Check For Broken Rings
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- The 390 in our 1972 Ford Truck is sick.
Episode 562
the 390 in our Ford F100 Restoration started running poorly. We thought a tune up would help. 60 psi in cylinder 1 said otherwise. We use a leak down tester to find out: is it the heads or the rings?
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Don't give up on the 390!
Honestly I’d like to see a “chase it and see where it goes” approach. Pull the engine, check the heads, check the rings, see if you can rehabilitate the engine. Try to avoid the “while you’re at it” full rebuild.
Hi Duane, absolutely! IMO also, the only way to go!
Good luck on your next adventure. 351 has merit but the 390 is there and all the stuff that makes it work is already on it.
Keep the 390 Jeff! The FE has a coolness factor that the 351W just won’t give you.
The sound of an FE with the pedal to the floorboards is hard to beat!!!
I’d pop the heads and go from there. If there was no substantial blow by, I’d suspect a burnt valve as some others have mentioned. It might not be doomsday!
The 360 in my ‘68 F100 will eventually get built out to a 390, or one swapped in its place.
Good luck, and can’t wait to see what you find! 👍🏻
Gotta love projects!! They keep us young!!
Yeeeah! Let's see you guys pull that 390 and rebuild it. =) Then I'll have a nice step by step to reference if I ever get around to buying one.
Hello Jeff and Cam! Concerning your 390 issues, being a Medium/intuitive/empath, I channeled Henry Ford and Edsel also. They told me to tell you to fix the 390 and keep it in the truck. They said NO Windsor. Edsel said keep and fix what needs fixing or him and pops will come down there and haunt you guys. lol Thanks for sharing! Cheers from Motown/Dearborn home of Henry Ford and Ford Motor Company. Edsel too.
Yeah I talked to my grandpa as well, he agreed with you. Said you're a pretty cool dude too.
@@AutoRestoMod Thanks for the kind words Jeff. Tell Grandpa HE is the cool dude!
My brother worked as a parts delivery/pickup guy back in the 80s at a machine shop. They built him a 390 gt engine for a 66 Fairlane GT. Fastest car I ever road in. If the windows were down you had to hold the headliner up or it would suck it down on you when you were racing. Even replace the rods and still did it. You gave me chills on the last video saying it came out of a 66 Fairlane GT. Please fix that engine!!!!!! The world needs it! It may correct some of this crazyness
We'll see if I thought that 390 in the Galaxy would change the world the way it is right now brother I would rebuild it in a heartbeat.. As it is we're still gonna rebuild it anyway lol
Since elimination of lead in fuel, FE are notorious for burned valves. Last time I pulled heads on my 428, three were burned(off once before). in 54 years(sept), that engine is yet to have pistons out of block. If rings were that bad, there would be a massive amount of blowby. Probably have to tie dipstick in place. Rarely are rings/cylinders failed when the other six have 170+ psi. I'd have the new heads reworked for hardened seats.
As stated, real GT heads have 14 exhaust manifold bolt holes, Cobra Jet 16.
Jeff you should rebuild the 390. The cost of rebuilding the 351, swapping out springs, engine pedestals, getting another transmission, modifying the driveshaft to fit, redoing the exhaust to fit the 351, changing the radiator to work with the 351w, it would cost less to rebuild the 390. Lentech I believe makes an aod transmission than bolts to an fe and there's adapters as well for many overdrive transmissions that will bolt to an fe (aod, 4r70w, and even 6r80 6 speed automatic from newer f150s). Gas mileage wise, I think you can get the same gas mileage as a 351w with a fresh healthy 390. I'm sure Barry Robotnick would agree. But it's your truck Jeff😄. If you do go the 351w route, I'd recommend a 94 and newer roller 351. You and Cam have a good day and try to keep cool this week. I can only imagine how hot it's going to be down there, ( supposed to be 100° up here in Delaware)
I should have read your reply before I typed my similar book. I will say this, if his truck was a 360, I would say use 390 crank and rods, as block should be same. I think that is how ford got extra 30 cubes and more torque, was crank and rods. The only part I’m not up on now is how much fe pistons cost.p nowadays.
