10:32 fafnir is a fantastic example of a bad version of this kind of move, a decent version of this kind of move and a great version of this kind of move +r fafnir is pretty bad in most respects, can't be easily used to start pressure, can be minus on hit and is almost completely outclassed by other moves in sol's own toolset xrd fafnir is a juiced af neutral, offense and combo tool that can be used as a combo starter, combo filler and can be used almost anywhere on screen strive fafnir is a decent pressure starter and combo ender but is risky to use in neutral
I would put command grab at S tier, maybe even put it at S+ with lariat. There's a reason why grapplers tend to be low tier to compensate. Mobile grapplers like Kouma or half the KOF roster are usually pretty good exactly because they don' t have grappler weaknesses. It's so good they usually have much lower damage to compensate.
Cyberbots fullmetal madness is a game where everyone has crazy mobility and the two top tiers are vice and tarantula, theyre the most fucked up grapplers ive seen in any fg
It all depends on the risk/reward of the command grab. Going back to the ancient times of Super Turbo you have S+ tier in both lack of risk and potential reward: E Honda and T.Hawk's frame 1, 0 animation command grab that you can input while never actually stopping blocking is probably the most 0 risk thing in all of fighting games, and Zangief's loopable inescapable SPD Oki that means that as long as you don't drop it you literally win the game off of a single command grab. Comparing that to something like Honda's command grab in SF6, where you do get a chunk of damage from it but are reset to neutral after, and if the opponent reads it you eat a full jump-in combo meaning that more often than not you're going to see it specifically used to close a round out rather than consistently using it during the match.
Most recent example of autoguard/armor being very strong is Kouma in Melty Blood Type Lumina. Once he pulls up with 22C, it's his turn and he can run his game on you. Extremely strong character. Check out ScrawtVermillion's Kouma.
The last time autoguard armor was a game dominating force I remember is when it was passively applied instead of move based. Like Marvel 2 Sentinel getting multiple chances to block high/low, or gold war machine being able to swing no matter what.
@@QuantemDeconstructor Honestly I count Secret Garden to be more of a summon than a slow projectile. It's very much in the same family: You get a knockdown, summon your projectile and run your mix, same as a lot of other delayed summon type moves.
@@QuantemDeconstructor a lot of fat was cut, the original vid was like 1 hour 30 min and I listed a lot of extra examples, I just didn't think it was necessary for YT
I do think there could be a conversation around lariats. I think the buffs lariats have gotten over the years is directly proportional to the nerfs made to full screen fireballs. Developers want people to be able to get around fireball zoning, and the most obvious way to fix this is by giving characters really good lariats. It is super obvious how to make lariats weaker, but I think developers are unsure how else to address fireball zoning in certain types of games.
Disregarding degenerate neutral skipping / full screen punish Uskills in the new game I think GBVS evade and crossover are good examples of ways to sanely address fireball zoning
Great video. Very fun thought experiment. Obviously any given type of move can be good or bad but it's fun to think about overall in what I might want in a character. I might argue resource management getting it's own tier in C or even "meant to balance" The tricky argument is that having to spend a move (often taking a risk in neutral or giving up oki) to manage a resource, it's intended as a balancing mechanic. The moves they ENABLE are often VERY strong. However raw, pure resource moves are intended to be the risk for that reward. Obviously this is ignoring combo-moves like Nago bite (command grab AND resource management). But in terms of JUST resource? They're definitely not meant to be "good" on their own. Also unrelated you picking KEN for hadoken and RYU for shoryuken is irrationally bothering me lmao. Not ACTUALLY, but Ken's always had the firey DPs and Ryu usually had red fireball or now stuff like denjin lmao. Some hidden god-tier engagement bait right there.
One interesting move that kind of breaks the mold of "armor moves not being good" is in Them's Fightin' Herds. A character named Texas has a command run that has two hits of armor, and effectively also functions as a "mixup" special, due to having multiple followups. TWO hits of armor, a safe launcher followup, an unsafe but fast followup that can be used to frametrap or punish moves that the armor absorbs, or he can run~stop into a highly damaging command grab. It seems pretty simple overall, but it's unironically one of the roughest mixup scenarios in the game, because the counterplay options available to the defender are very poor, AND this move functions extremely well in neutral on top of being a strong pressure tool.
