I know confusing right? Well, we are humans after all we like to complicate things, especially biblical things. It makes us feel good about ourselves if we can understand the "deeper" things of the Bible.
So what I am not going to do is deal with each view individually. What I will do is get us to ask better questions and alter our perspective so we might see clearer.
There are many terms that are used in this topic and the ones I head in the first few minutes are Rapture, Tribulation, Great tribulation, Antichrist, Day of the LORD, and others.
I have heard many people over the years say that certain views are only a couple of hundred years old. I have heard people say there is no Rapture because the English word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible or they confuse it with 2 comings of Jesus.
We have documents that show early Church fathers believed certain things. It doesn't make them more right, it just means that some of what we are trying to understand isn't a couple of hundred years old.
Church father Irenaeus wrote in the mid-second century. He was taught under Polycarp, the disciple of the Apostle John, and occasionally saw the Apostle, John. Irenaeus wrote a five-volume work entitled “Against Heresies” against the cults of his day.
“When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, then it is said, ‘There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be.’” Irenaeus “Against Heresies 5.29
Another excerpt is Ephraim 373 AD “…because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to commence be taken to the LORD…” On the Last Times 2-Ephraim the Syrian 373 AD
(excerpts from Ken Johnson's book "The Rapture" -who is an expert on early church doctrine and ancient documents including the Dead Sea scrolls.
What I am going to do is provide you with biblical references and then connect them to a train of thought.
Is there a Rapture? The term Rapture is an English term that is based on the Greek word Harpazo. Harpazo means to violently snatch away to oneself. I picture a parent snatching up their child from the street in the nick of time as a car approaches.
In the Greek, the Bible has many instances of the word Harpazo. But it's the concept I want to focus on.
Jesus in John 14:1-6 says
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Here Jesus is talking about Heaven (His Father's house) and going in advance to prepare a place for us, so that one day He will come to take us to this place prepared in His Father's House (Heaven). It's for those who believe in Him as the ONLY Way there.
Now what's interesting is Jesus says "3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself;..."
This isn't death where our souls go to be with the LORD. This is a 1-time event where Jesus comes to receive us to Himself.
Now the Post-trib view believes that when Jesus returns as He's coming from Heaven we fly up and are transformed and then immediately return with Him. Except Zechariah 14 tells us of Jesus's return.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,...9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-“The Lord is one,” And His name one.
...16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain."
So Jesus returns to reign on earth not in Heaven so when in the prophetic timeline does Jesus come to receive us to Himself to take us to the place He's prepared in Heaven?
It can't be at His 2nd Coming because He comes down and doesn't return to Heaven but reigns on earth.
Now let's talk about this 7-year period. First. I think a major flaw is that there is no such thing as a 7 year Tribulation. There is a 7 year period and a "great tribulation".
But don't take my word for it.
First, where does this 7-year period come from?
Daniel 9:24-27. Verse 24 says
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, (Daniel's people are the Jews and Daniel's holy city is Jerusalem. This is the context).
To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, (the only way to achieve these things is through Jesus alone).
So this 70 weeks, its purpose is to bring the Jewish people to salvation through Jesus and prepare Jerusalem (as we saw in Zechairah 14) To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy."
Verses 25-26 tell us that from the "That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; (7+62=69 weeks not 70)
If we study this out from history the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was in 445BC. Nehemiah 2 and multiple sources confirm it.
So clearly the Messiah (Jesus) didn't come 69 literal weeks (483 days) later in 444BC. So when we study it out we see that each day is 1 year. and 7 years is 1 week and 7 years x 7 weeks is 49 years and 70 weeks is 490 years. Using a Hebrew lunar calendar of 360 days per year we know the time Jesus was crucified and it matches up. We just have to study it out. The point is that from the command to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the Prince (Jesus) is 69 weeks, not 70. We know that the last "week" is 7 years.