Sounds to me like there's nothing to loose when you open it up to take a look first. Then decide what to do. I agree that a 351 would be cool, but like others have mentioned, it's not a perfect drop in and it's the little things that are gonna drive you crazy again. Or should I say even more at this point? Lol. Either way, I'll be here watching
Hate to hear the bad news about the truck. I like the FEs...so my vote is to fix the 390!
I'd like to see if you could rebuild this in house. Thanks for the video.
Germany votes for the 390 😀
Rebuild the 390!!!!!!
390’s are the beasts that eats the chicken that lays the golden eggs.
I have seen on the FE engines with the free floating wrist pin.The pin clip would break and the wrist pin would walk out into the cylinder wall and couse low compression and oil burning.When I worked at the machine shop back in the day.I sleeved cylinders on many 360/390 blocks.Also running unleaded fuel. Valves would hammer out the valve seats .
I've looked the cylinders on this engine and they seemed to be in good shape
I would like to see the 390 retained 👍
It's not the original 39 but we will be putting a 390 back in it.
Hey there gents, my vote is try to fix it, on the cheap.. A check and mild freshening of the heads.
Pull the engine, New rings if the pistons are ok.
New gaskets and let's see where the chips fall.?
After all, isn't seeing a figurative car crash, what's you guys is all about !?!?!?!?! Can't wait to see watch ya come up with... Thumbs up 😘
Hi Jeff .Does the 390 have excessive blow by ?If rings are that bad , I would think the blow by would be evident . Good luck .
Keep,the 390!!!!!
That's our plan
I was sitting here when it dropped LOL!!
The thing to remember is torque, as well. That 390 makes substantially more stock. I'd keep it.
I agree, it looks like the 390 is goin to stay put
@@AutoRestoMod :)
@@AutoRestoMod
Yeah!!!!!!
A small funnel with a length of hose helps to probe for sounds.
That is an awesome idea! I had not thought to do that
Since I can’t afford to rebuild my 390 (putting a windsor in a 68 torino) it would be nice to see what a 390 rebuild looks like!
On the way!
I'd like to see a 351, (maybe with a "small-ish" supercharger?), dropped in, just for fun. On the other hand, I've never had an opportunity to rebuild a 390, so seeing that done would be quite a treat, as well.
Anymore on this motor? Searching on the channel and I don’t think I see anything. Would love to know more. I have a 76 f150 burning a lot of oil and I’m going to be doing some of the test you guys have showed. Thank you for these. I hope there will be more on this 390!
You did pour oil into that cylinder., also that would be a transmission change also with anything other than a FE.
I'd like to see a budget style rebuild.
We are definitely considering it
So yeh your looking at my road that I have been through with my 72 390
Please don't say that I've heard the frustration in your voice when we've talked on the phone lol
@@AutoRestoMod I think you will be all right. Mine had issues when I bought it as a spare.
Partner with Hargerty to do an engine rebuild!
Lol that would be really cool if Haggerty would actually answer the telephone when we call him about ads and stuff.
Did you have the throttle wide open ? That can skew a compression test. Oil in the low cylinders is the best way to discern between rings or valves.
Yes we did.
The small block frame pearch mounts are also different
There is no advantage running a "GT" head here. That term only means that the casting in question is drilled for the 14-bolt exhaust manifolds that were used on shock tower cars. The same heads and manifolds are used on 2V engines in tower cars. C8-H's are the standard FE head from '68 to '71, and the ports and combustion chambers are the same throughout. Ford juggled compression by using pistons with different dish values (deeper on 2V). 8-hole H heads on full-size cars are the same. D2TE heads, which were original on the truck, have the same ports and chambers as the C8-H, so there is no advantage to a swap. 14-hole C6 and C7 heads are, again, the same as their 8-hole versions. The GT exhaust manifolds do flow better than the standard logs.
I'd like to hear from anybody as to what you think costs so much more to rebuild on an FE that makes everybody shake in their boots at the prospect.