What tier do zoning specials come in? Moves that specifically land in a specific distance away. Dizzy's Ice spear, Eddie's drills, Cagliostro's spears etc.
I feel like "target zoning" will always be a little less strong than fireballs just because it's not as fire and forget. unless they have strong properties like goenitz tornado taking up an entire slice of screen space I think a plain old fireball will do better in most cases
with good command grabs you forgot to mention the command grabs with any type of invul(Talbain Command grab, Iori Scum Gale, Potemkin buster) where they are extra broken/f1 reversals but they really see saw between being super strong and just ok
Flash Kicks and Sonic Booms aren't just "dp's and fireballs on a different input" the decision making you have to do with a flash kick vs a dp is completely different (cant be crosscut, cant use on reaction etc.) . it affects how you interact with the game on almost every level they are 100% worth distinguishing for something like this.
Happy chaos is always brought up in thr auto zoning, but another example that sticks out to me is Super Baby 2 in DBFZ with all of his ki blasts tracking on whiff and on block can be chained into essentially full screen block strings.Hes super oppressive especially if depending on your team.
The best thing about traps, delayed fireballs, puppets, etc., is the power of being able to represent a threat without committing, and the ways in which your opponent is forced to deal with it. Placing down a trap forces your opponent into a set of options. They either avoid the trap entirely, or have to do specific moves at specific spacings to delete the trap. You're effectively cutting your opponent's options down into a predictable box just by setting the trap/slow fireball/puppet. Bonus points if the hitbox of the special does not disappear when you block/get hit. Nothing is more infuriating than fighting a character who can attack without committing, who can punish you while you're putting them in blockstun, etc. The power of hitting without committing is incredible, because it's all reward and no risk.
LK knows lariats are cheap! My favorite setup or mixup I've ever did was UMvC3 Vergil (DT) stinger (which is a lariat) whiff cancel into teleport with disrupter assist which turned full screen into a legit 50/50 mixup within a blink of an eye. I had a friend who legit would upset whenever I did it. Good times! XD
>Ramlethal for Rekka okay I think this is the biggest hatecrime against SNK I've ever seen since Aruze bought them out and scrapped them for Pachinko parts in 2000
sorry, I tried to make sure I used shots/examples from games that I've played. This year a big goal of mine is are to try some more stuff. I'm going to try the new Garou so I can learn a bit about SNK stuff, try Tekken 8 to fill in some 3d knowledge, etc.
@@LordKnightfgc Don’t worry I was joking if the comparison to SNK’s murder wasn’t clear enough hyperbole, I just thought not going with Kyo/Iori rekkas or Geese’s predictabo when they’re easily the most iconic examples of those attacks in the genre was kinda wack, I can get sticking with the stuff you’re familiar with even with the photos just to be safe though. Glad to see the Garou plans, always happy to see people try to get into SNK
SF6 Blanka has the movement, (slide, rainbow ball, coward crouch, hops) a "dive kick" of sorts (OD air blanka ball), and a two step item throw (blanka chan) oh...and an almost full screen command grab!
The biggest thing they did to nerf DPs in Strive was give them to only 6 characters out of the 26 character roster. It's crazy how rare they are in GG compared to other games like SF.
The problem with ranking all command grabs in one is that some of them are zangeif's running grab and some are 3s makoto's neck breaker :P (but i guess that applies to all of these)
A good dive kick is so amazing in every game. The only reason it isn't first is probably because you haven't experienced it. Check out 2nd impact akuma for broken dive kicks. I mean, any dive kick is generally pretty good unless the developers purposely make it bad.
You probably could have merged Ball Set and Summons into a single category considering they do something very similar (put something on the screen you can play around with), aren't particularly common in fighting games, and just so happened to be right next to each other on the tier list anyways.