We also see in Revelation 11:3
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
(using a Hebrew lunar calendar 1,260 days is exactly 3.5 years)
Rev 11:5 tells us these 2 witnesses are invincible, unable to be killed. Until verse 7.
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
So these 2 witnesses show up and preach for 3.5 years (1,260 days) and then this "beast" rises and kills them.
Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
Revelation 13:4-5
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
42 months = 3.5 years. 3.5 years the 2 witnesses preach then the beast rises and kills them and then is given authority by the Dragon (Satan Rev 12:9) for 3.5 years (42 months) here is the 7 years beginning in Revelation 11.
Hopefully, this is helping paint a clearer picture.
If you can be a little more patient I will need a part 3 but I hope it'll blow the doors wide open on this topic.
(Continued in Part 3)
I appreciate your study! Do you think it is good hermeneutics to separate the 70th week so far away from the rest? This is one of my issues. Thanks.
@@andrealmoseley6575 Thanks for your comment. The Bible actually separates the 70th week from all the rest.
Daniel 9:24
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
We see the first 69 weeks ends with the Messiah the Prince being "cut off" or suffering the death penalty.
God says that after 70 weeks the result will be that Daniel's people the Jews and his holy city Jerusalem will accomplish these things:
" To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,To bring in everlasting righteousness,..."
The ONLY way to make these things happen is through Jesus.
Paul reiterates this in Romans 11:25-27
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
So we see 2 problems if the 70th week
is a continuous period.
1 God says the Jewish people will be saved
at the end of the 70th week. That has never happened.
And 2 that the salvation of the Jewish people comes at the "fullness of the Gentiles"
When you study the phrase out it can also be translated as "completion of the Gentiles".
or the NLT says:
25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,..."
So as you can see Israel and the 70th week will be fulfilled after the full number of Gentiles comes to salvation. Then God will save Israel.
Hopefully, this helps a bit. There are other aspects that can be examined let me know if this was useful.
The issue I think most people have with this topic is first is that we need to understand why. Why does God do all of this? What's the goal? And how each event leads into the next. Once you understand that I think the picture becomes a bit clearer. Take care.
There is a distinct problem with the pre-wrath position which is completely ignored, just as pre-tribbers ignore many problems with their view.
Pre-wrath has the great tribulation cut short by the Lord's return somewhere in the middle of the second half of Daniel's week. That cannot be. The antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming, correct? That means that Lord cannot return until the 42 months of the antichrist's reign is over, because to do so would be the destruction of the antichrist too early. 2 Thess. 2:8 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.”
The great tribulation is not cut short by the Lord's coming but is cut short by the events of the sixth seal and the trumpets. People are terrified and killing Christians will fall by the wayside as they try to save themselves. Those people on the sea of glass who come out of the great tribuation (seen after the sixth seal) are those who overcame the antichrist by their death not by the rapture. Rev. 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” They have robes, because you aren't naked in heaven, but they have not been judged and rewarded yet. That comes later.The great tribulation is the worst holocaust in the history of the world. Who exactly do you think is dying? Those who take the mark? No, they die in the wrath of God later. You'll see the raptured saints who have victory over the beast (vs. overcoming him by their death) on the sea of glass in chapter 15, after the Second Coming in chapter 14.
Nor does the resurrection/rapture occur at the end of the wrath of God in the bowls, at Armageddon. We are not appointed to wrath. Why not look where Paul in his prophetic writings told us right where it is. At the last (seventh) trumpet, Rev. 11:15-19. Look at what occurs in that passage.
First, Christ has begun His reign, so that means it is the end of the 42 months of the antichrist's reign. Therefore it is His Second Coming (which is not seen in detail until after the interlude chapters of 12-14:13 finish what God tells us there). We then have the narrative picked up again from Rev. 11:19 to Rev. 14:14 where we see the actual Second Coming and gathering of the saints. Which is then immediately followed by the wrath of God, which is announced numerous times from 14:17 - chapter 16 as having just come).