Agreed
@@AutoRestoMod Excellent! Your check is in the mail. 😎
You also notice that the exhaust port is positioned lower than for example astandard c8ae-h head, this was done in order to move the manifold lower for clearance to the shock tower. This is also the reason for the other manifold bolt pattern, to accommodate the lower manifold position. Some of the early gt heads are more desirable in my opinion since they have a low riser intake port design simular to what was used for the cobra jet head. The one I'm thinking of specifically would be the c6ae-r casting.
You could try the transmission fluid soak to release any stuck rings. The C8AE-H heads are really beefy and they can take hardened seats.
We've talked about that but I don't know if the ring is stuck or broken. I guess it's worth a shot though lol.
Hey guys, try letting your engine turn & see what the leak down test dous with the piston at the bottom. I had a 466 of mine that was a fresh engine (6000 miles on it) but it sat for a long time & I decided to do leak down test & one cylinder leaking past the rings like crazy but sealed up with the piston down. I pulled the head & a bit of rust had developed at the top of the cylinder keeping the rings from sealing there. I just hit it with the wire wheel & it was just fine. Probably could have just ran it & cleared it up. DO NOT SWITCH TO A DAMN WINDSOR! Keep it FE! Let it have its personality! Don't make it a dud with a Windsor! Might as well LS it if you go Windsor!
I own a 67 390, 68 360, rebuilt 83 351W (all 3 of which are C6), 84 302 with overdrive auto. I have also owned 351C, 429 (both c6), 2 other 289s (c4), 5.0 with 5 speed manual. I’m very very familiar with Fords and do all my own work. I’ve pulled, rebuilt, installed, etc.
#1. People worry about gas mileage in their decision, don’t. It’s not going to make a damn bit of difference in a truck. It is the truck body, up 3’ in the air it’s easy to under power a truck and have a limp noodle and still get shit gas mileage. I know. I’ve done it.
#2. Realize how many miles per year the truck gets used. Although gas is unreasonable now, still it takes forever to pay off $3k worth of over drive custom built auto. Yes, truck will be better in every respect, if the overdrive works correctly, but your return on investment takes forever to see when you only drive 4K per year and most of the time are in an econobox. And if your $3k custom overdrive doesn’t perform, and many don’t, you get to try and get your money back and not have a stroke from anger dealing with a moron who is not going to accept blame.
#3. A c6 is as durable as it gets in the automatic transmission world.
#4. Interchange in Fords will bite you quicker than Chevy.
Therefore, my advice is pull the 390. Rebuild to stock and enjoy another 40 years of plenty of torque and 10 mpg. A stock $2500 rebuild will be cheaper, after snowballing interchange costs, than a 351W. Because off the bat, a FE engine won’t bolt to a small block C6 and vise versa. But, C6 is the durable and inexpensive way to go in truck, although the lesser vibration and noise and better economy of overdrive auto on a small block is tempting.
And Swap over can get you into radiators, and water pumps that must pump a certain way, and hoses that might not fit well or even be made anymore. If your truck was a 360 FE, I’d say hunt a 390 while it’s out and build it. If your truck was a 460, I’d say rebuild it.
A lot of your magazine swaps don’t drive theirs enough to find real world problems resulting from deviations. Stuff not clearing or fitting or leaking etc.
even your head swap might not be as simple if the $70 pair isn’t drilled in same spots for brackets, compressors, pulleys etc.
ford does NOT interchange as readily as Chevy. And there are even differences year to year where they moved this or that.
I’ve made lots of mistakes, and learned from a few. Rebuild your 390, have your stock heads reworked or ensure you have same bolt hole locations on $70 pair. Additionally, if it’s a stock 390 someone is doing, they might as well cut exhaust tube below end of manifold, and let machine shop remove your exhaust manifolds. If you try in car with no heat, they’ll snap exhaust bolts in heads. If you’ll leave the manifolds on and engine intact, the machine shop can get on them with torch and save in the long run over drilling out 7 or 8 busted off rusted exhaust bolts in the heads. Or you could get out there with a drill and a week later and $59 worth of carbide bits, you can do it yourself at home. You are way ahead to pay machine shop to remove 390 manifolds.