If we are talking Parries like Geese Howard style then easily S+ if it's 3rd strike Parries B tier Shout out to command grabs that animations are just a combo and not a grab at all.
I would definitely differentiate flash kicks and sonic booms from regular projectiles. The way they are imputed and their weakness and strength are really different and play into how we play with or against in different ways than regular projectiles. Plus they are consistent between games. Those strength and weakness are similar from game to game.
You say you shouldn't have used Piccolo since it tracks but i def see the vision, it does the same thing in practice since DB is so mobile; if they just went in a straight line it'd be like a non-issue
Not sure if these went under the categories you said but what about healing moves, command dashes, and moves that buff you like iron fist. Where would you rate those.
I feel like there's two missing. First is Crowd control. Moves that move or interrupt the opponent. Think Scorpion's "get over here", Tien's Chaiotzu stun, etc. Second is passive DOT specials (mostly in mk) where you put something on the ground that does damage over time if the opponent stands on it.
Did you select for this to not show up in sub boxes? This video didn't show up in mine for some reason. Probably doesn't matter much since I'm one of the only people that actually uses them though.
Hey LK, it seems like a teir list isn't the right sort of chart to show the information you're trying to communicate. Maybe something with the average strength as well as the amount of variance between versions.
HC autozoning was S++ bullshit tier before fullscreen forced counterhit blue burst was a thing. I hate burst safe kits. not moves, *kits* - if it's a specific move that is used mid combo, I can wait for something not burst safe. if your entire fucking kit, y'know, *SHOOTING IN A RETICLE ON SCREEN THAT AUTO-AIMS* is done while being entirely burst safe, get it out of the fucking game. glad the devs removed that problem.
I mean this in the most respectful way ever. This feels worthless. I guess this allows someone to gauge the potential power of a move without any context or info just by seeing it, but I feel like any kind of move can be any level of good. Tbh I didn’t watch the whole thing so if you said this my B, I was impatient
Template here if you wanna make your own and join the discourse! - tiermaker.com/create/special-move-tier-list-15191239
(also pls subscribe)
10:32 fafnir is a fantastic example of a bad version of this kind of move, a decent version of this kind of move and a great version of this kind of move
+r fafnir is pretty bad in most respects, can't be easily used to start pressure, can be minus on hit and is almost completely outclassed by other moves in sol's own toolset
xrd fafnir is a juiced af neutral, offense and combo tool that can be used as a combo starter, combo filler and can be used almost anywhere on screen
strive fafnir is a decent pressure starter and combo ender but is risky to use in neutral
I would put command grab at S tier, maybe even put it at S+ with lariat. There's a reason why grapplers tend to be low tier to compensate. Mobile grapplers like Kouma or half the KOF roster are usually pretty good exactly because they don' t have grappler weaknesses. It's so good they usually have much lower damage to compensate.
Especially if command grab is an SPD which tend to be 1-5 frames
yesh but the cmd grb loses u oki a lotta the time. like no safejump
Cyberbots fullmetal madness is a game where everyone has crazy mobility and the two top tiers are vice and tarantula, theyre the most fucked up grapplers ive seen in any fg
To strengthen your point: 3rd Strike Yun
It all depends on the risk/reward of the command grab. Going back to the ancient times of Super Turbo you have S+ tier in both lack of risk and potential reward: E Honda and T.Hawk's frame 1, 0 animation command grab that you can input while never actually stopping blocking is probably the most 0 risk thing in all of fighting games, and Zangief's loopable inescapable SPD Oki that means that as long as you don't drop it you literally win the game off of a single command grab.
Comparing that to something like Honda's command grab in SF6, where you do get a chunk of damage from it but are reset to neutral after, and if the opponent reads it you eat a full jump-in combo meaning that more often than not you're going to see it specifically used to close a round out rather than consistently using it during the match.
Most recent example of autoguard/armor being very strong is Kouma in Melty Blood Type Lumina. Once he pulls up with 22C, it's his turn and he can run his game on you. Extremely strong character. Check out ScrawtVermillion's Kouma.