Second, we see it is time for the dead (wait, if they are already resurrected, they are no longer dead right? So they are about to be resurrected) to be judged and rewarded (this is the Bema Seat Judgment, for we know the White Throne Judgment of the wicked dead comes after the millennium). That judgment begins after the resurrection, to prepare the saints for the marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-8).
Third, we see the first announcement by heaven that the wrath of God has come. In the sixth seal, the people on earth are crying out that the celestial signs mean that God's wrath has come, but people yell that every time there is a cataclysmic event of nature. It requires heaven announcing it for it to begin. It is not announced until the last trumpet in Rev. 11 and is continued from 14:17 through chapter 16.
And finally, we see the temple of heaven opened up for the first time in Rev. 11:19 so John can see the ark of the testimony. Notice that in chapter 15 it again mentions that the temple has been opened so John can see the ark. That verifies the picking up of the narrative from chapter 11 after the “in the meanwhile” info in chapters 12-13 and the first part of 14 occur.
Then there is the problem, is not the church one of the mysteries of God? Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Another mystery is that the blindness of Israel is lifted when the fulness of the Gentiles (the Church) comes in. Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” But when does the fulness of the Gentiles come in?
Luke 21:22-24 “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles (fulness of the Geniles) be fulfilled.”
Well, it comes in sometime after Jerusalem has been trodden down by the Gentiles after the abomination of desolation. That treading down of Jerusalem continues until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled aka the fulness of the Gentiles or the end of the Church age. So Israel's blindness will not be lifted until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in (the end of the Church age) which continues until the treading down of Jerusalem after the abomination has come to an end.
So when does it end? How long will that treading down continue?
Rev. 11:1-2 “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”
So the treading down of Jerusalem and the temple continues for forty-two months after the abomination. That takes us to the end of Daniel's 70th week, when we know antichrist's reign comes to an end, with the brightness of Christ's coming. So are there verses that tell us that the Church ends then? That Israel's blindness is lifted then? Yes, there are.
Rev. 10:7 “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (7th trumpet), when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” (End of the Church age and time for Israel's blindness to be lifted).
Rev. 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
Zech. 12:10 “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”
This all occurs at the Second Coming when every eye sees Him.
Daniel 12 tells us that from the abomination until it all comes to an end (the end of God's wrath) there are not 1260 days (42 months, 3 ½ years) but 1290 days. An extra 30 days. That is when God's wrath is poured out, and the Bema Seat is taking place in New Jerusalem (a satellite city orbiting the earth which Jesus brings with Him for us to live in - Rev. 12:23-24a “And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it.” It is too big (1500 miles length, width and height) to sit on the earth, and for all the nations to walk in God's light which shines out through this crystal city, it must orbit the earth.
Conclusion: The Second Coming/Resurrection/Rapture occurs at the seventh and last trumpet, right where Paul said it does.
Paul says that our change will occur in a moment, in the twinkling of eye at the last trumpet. Is it possible the resurrection and rapture occurs at the 6th seal and then our change occurs at the 7th trumpet? I've been studying Isaiah 52:10-15 and this sounds like a rapture occurring. But it says it happens slowly and without haste so that every eye can see the salvation of God. Psalm 68:24 prophecies this too. This would support the rapture doesn't occur quickly. It will be a procession which the ungodly will witness and be amazed. So, what happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet? Our change into the incorruptible? Revelation 19:8, Psalm 104:1-4.