Prepare for your 390 manifolds to break. They do that. Dorman makes repro that are reasonable and fit perfect. Headers rarely do for truck 390s, but most will want to try those, and it can bite you, unless you’re good at using headers not designed for truck chassis.
Sounds like you've been there, done that, bought the T shirt. Speaking of which, Jeff has some for sale. 😁
Your experience speaks for itself. Powertrain swaps tend to escalate. Some folks tend to like original or original type power trains, so this can be a selling point, as some buyers don't want something that's been swapped in.🤔
To add to this, I run headers on my 390 in an f250 and get 15 mpg. I think a good running 390 with a good application oriented cam will get you good mileage. My example is proof enough for me. Those log manifolds have got to go though. When you get them tuned correctly you may find that you have a pinging problem, this can be corrected by running the industrial application type spark plugs instead of the emissions oriented plugs that were used in the cars and light truck applications. Those plugs place the electrode down into the flame front and when you get these engines running correctly the electrode overheats. The industrial plug moves the electrode up inside the body and away from the flame front.
@@paul65comet31, those log-type exhaust manifolds definitely don't look efficient. I recall getting 14 mpg at some point with my '68 Galaxie back in the 1970s, and it was clear that the stock exhaust system was not great.
I'd stick with the FE but I am biased. FE is all that I know! I did a compression test on my 390 when I first got it 4 years ago. I did it by the book. I.e. Air cleaner off, choke open etc....These are an average of three tests. All low and unbalanced per the service manual. Cam is suppose to be an "RV" grind but know way to confirm what's actually inside. I have always assumed valve train issues. It's cold blooded but runs halfway decent when up to temperature. Going to swap out for a new FE motor in the next few years.
#1 145
#2 130
#3 139
#4 148
#5 168
#6 120
#7 139
#8 156
If your rings are shot the worst thing you can do is a valve job. It will seal up the top end and the blow by will get ridiculous. Just looking at the general condition of the car tells me that once you pull the engine there won't be any stopping place but it will still be more satisfying than putting in a 351. Probably cheaper and easier too.
Stick with fe 390 put exhaust headers so it can breathe. Raise the compression to 9:1 or better and new cam.
Being in the middle of a 390 build for my '65 Galaxie, I can 100% attest to the ridiculous cost of the parts for this thing...if you can find them.
if your going to roll with 390 stockpile harmonic balancers i always wanted a 460 for my 76 highboy could'nt find one
Why not a smoke test on the cylinders.
Keep the 390, in the end it will cost the same or maybe less than the swap will due to the cost of the parts for the conversion. Your time means something too, the conversion will eat up a bunch of your time, if you want to do that for a demonstration then that's different. Go with the 390, tear it down and discover what it needs and fix the problems you find. A good running 390 with headers and a proper cam will give you 15 mpg all day long with correct rear gears that accommodate the engines power rpm range. Those gt heads are not anything special really since they are in fact the same as the c8ea-h head other than the exhaust port being positioned lower Than normal. Actually the exhaust port being as it is isn't optimal on the gt head either, take a closer look at the port and see what your opinion about it is. The pinging problem your friend experienced was likely due to the spark plugs ford used after the emissions crunch. Ford used a "power tip" plug that placed the electrode into the flame front which overheats the plug when the engine is running correctly with good compression and timing. Run the industrial application type plug and the problem will go away. I discovered this after building a 445 from a stroker kit a purchaced from Barry. I set up the engine to run with 9.5:1 compression. Thankfully an old timer from Napa set me straight on the plug problem. These old FE's are way too durable to just toss aside, rebuild it and let it serve for an other 25 to 30 years or longer. Plus you would be throwing away torque by swapping to anything else besides maybe a 460. But the 460 will definitely be a gas hog and that can't be corrected without a head swap.
If you do end up using those gt heads, you need to do some work to them first. Round off the sharp corners located in the combustion chamber and address the sunken valves by up sizing your valves. The exhaust ports can be worked to remove some restrictions due to the lowered port design. There is a "hump" located in the roof of the port that can be removed. One of these humps is actually part of the thermistor port where the California emissions where used on some models, the other hump is just there as a filler for the top of the port in order to work with the gt manifold.