The last time autoguard armor was a game dominating force I remember is when it was passively applied instead of move based. Like Marvel 2 Sentinel getting multiple chances to block high/low, or gold war machine being able to swing no matter what.
You sir need to suffer MKX
Honestly surprised your mind didn't immediately go to Raven for the slow projectile on knockdown, that shit was/still is evil
Or Secret Garden, a move so strong it made Milia win a ton of matchups the second it got set up
@@QuantemDeconstructor Honestly I count Secret Garden to be more of a summon than a slow projectile. It's very much in the same family: You get a knockdown, summon your projectile and run your mix, same as a lot of other delayed summon type moves.
@@kevingriffith6011 Yeah I can see that, makes sense to me
@@QuantemDeconstructor a lot of fat was cut, the original vid was like 1 hour 30 min and I listed a lot of extra examples, I just didn't think it was necessary for YT
@@LordKnightfgc Yeah the video ended up being a golden length, I agree with cutting extra examples
I do think there could be a conversation around lariats. I think the buffs lariats have gotten over the years is directly proportional to the nerfs made to full screen fireballs. Developers want people to be able to get around fireball zoning, and the most obvious way to fix this is by giving characters really good lariats. It is super obvious how to make lariats weaker, but I think developers are unsure how else to address fireball zoning in certain types of games.
Disregarding degenerate neutral skipping / full screen punish Uskills in the new game I think GBVS evade and crossover are good examples of ways to sanely address fireball zoning
Great video. Very fun thought experiment. Obviously any given type of move can be good or bad but it's fun to think about overall in what I might want in a character.
I might argue resource management getting it's own tier in C or even "meant to balance"
The tricky argument is that having to spend a move (often taking a risk in neutral or giving up oki) to manage a resource, it's intended as a balancing mechanic. The moves they ENABLE are often VERY strong. However raw, pure resource moves are intended to be the risk for that reward.
Obviously this is ignoring combo-moves like Nago bite (command grab AND resource management). But in terms of JUST resource? They're definitely not meant to be "good" on their own.
Also unrelated you picking KEN for hadoken and RYU for shoryuken is irrationally bothering me lmao. Not ACTUALLY, but Ken's always had the firey DPs and Ryu usually had red fireball or now stuff like denjin lmao. Some hidden god-tier engagement bait right there.
One interesting move that kind of breaks the mold of "armor moves not being good" is in Them's Fightin' Herds. A character named Texas has a command run that has two hits of armor, and effectively also functions as a "mixup" special, due to having multiple followups. TWO hits of armor, a safe launcher followup, an unsafe but fast followup that can be used to frametrap or punish moves that the armor absorbs, or he can run~stop into a highly damaging command grab. It seems pretty simple overall, but it's unironically one of the roughest mixup scenarios in the game, because the counterplay options available to the defender are very poor, AND this move functions extremely well in neutral on top of being a strong pressure tool.
Another banger by LordKnight
What tier do zoning specials come in? Moves that specifically land in a specific distance away. Dizzy's Ice spear, Eddie's drills, Cagliostro's spears etc.
Non-auto zoning past few worse than a full screen fireball at least IMO
I feel like "target zoning" will always be a little less strong than fireballs just because it's not as fire and forget. unless they have strong properties like goenitz tornado taking up an entire slice of screen space I think a plain old fireball will do better in most cases
with good command grabs you forgot to mention the command grabs with any type of invul(Talbain Command grab, Iori Scum Gale, Potemkin buster) where they are extra broken/f1 reversals but they really see saw between being super strong and just ok
we LOVE armored argentinian back breaker in this house
SF4 Zangief could actually use SPD as a reversal because it was 2 FRAME startup lmao
Fafnir
Flash Kicks and Sonic Booms aren't just "dp's and fireballs on a different input" the decision making you have to do with a flash kick vs a dp is completely different (cant be crosscut, cant use on reaction etc.) . it affects how you interact with the game on almost every level they are 100% worth distinguishing for something like this.