@@seasquawker In context, I understand Is. 52 and Ps. 68 as talking about the Day of the Lord, which begins with Second Coming and His wrath and continues through the millennium. I also see this as referring to the Jews (not the Church) who are left after the rapture/resurrection to have to slowly, during God's wrath, come back to Israel from the nations they have been scattered to by the antichrist, which will be a slower procedure. I see Rev. 19 speaking of the Bema Seat where we are given the linen garments to prepare us for the marriage, but I'm not sure how you see Psalm 104:1-4 as having anything to do with the rapture. I see nothing at the sixth seal that indicates a rapture, it is merely the sign God told us would herald the coming wrath, but I do see the rapture at the gathering in Rev. 14:14-16, as I also see it in the Olivet Discourse when the Lord returns. I believe we are changed in the twinkling of an eye to our glorified bodies at the resurrection/rapture event at the Second Coming of the Lord when He pours out His wrath, as the resurrected saints get theirs then, so we should also. I explained much of this in the above comment, so I won't repeat it again here. 2 Thess 2:1-2 makes it clear that the Second Coming, the gathering, and the Day of Christ (aka Day of the Lord) are one event, and other Scriptures show they all occur at the seventh and last trumpet. You don't have to believe this, but I put it out there for folks who might question the status quo of the usual pre-trib belief, who want to research more and find a more Scripturally exegeted understanding of the whole scenario.
@conniemaew
1st Corinthians 15 talks about how just as we bore the image of the man of dust (Adam) we will also bear the image of the heavenly man (Christ). Psalm 104 says that God clothes Himself with light... and that His angels and ministers will also wear light as a garment. Jesus said that in the resurrection, we will be like the angels. Matthew 22:30, Psalm 17:15. So, our change that Paul describes in 1st Corinthians 15 seems to be talking about what we read in Psalm 104. The description of Jesus in Revelation 1:13 is the same as of His angels in Revelation 15:6.
They are so much alike that John even gets confused in Revelation 22:8-9 and thinks the angel he is speaking to is God.
His servants are like a flaming fire: Joel 2:1-11, Psalm 104:4, 2nd Thessalonians 1:7-8.
In a nutshell I believe the rapture of the church is in the 6th seal in the first half of verse 14 when the sky recedes as a scroll when it is rolled up. The church will see some of the very beginning of the wrath but not be affected by it; when there is a great earthquake; and the sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon becomes like blood. The stars of heaven will fall to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
The first four seals are opened on earth by the Lamb by the time Jesus cleanses the temple. I can explain all of what I just stated with scripture.
The seals have already started opening by Jesus. Covid was a seal. Better believe me and be blessed
@@halfsheephalfjesus7357 I believe the disclosure of COVID was a result of the seals of the four horses having been open; but not when the seals began opening. I believe they were open during Jesus's ministry. So yes, the first five seals are open.
Question, Why do we see a Holy Place in the middle of the Daniels 70th week ? Does God dwell in a holy place at this time in Jerusalem? Something has changed... the age of law is now in place. Where as we now live in the age of grace.. certainly disproves any post trib theory
There was a Holy Place in the temple up until 70 AD, but the church began in 33 AD. That's 37 years the church and the temple coexisted.
@@seasquawker God did not dwell in the temple after the curtain was torn. God does not and will not dwell in earthly tents in this dispensation age of grace.
I don't think that we're going back to the age of the law. Well, only for those who reject Christ are still under the law. The Holy Place was a Holy Place long before there was ever a temple there. Genesis 22:14. And so anyone setting themself up as god in that place would be an abomination.
@@seasquawker after the church is taken make no mistake about it, the age of law will take place, thats why Jesus said, Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
He is speaking directly to the Jews, His elect. Israel - the Jews will be going through the tribulation. God has made a covenant with His Elect
@@seasquawker Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
69 weeks have been fulfilled ...
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
(7 years)
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Before the cross was the age of law, 69 weeks filled
one week of 7 yrs (age of law) remains.
*_There are things which must take place_* before the church rises (with immortal spiritual bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:42-54) to meet Jesus "in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:17) "at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52). We can look for those things. Here's one, mentioned by the apostle Paul:
■ "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
Yes, the "man of sin" - the "son of perdition" - will appear before the church is taken up. This is a reference to the "beast" who will reign for 42 months (Revelation 13:5). Paul describes his reign:
■ "Even him, whose coming is after [or like] the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thessalonians 2:9).