All good stuff Paul thanks a lot
I would pull the engine and tear it down, make decision after good internal inspection. Would make a good engine swap for the restomod part of the channel......
I think what we're going to do is to pull it out and rebuild it. Although a friend of mine has A390 that is a buildable 390 that he will trade me for this one.. Keep in mind that this is not the original engine to the truck so I don't have any "feelings" toward it.
Keep the FE!
Windsor all the way. Still getting over the sticker shock of my 428CJ rebuild
351 is a no brainer. If you are lucky, you may be able to recoup some money from the 390. FE stroker for the galaxie!
, just put new rings in it and insert.way cheaper and will fix the problem
Compression, pcv and valve seals are ok, but the engine still burns a lot of oil, so I think the oil rings are the culprit or could it be something else? The engine has been run hot/overheated once.
I'd like to see that engine torn apart, if the cylinder isn't scored a new set of rings and maybe a set of pistons would fix it "cheaply" as far as the 351w, I have one in a truck with a small cam, edelbrock heads, weiand stealth intake, headers, exhaust etc. It's always gotten 8-10 MPG the 10 years I've had it no matter what I have done to it and my stock ish 390 blows it out of the water in every way possible, so probably not a worthwhile swap considering you need to change everything.
keep the FE. Rebuild it if needed.
Yep. Seems like every 50 years I gotta rebuild my FE's.300K,3 timing chains is all they'll last on factory build.Ive got 3 of them,only one is stock.No windsor for me.Every one I get squirts me from timing chain cover,besides,my 200/6 dyno'd 225 and revs to 5.5K
let's go with the 351....
Maybe as a hail Mary, dump some Berrymans B12 down it's yap first and give it the Italian tune up IN CASE it just has sticky rings.
I agree with those who suggest pulling the heads to check out the cylinder heads before making the decision. If you can re-ring it and not do a lot else you may have a plan. Otherwise build a Windsor. The 390 is cool, the truck is cool, but the combo isn't cool enough to insist on originality.
We're probably gonna stay with the 390 big block. We would have to source engine mounts for a small block 302 And while I do have a set of 351 Windsor DO0E heads I don't have a block to match.
428 cobra jet lol
I'd at least pull the heads and check the valves. If they look good, see what #1 cylinder looks like. Gonna have to pull the engine anyway, so once it's out, just pop out #1 and you'll know what the story is. If broken rings, just replace them all and hone out the cylinders.. No need for a full blown 'rebuild' since it's running 'okay' now so it won't run any worse!
Good luck either way, as the Windsor idea is sound too...
300 straight 6 all day long…
Windsor, Boo!!!!
I agree... Use a Windsor!
You have the space so coyote swap. Like the F100 from the open house.
I don't have the Coyote though lol
@@AutoRestoMod give Cam the nod and you could.....
I’m replacing the 390 with a 300 in my 67 f250. All I pull with it is a tractor twice a year and couple loads of trash or chat
At this point I think we're going to stay with the 390.
@@AutoRestoMod I live to far away from town to afford to drive it with the 390. Everything I’ve found says it uses the save pedestals so it should be an easy swap
I like the 390, for the nostalgia factor, but a 351W would be less expensive (depending on your crazy factor) and parts would be much easier to source. Whatever way you go, I'll be interested in watching the rebuild.
Things to consider are that all the accessories and mounts are different as well as the transmission. Changing the transmission may even cause a driveline length issue to deal with. Dont forget about the exhaust work needed as well. I think it would snowball and the costs would add up. In the end it may be faster, easier and cost the same or maybe less to keep the 390.
I have a 1971 ford f100 that I tried to put a 351w out of ex police car that had some performance parts on it and it was so tight that the right cyl head was almost hitting the firewall and the left header was almost touching the steering box so I had a 1968 ford 302 and a fxm transmission so went that was
That's interesting
Sorry guys!
I would vote for the 351w swap as well.
Build a 393 Windsor and put Fe valve covers on it.