23:59 “one zoner, they got some weird defensive option, one extra thing, and one set up option”
JP entered the chat. 😂
Good video, you actually couldve used akuma for like half of the images for the specials
Hado, DP, Divekick, Demon Flip... ?
Happy chaos is always brought up in thr auto zoning, but another example that sticks out to me is Super Baby 2 in DBFZ with all of his ki blasts tracking on whiff and on block can be chained into essentially full screen block strings.Hes super oppressive especially if depending on your team.
The best thing about traps, delayed fireballs, puppets, etc., is the power of being able to represent a threat without committing, and the ways in which your opponent is forced to deal with it. Placing down a trap forces your opponent into a set of options. They either avoid the trap entirely, or have to do specific moves at specific spacings to delete the trap. You're effectively cutting your opponent's options down into a predictable box just by setting the trap/slow fireball/puppet. Bonus points if the hitbox of the special does not disappear when you block/get hit. Nothing is more infuriating than fighting a character who can attack without committing, who can punish you while you're putting them in blockstun, etc.
The power of hitting without committing is incredible, because it's all reward and no risk.
LK knows lariats are cheap! My favorite setup or mixup I've ever did was UMvC3 Vergil (DT) stinger (which is a lariat) whiff cancel into teleport with disrupter assist which turned full screen into a legit 50/50 mixup within a blink of an eye. I had a friend who legit would upset whenever I did it. Good times! XD
>Ramlethal for Rekka
okay I think this is the biggest hatecrime against SNK I've ever seen since Aruze bought them out and scrapped them for Pachinko parts in 2000
Man Hakumen for counter too that’s just wack
I've seen people call hcb,f+x the Guilty Gear Input it puts me in a state of shock
sorry, I tried to make sure I used shots/examples from games that I've played. This year a big goal of mine is are to try some more stuff. I'm going to try the new Garou so I can learn a bit about SNK stuff, try Tekken 8 to fill in some 3d knowledge, etc.
I've actually played a bunch of KoF and I still think Hakumen for counter. That's essentially his whole game plan. Geese just has his as a bonus.
@@LordKnightfgc Don’t worry I was joking if the comparison to SNK’s murder wasn’t clear enough hyperbole, I just thought not going with Kyo/Iori rekkas or Geese’s predictabo when they’re easily the most iconic examples of those attacks in the genre was kinda wack, I can get sticking with the stuff you’re familiar with even with the photos just to be safe though. Glad to see the Garou plans, always happy to see people try to get into SNK
SF6 Blanka has the movement, (slide, rainbow ball, coward crouch, hops) a "dive kick" of sorts (OD air blanka ball), and a two step item throw (blanka chan) oh...and an almost full screen command grab!
Had no idea LK played DiveKick 😂
I think I would have separated command dashes and rekkas.
Also feel like we forgot installs.
decided to not include supers so this wouldn't be like 2 hours hahaha
@@LordKnightfgc I mean Installs don't have to be tied to supers, IE Vira, although that one's a command grab
The biggest thing they did to nerf DPs in Strive was give them to only 6 characters out of the 26 character roster. It's crazy how rare they are in GG compared to other games like SF.
The problem with ranking all command grabs in one is that some of them are zangeif's running grab and some are 3s makoto's neck breaker :P (but i guess that applies to all of these)
which command grab is stronger in your opinion?
A good dive kick is so amazing in every game. The only reason it isn't first is probably because you haven't experienced it. Check out 2nd impact akuma for broken dive kicks. I mean, any dive kick is generally pretty good unless the developers purposely make it bad.
Move is good unless it's bad 🤓
@@user-cc3ef7qh1x ah yes, the floor is made of floor
There are games where wakeup command grabs are really good
I only play characters that have DPs or DP adjacent moves.
You probably could have merged Ball Set and Summons into a single category considering they do something very similar (put something on the screen you can play around with), aren't particularly common in fighting games, and just so happened to be right next to each other on the tier list anyways.
good vid idea!! would love a smash bros theory vid, like on neutral or idk
If we are talking Parries like Geese Howard style then easily S+ if it's 3rd strike Parries B tier
Shout out to command grabs that animations are just a combo and not a grab at all.