Alongside the beast will be a miracle-working "false prophet":
■ "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live." (Rev 13:13,14)
(side note: "maketh fire come down from heaven" sounds similar to what the prophet Elijah did in the Old Testament (1 Kings 18, 2 Kings 1). This "false prophet" may be claiming he *_is_* Elijah, or may be claiming to have the authority of Elijah by virtue of the fact "he maketh fire come down from heaven." Lesson learned ahead of time: don't be deceived by miracles.)
======================
There are more signs to look for before the church rises to meet Jesus. We know that the church is changed to "incorruptible" at Jesus' return for His church. This change happens "at the last trump":
■ "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
"At the last trump" . . . so what about the "trumps" or trumpet-soundings *_before_* that "last trump"??? Can we look for them? Yes.
That "last trump" is the seventh trumpet sounding (Revelation 11:15). These 7 trumpet soundings make up the 7th "seal" or 7th group of events (Revelation 8:1,2). (Just as 7 trumpets preceded the fall of Jericho, the last-days 7 "trumpets" precede the fall of "Babylon the Great" - this world's systems - Rev 18).
The point is this: the 6 trumpets that sound *_before_* the 7th trumpet *_all have events associated with_* *_them_* (Revelation 8:2 up to 11:15) which must take place before the 7th trumpet. We should look for those events to occur before the church is taken up.
===========================
So, does the church rise before, or after, the tribulation? The church rises after the tribulation but before the wrath of God is poured out. Sadly, many make the mistake of assuming the tribulation *_is_* the wrath of God, but it is not.
With four simple steps we can determine whether the "rapture" (rising to meet Jesus) takes place before, or during, or after the tribulation.
1. According to Matthew 24:29 the sun is darkened "immediately after" the tribulation:
■ "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"
2. According to Revelation 6:12 the sun is darkened at the opening of the sixth seal.
■ "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." (Revelation 6:12-14)
So we know that the tribulation is over at the opening of the sixth seal, when the sun is darkened.
3. The resurrection and rapture take place "at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) . . . at the seventh of the seven trumpet soundings that comprise the *_seventh_* seal. The apostle Paul describes this in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54:
■ "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:50-54)
And here is another account, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17:
■ "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17)
4. "Immediately after" the tribulation, the sixth-seal darkening of the sun and moon take place, followed by all the remaining events of the sixth seal (Revelation 6:13 through 7:17). And after that, the first six trumpets of the *seventh* seal (Revelation 8:1 through 11:14) must take place. At the sounding of the "last trump," the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the resurrection and rapture take place.
Obviously, then, the resurrection and rapture are post-tribulation.
Note: Many make incorrect assumptions about the tribulation, thinking it is the wrath of God, or that it is the reign of the beast. It is neither. God's wrath is poured out at the end of the reign of the beast; we know this because it is poured out "upon the men which had the mark of the beast" (Revelation 16:2). In fact, the impending wrath of God is *_announced_* as part of the 7th trumpet . . . the wrath is being announced (Revelation 11:18) even as the church is being taken up. The church obviously will not experience the wrath of God.
The tribulation is not the wrath. The tribulation is over earlier, when the sun is darkened at the opening of the _sixth_ seal. So, what is the tribulation? Apparently, it's a time world war and calamity, so bad that unless it were "cut short" no one would survive (Matthew 24:21,22).
Hi I heard a pastor on here about 12mths or so ago he had written a book about this and tribulations etc and specifically allocated about 1000 copies of it for leadership and these were some of the guys he mentioned. Can you please give me his name.
Cheers thank you.... Memphis
Please please please reach out to James Jacob Prasch, He dives into intra-seal rapture, the guy knows his stuff. He is from moriel ministries
Just a question..how can belivers be persecuted for not taking the Mark of the Beast if we are removed before he is revealed?Does he demand people take the mark before He desecrates the temple which is the mid point of the tribulation?
It will be on the scene for the first 3 and 1/2 years of tribulation but, it will be forced on man during the last 3 and 1/2 years. Getting beheaded will be a way of deliverance for the men left on this earth during that time.The whole church will be in heaven by that point.