Kinky
A 390 is not expensive dang it. Changing to a Windsor is a Cop Out. Please don’t do it. Just rebuild it. A valve job and a set of f cast pistons and rings and cam that is broken in right. You can likely rering out oil in the bad cylinders and if the compression goes up it’s rings if not it’s valves. GT heads have the two bolts one on each end that are lower than the two top middle.
Honestly, if it was my truck I'd pull the 390, take it apart to see for sure what the issue was and then if it was the rings swap to a 351W or maybe even a 385 if one is available for a reasonable number of Benjamins. However, the 390 might be better for views. I'm no RUclips expert.
$2000 is really cheap, try rebuilding a 390 in oz for anywhere near that.
Oh I get it, that engine was like hands teeth in your neck of the woods.
How about a 351cleveland with a AOD
I really think the 390 will not be that bad, ask an FE expert to help in return for exposure for his business. A Windsor is wrong in so many ways. It is aCop out.
I wouldn't call the Windsor a cop out, more a sized step. We have conferred with some experts on the 390 and most of the consensus is probably a collapsed rin
Spend the money. Fix the FE, and call it a day.
Gonna do that
I'd like to see a semi detailed 351 swap series.
F-E, or not F-E, that is the question!
I think we've answered the question with an FE
If you go with a 351 you will have to come up with a small block transmission it might end up being about the same $. If I was in this situution I would stick with the 390
That's where we're pretty much at in our thought process as well.. Price would be about the same when you have to change out engine mounts and all that kind of stuff. If it were a small block truck it would be way different
GO WITH A CLEVELAND 351!
Well I am a full on lover of Cleveland engines that Cleveland is really not a good choice for torque and towing.
FE for life. Small block ford is cool but big block FE is cooler. Shocked this is even being considered
Well everybody has an opinion lol. Honestly we are gonna stick with the big block 390.
@@AutoRestoMod excellent choice. Nothing cooler then an FE.
Why not an old fashion worktable rebuild? I'd the cylinder walls are not scratched up and it runs as well as it does, just a few updates to the rings and bearings along with new gaskets should do it.
Chasing things down is good but only to a point. And it looks like you are at that point.
Chase 1 fix it, chase the next 1 fix it, until finally you run into 1 that breaks something that can't be fixed.
Heard it run, runs solid, keep it that way.
Agreed, but I think we might want to go in and do a little more to it. I'm still up in the air whether I want to do a bench top type rebuild or take it to a machine shop and follow the process there.
@@AutoRestoMod may have to, but either way a breakdown is coming for it if you re use it. Even if you change to a small block it's coming out. Have several plans and see which way to go. I know there is more to it no mater what, buy the process would be good to see.
Various Pros and Cons,
Availability, Price, FE cool factor
🤔 hmmm
Yeah we're going to build the 390
Diesel swap would be fun... 7.3 Powerstroke or Cummins R2.8 crate engine. 7.3 Godzilla gas engine would be pretty dang awesome too. All are out of my budget, let's spend your money! On a budget, just hone & re-ring and a valve job. I just bought a deluxe Windsor gasket set and I was shocked that it was 250 dollars. Inflation is real :(
FE all day, every day !
It looks like that's exactly where we're headed
Those motors were terrible about burning intake valves.
Well this was bad about breaking rings. Lol
Everyone can throw another engine in, I’d like to see you follow through on this one. Find the culprit, fix it. And test. But it’s like buttholes.. every body has one ☝️ 😋
That is our plan now.
Are M blocks out?
Yeah I don't care for their towing capacity next to the 390
FE or bust!!!
Lol
Take that 390 an turn it into a 410
Rings are cheap. I have pulled them over a ditch and fixed them. Pull the heads and rering it guys? Bull , rebuild it cheap.
FE s aren’t that expensive if you are thrifty.
EcoBoost it
You can turbo an old engine, but you can't EcoBoost it.
go Windsor
I've considered it, but after talking to a few bumpside guys it looks like we're gonna stay with 390 and possibly do a Lentech AOD in it.
Fix the FE, not hard.
You COULD spend money...or just be totally ignorant and "drive it 'til it quits" like the rep at Rent-A-Wreck told my friend to do...(please don't do that).
Big block.
Lol
390 390 390 390