4:15 bro almost started talking about bike key lmfao
"For one person only"
Flux punching the air rn
for some reason a lunging mid is just so strong that it defined a game's meta
I think sways could have a place in this
I think about like deejay’s and slayer’s sways
I would definitely differentiate flash kicks and sonic booms from regular projectiles. The way they are imputed and their weakness and strength are really different and play into how we play with or against in different ways than regular projectiles.
Plus they are consistent between games. Those strength and weakness are similar from game to game.
no run through/sideswitch? leo, jubei, neir 66M or would that be mixup?
Too similar to mixup/demon flip type moves
I guess it's pretty rare that they're special moves but what about guard cancels like +r Baiken or even xrd Baiken to some degree?
8:19 lk does focus
Valk's wolf throw functions as a normal throw, they can tech it
In earlier versions of Blazblue (was it just Continuum Shift?), it was a command grab that couldn't be teched.
You say you shouldn't have used Piccolo since it tracks but i def see the vision, it does the same thing in practice since DB is so mobile; if they just went in a straight line it'd be like a non-issue
Actually charge moves have a time disadvantage
Not sure if these went under the categories you said but what about healing moves, command dashes, and moves that buff you like iron fist. Where would you rate those.
Command grab is just a mix up special. No idea why they're separated
So does tatsu count as a lariat?
Screw this. Make a breakdown video on Rat's insane Millia run from tns this week.
I feel like there's two missing. First is Crowd control. Moves that move or interrupt the opponent. Think Scorpion's "get over here", Tien's Chaiotzu stun, etc. Second is passive DOT specials (mostly in mk) where you put something on the ground that does damage over time if the opponent stands on it.
We don't use MK for examples here
@@blooddumpster3427 I literally can't think of another game that has specials where you create a damaging AOE on the ground (except injustice) 😭
@blooddumpster3427 I thought mk a fighting game
Isn't a damage AOE on the ground just a trap ?
@@jeromenancyfr Nah cause it doesn't do any interruptions. It only does chip.
What about whatever Arakune does with the bugs?
Did you select for this to not show up in sub boxes? This video didn't show up in mine for some reason. Probably doesn't matter much since I'm one of the only people that actually uses them though.
yah a bunch of people kept sending me vids about doing that so I tried it here to see what would happen
I love air fireballs :)
Lmao @ using the Daigo/Gamerbee match where he umeshoryu'd him 80 times in a row for DP
Do you consider Install moves mode changes? Dragon Install, FuRinKaZan, etc
Those are Supers, this is a Specials tier list
Happy chaos be like oOoooowooooOooooo😂
Hey LK, it seems like a teir list isn't the right sort of chart to show the information you're trying to communicate. Maybe something with the average strength as well as the amount of variance between versions.
Where’s charge 😢
charge what? charge fireball? charge dp? Percival stock charge?
LordKnight do you goon or nah
This is Hella biased and every single move here highly variable based on frame data. So every move can go higher or lower based on its frame data.
HC autozoning was S++ bullshit tier before fullscreen forced counterhit blue burst was a thing.
I hate burst safe kits. not moves, *kits* - if it's a specific move that is used mid combo, I can wait for something not burst safe. if your entire fucking kit, y'know, *SHOOTING IN A RETICLE ON SCREEN THAT AUTO-AIMS* is done while being entirely burst safe, get it out of the fucking game.
glad the devs removed that problem.
I like my own comment
Hi
Bright 🍬 😅💋
I mean this in the most respectful way ever. This feels worthless. I guess this allows someone to gauge the potential power of a move without any context or info just by seeing it, but I feel like any kind of move can be any level of good. Tbh I didn’t watch the whole thing so if you said this my B, I was impatient
Think this video just exists for the lariat rant at the end lol
Another banger by LordKnight
Another banger by LordKnight