Can you let me know what equipment you use? i am interested with the mic, video, and anything other important thing.
Any other important thing: Jesus is coming for his bride! Are you ready? #greatescapeandIcantwait
Before i believed in pre- trib view,but when i studied personally about the timing of the rapture and i want to find strong verses to support the pre-trib view but rather to proved it i find a lot of pre-trib view teaching contradicts the teaching of the bible.Before i thought there are only 3 rapture view- pre ,mid and post trib.During my personal study i come to the conclusion that the Rapture will happen After the opening of the 6th seal and Before the opening of the 7th and last seal of the scroll.All the believers will be Rapture before the wrath of God will be pour out, bec.1Thes.5:9 said that believers are not appointed to God's wrath.This verse in use by pre-trib view but their very big mistake is where in the 7 seals of the scroll God's wrath will be pour out.Rev.chapter 8 clearly said when the Wrath of God starts.
I think Luke 17:29-30 and 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 are the best verses at confirming a 6th seal rapture. Both declare a rest or departure on the day that Jesus is revealed from heaven... on the Day of Vengeance in flaming fire, which we see Isaiah 34:4-8 matches Revelation 6:12-14 exactly. So all of these are describing the same event. But before fire and brimstone can rain down, just as with the example of Lot in Genesis 19, there needs to be a departure, or rest for God's people. We see that the innumerable multitude in Revelation 7 are not only departing after the revealing of Jesus from heaven in Revelation 6:16 where the world mourns and every eye sees Him as described in Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7... but we also see that this innumerable multitude is taken out of the Great Tribulation just before fire and brimstone rains down from heaven in Revelation 8:4-7 during the first Trumpet Judgment. These verses in Luke 17:29-30 and 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 should confirm a 6th seal pre-wrath rapture. I don't see any way around it. These Thessalonians are not Jews. That's the argument we hear as an excuse for Matthew 24 not containing the rapture. They say Matthew 24 is describing the gathering of Jews from around the world after Revelation 19 and the battle of Armageddon. But these Gentile, church-age, Thessalonians are being told their rest will come on the Day of Vengeance... which Isaiah 34:4-8 confirms is the 6th seal with the same signs in sun, moon, and stars and sky receding like a scroll that we see in Revelation 6:12-14. We've got multiple confirmations. 2nd Corinthians 13:1 is satisfied. 2 or 3 witnesses have confirmed it. Luke, Paul, Isaiah, and John. We actually have 4. We can then understand that this is what Jesus was describing in Matthew 24 too. So, we have 5. It should be indisputable at this point.
I feel there is a lot of truth going on in the prewrath thinking. But I have one question I can't figure out: If the great multitude in Rev 7:9-17 are those who have been through the great trib, and then raptured, where are those that were resurrected at the rapture? At the rapture we have those who are asleep who get raptured first, and then those who remain and are alive, together to meet the Lord. I dont see any mention of those resurrected saints. Anyone have thoughts about this? Thanks
Whoever died in Christ is resurrected at the rapture, where those who are alive and remain will also be caught up. You can bet the ones that are alive and remain have been given authority because they have been tested to the point of death. Take that to God in prayer
Always with Jesus. In heaven as Christ's white robed army. Revelation 19:14. To reign with Christ on the earth as priests. Revelation 20:6.
Does Paul's expression, "the last trumpet," in 1 Corinthians 15:52 have any relationship to the trumpets, specifically the seventh trumpet, in Revelation 11:12 at the advent of the seventh trumpet?
Yes. The last trump, which Paul speaks of and 7th trumpet in Revelation, are the same
@@Post-Trib no its the trumpet of jubilee
@@JJ1802 got scripture to back it up?
@@Post-Trib Leviticus 23:24
Numbers 10:9, 31:6 (Representing the war against the Antichrist, Starting in the midst of the year (1260day)
Leviticus 25:9-10
Ten days after the midst of the hebrew year, there is a day of atonement, on that day there is the trumpet, on the 10th day of the 7th month, that would be exactly the day 1335 of daniel 70th week (Daniel 12:12)
1335/7 = 190,71.
The 10th day of the 7th Month is the day 190 of the year.
On that day the last trumpet will be blown and we will be raptured (1. Corinthains 15:52, 1 Thess 4,1)
Paul did not see the viles or trumpets because this concept was only reveleaed to john in heaven.
Paul was not talking about that mentioned in revelation because it was not written till that
@@JJ1802
Do you not understand “Who” is the author of the scriptures! The word of God was not conceived by men! I completely believe that God already knew all about Revelation before God ever told Paul what to write! 🤦🏼🤦🏼🤷🏼🤷🏼
The 6th trumpet which is the 2nd woe ends after the resurrection of the 2 olive trees. So I don't understand how the 7 trumpets can be contained in 42 months when the 6th trumpet alone is 42 months. 🤔
And I do not understand that the antichrist can still be present to kill the olive trees at the end of the 6th trumpet because his reign is supposed to be over at this time ... Why ? Because he begins to reign BEFORE the 6th seal at the midpoint then arrives the 5th trumpet = 5 months the 6th = 42 months, the antichrist is therefore present 47 months on earth and yet I did not count his period of reign during tribulation before the 6th seal because we do not know this duration. The word says he has power over the saints for 42 months so how can he kill them 47 months after the start of his reign if he no longer has permission to harm them? 🤔
And why is he on earth more than 42 months ?🤔
(Excuse my english im french)
I believe that we get raptured after the mid point,,, but I am confused as to where and how in the timeline of the seals and trumpets are we raptured. Are we raptured somewhere between the 5th and 7th seal,,,, is that the last trumpet that is described in 2 corinthians 15? Is last the same as 7th trumpet in revelation?
Before the Bowls of Wrath are poured out on the wicked.
Why is the 70th week of Daniel still being thought to be future? 70 comes after 69, not a huge indeterminate gap. We do not need a future 70th week particularly since Revelation mentions no such thing. Instead of trying to force it upon Revelation, why is not a 3.5 year trib which Revelation actually mentions in three passages not satisfactory? Let us stick with what Scripture actually states.
I'm definitely postmill, but I appreciate the Dr.'s strong stance on his position. He makes a great job explaining and defending his pre-wrath position. It's interesting that he mentions the Didache (if you haven't read it, please do). He mentions that it teaches that the church will go through the tribulation period. This is true. However, considering the time it was most likely written in it was still prior to Nero and the ultimate fall of the temple in 70 AD. I see a problem here, in that, he's still separating the 69th and 70th week in Daniel. To date I, personally, haven't seen anyone biblically demonstrate that there is a "gap" between those weeks. He also clearly mentioned the binding of the "strong man". That is clearly a reference to Satan. Do a study to see what were signs of that binding. I'll leave that there. Much love and much respect to my brethren with whom I disagree. I appreciate the discussion and believe it is very necessary.
The Didache is neither inspired or useful. The oldest copies known are nowhere old enough to be valid in the least. Stick to Scripture.
Jesus said no man knows the day nor the hour of his return..but Daniel said it would be 1260 days from the day that the anti-christ sets up the "abomination of desolation" in the temple. So if Christians do go through the Tribulation, as soon as they see the abomination set up, they will all know the exact day of Jesus's return which according to Daniel, will be 1260 days later. The only way that Christians won't know is...if there is a pre-trib rapture.
A second problem is the 24 elders who are in heaven during the Tribulation. Who are they? Angels? No it says the angels are with them. Leaders of the nation of Israel? No, because God's refining work of his people is not complete. The seven letters to the seven churches tells us who they are because what did God promise to give to those who stayed faithful , when they got to heaven ? A throne, a white robe, and a crown. What are the 24 elders doing? Sitting on thrones, wearing white robes and wearing crowns. This is how you know for certain that the 24 elders represent the church who is in heaven during the Tribulation...the only way to explain this is if there is a pre-trib rapture. There are also many more problems that can't be resolved...unless there's a pre-trib rapture. The problem I see with this topic and many others is Biblical illiteracy, doctrinal illiteracy and failed logic.
Dr Alan Kurschner flat out LIED about Jan Markell changing her tune on rapture. I went to his channel and he turned OFF comments which speaks volumes about his character.
Is there a pre trib, mid, post, prewrath chart with corresponding scripture somewhere so I can make heads or tails of this???
Watch the documentary 7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture he talks about. It’s phenomenal and has tons of helpful graphics and charts that you can screenshot
Important part here in Revelation 7:2-3
The angels have not been permitted to harm the earth yet.
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 says that we receive our rest on the day that Jesus is revealed from heaven with mighty angels in flaming fire to take vengeance.
So if the angels haven't been permitted to do anything yet in Revelation 7:2-3 then how could the wrath of God have begun?
Luke 17:29-30 says just as Lot went out of Sodom on the day fire and brimstone rained down from heaven, even so will it be on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
Genesis 19:22-24
"Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens."
The same as the angels can't do anything until Lot escapes, the angels in Revelation 7:2-3 cannot do anything until God's people are protected.
We see in the remainder of Revelation 7 the 144,000 who are sealed that will stay on earth and we see the innumerable multitude arrive in heaven. They have come out of the Great Tribulation, corresponding with the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27 and the redemption of those who are commanded to 'look up' in Luke 21:25-28. The combination of those in heaven and on earth being gathered sure sounds like a resurrection and a rapture. Also Ephesians 1:10
We then see fire rain down from heaven in Revelation 8, in the exact scenario that Luke 17:29-30 and Genesis 19:22-24 describes.
Please note the signs in sun, moon, and stars in Revelation 6:12-14 and the mourning and fear that fills the people of earth in the following verses 15-17.
This matches with Matthew 24:29-30, Luke 21:25-26, and Mark 13:24-25.
And they see Him who sits upon the throne Revelation 6:16, Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:27, Mark 13:26
This is all just as described in Revelation 1:7 which says that 'every eye will see.'
Then 'sudden destruction' like a thief in the night or like birth pains upon a pregnant woman. 1st Thessalonians 5:2-3, Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 8.
Note how Isaiah uses the same analogy as Paul in 1st Thessalonians 5 to a 'woman in labor' in conjunction with the day of the Lord and the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars. Isaiah 13:6-10. Tying all this together with Matthew 24:29-44 and the thief in the night analogy.
Also Joel 2:31-32 which has the same exact wording as Revelation 6:12-14 with the sun turning black and the moon to blood. Another analogy to a 'thief' in Joel 2:9. And a deliverance in verse 32.
One more thing stands out, excuse the pun...
Revelation 6:17 "Who is able to stand?"
Luke 21:36
Revelation 7:9
Psalm 76:7-10
Arm of the Lord made bare in the eyes of all the nations (every eye will see) along with a command for those who bear the vessels of the Lord to depart.
Isaiah 52:10-12
Flee from Babylon, it's the time of the Lord's vengeance
Revelation 18:4, Jeremiah 51:6
Come My people, enter your chambers and close your doors behind you. Hide yourself as for a little moment, until the indignation is past.
Isaiah 26:19-21
Matthew 25:10
Exodus 12:13
'The destroyer'
Exodus 12:23
Revelation 9:11
Ezekiel 9:1-11
Isaiah 54:16-17
The destroyer cannot harm those hiding in their house or chamber marked by the blood of the Lamb, nor those who have the seal of God on their forehead. Revelation 9:4
Pre wrath of the Lamb is correct but pre face of Him who sits on the Throne is incorrect.
WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF "THE TRIBULATION"?
Have you invited Dalton Thomas and/or Joel Richardson to speak?
I love listening to "scholars" bumble and stumble when they don't know what they are talking about. It's painful to listen to someone struggle through their answers when I have the correct answer sheet right here in front of me.